Of course, the McCain campaign is thoroughly justified in taking Biden's statement and running with it, but let's give Biden a chance to defend himself. I certainly think he's being honest and believes, as Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., put it "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." I think it's is patriotic to pay our share for the civilization we get from the government that taxes us. (But let government give us civilization for the price.)
Anyway, here's what Biden is saying today:
"Catholic social doctrine as I was taught it is, you take care of people who need the help the most. Now it'd be different if you could make the case to me that by giving this tax cut to the very wealthy, everybody else was going to be better off. We saw what happened the last eight years when we gave that tax cut."Yes, don't you step down. Stand up! Stand up for American values.
He then explained his statement, first made at a rally in Sarasota, FL, two weeks ago, that asking the wealthiest Americans to accept tax hikes would be patriotic. And he added that the tax rates would still be lower than they were under the Reagan administration.
"I tell you, Democrats,” Biden said, gritting his teeth. "Don't you step down from anybody telling you that we don't value, we don't have American values. … I want this debate about values! I want this debate about American values."
By the way, would you want the government to adhere to Catholic social doctrine?
ADDED: Why does Biden only give 0.06 to 0.31% of his adjusted gross income to charity?
IN THE COMMENTS: campy said...
Theocracy! Wall of separation!Yeah. Good point. Imagine if Sarah Palin backed up one of her political opinions with the assertion that it comported with the doctrine of her church. I will wait and wait for Andrew Sullivan to denounce Biden as a Christianist.
Oh wait, he's a dem. Never mind.
Palladian said....
The government is a lot like the Catholic church: an unaccountable, mystical authority that issues unquestionable edicts from a faraway domed temple ministered over by unelected robed clerics who announce their decisions by occasionally blowing smoke through their chimneys.So maybe the dome in that "Dome" ad was St. Peter's!
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Oh wait, he's a dem. Never mind.
(nto John Lynch)
Yes, Joe, we saw what happened in the past eight years with the tax cut for the most wealthy: they paid more taxes, and more taxes in comparison to others, and more taxes in comparison to prior to the tax cut.
Meanwhile, employment was low, inflation was low, and average incomes in all quintiles of income earners increased.
Of course the ticking time bomb of loans for everyone, bundled and disguised as worthwhile investments, while noticed, was refused deeper examination. Leading congesss critters received healthy donations to keep it that way.
Who's patriotic? and with whose money?
Personally I'm very proud as an American to pay my taxes. I would be just as proud for half as much.
oops. unemployment low.
I am not provided with the level of civilization I would like. Therefore I would like to switch to a better, cheaper civilization provider.
Oh. That's right. This civilization provider is the only one on the market. And if you stop paying them because they fail to provide adequate civilization, they don't simply stop providing you with civilization, they throw you in prison.
It's clearly more patriotic to run up massive deficits, finance the government's operations by selling more bonds to the Chinese (they can't get enough of those suckers) and leave the mess for your successors and your children to deal with.
Biden's Catholic doctrine dabbling is the Christianity of politicians: take what you want, leave the inconvenient bits in the bin.
I do like the idea of the government as a charity. Will we be able to deduct our tax payments as charitable donations?
What other charities have their own nuclear weapons? Wouldn't the Salvation Army's Christmas bell-ringers do much better if they could arrest you for walking by without putting coins in the bucket?
The return on my investment (taxes paid and services recieved) is inadequate and I resent being asked to pay more so my income can be redistributed.
There is nothing preventing people like Biden, Buffett, Gates or any other really wealthy person from contibuting more than their required (by tax return) taxes. Nothing prevents this at all. If you feel that way about it..open your damn check book but keep your hands out of my pocket.
If I could "earmark" where my taxes go I wouldn't be so resentful. But, most of our taxes are just a socialist redistribution of income from the working to fund entitlement programs for those who don't pay taxes.
Joe Biden might have a little more credibility with regard to Catholic social doctrine if his tax returns showed that he actually was taking care of people who need help the most.
Biden must mean a version of 'Catholic' from his home planet. Either that or he learned something that was never actually taught.
"This civilization provider is the only one on the market."
No, the market is right now, in the election. Pick the provider of the civilization you want.
We have a choice of being either Robin Hood or Karl Marx. Did you read/hear the actual text? How the money will be taken from the "haves" and put in the pockets of the "have nots". He didn't say we will be investing in infrastructure, energy, defense, space. Oh, no! Put in the pockets... If you do not "donate" you are unpatriotic. Let's see..last year I paid over $50,000 in fed and state income tax, about 12 times or so the national average. Doesn't that make me patriotic enough? Do I get credit for my eight years of hard work preparing for my profession? Or my time spent in Public Health when I could have been earning much more in private practice? The wolf is always at the door.
Given Senator Bidens ridiculously paltry level of charitable contributions, he should follow Bunny's suggestion: Any citizen can make a donation to the Treasury any time. They will probably even give you a receipt.
Or you can simply over pay your taxes. Biden should be gaining extra patriotism points through these mechanisms.
The government is a lot like the Catholic church: an unaccountable, mystical authority that issues unquestionable edicts from a faraway domed temple ministered over by unelected robed clerics who announce their decisions by occasionally blowing smoke through their chimneys.
Joe Biden might have a little more credibility with regard to Catholic social doctrine if his tax returns showed that he actually was taking care of people who need help the most.
A man who makes 3 times as much as I do and donates as much as I do is going to lecture me on taking care of my fellow man?
Apparently Mr. Biden has never heard of the word "charity", or didn't get the part about giving "your own cape". I would send him back to Catechism. He may need it. And while he's there, a refresher on Constitutional Law as an aside, in a separate venue, of course.
The funniest part about all this, is hearing the most "progressive" of that bunch protest ever so loudly come tax time in January. Every year is the same. Just yesterday, my co-worker and staunch O-supporter was complaining about how much one has to pay in taxes, and "how little you get in return".
Biden is saying the richest must pay more. I wonder how well that's going to go down with the Beverly Hills crowd.
Hmmmm.
If you ask the IRS politely they'll allow you to pay *more* than your share of taxes.
So if paying higher and higher taxes so Biden & Co. can spend it for you is patriotic, then paying more than what is required is even MORE patriotic.
Sooooooo. How much of a tax-patriot is Biden? 'Cause he's certainly a gaffe-machine.
Two questions I think would be fair for reporters to ask Sen. Biden:
1. "Senator, given your statements [fill in quote about abortion and quote about taxes], it appears you are quite comfortable about 'imposing' your Catholic values about tax rates, but not to prevent the death and destruction of unborn human life. How do you defend the moral coherence of that thinking?
2. "Senator, when John McCain criticized Senator Obama's opposition to the surge [fill in quote], Senator Obama and many supporting him objected that McCain was calling Obama's patriotism into question [fill in quote]. When you tie patriotism to paying taxes and to argue for an increase of taxes on some Americans, aren't you diminishing the patriotism of Americans who really hate taxes?"
Maybe Charlie Gibson will ask?
Wingnut on foreign policy. Wingnut on tax policy.
Slow Joe, being a typical Democrat, is clearly a cafeteria Catholic. He picks and chooses what doctrine to follow as the circumstance (read interest group) dictates. Myself, I am just thankful that we don't get all the government we pay for!
I remember the last time they raised taxes on the wealthy. Oh, those were the days. Some feller named Bubba hated rich folk and bragged how he smiled when he wrote that check to Uncle Sam.
He raised those taxes on those evil greedy rich folks. Rich folks like me. Middle Class rich folks. Took the money right out of our paychecks. I remember getting a pay raise that year. It did not even cover the increase in payroll taxes. Bubba was a LIAR!
Joe Biden is lying to us too.
"No, the market is right now, in the election. Pick the provider of the civilization you want."
That's like having the "choice" of electric companies: no matter which you choose, they're both providing the same thing at the same price.
No, the metaphor isn't apt, since electricity is extraordinarily useful and if you don't pay your bill, they don't throw you in jail.
Biden must mean a version of 'Catholic' from his home planet.
Biden conveniently ignores that Catholic social doctrine specifies how individuals should act, not governments. When Jesus said "render unto Caesar," he didn't follow that up with "so the Romans can take care of the poor."
I resent being asked to pay more so my income can be redistributed.
That redistribution thingy is a fallacy and a lie. There is no income or wealth redistribution. If it was true, there would be no poor people.
"Isn't it patriotic to pay taxes?"
That's what the Torries said back in the 1770s.
Some taxes are just; some are unjust.
Here's the problem with people like Obama and Biden.
Sure higher taxes may be justified, but for Obama and Biden, spending restraint is never justified.
They made huge hay in 2006 running against profligate Republicans. Then they turned right round and fed at the trough, as is their wont. Voters know this. Voters aren't as stupid as liberals think they are.
There's huge waste in government, from Defense, to HUD, but it pales in comparison to the fact that entitlements spending is outside the control of the Congress due to COLA's. We won't get spending under controls until entitlements are brought back under budgetary control and restraint.
Both parties are responsible for this, and it is simply because politicians spend too much to buy votes from the public. Period.
This is as old as the Roman Republic. And you know what happened to Rome.
Not a good idea to raise taxes on anyone during a recession. Not a good idea.
It reduces the amount of money that rich people spend, and that spent money keeps US factories open where middle class people work. If Mr. Richpants doesn't buy a new yacht, the guys and gals in the shipyard in Maine lose their jobs. Remember Bush 1? When he raised taxes, the New England shipyard laid off workers....
Either the rich will stop spending or they will spend/invest/hide their money in other countries.
Here's an August NYT article about how both candidates are desperately trying to moderate their tax policies because of the looming storm.
The article singles out Sen. Obama for gutting his own Social Security program and totally weaseling around on where he would fix cap gains taxes.
I have a suggestion for a slogan suitable for Obama/Biden's Catholic tax policy:
Render unto Cæsar.
If the politicans were patriotic they could do the following:
1.) Elected officials get zero tax deductions.
2.) All campaign funds are no longer tax exempt.
3.) Cut their salaries by one third. They don't work full time anyway.
4.) Term limits. Then we could eliminate their pensions.
Let them feel the pain first. Let them be patriotic and moral.
Evidently Senator Biden is questioning my patriotism if I prefer to keep more of my earned income. Actually I don’t mind paying taxes and would not object to paying more provided Senator Biden could provide assurances it would be used for constructive purposes (infrastructure, reducing the national debt, tech development, etc) as opposed to merely a transfer of wealth. I take exception to being asked to shoulder a heavier tax burden because I happen to be in the >$250,000 range whereas someone who is $250,000< will get money back from the Federal Government or have a reduced tax burden. I don’t receive any additional benefit from paying more taxes than the individual who pays none other than for Senator Biden to pat me on the shoulder and tell me that I’m a great American.
Frankly, I think it’s high time that our tax structure is retooled to start requiring everyone pay at least a nominal tax based upon their income stream. The theme that we’re all Americans and have a vested interest in our nation should also mean that everyone, regardless of income start being asked to contribute to the future of this country rather than looking at the $250K and up earners to do all the heavy lifting. My income is not guaranteed and requires my ability to retain AND procure additional clients. I think far too many people think high income earners sit behind mahogany desks smoking cigars while we count our money. Quite to the contrary, it took me the better part of fifteen years and more hours than I care to think about to reach the level of income I am at only to be told that I have to part with an even larger chunk of what I earned so others don’t have to. Excuse me if I take exception to Senator Biden’s revised definition of being patriotic.
There is not a word of Catholic social doctrine that even implies we should take care of the poor by stealing from others so we can give their money away. And if I were Joe Biden, I'd stay far away from saying anything about Catholic doctrine, considering the hot water he and Pelosi have gotten themselves into with the Church.
Nothing is more unchristian than forcing someone to act like a Christian.
Huh, there's two of me. Hi, other John Lynch with the second comment.
The government is not the country. We have a country with a government. It's quite possible to love America while not being too fond of the government. In fact, this is the tack a lot of liberal critics take.
It's perfectly defensible to believe that money will be better used, for the good of the country, by its citizens rather than the government.
It was only a matter of time before Sen Biden's foot and mouth disease roared back out of remission
"Catholic social doctrine as I was taught it is, you take care of people who need the help the most.
FDR started the massive social programs. LBJ made put them on steroids. No one was helped. No one benefitted. The poor stayed in poverty. The programs were massive failures.
The American people deserved a tax refund for all those years of financing failure.
Ann said: "No, the market is right now, in the election. Pick the provider of the civilization you want."
She's right and the choice is not like Pepsi v. Coke this time.
Joe Biden is an ignorant ass. He is no more Catholic than I am a Hari Krishna. I don't care where he attends services: he doesn't have the first clue about Catholic doctrine, and he only embarrasses himself whenever he opens his trap about a faith which he evidently doesn't practice (or else he'd have a clue about it).
He has already been outright barred from receiving communium by 2 bishops and earned himself a sharp rebuke from the Council of Bishops for lying about Catholic doctrine.
As a Catholic myself, it's offensive when he tells lie after lie about what my faith teaches in order to defend his out of touch politics. Maybe if he climbed out of MBNA's pocket and got himself to church once in a while, he'd at least have the opportunity to go to confession.
Ah, America -- the country of freedom, of liberty, of hot dogs. The country where you can make $200,000 a year and still call yourself middle class.
"The country where you can make $200,000 a year and still call yourself middle class."
You obviously don't live in New York.
The kulaks were the most productive farmers in the Soviet Union. As frequently happens with productive members of society they became wealthy. The Bolshies starved two generations of them and their families to death in order to have a more equitable distribution of wealth. Sadly the poor people who depended on the grain production of these farmers also had to starve to death. But the important thing to remember is that the wealth was distributed equitably.....The Jews of Germany were among the most productive members of that society. The National Socialists expropriated first the property and then the lives of these citizens. The Germans were thus able to enjoy living in a society where no ethnic group was wealthier than another. ....The experience was repeated in South Vietnam where the ethnic Chinese were the merchant class and were expelled because of their wealth and success. In Uganda it was the Asians; in Zimababwe the white farmers.....In America we have learned from the example of these countries. It is not necessary to starve, murder, or exile the most productive members of our society. It is only necessary to tax them out of existence. Stand up for America all you paraplegics.
(nto John Lynch)
John Lynch: I try to remember to sign my posts with Not The Other John Lynch, having seen you around these parts occasionally.
Well let me defend Biden on one point and bash him on the other...
Taxes as being Patriotic-
Biden explaining that asking the wealthiest Americans to accept tax hikes would be patriotic -
"It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut."
OK this is going back to the chorus started by Chris Matthews- that Americans were not asked to sacrifice during the GWOT-that instead they were told to go shopping.
This is not exactly true but it's been repeated enough times that it's accepted as fact.
Being a member of the active duty military community at the time I never really got this-
The American public has to be told how to pitch in, how to sacrifice, how to be patriotic?
Americans can't be self-starters in that area?
The flippin' government has to do that for you too!?
Well and how, the Mommy party Democrats have found away for you to feel the pain and share the "wealth"-
TAXES
That's so nouveau I'm speechless...well not really.
As to the rich saying that they are going to pay more taxes...
Please! Who the hell is Joe Biden kidding-it just means they'll pay their tax attorneys more to be extra creative or send more money overseas.
You guys are thinking Biden is talking about charity? He's talking about tax relief to help those who are barely scraping by, not the people who will still be living comfortably after paying a bit more tax. And remember, that includes Biden.
The padres here should recall Luke 12:48 "And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required."
As far as charity goes, people earning more than $150K a year give , on average, a whopping 2.2% of their income to charity.
If only Biden would fully embrace his Catholicism, like the Knights of Columbus leader is calling him to do in many major newspapers today.
Who the hell is Joe Biden kidding-it just means they'll pay their tax attorneys more to be extra creative or send more money overseas.
In other words, people who are unashamed about their lack of patriotism; people who enjoy the benefits of living in the US but who don't want to pay their fair share of the costs. They should just get the hell out.
America: love it or leave it.
Since taxes were much lower when Holmes said that, taxes today are evidently the price we pay for civilization plus something else. (Foreign wars are only a fraction of the difference.) We do have the option of lowering the price, cutting out the something else, and still having civilization.
I know Catholics. I went to parochial schools with a lot of Catholics. Catholics are friends of mine. You Joe Biden are no Catholic.
former law student said...
[...]
The padres here should recall Luke 12:48 "And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required."
[...]
10:09 AM
By G-d, not the governement.
(nto John Lynch)
Discussing the wealthy has always bugged me:
1) Are you wealthy because your income is high? Not because you have $5,000,000 in the bank? Income is not the same as wealth.
2) Many of the higher income people are actually holders of subchapter S corporations (small business, farms, etc.) or LLPs (limited partnerships; where corporate income is reported, and taxed as personal income. It's hardly fair to characterize someone as wealthy and "deserving" of high taxation when they are a business and therefore not on the same scale of operations as an individual. $500,000 may be a paltry income for a business, maybe even barely surviving, yet they will be taxed at the highest rates. Always looks good to wipe out a small business due to taxation. Helps everyone I think.
Carry on.
Look Biden does know something about the Catholic guilt trip.
You gotta give him that-he's an old time Democrat.
And you know what happened to Rome.
Yeah, it fell — 1,500 years later.
Hmmmmm.....is it patriotic.....hmmmmm. I will ask Ms Pelosi to ask Mr Rangel, Chairman of Way and Means, on what my answer ought to be.
Hmmmmm......
He's talking about tax relief to help those who are barely scraping by, not the people who will still be living comfortably after paying a bit more tax. And remember, that includes Biden.
Define what 'a bit more' is please. Again, please excuse me for not wanting to share in the burden for those who are barely scraping by. The fact that I will still be living comfortably is of little consolation when I have to consider how much additional time and effort I'll need to exert in order to maintain my desired lifestyle while at the same time make life easier on someone else.
I'm curious if you would cheerfully accept a five or ten percent cut in pay in order to give a lesser paid co-worker a raise because times are tough?
You guys are thinking Biden is talking about charity? He's talking about tax relief to help those who are barely scraping by, not the people who will still be living comfortably after paying a bit more tax. And remember, that includes Biden.
Tax relief is lowering taxes on everyone and cutting spending. He is talking about raising taxes and spending more to "help" people. History has shown that to be a massive failure.
He is not talking about reforming and restructuring the tax system. Can't piss off those lobbyists from the CPAs, tax lawyers, and the tax preparers can he?
Trooper! How 'bout a warning next time! LOL and clapping.
I wonder if some major bishop or Cardinal will come out with a statement attacking Joe Biden's Catholicism?
Peter V. Bella: Didn't you see this Archbishop's Chaput-down?
I have no problem with Obama's tax plans. They will cut my taxes. I would say they'd cut the taxes of most of the people reading here. Unless there are millionaires here that I don't know about -- possible.
Obama has to do a better job of telling exactly what his tax cuts will do for the middle class. At the moment, all you hear is McCain's flawed interpretation of it. (Alternative last sentence: all you hear are McCain's lies about it).
I'm curious to hear how Senator McCain is planning to PAY for all the things the Senate is passing. Bailouts for Wall Street, the Highway Fund, Medicare, ...
former law student,
I am curious. Do you take all of your deductions, which lowers your tax bill? Or are you a patriot and pay one hundred percent of the taxes owed on your income?
Ruth Anne Adams said...
Peter V. Bella: Didn't you see this Archbishop's Chaput-down?
That was then. Every time he puts both feet in is mouth, some prelate should be lying in wait to choke him with rosary beads.
Barstool Economics
For a basic economic explanation of the ramifications of the misguided tax the rich and redistribute to the less rich, you should read the above link.
I would post the entire thing here but is is rather long.
As it says at the end: "For those who understand, no explanation is needed.For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible."
Patriotism is love for the nation, not the state. The state is necessary as are the taxes that must be paid to the state. But both should be kept (and obviously aren't kept) as limited as possible.
Doesn't this overt appeal to Catholic teaching make Biden a "christianist" and a "theocrat"? Better get Sullivan on the case.
Lest we forget: Althouse on the Alternative Minimum Tax. Here, too, asking whether she still loves the new Democratic Congress.
Peter V. Bella: Charity is warranted. Rosary-choking falls squarely outside of the realm of charity.
integrity,
I hate to ask, but what in the hell are you babbling about?
If you don't support taxes you don't support the military.
Republicans aren't patriotic.
citizens serve the military with money, citizens should always serve at the behest of the military.
.
Yeah. Good point. Imagine if Sarah Palin backed up one of her political opinions with the assertion that it comported with the doctrine of her church. I will wait and wait for Andrew Sullivan to denounce Biden as a Christianist.
"Christianist" is a hate term.
I don't call Andrew Sullivan a "self-hating Catholic", or a "heterophobe", or a "Christianphobe". I don't even identify him as "homosexual Andrew Sullivan". Andrew would probably be offended by all of those.
We use unwanted terms to define each other when we are afraid that other people might actually take the time to consider our opponent's arguments
I call those who consider themselves "pro-choice" exactly that - pro-choice. I don't label pro-choicers "pro-aborts". I gladly accept the label "pro-life", but I amdo not like shutting off converation or debate by being called "anti-women".
I have been called both "homophobic" AND "fag lover". So I can't win for losing on that one.
My point: If we're so civilizes in our debate in this enlightened age, why do we need to throw hate terms at each other?
.
Dust Bunny Queen,
You rock!
""Isn't it patriotic to pay taxes?""
Biden needs to read a little American history. Something about Boston, and tea. Close to where he's currently a Senator, I think.
If people knew that their government was being wise with the money they have to confiscatorilly hand over, this might be as big of an issue it's made out to be time and time again. But the shambles that the federal government is today just makes a mockery of the vast contribution the American people make in how the government uses the life force of the American people as nothing more than an instrument to their own self-interests.
We stare at a 3 trillion dollar budget, over 55% of which is entitlements and we wonder what went wrong, while windbags like Mr. Barely and his sidekick Clickety-Click Polydent Man forward the ridiculous canard that higher taxation equals patriotism as function of their overreaching plan for wealth redistribution.
Pogo said...
Biden must mean a version of 'Catholic' from his home planet. Either that or he learned something that was never actually taught.
Biden's Catholicism is the same one Pelosi belongs too. It's new, it's fresh, so much so the Church fearing competition from these two intellectual stalwarts in rewriting their doctrine had to use their monopoly powers and shut them down.
Senator Biden, Mr. Trump on line 3.
I'll stand up and say that income taxes are absurdly low. At least mine are. House. Three kids.
But payroll taxes are absurdly high.
I don't have any problem with a progressive income tax, if coupled with reform on the others.
Except Biden and Obama would leave the most onerous tax on the working poor in place (even as the date in which it no longer pays for promised benefits creeps closer).
Speaking of being "patriotic"...
The Government Accountability Office study reported that two-thirds of American corporations didn’t pay any taxes in 2005.
Why, in all of the ads, photos, and personal appearances does Joe Biden look like a walking corpse?
The padres here should recall Luke 12:48 "And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required."
The blind spot in today's liberal thinking is the presumption that if you are supposed to be generous and take care of the poor, then, eo ipso, the only possible way to do that is through the Federal Government.
But using the Federal Government is almost certainly the most inefficient way to take care of the poor.
By contrast, the Mormons fast world wide on each first Sunday of the Month, and donate the cost of those skipped meals (and more if affluent) to the Church for the poor.
Then the poor are able to go to their local congregation lay-leader who gives the poor or less forntunate what they need. There is not central administration.
Donations are deposited; payments are made. The whole program costs the price of the bank checks.
It is tempting to think that just the cost of 24 hours worth of meals skipped is not enough to make a difference, but it is.
It turns out that the ratio of people that have to those in need is such that the cost of 24 hours of food skipped by the payers is sufficient to take care of all the needs of the poor in the Mormon church.
And the whole program didn't require any pontificating Senators to set up, run, or take credit for.
DOYLE:
Wingnut on foreign policy. Wingnut on tax policy.
Does this refer to Biden or Althouse?
Michael said...
Speaking of being "patriotic"...
The Government Accountability Office study reported that two-thirds of American corporations didn’t pay any taxes in 2005.
When or if you get a tax refund, do you do the patriotic thing and sign the check over to the government?
Seriously, what Catholic school did Biden attend?
St. Karl Marx of the Seven Confiscations?
Dust Bunny Queen said...
Barstool Economics
For a basic economic explanation of the ramifications of the misguided tax the rich and redistribute to the less rich, you should read the above link.
I would post the entire thing here but is is rather long.
As it says at the end: "For those who understand, no explanation is needed.For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible."
10:29 AM
I would bet anything that I have a lot more money than you, and after this bailout I wanna see people like you screwed. You even have a disgusting name.
We need laws to make sure you do NOT have health insurance and hopefully doctors and hospitals will screw you out of every dime they can. I have got such a hard-on for folks like you, it's great.
The war just got stepped up by scumbag Paulson and the commie republiscum.
Wealthy libs unite, we've got lots of middle class and lower class republiscum to screw over, and hard. Charge them through the nose for EVERYTHING, and duplicate the billing when possible. Get 'em!
And the whole program didn't require any pontificating Senators to set up, run, or take credit for.
Those pesky pontificating Senators will probably try to shut it down. Only the guvmint can be allowed to do that.
most of our taxes are just a socialist redistribution of income from the working to fund entitlement programs for those who don't pay taxes.
Only some of it is for those who don't pay taxes. The vast majority of it goes to our "employees": lazy, bureaucratic drones biding their time til their fat pension kicks in.
integrity = 87 monkeys typing
integrity,
Do you pay one hundred percent of your tax bill? Do you take all those nice deductions that decrease it by half? Do you do the patriotic thing and sign over your refund check to the government?
Or are you one of those leftard trust fund babies who like to spout off at the mouth and not say anything worthwhile.
How many here, under Obama's tax plan...
Hiking several taxes on people making more than $250,000, including the amount they pay on capital gains...
....would pay MORE income taxes?
I would bet less that 1%.
Based on his plan, 95 percent-plus of the American population that earns less than $250,000 would see either no increase in their taxes or a lowering of their taxes.
What a hypocrite!
Avoid tax (legally), give more to the poor yourselves.
"I have got such a hard-on for folks like you, it's great."
Um, eww?
Based on his plan, 95 percent-plus of the American population ...would see either no increase ...or a lowering of their taxes.
Destroying the rich has never made the poor better off. But it has been tried many times.
Envy is a powerful drug; the opiate of the asses.
Patriotism my ass.
Nobody comes looking to throw you in prison if you don't watch the fireworks on the Fourth of July.
That he honestly believes this crap is why Democrats never seem to be speaking my language and why I just don't trust them.
If you want to argue that it's a measure of patriotism, make a voluntary "Patriot" tax. I dare ya. With all the proceeds we might just be able to afford to buy JoeBi a hair club for men membership. But only just.
I'm going to become a socialist just so I don't give "integrity" a hard-on anymore.
$500,000 may be a paltry income for a business, maybe even barely surviving, yet they will be taxed at the highest rates.
Have you ever filled out a Schedule C? Business owners are taxed based on their profits, not their gross income.
Raising taxes to "help people"? Tax relief is "cutting spending"? Somebody has to pay for Mr. Bush's war and Mr. Bush's corporate bailouts. Companies like AIG, which moved operations offshore to avoid paying US taxes, are not looking to the governments of tax havens Bermuda and Barbados to bail them out.
Further, somebody has to pay for, for example, all the bridges that are fifty and sixty years old and more that need to be replaced. A visionary leader like Eisenhower could create the Interstate Highway System, but such men are rare.
""Isn't it patriotic to pay taxes?""
Biden needs to read a little American history. Something about Boston, and tea.
You may have forgotten; the cry at the time was "No taxation without representation!" Since 1789 we have had representation, and guys who can hire lobbyists have more representation than most.
If only Biden would fully embrace his Catholicism
Are you familiar with the phrase "straining out gnats and swallowing camels"? The Gospels are replete with commands to help "the least of our brethren," while I have not been able to find a single word opposing abortion.
The right to abortion has been enshrined in US law for decades, and is not likely to be uprooted soon. Although neither Scriptural nor Catholic, the Serenity Prayer is consistent with Biden's position: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
Pogo: Seriously, at least for high school, Archmere Academy (Catholic college prep) in Claymont, Delaware, where he also sent his sons. (I don't know about the daughter.)
Biden: “How many small businessmen are making one million, four hundred thousand–average in the top 1 percent. Give me a break. I remind my friend, John McCain, what he said–when Bush called for war and tax cuts–he said, it was immoral, immoral, to take a nation to war and not have anybody pay for it."
Well, fellow "patiots"...is what McCain said...that "war and tax cuts"...was "immoral, immoral, to take a nation to war and not have anybody pay for it..."??
The large majority of corporations are small closely held entities that file tax returns that either operate at a loss or are subchapter S corporations which are taxed on the personal return and thus do not pay corporate taxes. The losses on some of these corporations might be generated by "zeroing out" the return by paying officer/owner/stockholder compensation, thus once again taxing the income on the personal returns of the owners/stockholders. Thus the corporation pays "no corporate" taxes but the income tax is taxed at the personal income tax rate.
But please do not let the facts get in the way of your arguments.
Or are you (integrity) one of those leftard trust fund babies who like to spout off at the mouth and not say anything worthwhile
He's just mad because he doesn't understand basic math or economics.
"He's just mad because he doesn't understand basic math or economics."
And because his keyboard is constantly sticky.
Joe Biden eats meat on Fridays.
VariableSpin said..."That he honestly believes this crap is why Democrats never seem to be speaking my language and why I just don't trust them."
Unless you're one of those in the top 1% of America's citizenry, maybe it's the Republicans you should be holding in such low regard...or maybe doing a little research before making such silly comments?:
By LARRY M. BARTELS
Published: April 27, 2008
The Census Bureau has tracked the economic fortunes of affluent, middle-class and poor American families for six decades.
According to my analysis, these tabulations reveal a wide partisan disparity in income growth. The real incomes of middle-class families grew more than twice as fast under Democratic presidents as they did under Republican presidents.
Even more remarkable, the real incomes of working-poor families (at the 20th percentile of the income distribution) grew six times as fast when Democrats held the White House.
Only the incomes of affluent families were relatively impervious to partisan politics, growing robustly under Democrats and Republicans alike.
The cumulative effect of these partisan differences is enormous. If the pattern of income growth under postwar Republican presidents had matched the pattern under Democrats, incomes would be more equal now than they were in 1950 — a far cry from the contemporary reality of what some observers are calling a New Gilded Age.
Bunny says: "He's just mad because he doesn't understand basic math or economics."
Once Again: "According to my analysis, these tabulations reveal a wide partisan disparity in income growth. The real incomes of middle-class families grew more than twice as fast under Democratic presidents as they did under Republican presidents.
Even more remarkable, the real incomes of working-poor families (at the 20th percentile of the income distribution) grew six times as fast when Democrats held the White House."
I have no problem with Obama's tax plans. They will cut my taxes. I would say they'd cut the taxes of most of the people reading here. Unless there are millionaires here that I don't know about -- possible.
Well, most people here don't have a "stick it to the rich(er) guy" mentality. And furthermore, not seeing good returns on their tax investments, why should they demand that ANYONE feed the system even more of their hard-earned income?
I'm curious to hear how Senator McCain is planning to PAY for all the things the Senate is passing. Bailouts for Wall Street, the Highway Fund, Medicare, ...
Good point. The republicans have totally screwed the pooch on spending.
Destroying the rich has never made the poor better off. But it has been tried many times.
Pogo reveals his unexpected drama queen side. The really rich could live anywhere, yet they prefer to live in the U.S.
Pogo, please list the countries where you would be personally better off than in the U.S.
Put your <3 in America or get your uu out.
also: if you have kids and are facing college tuition, $250,000/yr. is not so very rich anymore.
pogo @11:04, well then that's what McCain should be saying, rather than lying about Obama's plan.
If McCain did not lie, then he would be giving us Straight Talk.
(Can't figure out how to add the trademark thingy).
Last year my total taxes paid was 50% of my gross income. Those taxes includes federal, social security, medicare, state, county, city, technical college district, local school district,sales taxes and others.
I had to provide housing, medical insurance/care, food, clothing, retirement savings, college saving, family entertainment and all other general living expenses out with only half of what I earned.
I pay enough damn taxes, and frankly, if Joe Biden wants to call me unpatriotic because I haven't sacrificed enough of my income to support a bloated government that can't manage the money it has, he can flat stuff it.
"please list the countries where you would be personally better off than in the U.S."
Ireland (The Celtic Tiger economy) while currently experiencing a slow down that reflects the global economic slowdown, they still have low corporate taxes, low unemployment and great beer and whisky.
:-)
"...the cry at the time was "No taxation without representation!" Since 1789 we have had representation, and guys who can hire lobbyists have more representation than most."
In other words, once again we have taxation without representation. Take Medicare and Social Security. No representation on those taxes. They exist now outside of any influence of Congress whatsoever, except to decide how much to increase it. It is nearly an NGO, determining its own tax rate. They say 'jump!' and we must reply 'how high?'
The Gospels are replete with commands to help "the least of our brethren"
I'll just guess that J. the Christ hisself wasn't speaking about bureaucrats and administrations here, but the poor. More money goes to the former than the latter. More, Jesus never ever even once did the marxist community organizer proto-communist thingy and demand state-coerced egalitarianism.
also: if you have kids and are facing college tuition, $250,000/yr. is not so very rich anymore.
I sympathize with that. The cost of college has been far outpacing inflation, principally to keep professors like Ann in the lap of luxury (but notice she hasn't been posting any luxurious latte pics lately).
Under Clinton, Congress instituted the Hope and the Lifelong Learning credits for people paying for higher education. But they go only so far. They at least should be raised to keep pace with tuition increases
DBQ. Agree about ireland.
I am looking into making the move myself when/if we go all national health care here.
It's pretty clear the US doesn't like physicians very much. I'll not stain the national rug much longer.
Joe Biden roots for six different football teams.
Not one of them is Notre Dame.
"They at least should be raised to keep pace with tuition increases"
Expect the college tuition bubble to burst exactly like the housing bubble, and very soon.
knox, why are you defending the wealthy?
Do you have any idea how much they write off against any and all losses via investments?
As an example: People constantly yap about how baseball team owners have to pay huge salaries to moderately talented players (even though there only about 1,500 people on the planet who are good enough to play pro ball)...but they never mention the fact that baseball team owners write off any losses they incur with their teams against the profits from any other business they own.
Steinbrenner has made billions of dollars in his ship building business, and balances any losses on the books of the Yankees by writing the losses off against the profits from the ship building.
The wealthy know how to hold on to as much of their money as they can and even if we raise taxes on them, they'll be just fine.
*And by the way: Ronald Reagan raised taxes 6 times during his tenure in the White House.
Pogo said:
"Integrity = 87 monkeys typing".
LOL
Troper said:
"Biden eats meat on Friday".
Another LOL.
Michael_H makes a great point that is often obscured in rhetoric about taxation--the total tax burden on americans is consdierably higher that the federal tax rate. and does indeed approximate 50% when all taxes and govt imposed fees are added in. that is more than enough.
Trooper, do you have some kind of Catholic thing going here?
Eating fish on Fridays...Notre Dame?
Do you also support the priests, the archdiocese and even the Pope who have spent years defending their special brand of pedophile?
knox, why are you defending the wealthy?
Do you understand the difference between wealth and income? Income is a way to build wealth but it does not directly equal wealth. If you live in San Francisco and are making $200,000 a year, believe me you are not wealthy. Most of your income, the 40% you are allowed to keep, is spent just on rent and living expenses.
Do you have any idea how much they write off against any and all losses via investments
Are you a complete economic moron? Wait.....rhetorical question.
Since the Bible and the church are obviously mistaken in telling us where we came from, how can we trust them to tell us where we are going?
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
I didn't write these, but I agree with them.
Michael_H: Sounds like you need to hire a new accountant.
If you're making over $250,000 and paying out 50% in taxes (overall or not), you need help.
MadisonMan: agreed.
But remember, I'm not pro-McCain, I'm anti-Obama. If I'm going to be skewered with the socialist stick regardless, I'll choose the shorter one.
Once again, some facts of life. The New York Yankees are a limited partnership who can only deduct losses to the extent that the partners have “basis.” This basis is the original amount paid for the investment (9 million dollars in the 1970’s) plus any accumulated earnings and profits that the partners would have previously paid tax on in prior years. So if the partners have a “loss” and no basis, they can not deduct the losses against their other income. Thus the claim that the owners of the Yankees will deduct any losses against other income to pay no taxes is in fact to coin a phrase a lie.
But please do not let the facts get in the way of your arguments.
Michael wrote: If the pattern of income growth under postwar Republican presidents had matched the pattern under Democrats, incomes would be more equal now than they were in 1950
Why be some modest in your projection. If the pattern of income growth under all presidents had been equal to Truman's first quarter of 1950 we would all have our own trust funds.
Michael,
The statement demonstrates his underlying philosophy. That appears to be that there is no moral difference between charity and taxation. Moreover, that no good will come to the country unless the government is in charge of the effort.
This is quite clearly demonstrated by the records of his charitable giving.
But whatever. Clearly the prevailing attitude on the left isn't so much that paying taxes is patriotic but that forcing others to is. Party on!
Joe Biden thinks the Holy Ghost rides a motorcycle and wears a leather jacket.
dbq inspired me to find the Forbes Misery Index. michael_h should move out of NYC immediately. Other parts of the US are quite reasonable, with a lower tax burden than Ireland. Note that local property taxes are not counted.
http://www.forbes.com/global/
2008/0407/060_2.html
Cut and paste the two halves of the URL together.
As far as Ireland goes, they have had a National Health Insurance system since their founding.
Bunny, roughly one in 50 households will take in more than $250,000 next year.
Unless they make more, Obama's plan does not increase their taxes at all.
I realize $250,000 is not the same in San Francisco as it is in Kansas City, KS, but those who live in San Francisco don';t have to live there, do they?
Former Law Students wrote: The really rich could live anywhere, yet they prefer to live in the U.S.
Boris Becker tried Monaco. Just offering a counter example.
Henry: The information came from the Census Department in 2007.
If you don't accept it, that's up to you.
A person who earns $250,000 in a high tax state like New York, New Jersey, California or Massachusetts could easily end up paying 50% or even more in taxes. When you add in the Federal, State, City, FICA, and Medicare payments you can easily end up paying more the 50% of you taxable income in various taxes. This does not take into account any real estate, excise or personal property taxes which might also accrue. So to say that someone who is forced to pay 50% in taxes needs a new accountant is to coin a phrase, a lie.
But please do not let the facts get in the way of your arguments.
MadisonMan I have no problem with Obama's tax plans. They will cut my taxes. I would say they'd cut the taxes of most of the people reading here. Unless there are millionaires here that I don't know about -- possible.
Is making $250,000 a year the new millionaire?
I'm curious to hear how Senator McCain is planning to PAY for all the things the Senate is passing. Bailouts for Wall Street, the Highway Fund, Medicare, ...
I'm not quite certain how you reconcile your first paragraph with your last one considering Senator Obama has proposed a host of spending initiatives of his own.
Quite frankly, at this point I don't see how either candidate can discuss a tax cut for anyone with a straight face.
"As far as Ireland goes, they have had a National Health Insurance system since their founding.
"
I didn't say I was going to practice medicine.
VariableSpin: I've never met a Democrat or a libera in my life that had a "prevailing attitude"
of wanting to make others pay more taxes...only their fair share.
If you have a problem with that philosophy, you indeed would be considered unpatriotic by many on the right.
Right now, according to The Government Accountability Office, two-thirds of American corporations didn’t pay any taxes in 2005.
Are you okay with that?
I didn't say I was going to practice medicine.
Ah, you meant the US literally did not like physicians much, not that practicing medicine was economically painful here.
It's pretty clear the US doesn't like physicians very much. I'll not stain the national rug much longer.
Ireland (The Celtic Tiger economy) while currently experiencing a slow down that reflects the global economic slowdown, they still have low corporate taxes, low unemployment and great beer and whisky.
I just love you clueless people who whine about high taxes and socialism here and then turn around and imagine the bliss of living in Ireland.
"Socialized" medicine--you bet
Income taxes--20% on incomes less than 34,000 EUR, 41% over 34,000 EUR.
20% on capital gains.
Remind me again what the top marginal rate and capital gains rate in the U.S. is?
Oh yeah, and like most of Europe, the VAT (basically a sales tax, except it is also paid at the wholesale level by businesses) is 21%.
walter neff: You left out deductions and write-offs.
Anybody who makes $250,000 and shells out 50% of it in taxes is a fool.
Walter, why not just stop making so much money...you know, so you don't have to pay so many taxes?
I've lived between California for many years, my wife and I make a very good living and we've never paid 50% of our overall income in taxes.
I suggest you find yourself a new accountant.
For decades here in Canuckistan we have paid substantially higher income taxes than all of you in America.
And this made me more patriotic? Giving more endless money to an inefficient, sometimes corrupt organization that wasted it on more endless, often useless, programs made me more patriotic?
Sorry, but I beg to disagree. Vehemently!
Michael stated The Government Accountability Office study reported that two-thirds of American corporations didn’t pay any taxes in 2005.
Well that is a shocking figure although upon closer inspection it really isn't. Business don't pay taxes on revenues, only profits. You may wish to examine this in order to be provide a more accurate if not sensational comment.
Apologies but my linking skills aren't that great.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aJHKNW1lro9Y&refer=columnist_hassett
Speaking of patriotism - I live in Massachusetts. We have a special box to tick off on our state tax returns should we wish to contribute over and above the current 5.3%.
There is also a measure (Question 1) on the ballot to eliminate the state income tax, since the liars in our corrupt legislature never followed through on their promise to drop the rate to 5%. As you might imagine, the government unions are screaming that the state will be a blasted heath of starving children and homeless cripples should such a mean-spirited measure pass.
But back to the option to pay more in taxes. The latest data I have is from 2006: of the 1,540,000 returns filed, only 425 people - with an average income of $20,000 -opted for the higher rate.
When patriots like John Kerry and Ted Kennedy put their money where their mouths air, then Senator Hair Plugs can lecture me about patriotism.
Oh, Peter - re integrity's 10.21 comment, he's cheering Sandra Bernhard warning Gov. Palin that she shouldn't set foot in Manhattan, or else some of her "big black brothers" would gang-rape her.
Just more civility from our friends on the left.
Sorry - where their mouths ARE.
PIMF.
"I suggest you find yourself a new accountant."
According to Sen. Biden, you are unpatriotic.
"Ah, you meant the US literally did not like "
Huh? That's indecipherable.
Since we are going to nationalize 14% of the economy, we'll be at the 50%ers like England and France, where half of the GDP is consumed by the state.
That will require we turn into an EU nation, which is what Obama voters seem to want. Fine. I'll go to a country where there are still are some remaining testicles and neurons, however few.
Michael said...
Trooper, do you have some kind of Catholic thing going here?
Eating fish on Fridays...Notre Dame?
Trooper is pointing out the hypocrisy of Joe Biden. Are you anti-Catholic?
If you're making over $250,000 and paying out 50% in taxes (overall or not), you need help.
Hold on there. You want more taxes, yet you think that tax avoidance is intelligent and paying more than the fair share is dumb? Anybody who makes $250,000 and shells out 50% of it in taxes is a fool.
Again, I bet you take each and every deduction and do not give anything back to good old benevolent Uncle Sam. You people really want it both ways. You want higher taxes, as long as you can avoid paying higher taxes.
There is a word for that. Let me see. Oh, yeah, hypocrisy.
Once again it is 50% of your taxable income after allowable deductions. Any one with even an elementary grasp of the subject would understand this fact. Allowable deductions are tax “loopholes” that the government places in the tax code to encourage certain behavior. The charitable deductions to encourage charitable giving. The mortgage interest deduction to encourage home ownership. The investment interest deduction to encourage investment. The current trend is not to raise the tax rates but to take away these deductions to make your base taxable income higher and to allow them to take more. At one time there was a specific calculation that ensured that your federal tax liability could not be more the 50% of your earned income (salaries and wages). This was changed in the tax reform act of 1986 in which they eliminated a lot of deductions and set up the categories of active, passive and investment income. I do remember in the early seventies where the federal tax rate could approach 70%of your earned income. To discuss tax matters you should have at least a rudimentary knowledge of the tax code.
But please do not let the facts get in the way of your arguments.
Joe Biden thinks a venial sin is when you have a varicose vein.
Why does Biden only give 0.06 to 0.31% of his adjusted gross income to charity?
Come on Althouse, I've explained this to you before. We don't know how much Biden gives to charity. We only know the portion of his charitable giving that is reported on his income tax forms.
Walter is a sly dog.
knox, why are you defending the wealthy?
I wouldn't say I "defend" them as much as I just don't have a knee-jerk, simplistic definition of "wealthy" (as explained very nicely by dbq); nor do I have a middle-school-worthy sense of justice based on envy and rage toward people who have more than me.
The wealthy know how to hold on to as much of their money as they can and even if we raise taxes on them, they'll be just fine.
If your argument is that the wealthy wiggle out of all their taxes anyway, then....?
Peter V. Bella said...
Michael said...
Trooper is pointing out the hypocrisy of Joe Biden. Are you anti-Catholic?
If you're making over $250,000 and paying out 50% in taxes (overall or not), you need help.
Hold on there. You want more taxes, yet you think that tax avoidance is intelligent and paying more than the fair share is dumb? Anybody who makes $250,000 and shells out 50% of it in taxes is a fool.
Again, I bet you take each and every deduction and do not give anything back to good old benevolent Uncle Sam. You people really want it both ways. You want higher taxes, as long as you can avoid paying higher taxes.
There is a word for that. Let me see. Oh, yeah, hypocrisy.
12:06 PM
You got it. Now wait for the long list of silly justifications.
Like I said before, it is always funny when they complain about taxes, or when they find ways to avoid them while demanding that others pay more. The chutzpa!
We don't know how much Biden gives to charity. We only know the portion of his charitable giving that is reported on his income tax forms.
This is true. We might be overlooking his charitable contributions of old underwear and socks.
Michael wrote: The information came from the Census Department in 2007. If you don't accept it, that's up to you.
Michael, I believe my information is accurate as well. The first quarter of 1950 was dynamite.
I certainly don't dispute the information or even the analysis. I just don't take it seriously.
Ever heard of the statistical problem of small sample size?
Sure we're talking 60 years, but the important numbers are a) the number of presidents -- 11 vs. b) the number of recessions (the cyclic economic event that really kills a president's "average") -- which is about the same.
Ever heard of category errors? Sure, Nixon and Reagan were both Republicans, but that doesn't mean that they had the same economic policies. Bill Clinton was probably closer to George HW Bush in economic and tax policy than any of his fellow Democrats.
But if the analysis makes you feel good, I'm trying to help. Focus on Truman, 1948-1950, and imagine that perfect trend line.
Joe Biden thinks Limbo is the dance he does under a pole on vacation in St. Barts.
"wanting to make others pay more taxes...only their fair share."
And yet what that "fair share" is constantly seems to elude us. Democrats always seem to know what it is though (because they're so smart). And it always seems to be more than what it is. "Fair share" is a rhetorical shortcut - it avoids looking at the real moral issue.
BTW - A corporate income tax means that corporations only pay taxes on the profit they realize. Is every corporation profitable? Not only that, but other taxes are just another line of overhead in the ledger. The people who really end up paying those taxes are the customers.
Is making $250,000 a year the new millionaire?
You are confusing two very simple concepts here - wealth and income. "Millionaire" refers to wealth (i.e., net worth) and doesn't imply any specific amount of income. Similarly an income of $250,000 doesn't necessarily mean that the earner is a millionaire.
Statistically speaking, a person earning $250,000 in annual income is highly likely to be a millionaire.
BTW - A corporate income tax means that corporations only pay taxes on the profit they realize
Well the problem with many of our resident leftists is they conclude that corporations take a loss on purpose to avoid paying taxes.
I'm not sure even Bambi is smart enough to know that considering who he has advising him.
Does anyone here think it is silly for working people or small business owners to have to hire people to do their taxes?
Steve Forbes had it right. A flat tax on all income, eliminate the silly deductions, cut everyone's bill by one third to one half, simplify reporting, and cut the actual cost of managing, accounting, collecting, and administering the tax code.
He also touted lowering the corporate tax and eliminating some of the other silly taxes too.
Joe Biden thinks Easter was named after islands.
We might be overlooking his charitable contributions of old underwear and socks.
Or he might not deduct his charitable gifts for good reason.
For philosophical reasons, my parents don't take deductions for their charitable gifts. There's no requirement that charitable giving be reported to the IRS. We don't know what Biden gives to charity - we only know what he deducts. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Libtards just don't get it. I think America is finally waking up and realizing this is all the Democrats fault, and we need a hockey mom, a snowmobile racer, and a President who says he doesn't know anything about the economy to get us out of this mess. Real patriots know taxpayers bailing out foreign banks and pumping billions of taxpayer dollars into Iraq's economy is the patriotic thing to do, NOT pay federal income taxes. Sheesh.
Joe Biden thinks Jesus was just Felipe and Matty’s younger brother.
Doyle said...
Wingnut on foreign policy. Wingnut on tax policy.
That's our Joe.
You are confusing two very simple concepts here - wealth and income. "Millionaire" refers to wealth (i.e., net worth) and doesn't imply any specific amount of income. Similarly an income of $250,000 doesn't necessarily mean that the earner is a millionaire.
I'm am well aware of the differences between wealth and income. You may wish to refer back to the comment of the individual I was replying to, the pertinent section was:
I would say they'd cut the taxes of most of the people reading here. Unless there are millionaires here that I don't know about -- possible.
Senator Obama's tax plan calls for a tax increase on those making $250,000 or more irrespective of their total net worth. MadisonMan seemed to imply in his comment that only millionaires would realize an increase in their income tax which as you correctly pointed out, not everyone making $250K per year is a millionaire which was my original point.
Steve Forbes had it right. A flat tax on all income, eliminate the silly deductions, cut everyone's bill by one third to one half, simplify reporting, and cut the actual cost of managing, accounting, collecting, and administering the tax code.
Whatever the merits of a flat tax scheme, it is not possible to cut everyone's tax bill by one third to one half and end up with a revenue neutral tax system.
Biden thinks the Virgin Mary is about saying no to vodka...
Income is what you earn. It has nothing to do with wealth. People who make a million dollars a year may not be wealthy if they are profligate spenders.
Wealth is what you keep and build upon, after spending and taxes. There are people who make modest incomes, yet save and invest who are wealthy.
If you are taxing wealth, you are taxing money that has already been taxed. Joe Biden is talking out of both sides of his mouth. More likely he is talking out of his ass.
Senator Obama's tax plan calls for a tax increase on those making $250,000 or more irrespective of their total net worth. MadisonMan seemed to imply in his comment that only millionaires would realize an increase in their income tax which as you correctly pointed out, not everyone making $250K per year is a millionaire which was my original point.
Statistically speaking, MadisonMan is right. People earning $250,000 annually are highly likely to be millionaires.
Whatever the merits of a flat tax scheme, it is not possible to cut everyone's tax bill by one third to one half and end up with a revenue neutral tax system.
The average taxpayer only pays about fify percent of his taxes based on tax brackets. Deductions and legal avoidance reduce taxes by one half to one third.
If you are in the thirty percent tax bracket, and you take all the deductions due you, you wind up in the twenty to fifteen percent tax bracket. Who is kidding who.
Once again it is important to define our term and understand what these politicians are actually saying. A person can technically be a millionaire because the inflated value of their home that they bought in 1970 for $35,000 which can now be theoretically sold for more than a million dollars. None of them have a million dollars in cash or cash equivalents. The sweat and tears that they put in to paying the mortgage now resides in the appreciated value of their family home. Of course to realize that “million “ they would have to sell the house. Thus calling these people millionaires is just class warfare in the old traditional sense. Most working people who fall in this class know that they are technically “millionaires” but they are still struggling to pay college expenses for their children and paying off their mortgages and other obligations or trying to help their children get set up in their own independent lives.
But please do not let the facts get in the way of your arguments.
This election is turning me into a troglodyte. I'm all for limiting suffrage to tax payers. Taxes without representation is exactly what we have when non-tax-payers get the same vote as tax-payers.
Joe Biden thinks the Vatican is a custom made car.
When you tell Joe Biden you're doing a nine hour Novena-he thinks-
Oooh boy that's gonna cost a lot...
Joe Biden thinks Josea is a Mexican prophet.
If you are taxing wealth, you are taxing money that has already been taxed.
Bullshit.
If I purchase 100 shares of XYZ for $10,000 and the value of those shares in 20 years is $1,010,000, I haven't paid ANY tax on $1,000,000 of the value of that investment.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Joe Biden thinks the Stations of the Cross are on the subway map between West 4th Street and East Broadway.
Palladian said...
I'm going to become a socialist just so I don't give "integrity" a hard-on anymore.
You'd better not, I love the hard-ons you give me.
Statistically speaking, MadisonMan is right. People earning $250,000 annually are highly likely to be millionaires.
Statistically speaking, it is highly likely life exists outside this solar system although without evidence to support such a claim, I'll reserve judgment.
Who is kidding who.
You're kidding yourself. Flat tax proposals have been studied thoroughly and it's just not possible to cut everyone's tax bill by one third to one half and end up with a revenue neutral result.
"I'm a hardcore lefty, paying taxes is necessary to keep your government running properly(provided you have a smart, frugal and honorable government)"
LOL. Hardcore lefties always believe in "frugal" governments! A hardcore lefty with a hard-on! What an image!
"I never said we have to give everything to the government, only what we each owe fair and square."
And who decides what's "fair and square"? Oh! The government decides! How convenient!
I'm going to become a socialist just so I don't give "integrity" a hard-on anymore.
Palladian, I don't think that's good enough. You'll need to go whole hog and become a full fledged nutcase.
(a)A flat tax on all income,
(b)eliminate the silly deductions,
(c)cut everyone's bill by one third to one half,
(d)simplify reporting,
(d)and cut the actual cost of managing, accounting, collecting, and administering the tax code.
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
FLS - It's clearly more patriotic to run up massive deficits, finance the government's operations by selling more bonds to the Chinese (they can't get enough of those suckers) and leave the mess for your successors and your children to deal with....
Hate to say it, but FLS is dead on mark.
Our first war, accompanied by tax cuts for the rich instead of tax increases and common sacrifice by all Americans.
3 trillion in debt, a 500 billion Federal gov't deficit, and a 40% Bush increase in Federal Gov't spending - funded not by forcing Americans to pay for it - but by China and oil exporters because we let the rules change so America loses 1 trillion of our saved wealth every year to foreign nations via trade deficits.
And in a land where the very rich pay less in Total Taxes on each dollar they earned than the bite taken out of working Americans paychecks.
If you are are among the rich and screaming "class warfare!" "Unleash the freedom of Wall Street and free markets again!" And screaming about how Saint Reagan guaranteed that supply side theory would mean all spending was paid for by lowering taxes on the rich?
The glories of trickledown?
Ending taxes on the estates of the rich or investments they park offshore?
Unlimited wars of "liberation and crusade for democracy" where only a few "noble heroes" do all the sacrificing?
That act 1st launched in 1976 by Reagan had it's deserved day. But it's day is over long ago thanks to big flaws in supply side, foreign nations eating our lunch, and reckless Republican pissing away of revenue on elective wars, pork for the wealthy, and massive new Federal Gov't growth.
That the Democrats are also bad is no excuse.
Voters now not only have 3 trillion in debt where a good chuck of their taxes for the next 20 years will actually be checks cut to China and the Saudis to pay for the Bush years - they also face 5 trillion in bad paper for golden parachutes and 400K homes for illegal aliens under Bush's "Ownership Society Plan".
Plus 40 trillion in unfunded SS and medicare liabilities.
(A worse social safety net balance sheet than any "socialist" European country faces, per capita, by a factor of over 2)
Yes, the democrats may fuck us, but after 8 years of Bush, working class Americans are no longer Reagan Democrats - more and more - and are so inclined to want the whole Republican cabal out, and give the Democrats their turn to save us or screw us. The Republicans have no credibility.
It is only the belief that Obama is an arrogant, unqualified, Chicago machine hack that only has a talent for pretty speeches that stops a landslide for the Dems.
THIS sounds like a job for . . .
Nonsense Rhyme Cheerleader Man!!!
(a copyrighted feature of this broadcast):
Paper clip, Navy ship, pocket full of change,
Get a job, roasted squab, fire at close range.
Gooooooooooooo TEAM!
Thus calling these people millionaires is just class warfare in the old traditional sense.
Hee hee! Dittos Rush!
Once again there is a difference between realized and un-realized profit. If an investment in stocks or real estate increases in value, you do not pay tax on it until you “realize” this profit by selling it for cash. The value can of course also go down and we do not “realize” the loss in value by taking a deduction. Basically the tax is only applied or recognized when you convert the asset into cash. To call someone who has an investment that is worth a million dollars that will technically make him a millionaire but does not mean he has access to a million dollars. Once you start to include the values of pensions, IRA’s and 401 K’s, quite a few people are millionaires. If you want to tax them on the unrealized value of investments that have not turned into cash or cash equivalents, you are basically Hugo Chavez or others of his ilk. Of course no one will state it that way because they would know that many millions of people would realize that they are talking about raising their taxes and would rush to vote to send them back to community organizing and running interference for predatory credit card companies.
But please do not let the facts get in the way of your arguments.
krylovite, aren't you like a 20 year old college student? What the flying fuck do you even know about paying taxes?
Cedarford said: Our first war, accompanied by tax cuts for the rich instead of tax increases and common sacrifice by all Americans.
I think inflation of real asset prices is a pretty good surrogate for "tax increases and common sacrifice by all."
The penalty phase has really just begun.
Cedarford sez:
Yes, the democrats may fuck us, but after 8 years of Bush, working class Americans are no longer Reagan Democrats - more and more - and are so inclined to want the whole Republican cabal out, and give the Democrats their turn to save us or screw us. The Republicans have no credibility.
Really? Poll: GOP brand making comeback
“A new poll by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press reports that independent voters have an equally favorable opinion of both parties, 50 to 49 percent, a one-point edge for the GOP. That compares to an 18-point Democratic advantage as recently as August, a wide gap that had generally held for more than a year.
“And half of registered voters overall now have a favorable opinion of the Republican Party, the highest GOP ranking in three years.”
I would be interested in putting Joe Biden's charitable contributions up against Mitt Romney's, even on a percentage basis (why Romney? Good Mormons are serious about tithing).
One of the things that I notice here is that the Democrats in power, esp. in Congress, tend to go after income, and not wealth? Why? Possibly it could be that so many of them already have their wealth. Think Kennedy, Rockefeller, Kerry, Feinstein, etc. in the Senate. With the death of Heinz, what Republican Senator has that sort of money? (ok, if we count Kerry's wife's money and Feinstein's husband's money, we should also count McCain's wife's wealth).
The other thing interesting is that most of these very wealthy Democrats are pikers when it comes to personal charitable contributions.
Being cynical, I might think that the reason for this disparity is that these very rich Democrats are trying to keep down the competition. More realistically, they are following the adage that it is always better to tax the other guy. Besides, it is far, far, easier to tax income for most of us, than it would be to tax the wealth of the rich.
Nevertheless, I am always struck by the fact that so many of the Democratic leadership is far more willing to spend taxpayer money on their perception of charity, than spend their own money.
Joe Biden thinks the Miraculous medal is what they give you when you win the Nobel Peace prize.
As to the idea that you have a lot of deductions at $250,000, let me suggest that most of the better ones have phased out by then. Add to that the AMT. Also, that is $250,000 for married filing joint, not single or married filing separate.
Also, interesting that that $250,000 figure was utilized. The Obamas together are earning roughly twice that, and apparently are struggling to pay for day care for their two kids. What about those of us who aren't earning that much? And have college tuition facing us?
Joe Biden thinks the Miraculous medal is what they give you when you win the Nobel Peace prize.
Joe Biden thinks the Holy Spirit is an episode of Casper as an alter boy.
Joe Biden thinks that crucifixion was an interrogation technique at Gitmo.
Joe Biden thinks a scapula is a goth adornment.
Also, interesting that that $250,000 figure was utilized. The Obamas together are earning roughly twice that, and apparently are struggling to pay for day care for their two kids.
Well it wouldn't be so hard but for the piano and dance lessons.
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