I read It’s a Jungle Out There. And it’s not that I didn’t notice the images were racist — it’s that I didn’t bother to look at the images. It’s not that I don’t understand why images of white women kicking dark-skinned natives are problematic. It’s that I was a sloppy reader who didn’t check out the pictures, even though they’re part of the book and I should have. My not looking at the pictures is part of the problem. Obviously I saw the pictures, because I had to turn the page. If I had taken two seconds to look at them, I would have been pretty pissed. But I didn’t — because, as a white girl, there’s nothing about “jungle theme” that puts me on notice. There’s nothing in my experience that makes me take notice and actually look when I glance past a retro jungle cartoon. That is privilege. I failed to check mine. I failed in a lot of ways.Someone you were in solidarity with had a book and so you had to promote it.
I initially promoted the book because it’s a fun, funny, quick read.Why are you helping sell books that are mere fluff? This blog post goes on and on, and I'm too busy to wade through it. But skipping ahead:
The feminist blogosphere has been poison lately. A lot of people have left. Tonight, for the first time in a long while, I’ve seriously considered dropping out, too. I promised myself that I would quit when I felt like blogging was doing me more harm than good; that is how I feel right now....That post, by Jill of Feministe went up a few days ago. Today, she says she's quitting blogging:
... I feel like an untrustworthy back-stabbing bitch who threw someone she likes and respects under the bus in order to give herself some undeserved moral superiority and undo un-doable wrongs. That wasn’t my intention, of course. It never is. But that’s what it feels like....You know, I don't read the feminist blogs, but from what little I've seen of them, I can see why someone would wake up screaming let me the hell out of here. Feminism should feel like freedom. Obviously, it doesn't. I don't really know what you characters have been doing to each other lately, but get some sleep. Get some fresh air.
That isn’t to say that I don’t stand by what I wrote in the apology post. I do. I just I feel like I’m spinning in circles and I have no idea what I’m even trying to accomplish anymore....
So I need to just stop.
IN THE COMMENTS: Cyrus writes:
I know you say that you "don't read the feminist blogs," ... [b]ut ... Jill ends the blog entry you link to... with the sentence: "I'll come back in a couple of weeks"...You're right. I confess that I stopped when I got to the line "So I need to just stop." It's also clear that she was going to quit for a few weeks anyway to work on exams. So really, what was all this parading of angst about? Ugh. Must go back to not reading feminist blogs. Involuted nonsense. Life goes on.
Posts
66 comments:
There was a study done once of Native Americans who watched Westerns that depicted Native Americans as evil Injuns. They simply did not identify with the evil Injuns and instead identified with the white heroes, because the white heroes embodied the virtues that they shared, such as nobility, honor, compassion, intelligence, and victoriousness.
That said, I think it questionable to assume that images of white adventurers beating up "dark-skinned natives" are racist. If no one is identifying with the dark-skinned natives, then no one is technically being disrespected. Assuming that a dark-skinned person would have such low self-esteem as to identify with a moronic savage is racist.
Feminism is about avoiding noticing things. It can wear you down.
One of the things you avoid noticing is the way out.
I have to confess I don’t understand all this fancy shmancy, post-deconstructicated, third new wavy gravy, theoretical racial feminist stuff.
Same as I don’t understand why otherwise intelligent people can look at a gorilla and think they see a black dude.
I mean . . . come one . . . gorillas have tiny, little penises.
Penes?
Crotch-rockets?
Hey, where the white wymyn at?
I suspect feminism stopped feeling like freedom somewhere back at the point it stopped being an exploration of relationship and became a harsh, controlling, politically-correct religion.
The same thing happened with organic agriculture when it became a religion. Instead of exploring the relationship between farmers and the land, it focused fanatically on distinctions that don't make a difference. For example, you must use mined potassium sulphate, rather than the vastly cheaper manufactured version, which BTW recycles sulphuric acid recycled from pollution control.
The list of relationships driven into religion by fanatics is long -- including environmentalism, race, global warming, diversity, and far too many others.
Including, also, sadly, some forms of the Christian journey in which an exploration of relationship with the Creator of the Universe has somehow devolved into strict norms regarding alcohol, dancing, dress, or whatever.
The current miserable excuse for Feminism has plenty of company.
Well, Jill of Feministe, welcome to the world of white male privilege, where everything you do is wrong because of your gender and because of the color of your skin.
A few months ago I was at a committee meeting where our philanthropic spending was being discussed. The speaker showed a PowerPoint presentation that claimed pretty bluntly that because the Somalian and Mexican immigrants in our town got less preventive care performed that we belonged to a racist institution.
I was floored. Not only because his data were bullshit, but because no one else on the committee seemed to object.
I went off. I said, "Do you realize you are calling Dr X and Dr Y and Dr Z whom you work with every day "racists"? Do they know you think they are racists when they donate their time at the free clinic? Do our lawyers know you plan to present this outside of this committee room?
Silence. I was the turd in a punchbowl. I left. Quit the committee. I just hate this BS.
And now Jill of Feministe is stung by her own Gramscian narrative, where the most aggrieved wins, and you are always paying reparations for every thing you ever do, and for things you never did as well.
The fundamentalist ideologues, whether communists, Marxists, SDSers, PC police, feminists, islamists, Afrocentrists, and the rest focus forever on heresies, wail at perceived slights, and always end up killing their own.
Althouse wrote:
That post, by Jill of Feministe went up a few days ago, today, she says she's quitting blogging...
I know you say that you "don't read the feminist blogs," and I know that won't keep you from commenting on them anyway. But when Jill ends the blog entry you link to (entitled "Taking a Break," by the way) with the sentence:
I'll come back in a couple of weeks
doesn't it occur to you that your statement that "she's quitting blogging" might be a tad bit misleading?
And now Jill of Feministe is stung by her own Gramscian narrative,
I must admit to feeling sympathy for Jill, but then I remembered all the people she's crucified for "not seeing it".
Maybe the break will clear her head and she'll come back wiser. Feminism HAS become poisoned, and thats bad for all of us. It desperately needs a reformation, and that has to be led by someone like Jill.
Bart,
Sometimes a dude is on to about four things I wouldn't think of in one paragraph. Pretty sweet comment.
But is the legalism that creeps into belief a bug or a feature? People seem to have a real strong appetite for it. It must feel good in some way. I'm guessing:
*Helps structure your day
*Allows you to sacrifice for your belief in a way that is limited (I like eating fish on Friday, but martyring myself for the faith is more than I want to bite off right now)
*Expresses identity as a member of the faith
*allows me to scoff at slackers who are using the wrong kind of phosphate or whatever. Looking down on someone always feels good.
When it isn't met by an actual religion then it is pretty inevitable that religious behavior and psychological structures express themselves in other ways.
"Same as I don’t understand why otherwise intelligent people can look at a gorilla and think they see a black dude."
That's funny -- I look at a gorilla and all I see is Mortimer Brezney.
When I looked at the pictures I identified with the dark-skinned natives. They were trying to make the silly bint go away.
White lady teacher:
This mean Tarzan keep Boy from Indy Jones at multiplex?
Have keep Boy from Iron Man?
Tarzan Jane Boy like move-on-magic-screen! Make Tarzan Boy laugh. Jane laugh, too. Cheeta laugh.
Laugh good.
Ungowa.
Tarzan
Escarpment, Africa
PS—Should you ever be held captive by gun-happy mustachioed poachers who descend from the clouds in a Ford TriMotor, please do not hesitate to call upon my services.
Excellent comment, Bart.
It is the pioneer(s) who have the drive and push for change, with creative vision. Those who follow, however, don't have a vision or creativity. They want to, however. They want to mean something so they follow the forms, and make all kinds of rules, solidifying the creativity of the original into a system that often has little connection with the ideals of the originator.
They turn a free dance into a series of rote moves. There is no settled security in real freedom and daring, and that's what the later followers are after--which is a way to find their identity from something else.
The list of relationships driven into religion by fanatics is long -- including environmentalism, race, global warming, diversity, and far too many others. Including, also, sadly, some forms of the Christian journey in which an exploration of relationship with the Creator of the Universe has somehow devolved into strict norms regarding alcohol, dancing, dress, or whatever.
No offense intended, but this is a remarkably idiotic comment.
The trouble with the feminist blogosphere is that it is filled with former girls. My sister's world growing up was filled with drama: cliques, status hierarchies, outcasts, and plenty of hurt feelings. I remember that they avoided playing with a certain Miss Krause (not her real name) for fear of getting "Krause germs." Much later, as a high school sophomore, Miss Krause later became (a) spectacularly unattractive and (b) an unwed mom.
This penchant for drama and hurt feelings persists into the feministoblogosphere. They should all get together for a good cry.
I don't really know what you characters have been doing to each other lately, but get some sleep. Get some fresh air.
They've been caught up in the same gender and race drama playing out in the Democratic presidential campaign. The GOP never has do much to beat the Democrats, since liberals can always be counted on to form a circular firing squad when things start looking good for them.
That said, I think it questionable to assume that images of white adventurers beating up "dark-skinned natives" are racist. If no one is identifying with the dark-skinned natives, then no one is technically being disrespected. Assuming that a dark-skinned person would have such low self-esteem as to identify with a moronic savage is racist.
Not sure whether you mean this ironically or not, but I'm not sure that works. A picture of a Black man dressed as a savage getting kicked in the head by a White reinforces a widespread cultural image (spread by, among other things, rap videos with ostentatious thuggery and by crime statistics) of the Black man as little better than a savage. The fact that a Black man doesn't identify with the depicted Black man doesn't prevent other people from identifying him with the depicted Black man. And that isn't helpful.
I'd agree with you as far as, say, orcs in Lord of the Rings and the giant ape in King Kong, though.
Once again Mortimer is talking out of his ass. Most Native Americans laughed their ass off at the depictions of the "evil injuns" in the movies. You infantilize them by saying they are not smart enough to understand how this works. When John Ford hired the Navajos to play the Indian roles in his classic westerns, they would write their own dialogue which often consisted of jokes and profanities and the equivalent of "White man has small dick" instead of the the ponderous speeches spouted off by the interpreters who are reading off the script. Most Native Americans were in on the joke as word of this was spread from reservation to reservation. Of course some of the worst B-movies might have portrayed Native Americans as evil but never as evil as religious white men or corporations are depicted today.
Of course such a study as you cite might exist, but since it was completed by academic researchers we should dismiss it as the ludicrous tripe that is the product of most academic types. Or is that too much of a stereotype?
Pinkerton,
I can imagine two responses to your "remarkably idiotic" comment.
1. "Some other people here thought Bart's post was insightful. Since you fail to offer any reasoning of why you don't like it, your comment doesn't add anything to the discussion. Moreover, your ad hominem attack lowers the tone, and tends toward creating the kind of hysterical atmosphere found at many other blogs. Perhaps one of them would suit you better. Please do offer your thoughts if you can think of any substantive critique."
2. "Only a weak little pussy like you would make such a stupid comment."
Feel free to respond to whichever you prefer.
And windmills to go before she sleeps. Oh, she's taking a nap now?
And enough of the gorilla similes.
We've got a gorilla for sale...a yellow gorilla for sale.
Won't you buy him...take him home and try him...gorilla for sale.
See in the window, Magilla Gorilla...full of charm and appeal.
Handsome, elegant, intelligent, sweet...He's really ideal.
So if you want a yellow gorilla you can call your own...
a gorilla who'll be with ya when you're all alone.
(Magilla speaking): "Its the MAGILLA GORILLA SHOW.
Starring me and Mr. Peebles...
with Mush-Mouse and Pumpkin-Puss and Rickochet Rabbit and Droop-Along"
(Little girl speaking): "How much is that Gorilla in the window?"
Take our advice...
at any price...
a gorilla like Magilla is mighty nice.
Gorilla...
Magilla Gorilla for sale......
(Official lyrics to the Magilla Gorilla Song)
See he was a yellow gorilla. Obviously a slur at our Asian brothers. Racists.
See he was a yellow gorilla.
He was? Wait, which one was the purple one then? Or did I imagine that?
No Barney is a purple dinosaur. And Sponge Square Pants is yellow and lives with his partner Patrick who is pink in a pineapple under the sea. It's a little stereotypical but it does promote tolerance.
Cyrus Pinkerton said...
No offense intended, but this is a remarkably idiotic comment.
Care to elaborate, Cy, or is this based solely on your intimate familiarity with idiocy?
John wrote:
Some other people here thought Bart's post was insightful.
Some people here watch American Idol and think it's good entertainment. (In other words, John, I'm not impressed with your ad populum argument.)
Moreover, your ad hominem attack lowers the tone...
Apparently you don't understand what constitutes an ad hominem attack. I made an observation about what Bart wrote, not a comment about Bart.
... and tends toward creating the kind of hysterical atmosphere found at many other blogs.
Are you new here? The "atmosphere" at the Althouse blog is no less "hysterical" or less frequently marked by ad hominem than other blogs I read.
Perhaps one of them would suit you better.
Perhaps. Why don't you compile an extensive list for my consideration?
Please do offer your thoughts if you can think of any substantive critique.
I thought my criticism of the comment would be obvious to anyone who read and thought about it. Apparently not to you, though.
As you can check, in the section of Bart's comment that I cite, Bart is discussing "relationships driven into religion." His "list" of such "relationships driven into religion" includes "some forms of the Christian journey..."
Wow. Think about that. "Some forms of the Christian journey" have been "driven into religion." It's an intellectual breakthrough, John! I can see why you found Bart's comment so insightful and felt compelled to defend him against my vicious ad hominem attack.
Only a weak little pussy like you would make such a stupid comment.
Practice what you preach, John.
der hahn wrote:
Care to elaborate, Cy, or is this based solely on your intimate familiarity with idiocy?
I assumed we had critical readers here and that I wouldn't need to elaborate. Clearly that was a poor assumption.
And now Jill of Feministe is stung by her own Gramscian narrative, where the most aggrieved wins, and you are always paying reparations for every thing you ever do, and for things you never did as well.
Exactly. Exactly. Hope you like apples, Jill.
Cyrus can't handle the suggestion that his cause may be a manifestation of suppressed spiritual energy.
He's in pain. Let him be.
I assumed we had critical readers here and that I wouldn't need to elaborate. Clearly that was a poor assumption.
For us less critical readers I'd be curious to hear your elaboration, if that's possible. Avoiding insult and derision would be appreciated. Us yokels don't need to be reminded of the fact.
And Cyrus, if you write real pretty we'll be sure to say nice things about your comments too.
Would hate for the jealousy to boil over and you have to stare at the mirror for a while reminding yourself that people really do like you.
Fen wrote:
Cyrus can't handle the suggestion that his cause may be a manifestation of suppressed spiritual energy.
What cause is that, Fen?
Cyrus, I can't dress your wound for you. Its one of those things you have to do yourself. Good luck.
As a someone who understands the war in Iraq is the most important issue facing our nation, and to have the Democratic candidates who are competing to lose it as fast as they can I am delighting in how the different constituencies the Democratic party has so carefully constructed are now tearing each other apart.
It is with no small amount of irony I note that many opponents of the war has sadly, yet smugly nodded their head and said Sunni, Shia, and Kurd could somehow not live together sans a strongman.
Now I am left to wonder whether the feminists, the black, and the gay constituencies can really live together. Maybe the Democratic Party needs a strongman.
Of course if they simply pitched themselves as Americans who were not victims they might avoid this bloodletting, but they would also lose the base of their power.
Fen,
Why you feel compelled to include me in your fantasy life baffles me. Are you suffering from Lucky withdrawal symptoms?
I tellin' ya, a TV show with Cyrus and Fen would be a ratings bonanza. "What Not to Think" listen to us and we will tell you what to think for both sides of the aisle.
Hey Trooper,
How 'bout them Yankees, the best fourth place team money can buy!
Cyrus baby, baseball is a long season. Just like elections. The front runners at the beginning don't always make it to the end of the big show. The Yankees, Red Sox and Tigers are all having troubles right now. But as the season unfolds things will get back to normal. The Empire will turn the death star in the right direction. Have no fear. We might take on a few new recruits to fill a few holes in our ranks.
Remember Cyrus, George is your father-figure hisssssssssssss!!!!
Plus you are based in Austin right. You just hate Bush cause he traded Sammy Sosa. It always comes back to baseball.
But that TV idea would be a real money maker. Just like wrestling. We can even get Mort to body slam anybody who calls Obama a Negro.
Involuted. I like that word. Let's look it up to make sure I get this right before I go wedging it into sentences. *looks* Yes, that'll do very nicely.
You know I once saw Mort bitch slap a store clerk because she said the Crayolas were colored pencils.
Tarzan (and all permutations of Tarzan from the same era) ARE racist. But they are also infected with the popular notion of the noble savage and the glorification of a pristine state-of-nature. Both concepts are foolish, but I wonder if they may cancel each other out.
Edgar Rice Burroughs, certainly a product of his time, assumed Darwinian Truth and portrayed (without seeing the need for code words) racial and evolutionary differences such as a delicately shaped foot or a lack of facial hair.
Which is funny, isn't it? White guys tend to be hairy fellows with beards (prone to balding on top, though) yet hairlessness was portrayed by ERB as a sign of evolutionary advancement.
In the end, though, the Jungle Girl sorts of comics and ERB and Indiana Jones have the races in them that are in them because if one travels to a remote and mysterious place in this world (which really *can't* happen anymore... no "islands that time forgot" possible with satellite mapping and google earth...) one is NOT traveling to Norway.
What's important to me, being an ERB fan, is that we can recognize what was wrong with the ideas of that time while also recognizing that knowing how people thought then is important, too. And understanding that the genre wasn't about racism as much as racism is ubiquitous in it, but about adventure and exploration and fantasy... as much fantasy as wishing one's self to Mars and marrying a woman who lays eggs.
What bothers me about the offending Jungle Girl illustrations is more that Jungle Girl is beating up men.
Because we've progressed beyond a time when *anyone* thinks it's okay for Jungle Girl to beat up black savages, but it's still quite all right for Jungle Girl to beat up men.
Plus you are based in Austin right.
Only when I'm Amanda Marcotte. When I'm Maxine, I'm in Los Angeles.
Well then you are going to get really pissed at Joe Torre soon, let me tell you. Just wait, that St. Joe act is gonna wear out fast when the Dodgers get beaned every night and St. Joe doesn't do squat.
Wait a minute . . .
Let me see if I've got this right . . .
titus is Amanda Marcotte?
[Stares off into the distance.]
[Scratches lil' puddin' head-bone.]
Q: Temper, temper, Captain.
Capt. Janeway: Get off my ship.
Q: I do so only because it suits me. But I cannot promise not to appear again. I will appear in many guises, in different shapes, some fair and some foul, but it will always be me. I am always with you my dear.
(Star Trek, Voyager 1995)
Actually, I think Mort is right as far as identification goes. Which isn't to say that Troop isn't also right, only that they're talking about different circumstances.
If a white guy goes to see, oh, Foxy Brown, does he identify with the evil white guy or the sexy vigilante? (Or the guy who gets to bed the sexy vigilante?)
Being kept down by the White Man is a common theme in blaxploitation though many of the films were directed by white men. (Well, Jews. Wait, are Jews white? I can never keep this stuff straight. Cedarford?) And of course a great many white people have loved these movies.
Like any other form of communication, the intent of sender can be missed by receiver, whether by not seeing intended racism or by seeing racism that was never intended.
Synova,
ERB is a fascinating read. It's fair to point out that "noble savage"-wise, the only man who came close to Tarzan's equal was not any white man but the leader of the black tribe that served as Major Domos for him in Africa while he was away.
It's also fun to read the Tarzan series back-to-back and see over the three decades how attitudes changed. There is far more English patrician/racism in the early books which is replaced by a more egalitarian view by the time you hit WWII.
The Arabs are pretty reviled throughout, and by WWII, he has little kind to say about the Japs. But I think he abandoned the more eugenic thoughts of his generation before most of his peers.
Fen said...
Feminism HAS become poisoned, and thats bad for all of us.
Feminism WAS always a poison to begin with. It's a stream of ideology that should never have been spawn and should have been aborted the day it was conceptualized.
Cyrus Pinkerton said...
No offense intended, but this is a remarkably idiotic comment.
This is classic Cyrus. Reads a completely truthful and accurate assessment of the moronic ideologies he holds dear and then calls them idiotic without so much as one of his near breathless diatribes of why. One has to wonder how much longer he can keep this charade up for.
Cyrus Pinkerton said...
I made an observation about what Bart wrote, not a comment about Bart.
And there it is. Calling someones comments idiotic, while really meaning the one who said is an idiot by actually trying to distinguish the two. Deceptive and deceitful all in one sentence.
Paddy O. said...
Would hate for the jealousy to boil over and you have to stare at the mirror for a while reminding yourself that people really do like you.
You do understand that he probably does actually stand in front of a mirror and recites the things he says here and elsewhere. Then he inhales deeply puffing out his chest and then realizes that no one is around to share in his joy. Exhales.
Deceptive and deceitful all in one sentence.
Duh; its Cyrus.
Methadras wrote:
This is classic Cyrus. Reads a completely truthful and accurate assessment of the moronic ideologies he holds dear and then calls them idiotic without so much as one of his near breathless diatribes of why. One has to wonder how much longer he can keep this charade up for.
No offense intended, but this is a remarkably idiotic comment.
Methadras wrote:
Calling someones comments idiotic, while really meaning the one who said is an idiot by actually trying to distinguish the two. Deceptive and deceitful all in one sentence.
Hey, Methadras, the Althouse plagiarist is back! Or do you prefer "accidental plagiarist" as you have suggested before? By the way, the notion of "accidental plagiarism" still cracks me up!
Anyway, I wanted to clarify my previous post. While it's true that your comments are remarkably idiotic, in your case there is overwhelming evidence that you're actually incredibly stupid. No offense intended, of course, but you really are quite dumb.
Take care buddy!
You do understand that he probably does actually stand in front of a mirror and recites the things he says here and elsewhere. Then he inhales deeply puffing out his chest and then realizes that no one is around to share in his joy. Exhales.
Oh great! Methadras joins the group of Althouse nutters who feel compelled to include me in their fantasy life.
Duh; its Cyrus.
Ok, Revenant isn't dumb. I suspect he generally knows the difference between "it's" and "its," for example.
But Revenant frequently has genuine trouble producing substantive posts, and the fact that he wants to high five the official Althouse plagiarist after Methadras drooled out three mindless (but original!) comments speaks volumes.
It's well past midnight, time for masks off! The masquerade has been mildly amusing, but all too predictable.
Predictable, too, is my arrival to tell those of you who may not be aware of the obvious, that "Cyrus" is, in fact, none other than Amanda Marcotte herself.
It won't do to post anything further, because Amanda always has the Last Word, no matter how far into pure insult the alleged conversation has degenerated.
Inspektor Friedrich deduces:
Predictable, too, is my arrival to tell those of you who may not be aware of the obvious, that "Cyrus" is, in fact, none other than Amanda Marcotte herself.
Nothing gets past you, Inspektor, except for my comment at 2:44 PM, apparently.
I'm flattered that you spend so much time thinking about me, Inspektor, but I'm strictly not interested. Sorry. Maybe Methadras would appreciate your attention and affection.
Good luck.
I spend as little time as I reasonably might thinking about you, Amanda. You are the one who obtrudes herself before the public,
so you perhaps would not be flattered if you knew the contents of such few thoughts as you merit.
I am known around here for thinking about trolls, however, one of which you most certainly are. The UCLA Troll Central, from which oozed Maxine and others, is a subject I have investigated to my satisfaction, and in which I have frankly lost interest.
Your 2:44 comment piqued my curiosity only insofar as being reminded of the odious characters there, one of which you claim to be. I had always taken you to be Amanda Marcotte, which I still think you are. But if you wish to claim residence in that Hall of Mirrors which is the verminous home of internet trolls, by all means, do so.
As I have said, you pride youself on always having the Last Word. Please carry on, as I have no further time to waste on silly people such as yourself.
Thanks, Inspektor!
And for those who think Cyrus said "I'm Amanda Marcotte" before the Inspektor talked about it, go back to this post from February. The Inspektor wrote:
Hmmm...Amanda Marcotte trashes Althouse. How long will we have to wait for 'Cyrus Pinkerton' to show up? ... The appearance of Cymanda never fails to confirm the truths of both Pope's famous warning about knowledge, and P.T. Barnum's bon mot about the American public.
Inspektor,
Based on the evidence at hand, you clearly spend far more time thinking about me that you care to admit. And as I said before, I'm flattered but not at all interested. No offense, but your stupidity is highly repellent.
Please carry on, as I have no further time to waste on silly people such as yourself.
So you say. If you are being honest, this will be your last post to or about me. However, since you've been down this road before, and here you are again, I suspect I'll hear from you again soon enough.
Althouse wrote:
Thanks, Inspektor!
It's wonderful, I suppose, that you are reasonably tolerant of the many unusual characters in the Althouse blog community. However, you might want to think twice about encouraging the delusional. In fact, I suggest you even try thinking once about it.
Anybody that likes baseball can't be all bad.
Except for Red Sox fans. They suck.
Looking for men's suits? Try at mensusa.com the top seller in selling suits.
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