August 28, 2007

"What do you think about that?"

I'm sorry I didn't get the chance to weigh in on this yesterday, but everybody's talking about Senator Larry Craig. The story:
Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) was arrested in June at a Minnesota airport by a plainclothes police officer investigating lewd conduct complaints in a men’s public restroom... On Aug. 8, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor disorderly conduct...

After he was arrested, Craig, who is married, was taken to the Airport Police Operations Center to be interviewed about the lewd conduct incident, according to the police report. At one point during the interview, Craig handed the plainclothes sergeant who arrested him a business card that identified him as a U.S. Senator and said, “What do you think about that?” the report states....
What do I think about that? I think the fact that he did that suggests it works sometimes to get him off the hook. It certainly shows that he thinks it can and he's willing to use his power that way. He should resign for that alone.
[Sgt. Dave Karsnia, a plainclothes officer,] entered the bathroom at noon that day and about 13 minutes after taking a seat in a stall, he stated he could see “an older white male with grey hair standing outside my stall.”...

“I could see Craig look through the crack in the door from his position. Craig would look down at his hands, ‘fidget’ with his fingers, and then look through the crack into my stall again. Craig would repeat this cycle for about two minutes,” the report states.

Craig then entered the stall next to Karsnia’s and placed his roller bag against the front of the stall door.

“My experience has shown that individuals engaging in lewd conduct use their bags to block the view from the front of their stall,” Karsnia stated in his report. “From my seated position, I could observe the shoes and ankles of Craig seated to the left of me.”

Craig was wearing dress pants with black dress shoes.

“At 1216 hours, Craig tapped his right foot. I recognized this as a signal used by persons wishing to engage in lewd conduct. Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. I moved my foot up and down slowly. While this was occurring, the male in the stall to my right was still present. I could hear several unknown persons in the restroom that appeared to use the restroom for its intended use. The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area,” the report states.

Craig then proceeded to swipe his hand under the stall divider several times, and Karsnia noted in his report that “I could ... see Craig had a gold ring on his ring finger as his hand was on my side of the stall divider.”

Karsnia then held his police identification down by the floor so that Craig could see it.

“With my left hand near the floor, I pointed towards the exit. Craig responded, ‘No!’ I again pointed towards the exit. Craig exited the stall with his roller bags without flushing the toilet. ... Craig said he would not go. I told Craig that he was under arrest, he had to go, and that I didn’t want to make a scene. Craig then left the restroom.”
What a sad, pathetic scene! It's awful that public bathrooms -- especially in places like airports -- are used for sexual activity. The police have to figure out how to drive this activity elsewhere. Karsnia has a tough job, but he seems to handle it with efficiency and as much dignity as you can when it involves sitting on a toilet and letting someone watch you through the crack in the door.

Craig has a difficult moral problem if, as it seems, he has a gay sexual orientation, but he has chosen to marry a woman. Cheating on his wife and obtruding on the bathroom-going public is no way to deal with his predicament. It's especially ugly if he's taking this miserable course in order to maintain his grip on political power with an electorate that wouldn't tolerate him if he lived his life openly and honestly.

Worst of all, to my mind, is the proffering of the business card and the "What do you think about that?"

UPDATE: I see Glenn Greenwald is attacking me about the Senator Craig story:
The reaction to the Larry Craig story provides one of the most vivid illustrations yet of how the right-wing movement works. Last October, just weeks before the midterm election, gay activist Mike Rogers reported that the married, GOP "family values" Senator repeatedly had sex with anonymous men in public bathrooms. His report was based on "extensive research," including interviews with several men whom Craig solicited for bathroom sex.

As Rogers argued at the time, the story was relevant -- just as the Vitter prostitute story was -- in light of Craig's frequent political exploitation of issues of sexual morality and his opposition to virtually every gay rights bill. Rogers' story, as a factual matter, seemed relatively credible, both because of his history of accurate outings and because there is no discernible reason why, if he were intent on fabricating, he would single out someone as obscure as Larry Craig, who was not even up for re-election....

Among right-wing pundits -- weeks before the election -- there was nothing but support for Craig and outrage over the reporting of this story. The most hysterical outrage of all was from Glenn Reynolds, who went so far as repeatedly to predict -- literally -- that the country would be so repulsed by Rogers' reporting that it might actually swing the election in favor of the Republicans. More absurdly still, Reynolds cited a grand total of two reasons why he voted for GOP's Bob Corker over Harold Ford in the Tennessee Senate race, one of which was actually Rogers' report on Craig ("the sexual McCarthyism from the pro-outing crowd . . . . has convinced me that [Democrats] just don't deserve a victory with those tactics").

As usual, Bush-supporting bloggers like Ann Althouse and Patterico dutifully echoed Reynolds' line: "I truly believe this sort of tactic is going to create a backlash."
So this is a link back to something I wrote in October 2006. I have to go back and check because I don't remember writing about Craig before. Here's the old post:
"Lefty Blogger Outs Senator As Gay."

Patterico notes. Captain Ed comments.

Kos is taking a poll. "Do you agree with outing Gay Republicans?" 70% say "yes. But don't you think this percentage would change if the strategy backfires? I think aggressive characters like our "lefty blogger" think that uncovering gay Republicans will disgust social conservatives and change their voting behavior. They might also believe that they are demonstrating hypocrisy and that doing so will motivate Republicans to abandon social conservatism. I would like to see Republicans abandon social conservatism, and I'm not cheering on these slimy outings. But, honestly, I think these creepy, gleeful efforts at outing will only make social conservatives more conservative, and they will continue to look to the Republican party to serve their needs.
Well, this isn't about Senator Craig or sex in public bathrooms. (And it doesn't link to Glenn Reynolds either.) This is about the general practice of outing gay Republicans, which I find offensive. Moreover, I didn't even say that I thought this would produce a backlash. I said that lefties wouldn't use this tactic if they didn't think it would stimulate homophobia and turn voters away from socially conservative Republicans. Of course, I am hoping the tactic backfires and that the voters are not really homophobic. This is a longstanding theme here, and Greenwald either can't understand it, won't take the time to see what I'm saying, or is deliberately misstating what I say in a low, sleazy attack. Which is it?

Let's see if Greenwald apologizes and corrects his post. Now that he can see how inaccurate and inappropriate his attack is, a failure to correct is outright deceit.

Also, Greenwald's post is incredibly boring and windy. Maybe he actually can't understand things that aren't blathered about at great length. Ugh!

NEXT DAY UPDATE: Over 300 comments, and I know some of them are abusive. I'm not able to comb through and delete, so I apologize to readers who find some of this offensive. Please try harder to argue with each other in a way that doesn't involve name-calling. And don't use the F word!

327 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 327 of 327
Palladian said...

I must also add that I'm generally uneasy with the idea of "plain-clothes" cops participating in any kind of sting. I'm sure this practice has been legally challenged?

Anonymous said...

Let's all agree to stop talking about Bill Clinton, as soon as I get in the last word:

Tapping your foot in a bathroom stall: Sick! Criminal!!

Beating off into the sink in the Oval Office with a plump woman standing nearby while you are married to someone else: nothing to see here.

Justin said...

Luckyoldson said...

justin,
If you and Sloan think having consensual sex with another adult is the same as a Senator slinking around bathrooms, looking to hook up with whoever...you're welcome to it.


Thanks. But that's not what I said at all. If you would like to go back and read my comment again, I am still interested in your answer to my questions.

Now, in the comment I quoted above, you use the phrases "consensual sex with another adult" and "a Senator slinking around bathrooms, looking to hook up with whoever" and say they are completely different. But as far as I can tell, Craig was looking for "another adult" to have "consensual sex" with. Which would make the two phrases exactly the same. Do you have evidence that Craig was attempting to rape someone or that he was looking for a minor to have sex with?

Maxine Weiss said...

Let's face it: Parents who send their toddlers into Men's Restrooms alone....is equivalent of selling them into prostitution, or white slavery.

The quickest way to deflower young boys is to send 'em into the Mens' Room with a Senator !

I know I've been traumatized every single time I have to enter a Womens' Room.

I say ban all public restrooms. They really aren't necessary when you have Porta-potties, catheters, colostomy bags....those can all take the place of a public restroom.

Titus16 said...

Joe's comments:

"But...the cop was doing his duty, running an operation, looking for "perverts" stalking the bathrooms.

Glad to see the left is so tolerant of homosexuality."

Joe but Larry Craig has stated he is not gay. Many of these men who frequent these places would probably say they are not gay because they don't live the "gay lifestyle"-you know actually out and comfortable with being gay. They just have gay sex, that's different to many of them-but definitely not gay.


Also, there are gay people as well as straight people who are perverts.

Many of these so called tea room traders are married and not your average run of the mill gay.

Most gays don't hang out in public restrooms.

The kind of guy that does this is someone who isn't able to socialize with another gay man or go to any other gay events and as a result hangs out in public bathrooms.

As a gay man I think any individual hanging out in a public bathroom looking for sex is perverted.

Also, how condusive is someplace like that to actually have sex? What on earth can they possibly do in a public bathroom. Especially, one which I imagine is incredibly busy which would be the case in an airport.

Anonymous said...

When two people go into a bathroom for the express purpose of looking for someone to have sex with, it's not consensual.

Now I'm leaning toward parody...

Anonymous said...

Most gays don't hang out in public restrooms.

Thanks for clearing that up, pal. As a Republican, I had thought otherwise.

Otherwise, please note that the comment that you cite has nothing to do with what you go on to say.

The Exalted said...

palladian,

he pled guilty! for christs sakes

Maxine Weiss said...

Because women don't wear underwear these days. Victoria's Secret is considered formal-wear, and normal business attire. ---No wonder the filthy restrooms.

Shut 'em all down---no more public restrooms.

Give 'em all catheters.

Skanks.

Maxine Weiss said...

How 'bout adult diapers? It might keep those male senators out of the restrooms, and out of trouble.

It's kind of an attractive image, your Senator shuffling around in diapers.

Brings out the mothering instinct in some women.

Titus16 said...

The democrats will have some great ads for the family values circuit in the coming election...

Karl Rove really damaged these guys-they all need to be saints because of his strategy and when the fall from grace it is that much harder.

Who would do Larry Craig=he is butt ugly. But then again so are most middle aged frumpy white republican men(pasty-an Ann word) and usually fat oh and did I mention butt ugly? Maybe he has a big prick-but still wouldn't matter. That face can scare small children.

He would haunt me in the dreams.

He was the actor in the Poltergeist movie wasn't he who knocked on the families door?

I think it would be helpful to have pictures for each commenter on this site just so we can see the level of ugly we are working with here. I picture a bunch of Beldhar, Instapundit, Jonah Goldberg types who never get a good blowjob and probably can't see their cock because their stomach is too big-am I wrong?

garage mahal said...

What a great legacy Clinton has. His name will forever be mentioned in any discussion of a sex scandal.

Correct, it will forever be discussed by wingnutty weirdos like you no matter the topic at hand. You don't care that it was Clinton that got a blow job and lied. You cared because it was a Democrat, who is smart, successful, and powerful. The party of Tom Delay, Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, and Jack Abramoff seriously cares about sex scandals and lies? You should really once step back and see how insanely ridiculous it looks from the other side. Now granted, talking anything about sex if it involved icky and gross old Republicans like Rudolph Giuliani or Fred Thompson isn't very appealing. But still.

Titus16 said...

Brit Hume and John Gibson are fucking ugly too-dam-you wingnuts have some ugly motherfuckers on your team.

Titus16 said...

Turd Blossom is the captain of the uglies though-man that is one fucking ugly man.

Anonymous said...

Bullshit, Titus. There's been perpetual damage to "these guys" in your feeble brain because you believe that all Republicans are holy rollers. What's the Matter with Kansas? and all that. The fact that Christian evangelicals make up a small part of the spectrum of Republicans (in the same way that communists make up a small contingent of the left) is simply too much for your mind to grasp.

Your attempts at insults are really funny. Yeah, dude. All Republicans are frumpy. Absolutely. And all of us think of the "other" as a undistinguished block of hoi polloi. I wish we could be like you, and see all the multicultural differences around us.

Also, Titus, my hunch is that you are a lot less to look at than you claim.

You are so stupid and inane that you can't even be funny using vulgarity. That takes a special kind of dunderheadedness.

LoafingOaf said...

LoafingOaf, since you're clearly stil hanging around and haven't actually responded to my reply to you, I'm going to go ahead and conclude you made an insubstantial attack that petered out on the first rejoinder.

Haven't got back up-thread yet, what with watching the Indians vs Twins, eating dinner, posting in the smoking thread, and starting back here at the bottom. Sorry, I'll read it now.

Okay, well, I wasn't really attacking you, just trying to figure out what you really believed, as you seemed to be intentionally unclear.

I saw you debating in another thread last night, and then disappeared when someone (Downtownsomeone) outlined what he claimed to be your positions on several gay issues that seemed to be a damaging blow (if true) to your claim you don't mind what gay people do.

Then I'm reading this thread and you're stressing this point you're so into about tolerance not being the same as acceptance, and how gay people shouldn't expect pats on the head from society and being told what they are doing is okay, and if they're feeling bad about doing something society is not giving enough approval for maybe they should change their lifestyles instead of asking others to be more accepting.

No one is required to say they find something acceptable if they don't. But I wasn't able to make out what you really thought. Were you talking about others or youself? Isn't it wrong for society to disapprove of something that's natural, such as the way people are born? Or do you not believe people are born gay? Or do you not know?

You say what consenting adults do in their bedrooms is of no concern to you. So you tolerate it. But do you accept and approve even though you're not obligated to? Since you're undecided on gay marriage, you're not sure?

I don't know you well enough to question your sincerity when you obsess on constitutional process and your minority view on long-established Supreme Court precendents in our case law. I was feeling you were being a little insincere, but I see now that I don't have enough basis for that.

I'll take your word for it that you don't support those sodomy laws, but you're handcuffed from finding them unconstitutional due to your approach to con law. If your view of con law is forcing you to accept outcomes that you dislike, that shows how serious and sincere you are about your approach to the constitution. However, many social conservatives who want to overrule many of the same cases you do take their view because they dislike the outcomes, and it's hard to tell who's who.

Titus16 said...

Sixty Nine Mary,
You are turning me on?

What to go private?

No pic no dick, Mary?

Up for it?

I have an ass shot, dick shot, chest and face-what's your email I will send you my pic if you send me yours and then see where if it goes from there.

If you are over 40 though forget-you have to be between the ages of 28-35, bench at least 250, 30-31 inch waist, and have a tight ass....my guess is no you are a melange of karl rove/bill o'reilly/rush limbaugh all rolled up in a doughy white fat paste with a little cock and a couple of public hairs. Prove me wrong-Let's see it.

Titus16 said...

Sixty Nine Mary's tough talk is making me horny.

Nothing like bending down some right wing fanatic bent down on all fours begging for a big cock.

mtrobertsattorney said...

There appears to be a sizable subculture out there, complete with secret signs and symbols, that encourages and practices same-sex coupling in public restrooms. Will the existence of this subculture become a political minefield for the democrats? Stay tuned.

Titus16 said...

Tucker Carlson just said he has "been bothered in men's restrooms"-that's hilarious.

Titus16 said...

"Will the existence of this subculture become a political minefield for the democrats? Stay tuned"

Not likely because democrats are not as uptight about being gay as republicans are and as a result resort to going to underground venues for sex (ie bathrooms).

Titus16 said...

sorry I meant "don't go to public restrooms" for sex.

Justin said...

Seven Machos said...

I always have thought he is just a silly, overly talkative person -- a non-thinking lefty who will say whatever is convenient and tow (toe?) the party line and who makes lefties look bad.

That's what I thought at first too. It's the inconsistencies that got me thinking. Sure, everyone contradicts their own statements now and again. But to do it in the space of one half-formed sentence? In multiple instances?! No, that's got to be a symptom of an actor with too many balls in the air to keep track of his character. Plus, he has, on occasion, demonstrated that he can put together a valid, reasonable argument.

Now I'm leaning toward parody...

See what I mean? That's the evil genius working. You never know! You will never know!

Justin said...

Titus16 said...

Brit Hume and John Gibson are fucking ugly too-dam-you wingnuts have some ugly motherfuckers on your team.

Now look what you've done. You've made me bring up John Kerry. Do you really believe that ugliness is restricted to the right?

Unknown said...

First of all, I think Ann has no idea what it is like to be gay in this country. Especially for a gay 62 year old. She is completely out of touch.

Which makes sense. Ann went to art school, lived in New York City during the 70's and 80's and then lived in Madison. She probably had lots of exposure to gay people during that period, and to Ann, it's no big deal. She assumes everyone thinks that way. They don't.

Ann thinks it's so easy to just come out of the closet and be out and proud, and can't fathom why it would be difficult for people to still be in the closet in this day and age.

Maybe if she just listened to her readers, like Seven, Pogo, Cedarford, Simon, etc. - who insist that they don't care if people are gay. But then in the next breath they insist that gay people keep their lives to themselves.

In other words, they're ok with people being gay as long as they never have to be exposed to it. As long as it is not "shoved in their face".

Hmm, now how would a gay person raised in that environment (say Idaho for example) react when bigots like Pogo, Simon, Cedarford, Seven, etc. constantly saying they "disaprove" of the "gay lifestyle". When kids at a high school call names such as "faggot" and "sissy" to a boy who might enjoy theater and not sports. When the normal reaction of a family when a child tells them they are gay, is for the family to disown them and kick them out of the house. That's what Alan Keyes did to his daughter by the way, when she came out as a lesbian. The normal reaction for a gay person raised in that environment is to stay in the closet. Forever.

In Idaho in the 1950's, gay people all over the city were rounded up and arrested. You can read about the Boys of Boise episode here:

http://www.yffn.org/admin/history/virta.html

Heck - Idaho didn't even have a gay bar until 1975. Larry Craig was already over 30 at that time. They didn't have a gay pride march until the late 1980's. Craig was over 40 at the time. His secret gay life was already ingrained at that time.

I guess Craig was brainwashed by his family and friends, that homosexuality was so evil, that he became self-loathing and couldn't accept the fact that he was gay. An outlook, by the way, that is reinforced on other gay youth in this country every day by people like Simon, Seven, Cedarford, Pogo, Sloanasaurrus, etc.

So Craig did what was expected. He got married and did exactly what the bigots wanted, he kept his sexuality hidden. He made sure he "didn't shove his sexuality in other people's faces" as bigots like Simon, Seven, Cedarford, Pogo, Sloanasaurrus beg gay people to do this very day.

So of course, Craig couldn't go to a gay bar, because he would be outing himself and encouraging the "gay lifestyle". And nothing will shove a gay person's "lifestyle" in someone's face as going to a gay bar. He couldn't have a monogomous gay relationship, because that's public too and would be "shoving it in people's faces".

So he had anonymous random sex. And guess what - closeted people who have anonymous, random sex are going to have to have some secret places where they meet up. And it turns out they are public parks and certain restrooms. Does anyone have a better alternative assuming it is 1960's Idaho? The internet didn't exist then if you didn't know . . . .

That's how Larry Craig has been having gay sex his entire life.

Anonymously.

Randomly.

Sometimes in restrooms. Sometimes in parks. And guess what? He probably wasn't disturbing anyone. Many people were probably unaware of it.

Exactly as they asked for. How dare they act shocked that this is happening.

But then the same bigots, who force gays into the closet, are probably the same ones who place that call to police complaining about bathroom sex. So the police do a sting operation and people like Larry Craig are caught.

He's 62. He can't admit to himself that he's gay, because he hates gay people. And he can't admit that he's one of them.

Most gay people have gone through this self-loathing at some point in their life. And while most don't have bathroom sex anymore (because of the internet), closeted gays will still have anonymous, random sex. They don't have any other choice. It's only among today's younger generation, where being gay is ok, and they come out at age 14, that this psychological damage did not occur.

I feel sorry for him. He's a sad and pathetic human being.

But the bigots are fooling themselves if they don't think they share responsibility for how Larry Craig got to this state.

Titus16 said...

Definitely not restricted to repubs-john kerry is definitely not much to look at.


Where did Sixty Nine Mary's go? I wanted to connect with her?

KCFleming said...

Re: "because democrats are not as uptight about being gay "

Hence their rapid and rabid disavowal of the Minneapolis airport police tactic targetting gay behavior.

P.S. titus,
Whatever will you do to survive once you hit 40, and young guys are mocking you for being long past your sell-by date? For it will happen, of course. Your shock-em ribald comments suggest not just youthful bravado, but a very thin shell, and one who is easily wounded. Just a guess. Regardless, an aging Lothario is a most pitiful thing.

Unknown said...

And of course straight people are now having sex in bathrooms too. At least the cool straight people . . .

http://www.groovanauts.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=56184

John Stodder said...

If you're like me, you read downtownlad's comments ready to be irritated.

Today he is spot on. Craig is a victim of a social stigma that is slowly receding. But given his age and where he came from, it is hardly surprising that he would look for liaisons in restrooms (if in fact that's what he was doing). That's what closeted gay men did. They got married and cruised in dark corners like restrooms, hoping they wouldn't be discovered and ruined.

That's the way things were, but it's not how they should be anymore. It cannot be defended. It shouldn't only be an issue for gay zealots like DTL to embrace. Straight men and women on the right and left all need to see the fundamental civil rights issue underneath Craig's alleged misdeed, and need to be leaders, educating the bigots like the Family Research Council instead of kowtowing to them.

Nobody in America should be required by prejudice or blackmail to hide their God-given sexuality in restroom stalls anymore. That should not be a controversial position.

Titus16 said...

Pogo if you read any of my comments regarding Larry Craig i have said have said that I actually feel sorry for him and think it is very sad for him and his family.

I believe that gay men in pubic restrooms having sex should be arrested or supposed straight men having sex in public restrooms should be arrested.

I don't believe his most recent denials.

As far as age, I am 32 so I wouldn't call myself an "aging lothario" yet-give me some time.
But what will I do-fight the aging process every step of the way like a patriotic New Yorker-I have many friends who are over 40 (kind of like straights have many gay friends) who still look fabulous. As far as my maturity-whatever-you can call me immature doesn't much matter to me but an interest in physical looks generally goes well beyond my age, so is Fred Thompson immature because he has a babe for a wife now? How about all the other old white men? It's called reality. We all want something beautiful to be with-that's life Pigo.

Titus16 said...

Also pigo I am attracted and interested in people my same age 28-35, does that make me an aging lothario?

Am i being against older people because I don't want to have sex with someone over 40-get over it bitch.

Titus16 said...

Where did sixtynine mary's go?

She was hot.

Synova said...

Not disagreeing with you, dtl, except to say that the suppressive rhetoric of 1950 isn't a whole lot like people now saying, "I don't care what other people do, if they like guys or anything, but I'd rather not know and really rather not have to watch."

Even as recently as when I was in school parents would quietly be given advice on how to correct their child's gender variant behavior for fear they'd turn gay.

I find that horrific.

The world has changed significantly. You connected the oppression of gays to getting sex anonymously and randomly... maybe that's true and it's a cyclical sort of thing because while I don't care if someone is gay or lesbian I resent the implication that I'm supposed to approve of (rather than tolerate) a lifestyle that often involves very public sexuality and presumed private promiscuity.

I'd like to see gays have the ability to marry and for our society to promote a traditional idea of marriage and promote monogamy within that community.

Yet I'd also be among those who very sincerely do not want to know.

It's a bit how people feel about parents... a person knows that they have sex but would really rather not *know* that they have sex. Or my brother. He's got two kids. There are certain things I just do not want to think in the context of my brother.

In my mind that is the difference between "in your face" and not. It's not a demand to be closeted.

Unknown said...

Well Synova - If you have kids that turn out to be gay, I can pretty much guarantee that they'll have a complex and be in the closet for at least a little while.

Because the way you raise them will instill them with shame and guilt if they happen to be gay.

So they'll have anonymous, random sex with strangers.

But hey - the good news is at least you won't have to know!

Unknown said...

Revenant said..."There's nothing inconsistent about being gay and against gay rights, either."

And people here wonder why I think there are specific people who are...Dumb as a stump??????

Unknown said...

By the way Synova - you know that your brother is straight.

So please - tell me about the intimate details of his sex life.

Because your assumption is that someone declaring themselves to be gay, implies that you automatically know about how they get it on. So I assume it works the same if someone is straight.

How exactly do you get those powers?

I'm gay you know. And I'm shoving it in your face. Please - describe my sex life. Let's see how accurate you are.

Being gay or straight is something that's PUBLIC. Details of someone's sex life is something that's PRIVATE.

Why can't you understand the difference?

Revenant said...

The party of Tom Delay, Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, and Jack Abramoff seriously cares about sex scandals and lies?

That sentence doesn't make much sence. DeLay and Libby weren't brought down by sex scandals, and Rove retired without a single would-be scandal having successfully stuck to him.

Simon said...

Loafingoaf:
"Okay, well, I wasn't really attacking you, just trying to figure out what you really believed, as you seemed to be intentionally unclear."

Sorry, that was the inference I took. Apologies for coming on a little strong.

"I saw you debating in another thread last night, and then disappeared when someone (Downtownsomeone) outlined what he claimed to be your positions on several gay issues that seemed to be a damaging blow (if true) to your claim you don't mind what gay people do."

You mean this? He was lying through his teeth, which is why he couldn't find a single link to support his claims, even though I've commented here almost daily for maybe two years, and not much less frequently at SF. DTL's a regular here; we know his schtick. As Pogo said lower in the same thread, DTL is obsessed with sexuality, and for him (and I believe other people who seem to define every aspect of their lives through the lens of it), anyone not in the jihad is an infidel. I'm not in the jihad, I'm not fired up for gay rights and so forth; I don't care about that stuff. Ergo, to him, I'm the enemy, because for people whose lives are completely defined by any one issue, no one can be neutral on that issue.

"Then I'm reading this thread and you're stressing this point you're so into about tolerance not being the same as acceptance, and how gay people shouldn't expect pats on the head from society and being told what they are doing is okay, and if they're feeling bad about doing something society is not giving enough approval for maybe they should change their lifestyles instead of asking others to be more accepting."

To clarify the point: it's not that I don't think "gay people should[] expect pats on the head from society and being told what they are doing is okay," it's that I don't think anyone should (or has any right) to "expect pats on the head from society and being told what they are doing is okay." If you can do what you do - whatever your tipple is, good bad or neutral, drugs, alcohol, fine wines, pornography, homosexuality, s&m, arthouse cinema, haute cuisine, being a stockbroker - and look at yourself in the mirror in the morning, if it's legal, do it. If you can't look yourself in the eye in the mirror, if what you're doing disgusts you, stop doing it. As a general rule, I don't think government ought to intervene in such matters except that they impact other people others. That's tolerance, as I see it. But asking for special priveleges or for society's imprimatur? No one gets to ask for that. They might receive it, of course, but they don't have a right to ask. Acceptance is society's to give, not anyone's to demand.


"Isn't it wrong for society to disapprove of something that's natural, such as the way people are born?"

It's not my place to dictate what society ought to think, and my observation - like Burke's - is that most philosophies that try to do so become tyrannical in practice. If people want to know what I think, I'll tell them. If they want to know what they should think, I think they should make their own minds up.

"Or do you not believe people are born gay? Or do you not know?"

I don't care.

"You say what consenting adults do in their bedrooms is of no concern to you. So you tolerate it. But do you accept and approve even though you're not obligated to? Since you're undecided on gay marriage, you're not sure?"

My concern about gay marriage is rooted in my concern for messing around with a traditional institution older than recorded history. Moreover, once you eliminate tradition as defining marriage, I'm hard-pressed to see on what basis you can draw any kind of line against polygamy, and I'm not willing to do that.


"I don't know you well enough to question your sincerity when you obsess on constitutional process and your minority view on long-established Supreme Court precendents in our case law. I was feeling you were being a little insincere, but I see now that I don't have enough basis for that. I'll take your word for it that you don't support those sodomy laws, but you're handcuffed from finding them unconstitutional due to your approach to con law. If your view of con law is forcing you to accept outcomes that you dislike, that shows how serious and sincere you are about your approach to the constitution."

Ask anyone here, I'm a regular bore on the subject. ;)

"However, many social conservatives who want to overrule many of the same cases you do take their view because they dislike the outcomes, and it's hard to tell who's who."

I accept the truth of that. Nevertheless, just because they have the wrong motives doesn't mean that they're necessarily wrong. ;) Still, I think I accept on stare decisis grounds a lot of things that more instrumentalist critics would overrule.

Unknown said...

John says "Today he is spot on. Craig is a victim of a social stigma that is slowly receding."

"Social stigma??????????????"

YOU consider prowling bathrooms...a form of "social stigma???"

What bathrooms are YOU hanging around in????

Dumb, dumb, dumb...

Unknown said...

rev says: "Rove retired without a single would-be scandal having successfully stuck to him."

The key word being...."stuck."

What a hoot...

Unknown said...

Simon continues with the disgusting, anti-gay bigoted slurs.

First, how DARE he accuse of revolving my life around being gay, when he thinks its ok for him to revolve his life around being straight.

BULL

FUCKING

SHIT

Straight people not only revolve their lives around being straight (dating, getting married, having kids, etc), but they construct the laws of this country to be completely favorable towards STRAIGHT married couples raising kids. Tax deductions for them, inheritance rights, the ability to bring a foreign spouse into this country, the right to not testify against their spouse in court, hospital visitation rights, etc.

But I have the gall to want to construct my life around the man I love, and straight society throws one obstacle after another against me. And bigot Simon wants me to be a doormat and just accept my second-class fate.

I'll tell you what Simon - I'll stop discussing being gay when I have equal rights in this country.

Until then - why don't you go to hell.

Simon said...

LoafingOaf - Addenda: just to prove my point about how anyone not in the jihad is an infidel, see DTL's 8:23 PM comment.

Titus16 said...
"Larry Craig has stated he is not gay. Many of these men who frequent these places would probably say they are not gay because they don't live the "gay lifestyle"-you know actually out and comfortable with being gay. They just have gay sex, that's different to many of them-but definitely not gay."

That's like Clinton's excuse that getting a blowjob isn't considered sexual relations under whatever religion he claims to be from. If you're a man who regular has or seeks sex with other men, it's no defense to say you don't even like showtunes. If you claim that under your religion, money laundering isn't money laundering, you're still a money launderer. Res ipsa loquitur.

marklewin said...

downtownlad said...
First of all, I think Ann has no idea what it is like to be gay in this country. Especially for a gay 62 year old. She is completely out of touch.

Interesting observations. The posters you mentioned in your comment have no use for your analyses. They seem more interested in judging the behavior, furthering their political ideology, and attacking their opponents than they are in understanding the forces that might be operating in the lives of individuals with homosexual urges. They are simply unable to integrate the information you have offered into their world view. Come to think of it, it kind of reminds me of how our politicians approached Iraq. Realistic and useful analyses took a back seat to grandiose and unproven ideology, wishful thinking, and fixed judgements. Those who offered alternative, reality based, perspectives were mocked, stigmatized, demeaned, and dismissed.

Unknown said...

By the way, I wasn't lying about Simon.

1) He favors the repeal of Lawrence V. Texas, which would instantly throw gay people back into jail for having sex in the privacy of their own homes.

2) He is against gay marriage.

3) He is against gays having the right to adopt.

4) He is against gays in the military.

Funny - he says he doesn't care about me being gay, but he sure supports lots of laws based on that.

Simon = Liar.

Unknown said...

This is why I think so many of the Bush faithful are less than intellectual and so far to the right...they can barely stand up.

Clinton was bad because he got blowjobs from a consensual adult (woman)...but Craig should get the time to explain...trolling bathrooms for other men.

Imagine if this were Reid, Schumer, Edwards, etc...

Simon said...

downtownlad said...
"[H]ow DARE [Simon] accuse of revolving my life around being gay, when he thinks its ok for him to revolve his life around being straight."

Another example: DTL thinks my life revolves around being straight, because he cannot look at the world but through the lens of his sexuality and concludes that everyone else must also look at the world through the lens of their sexuality. In other words, he grants that some people may look at the world through a gay lens or a straight lens, but in doing so assumes everyone must actively and consciously contemplate their world in such terms.

Unknown said...

Simon's inability to understand my 8:23 post (which even Johnstodder said was good) proves that Simon is an anti-gay bigot.

Simon said...

Which, by the way, is also why he hurld mud in Ann's direction: she's not in the jihad either. so, infidel. You! A law professor!

John Stodder said...

LOS,

For a guy who baits commenters on the alleged grounds of lacking intelligence, you're amazingly dense.

Just go back and reread my post.

The reason men of Craig's generation and before were using public restrooms and other such places to meet potential sex partners was the...say it with me...social stigma against gays that forced them into the dark corners.

Go look up the story of Walter Jenkins, one of LBJ's most trusted and hardest-working advisers, who was nabbed in a Washington DC men's room in late 1964 just before the election. Johnson, who had covered up for Jenkins once before, tried again to no avail, and was forced to let Jenkins go because of the press attention to his case. Goldwater chose not to make an issue of it, but Jenkins' political career was finished. And why was that, LOS? Social stigma!

In the world we should demand, people like Craig and Jenkins should be able to connect with sex partners the same kinds of places straight people do, and not just in LA, SF or NY, but in Boise or Minneapolis too.

Unknown said...

Simon says: "My concern about gay marriage is rooted in my concern for messing around with a traditional institution older than recorded history."

WHO'S history?

And what definition of "marriage??"

And are you supportive of the 50%+ who...just don't make it here??

You not very bright, are you?

Simon said...

downtownlad said...
"By the way, I wasn't lying about Simon. 1) He favors the repeal of Lawrence V. Texas, which would instantly throw gay people back into jail for having sex in the privacy of their own homes. 2) He is against gay marriage. 3) He is against gays having the right to adopt. 4) He is against gays in the military."

Actually, you are categorically lying about 2-4, and partially lying about 1: I do favor overruling (not repealing, overruling - I know you're not a lawyer, but do try to keep up. You don't blend a sandwich or eat a glass of water. Laws are repealed, court cases are overruled, or not) Lawrence, but not for any reason relating to homosexuality, and you also misrepresent the consequences of that decision.

Here's the bottom line, DTL: post links to where I've said the things you say I've said. It should be easy. At least one link per allegation, but one per allegation will suffice. Go for it.

Synova said...

dtl, I don't think you heard what I said at all.

Yes, I know my brother is straight. So?

I know my parents had sex to have me. I still don't want to think about it.

You can't see the difference between knowing, between the public part and *knowing* about the private part?

I doubt very much that any of my children, if they are gay, will spend a whole lot of time in the closet. I *don't* expect them to have sex any time soon, gay or straight, because I believe sex before marriage is wrong. I *do* expect that they'll have sex before they get married anyhow because I'm not stupid. I *don't* believe in experimentation as a virtue. I don't believe I can do anything to keep someone who is homosexual from being homosexual but I can expect that they won't be a skank.

I think the things people did to try to cure children who didn't conform well enough to gender stereotypes is awful. I also think that people can go too far the other way, that parents can be so enamored of their own enlightened tolerance that they more of less decide that their children are gay long before they even reach puberty.

Unknown said...

And Simon is a liar again.

Every straight person revolves their life around being straight. Unless they're a nun or priest or a monk.

It's such an inherent part of one's makeup, that they cannot help but revolve their life around it.

Not every straight person gets married (90% plus do though), but they strive to meet the "right" person, find a soulmate, maybe have kids, etc. And if they don't - you know damn f%cking well that they're thinking about it. Or at least thinking about how to get laid.

But the laws are all in your favor - so you don't have to think about how gay people view those obstacles.

I'm gay - and I DO have to think about it. And no way I'm going to be silent about it.

Titus16 said...

Titus16 said...
"Larry Craig has stated he is not gay. Many of these men who frequent these places would probably say they are not gay because they don't live the "gay lifestyle"-you know actually out and comfortable with being gay. They just have gay sex, that's different to many of them-but definitely not gay."

That's like Clinton's excuse that getting a blowjob isn't considered sexual relations under whatever religion he claims to be from. If you're a man who regular has or seeks sex with other men, it's no defense to say you don't even like showtunes. If you claim that under your religion, money laundering isn't money laundering, you're still a money launderer. Res ipsa loquitur."

that may seem clintonesque semen but they are many men out there like that-trust me-I have met them.
Married, wife, children, have sex with men but don't identify as being gay. I don't quite understand it either but that is my sense of Larry Craig's identification of himself.

Unknown said...

Which, by the way, is also why he hurld mud in Ann's direction. - Simon

Another lie. I never hurled mud at Ann. I implied that she's so tolerant of gays that she assumes everyone else is as well.

That's a complement you idiot.

Unknown said...

John says...and I'm not kidding: "The reason men of Craig's generation and before were using public restroom and other such places to meet potential sex partners was the...say it with me...social stigma against gays that forced them into the dark corners."

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, sorry.

I didn't realize this was a "generational" problem.
(Being 2007 and all...)

John, you are beyond dumb.

KCFleming said...

titus,
You misunderstand. I already know from your writings that you aren't older than 35. My question was about what will happen to you when your youth is gone (i.e. when you become an aging Lothario), and the younger gays are mocking you instead. Because it will happen. Your chutzpa looks cool and raging and funky now, but in ten years or so, well, little need be said.

We all get old and die, titus, if we're lucky. Younger people who mock their elders for the loss of beauty are in for a very rude awakening. Some don't manage the transition very well; moreso those who place a premium on it, mistaking its power for permanence.

Unknown said...

Simon - Why don't you find a post where you're arguing for the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell, and where you clamor for full gay adoption rights.

You're implying that you don't favor these laws, but you're happy for these unconstitutional laws to stay on the books - oh - forever.

I call bullshit.

Unknown said...

Pogo asks...and I'm not kidding: "My question was about what will happen to you when your youth is gone (i.e. when you become an aging Lothario), and the younger gays are mocking you instead."

What?

You have some kind of machine that will slow your "aging" process?

This is just another case of someone viewing a gay...as some kind of alien being.

*I'll lay odds Pogo has a gay friends and relatives...that he doesn't even know about...YET.

Unknown said...

I'm not saying that he should be horsewhipped and expelled for being gay, I'm saying he should be horsewhipped and expelled for bringing the party into disrepute. If he'd been caught soliting a female prostitute, having sex in his office with an intern (male or female) or with his hand in the till, the same would apply. - Simon

Funny - I don't ever recall Simon calling for the resignation of Senator Vitter of Louisiana . . .

Titus16 said...

Semen, I think many of these men who are married with families and have gay sex don't think of themselves as gay is because they have stereotypes of what being gay is. You know, parades, drugs, cher, AIDS, etc.

I believe that many of these men are from the older generation. Younger men in general don't have as many of these hangups/prejudices.

Also, there is not "one gay" anymore. We are everywhere-wasn't that a bumper sticker. I happen to be big city urban, musclehead gay but with contradictions. I have never been to a gay pride parade, tend to not hang out with very many other gays, feel uncomfortable being around a large amount of gay people but am glad to know that I live in a city where I can jump in a cab in 5 minutes and have whatever I need to satisfy my appetite. I tend to think small town gays are weird but I know there are many out there. Maybe when I "mature" into my 40's I was settle in a farm in Vermont and sell Maple Syrup. For now, NYC and all it has to offer to right for me.

Simon said...

DTL - you don't get to ask me to prove a negative. You made assertions about my opinions, assertions that are false. If you can't back them up, the only thing you've accomplished is to hurt your own credibility.

Unknown said...

DTRL,
Simon's full of shit.

Unknown said...

Titus - I'm sure you'll fit comfortably into Bear culture when you turn 40 . . .

Synova said...

Some people just don't like parades.

I've never gone to an issue oriented parade either.

Titus16 said...

Pigo, I will have to cross the bridge when I reach 40 perhaps i will leave the big city behind.

For now, my life is where is should be. Financially stable, hot, horny, fabulous loft in Chelsea, fabulous job, and timeshare in fire island-this is the type of life that is made for those in my age range.

I don't have anything against older types I just don't want to fuck them-sorry.

Simon said...

Titus16 said...
"many of these men who are married with families and have gay sex don't think of themselves as gay is because they have stereotypes of what being gay is. You know, parades, drugs, cher, AIDS, etc."

Let me help clear the matter up concisely. If you're a man who enjoys having sex with men (or for that matter, does so consensually and habitually), you're gay. This stuff really isn't hard once you peel pack the layers of therapist self-defining bullshit.

Palladian said...

"For now, my life is where is should be. Financially stable, hot, horny, fabulous loft in Chelsea, fabulous job, and timeshare in fire island-this is the type of life that is made for those in my age range."

You're lying. You're probably 55 years old in Yonkers.

Simon said...

Titus16 said...
"Am i being against older people because I don't want to have sex with someone over 40-get over it bitch."

No, I just think you're missing out. Of course, I have no idea if men over 40 are hot, but women over 40 certainly can be. Taste is idiosyncratic, but you should try it.

Unknown said...

Well Simon, considering all you have to do to make your point is say:

"Gays should be given full and equal adoption rights in every state of this country. They should be treated exactly as straights, and no distinction for adoption rights should be made between a straight couple and a gay couple. No distinction should be made between a straight single person and a gay single person. Discriminatory laws, such as those in Florida, should be repealsed immediately.

But you haven't. When it's oh so easy to say.

So until then - my point stands.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong here.

Titus16 said...

I have actually never been to any political event as I am not that political. Sure I read a bunch of shit but as I have said before voted for Romney while in Cambridge and voted for Rudy and Bloomberg twice-probably doesn't qualify as someone independent in other peoples eyes.

If the republicans would get off the gay thing I would be there. I am into lower taxes, individual liberty, limited government, and live and let live.

Unknown said...

It's not Yonkers Palladian. It's Yonkers-on-Hudson.

http://www.curbed.com/archives/2006/03/21/go_north_young_hipsters.php

And it's cool.

Titus16 said...

Oh Pigo that doesn't mean I haven't tried over 40-au contraire.

I am very open to everything.

Titus16 said...

Pigo, it all depends what my options are and what time the clock says.
My requirements dissipate with each ticking minute.

Simon said...

downtownlad said...
"Funny - I don't ever recall Simon calling for the resignation of Senator Vitter of Louisiana . . . "

I seem to recall saying exactly that, and moreover, that he should be prosecuted. But if I didn't say it at the time, I'll certainly say it now.

Justin said...

Luckyoldson said...

Clinton was bad because he got blowjobs from a consensual adult (woman)...but Craig should get the time to explain...trolling bathrooms for other men.

You keep pointing out the distinction that Clinton had sex with a woman and Craig was looking for men. Why? You said:

As for homosexual behavior, I have no problem with anybody doing whatever they want.

If have no problem with homosexual behavior, then why do you keep pointing it out? Why is it so important to your argument that Craig was looking for men to have sex with? Is there any explanation other than that you disapprove of homosexual sex?

Unknown said...

Doesn't matter titus. If you're openly gay - you're a liberal. Doesn't matter how you vote.

I voted for Giuliani twice. Bloomberg Twice. Even voted for Bush in 2000 when he lied and said he was a compassionate conservative.

But I like it when other guys suck my cock, so that makes me a LIE-beral I guess.

Titus16 said...

Synova, I don't like parades in general-they bore me.

Also, political fags (who have done amazing things-thank you drag queens of christopher street-you paved the way) sometimes are too strident for my tastes. They tend to require quite a bit of attention.

Although, I love Larry Kraemer.

Palladian said...

Yeah, sorry to disparage Yonkers-on-Hudson. It actually is an ok place.

Palladian said...

"But I like it when other guys suck my cock"

A lot of straight guys that I've met say the same thing. That doesn't make you gay, it makes you a discerning consumer of fellatio.

Titus16 said...

I do think of myself as liberal-just because I voted for those candidates doesn't mean I think of myself as a liberal-I am fag for christsakes.

Titus16 said...

I do think of myself as liberal-just because I voted for those candidates doesn't mean I think of myself as a liberal-I am fag for christsakes.

Simon said...

downtownlad said...
"So until then - my point stands. But I'm happy to be proven wrong here. "

You're a fucking joke. A joke and a liar. You cruise in here, make a bunch of assertions about my views that are totally made up, demand that I provide evidence to the contrary (and by the way, asking someone to prove a negative is in all circumsntaces virtually a concession of defeat), and then claim you're open to being proved wrong? You have been proven wrong, you idiot. You've been proven wrong by your complete incapacity to substantiate your allegations.

Titus16 said...

I think of myself as a liberal not necessarily a democrat if that makes any sense.

I really feel like we are all bonding here tonight-hugs.

Titus16 said...

Hey I wonder what post of Annie "tough on terror, tough on tits" has ever received the most hits-this someone is pushing 300.

Titus16 said...

I have had women suck my cock in the past but it is never a good as a man-let's face it men know what make other men feel good.

Women just usually nipple around the head where a professional fag devours the entire shaft like a real cocksucker should.

Unknown said...

Justin said..."You keep pointing out the distinction that Clinton had sex with a woman and Craig was looking for men. Why?"

Justin, you have the brains of a fucking titmouse.

I don't care if Craig was looking to fuck a goat...he was looking for it...in a BATHROOM STALL.

Please, don't even try to twist what I've said.

You're really a slimy little fuck.

Unknown said...

Titus16 said...I think of myself as a liberal not necessarily a democrat if that makes any sense.

Titus, i don't believe you're even a real person.

Unknown said...

I think Simon just proved my point for me.

He OVBIOUSLY doesn't favor equal adoption rights for gays.

We already know he wants Lawrence V. Texas repealed - which would immediately put gays at risk of going to jail in 11 states for having sex.

And he is against gay marriage, and the 1200 rights that come with it.

And I'd put a lot of money that he is opposed to the repeal of DADT as well.

But regardless, any of the points above would make one an anti-gay bigot, i.e. Simon.

Titus16 said...

Poor Larry Craig-all he wanted was a little cock and now he is going to be a big joke. I don't blame him, he is a fag of a different generation and couldn't be honest with himself or others.

Wait till the youtube reenactments of the bathroom scene hit the web.

Can you imagine what this poor family is in for? He should of just resigned today-it would of been easier for him. Now he has the media after him to prove he is a liar and with that all the tricks will come out of the attic.

The pages, the union station trick who recognized him, the police officer will be on tv soon-oh the drama-how sad. He should of just retired and opened the first gay B&B in Idaho.

Unknown said...

Palladian said...A lot of straight guys that I've met say the same thing. That doesn't make you gay, it makes you a discerning consumer of fellatio.

Who the fuck are YOU hanging around with?

Titus16 said...

dtl i am really a real person. Somtimes my friends say the same thing.

Titus16 said...

dtl you sound too angry, you aren't going to get any of the homophobes on this site to come around so why bother?

Unknown said...

Justin,
What stalls do YOU hang in?

Idiot.

Unknown said...

I'm not angry titus - I just type fast.

Unknown said...

Besides Titus - I get off on this.

Which gay Senator should we out next? Lindsey Graham or Mitch McConnell?

Or would it be more fund to just predict how they'll be outed?

Titus16 said...

definitely Graham would be next-

Revenant said...

Simon - Why don't you find a post where you're arguing for the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell, and where you clamor for full gay adoption rights.

Amusingly enough this proves Simon's point about DTL -- that everyone who isn't with him is against him.

Simon's claim was that he has never opposed gays in the military or gay adoption. DTL demands "proof" in the form of past *advocacy* of gay adoption and gays in the military. I.e., the only way of proving you aren't an enemy of gay rights is to become a public advocate of gay rights.

Of course, being a public advocate of gay rights isn't actually good enough either. You have to be a public advocate of gay rights *and* vote a straight Democratic Party ticket, otherwise it doesn't count.

Simon said...

DTL - provide links to comments where I've asserted the positions you attribute to me. No links, no credibility. It's not my burden to disprove your lies. Let me help you out - go to google, paste in "Simon said..." site:althouse.blogspot.com and whatever search parameters you link. No links, no credibility.

Anonymous said...

What happened to your new moderation policy, Althouse?

marklewin said...

Simon said...

You're a fucking joke. A joke and a liar. ... You have been proven wrong, you idiot. You've been proven wrong by your complete incapacity to substantiate your allegations.

I seem to recall that on at least one occasion you have scolded your fellow commentors for using rude and offensive language.

Interesting....

Anonymous said...

Mindstep -- Come on, dude. Your whole schtick is tepid uncertainty -- all mealy and relativist, like the sophomore undergrad taking a philosophy course for the first time. You should get back to asking Important Questions.

marklewin said...

Simon:

Here is at least one example of your assuming the role of Althouse Hall Monitor:

See your comments to titus from Ann's Aug. 3 vlog where you write:

Simon said...
Titus, I think that's pretty disrespectful. Take it down a notch or several.

It's interesting that you would take it upon yourself to advise others on how to behave, especially in light of your current tirade in reaction to dtl. Hmmmmm... what does this behavior remind me of.....saying one thing and doing another.....it's on the tip of my tongue.....Oh shoot.....Oh well, it will probably come to me tomorrow morning.

Simon said...

Mindsteps said...
"I seem to recall that on at least one occasion you have scolded your fellow commentors for using rude and offensive language."

My recollection is of scolding (or at least mildly reproaching) other commenters for the way they've addressed themselves to our hostess, but I'd be happy to discuss the matter in relation to a specific comment.

Simon said...

Mindsteps - oh, we crossposted. But we crossposted in a manner that proves my point. I've certainly remarked on occaision that I think commenters are treating Ann disrespectfully.

Anonymous said...

Mindsteps -- It's interesting that you would criticize the behavior of others, since you profess over and over again to be uncertain about everything.

How can you be certain that Simon isn't right? Hmmmm?

Unknown said...

Goodness, we have a real cat fight here, don't we??

You boys...dating?

Look out Titus...if you are real. (Doubt it.)

marklewin said...

7 machos said: How can you be certain that Simon isn't right? Hmmmm?

The data speak for themselves.

The Exalted said...

uh, titus and dtl, think you can cool it down a bit?

you're making the wingers look normal

marklewin said...

Simon said...
Mindsteps - oh, we crossposted. But we crossposted in a manner that proves my point. I've certainly remarked on occaision that I think commenters are treating Ann disrespectfully

Simon....the above is the kind of rationalization that get's some people into trouble.....see for example Senator Craig.

Simon said...

Mindsteps said...
"The data speak for themselves."

Yes, but only for themselves. You would apparently have them speak for more. As you've pointed out (and I've agreed), I've criticized commenters for how they've spoken to Ann. I don't recall criticizing commenters for how they've addressed themselves to other commenters, and certainly not in the context of another commenter blatantly telling lies about them. So you're comparing apples with oranges.

Keep chatting, I'll be back in the morning. ;)

Anonymous said...

When The Exalted says you are over the line, you are over the line.

There's a difference between saying "bullshit" every once in awhile and ever saying "suck my hard throbbing rod of steel bone dry." Please make a note of it, people.

reader_iam said...

Well, blow me down--312.

All I can say is:

313!

****


('cept I'll bet there's been more in the time it's taken me to type this.)

Mortimer Brezny said...

Ann, by now it should be obvious that I had the best comment on this thread. Elevate me in an UPDATE! :)

Unknown said...

Mortimer Brezny:

See: SUCK-Ass.

reader_iam said...

Oops! Wrong again. I was 313. Jeez. There goes my credibility.

Sloanasaurus said...

Did Jr. High School start already? I thought summer vacation lasted another week.

Maxine Weiss said...

By the way: Welcome all the newcomers from Brooklyn College!

As you can see, these comments are indicative of high caliber mileau that your new Professor cultivates.

Your Professor is quite something, ain't she? Don't be shy...join in !

Good times on the very esteemed Althouse blog.

Sloanasaurus said...

Is there a double standard here. Is it okay for gays to use lewd sexually explicit language, but not okay for anyone else?

Revenant said...

Simon....the above is the kind of rationalization that get's some people into trouble.....see for example Senator Craig.

Ah yes, that most infamous of slippery slopes -- one minute you're asking that people be polite to their hostess, the next minute you're soliciting gay sex in a public bathroom.

PeterP said...

Do they use undercover cops to bust smokers?

They do in the UK now.

These gorgeous gals come up to you in pubs [bars if you like] twirling an unlit cigarette asking "You got a light Mac?", to which you on no account reply "No, but I've got a dark brown overcoat", because then you'll be busted.

You have to know the codes. It's all in the codes.

KCFleming said...

Re: "Is it okay for gays to use lewd sexually explicit language, but not okay for anyone else?"

Yes, much like court jesters are permitted such behavior. Their importance is hence similar.

Sixty Bricks said...

it is just gross. i used to see those people in bus depots and it was annoying to say the least. i hope the man can get some help.

Maxine Weiss said...

I could write a book about the things I've seen at the Laundromat !

Maxine Weiss said...

At the Bank, in the safety deposit box room--

In the Hospital linen closet--

Underneath the connector bridge at highway 111--

In the stairwell at the Federal Building--

...people are doing things

Maxine Weiss said...

Remember in the 1980s, when the Reagan jet needed to land at O'hare airport, but they couldn't because there were two dogs locked in copulation....

The Secret Service shot the dogs.

It was the only way they could get them to stop so that the plane could land.

Trooper York said...

Another in the just the punchline series...because he got hit in the face with more balls than Yogi Berra

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