September 26, 2005
"She was a follower, she was an individual who was smitten with Graner.... She just did whatever he wanted her to do."
Said the lawyer for Lynndie England. Duly noted, and duly convicted. All you "overly compliant" folks out there: heads up. You actually are expected to take responsibility for yourself.
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Was she doing that earlier when she tried to plead guilty? Graner derailed that attempt when he testified that she'd been following his orders. Was he trying to help her, by providing her the option to plead that she wasn't responsible, or was he manipulating the court? At the time, I recall her saying "He ruins everything," so she might have meant to take responsibility by pleading guilty.
How did the "Manson children"'s sentences differ from Charles'? There must be some dispensation to those under others' sway. Would you convict Jonestown parents for murder in the first degree if any of them had by accident survived and their children hadn't?
That may actually be the best Althouse post ever. :p
Taking responsibility for your actions is a good thing.
Bush.
Rice.
Rumsfeld.
General Miller.
Professor Yoo.
Perverters of Justice and apologists for torture: Reynolds, Volokh, Althouse.
Sad to say, this sort of defense has worked for women in the past, e.g., Hedda Nussbaum, who murdered (or connived in the murder of) her husband's and her adopted daughter. I hope it doesn't work here.
(Once more with proofreading...)
Also, this should count as a war crime, and war crimes seem to get special treatment, even if we pretend that "I was just following orders" cuts no mustard as an excuse. In reality, not everybody involved in atrocities gets summoned to the Hague. They certainly don't start with the littlest of fish.
I wish you would have given me this written question ahead of time, so I could plan for it... You know, I just -- I'm sure something will pop into my head here in the midst of this press conference, with all the pressure of trying to come up with an answer, but it hadn't yet."
* Bush - when asked if he had made any mistakes as President.
* Press Conference, April 13, 2004
I wonder if England were a man who idolized Graner rather than a woman in love with him, if people would make the same excuses. He couldn't help it, he just did whatever Graner wanted him to do, it's really not his fault...
I kind of doubt that would hold sway.
If it wouldn't, then you have to wonder why you would excuse England. Simply because she's a woman, she's inherently weak and vulnerable?
Aidin,
Yes, Ms. 7 to the Noggin, Shoot To Kill Innocents For the Betterment of the Majority Althouse agrees with you.
Would you please put up Ms. Althouse in a spare room then? She's a nice girl, a bit dangerous perhaps, but you two will get along famously. Her friend Reynolds is a notorious drunk, but he can charm a snake, so please feel free to extend your invite....
Yes, of course I have met Iraqis.
And yes, you're right too, as a victim of past culture wars, I am fighting in this culture war too.
I didn't start this culture war, Bush and Atwater, Bush and Rove did.
My battle is in the United States and for the United States The United States my parents and their parents fought for. The United States that came forward with the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights.
The United States that Ann takes for granted.
I am in a battle for that United States, and against the United States of your creation: the United States that had dragged its soldiers into crimes against humanity. The United States that tosses citizens in jail indefinitely and without a trial or access to a lawyer. The United States that denies science. The United States that demolishes FEMA. The United States that rules based on fear. The United States that arrests citizens for exercising their first amendment rights. The United States that scapegoats the powerless while covering up the criminal and corrupt and incompetent. The United States that is pro-corporation, and anti-the little guy and the little companies. The United States of Crony Capitalism. The United States of Pollution and Anti-globalwarming. The United States of anti-gay. The United States of Intolerance. The United States of Corruption. The United States of Black Box Voting.
The President of that United States is much more dangerous to me and to my family than Saddam Hussein ever was. That President has made my life much more at risk.
Yes Miklos, that is not the United States I was born in. And that is the United States I fight for.
I wish Ann would join that fight. She owes her life and livlihood to that United States. She owes her fellow citizens to join that fight.
We the People
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution....
These words and the words that follow were not written only for the Yangs, but for the Khoms as well. They must apply to everyone or they mean nothing, do you understand?"
Quxxo, your comments today have been very poor, and I am close to deleting them all, and now you've descended into Star Trek crap. Pick up the level of what you are writing and think about whether what you say makes sense and relates to the post, or I will methodically delete everything you've ever written in the comments.
Hmm. Daniel Drezner once said something very similar when I once "smote him" with an apt Star Wars analogy. So maybe it's me, but maybe it's you.
Anyway, I wish I could apologize for the Star Trek reference, but I can't. I love that episode!
Quxxo: It's irrelevant that you love it. Write your own blog and blog about Star Trek. Comments to my blog need to be relevant. You're just ranting. If you did that on your own blog, perhaps you'd get some readers, but right now, you are taking advantage of my hospitality, and you aren't being a good guest. You need to think more clearly about how to behave over here. I'm trying to maintain a civil community and an awful lot of commenters are contributing to this thing we are making together. You seem to believe that you have good values, but you've been tone deaf about the values of this community.
Perverters of Justice and apologists for torture: Reynolds, Volokh, Althouse
Add me! Add me! That's a pretty prodigious list.
But seriously, Mrs. England got exactly what she deserved, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would disagree.
quxxo,
I don't understand your comments. Althouse's post was tough on a woman who carried out torture> You respond by calling her a "apologist for torture". You're not making sense.
Quxxo, it would be interesting to discuss the United States your parents and Grandparents were "fighting for."
"...that is not the United States I was born in. And that is the United States I fight for...."
I would be interested to know what "United States" you would fight for. It seems that you have basically ruled out every possibility with your laundry list of rants.
Of course my favorite was a "United States that denies science." I admit I have not heard that one yet. I will be looking for it amongst the various placards at Camp Casey.
Hidden about halfway through an article about the administration's incompetence in the September 10 Boston Globe is the following tidbit:
Senators John McCain, Lindsey Graham and John Warner, all Republicans on the armed services committee, recently put forward an amendment to the defense appropriations bill. It states that US policy should be:
defined as the interrogation procedures authorized by the US Army Field Manual, which specifically prohibits cruel, degrading, or inhumane treatment. Second, all detainees held by the United States, in whatever invented category, must be registered with the International Committee of the Red Cross.
McCain, in explaining it, said 'This is not about who ''they" are, McCain has said repeatedly. It's about who we are. ''We are Americans... and we hold ourselves to humane standards of treatment of people no matter how terrible they may be. To do otherwise undermines our security, but it also undermines our greatness as a nation.
Since it has been proposed, dozens of retired generals, admirals, and other ranking officials have signed letters supporting the McCain amendment. Retired Brigadier General James Cullen, former chief judge of the US Army Court of Appeals, told a conference on national security policy in Washington that the legal experts of the military's own criminal system had been systematically excluded from the setting of interrogation and detention policy after 9/11.
Bush has threated to veto the bill if the amendment is included. (Go ahead, IMO: it would be the perfect legacy for Bush if his first veto was on a bill outlawing the use of torture).
Now granted, everything McCain says and does is subject to suspicion since he is running for President in 2008, but it is also clear that this is in response to a public that is fed up with actions on the part of America that just a few years ago would have been considered unthinkable.
is Quxxo 12 years old or what?
Aside from that, I think she was sucked in by Graner. Bottom line though is she is responsible for her own actions. She blew it. She will have a LONG time to sort it out.
She had sex with Graner and they took pics (those of course were not leaked by the defense...)
It's obvious that Rumsfeld is not ordering enlisted men and women to have sex and photograph such actions, so it seems to me it's easy to extend this logic to their other actions...
I don't understand how people still think Abu Ghraib was "sanctioned" by higher ups. Maybe a case could be made for a lack of management by the officers in charge of the facility...
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