Says Nadja Spiegelman in "America Has a Masculinity Crisis/A much-needed, nuanced conversation about masculinity and feminism today" (NYT).
She continues: "Sabrina Carpenter said that the key to her songwriting is just to call men stupid in as many ways as you can. I really understand where women’s anger comes from. I have lived it. But I also feel so much tenderness for my brother, for other men I know. And if I were hearing the same kinds of messages in reverse that were just, 'Women are trash,' I wouldn’t know how to begin to approach the world. And so I wonder how — specifically on the left, because I think that there are different answers to this on the right — specifically on the left, which is where I hear men are trashed the most loudly, what effect is this having on boys? Do they hear it? Do they feel it? Is it empowering for women? Is there another way to approach this?"
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146 comments:
"America Has a Masculinity Crisis"
America has an AWFL crisis. And the NYT is a contributing factor.
Back in 2003, my wife purchased T-shirts for my daughters saying "Boys are stupid. Throw rocks at them."
None of this androphobia is new.
I dunno. Maybe these women ought to collect a few more cats and have a think about it. I know plenty of happily-married women, young and old. The young ones mostly are mothers, some have more than 2 kids, their husbands have jobs and are fully engaged on raising them too.
Bettina Arndt has been writing about this for some time, fyi. I believe she would not call it a masculinity crisis, but a feminism crisis, which is much more accurate regarding the side that has put itself in trouble. Men can survive goofy women, even a huge number of them in some demographics, but goofy women will probably have more trouble with loneliness and regret.
It doesn't affect men. It affects women.
Looked at the first paragraph or two of the transcript. Did not have to go any farther to see "..the President is an accused rapist". No meaningful content will follow that.
Sabrina Carpenter said: "I really understand where women’s anger comes from... But I also feel so much tenderness for my brother, for other men I know." Yeah, and Goebbels said all Nazis had a "decent Jew" who they pointed to as an exception. Didn't affect their opinion of Jews in general.
Cancel her. Problem solved.
Are we the baddies?
Moondawggie said: "Back in 2003, my wife purchased T-shirts for my daughters saying 'Boys are stupid. Throw rocks at them.' " Still available at many places online. Couldn't find anyone offering "Girls are stupid..." t-shirts.
(I am finding some "Stupid Girl" and "Women Are Stupid" t-shirts, but no threats of physical violence. Yet...)
Meh, men are the White People of the sexes.
Just as the N-word triggers mortal offense when a White person says it to describe a Black person, yet Cracker provokes nothing but laughter from the White person called that by a Black person.
It fascinates me that women really seem to have no idea what men talk about within their circles of trust.
Whenever I question why I am voting R, I think of cultural stuff like this like this. D's have been the woman party for decades. R's have been the male party for decades.
That is before even taking into account race and sexual preference, which drive the D and R gap even further.
Sabrina Carpenter said that the key to her songwriting is just to call men stupid in as many ways as you can.
There are sexist extremes on both sides of the gender divide. But on one side, it's culturally punished and career threatening, and on the other it's culturally rewarded and career enhancing.
The ideology of the left requires white people to hate themselves ("whiteness"), and for children to hate their fathers ("patriarchy"). So what they are seeing is that any person who likes white people, or their father, is starting to vote Republican. See also the Jews ("Zionism").
An honest journalist has a question about this damn ideology.
"Oh no, no no no no no no no no no no."
Why should men care about the “Men are trash” meme when there are more rockets to build?
Lovers reproduce, and haters die out.
"What we need to do is import another group of voters."
Or, another possibility, swipe right!
Original Mike nails it. Once they figure out the substitution game for male vs female; maybe then can move onto left vs right (which they call Nazis while excusing Platner and ignoring left wing violence).
Everyone knows the left (and particularly leftist women) are more tolerant than anyone else. (If you don’t know that, they’ll tell you.) Of course, they show that tolerance by hating anyone that it’s different than them.
"...Did not have to go any farther to see "..the President is an accused rapist"..."
Ahh, but... which President ?
Nadja Spiegelman must have seen some of those James Talerico clips that were going viral this week and felt nauseated and thought, My God. What have we done? What have we done?
The say that markets can remain irrational longer than investors can stay solvent. So too can women can stay unreasonable longer than men can stay sane.
I have new for you ladies. Men are just as insecure and needing of approval as you are. we're just trained to not show it.
The sex education our children get is horrible, and the sex advice is worse.
Probably the easiest and laziest way to make one feel better about oneself is to point to other people and pronounce that they are the Bad people. You don't have to be good yourself, or do good things, just not be one of Them.
men are trash - except for corrupt White Tim Walz and corrupt White Keith Ellison.
White leftist men get a pass.
the left hate men, but are OK with men in dresses beating your daughters in sports and waving their dicks in your daughters locker rooms
They say pimpin' ain't easy, but neither is not pimpin'.
I just think a lot of dudes are taking Proverbs 21:9 to heart: "It is better to live in a corner of a roof than in a house shared with a contentious woman."
@Original Mike, We need to start calling AWFLs what they actually are:
"Nuns of the State”
Is it empowering for women?
Easy to answer. You do not empower yourself by trashing anyone else. At best you drag them down to your level.
And if I were hearing the same kinds of messages in reverse that were just, 'Women are trash‘ …
An AWFL lot of them are.
Diversitism (i.e. class-disordered ideologies), including: feminism, masculinism, racism, albinophobism, etc. #HateLovesAbortion
Men and women are equal in rights and complementary in Nature. Go forth and reconcile.
For a long time, feminism has been feeding women a package of lies, promises, participation trophies, and permissions to be selfish, awful people. Some really get into it. Of course, men can be awful too, but at least they are not encouraged toward it. Just the opposite.
The work most women have chosen will be much more likely to be replaced by AI than that of men. This is not going to go over well. Men need to invest in some noise-cancelling headphones.
Now is the time on SlateStarCodex when Scott Alexander dances eloquently upon this issue's corpse (long read). Deiter, play Kraftwerk.
I could only skim the conversation they were having. These are three people who have no real hardcore experience in the world. They deploy a word salad of catchphrases cliches and other clever groupings of buzzwords to try and frame their discussion so as not to offend other progressives.
That said, men need to stop complaining about feminist and just get on with their lives. Be an unapologetic old school stoical man. Avoid the noise. Ignore the craziness. Develop and hone your skills, be strong and fit and healthy
Living well is the best revenge.
"That said, men need to stop complaining about feminist and just get on with their lives."
The complaining is mostly done by women, as with this article. 90% of the time we complain about this stuff is when the subject is brought up by a woman. It's not beneficial for us to bring it up. It will immediately be seen as a weakness and unmanly, because it is.
The use of the word "empowering" is a red flag.
Given how horribly so many child stars end up, Sabrina Carpenter probably ought to keep her mouth shut. But she's probably just an ignorant pawn in the showbiz game.
I've watched my wife give birth to children.
I'm happy to slave in the mines.
"The complaining is mostly done by women, as with this article. 90% of the time we complain about this stuff is when the subject is brought up by a woman."
I have never talked about this topic in real life (as opposed to the Althouse blog). Literally never. Not that it's not important, and not that it's not real. But because, what would be the point?
I remember when making generalization on the basis of color or sex was a bad thing. Only when convenient, I guess.
There is no way around this basic fact: women and men are different. Very different in lots of important physical and psychological ways. They are always going to be different. Society works better if we don't try to make men into women and vice versa.
Maybe she is hanging out with stupid women like the ones that used to populate jezebel or wonkette (is that still a thing)
Carrie underwood did it with more wit
"I have never talked about this topic in real life (as opposed to the Althouse blog). "
Same here. I've considered bringing it up in conversations, but always decided to just stay quiet. Nothing good would come of it.
Shes firing off warning flares and doesnt get it
So a lot of women are treating men very badly and it's a "masculinity" crisis?
The war on men and women. #HateLovesAbortion
The same conjunction of prejudice and presumption that led a white jury to convict the Scotsboro boys of rape leads NYT writers and readers to convict Trump of rape. .
It won't last forever, but Sabrina Carpenter at the present moment has tons of privilege. I don't know any of her songs, but she's definitely good looking and whatever she says, no matter how dumb, a significant proportion of the male population will nod in agreement and sincerely admire her wisdom.......It will pass when she starts looking like Madonna, but right now she offering some valuable insights into the nature of men and our society. Everyone familiar with her body of work recognizes what a valuable asset she is to our community.
Women (and animal females more broadly) evolved to compete through the strength and status of their mates. Females DEMAND, DEMAND, DEMAND that their spouse be 'superior' to themselves and ideally to all other males. This follows directly from the 'provider' role for pregnant women and mothers with small children. The dependents would all starve without a solid and reliable male (hence, black women have been marrying the government since The Great Society of 1965).
Sabrina Carpenter, along with a bunch of angry female singer-songwriters of the 1990s Lilith Festival, got stuck in the pre-mating phase of being a woman. They'd change if they found "Mr. Right" -- a superior powerful (man) horse they can ride and control. Or, they'll become nuns or lesbians. That works for many.
".. I really understand where women’s anger comes from. I have lived it..."
could some woman here please explain to me..
Where this anger comes from?
What this anger is about?
Why this anger is useful?
When this anger showed up?
and finally..
How this anger is MY FAULT?
i'll wait
I really understand where women’s anger comes from. I have lived it.
I don't understand. Not every bad thing that happens in your life is because you are a woman. In fact, in the USA of 2026, almost nothing bad that happens in your life is because you are a woman.
It fascinates me that women really seem to have no idea what men talk about within their circles of trust.
Well, other than the Roman Empire, of course!
Not that it's not important, and not that it's not real. But because, what would be the point?
Spot on.
I unfortunately found myself sucked into reading comments on an obviously clickbait feminist Facebook post the other day. Almost all participants appeared to be female. It started off with the somewhat benign complaint “men don’t wash their asses”. Now I wasn’t aware of that but I’ll buy the argument that men aren’t as hygiene conscious as women. It quickly escalated to the accusation that male physicians purposely punish and torture females, going so far as withholding anesthesia whenever they can get away from it. This prompted the idea that not one cent should be spent on men’s health until all female ailments had been not only treated but actually cured. Things disintegrated further to where some wished for the death of all men and ultimately bottomed out with the statement that all men should be killed. At that point I had to stop reading.
What was really disturbing was the fact that I didn’t come across one dissenting voice in the hundreds of comments I browsed. It all left me with a profound sense of sadness and the hope that the loving, sane women in my life aren’t actually the outliers in what appears to be an increasingly mentally deranged world.
Moondawggie said...Back in 2003, my wife purchased T-shirts for my daughters saying "Boys are stupid. Throw rocks at them."
A lot of boys would think that's flirting. And in a lot of cases it is.
I read part of the article. It goes on forever, and I gave up on it. The part I read, the NYT sages agree that the patriarchy is similar to white supremacy and that when it is overcome, we will all benefit. I wonder if those sages have ever read about the New Soviet Man and how under communism our ills and troubles will disappear.......The patriarchy is a corporate enterprise. A lot of women are invested in it and had something to do with its creation. Human nature is not a construct of bourgeoise imperialists.
I liked sheryl crow back in the day
“I like women who haven’t lived with too many men. I don’t expect virginity but I simply prefer women who haven’t been rubbed raw by experience. There is a quality about women who choose men sparingly; it appears in their walk, in their eyes, in their laughter and in their gentle hearts. Women who have had too many men seem to choose the next one out of revenge rather than with feeling. When you play the field selfishly everything works against you: one can’t insist on love or demand affection. You’re finally left with whatever
you have been willing to give which often is: nothing.” ― Charles Bukowski
Probably good advice for both sexes actually.
Perhaps this is nothing new, but pre-internet we didn't know it.
@Original Mike, the ultimate source of almost all cultural anomalies of the last 20 years. Global civilization has been overexposed to how the sausage is actually made...turns out that's not appealing.
I got your much-needed, nuanced conversation right here.
Given how horribly so many child stars end up, Sabrina Carpenter probably ought to keep her mouth shut. But she's probably just an ignorant pawn in the showbiz game.
To be fair, Carpenter said that the key to writing a hit song these days is to call men stupid, which is not the same as saying that she herself believes that men are stupid.
Chuck Ross on X: "He also said this in the sermon: "When I use the word 'woman,' it should not be understood as an exhaustive term, but rather as a lens through which we understand, examine, and interrogate patriarchy." https://t.co/DtpGXN97Yv" / X https://share.google/WCCMITwt68DGU63CS
Disappointing there weren’t some conservative feminists in on the conversation.
This was the top rated comment at the NYT:
“Keep subjecting little boys to discipline in schools for not acting with the discipline of little girls. Keep telling them that, "the future is female." Keep ignoring school underperformance and dropping college matriculation and graduation rates. Keep normalizing terms like, "toxic masculinity." Keep repeating the shibboleths about gender pay inequity without accounting for hazard pay, full vs. part-time time roles and choices of professions. Keep subjecting men on college campuses to disciplinary proceedings without any semblance of due process. Keep sending them to fight fruitless wars without providing for proper healthcare and support when they return. Keep insisting that men are inherently threatening and more dangerous to women than bears. Keep favoring mothers in custody disputes as a matter of law and accepted social policy. Keep demanding that society redefine the very concept of masculinity itself. Above all, keep dismissing observations about the foregoing on the grounds of historical injustice and that such complaints are overblown.
Keep doing all that. See how it works out.
I'm a feminist. I believe, strongly, that men and women should enjoy equal opportunities, equal protection under law and bodily autonomy and security. I don't ignore the challenges faced by girls and women. But we ignore the way that the deck is being stacked against many men in our society, and dismiss the results as incel carping. We're living with the consequences.”
Yes that is their goal they dont want normal culture look at the way they shreak at erica or caroline like banshees
I'll be specific: Sabrina Carpenter's work is trash.
Remember that long shot of the huffington post editors all whote women (future awfls)
.."Back in 2003, my wife purchased T-shirts for my daughters saying "Boys are stupid. Throw rocks at them.."
i remember these shirts, from back around 1996.
i knew quite a few coeds that proudly wore them.
the thing that the boys did that was stupid was either:
a) not liking THESE girls
or
b) not being hot enough for THESE girls to like.
Circa the 1980s there were T-shirts and bumper stickers that said "No Fat Chicks".
At first Elizabeth Bennet had a very low opinion of Mr. Darcy. Likewise, Cathy Earnshaw detested Heathcliff when he first showed up. Plus ça change....
The male side of this, from Mrs Instapundit.
His Side: Men Speak Out on Dating, Marriage, and Life in America
by Helen Smith PhD (Author)
We do have a crisis, and the bulk of it is on women.
so, i just did some research.. and:
Sabrina was born in the later half of the last century..
Sabrina is almost Thirty..
Sabrina was a Disney child star (started there @ 13?)..
Sabrina was almost certainly sexually abused and used there..
currently Sabrina is rich, but not SUPER rich; and successful;
but no longer SUPER successful (~$38 Million net worth)
it's Safe To Say, that her clock is ticking down.
I feel kinda sad for her.. She should think about doing a cover of Springstein's "Glory Days"
"I'm a feminist. I believe, strongly, that men and women should enjoy equal opportunities, equal protection under law and bodily autonomy and security."
Where do I apply for the opportunity to give birth?
You can't build yourself up by tearing others down. That's the root of this whole issue.
Hopefully teh rock-throwing girls find out that boys throw harder and more accurately than girls.
Who knew Mother Nature was such a misogynist?
The Griefs of Women
The griefs of women are quiet, rustle
like crinoline or whisper like
the tearing of old silk;
hum like appliances, give off the sharp sweet smell
of burnt out motors; tap like typewriter keys.
The strengths of women are quiet,
but hardy as the weed that finds its cranny
between the concrete block of the sidewalk
and the concrete slab of the wall, and grows there,
and blooms there.
Men are bums.
We're really better than they are.
Brand X Poetry "The Griefs of Women" after Adrienne Rich
Well...she's about 30 years behind what has taken place to destroy boys and men in America. But...no worries. Conservative men are still around and still kicking ass. Beta boys are in trouble, though. They so want to be allies.
Comparisons, person to person, in any vein, leads to two bad outcomes: Either (1) you feel superior to others, which is wrong, or (2) you feel inferior to others which is also wrong and depressing. The root of the problem is enmity - an attitude and posture adopted by a prior choice that some other person or group is bad or wrong or "less than."
The solution? Love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you and despitefully use you.
If that's the "Key to songwriting" then I've now found the reason I don't listen to many new songs.
People need to stop looking at words like "Patriarchy" and look at the real world.
Is it any wonder that these women do not end up with worthwhile men?
Men are so trash. Go Lesbo then. Who cares.
I don't care is they don't end up worthwhile men. LOL. Picking a good mate is up to each person. What to end up with a 2nd rater? Go for it. Want to end up a cat lady? your choice. What to be a mistress? Go for it.
Giving women advice on anything is usually a waste of time. And when it comes to their love life "usually" becomes "always".
I remeber that Fake Michelle Goldberg saying publically that Marriage was a trap for women, men were useless, etc. And a few years later she's boasting about her marriage and her new baby.
Not a new thing. Going back to when TV sets started showing up in homes, Moms and Secretaries have always been the brains of the outfits and Dads and Bosses have been on the receiving end of most of the jokes.
Best news EVER, was notice that some guy recently eliminated the entire HR dept. at his company.
white left females like tim walz (lol) and antifa thugs.
the dems love to burn everything to the ground and then ask "why don't you like us?'
Like the basiliska
Go touch grass
“ People need to stop looking at words like "Patriarchy" and look at the real world.”
Why do we have patriarchies, but almost never matriarchies?
My view is that matriarchies eventually become nonfunctional. Groups, and esp large groups, of women inevitably cannot plan long term. They can’t be hard hearted when it’s necessary.
Think of the overly feminized left these days, putting compassion for violent criminals over getting them off the streets. People are dying because repeat offenders are almost automatically released, if their childhood was the least bit deprived. And, almost inevitably, when they aren’t punished for their lesser crimes, they move into greater and greater crimes. We are seeing people arrested over 90 times, without much in consequences, escalating to murder and rape.
One of the funniest parts of this was AOC, supposedly an ultra-feminist wearing a Muslim headscarf the other day, in solidarity with Muslims. In Iran, these days, women refusing to wear them gets a beating, if not execution. AOC, and the rest of the feminists are showing solidarity with that. Many Muslim cultures are rape cultures, where women, and especially white women, are asking for it, by dressing to our Western norms in public. And somehow our feminists are showing solidarity with the rapist religious fanatics running Iran, because we are beating them so badly in our war with them. By wearing the same head coverings hated so intensely by Iranian women.
"Best news EVER, was notice that some guy recently eliminated the entire HR dept. at his company."
It was as if millions of bottlenecking HR obstructionists cried out in terror, and weren't suddenly silenced.
A great disturbance in the farce.
"Women are trash" songs have been a staple of popular music (as well as "men are trash" songs) for a long time, alongside "she left me and broke my heart" and "you are the most wonderful thing ever".
I don't think the songs are the problem.
“Not a new thing. Going back to when TV sets started showing up in homes, Moms and Secretaries have always been the brains of the outfits and Dads and Bosses have been on the receiving end of most of the jokes.”
But this doesn’t really work outside the home and parts of the office. Because groups of women seem incapable of thinking strategically and long term. Partly because women, in a group, make decisions democratically, after giving everyone a say. Even the dumbest ones. Male groups are hierarchical. The male decision model scales well. The female one doesn’t.
@Bruce Hayden, 200 women talking in a sewing-circle for several months about how to get 1 man to change that broken lightbulb. That's a 200:1 ratio. It's useless...but it scales!
Edward O Wilson's long ago text, Sociobiology, has a chart depicting the differences in investment for the sexes. He draws upon parental investment theory, originally formalized by Robert Trivers in 1972.The theory posits that the sex making the greater initial investment in an offspring (women) becomes the limiting resource and evolves to be more selective in mate choice, while the sex with the smaller initial investment (men)competes for mating opportunities.
I assert that this (along with its corollary psychological, social, and physiological differences) is the foundation of male/female conflict. It will always be so.
"Of course, men can be awful too, but at least they are not encouraged toward it. Just the opposite."
Women can say and do things free of consequences that a man would get his lights punched out for.
Glad for xhamster.
Long listen but worth it I think, about men in college
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NC6w2gkro4
What is a man?
Bruce Hayden said...
“ People need to stop looking at words like "Patriarchy" and look at the real world.”
Why do we have patriarchies, but almost never matriarchies?
Because if men want to they can just take over.
If women are in control of a country or city and an invading force of men wanted to they could take over at will.
At some point women have to convince men that they should fight and die for the women.
But the question that modern women refuse to answer: “What do men get for fighting and dying to protect the women?”
There used to be a contract in society. Men live up to the chivalrous standards and women try to be good partners that respect their protectors. Monogamy is usually the mutual agreement and respect and it was the expectation.
But women are hardwired to find the biggest toughest jerkiest male and have his children and men are hardwired to impregnate as many women as possible.
Thus humans came up with societal constructions to raise ourselves above animals.
Then the 60’s happened. Now we are back to 20% of the men and 70% of the women having sex and raising children like animals.
Mason G said...
"Of course, men can be awful too, but at least they are not encouraged toward it. Just the opposite."
Women can say and do things free of consequences that a man would get his lights punched out for.
This was generally fine. Before women’s suffrage and equality men held all of that responsibility. Most women were against being able to go into debt and having to pay taxes on property they inherited from their male counterparts who died.
But women are all for rights and they are completely against responsibility.
Could trashing men be some kind of reflexive reaction to the death of Roe, the sacred sacrament of second wave feminism.
Stupid Girl
DNA studies show that in the history of our species, most men never reproduced. We had managed to address this problem with a level of culture that that seemed to address the problems of both sexes, but ultimately women seemed to prefer the old ways, and given the power, have chosen to return to that.
My comment about Proverbs reminded me of something I've been thinking about a lot lately regarding this issue. Human cultural and religious history is filled to the gunwales with the wisdom of innumerable sages and parables that suggest an intimate familiarity with negative male/female relations that predates the information explosion of the internet and cell phones. So intimate in fact it suggests these ancient observers were familiar with sexual antagonism and female hypergamy that far pre-dated their already ancient selves. Self-destructive culture is in fact real, and that would logically extend to adjacent pre-and-post-agricultural societies from the ancient world that did in fact self-destruct all on their own similar to the way some theorize several highland New Guinea tribes with detestably self-destructive male-female relations and in demographic decline were scheduled to, except white people contacted them just a few decades before that could happen.
Somehow without the internet they were still able to see all this, and we didn't actually need the internet to read a little deeper into what these ancients - almost all of them men - were actually trying to say about what many now regard as arcane tribalistic sexual regulations with no bearing on modern human wetware. Human wetware hasn't changed in 300,000 years, and neither have the rules governing genes having a future.
They had closer proximity to actual pre-modern demographic collapses, possibly a front-row seat. What we regard today as outdated commandments from ancient sky-gods might be better understood by us today as warnings, warnings about the end-stage of certain sexual and lifestyle choices that in their time would've been totally ineffective, so they just skipped that part and literally said "GOD SAYS DON'T DO THAT!" So now everyone's still a psychotic ape grasping god-like power in the palm of their hand while some attempt to put into modern words those still extremely relevant ancient warnings that all sins against demography will be punished in the next life AND this one. It's the source of all this angst, but people keep saying this is all unprecedented. It's not. This shit has clearly happened many times before the modern record and that anachronistic foolishness people keep poo-pooing is in fact ancient wisdom speaking for people who can't warn us about how deadly this is because their spiritual and genetic deaths were connected.
I would tell Sabrina and her fans to keep regarding Ecclesiastes and Chanakya and Tacitus and the Rambam as crusty dead chauvinists along with every modern manosphere chud they despise. But here's the thing...a chud can still be right.
Feminism has marched in place for 150 years. Read 5 or six pages of Choreographies (Derrida and Christie McDonald), read past jargon, there's enough plain language to hit insights.
In particular what women's place is, is to make places. "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
Not swapping sexual identity cards, in particular.
pdf of interview
"what effect is this having on boys?" she says. I don't think she will like it. I don't much like it, but it is understandable.
"Long listen but worth it I think, about men in college"
TL;DR version:
Women: Unhappy, we want this.
Also Women: We got what we wanted, still not happy.
Sheepishly, I admit I did not know who "Sabrina Carpenter" was, or why anyone would care what she thinks or says. So I looked her up on Google. What I found was an embarassment. Apparently she is the latest incarnation of the ancient goddess, Inanna/Ishtar. Mesopotamian goddess of sex and war. Able to change genders. Worshipped by means of debauched, drunken orgies. Sound about right?
RSM: Great callback to Psychotic Apes With Godlike Powers. CC, JSM
The Male Lineage (Y-Chromosome DNA)When geneticists trace paternal ancestry using Y-chromosome DNA, they find that a disproportionate number of males historically dead-ended in their lineage.
The Ratio: Anthropological data and global genetic variation studies show a consistent ratio where, on average, only 1 out of every 2 or 3 men passed down their Y-chromosome, compared to 4 out of 5 women.
Extreme Bottlenecks: Certain prehistoric periods (like the Neolithic era roughly 7,000 years ago) saw this skew hit extremes, with Y-chromosome diversity dropping so sharply that it equated to a reproduction ratio of only 1 man for every 17 women.
Females routinely get into, choose, or are forced into harems, brothels, and reproductive cults (e.g., see Utah's fringes). The thing is that they successfully reproduce even when loose in the head or when they don't actively seek to reproduce.
Social affiliation and mothering instincts are extremely powerful in women. See 2026 research that 5% of human female brains dissolve with childbirth ("Baby Brain"). They then become caregiving specialists, even when previously loopy in the head and now consumed with baby talk.
Males spend their youth as weak, uncompetitive, poor strugglers. Only when they prove themselves through wealth or physical development do women notice. Males who are loopy never get a second glance and never breed.
Feminism is a fizzy modern epiphenomenon ("first-world problem") that's unrelated to anything concrete. Feminism's goals are ever changing because it's what happens to be the fashionable ideology/religion of those coming of age. When tied to a reproductive mandate religion (e.g., old-school Christianity), those coming of age thoughts are an express train to motherhood.
Women would rather help Kris Kristofersen make it through the night three or four times a year, and raise his kids alone than raise Don Knots kids with him at her side for life. There is no changing it.
You say something enough, they will think it's true. Facts don't matter.
Tl;dr: Men suck, except for the hot ones.
The tv claims are untrue until very recently. Sure it's a worrisome development. But it does not reflect the vast majority of tv history, which is mostly what we screen and watch now. Nor does it reflect movies.
I still entirely agree that there is an intense cultural backlash against men, white men in particular. I blame it on the schools. Maybe the problem is I'd rather have Don Knotts aound every night than have to endure Kris Kristofferson, great songwriter that he was, because he was a commie.
William: I don't find Dan Carter's version of The Scottsboro Boys historically accurate. And I know Dan Carter and likely far, far much more than you know about the lynching era. Both "the Boys" and the women were indeed used by authorities North and South: both were arrested, and the women tried to flee, too. One became a well-paid communist mouthpiece; the other just wanted privacy, but there is ample evidence that they were brutally raped. Was the system fair? Not to the "boys," but also not to them. People like Dan Carter just piled on decades later, lazily scoring low-hanging-fruit for their vitae by abusing poor southern white women.
Republican men define success by being wealthy enough to be a father and support a family.
Democrat women define success by being wealthy enough to no longer need a man or a family.
If politics is a numbers game, then the numbers favor the GOP. There are roughly 268 million Americans over the age of 15. Just 42.7 million are women who have never been married. (Another 14.6 million are divorced women).
By contrast, there are over 136 million married Americans. Married couples -- plus all the Gen Z men who aspire to be married -- are BY FAR the most important demographic.
The Democrats' Greatest Fear.
Fred Drinkwater said...
Long listen but worth it I think, about men in college
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NC6w2gkro4
I viewed it. It’s probably AI slop narrated by an annoying text to speech reader. There’s some truth to it but the supposed author comes across as machinelike and the idea of a long time feminist studies professor giving a damn about young men is completely unrealistic.
I love reading these from newest to oldest, I get a chance to ponder how Kris Kristopherson versus Don Knotts became a topic
“Women would rather help Kris Kristofersen make it through the night three or four times a year, and raise his kids alone than raise Don Knots kids with him at her side for life. There is no changing it.”
My partner’s kids went to school with Kristofersen’s kids. Her impression was that he was a pretty much a drunk, whenever they saw him at a school function.
So he wasnt acting
The problem with female hypergamy in this context is that while males can potentially father a lot of kids, they rarely can support that many of them. What you get with marriage, or at least pair bonding, is father’s supporting their children. And statistically, that works better than when one male produces a lot of kids with a lot of women. Whenever you see a lot of monogamy in a species, something like that is the cause. Females in those species statistically having more living grandchildren. Darwin likes that. We are likely in that category because of our long dependency in your young. Driven, in a large part by our large brain size.
The other side to this is that unpaired males, not getting sex, have little incentive to work - because that is the main driver for males working (supporting their families). We are seeing that more and more these days, with our ample resources in our society. A few alpha, and beta males having sex with a lot of females, while the incels, those guys, in an earlier age who would have been pair bonded, having a reason to work hard, now don’t anymore.
My main observation after reading this thread: women are treated as the variable and men as the constant. In that case, why are vasectomy rates in the US, UK, Australia, and Canada rising, with particular spikes among men in their late twenties and thirties - including childless men? This is men choosing, on their own, to never reproduce. If men were straining against female reluctance to have kids, this number would be near zero. It isn’t.
So whatever the reasons for declining birth rates, they’re acting on both sexes all over the world.
"This is men choosing, on their own, to never reproduce."
Keeps them out of family court, so there's that...
Fertility rates as they decline are really interesting. Here’s an example:
Israel, most pro child developed country:
Secular Jews: were at 2.2 projected to fall to 1.7 by the end of the 2030s
Modern Orthodox: from 4.4 to 3.9
Haredi: down from 6.5 to 6.0, projected to keep declining to 4.3
Israeli Arab: down from much higher rates to 2.86 and falling, projected to 2.0
Christian and Druze: low and falling (couldn’t get actual numbers)
In late 2025 population growth in Israel fell below 1% for the first time since Israel’s founding driven by declining fertility across all sectors (plus net emigration).
Howard said...
Extreme Bottlenecks: Certain prehistoric periods (like the Neolithic era roughly 7,000 years ago) saw this skew hit extremes, with Y-chromosome diversity dropping so sharply that it equated to a reproduction ratio of only 1 man for every 17 women.
A million years or so of evolution. Tough to fight.
Then someone came up with the idea of pair bonding. Men and women marry and stay together. Raise children. There were numerous benefits from society. Turns out that men and women can bond with the first 1 or 2 partners they copulate with.
But it takes shame and restraint and severe social consequences to fight all of that evolutionary programming.
Christ had some answers.
Eva Marie said...
My main observation after reading this thread: women are treated as the variable and men as the constant. In that case, why are vasectomy rates in the US, UK, Australia, and Canada rising, with particular spikes among men in their late twenties and thirties - including childless men? This is men choosing, on their own, to never reproduce. If men were straining against female reluctance to have kids, this number would be near zero. It isn’t.
So whatever the reasons for declining birth rates, they’re acting on both sexes all over the world.
The issue is split. about 30% of men and 60% of women choose dominant male harem mating patterns.
70% of men and 40% of women choose pair bonding.
@Achilles: Sources, please - and I don’t mean pulled out of thin air.
Eva Marie said...
@Achilles: Sources, please - and I don’t mean pulled out of thin air.
Howard posted them for you.
Deal.
So no sources. That’s what I figured.
BS was a lot easier before AI.
Although, if we can call AI making stuff up “hallucinations,” we can call humans making stuff up “wishful thinking.”
The only masculinity "crisis" is that more and more young men are not falling for the "man up" manipulation that got men killed in war or to take on a miserable marriage.
So the crisis is the golden goose is cutting back. If men don't kill themselves at work, then there are fewer tax dollars to for the dependent class to live off of.
Now the real "crisis" is the women complaining they can't find a husband after 15, 20 years of bed partner hopping. Should have locked down at least one of the guys along the way.
The denigration of boys in school, college and in media has been going on for 40 years, two generations. Good luck trying to turn back time.
Eva Marie said...
So no sources. That’s what I figured.
LOL.
You are so lame. Don't act stupid. You know exactly what Howard said and you know exactly what I am talking about.
You are just being an intellectual coward and completely boring to talk with. Really just a whiny loser.
Climb that ladder you fucking loser men.
And if you climb that ladder then the patriarchy is oppressing women.
Standard female delusion chart.
If the chart makes you mad stay mad.
Otherwise just go look at dating apps where there are mountains of data on how dating is working in the modern era.
20% of the men and 80% of women are having sex. The dating apps don't lie for jackholes like Eva who are deluded and whiny losers.
Average and below average women have no problems getting laid. Average men get absolutely nothing except disrespect.
"My main observation after reading this thread: women are treated as the variable and men as the constant"
I think that it is just the opposite. Women are what women have always been, and feminism has upended the period of sexual socialism (benefitting men) that obtained for a few centuries, and we are right back where we started, that women are largely choosing (even if they don't realize it at the time) to mate with the most sexually desirable men.
Why does a man care if a woman has been going on dating apps when she is lonely, and picking from the buffet there before she decides to "settle down"? It's nobody's business but hers, right? Well, the men who didn't care if they were raising somebody else's kids have dropped out of the gene pool.
My partner’s kids went to school with Kristofersen’s kids. Her impression was that he was a pretty much a drunk, whenever they saw him at a school function.
People who write, sing, act about life and love tend to drink a good bit - or use drugs a good bit - or spend spend a ridiculous amount of time reflecting on what happened or didn't happen, when they did.
Christine McVie once noted that she and other members of Fleetwood Mac were at the cosmic brilliant best when out of their minds on stuff and fucking and hating each other to the max. Good Times!
I do not know how anyone with male children (especially the moms) could vote (D) after the Kavanaugh debacle.
In my working years I had two experiences that baffled me. I had a project where I, an engineer, was teamed with a female lawyer to work with the DOJ on a case. It involved a lot of after work meetings and hours huddled behind closed doors. People began asking if we were intimate. Nope, both married. No sexual mischief.
The second was having a woman engineer I mentored. Same assumptions except I was then single and she was married.
In neither case was there so much as a hug or kiss on the cheek.
In both cases the woman was brilliant, insightful and a tremendous benefit to the projects.
Yet in hindsight I was thankful no one complained.
Our youngest is about to enter a masters program where he'll work in the "Learning Center" helping under grads with writing. I've given him "the talk" about being alone with a woman. He thinks he's immune since he's had many women friends over the years. I fear for my son.
Men are trash. Other men are brash.
Women are woeful. Other women are hopeful.
Diversity is a poorly considered residual of reconciliation.
"He thinks he's immune since he's had many women friends over the years."
All it takes is one who imagines something that never even happened to make a mess of things for him.
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