"... that it will end only with a
'dirty deal.' But it cannot be a filthy deal, and the Trump plan is what history will call a filthy deal.... As my Times colleague David Sanger
observed in his analysis of the plan’s content: 'Many of the 28 points in the
proposed Russia-Ukraine peace plan offered by the White House read like they had been drafted in the Kremlin. They reflect almost all Mr. Putin’s maximalist demands.'... What would an acceptable dirty deal look like? It would freeze the forces in place, but never formally cede any seized Ukrainian territory. It would insist that European security forces, backed by U.S. logistics, be stationed along the cease-fire line as a symbolic tripwire against any Russian re-invasion. It would require Russia to pay a significant amount of money to cover all the carnage it has inflicted on Ukraine...."
Writes Thomas Friedman, in
"Trump’s Neville Chamberlain Prize" (NYT).
Republican Senator Mike Rounds is quoted at the Post: "[Rubio] made it very clear to us that we are the recipients of a proposal that was delivered to one of our representatives. It is not our recommendation. It is not our peace plan. It is a proposal that was received, and as an intermediary, we have made arrangements to share it — and we did not release it. It was leaked."
Posts
41 comments:
With Friedman weighing in we can reasonably expect that the exact opposite is happening. In fact it is Europe that should have taken the lead in pushing back on Russia but they didn’t. Neither did Bush or Obama. Finally when Trump was elected we started supplying arms and defense systems to Ukraine. But the Autopen admin squelched that support and slow walked every step after that, with a sharply worded, “No!” That was the extent of Biden’s plan, other than extracting more graft and gifts from his son’s former clients.
It’s not our war. Trump appears to be the only leader even trying to negotiate an end. All of Zelenskyy’s advisors have fled or cooperated with the corruption probe that is swamping his administration. We are done enabling Z’s schemes to prolong a war he can’t win.
Has Friedman gotten over his crush on the CCP and the autocratic way they “get things done” finally?
It was leaked.
Neocons gotta neocon. They’ll fight to the last Ukrainian!
Even calling it Trump’s plan is lie, of course. Where is Hillary with her reset button when you need her?
A plan that "never formally cede[s] any seized Ukrainian territory," doesn't sound like a lasting peace deal.
The Chamberlin accusations ignore the reality that Russia is a nuclear superpower. Risking WWIII, in moral disgust over Russia’s behavior, has one hell of a lot more apocalyptic potential that fighting back militarily against Germany in 1939.
The NYT wants the war to continue so that it can bash Trump.
Oh, the bitter clinging to Friedman & Dowd…
War just means there's negotiation friction. The parties differ on what they can win at what cost and there's no area of overlap where both come out ahead not fighting.
I’m ignoring this story but not the post- Friedman’s whining about this proposal as a Kremlin draft- wouldn’t a compromise solution with a superpower need to include large concessions from Ukraine? I suppose it’s a lever of Friedman’s point, if he happened to stumble upon one- if only the US had raided its Treasury larder…
Yesterday was the 62d anniversary of the JFK assassination. Did you notice that the media no longer memorializes it?
If WWI had ended in 1914, 1915, 1916, or1917 on any terms at all, favorable or unfavorable to the Allies, it would have been a better ending to that war. We got a world made safe for Lenin, Mussolini, and Hitler........Take a peace deal and see what happens. No wise man anywhere predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union. No wise man can predict how this peace will work out, but we can be certain that people will die if the war continues.......I don't think Biden negotiated such a great peace deal in Afghanistan. The women there suffered a harsher fate than Jeffrey Epstein's victims.
It’s Thomas Friedman. It’s the New York Times. Why would one expect honest journalism? Might seem strange that the Post, a tabloid (hence its sensationalistic headline regarding Ms. Maxwell) would have the more honest reporting, but this is the 21st century, not the 19th.
And now, thanks to Thomas Friedman, everybody knows about the Neville Chamberlain Prize and yet you never hear anything about the Neville Chamberlain Endowed Chair of Political, Economic and Social Innovation at Oxford.
So why is it that the Post is talking about “the US proposal” and “the framework of the deal”? Is there a real US proposal that has not been made public?
Shouting Thomas said...
The Chamberlin accusations ignore the reality that Russia is a nuclear superpower. …
Yes, Thomas, you’d think people living in New York or Washington would consider how quickly their lives would be over in any nuclear exchange with Russia. I suppose they’ve internalized some variant of “Putin would never,” but he certainly could and probably would.
"read like they had been drafted in the Kremlin. They reflect almost all Mr. Putin’s maximalist demands."
Because they were drafted in the Kremlin and reflect the maximalist demands of the Russian government?
We are condescended to by our inferiors.
The Left is never satisfied.
looks like, if we just wait a while longer;
we can talk to a different Ukrainian Government
Dear Tom, next time call a taxi. Taxi drivers have the best take on these matters.
Trump is Chamberlain AND Hitler now. Golly, I need to learn to keep up…
Leaks. Washington DC is nothing if not a rusty, rotted hull with constant leaks.
And our media is there waiting for their handouts.
The problem is that the war in Ukraine is lost. Ukraine has lost. Europe has lost. Russia can take the entire country right now if it wants to.
Moreover it is not clear that the United States has the industrial capacity to win this war if it wanted to. Not in our current state. We don't build anything here anymore.
The Neocon Desantis wing free trade republicans are just as responsible for this as the democrats.
All of you shitheads that called me a Putin puppet on this board can get fucked. I told you this would happen.
Head fake.
If Flathead is being fed something, something else is really happening.
Head fake.
If Flathead is being fed something, something else is really happening.
gilbar said...
looks like, if we just wait a while longer;
we can talk to a different Ukrainian Government
I told these people what Zelensky was. I was called a Putin puppet.
This is just like COVID all over again. Or the primaries. You people need to stop watching Fox news.
Chamberlain gets a bad rap. He got the best deal he could get at the time, as Britain was not yet ready for another European war. Accusations that he was Hitler's puppet were just so much political propaganda horseshit. Cartoon history.
The Vault Dweller said...
A plan that "never formally cede[s] any seized Ukrainian territory," doesn't sound like a lasting peace deal.
It would have been 4 years ago. All they had to do was sign the Mingsk accords.
All Ukraine had to do was say "We wont join NATO" and stop shooting Yanukovich voters.
The Neocons chose war. Now millions of Ukrainians are dead, Ukraine is going to lose the Russian speaking part of their country where they were murdering Russian ethnics, and Ukraine will stop throwing Eastern Orthodox priests in jail.
Kevin said...
It was leaked.
Neocons gotta neocon. They’ll fight to the last Ukrainian!
This was out days ago. I mentioned it then.
The timing suggests to me that Trump leaked it on purpose to get everyone comfortable with it.
They reflect almost all Mr. Putin’s maximalist demands.'
We were told that Mr. Putin wants to take all of Ukraine and then march on to Poland, Germany, and maybe France. Wouldn't that be Mr. Putin's "maximalist demands"?
Dirty Deals, Done at a Rather High Cost!….AC/DJT. CC, JSM
Out the gate -The liar liar left called it "Trump's plan".
Another shining example of how the cult-left work like a disseminated disease spreader.
That follows up on their big hit Jailbreak ‘24. CC, JSM
Achilles: If Russia could take all of Ukraine "right now if it wants to", why haven't they done so? They certainly tried back in 2022 and failed. Instead of overtaking all of Ukraine, Russia has become bogged down in a meat grinder stalemate. Early on in the war, Peter Zeihan predicted this current outcome and estimated that Putin could keep this up for 10 years.
I think what is informative about today's topic is that Thomas Friedman has articulated the ridiculous and completely unworkable position of the neocon globalist who want to keep this meat grinder going.
Why, you ask? The war in Ukraine is like a giant laboratory to see how combat will evolve in an age of AI and robotic technology. You can already see it's influence on American defense contracting.
we've spent the last few years, listening to their hit
If You Want BLOOD.. You GOT IT
GWB is demanding we go all WWIII.
’The war in Ukraine is like a giant laboratory to see how combat will evolve in an age of AI and robotic technology. You can already see its influence on American defense contracting.’
There has been a noticeable shift in emphasis the last few years, Howard. Good points…
"The timing suggests to me that Trump leaked it on purpose to get everyone comfortable with it."
Sounds like something Trump might do. The reality is that the war won't stop until Putin stops it. Putin will dictate the terms that will put an end to it.
It would insist that European security forces, backed by U.S. logistics, be stationed along the cease-fire line as a symbolic tripwire against any Russian re-invasion.
Mr. Friedman, sir, what is a "symbolic" tripwire, and how does it differ from a "real" tripwire?
What would an acceptable dirty deal look like? It would ...
Mr. Friedman, sir, when you say "acceptable," you aren't clear about to whom it would be acceptable. Apparently, it would be acceptable to you, but would it be acceptable to Ukraine? Would it be acceptable to Russia? Do you have any basis for thinking it would be acceptable to Russia? How useful is a "deal" that is acceptable to only one side, and possibly neither side?
In the alternative, Mr. Friedman, sir, you seem to be saying that you oppose accepting any deal less acceptable than your hypothetical "dirty deal"? If so, please say so forthrightly and please tell us how many more Ukrainians and Russians will die in your plan and how long your plan will extend the war. Your position might be justifiable, maybe the additional dead are worth it, but I think you need to show your work here.
Howard said...
Achilles: If Russia could take all of Ukraine "right now if it wants to", why haven't they done so? They certainly tried back in 2022 and failed. Instead of overtaking all of Ukraine, Russia has become bogged down in a meat grinder stalemate. Early on in the war, Peter Zeihan predicted this current outcome and estimated that Putin could keep this up for 10 years.
You have tripped over the truth.
Russia doesn't want Ukraine. Putin sees no value in holding it, at least the Western portions of it. It would be an occupied space and it would be a drain on Russian resources to occupy it and hold it. The retard Neocons here spewing garbage about Putin wanting to rebuild the Soviet empire are liars or stupid.
Russia wants a buffer against NATO expansion and he wants access to the Black Sea as well as a land corridor with friendly regimes to the south.
Putin is a surprisingly intelligent person and he knows Russia's demographic place. Zeihan reads demographics too. Putin is getting to that age where he is thinking of legacy and kids.
Putin has decided that if Ukraine will not agree to remain neutral his only option is to make sure that Ukraine will never be a threat at least for a generation or two. That means setting up a meat grinder and destroying a generation of Ukrainian men. That plus securing Black sea access meets his objectives. He doesn't want to annex a population that hates Russia.
If you look at some of the real military analysts out there they will tell you that the casualty rates for Ukraine are 2-5 times that of Russia. This is based on artillery rounds fired and drone munitions expended as well as troop rotation patterns and reserves. Everyone knows how long Russia trains their new recruits and how long Ukraine trains their recruits/conscripts. Russia is still attracting volunteers. Much of war can be reduced to math at this point.
Putin can keep this up forever. Ukraine cannot. This is Russia getting everything it wants now or in 5 years after more Ukrainian men are killed.
There is no negotiation here. Trump fucked up in my opinion. He should have told Europe and Ukraine to go fuck themselves when he took office. The only thing Trump could have done to change the current situation was to deploy the US armed forces to Ukraine and start world war 3.
Shouting Thomas raises the nuclear point that Friedman ignores. After a month off, you think Friedman could consider all factors, but he is still in a snit that Trump is settling the Gaza War. Friedman has been wrong so often he should retire.
Post a Comment
Please use the comments forum to respond to the post. Don't fight with each other. Be substantive... or interesting... or funny. Comments should go up immediately... unless you're commenting on a post older than 2 days. Then you have to wait for us to moderate you through. It's also possible to get shunted into spam by the machine. We try to keep an eye on that and release the miscaught good stuff. We do delete some comments, but not for viewpoint... for bad faith.