AND: "This is gonna be great television — I'll tell you that."
February 28, 2025
Trump and Vance get remarkably intense with Zelensky.
ADDED: The scene is described by Peter Baker for the NYT: "Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance castigated Mr. Zelensky for not being grateful enough for U.S. support in its war with Russia and sought to strong-arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate. With voices raised and tempers flaring, Mr. Trump threatened to abandon Ukraine altogether if Mr. Zelensky did not go along. Talking over the Ukrainian leader, Mr. Vance told Mr. Zelensky that it was 'disrespectful' for him to come to the Oval Office and make his case in front of the American news media and demanded that he thank Mr. Trump for his leadership. Mr. Trump jumped in and told the Ukrainian leader, 'You’re not really in a good position right now” and that “you’re gambling with World War III.' 'You’re either going make a deal or we’re out,” Mr. Trump added. “And if we’re out, you’ll fight it out and I don’t think it’s going to be pretty.' The exchange in front of television cameras was one of the most dramatic moments ever to play out in public in the Oval Office...."
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159 comments:
Zelensky is a fool. Good for our President and his Vice President. Go home Zelensky.
Deal or no deal?
Absolutely disgusting. Trump and Vance have smeared America’s good name to the world, except for Russia, Hungary and North Korea.
When Zelensky campaigned for the Democrats, he should have realized there might be down side. Very short sighted person.
Zelensky picked that fight with Vance. Vance was having none of it. Zelensky then picked at Trump who was certainly having none of it.
I liked the first 3 minutes. I don't quite agree with JD Vance disagreement about that point with Zelensky. I think Zelensky was making a fair point about diplomacy not working in relation to Crimea.
Overall, I do appreciate the very transparent negotiations. That was phenomenal. Regardless, I fully expect the opposition domestic and abroad to make a lot of hay from this.
It seemed like a very honest exchange from both sides. I think that the unconditional surrender of the Nazis and the Japanese and World war II have created expectations that total victory is the only outcome that is successful with an aggressor. Trump is acting like the squishy Lefty that he is talking about peace and in The killing rolling back the pressure on starting World war III.
100% behind Trump and Vance. Let Europe fund the war. And disclose the money that went to the Bidens.
Zelensky must like watching his people die. What a dolt.
Trump is pacing Putin. Once Trump agrees with Putin on enough stuff Putin cares about, Putin imports that good feeling on stuff he doesn't actually feel so good about.
Kinda vague, and gentle, right?
What did Zelensky think would happen? This is classic Trump, and it follows his on-stage dispute with Pelosi and Schumer circa 2017.
for once I agree with Inga
Inga, if trump cured cancer you would call it disgusting because of all the oncologists he just put out of work. There is nothing Trump could do to make you say anything good. You will always denigrate him and all the people not fully on team D. You really are that transparent. The blog had a refreshing two and a half months after the election, and I dared to hope that you had given up your worthless crusade. Unfortunately, that was not the case.
JD Vance is the bomb! He's learning how to be President from the master.
Obama/Biden/Clinton's ethnic Springs with "benefits" come home to bray. Kiev's coup representative cannot help us and we should not help Kiev. Saving Ukrainian lives should be the first objective.
Zelensky got absolutely cooked. Trump just posted a follow-up.
“We had a very meaningful meeting in the White House today. Much was learned that could never be understood without conversation under such fire and pressure,” Trump posted on Truth Social after the meeting.
“It’s amazing what comes out through emotion, and I have determined that President Zelenskyy is not ready for Peace if America is involved, because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations,” Trump continued. “I don’t want advantage, I want PEACE. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for Peace.”
Full transparency on efforts to clean up after BIG Zer0 0bama and Dementia Joe Biden.
Trump obviously trusts Vance very much, otherwise he would not have allowed him to be part of that negotiation.
I wonder how many times Barack let Biden into such meetings. He most likely kept him out, worrying SloJo---who he said had a talent for fucking things up--- would have a Fredo moment.
“for once I agree with Inga”
EMTs are on their way, Martha!
Zelenskyy bum rushed outta teh White House.
This is the most refreshing thing I have witnessed coming out of the White House in many a year. Candid, straight talk. Zelenskyy apparently thought he could come to Trump's house dressed like the faux warrior (instead of playing the piano with his dick) and talk to the man as if he was an equal, rather than the supplicant that he is. Like when the street beggar stops asking for a handout and demands that you give him some dough. Who knew that Zelenskyy was really just a Ukrainian squeegee guy?
Zelensky should have avoided getting into a public shouting match with Trump in the oval office. It suits Trump just fine and Trump has the advantage of being on his turf, talking in his native language and providing weapons Ukraine needs.
Zelensky is losing what he had before, the ability to stay sharp and calm under enormous pressure. No matter how wrong or cruel he thought Trump and Vance were, such as saying he doesn't care about the fate of Ukrainians, Zelsensky still needed to keep his calm and choose his words carefully.
Classic hardball business deal negotiations. Often effective.
I just wonder why the participants decided that it was a good idea for Zelinsky to come to the Oval Office at all. It's clear that Trump & Zelinsky were still very far apart in their positions and those fissures became public "with a quickness". Somehow the preliminary diplomatic groundwork just didn't get done right or at least did get done in good faith. Where that blame lies, historians will have to decide.
My first thought was that Zelinsky just got on the wrong side of Pres. Trump, which isn't difficult to do. But, in Trump's defense, he and PM Starmer seemed to get along famously just yesterday, and they are from quite opposite ends of the political spectrum.
I still prefer my world leaders to yell at each other in private (e.g. Churchill and Roosevelt got into it more than once), but it was an interesting view into history being made.
You can disagree with Trump. You can't claim that he's bullshitting on this. This is what "Transparency" looks like.
Derve Swanson said... They're not "his" people.
Welp, they are people whether they are his or not and they are still dying. The important word being PEOPLE.
I've never been more proud of our President and Vice President. It's good for the world to see how hard this is. Zelensky will slide back in crawling on his belly like a reptile. This is how you are supposed to negotiate a deal to buy a car. You are paying too much if you haven't gotten up and walked out of the dealership.
- Krumhorn
"He's acting very ungrateful..."
Zelensky has always acted very ungrateful...
What an embarrassment for the United States. A low point for American history.
You can disagree with Trump. You can't claim that he's bullshitting on this. This is what "Transparency" looks like.
Disagree. I don't think the tenor of the conversation would have been the same if in it were in private. Trump likes political theatre and often a good public row suits his purposes. My guess is that it would have been more polite and toned down if away from the eyes of the public.
There's a reason chutzpah is a yiddish word. Zelensky knows he can be rude and aggressive and yes "Ungrateful" and it wont matter. We'll get some mewling like: "How rude" "How Disrepectful" and the whole thing will blow over in a day.
The USA Establishment wants Zelenskyyyy to stay in power, and so do the EU leaders, and they want Ukraine to keep fighting and dying to wear down Russia. Trump is the outlier in wanting peace.
This has one upside: Russia and USA can now negotiate directly and not bother with Ukraine.
you’re gambling with World War III
That’s been true for a while now. I think one of the things Zelenskyy needs to understand is that his veto power (as in next to zero) over any negotiations between Trump and Putin, and I suspect that Trump and Vance are being very unsubtle in making him aware of that. If he thinks he can go over Trump’s head to the people of the United States, he would get a rude shock.
Zelenskyy needs to keep in mind that (1) his cooperation with Pelosi and the Democrats in Trump’s first impeachment has not been forgiven and certainly not forgotten, and (2) his joining Josh Shapiro in an anti-Trump campaign stunt in Pennsylvania has not been overlooked. So it’s not as though he has a whole lot of good will to draw upon. If the US can find evidence of Zelenskyy and his cronies skimming from American aid — as I’m sure the Intel community could if they bothered to look — and if there’s credible evidence of kickbacks to the Biden family — as I’m even more certain that there is — then American support for the war will essentially go to zero overnight.
Trump greeted Zelenskyy at the White House entrance by noting that he had eschewed his trademark grimy olive green sweater for a dark suit and black sweater, saying “He’s all dressed up.” This was an obvious warning from the head of a superpower to a client head of state to watch himself during the meeting, but Zelenskyy seems to have missed it.
"What an embarrassment for the United States. A low point for American history."
What entitlement and arrogance from Zelensky. The United States is under no obligation to hand him check after check, and hollow out our ground military stockpiles, half of which get drained to organized crime in Ukraine, indefinitely. Zelensky is not the president of this country. He doesn't get to dictate anything to the president of this country. He tried his usual schtick, which worked for three years on Europe and the Biden administration, and finally got the facts of life explained to him.
Zelensky is a very brave man. He's also stubborn as hell. Not once did he say what the world (or maybe just Trump, who, as he pointed out, has the money and weapons) needs to hear: "I am prepared to try to negotiate in good faith to reach a solution."
What I heard was: Putin started this war. The United States made an agreement with me, that they broke. I'm really pissed and I have a right to be.
Trump's response--That's in the past. You might be right but your people are dying and you are going to lose more. And the US isn't going to pay for this to continue. Do you want to have peace or not?
I’m gonna take another angle and ask: What if it was staged for consumption by Putin.
What an embarrassment for the United States. A low point for American history.
Better to join hands and sing Kumbaya so the slaughter can continue. Better bloodshed than embarrassment, eh?
Amexpat--It's pretty obvious that they have had that conversation "in private" many times. Trump is making public why there is no progress towards peace, and why he is going to make a deal with Putin. Did Zelensky seem surprised by anything that was said? Not that I could see.
Magills
@magills_
·
13m
Trump should have been more gracious to the guy who keeps asking for our money and also campaigned against him
If Zelensky doesn’t watch it, Trump‘s going to make a deal with Putin about how they’re gonna divide up Ukraine. Just kidding.
Zelensky still seems to be working under the Biden mindset of scamming the American people and this is a good shake up to get him to realize he really does have to negotiate.
I’m gonna take another angle and ask: What if it was staged for consumption by Putin.
You mean to sandbag Putin and lure him into some sort of trap? Very unlikely, but if so, Nobel Peace Prize to Trump and an Oscar to Zelensky.
It's like I woke up in a different America on January 21st. I know what happening in my government, and I know who is saying and doing what. I even know who the President is.
Embarrassing? Hardly. I haven't been this proud of America since I was a kid. Only the U.S. is fighting for peace, insisting on it, and demanding it. The rest of the world should be embarrassed, and I think they are.
boatbuilder said...
Amexpat--It's pretty obvious that they have had that conversation "in private" many times.
I agree. As I noted before, I thought Zelensky's point about diplomacy was fair. The response to that suggests there was a discussion on this subject previously, and Trump and Vance were annoyed by it. Probably, as you note boatbuilder, because it was in the past and counterproductive.
RCOCEAN II said...
There's a reason chutzpah is a yiddish word. Zelensky knows he can be rude and aggressive and yes "Ungrateful" and it wont matter. We'll get some mewling like: "How rude" "How Disrepectful" and the whole thing will blow over in a day.
One of the best bosses I ever had told me that she preferred working with men more that with women for the above reason. I suspect the deal will concluded pretty soon.
To anyone that dislikes how Trump is handling this and the war in Ukraine, you can help the situation by putting your ass on a plane to Kiev right now and getting really good at sleeping under the stars and eating tushonka. Knowing how handle an AK would also be helpful.
Please let us know when you depart so we can see you off with a tickertape parade.
@Quayle, good point. Though I don’t think Zelenskyy was necessarily in on it.
"Absolutely disgusting. Trump and Vance have smeared America’s good name to the world,..."
By all means, let's keep America's good name, and lose a bunch more Ukrainians, Russians and North Koreans, simply because we prefer decorum with our death and dying?
That little cokehead weasel really did think he could relitigate the terms of the behind doors deal in front of the global media!
Gutsy move Maverick.
Boys and girls – you just saw history being made.
Russia has twice as many troops, 5X as many tanks, 10X as many military aircraft, and a leader who doesn't care how many lives are lost. That last one is the only parity with Ukraine. Ukraine can never win other than via peace, which they can win bigly if they have an election, or Trump keeps this up.
@Boatbuilder
Zelensky came to sign what was supposed to be a done deal regarding US rights to Ukrainian minerals. So something went awry. Zelensky seemed to be caught off guard to me. He wouldn't have travelled to the White House for the sake of a public shouting match with Trump. Perhaps Trump invited him for that purpose?
Biden's war.... and the CIA's Ukraine.
Biden and his horrid family are rich - and millions are dead.
Europe has been using the United States like an ATM since WWII. That need to start carrying their OWN freight and stop picking our pockets.
About time.
12:48 pm "Ukrainian squeegee guy" = priceless
A sad day. Vance and Trump speaking for Russia.
As always, I’m truly baffled what the Trump administration think they are getting out of this situation. On one side, spend a fraction of what they would have spend otherwise to cripple and demolish army and defences of their second largest “enemy” by supporting Ukraine. On the other, alienate your allies and tarnish your international reputation for the slim chance to move Russia away from China, I guess?
I’m honestly trying to move away from my personal biases to see what logically is the new US administration trying to accomplish with this shift in foreign policy. I can’t make any sense of their decision whatsoever.
Maybe the problem is I’m looking for logical coherence?
"I'm truly baffled"
That sums it up.
If this had been a phone conversation the dems would be drawing up articles of impeachment against Trump by now.
Where was Musk? Inga and her male cohorts say he is the "real" President.
Zelensky obviously thought he was negotiating with Biden.
Zelensky is going to come crawling back. He blew it big time.
Watched some video. J. D. was lethal. Perfect wingman for DJT.
As I wrote the other day, if we are not going to fight the Russians directly in this war, then we are doing the Ukrainian people a grave disservice by literally encouraging them to fight this losing battle. The Ukrainians can neither win this war or keep from losing it with western weapons alone because they are materially mismatched badly.
If you support Ukraine in this war, you need to state it boldly that you support NATO taking of the Russians in an armed conflict. Any other position is immoral in being completely unserious. So, those in this thread who think Zelensky is right, what say you- do you support sending American troops into Ukraine to fight the Russians? I asked this question the other day and got zero answers from those supporting Zelensky.
"This is gonna be great television — I'll tell you that."
I'll stick with that, let's see what happens.
From what I saw Trump/Vance responded to a question, explaining the difficulty of the US role required in negotiating a diplomatic solution to a war between combatants who hate each other, contrasted with Biden who talked tough into years of war with an open checkbook and no end in sight.
It was Zelinsky who then tried to relitigate the entire history of the war in front of the press.
Saw a report of 875k dead in Russia and 2.5m injured. No word on the Ukrainian losses. Russia can throw bodies into this war for as long as it wants.
Quayle is onto something.
Vance! First he insists on inserting himself in the conversation. Then, he tries to make it about some petty domestics politics thing. Finally, he gives Trump that little pat on the arm, which is the most condescending thing a Vice President has ever done to a President. Of course, Vance, being the Vice President, and Musk, being the principal officer of the executive department, can use the 25th Amendment to fire Trump whenever they want. So maybe Trump does work for Vance, and not the other way around.
I really wouldn't expect any Ukrainian to feel particularly grateful to the United States right now. The US "walked Ukraine down the primrose path" as John Mearsheimer put it.
They've lost 15% of their territory, 20% of their population and Trump wants them to sign away 50% of their mineral rights or be left to Putin's tender mercies.
Americans clearly differentiate between the Biden and Trump administrations, but I'm not sure it's so clear to Ukrainans. To Ukraine everything that was said and done was said and done by the United States and if Trump thinks his predecessor was a bad guy and/or a stupid guy who maneuvered Ukraine needlessly into a war to advance American goals or to make money, then maybe Trump should step up and the US should remedy that to what ever degree they can. Perhaps Zelensky sees Ukraine as a victim of great power politics and a historical crime.
Real diplomatic and foreign policy incompetence by Trump and Vance on full display. Not just today but over the last few weeks. Munich was a disaster. The UN vote was a disaster. Unilateral concessions to Russia was just plain stupid. And now an argument on TV with Zelenskyy and a failed deal.
Trump is doing everything to accomplish Putin’s anti-American, anti-Western agenda in full force, dividing the West, rupturing support for Ukraine, and weakening the US and western alliances.
@Yancey Ward
I support assisting Ukraine with weapons if they need to protect their country. I don't support sending US troops there and Ukraine has never asked for that.
Did you think that it was immoral to send arms to Afganis who were fighting against the Soviet invasion of their country without sending troops ourselves? What would have been the consequences if we didn't do that?
Silly Zelensky. fell for another great, humorous con from our hero.
I'd like to point out that, judging from my Facebook feed, Ukraine is a cause that American liberals have decided to embrace with an ardor equaled only in their support of transgenders. They see Trump as being Putin's pawn, in spite of their never really being any concrete evidence they could produce during Trump's administration for the charge.
Now, I really don't like Russia or Russians in any of their Tsarist, Soviet, or post-Soviet forms (the reasons are complicated). But, Russia is a nation, after all, a nation with a border with China, various Muslim 'Stans, and a gaggle of Eastern/Central European countries that hate its guts. It lost 22 million in WWII. Russia has legitimate national security concerns. Now, those concerns don't involve re-building the Soviet Union by invading its neighbors, but they aren't trivial either.
To pretend that Russia doesn't have legitimate national concerns and that in rescuing Ukraine the West can humiliate Russia as it pleases seems to me to be an invitation to WWIII. I hope & pray that middle path can be found by all the participants.
Whose displeasure does Zelensky fear more than Trump's?
I don't think Trump really wants to deal with Zelensky and doesn't show him respect because he understands that Zelensky is an errand boy.
Yeah, the commenters posting here that they’ve never been prouder to be American/this is what a good president looks like, yikes. Watching this Trump/Vance-Zelensky interaction is the scissoriest of scissor statements. Listening to Trump and Vance was embarrassing to me.
To paraphrase Scott Galloway, for $60B/yr of funding to Ukraine, the US ties up one of its biggest enemies (Russia, for those of you uncertain of that) in conflict, and a lot of the money comes back to US red state defense contractors. Hardly a raw deal. Ignorance of this fact by the US right is irritating.
If the US was invaded by a foreign enemy, we’d fight to the end, WW3 be damned. And US conservatives know this. Ukraine wants justice more than peace. And the US abandoning Ukraine with the off-chance it leads to WW3, that’s just irresponsible and bad leadership by the US. Ukraine is an ally. Russia is not
Trump wants assurance that Kiev will not try to wedge America as a buffer zone into the Slavic Spring.
Ukraine man misbehaves; gets kicked out of meeting.
Finally, a loser, user and abuser Churchill of the East, small time grifter will go straight to the annals of history as a manifestation of provincialism and stupidity. Give him an Oscar. Slava Trump!
"To paraphrase Scott Galloway, for $60B/yr of funding to Ukraine, the US ties up one of its biggest enemies (Russia, for those of you uncertain of that) in conflict, and a lot of the money comes back to US red state defense contractors. Hardly a raw deal. Ignorance of this fact by the US right is irritating."
And now Russia is unbreakably attached at the hip to China as an enemy of the United States in a future possible Sino-American War. Brilliant policy.
"If the US was invaded by a foreign enemy, we’d fight to the end, WW3 be damned. And US conservatives know this. Ukraine wants justice more than peace. And the US abandoning Ukraine with the off-chance it leads to WW3, that’s just irresponsible and bad leadership by the US. Ukraine is an ally. Russia is not"
'We should risk WW3 for Ukraine because we wouldn't care if we were invaded.' Yeah, we aren't invaded. Your point falls apart immediately. There is no chance forcing Ukraine to peace risks WW3. Russia's military is wrecked because we gave Ukraine weapons and money to fight it, but Russia's military can also start WW3 if we stop. You can't have it both ways.
"Listening to Trump and Vance was embarrassing to me."
Reading your opinion is embarrassing to me, and my embarrassment is as irrelevant as yours.
Bob B is certainly correct that the US "walked Ukraine down the primrose path." But the way out of a hole is not to continue digging.
@actual_item,
To paraphrase Scott Galloway, for $60B/yr of funding to Ukraine, the US ties up one of its biggest enemies
So, we strategically brilliant Americans will fight for Ukraine to the last Ukranian? How courageous of us!
But, here's what else the Russia-Ukraine war has done that isn't so wonderful. It has jacked up the world price of oil, food grains, and fertilizers, burdens which fall hardest on the world's poorest countries, not the USA & E.U.
It has cemented Russia, China, Iran and North Korea into a solidly anti-Western alliance, an alliance that has the juice to do the West solid damage in any arena that they wish to challenge us in.
It has exposed to the world the fecklessness of the E.U. NATO powers, who, even with a war on their doorstep, seem to be unable to respond in any militarily responsible fashion over a period of years.
I could go on, but the above are enough. This Ukraine/Russia war is a disaster for everyone, and needs to end.
"Hardly a raw deal."
Spoken like the congressman of a district with a large defense contractor.
Clearly those with tender ears are getting the vapors today.
Just all the more reason why the US should never have gotten involved in Ukraine in the first place. I'm referring to the 2014 regime change. It was all downhill from there. Now, there's no good way out.
Z is a gimme-girl dressed up like he's at a night club. And an ingrate who doesn't know how to say "Thank you."
you go, Zelinski. Trump and Vance were like badly behaved children, wondering why you were not being more grateful for the help we have been giving you. Childish
This Ukraine/Russia war is a disaster for everyone, and needs to end.
What about the fact that Russia was not able to continue to prop up Assad in Syria, which in return has greatly weakened Iran? No benefit to that?
Conversely, if the US didn't help Ukraine and it fell with little cost to the Russia' would the US' worldwide security position be stronger or weaker? I say weaker because Russian influence in Mid East would have been much stronger thus making Iran stronger and the chances of China taking Taiwan by force would have increased.
"Russia can throw bodies into this war for as long as it wants."
Not really. They have lost enough armor and artillery that it is becoming a slaughter of untrained soldiers. They are already in demographic decline and will have other challenges besides Ukraine. They are cooked no matter what transpires. The whole adventure was based on a two weeks to success premise, we are now three years on. Bodies hasn't always worked for Russia.
Wow! Can you imagine that exchange between Zelensky, Biden and Harris? NFW!
@TickTock1948
For clarity, there's another frequent commenter here who's handle is Bob B.
But the way out of a hole is not to continue digging.
Couldn't agree more. Stop the killing. That's number one.
victoria said...
you go, Zelinski. Trump and Vance were like badly behaved children, wondering why you were not being more grateful for the help we have been giving you. Childish
2/28/25, 2:19 PM
Go there and help him out vicki!! Good little fangirls will go fight for their cause instead of hating on America.
The left is still pissed at Russia for letting the Soviet Union collapse. They care nothing about Ukraine or Ukrainians. Communism is their religion, their god and the Soviet Union was their Vatican.
Trump and Vance have smeared America’s good name to the world, except for Russia, Hungary and North Korea.
Hard to believe there are people out there this stupid, but there ya go.
This might be a good time to remind people that WWII started because the British, the French, and the Americans all encouraged the Poles to refuse to negotiate with Hitler, by promising military support that they were in no position to provide. How did that work out for Poland?
Trump should have arranged to have a piano in the room.
The blog had a refreshing two and a half months after the election, and I dared to hope that you had given up your worthless crusade. Unfortunately, that was not the case.
Seconded.
This might be a good time to remind people that WWII started because the British, the French, and the Americans all encouraged the Poles to refuse to negotiate with Hitler, by promising military support that they were in no position to provide. How did that work out for Poland?
The Poles were screwed either way. Negotiating with Hitler would not have helped, as Stalin learned the hard way.
"The left is still pissed at Russia for letting the Soviet Union collapse."
It is noteworthy, that the American Left was fine with Russia when it was the keystone of the Soviet Union, dedicated to the destruction of America and the West. Now that it's just a white, Christian nation, they hate it and would like to see your children killed fighting a pointless war against it.
victoria: "you go, Zelinski. Trump and Vance were like badly behaved children, wondering why you were not being more grateful for the help we have been giving you. Childish"
LOL
So lets make sure we are all clear here on what the idiot victoria wrote: the dude that is NOT grateful to the nation that has provided the vast majority of support to his nation is the non-childish one!
Too funny. Thanks victoria!
"... for $60B/yr of funding to Ukraine, the US ties up one of its biggest enemies (Russia, for those of you uncertain of that) in conflict, and a lot of the money comes back to US red state defense contractors. Hardly a raw deal."
It's a raw deal for everybody who is not a defense contractor.
"Negotiating with Hitler would not have helped, as Stalin learned the hard way."
What Hitler wanted from Poland was Danzig. What Stalin wanted was war between the capitalist nations.
JD Vance escalated things via lying or ignorance (not sure which one) when he took unnecessary pot shots at the former admin, saying current admin is being novel by attempting diplomacy. Zelenksy calmly responds by saying Ukraine attempted to address the last Russian invasion with diplomacy. Russia didn’t live up to terms and invaded again. Then Trump and Vance go on to spout their nonsense without addressing Zelenky’s point.
But that’s Trump superpower, not listening, not responding, making things up. It’s a gift, it’s quite breathtaking to watch. It’ll be interesting to see if Trump can pass this superpower on to his proteges when he eventually (God willing) leaves office
So, sure, let’s do diplomacy. But let’s do it with a funded Ukraine in a position of strength, not name-calling/undermining Zelensky (again, our ally) and spouting off a bunch of Russian talking points. Stop the “stop the killing” naive, western B.S. Ukraine doesn’t want to stop the killing temporarily for Russia to invade again in under a decade. If the west and Russia honestly wanted to “stop the killing,” they’d let Ukraine join NATO, have Zelensky step down, and we can all move on with our lives.
And @ Quayle, I don’t really give a crap about red state defense contractors. I’m just trying to be honest about the situation. Trump provides made up numbers, saying US is getting screwed. I’d just prefer our president to quote accurate numbers (I mean, he has people that can give him accurate numbers, right? why does it always feel like he’s speculating about his own numbers?) and an accurate assessment of the situation, $60B/yr to Ukraine ain’t that raw a deal.
"I don't want a ride, I want ammo"
It's been almost 3 years since Z won America's heart, and subsequently its wallet, with that defiant statement.
We gave him what he asked for. It hasn't worked, and there is no reasonable scenario in which it will work to rid eastern Ukraine of the Russians.
This will not change the outcome for Ukraine vis a vis the Russians. The Russians will keep the territory they have conquered.
It will change the outcome for the USA. I don't pretend to know what Z's game is here. He may think that he can go it alone (with EU assistance) and that was his reason for gambling on a Harris win in November. Now his failure to play the proper role in meeting with the American president will cost his country- more destruction, more casualties, and more in future mineral wealth that the US will demand (and get).
Trump may even demand that Z come clean (with receipts) on how his predecessor and his family enriched themselves by taking his cut of the aid American taxpayers and their children have provided.
What Hitler wanted from Poland was Danzig.
Do you really beleive that Hilter only wanted Danzig from the Poles despite all his talk about Lebensraum?
Note to Igna:
You lefty Democrats used to love Mother Russia. What happened?
actual items: "JD Vance escalated things via lying or ignorance (not sure which one) when he took unnecessary pot shots at the former admin, saying current admin is being novel by attempting diplomacy..."
LOL
Nice try tiger.
In another context this would be called an intervention.
80+% of Americans don't trust Putin. 80+% of commentators on this blog think Putin is a good guy. You're outnumbered.
Not a single commenter raises that it was Trumps very first call with Zelensky that led to Trumps first term impeachment?
No one? Really?
I'm dissapointed in the commentariat here.
You know, one can politely explain to everyone that one of sides in this negotiation is unyielding, only centered on their position, and difficult to deal with even on a personal level...or...you can demo it for everyone to see and fully understand. THIS was a demo.
Even more importantly, this was a demo that the current President has one and only one allegiance in these discussions, and that is the interests and security of the United States. That is not embarrassing. It's not a shameful day for this country or this President. On the contrary, it's refreshing and fantastic for everyone to be able to see this reaffirmed. GREAT demo!
"Do you really beleive that Hilter only wanted Danzig from the Poles despite all his talk about Lebensraum?"
It is fairly evident that Hitler's immediate objective was to reunite the many German-speakers who had been exiled by the Versailles Treaty. Thus, Austria, the Sudetenland, and Danzig. It does appear, that he had concluded that Germany, as a land power, was not going to be successful competing in the colonialist game with Britain, France and the Netherlands, and had determined to expand to the East instead. But that did not have to be Poland's problem. Nor Britain, France, or America's problem, either. It should have been Stalin's problem.
@ Drago
If peace is so important, you just want to “stop the killing,” why the need for the potshots at the former admin? Why demand thanks for your efforts? (Vance is such a Millennial, always needs ‘recognition’ for doing his job, can’t just do his work like a Gen Xer or Boomer LOL). If you want to be a statesman, talk like one, not a whiny kid. God help me when we get Gen Z leaders.
(I kid the Millenials, they get a bad rap, they’re some of my best employees. Jury’s out on Gen Z.)
I don't think I've seen it mentioned here, but isn't the real embarrassment to humanity that peace talks didn't start 3 years ago? I've been wondering when someone would pick up the ball, but no, not a single world leader ever brought the subject up. That channel hasn't been in the lineup. Not one - oh, except for Trump. The United Nations has been 'crickets', too. So it would appear that the conflict has strong backing, but funnily enough, nobody coming right out and saying, 'Yep, let's slaughter, here's more money'. We've got those highly-principled campaigners with selective memory about what started all of this, demanding stiff upper lips and supple wallets from everybody. A few politicians in DC have brought up the massive cash drain with no apparent accounting, pointing out the Ukrainian newly-rich Skimming Class of globetrotters. But apparently, demanding financial oversight is an even worse offense than calling for peace.
So, anybody whinging that Trump is a disgrace, eh: Let's hear your side ! How long have you personally been calling for peace talks to commence? Zelensky should have known he was on thin ice since being excluded from Trump's conversation with Putin. Trump appears to be the only adult on the landscape that is serious about stopping the killing, no? A show of hands please: Who thinks it'll be easy?
jim5301: "80+% of Americans don't trust Putin. 80+% of commentators on this blog think Putin is a good guy. You're outnumbered."
Things you write when you actually have no arguments.
Maybe Ukraine shouldn’t have elected a clown as its president. The best I can say for him is that he is a fool. You don’t come to a signing ceremony unless everything has been agreed to in advance. Zelenskyy thought that he could change the deal in real time by shaming the US into providing him with an unlimited supply of weapons. That is not going to work with Trump.
One more thing. It's fine to want "full transparency," but as someone who has actually conducted intense negotiations between antagonistic and outspoken parties, I recommend that the negotiations themselves be held in private, with the transparent part in front of the press and cameras/mics done AFTER the negotiations have been successfully negotiated. And that's especially true if the transparency part of the event has enemies of your side (i.e., the WH press corpse) eager to throw hand grenade questions to get their desired reactions.
In another context this would be called an intervention.
Hilarious.
80% of Americans say no more funding useless wars. Doesn't matter what our attitudes towards Putin may be. Those attitudes vary all over the map, and they're mostly not favorable.
In any event, negotiate as best as youcan to put the best face possible face on things, but the bankrolling of the war is over. So sorry.
"I don't pretend to know what Z's game is here."
Z's game is, he recently bought a mansion in Egypt, his wife is jet-setting all over the place, he's coked out of his gourd, and he has hundreds of millions stowed in Swiss and Cayman accounts. He is having the time of his life, and he knows it can't last forever. So, why not show up at the White House in hipster drag, pull out his little folder of atrocity porn and try to get it on TV? I'm surprised he didn't do a little dance.
actual items: "If peace is so important, you just want to “stop the killing,” why the need for the potshots at the former admin? Why demand thanks for your efforts? (Vance is such a Millennial, always needs ‘recognition’ for doing his job, can’t just do his work like a Gen Xer or Boomer LOL). If you want to be a statesman, talk like one, not a whiny kid. God help me when we get Gen Z leaders."
What universe are you in?
Why take potshots at the former admin? Because your guest, your sucker of the US teet, has come after the details of a peace agreement have been reached to finalize the deal and then gets the bright idea he can "Reset" the entire discussion from an oval office sitdown based on the idiocy demonstrated by the previous admin.
Zelensky is a coked up buffoon who made the classic sports mistake: he believed the press clippings generated by a compliant press serving usual establishment suspects who want the grift and money laundering to continue forever.
Morons like you keep arguing that Russia is both a threat that will show up on our shores at any minute!!!!!.....which the midget tried arguing today.....
.....and Russia is so weak they are reduced to using pitch forks and garden tools in their assaults and wheelbarrows to transport their wounded....all with a russki GDP less than 3/4's that of Italy!
And any mention of $60B per year should come with an immediate disclaimer that Zelensky himself claims $100Billion out of $170Billion never made it to Ukraine and that he, Zelensky, has no idea where it went.
No idea where $100B went.
So here's the deal I'm happy to offer up: A full audit of every penny of the $170B already provided (nay, the full $350B for all cash and inkind support provided) and once we are comfortable we know what happened to that money I'll consider supporting continued funding for Zelensky's little grift operation.
Not surprisingly, I feel quite confident that pre-condition to additional funding will never, ever, be met.
Some background.
The whole thing is deeply depressing. My maternal grandmother was Ukrainian. I think Putin is a murderous leader and a terrifying neighbour. Ask Georgia, or Moldova. I wish Russia would be driven out of Ukraine. But what was Zelensky thinking? Why wasn't he prepared? This should just have been a show up, thank you for all your help, sign, smile and shake hands moment (see UK PM Starmer yesterday). That's what was expected. That's why there were 2 podiums ready. Zelensky was not prepared. If he didn't like the deal, he shouldn't have gone.
@jim5301said: "80+% of Americans don't trust Putin. 80+% of commentators on this blog think Putin is a good guy. You're outnumbered."
What an interesting insight. I don't think I've ever once seen anybody admiring Putin on this blog. But there you go. My own assessment is that most Americans have a fairly strong dislike of Putin and his ways, because theyre anti-freedom and gangsterish - but they are also capable of distinguishing a setup when they smell one. Asking for Putin to be hated, based on 'Russian election interference' for instance. Maybe you should re-evaluate.
Yes - I was wondering why all those Senators were literally >thanking< Zelensky. For what, exactly?
@ planetgeo re: 3PM
That's the way it's traditionally done and Trump certainly knows that. So what can be inferred from Trump's decision to tag team Zelensky and hammer him like that in front of the press?
Maybe Trumps phone calls with Zelensky haven't been productive. Maybe he didn't anticipate successful negotiations behind the scenes and didn't want to come out of private meetings to announce failure. Maybe he decided to let the world see what he's dealing with in Zelensky. Maybe he just wants to save time and not let Zelensky drag things out. After all, people are dying every day. Trump wants a cease fire, then to talk.
I don't know. Just speculation.
Zelinski campaigned for Kamala - did he not?
the way Zelinski interrupted Trump - was no accident. He smells like a CIA(D) plant.
Zelinski had the audacity to complain about paying us back... that it would burden generations of Ukrainians? What. What!?
What!?
uh -that's US Tax payer money - buddy. WE are the ones who have generational debt- thanks to Crook Joe and the corrupt CIA.
Putin is a bad man - but Zelinski must go and this war - must end.
Americans are not going to pay for another endless war.
You leftists can pound sand.
@Jupiter. That photo of Zelensky with Klobuchar explains it all. First Zelensky campaigns for the Democrats and then he has a meeting with the opposition and poses for a photo before meeting with Trump? What a dumb move. He deserved the treatment he got at the White House.
Zelinski acted like a rude entitled child.
Same as the corrupt sewer Soviet-Democratics.
I still have some sympathy for the Ukrainian.
It helps to remember that Putin's original goal was not the retaking of Russian speaking areas in the East but rather the taking of the entire country.
This was foiled when their assault on Kiev was stopped by Russian military mismanagement, the reality of modern defensive weapons versus an armored assault, man-portable anti-air weapons (thus the Javelins and Stingers that Trump mentioned), and a courageous, determined resistance by the Ukrainian forces.
Without Zelenskyy's leadership it is quite possible that Ukraine would now be entirely under Russian control.
Amazingly to me, some seem to think that would be a good thing!
I agree that he hasn't handled his relationship with the US well in the years since, but I don't walk in his shoes, with the Red Army on my doorstep.
Seeing our President actually engaged in a heated discussion to try to save Ukrainian and Russian lives and avoid WWIII, was one of the most amazing scenes of my life. He's one tough SOB, thankfully.
jim5301: "80+% of Americans don't trust Putin. 80+% of commentators on this blog think Putin is a good guy. You're outnumbered."
The point isn't whether Putin is a "good guy," it is dealing with reality. Either Putin can be trusted, in which case we should earnestly try to reach a cease fire and ultimate peace agreement, or he cannot be trusted, in which case the options are:
(a) fight to the death, either of Russia or Ukraine; or
(b) reach some kind of cease fire/peace agreement and hope for the best.
Ukraine really cannot win a fight to the death unless NATO takes an active (boots on the ground) roll, in which case we have WWIII, with China the wildcard (in my opinion, they would let Russia lose but capture much of the Far East while NATO was distracted in Europe).
Under scenario b, Ukraine does what it can to reach the best deal for the country and its people under circumstances that are most likely to result in Putin holding to the deal. That cane be best achieved by relying on America/NATO for as much military threat to Russia as America/NATO are willing to tolerate, and some substantive involvement of America/NATO in the future Ukraine such that Russia holds itself at a distance, much the way we keep a force in South Korea to keep North Korea at bay. NATO is unlikely to be of assistance in getting to a peace deal, because Russia will not tolerate Ukraine being a NATO country on its border and NATO appears to lack the money/willpower to protect Ukraine in the long term (otherwise, Ukraine wouldn't have been at risk in the first instance). Ukraine clearly cannot handle it on their own - as Zelinksy pointed out, Russia took the Crimea and when no outside forces came to Ukraine's assistance, Russia kept the Crimea, with Ukraine impotent to change things. So for the past few years, Zelinsky has been like the bullied kid hiding behind his defender and screaming threats about what "he" will do to Russia, which works only to the extent that the defender (here America) puts up with it.
I do understand the incredible frustration that foreign countries have in dealing with us - we effectively view 2020-2024 as being the "United Biden States of America" and 2025 on as "United Trump States of America" (e.g., Trump saying that Putin's breaking the prior cease-fire occurring under Biden and not Trump), while the rest of the world views us simply as America (or at least wishes they could do so). But the reality is, the best thing for Ukraine, assuming the USA is unwilling to fund them indefinitely and risk WWIII, is the deal that he was ostensibly there to sign.
Could people stop confidently writing things that are both untrue and easily checked?
bagoh20 (1:22pm): "Russia has twice as many troops, 5X as many tanks, 10X as many military aircraft, and a leader who doesn't care how many lives are lost. That last one is the only parity with Ukraine."
Russia has 1.47 times as many troops if you count only active duty, 1.58 times as many if you count reserves: nowhere near twice (link). They have around 2,000 tanks left after losing 7,000+ to Ukraine's 1,000-2,000, nowhere near five times as many (link). Airplanes? Got me, but they're no longer flying into Ukraine much, just firing from far behind the front lines. So the things you say are unequal are in fact relatively equal, and the thing you say is equal (not caring about lives lost) is not.
The idea that peace is possible in Ukraine without a complete defeat of Russia is absurd. Russian propagandists openly say that any cease-fair along the current front lines would only be used to rearm for a rematch, that they will replace their losses by drafting Ukrainian men, and that the Baltics or Poland or Finland are next to be invaded. Then again, defeat is getting nearer. Z-bloggers have started saying that the occupied territory is all crap, not worth the deaths and expense, and that Russia proper is plenty big enough, so it looks like Putin may be preparing the people for a withdrawal. That plus the appearance of donkeys and horses on the front lines are clues that defeat is near.
Zelenskyyy; "Have you ever been to Ukraine? Have you ever been to Ukraine, that you say what problems we have?"
Vance; "Why, gosh, no. Now you mention it, I've never been to Ukraine, I haven't a clue what your problems are, and I should just keep my big, fat, recently-elected mouth shut. Thank you so much for pointing that out, and here's another $500 billion. Don, do you have any extra pocket change for Vlad here? He's so broke he had to cancel his country's elections. Can you imagine?"
tolkien: "This should just have been a show up, thank you for all your help, sign, smile and shake hands moment (see UK PM Starmer yesterday). That's what was expected. That's why there were 2 podiums ready. Zelensky was not prepared. If he didn't like the deal, he shouldn't have gone."
Despite the gibberish Bob Boyd is peddling (Trump was set up to tag team Zelensky.....Jesus. Pull the other one), tolkien has it exactly right.
This was an almost done deal (apparently, Trump had reduced his requirements for repayment to the US to $90B, amongst other arrangements) and required only signatures to complete.
But, as others have noted, Zelensky made a point to meet with New Soviet Democratical leaders and many of them told him directly that they and the American people "stand behind Ukraine" (read: unlimited cash and gear for as long as the sun rises in the East, endless grift and graft, a world of possibilities!)
And the little cokehead believed them. Clearly believed them. And then, near the END of the sit down, decided he would attempt to reopen the negotiations to reset along biden dementia lines.
Diplomatic insanity.
But music to the ears of many apparently.
Also, on the conspiracy theorist side, Trump at this point likely knows what level of collusion, blackmail, bribery, etc. are behind the CIA's involvement in Zelinsky becoming president and squelching the investigation into Hunter Biden, and what/how much he got in return, that likely color the whole interaction that we are not aware of.
Trump speaks.
Nails it.
"So what can be inferred from Trump's decision to tag team Zelensky and hammer him like that in front of the press?".
I think you have that backwards. Trump was expecting a bunch of flowery vacuities, a signing ceremony, and some more flowery vacuities. With a rather uncomfortable luncheon in the middle. Zelenskyy ambushed him with a folder full of grisly war photos, and tried to tough-talk Vance. The little shit is lucky he's not on the next flight to Guantanamo. Sealed in a barrel.
Myself at 3:06pm: "Morons like you keep arguing that Russia is both a threat that will show up on our shores at any minute!!!!!.....which the midget tried arguing today.....
.....and Russia is so weak they are reduced to using pitch forks and garden tools in their assaults and wheelbarrows to transport their wounded....all with a russki GDP less than 3/4's that of Italy!"
And right on time, Weevil at 3:26pm: "Then again, defeat is getting nearer. Z-bloggers have started saying that the occupied territory is all crap, not worth the deaths and expense, and that Russia proper is plenty big enough, so it looks like Putin may be preparing the people for a withdrawal. That plus the appearance of donkeys and horses on the front lines are clues that defeat is near."
Gee, I guess Zelensky was saying those donkeys and horsies and potentially lambs and goats as well will be menacing the US shoreline anytime now!
Probably with lamb-born lasers and donkey artillery.
From Ukraine refugees in the USA I heard that Ukraine is so desperate for soldiers they are now using drones to chase down their own male citizens to send them to fight.While some men did enlist to defend their homeland, many of the men bought medical exemptions (bribery is the norm in Ukraine) and fled the country.It is not just money we have been sending Ukraine it is bombs.We have seriously depleted our own stock.That will take years to replenish.If we are attacked now our ability to defend ourselves is compromised.We just don't have the stock to keep sending arms even if we want to.
Trump has made clear this is it, no more money and/or weapons.Ukraine is out of bodies to do the fighting.Part of leading is knowing when you have to eat the humble pie and Zelensky clearly does not. With Zelensky leading the way Russia is going to end up controlling all Ukraine.
Zelensky was out of line, but i'm sure Trump must realize that to get a deal you have to have some face-saving tidbit for the other guy, so he can walk away at least pretending to have won something. I doubt Trump wants to be seen as just making a deal with Putin to carve up Ukraine.
Putin should be taken out..
The entire EU - cannot do it.
The US is tired to fighting and paying for endless wars.
jim5301 said...
80+% of Americans don't trust Putin. 80+% of commentators on this blog think Putin is a good guy. You're outnumbered.
Yeah, uh-huh. Name one who thinks Putin is a good guy. Defend your position.
I've said from the beginning- neither one is a good guy, but the Ukrainians bleeding the Soviet military is a good thing for us and Europe.
When Ukraine gave up it's nukes to Russia- the deal was simple. The West, including the USA, and Europe, would defend Ukraine's territory against Russian encroachment. That deal was breached in February 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea and annexed it- and the West, including the USA under Nobel Peace Prize winner Obama- did zip diddly squat nothing. And the same when Ukraine was invaded in February 2022 when Obama's puppet Biden was POTUS- we did nothing. Funny- from 2016-2020 when Trump was POTUS- Russia was quiescent, and didn't invade anyone.
Cacimbo: "Trump has made clear this is it, no more money and/or weapons.Ukraine is out of bodies to do the fighting.Part of leading is knowing when you have to eat the humble pie and Zelensky clearly does not. With Zelensky leading the way Russia is going to end up controlling all Ukraine."
Oh, don't worry. The Ukraine-iacs are fully prepared to move NATO and US troops into Ukraine. They've been denying it everyday but there is no other option and they know it.....and its what they want. The neo-con crowd wants Putin removed from power and russia to be carved up into about 15 provinces for easier parceling out to establishment entities and individuals and there is no price, paid by others naturally, that the neo-con crowd won't sacrifice to that goal.
The secondary goal of just such a strategy, also intended by the neo-con crowd, is the studious and passionate avoidance of every and any focus on the ChiComs and what is happening in Asia and across the globe with our only actual existential threat level opponent.
That's why they keep using language which should be reserved for the ChiCom's against Russia, like the little coked up midget did today in the oval office telling us what we would be "feeling" when russia was at our shore.....which is never going to happen and never could happen because.....with what, exactly?
Really stupid by Zelensky. He had very few cards to play and now he has even fewer. To alienate your primary support is not a bright move. Obviously Zelensky missed negotiations 101 in school. It teaches that when you have few bargaining chips you must carefully use the ones you have. Trump very clearly outlined what the requirement was for further US involvement on Ukraine's future (minerals and willingness to make some concessions to Russia based on reality on the ground). Zelensky either missed the signals completely or he forgot he was no longer dealing with a president with half a brain or, perhaps, he is either as crooked as charged or just plain dumb.
The first fact that must be accounted for is that the Ukraine border set after the fall of the Soviet Union was a historical border that had no relationship to the conditions when the Soviet Union fell. Many of the eastern provinces were majority Russian ethnic and Sevastopol was the major base for the Russian Navy's Black Sea fleet. Crimea was only added to the Ukraine in 1954 by Khrushchev. Before then it was part of Catherine the Great's additions to Russia
These two facts have always put Russia at odds with the Ukraine. When the Obama administration let Russia take the Crimean peninsula without a fight, they, in effect, sanctioned the Russian claim with some toothless sanctions. Russia was emboldened to take another bite by seeing the west's response and with Biden's limited incursion talk, they bit and bit hard.
Any agreement to give back the Crimea and the eastern Russian majority provinces or add Ukraine to NATO is a non starter with Russia and it's best to recognize that fact. But, in negations, you also have to have your non-starters that don't overlap the other parties non-starters. Trump's first non starters are continued war, major financial support, and American troops on the ground. Zelensky's non starters conflict with both the Russian and Trump non starters, so until he recognizes the realities and works with the administration he will out of the loop. Zelensky should have come and had a nice mineral signing agreement to get American financial involvement rather than try to push his more aid and more fighting request. Zelensky blew up the meeting and got the response he deserved.
THE COLLECTIVE LEFT HIVEMIND:
"Trump sides with Putin!"
That is about as far as the Soviet morons can think.
Remember this not-so-oldie but goodie?
"Biden lost temper with Zelenskyy in June phone call when Ukrainian leader asked for more aid
Biden had barely finished telling Zelenskyy he’d just greenlighted another $1 billion in military assistance when the Ukrainian president started listing all the additional help he needed."
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-lost-temper-zelenskyy-phone-call-ukraine-aid-rcna54592
The little s*** really thought he could go at Trump the way he went at our dementia boy "president".
That was weird. Zelensky had to have been well aware of what the conditions were before he entered the Oval Office. I can think of a couple of reasons why he pulled this stunt, but I can't think of any that don't make him look stupid. Did he get some last minute assurances from European leaders that they would finance the war and put boots on the ground? Was it just a face saving performance? Did he think he could relitigate the deal by getting American media's cooperation? Did he just want to vent his frustration?
Whatever the reason it was not conducive to a peaceful solution to the war that is ravaging his country and that Ukraine is sure to lose. My personal reaction is "Adios m-f. Don'tlet the door hit you on the way out".
Zelensky was one signature short of ensuring that Ukraine, as it is today, would survive. Trump was prepared to give him that signature and Zelensky blew it. Zelensky in one brief moment alienated his chief logistical support and opened the way for Putin to, in fact, absorb all of Ukraine. Great job!
Why does Zelinski show up wearing an Antifa outfit?
Both of these clips are from the very excellent John Adams mini-series from 2008. Zelensky needed to come off like this, but instead he came more off like this.
Bulwark, against Augustine's advice to always think the best of people instead of the worst, thinks the worst of the episode. In the strongest terms! They have an eternal clickbait business model. It's worth looking at their daily titles for how awful Trump is on every aspect of everything, 24/7.
Who knew there were so many globalists on the Althouse Blog?
TRUMP: I think you're gonna find, when all this shit is over and done, I think you're gonna find yourself one smilin' motherfucker. Thing is Volodymyr, right now you got drones. But painful as it may be, drones don't last without the American taxpayer.
Now that's a hard motherfuckin' fact of life, but it's a fact of life your ass is gonna hafta git realistic about. This world is filled to the brim with unrealistic semi-dictators who thought their relationship with France aged like wine. Besides, even if you went all the way, what would you be? President of the Kursk region? Who gives a shit? I doubt you can even get an Amex Black card based on that.
(A hand lays an envelope full of money on the table in front of Volodymyr. Volodymyr picks it up.)
TRUMP: Now the night of the negotiation, you may fell a slight sting, that's pride fuckin' wit ya. Fuck pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that shit. 'Cause a year from now, when you're kickin' it in the European capitals you're gonna say, "Donald Trump was right."
VOLODYMYR: I got no problem with that.
TRUMP: On March the fifth, your ass goes down.
Volodymyr nods his head: "yes."
TRUMP: Say it!
VOLODYMYR: On March the fifth, my ass goes down.
Just scrolled through comments on X. Scott Adams quote “We’re living in completely different realities. And that’s the way of the world.” is on display in real time there. Both about the Zelensky-Trump meeting and the Starmer-Trump meeting.
Not to mention what DOGE is doing. And all the posts that people who voted for Trump are regretting their decision? They're all living on another planet in that different reality they inhabit...
I won't call this "public diplomacy" a disaster. But I do think it wasn't a good idea. Intense negotiations are just that--and Zelensky was on notice that this would be an intense negotiations. I've walked out of negotiations like that to make a point. Unlike Zelensky I've never been thrown out of negotiations--but you come close sometimes. Ultimately a deal can get done (doesn't always happen--but it's always a possibility).
But what was Zelensky thinking? He comes to the table holding a hand with at best a pair of deuces; and he knows that Trump holds a full house--indeed Trump owns the danged house. And he tries to bluff his way through? Adiso chump, you've burned your bridges.
Trump specializes in slaughtering sacred cows. Not even slaughtering; bludgeoning them to death, breaking every bone, then feeding them, horns, hooves, and all, into a wood chipper.
Remember McCain and "I like people who don't get captured?"
Trump and his base are sick of having people or concepts designated as unimpeachable. The whole definition of populism is re-opening issues that were deemed closed to debate. Trump delights in doing so.
The rest of the West parades Zelensky around like the Infant of Prague or something. Trump just shattered the statue.
JSM
XI and China are creamin...Putin very happy, Russia Russia Russia Righties are now lined up in view of all America with the CCP and Soviets. Russia will sell minerals to trump China will soon be on TOP of it all after these last 5 weeks. Great Television says the Russian asset..it was a set up all along..And the guy who voted against aid to Ukraine all along trying to be relevant since Elon has taken his place..The new RCP Republican Communist Party! WHAT A QUEST Ronnie RAY GUNS flippin in his box!
@ Kevin
Those that saw the movie know what happens next. I’m not sure Trump would like how that played out.
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