AND: "This is gonna be great television — I'll tell you that."
February 28, 2025
Trump and Vance get remarkably intense with Zelensky.
ADDED: The scene is described by Peter Baker for the NYT: "Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance castigated Mr. Zelensky for not being grateful enough for U.S. support in its war with Russia and sought to strong-arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate. With voices raised and tempers flaring, Mr. Trump threatened to abandon Ukraine altogether if Mr. Zelensky did not go along. Talking over the Ukrainian leader, Mr. Vance told Mr. Zelensky that it was 'disrespectful' for him to come to the Oval Office and make his case in front of the American news media and demanded that he thank Mr. Trump for his leadership. Mr. Trump jumped in and told the Ukrainian leader, 'You’re not really in a good position right now” and that “you’re gambling with World War III.' 'You’re either going make a deal or we’re out,” Mr. Trump added. “And if we’re out, you’ll fight it out and I don’t think it’s going to be pretty.' The exchange in front of television cameras was one of the most dramatic moments ever to play out in public in the Oval Office...."
Posts
252 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 252 of 252RCOCEAN II, you might be right. Trump’s goal may have been to show the world that Zelensky is not a good faith negotiator and we need to walk away. (Which is why I shouldn’t think Trump needs my negotiating tips.)
Zelinsky showing up like he's dressed for a soccer game was probably a sign of his disrespect for Trump.
Watch all 50 minutes.
Trump was very gracious in the beginning.
Zelinski was there for himself. Not his people.
Zelinski may not be a bad guy - but he is playing this wrong.
Zelinksi is not at war with Trump - but that's how he played it. He played it like an American cult democrat.
the media: "Europe Stands with Ukraine!"
Great - Yo Europe - SEND IN YOUR TROOPS. Write a 350 million dollar check.
BTW- Zelinksi asked Trump for troops with his demand for security.
The quickest way to understanding here is what is the expected end result here for anyone. Support for US troops in Ukraine must be in single digits in the US. Ukraine has shown zero ability to take advantage of the low numbers of Russians on the ground. So it's attritional tactics all the way. Ukraine is bleeding to death this way. The Euros can't do anything, they have no military strength. There's no chance that Ukraine can even take back the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant which is a 1/5 of all the power generated in Ukraine.
This whole situation is a shit sandwich.
"The EU Stands with Ukraine"
Great - pay up and send in your troops.
Do US media hacks and EU snobs think this is a #"Hashtag" even?
"The EU Stands with Ukraine"
Great - pay up and send in your troops.
Do US media hacks and EU snobs think this is a #"Hashtag" event? *fixed*
The Collective left are really mis-reading this.
The collective left want endless war - US troops on the ground and endless US tax payer funding.... of The war started under Crook Joe.
RCOCEAN and rhhardin, you might be right. The point may have been to unmask Zelensky as a bad faith negotiator and give us the rationale for walking away. (Which is why I shouldn’t be giving negotiating advice to Donald Trump.)
He’s not wrong…
https://x.com/JamminLu/status/1895568030371139783
another correction.
350 billion - no million.
Now it’s not only important but imperative that we audit and determine where all the $$$ (cash and equipment) ended up. A mechanism for Biden money laundering?
“What if a bomb drops on your head right now?” is one of Trump’s greatest hits, and he has an expansive catalog.
Both the Ukraine and Russia are losing, and will continue losing for years and decades to come. Ukraine will not get the old borders back, and Russia will have to settle for what they have garnered so far.
Eurasia is on the cusp of several crises at once, and the best anyone can do at this point is to stand clear of the falling debris.
Sad.
I watched VZ’s interview on Fox and I’m more than ever convinced that Trump, Vance and Graham planned this whole thing.
The reason why I say that is a Trump story I learned in 2015. Donald took Ivanka to a real estate closing on a golf course. This was right after she graduated from college.
Trump knew his seller desperately needed to sell. At the closing table, Trump made up a bunch of stuff about defects with the real estate. Pure lies. Trump won’t sign.
The seller knew about Trump’s love of litigation. He didn’t have the time to sort it out for years in court. The seller cut millions off the price and the deal closed.
Trump does not want to give Ukraine security guarantees. No US troops. VZ wants that because he said today that Vlad can’t be trusted in a ceasefire.
Trump pushed VZ into a public corner in the Oval. And then he didn’t apologize on Fox. Graham - a huge Ukraine backer - said VZ should resign.
JD jumped in but Marco held back.
It was all planned. VZ must apologize or he’s out. And he must agree to no security guarantees. Trump will get the deal he wants. That’s it.
And Sen. Murphy from CT needs to STFU.
Just watch.
To paraphrase Scott Galloway, for $60B/yr of funding to Ukraine, the US ties up one of its biggest enemies (Russia, for those of you uncertain of that) in conflict, and a lot of the money comes back to US red state defense contractors. Hardly a raw deal. Ignorance of this fact by the US right is irritating.
No, we get it. The facts that hundreds of thousands of young men are dying and that Ukraine is not going to win the fucking war, and Russia has lots of nukes pale in comparison to big bucks for US defense contractors, which is great for our 401K's.
Carry on with your war, boys!
Embarrassing. I wonder how many wars, and which wars, we'd still be fighting if the negotiations were all done live on television.
Was Zelenskyy asking for it? Even if so, it was bad optics giving it to him in public. I don't have anything against the Charlie Chaplin of the steppes. Netanyahu's been begging for a presidential slap down for 30 years and still hasn't gotten one.
“ Trump wants them to sign away 50% of their mineral rights or be left to Putin's tender mercies.”
Trump asked for 50% of certain rare earth minerals, not “of their mineral rights” and the US was going to provide personnel and capital for development. In what I have looked up these are very speculative reserves and are not proven at all.
In WW2 FDR gave England Lend Lease aid. Did he give it for free? No the UK had to pay it back and did not make the last payment until 2006. So when you are invaded you still need to pay your own way. I was against the deal because it was way too generous to Ukraine and would have led to US personnel being in a war zone that could have led to US troops in country, Zellensky was a fool for not signing. Why try to be in NATO if the US is going to cover you? 50 pct of war aid was from the US, for free.
Ukraine is a corrupt country, it was a source of payoff for Joe and Hunter. It was also a sketchy source of Trump’s impeachment. I think Zelenskyy thought he had enough dirt to say fu to the US and get his way. He was wrong.
Having a proxy war to bleed Russia punished them severely, but there are more North Korean soldiers on the way. Maybe we have bled them enough.
Test
Test2
This is the longest thread of comments I have ever read on the net. All of it is good. I was delighted to see the Bagoh2o comment. I have missed him. I previously wondered if he had changed his name to Quaestor because they both seem to make sense but Bagoh2o doesn't engage in personal verbal combat.
Zelensky's interview on Fox was fascinating to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfqLcBwUT_E
Weevil: "Because I'm pretty sure he was talking about $100B of aid, as in equipment and ammunition, not $100B in "funds", as in all money."
Shorter Weevil: Zelensky never said that, and this what he meant when he did.
From Ukrayinska Pravda, reposted by Yahoo News:
"So, when people talk about US$177 billion or even US$200 billion, we’ve never received that. We’re talking about tangible things because this aid didn’t come as cash but rather as weapons, which amounted to about US$70 billion.
But when it’s said that Ukraine received US$200 billion to support the army during the war – that’s not true. I don’t know where all that money went. Perhaps it’s true on paper with hundreds of different programmes – I won’t argue, and we’re immensely grateful for everything. But in reality, we received about US$76 billion. It’s significant aid, but it’s not US$200 billion."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/zelenskyy-ukraine-received-us-76-184337849.html
And here Drag-ass comes up with a quotation that shows exactly what I said, that it wasn't cash, it was weapons, and that the US constantly overstated what was sent. Being too stupid to understand how tit-for-tat works seems to go along with a more general stupidity. Not surprising, really.
By the way, one problem with calculating how much aid the US has sent is that Biden's men liked to exaggerate, and calculate the 'value' of a 40-year-old piece of obsolete-but-still-very-useful equipment as what it would cost to build an exact replica from scratch today. It made them feel more generous.
IMHO, the Russia-Ukraine war has turned into a godawful stalemated battle of attrition that neither side can outright win. So either the killing continues or a crappy (from Ukraine's viewpoint) peace agreement is reached.
The only real winner here is NATO: Russia has beem weakened militarily, their economy is damaged, and NATO is now stronger than ever due to the inclusion of Sweden and Finland into the alliance.
The addition of those 2 western countries has provided far more security to Europe than admitting Ukraine to NATO ever could have achieved.
I believe Trump understands this new reality, and that's why he's pushing for a peace deal. At this point continuing the killing is pointless beyond stupidity.
rh said…"the point was to establish disagreement, not to convince Zelensky. Indeed the point was to provoke him. Played out for Putin's benefit as part of that side of the negotiation.
Trump doesn't have to please Zelensky to get the deal he can then offer. He has to please Putin."
I'm on with this assessment. Trump is negotiating with Putin. He has a better chance of success if Putin doesn't view Trump as Zelensky's lap dog.
Test
Maybe some of you should view the first 40 minutes before the last 10 minute blow up. Zerohedge (a great read by the way) has some of the details.
http://zerohedge.com/geopolitical/trump-meets-zelensky-says-minerals-deal-be-signed-today-will-use-ukraine-rare-earths
"In the first 40 minutes, Zelensky kept trying to go beyond what was negotiated in the deal. When Trump was asked a question, it was always "we'll see." Zelensky made blanket assertions that there would be no negotiating with Putin, and that Russia would pay for the war.
The argument started when Trump pointed out that it would be hard to make a deal if you talk about Putin the way Zelensky does. Vance interjects to make the reasonable point that Biden called Putin names and that didn't get us anywhere.
The Zelensky/Trump dynamic was calm and stable. It was when Vance spoke that Zelensky started to interrogate him. Throughout the press conference to that point, everyone was making their arguments directly to the audience. Zelensky decided to challenge Vance and ask him hostile questions. He went back to his point that Putin never sticks to ceasefires, once again implying that negotiations are pointless. Why on earth would you do this? Then came the fight we all saw."
Narr said: "Ukraine will have to settle for what they have garnered so far."
Dude, using that term was just plain cruel to the Prof/hostess here!
David Frum correctly writes:
Trump and Vance have revealed to Americans and America’s allies their alignment with Russia, and their animosity toward Ukraine in general and its president in particular. The truth is ugly. however misguided. Trump and Vance displayed in the Oval Office a highly personal hatred. There was no effort here to make a case for American interests.
“Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me,” Trump angrily explained. “He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia.”
Vance complained that Zelensky had traveled to Pennsylvania to thank U.S. ammunition workers, because the appearance amounted to campaigning for the Democrats.
The national-security system of the West is led by two men who cannot be trusted to defend America’s allies—and who deeply sympathize with the world’s most aggressive dictator.
From what I understand, most of the rare earths are in the areas that Russia already occupies. Time to make a deal with Putin.
Behold what a negotiation looks like with a President that is not fatally compromised by corruption. Zelensky has nothing on Trump and it shows. Biden couldn't turn down Z even if he had the brain power to do it. Trump should throw getting the truth on that from Zelensky into the deal, even if it's a little late.
The idea that peace is possible in Ukraine without a complete defeat of Russia is absurd.
What, exactly, "complete defeat of Russia" look like?
Ukrainian troops in Moscow, Putin on trial for war crimes, the US and Europe dividing the spoils? China sitting quietly and nobody ever thinking about using nukes?
Does that sound rational to you?
""Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me,” Trump angrily explained. “He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia.”"
Trump is exactly right on this. Clinton, Comey, et al. were playing a very dangerous game.
"Vance complained that Zelensky had traveled to Pennsylvania to thank U.S. ammunition workers, because the appearance amounted to campaigning for the Democrats."
Also correct. I wondered at the time, "what the hell does Zelensky think he's doing?"
Off italics.
I'd delete the comment if I could, but I no longer can.
"To paraphrase Scott Galloway, for $60B/yr of funding to Ukraine, the US ties up one of its biggest enemies"
How about we work toward not having this nuclear enemy. That's what Trump is going for. We have no reasonable way to defeat Russia directly or in a proxy war. We only get exacerbation at great expense to us all, not to mention the endless death of the innocent and the brave. Trump wants a new way, a smarter way, of peaceful competition and cooperation. Russian citizens are more than willing to explore that over war. We should be too. Trump may well accomplish more than the last 70 years of unbelievable expense and death with nothing more that the weapon of open-mindedness.
What Russia has garnered, not Ukraine. Moondawggie made me go back and make sure.
"How about we work toward not having this nuclear enemy."
Amen.
The democrats 'Russia is our mortal enemy' drumbeat seems to have started coincident with Hillary Clinton's Russiagate scam. Does it predate that? For the safety of the world, it needs to be stopped.
Finland and Sweden, long neutral, joined NATO in the wake of Putin's invasion for a reason.
"Europe spent only $18 billion total on Ukraine aid last year.
They spent more money on Russian oil and gas. But boy, can they tweet."-from X
A complete defeat of Russia means driving them out of Ukraine, all of it, including Crimea, after which they get Kursk back. It also means they return all prisoners of war, getting their own back of course. And they return the tens of thousands of civilians they have taken to Russia against their will, including the thousands of children they have stolen from their parents and handed over to Russians as adoptees. Any residents of Donbas or Crimea who want to live under Russian rule, and any war criminals who think it advisable to get out of occupied Ukraine, can move to Russia. Any Russians who moved to Crimea or Donbas after the Russians invaded can bugger off back to Russia. Ideally, they should pay back rent on all the Ukrainian property they've been squatting in, but that's probably not going to happen. Any ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tartars who live in Russia and prefer to live in Ukraine must be free to move there.
Russia should pay reparations, but won't. However, Ukraine's allies can hand over the frozen Russian assets they're holding to Ukraine, so Russia won't have to pay directly for rebuilding Ukraine.
How to make sure the Russians abide by the internationally-recognized borders once they're back behind them, and don't keep up a long-term cross-border insurgency? If they don't, Ukraine will be able to blockade all their Black Sea ports with their new Turkish-built frigates, Sea Baby nautical drones, and long-range missiles. The Russians would have to behave.
actual items said..."To paraphrase Scott Galloway, for $60B/yr of funding to Ukraine, the US ties up one of its biggest enemies (Russia, for those of you uncertain of that) in conflict, and a lot of the money comes back to US red state defense contractors. Hardly a raw deal. Ignorance of this fact by the US right is irritating."
That is morally reprehensible. How many people have died in this war?
"And the US abandoning Ukraine with the off-chance it leads to WW3, that’s just irresponsible and bad leadership by the US."
Off-chance of WW3? I don't think you grasp what WW3 would be like.
"Ukraine is an ally."
When did that happen?
Zelensky wanted security guarantees. He says he can't trust Russia, which is probably true, but what was unspoken was that he can't trust the US either, which is also true, at least in the sense of, what happens in 4 years if control of the WH changes hands again? Even if he trusts Trump, Trump won't be around forever.
It's become a question anyone who makes a deal with the US has to ask themselves, unfortunately. The parties and the nation are so divided that almost everything done by one party will likely be undone by the other at the first opportunity.
I'm not defending Zelensky here. Just trying to think about things from his perspective. The fact is, Zelensky doesn't have any power. Trump can include him in the negotiations or not. He did Zelensky the courtesy of bringing him to the WH and putting on a show. Zelensky seems to have believed he could play over Trump's head to the American people and the press. Somebody gave Zelensky some bad advice. Probably somebody who wants to derail the peace process and keep Trump from succeeding. Maybe the Europeans, maybe some Americans, maybe both. Anyway Zelensky screwed the pooch.
But I bet he'll be back and will be wearing a nice suit.
Watch for the disappearance of the word 'transparency' from the MSM vocabulary, at least for awhile. Until they cook up another Russia Collusion type conspiracy against Trump.
OK, watched the whole 40 min, my opinion hasn’t changed significantly. I guess, Zelensky should have kept his mouth shut when Trump and Vance were talking nonsense. Well, actually he did hold out and not challenge Trump at first. Just when Vance started in, he challenged Vance. Then that led to the back and forth with Trump.
But watching the whole thing, it wasn’t Vance who brought up the former admin first. Trump kept going back to Biden this, Biden that. Why does Trump keep talking about Biden? It’s so bizarre. We are talking about now and the future, why the constant need to dig at Biden?
Coach Shottenheimer, you’ve been coaching the Cowboys for a month or so now, how are you preparing to compete with the Eagles in your upcoming game? Well, first let me tell you how bad Coach McCarthy was last year against the Eagles, just terrible, I mean really bad. That would be completely unacceptably bad leadership.
So I guess Zelensky just has to sit there and listen to Trump and Vance talk nonsense and take it. And Trump fills the room with sycophant media–OAN is invited but not the AP–just crazy times. No pushback on Trump making no sense. Ceasefire with no security guarantees? Security guarantees are the easy part and can come later? No, that’s the whole rub, that’s the hard part, the security guarantee. If that were the easy part, Ukraine would be in NATO and none of this would be happening. The security guarantee is everything!
Do Trump fans really not mind him making things up and just repeating himself over and over? I guess I just don’t get it. Like when I took my kids to see Wicked, I was like, I don’t get it, it’s just not for me. That’s how I feel listening to Trump speak, it’s just not for me. But he’s the president, not a musical, I can’t just tune him out!
Molly Hemingway:
"Last week I was telling a WH reporter that normal Americans don't love the strategy-free Ukraine war as much as the DC complex does and I think he had never considered that reality before and was taken aback a bit."
Trump wants peace. Leftists lose their minds.
Trump wants to cut wasteful and corrupt spending: Leftists lose their minds.
and on and on...
It is not just that Zelensky is tied to Trump's first impeachment, it is also that Zelensky actively campaigned with Harris. I saw people on X remarking that Biden/Harris never treated Netanyahu this way, but Netanyahu didn't campaign against Biden/Harris.
@KatiePavlich
Pro-tips:
• Wear a suit to meet with the President of the United States
• Be overwhelmingly grateful for the generosity of the American people
• Don’t campaign in Pennsylvania
• Don’t pose for Vogue in the middle of a war
• Sign a mineral agreement that gives your country security
"Somebody gave Zelensky some bad advice. Probably somebody who wants to derail the peace process and keep Trump from succeeding. Maybe the Europeans, maybe some Americans, maybe both....
What were Victoria Nuland's movements the past few days? Susan Rice? Samantha Powell? Maybe somebody chumped Zelensky, big time - somebody with enough credibility to make him commit.
Zelenskyy "actively campaigned with Harris"? Really? I recall that he visited the factory in Scranton where men were working double shifts to make artillery ammunition for his troops, and that the governor the state and the local congressman accompanied him. Would he have done that if they hadn't been Democrats? I think so. Did he ever say anything about who Americans should vote for? I don't remember him doing any such thing.
Narr, I apologize for the misquote.
But really, were you baiting the Prof with "garnered?"
Post a Comment
Comments older than 2 days are always moderated. Newer comments may be unmoderated, but are still subject to a spam filter and may take a few hours to get released. Thanks for your contributions and your patience.