January 8, 2024

"Being evangelical once suggested regular church attendance, a focus on salvation and conversion and strongly held views on specific issues such as abortion."

"Today, it is as often used to describe a cultural and political identity: one in which Christians are considered a persecuted minority, traditional institutions are viewed skeptically and Mr. Trump looms large.... At a recent rally in Waterloo, Iowa, Mr. Trump cast Christians as a broadly persecuted group facing down a government weaponized against them. Catholics are the current target of 'the communists, Marxists and fascists,' he said, citing a recent controversy about a retracted F.B.I. memo, and adding that 'evangelicals will not be far behind.'... As ties to church communities have weakened, the church leaders who once rallied the faithful behind causes and candidates have lost influence. A new class of thought leaders has filled the gap: social media personalities and podcasters, once-fringe prophetic preachers and politicians...."

From "Trump Is Connecting With a Different Type of Evangelical Voter/They are not just the churchgoing, conservative activists who once dominated the G.O.P." (NYT).
Abortion policy is “one thing I don’t really stress,” said JoAnn Sweeting, who pulled her eighth-grade son out of school to attend a rally for Mr. Trump last month in Coralville, Iowa. Referring to the overturning of Roe v. Wade, she said: “I feel like the policies set for us now seem to be working.”

Ms. Sweeting described herself as an evangelical but does not attend church anymore. She sees Mr. Trump as a man who believes in God and prays. But the reasons she supports him, she said, are his approach to the economy and his progress on building a wall along the southern border.

She also likes his bluntness. “He doesn’t try to sugarcoat things,” she said....

ADDED: My link goes directly to the F.B.I. memo, which I don't remember reading about before. Why hasn't that got much more coverage? The NYT links to a NYT article from December 29th, so that is some coverage, but, though I read the NYT every day and look for material about politics and religion, I had not seen it at the time.

The headline is "Biden’s Christian ‘Persecution’? We Assess Trump’s Recent Claims. Former President Donald J. Trump has repeatedly accused the Biden administration of criminalizing Christians, and Catholics in particular, for their faith. Here are the facts." 

So the focus is on what Trump might have said wrong, not what the F.B.I. might be doing wrong and whether Biden is responsible. Is our Catholic president involved in persecuting Catholics?!

From that December 29th article:
“I don’t know what it is with Catholics,” Mr. Trump said during a rally in Coralville, Iowa. “They are going violently and viciously after Catholics.”

Mr. Trump repeated similar comments days later at another rally, in Waterloo, and in a video posted before Christmas he said that “Americans of faith are being persecuted like nothing this nation has ever seen before.”...

The article quotes Trump: "Under Crooked Joe Biden, Christians and Americans of faith are being persecuted like nothing this nation has ever seen before. Catholics in particular are being targeted and evangelicals are surely on the watchlist as well.”

Here's how the NYT fact-checked that:

Experts say they are unaware of any data to support the idea that Catholics in the United States are being persecuted by the government for their faith — let alone at record levels.

“In terms of the evidence, I find it to be pretty hard to kind of support the idea that there’s a concerted, marked increase in a particular kind of Christian targeting,” said Jason Bruner, a religious studies professor at Arizona State University and historian who studies Christian persecution.

Why do people who are "unaware of any data" count as "experts"? Did Bruner even claim to have studied the current situation as opposed to the history of Christian persecution? His quote merely asserts that he finds it hard to believe there is evidence, not that he looked for it.

There is a second "expert" quoted:

“There’s a long history of discrimination against Catholics in the United States, from the framing way through the 1970s,” said Frank Ravitch, a professor of law and religion at Michigan State University. “And if anything, it’s probably better now in terms of nondiscrimination than it ever, probably, ever has been.” Mr. Trump’s claims, Mr. Ravitch said, show “such an incredible blindness to the history of anti-Catholicism in the U.S.”

He too seems only to be guessing that things are better now — "probably better now" — and to be called an expert because he's studied the history of Christian persecution in America. And why is he insulting Trump as incredibly blind for caring about persecution today? Just because it was worse at other times in history? That's not the standard for when it's appropriate to call attention to problems in the present!

But Trump did say Catholics were "persecuted like nothing this nation has ever seen before," so maybe that vaguely implies that what is happening now is worse than anything that has happened before, but literally he's only saying that what is happening now is different from anything before. Can Professor Ravitch detail what, in the past, was like that F.B.I. memo? 

As for the  F.B.I. memo, Trump had said: “The F.B.I. has been caught profiling devout Catholics as possible domestic terrorists and planning to send undercover spies into Catholic churches, just like in the old days of the Soviet Union.”

Here's how the NYT fact-checked that:

This needs context. Mr. Trump was likely referring to a leaked January memo prepared by the F.B.I.’s field office in Richmond, Va., that warned of the potential for extremism for adherents of a “radical-traditionalist Catholic” ideology. Republicans have criticized the memo for months.

But the memo was withdrawn and the nation’s top law enforcement officials have repeatedly denounced it....

We're told Attorney General Merrick B. Garland said he was "appalled" and  Christopher Wray said he was "aghast." And I'm astounded, amazed, and agog.

That's not reassuring. And it certainly doesn't show that Trump got it wrong.

114 comments:

Leland said...

I wonder what Jewish readers think of the NYT downplaying western religion persecution.

n.n said...

NYT advertises for ethical religions, notably the Pro-Choice religion popular in progressive sects directed through secular faith infamous for exercising liberal license in pursuit of democratic leverage, capital, and control with "benefits". Show me the bennies! and keep them politically congruent.

Quayle said...

Here is the direction Latter-day Saints are being led. The direction doesn't seem to be towards Trump (or almost any current politician) but seems to be more in the direction of Christ's teachings on loving your enemies.

Quayle said...

BTW, Russell Nelson is and was 99 years old when he gave that address last April.

lonejustice said...

Here's what Trump recently said in Iowa about his understanding of Christianity:

"Why do I have to repent or ask for forgiveness, if I am not making mistakes?" "I'm not sure I have ever asked God's forgiveness. I don't bring God into that picture."

About taking communion, Trump said: "We were having fun when I said I drink the wine, I eat the cracker, the whole room was laughing."

n.n said...

NYT downplaying western religion persecution.

NYT offers an alternative religion, an ethical religion, where mortal gods excuse their choices, their secular excesses, their uncivil rights, their liberal persuasion, their exclusive behavior, their monopolistic economy, their ethnic Spring-board, their class-disordered ideologies, their fraud, waste, and abuse.

n.n said...

I wonder what Jewish readers think of the NYT downplaying...

History originated yesterday, then evolved with peculiar curation, diverse tracts in common conflict, with human rites by choice, and murder, rape... rape-rape, torture... torture-torture, etc in service of social justice is a progressive conception with Dreams of Herr... never mind, in ouroboro fashion.

narciso said...

One can only recite the shahada any other faith doesnt matter

Gusty Winds said...

Other than the Jesuits, and Pope "anti-Christ" Francis, Trump has the American Christian base behind him. We'll see what the black Baptists do this year. We already know where college educated white women stand. Their degree is their religion.

What liberal atheists who hate Trump and Jesus don't understand, is Trump's sins are baked in. Womanizing...being rich...whatever else, but his sins are not Bill Clinton pedophilia, child mutilation, gender confusion...etc.

Trump is fighting the Pharisees and the Sadducees who look down upon the masses and celebrate their self-proclaimed purity.

And when it comes to the weaponization of the state against Christians, seems the Romans and today's United States Federal Gov't are much the same. WI Gov Tony Evers hates Christians so much the asshole can't even call a Christmas Tree, a Christmas Tree. It's a "Science Tree".

Tony Evers hates Jesus.

Rich said...

This isn't really true. Reagan, not Trump is responsible for converting white evangelicals into a core part of the GOP electoral base. Jimmy Carter was the first president post-FDR to really mobilize the vote and cultivate support during an election cycle from people like Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition. However, Carter effectively alienated this group by not bringing Robertson's acolytes into his administration after winning the 1976 election. Reagan learned the lesson and forged a more enduring alliance with white evangelicals. Unlike Carter, Reagan doled out cabinet positions to Christian conservatives, and a lot of money to affiliated groups. Reagan's additional innovation was that he forged an alliance between white evangelicals and conservative Catholics (two groups who were often directly opposed electorally before 1980). Trump's main "innovation" is that he has really driven away older, more moderate, college educated voters, who were part of the original Reagan GOP coalition. The evangelicals are a bigger force in the GOP now, because the GOP base is smaller than it was 40 years ago.

BG said...

The Colorado baker may differ on the opinion that there is no evidence of persecution of Christians.

Enigma said...

Tag: Covfefe nation

IMO this follows from the short attention spans and impulsive thinking of the social media era since the late 1990s. Few people today have the attention span to form any ethical-moral ideology, be they religious or secular. The old post-WW2 "secular humanists" were very into a type of structured non-Christian morality that was a lot like actual Christian morality.

The 1980s Christian right political movement was the last time enough people had structured viewpoints and the capacity to respond (be they on the religious right or pre-Clinton Democrats). After that, the entire country and world has broken down into smaller, shorter, simpler, and brand-driven thinking. For example, while young women today are generally pro-choice or pro-abortion, it'd not be hard to flip many of them pro-baby and pro-family, as every female biological capacity drives toward reproduction. But, the hypothetical fear of the removal of "choice," as loudly proclaimed by militants, virgins, and lesbians leads to much broader female avoidant-anxious abortion stance.

We are in myopic times. Danger results from lack of intellectual depth.

Jamie said...

I enjoy the very light touch they put on what it "used to be" to be evangelical. I am not evangelical, myself, so I have no personal knowledge. But I very much doubt that the NYT used to characterize evangelical Christians simply as people who attended church regularly, focused on salvation and conversion, and having views on specific issues like abortion. How anodyne is that?

Humperdink said...

@lonejustice. While your unattributed quotes are interesting, as a hard core evangelical I'd like to remind you that Trump appointed three, count 'em three, Supreme Court justices the led to Roe v. Wade being overturned. You deliberately refuse to see the forest for the trees, even with no leaves on their branches. As frauds go, you rank right up there.

Jersey Fled said...

https://nypost.com/2023/08/10/fbi-head-chris-wray-lied-about-targeting-catholics-he-owes-america-answers/

“In recent Congressional testimony, he (Wray) insisted that a January 2023 memo suggesting his agency’s resources be used against American citizens for the crime of — gasp! — being devout Catholics was a “single product by a single field office,” namely the Richmond field office.

That claim’s been given the lie by a newly surfaced version of the memo showing it to be the product of multiple offices, including Portland and Los Angeles.

That was conveniently redacted from the version of the memo he presented to the Senate Intelligence Committee in July.”

Why hasn’t Wray been impeached or indicted?

MadTownGuy said...

"Why do people who are "unaware of any data" count as "experts"?

There is no expert so blind as one that will not see.

Quayle said...

I believe the governing principle here is to ‘Give to the emperor the things that are the emperor’s, and to God the things that are God’s.’

Aggie said...

@lonejustice has done a good job showing how it works, when it comes to trying to discredit Trump. You dredge up some example with similarities to the case in point, and then you misrepresent it as far as possible so that it could be interpreted - with the right glasses on, the TDS ones - as supporting your cause. Supporting facts are incidental and optional.

I remember the story about that memo. The FBI was targeting devout Catholics, and attempting to group them with White Nationalists. Never mind that Catholics come in all colors. I think they were targeting groups such as Opus Dei, who are a subset with its own particular rules of religious expressions.

It seemed like it was along the early lines of a 'Whitmer' job. But it was a hot button issue, one that had obviously provoked a strong reaction with the public, and the FBI was caught with its pants down when confronted with the memo, and no conceivable, credible explanation on why they had been motivated to investigate in the first place - other than an 'op' against new set of perceived political opponents - hence, the effusive responses from Appalled Garland and Aghast Wray.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

That Catholics noticed the FBI were targeting some of them...

That's a big problem for the corrupt left. Best to write something snarky about Trump.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

What Trump might want to add:

The left view themselves as grand mobsters - entitled to their power and their grift.
The left also demand you obey and worship them. The grandest of false idols.

amr said...

Let's try Prof. Ravitch's quote replacing Catholics with other groups:

"There’s a long history of discrimination against [Blacks] in the United States, from the framing way through the 1970s, and if anything, it’s probably better now in terms of nondiscrimination than it ever, probably, ever has been.”... These claims show “such an incredible blindness to the history of [Racism] in the U.S.”

or

"There’s a long history of discrimination against [Jews] in the United States, from the framing way through the 1970s, and if anything, it’s probably better now in terms of nondiscrimination than it ever, probably, ever has been.”... These claims show “such an incredible blindness to the history of [Antisemitism] in the U.S.”

or

"There’s a long history of discrimination against [Women] in the United States, from the framing way through the 1970s, and if anything, it’s probably better now in terms of nondiscrimination than it ever, probably, ever has been.”... These claims show “such an incredible blindness to the history of [Sexism] in the U.S.”

or any other minority group of your choice: homosexuals, transsexuals, obese, disabled, homeless, addicts, Irish, etc.

AMDG said...

It has been said that Americans have not lost religion, they have just replaced fathi in God with other God figures (Climate Change, DEI, and a bevy of other false gods). I would posit that self identified Christians who don’t worship have replace faith in Jesus with a worship of Trump.

Through the years the Lord has worked through many different people. What they all have in common is that they serve the Lord, live virtuous lives, and understand that they are sinners.

Jesus is not going to work through one who is the poster child for the seven deadly sins and is too arrogant to ask for his forgiveness.

The art and memes showing Jesus working through Trump are the most disturbing things about this cult. It shows there are large numbers of Christians who have a complete lack of understanding of their alleged faith.

Howard said...

Another aspect of the Trump confidence game the Democrats play into his wheelhouse by direct confrontation and shaming.

Howard said...

FYI, Christianity is a Middle East religion started by Semitic people like Judaism and Islam. Not exactly a Western religion like Norse Paganism.

rcocean said...

Several Catholic pro-life activists have been arrested and jailed on bogus charges. Some Republican senator brought up this up to Wray, and also questioned Stalinist Garland on it. The memo quoted has been followed up with actions by the DHS/FBI. THe DOJ has ordered DHS agents and FBI "assets" to infiltrate Catholic groups.

The NYT's analysis is remarkable for its lack of specifics, and is just the usual "handwaving" marsquarading as a "Fact check". Here's the House report:

https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/new-report-details-extent-fbis-weaponization-law-enforcement-against

Here's a link to the 1000 page report on the politicalization of the FBI:

https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/judiciary.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/hjc_staff_fbi_report.pdf

But again,the NYT/WaPo/MSM don't care about the truth. The whole point of these "fact checks" is to provide democrats and the MSM with a weapon to neutralize Trump (and the Republicans) concerns over Biden's Gestapo like actions. Expect all the talking heads, to describe how "the NYT's has looked into it, and found no problem" when someone brings it up.

The MSM acts as Bidens unpaid PR department. That's why Biden rarely talks to the press. Or give Press Conferences. He doesn't have to. The MSM is attacking trump 24/7 and cheerleading for him.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...


This is a classic of the genre that includes at least four of the tropes that tickle a Times subscriber the places that they yearn to be touched.

Always entertaining to see the NYT approach to any conservative institution that is probably not represented on the NYT staff or editorial board, in this case the mysterious evangelical voter. Here we see (1) the type of reporting known as “gorillas in the mist” where the reporter’s tone is like a documentary searching for a rare species. Then we get (2) the recitation of relevant (according to NYT) legends such as “this is how the X used to behave and what their leaders did to direct their votes. And of course (3) the standard NYT appeal to authority, in this case an amalgam of academics guessing, statistical experts who have no data and an FBI memo obscuring FBI actions, all of which Althouse highlights with skepticism. Then we have (4) the big Orange associations where they can be made, tenuously or directly, in order to give the whole article a malevolent angle that the discerning Times reader has come to expect with any mention of Trump.

Journ-0-lizm at its apex, obviously. Fact free and full of dire atmosphere.

deepelemblues said...

I don't see the informative value of such naked confirmation bias. "Evangelicals" and other strongly Christian people have been castigated for their alleged unconscionable slavishness to the Orange Antichrist for nearly a decade. Lo and behold, the Times confirms what it and its readers already believed! The ways that are worked are not mysterious in this case...

Robert Cook said...

"I wonder what Jewish readers think of the NYT downplaying western religion persecution."

Probably the same thing any intelligent person thinks: the notion Christians in the USA are being persecuted is self-serving manipulative bullshit on the part of the demagogues who assert its existence and delusion or ignorance on the part of Christians (or non-Christians) who believe it (and think it is being "down-played" by the NYT).

B. said...

“ Experts” are any professor or writer who gave a quote that the NYT approved. I’m sick of “ experts”.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

If Trump is a Christian, I make no claims one way or another, it is impossible for anyone other than God to know another's heart, he has a long way to go on his spiritual journey. I wish him well. But what I like about him, as a citizen, are his policies and the fact that he fights to get them enacted and I think that is what most conservative Christians approve of. Of course there are Christians that abhor him for his adultery and other moral failings, when confronted in that way I ask if they have ever read 2 Samuel chapters 11 and 12.

Ficta said...

Oh come on. The NYT is just making stuff up. American evangelicals have always seen themselves as a persecuted minority. They trace their lineage back to Huss and the Waldensians. They remember the Saint Bartholomew's Day massacre and Foxe's Book of Martyrs. The founding myth of America was about Puritans fleeing persecution by the English state church. Of course, the Puritans settled in and founded their own repressive state in New England, but the Evangelicals see them as opressors too. They see themselves as under siege over centuries by a succession of persecutors: Catholics, then WASPs, now Marxists. The NYT has such a deep and vast ignorance of anything that goes on west of the Hudson River.

deepelemblues said...

The Times is also very qualified and more generally legitimate to determine what "Evangelical" used to mean, and to conclude that it has now changed to something... even more sinister! Very deplorable, these people.

Steven said...

The attention that the FBI pays to "radical traditionalist catholics" is disturbing, but also hard to understand. Traditionalist catholics probably skew right-wing, but it's not really a political movement. Mostly traditionalist Catholics want latin masses, reverent music, and for the pope to stop doing weird stuff (like causing confusing about blessing gay people versus blessing gay marriages). It's hardly the stuff that's going to cause violence, unless some fistfight breaks out at a parish council meeting.

AMDG said...

Blogger Gusty Winds said...
Other than the Jesuits, and Pope "anti-Christ" Francis, Trump has the American Christian base behind him. We'll see what the black Baptists do this year. We already know where college educated white women stand. Their degree is their religion.

What liberal atheists who hate Trump and Jesus don't understand, is Trump's sins are baked in. Womanizing...being rich...whatever else, but his sins are not Bill Clinton pedophilia, child mutilation, gender confusion...etc.

Trump is fighting the Pharisees and the Sadducees who look down upon the masses and celebrate their self-proclaimed purity.

And when it comes to the weaponization of the state against Christians, seems the Romans and today's United States Federal Gov't are much the same. WI Gov Tony Evers hates Christians so much the asshole can't even call a Christmas Tree, a Christmas Tree. It's a "Science Tree".

Tony Evers hates Jesus.

1/8/24, 7:43 AM

——————

1. No, Trump does not have the American Christians base behind him. What he has behind him are people who are culturally Christian but have replaced there worship of Christ with the worship of the Fat Tub of Goo.

2. It is a little presumptuous of you to judge Clinton’s sins worse than those of Trump. What we do know is that Trump has publicly stated that he has not repented for his sins while we don’t know about Clinton.

3. Trump is doing a poor job of “fighting the Pharisees and Sadducees”. If that is your thing than there are many better options out there.

4. The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop. If an unrepentant sinner even implies that the Lord is working through him (see that blasphemous and idiotic ad, “God made Trump”) then that person is a charlatan who will lead you away from the Lord - a colleague of Wormwood perhaps?

Quite simply, Christianity and support formTrumpmare incompatible.

Sebastian said...

This is what makes progs so irritating, not just fighting the anti-Christian culture war 24/7, but denying that they do it while they're doing it.

jim said...

To plagiarise a comment on the NYT article, these are the cosplay christians.

My daughter has a mother in law like that. Works her nothing job, lounges in front of a TV watching fox and celebrity crap, and trots out the jesus stuff at random moments. I avoid her like the plague.

I challenge anyone here to spend some time with these idiots.

wild chicken said...

Huh. According to the good proggies on Reddit the entirety of Flyover is jesusland, full of dogmatic Trumptards, wreaking trauma abuse and tOxiC eNviRoNmenT, against whom any decent person is in full rebellion mode...a country i don't recognize from here in Montana.

Is it 1955 everywhere else?

AMDG said...


Blogger Ron Winkleheimer said...
If Trump is a Christian, I make no claims one way or another, it is impossible for anyone other than God to know another's heart, he has a long way to go on his spiritual journey. I wish him well. But what I like about him, as a citizen, are his policies and the fact that he fights to get them enacted and I think that is what most conservative Christians approve of. Of course there are Christians that abhor him for his adultery and other moral failings, when confronted in that way I ask if they have ever read 2 Samuel chapters 11 and 12.

1/8/24, 9:04 AM

————-

While Trump might say the right things and fights to get his policies enacted he is a spectacular failure at getting them enacted. 2020 is a complete lesson in what an easy mark he is for the Deep State. In the immortal words of Brian Wilson and Roger Christian, Donald “Ballot Box Poison” Trump is a no-go showboat.

No-go showboat no-go showboat (no-go showboat)

Well, I got a wild custom that wins every show
But it's a no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
Yeah, but everybody knows that she just don't go
She's my no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
White wall slicks with racing mags
She's just for looks, man, not for drags

'Cause it's a no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
No-go showboat no-go showboat (no-go showboat)

Well, the guys all dig it they've got no complaints
About my no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
And the chicks really flip for that metal flake paint
On my no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
It really rates fine in the custom clan
With hand-formed panels, tuck-and-roll rear pan

'Cause it's a no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
No-go showboat no-go showboat (no-go showboat)

Well, the engine compartment's filled with all chrome goodies
In my no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
Yeah, but everybody takes me, even old Ford woodies
In my no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
When it comes to speed, man, I'm just out of luck
I'm even shut down by the ice cream truck

'Cause it's a no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
No-go showboat no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
No-go showboat no-go showboat (no-go showboat)
No-go showboat no-go showboat (no-go showboat)


WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Non Christian white leftists know very little about Christianity.


"Being evangelical once suggested regular church attendance, a focus on salvation and conversion and strongly held views on specific issues such as abortion."

Seriously? do the NYT-D-ists really think Christians go to church and discuss abortion non-stop?
Laughable that a white leftist NYT-D-ist knows what goes on at any given Christian church around the nation - or the globe for that matter.

hombre said...

The NYT and its adherents know nothing of evangelical Christians. The words of a few blowhards - the right side equivalents of Al Sharpton - have little to do with reality.

John Podhoretz, a Jew, says this: "Trump is an unworthy vessel chosen by God to save us from the evil on the left." That pretty well sums up the evangelical perspective. Many of us would prefer a less boorish alternative.

The suggestion that Christians are not persecuted is nonsense. The Alliance Defending Freedom, First Liberty and others are constantly in courts defending successfully Christians whose rights have been abridged by autocratic progressives and activists who seek us out.

Jamie said...

Jesus is not going to work through one who is the poster child for the seven deadly sins and is too arrogant to ask for his forgiveness.

Why do you say that?

Look. I definitely don't think Trump is some kind of prophet, much less any sort of Messiah. But I won't try to put limits on what God can or will do. Too often in Scripture God has worked through terrible events and unrepentant people.

Do you believe that Saul's persecution of early Christians didn't swell their ranks? Yes, he eventually repented and became the (very arrogant, to the greater glory of God) Apostle to the Gentiles. But how about the soldiers who crucified Jesus? How about Pilate? Herod? Are you going to say that, though they were acting of their own free will, their actions didn't ultimately serve God's purpose? And we know nothing of whether they ever repented.

And then there's 1 Thessalonians 5:18. In all things give thanks. Because whatever's happening, it's Christ's will for you. Whatever is happening.

Trump is not my idea of the appropriate tool to God's hand. Not even my idea of a rock God might pick up to use as a hammer. He's just so... well, we know how he is. But who am I, to tell God how to work out God's will?

Jamie said...

The American relationship between religion and politics is so weird. These days, you still have to profess a belief in God, or at least not confess that you're an atheist... But if you are actually religious, publicly religious, so much of American society considers you to be untrustworthy, and often stupid.

Robert Cook's claim that Christians in the United States are not persecuted: I understand that statement to be true in the sense that politicians aren't generally allowed to be open atheists, and Christianity still is the biggest religious cohort, understood broadly. And certainly they are not persecuted in the sense of being physically harmed or imprisoned, or even denied membership in country clubs, on the basis of their faith. This isn't China. (Yet.) But, Robert, I think you're wrong that there is no discrimination in public life against religious people.

It would be interesting to take a look at how many religiously observant high level people are promoted to the C suites of their organizations (outside the South, where it can still happen in smaller organizations), or the highest levels of bureaucracy, versus those who keep their religious observance under wraps or are not observant. God-bothering is just so unseemly, don't you know. And probably a sign of an inferior intellect.

Humperdink said...

AMDG asserted: "No, Trump does not have the American Christians base behind him. What he has behind him are people who are culturally Christian but have replaced there worship of Christ with the worship of the Fat Tub of Goo."

What an absolute fool you are. Or maybe just deliberately lying. As a Christian I, and most Christians I know and I know a lot, look at choices. Biden? Pro-abort, he's out. Trump? Mostly pro-life. Not perfect for sure. As someone up thread noted, Trump has a long way to go in Christian walk. Guess what. We all do.

As an aside, our church has blacks, Puerto Ricans (a lot) and us whites. I do not know any, no not one, that supports Biden.

CPM said...

For a blog that seems to be anti-anything in the NYTs, yinz spend a lot of time obesessing on what the NYTs prints. Confirmation bias? Too much time on your hands? A simple solution, stop reading the NYT.

Your welcome.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

"The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop."

The Lord works using anyone He wishes.

Howard said...

The seduction of victimhood

DINKY DAU 45 said...

NAILED IT "Jesus is not going to work through one who is the poster child for the seven deadly sins and is too arrogant to ask for his forgiveness." trump says "why should I ask for forgiveness; I haven't done anything wrong! Today's Christians mutated.

As a recovering Catholic (over 50 years) I watched and heard of the women in the Diocese talk of abortion (some had them, street rap "did you hear about his mother) rhythm method was a talking point, most woman took birth control, priests were playing with altar boys, and $$$ was the big message from the pulpit, it has just worsened over the decades to the new model of people who have no clue about Christianity and biblical works, not catechism church rules. Today and even back then it was always, hate your next-door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace. "I'm a sinner" is an excuse. Some of the worst models for Christianity are its followers (the parts they like that is) BINGO! (Mandated when I was a kid and a parent of kids we sent to pay for Parochial school)

hombre said...

AMDG said: Blah, blah, blah. For example:

"Quite simply, Christianity and support formTrumpmare (sic.) incompatible."

Simple is right. So Christians should support the party of abortion, same sex marriage, antisemitism, mutilating gender dysphoric children, corrupt federal law enforcement, etc.?

"The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop."

Read the Bible. Think of the Babylonians, Cyrus and Solomon for starters. Which politician is without sin, Biden? Which is repentant, Pelosi?

It's pretty low, even for a Democrat troll, to pose as a Christian.


Quayle said...

AMDG writes: "4. The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop. "

That's not how I read the Bible, to say nothing of the Book of Mormon.

In Isaiah 10, the Lord says He will send Syria against Israel (the house of Israel, not the county of Israel- let's keep things straight) - He will send Syria against Israel, and Syria will think it is their own might and doing, but it is God using them.

Why would God use a declared enemy of his chosen people against his beloved chosen people. The Book of Mormon tells us why: "But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished.... (Mormon 4:5) Or put differently, when God's chosen people are wicked, he punishes them by using other wicked people. They punish each other.


AMDG writes: "Quite simply, Christianity and support for Trump are incompatible."

Sounds like something that a Jew would have said at the time of Christ: 'Support for God is incompatible with support for Rome.'

Leaving aside the issue of what 'support' means, or the differences between Rome and our constitutional republic: Christ's view seemed to be that even Rome wasn't an impediment to what He was about.

"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s".

And, "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." [Maybe Trump supporting Christians should stop "fighting" so much.]

And finally, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

When it comes time to vote, since Christ won't be on the ballot, we'll all have to cast our vote for someone else. Who that 'else' is will depend on who the options are. We're not voting for the establishment of God's kingdom - I presume He can take care of that without my vote. We're voting for the best choice of who our system gives us at each stage of the process.

You want better candidates? Run yourself.

Drago said...

LOL.

I see the LLR-democratical Brigade members lonejustice and the hapless Rich are out of the blocks early this morning with their twisted history, unattributed "quotes" and other assorted BS.

And if these transparent losers are hanging about, can LLR-democratical and Violent Homosexual Rage Rape Fantasist Chuck be far behind?

Naturally, DeSantis Online Influencer Wanna-be's like AMDG, the Steave Deace of Althouse blog, are happy to pile on with his ineffectual attacks as well!

Just like the real Steve Deace!

Who is this DeSantis Online Influencer Steave Deace you ask and what kind of a dude is he?

Take a gander at this from 2016 where the very plump, very, very soft Deace shares some TV love with his very good friends at MSNBC..

The most amazing aspect of the astonishingly incompetent DeSantis Online "influencer" crew, like AMDG, with the even more reprehensible GOPe and globalist backers of DeSantis running his campaign, is how they burned thru well over $200 million while bashing 70% of the republican base, driving down the DeSantis numbers (DeSantis is now 4th in NH and has NO chance in SC) and now forcing DeSantis' hand in supporting the dems/deep state narrative on the 2020 election.

That's a Jeb!-like performance that should be studied for years.

And DeSantis is hanging in and his rhetoric is morphing into MSNBC-speak because the ENTIRE rationale for the DeSantis campaign was to wait for his GOPe/dem lawfare allies to take Trump out so Ron could step in and pick up the pieces.

That jig is up however. That window has been closed.

I do believe Trump will still be removed in one way or the other. And DeSantis may be able to fend off the other GOPe candidates, of which he is one and was the original globalist selectee, and scoop up the nomination.

But the opportunity for DeSantis or any other GOPe candidate to convert a large chunk of Trump base voter, that chunk of low propensity voters/highly diverse and minority-driven lower middle class, working class, working poor and increasingly simply poor (see Chicago), etc, is gone.

Those voters who had not traditionally voted for republicans, at this point in time, are Trump only voters. Not GOP voters.

And they know the GOPe wants no part of them.

And those evangelical voters that support Trump, of whom I know many, laugh at the funny memes and in no way are cultists the way AMDG lies about them. Trump is just a potential political employee that they hope will fight and help hold the line against the usual suspects.

AMDG's pathetic attacks on these good people who perform amazing works around the globe in extremely dangerous places is so out of place it makes you wonder if he is a Trump plant on the DeSantis side.

hombre said...

Cook: "... the notion Christians in the USA are being persecuted is self-serving manipulative bullshit...."

Matt. 13:13 "...Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

Never mind the multitude of successful lawsuits filed every year to protect the First Amendment rights of Christians after they have been denied by autocrats. (Coach Joe Kennedy, Dr. Andrew Fox, Fire Chief Kelvin Cochran, etc.)

Oh, the futility of discussing reality with leftist deniers.

Drago said...

Case in point:

AMDG: "Quite simply, Christianity and support formTrumpmare incompatible."

LOL

More Steve Deace and Bob Vander Plaats drivel.

This is the level of desperation to which the DeSantis crew has collapsed as they pathetically cling to whatever Iowa caucus numbers they can manage to hold onto.

Of course, their cause has been helped by Haley's hilarious self-owns (about 4 major ones in just the last 2 week re: slavery & -I have black friends- (paraphrase), NH "correcting" Iowa voters, etc).

But even if DeSantis can squeak out a distant 2nd in Iowa over Haley, Ron's numbers in NH and SC are piss poor.

On the positive side, he just has to hang in there long enough for dem/GOPe Lawfare Inc to take Trump out.

Can he do it?

We wont have to wait very long to see.

PM said...

Catholics are Christian, Just not Billy Graham Christians.

Jupiter said...

It's amazing what an NYT reporter can discern from 30,000 feet. Even from a wing seat.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

By the way, calling someone a "Fat Tub of Goo" is not exactly modeling good Christian behavior.

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

Proverbs 15:1

Robert Cook said...

"Other than the Jesuits, and Pope "anti-Christ" Francis, Trump has the American Christian base behind him."

Well, Trump himself is an "anti-Christ." American Evangelicals are suckers for every anti-Christ that comes along.

Tina Trent said...

Catholics were the second largest group of people lynched in the 20th Century and the victims of the largest mass lynching recorded. They were discriminated against at some Ivy League schools as much as if not more than Jews. But if nobody writes this history, nobody knows it happened. In college, in the late 80's, my longtime boyfriend, nephew to an important congressional leader, told me he couldn't introduce me to his parents, who were visiting for a week, because I was a "papist." I have witnessed and confronted such attitudes occasionally while working in politics in the south for decades -- in both parties. Remember the concerns about JFK? That sort of thing is rare now, though.

What is happening today is different. Jews, and to a much lesser degree conservative Catholics and evangelicals are being attacked by virulent whiny atheists and dangerous Islamist and their idiot supporters here. But elsewhere, Christian civilians are slaughtered in far higher numbers than adherents to any other faith. Anyone here know the latest body count from the massacres of Christians in Africa in recent months? Since 2009, Islamists in Nigeria alone have slaughtered more than 50,000 Christians. Read about that in the news?

traditionalguy said...

Trump feels comfortable with the regular folks including believers in the Christian faith. That is not popular at all with the Theology School credentialed mainline Denomination guys who primarily believe the scriptures are mistranslated ancient mythology and offer that teaching to show off their educations. Not that there is anything wrong with a stubborn unbelief.

But the times they are a changing as the last Hebrew Prophet proclaimed circa 1962. Today the YouTube offerings are suddenly full of serious Theology fights. And nobody cared about theology fights 2 years ago. It’s like it suddenly matters again.

That alone shows that the Eschatological promises made by that Jewish miracle worker preacher are once again drawing crowds. And that message converts people. It’s about loving God and loving your neighbors but it is also a political message about a king and a coming kingdom.

What Trump is working is the very real danger of that fact that the message always cause governments to censor or ban it and to punish its followers like the Communists have been doing from Lenin to Mao.

One effect is fence sitters are being forced to chose a side. From Peterson to Rogan there is a suddenly an openness's to doubt the theories of Darwin and Freud in favor of Revelation in the scripture.

Should this anti science thought be made criminal like breathing without masks was? Trump says the whole Bill of Rights thingee is in danger of removal like the statues of George Washington.

Joe Smith said...

Catholics, especially white Catholics, are under attack in this country.

And some of it is from inside the church...

Humperdink said...

Robert Cook said: "Well, Trump himself is an "anti-Christ." American Evangelicals are suckers for every anti-Christ that comes along."

Well Mr. Cook it is pretty clear dipping your toe into the biblical waters proves you to absolutely ignorant as is who will be the anti-Christ. And there is only one.

You need to get out more. Maybe hit ... er ..... visit an Evangelical church. Trust me they won't assault you.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Robert Cook - since you are an atheist - define why and what makes you say Trump as an "anti-Christ".


WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Only democrats are allowed to be fake Christians.

Drago said...

Ron Winkleheimer: "By the way, calling someone a "Fat Tub of Goo" is not exactly modeling good Christian behavior."

Steve Deace is the poster boy for Fat Tub of Goo and he's only 50!

Jamie said...

American Evangelicals are suckers for every anti-Christ that comes along.

American atheists, even moreso.

Again, I am not myself an evangelical - I'm Episcopalian, a member of God's Frozen People. But I'm endlessly entertained, in an irritated kind of way, by the common conviction of atheists that they're so rational compared to everyone else - and at the same time that they are motivated so purely by moral systems of their own design, focused on "human thriving" - which they define, according solely to their own lights.

No one has ever convincingly explained to me how atheism is functionally different from... let's say solipsism, rather than the uncharitable "narcissism" that first sprang to mind.

AMDG said...

Blogger Humperdink said...
AMDG asserted: "No, Trump does not have the American Christians base behind him. What he has behind him are people who are culturally Christian but have replaced there worship of Christ with the worship of the Fat Tub of Goo."

What an absolute fool you are. Or maybe just deliberately lying. As a Christian I, and most Christians I know and I know a lot, look at choices. Biden? Pro-abort, he's out. Trump? Mostly pro-life. Not perfect for sure. As someone up thread noted, Trump has a long way to go in Christian walk. Guess what. We all do.

As an aside, our church has blacks, Puerto Ricans (a lot) and us whites. I do not know any, no not one, that supports Biden.

1/8/24, 10:07 AM

————-

Blogger Humperdink said...
AMDG asserted: "No, Trump does not have the American Christians base behind him. What he has behind him are people who are culturally Christian but have replaced there worship of Christ with the worship of the Fat Tub of Goo."

What an absolute fool you are. Or maybe just deliberately lying. As a Christian I, and most Christians I know and I know a lot, look at choices. Biden? Pro-abort, he's out. Trump? Mostly pro-life. Not perfect for sure. As someone up thread noted, Trump has a long way to go in Christian walk. Guess what. We all do.

As an aside, our church has blacks, Puerto Ricans (a lot) and us whites. I do not know any, no not one, that supports Biden.

1/8/24, 10:07 AM

——————

What a fool you are. There are better choices than Trump, especially if you claim to be Christian.

hombre said...

Ever notice how even the facade of what passes for reason with Cook gives way in the face of his distaste for Christians?

AMDG said...

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer said...
"The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop."

The Lord works using anyone He wishes.

1/8/24, 10:19 AM

———————

Please cite one case of the Lord working through an unrepentant sinner. There is not one.

Jesus must work through sinners because There are only two people who were born and lived without sin.



AMDG said...

Blogger hombre said...
AMDG said: Blah, blah, blah. For example:

"Quite simply, Christianity and support formTrumpmare (sic.) incompatible."

Simple is right. So Christians should support the party of abortion, same sex marriage, antisemitism, mutilating gender dysphoric children, corrupt federal law enforcement, etc.?

"The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop."

Read the Bible. Think of the Babylonians, Cyrus and Solomon for starters. Which politician is without sin, Biden? Which is repentant, Pelosi?

It's pretty low, even for a Democrat troll, to pose as a Christian.



1/8/24, 10:29 AM

———————

1. I am not a Democrat. I am a true Conservative.

2. For Republicans there are options that are better than Trump.

3. We are all sinners. The problem with Trump is that he embraces his sinfulness and is proud to let it define him.

If you are a Trump supporter think of all the things you can no longer do because of Donald “Wormwood” Trump without being a total hypocrite.

1. You cannot hold politicians to account for lying.

2. You cannot hold politicians, or even people like Hunter Biden, to account because of their personal behavior. In essence you have all justified Teddy Kennedy’s entire political career.

3. You cannot hold a politician to account for violating their oath of office. Trump is cool with suspending the Constitution because of his wounded ego. How can you have any issue with Biden spending money without Congressional aurpthorization?

hombre said...

Ever notice how even the facade of what passes for reason with Cook gives way in the face of his distaste for Christians?

Skeptical Voter said...

Yeah a now "retracted FBI memo" targeting Christians. That's the ticket--a sort of Emily Litella "never mind".

You can no more retract an embarassing memo than you can retrieve an inadvertent "toot" in church. Once it's out, it's out.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

"While Trump might say the right things and fights to get his policies enacted he is a spectacular failure at getting them enacted."

I'm starting to think you really are a paid shill.

3 conservative Supreme Court Justices, leading the end of abortion as a "constitutional right"
Energy independence, "Drill Baby, Drill"
Control of the southern border and working on building a wall
The Joshua Accords
Moved the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem

Are five important ones that come immediately to mind, all while facing opposition from Democrats, GOPe, and the deep state

I will agree that his response to the Covid nonsense was less than ideal, but sometimes you have to take the bad with the good.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

"There are better choices than Trump"

Then make the case for them instead of trying to shame Christians using teachings that are clearly contrary to the scriptures.

"Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

2 Timothy 2:23-26

AMDG said...

Blogger Quayle said...
AMDG writes: "4. The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop. "

That's not how I read the Bible, to say nothing of the Book of Mormon.

In Isaiah 10, the Lord says He will send Syria against Israel (the house of Israel, not the county of Israel- let's keep things straight) - He will send Syria against Israel, and Syria will think it is their own might and doing, but it is God using them.

Why would God use a declared enemy of his chosen people against his beloved chosen people. The Book of Mormon tells us why: "But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished.... (Mormon 4:5) Or put differently, when God's chosen people are wicked, he punishes them by using other wicked people. They punish each other.


AMDG writes: "Quite simply, Christianity and support for Trump are incompatible."

Sounds like something that a Jew would have said at the time of Christ: 'Support for God is incompatible with support for Rome.'

Leaving aside the issue of what 'support' means, or the differences between Rome and our constitutional republic: Christ's view seemed to be that even Rome wasn't an impediment to what He was about.

"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s".

And, "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." [Maybe Trump supporting Christians should stop "fighting" so much.]

And finally, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

When it comes time to vote, since Christ won't be on the ballot, we'll all have to cast our vote for someone else. Who that 'else' is will depend on who the options are. We're not voting for the establishment of God's kingdom - I presume He can take care of that without my vote. We're voting for the best choice of who our system gives us at each stage of the process.

You want better candidates? Run yourself.

1/8/24, 10:35 AM

——————————

From a Christian perspective Donald “Wormwood” Trump is not the best choice for Republicans.

The concept of “render unto Caesar” does not absolve the Christian for making choices that can drive a wedge between the Christian and God.

We all taught to love the sinner but hate the sin. The logic given by Trump supporters (Clinton is worse, etc.) is flawed. By accepting his unrepentant sinfulness they are embracing his sins. You see this in the near deification of Trump in the MAGA world. I only point to the “God Made Trump” video as an example.

Howard said...

Via Wikipedia. By this definition, every politician is the anti Christ. Trump certainly qualifies.

Fulton J. Sheen, a Catholic bishop, wrote in 1951:[115][116]

The Antichrist will not be so called; otherwise he would have no followers... he will come disguised as the Great Humanitarian; he will talk peace, prosperity and plenty not as means to lead us to God, but as ends in themselves... He will tempt Christians with the same three temptations with which he tempted Christ... He will have one great secret which he will tell to no one: he will not believe in God. Because his religion will be brotherhood without the fatherhood of God, he will deceive even the elect. He will set up a counterchurch... It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ.

AMDG said...


Blogger Drago said...
Case in point:

AMDG: "Quite simply, Christianity and support formTrumpmare incompatible."

LOL

More Steve Deace and Bob Vander Plaats drivel.

This is the level of desperation to which the DeSantis crew has collapsed as they pathetically cling to whatever Iowa caucus numbers they can manage to hold onto.

Of course, their cause has been helped by Haley's hilarious self-owns (about 4 major ones in just the last 2 week re: slavery & -I have black friends- (paraphrase), NH "correcting" Iowa voters, etc).

But even if DeSantis can squeak out a distant 2nd in Iowa over Haley, Ron's numbers in NH and SC are piss poor.

On the positive side, he just has to hang in there long enough for dem/GOPe Lawfare Inc to take Trump out.

Can he do it?

We wont have to wait very long to see.

1/8/24, 11:00 AM

——————————
And the Trump cultist appears.

Drago has two modes of post:

1. Everyone but Trump is a uniparty RINO

2. Trump is ahead in the polls

Hey Drago!

Why don’t you do this. Tell me how any sentient human being can consider Trump after he got rolled by the Deep State in 2020. Please indicate in what way he is competent. Defend his various statements last weekend (“magnets, the civil war) and tell me his brain isn’t well on its way down Tapioca Road behind Biden.

Then discuss the topic. I have posited that being a practicing Christian and a Trump supporter are incompatible. Respond to that instead of dissolving into your tRump Swap response of “RINO”, uniparty, polls, etc.

AMDG said...

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer said...
By the way, calling someone a "Fat Tub of Goo" is not exactly modeling good Christian behavior.

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

Proverbs 15:1

1/8/24, 11:09 AM

———————

I find it amusing when tRump Swabs get offended when their Lord and Savior is given an impolitic nickname. But to sooth your delicate feeling feelings I will no longer refer to him as “The Fat Tub of Goo”. From here on out it will either be “Ballot Box Poison” or “Wormwood”.

Gusty Winds said...

AMDG said...
...especially if you claim to be Christian.

This is how you know somebody isn't a Christian, or holds disdain for Christians. I too get sick of holier than thou Christians. But the fundamental basis for Christianity is understanding that you too are fundamentally flawed, and a sinner.

We can all play tit for tat political Christianity. How can a liberal support abortion up until the moment of birth and claim to "be a Christian"? How can you let exploited people die at the open Southern Border for the import of Democrat votes and cheap labor? How can you parade naked on a bike in front of children (hmmmm Madison???)

Voting for Trump or voting against Trump has nothing to do with being a Christian. Jesus said "give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar" Our political battles simply revolve around what actually belongs to Cesar.

Such a rich irony how non-Christian liberals try to thrust their delusion upon believers.

Gusty Winds said...

AMDG said...
Quite simply, Christianity and support formTrumpmare incompatible.

Well then so are America's public schools run by Jesus hating liberals. I would argue our liberal dominated public education system does whatever they can to hinder children from coming to Jesus or learning about him. What's your definition of compatible with Christianity?

Matthew 19 versus 13&14:
13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

This is ridiculous. We can do this stupid shit all day long. "I am rubber, you're glue; whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you"

Oligonicella said...

Robert Cook:
Probably the same thing any intelligent person thinks: the notion Christians in the USA are being persecuted is self-serving manipulative bullshit on the part of the demagogues who assert its existence and delusion or ignorance on the part of Christians (or non-Christians) who believe it (and think it is being "down-played" by the NYT).

Cook, I'm as atheist as they come and I see the persecution. No, it's not "thrown to the lions' but it's pervasive.

That part I bolded was just you trying to convince people about yourself.

Gusty Winds said...

AMDG said...
The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop.

How do you know who has repented and who has not? That's mid reading. Delusional.

You also claimed Trump has said he has never asked for forgiveness.

Here's what Trump actually said about asking for forgiveness in 2015. From CNN:

“I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don’t think so,” he said. “I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don’t bring God into that picture. I don’t.”

Trump said that while he hasn’t asked God for forgiveness, he does participate in Holy Communion.

“When I drink my little wine – which is about the only wine I drink – and have my little cracker, I guess that is a form of asking for forgiveness, and I do that as often as possible because I feel cleansed,” he said. “I think in terms of ‘let’s go on and let’s make it right.’”

We all repent in different forms. Most repent and make no correction. Like me with smoking and drinking shitloads of Miller Lite.

Oligonicella said...

AMDG:
4. The Lord will not work through an unrepentant sinner, full stop.

I refer you to commandment #3. You broke it. Unless of course, you believe yourself to be a prophet appointed to speak for God. To which I reply "Bwahahahaha!"

Gusty Winds said...

Here is the crux of this entire comment thread:

"All I know is my Jesus is better that your Jesus and Jesus likes people like me better than people like you"

The only thing I know for sure is Jesus thinks I'm really funny.

Oligonicella said...

Trump himself is an "anti-Christ." American Evangelicals are suckers for every anti-Christ that comes along.

Thus spake Robert the Pious.

Robert Cook said...

"Well Mr. Cook it is pretty clear dipping your toe into the biblical waters proves you to absolutely ignorant as is who will be the anti-Christ. And there is only one."

John explains otherwise. Anti-Christs are those who teach false doctrine, and they have always been plentiful. They currently fill up the airwaves with their mendacious bilking of "offerings" from the credulous, the desperate, and the lonely at home watching on tv.

"You need to get out more. Maybe hit ... er ..... visit an Evangelical church. Trust me they won't assault you."

I have been to a handful of evangelical church services, while I was raised in the Episcopal Church, and I attended with my family from childhood until I moved away to attend college. I was an usher at our church and my father was a lay reader.

Moreover, I have read the New Testament in full, (decades ago, where it was the sole textbook for a college class I took about the New Testament). Lest you think the class was a ploy by a godless leftie to destroy his students' belief and impose his evil doctrine, he was nothing of the sort. The class consisted of us simply reading the New Testament, beginning to end, over the course of the term and then discussing in each class what we thought that week's readings meant. The teacher never corrected us or tried to impose a singular conception on us. He merely asked us questions to lead us to our own further personal consideration. The students did most of the talking, and he did the least. (He was a philosophy teacher, as well, and he taught his philosophy classes in the same manner.)

I will disclose (if it isn't obvious) that I decades ago let go of whatever tenuous belief I had ever had in a god or a heaven or any sort of supernatural realm and being who created the world and all things upon it.

All the above said, I will repeat: Evangelical Christians are suckers for anti-Christs...all it takes is someone affecting the appropriate manner (whether sober or manic) and selectively employing passages from the Bible to sucker the true believers. Their ignorance of the Bible--and many are--and their hunger for a savior that makes them so easy to seduce. As an appropriate example, many of them really see Trump as a godly man, and yet he is among the most transparent of lying chiselers, not even trying to be convincing...and yet still he convinces his flock! It's a miracle, I tell ya! (A SATANIC one!)

Drago said...

AMDG: "I find it amusing when tRump Swabs get offended when their Lord and Savior is given an impolitic nickname"

Gee, its a mystery why the DeSantis campaign is failing so terribly.

A real mystery....

Oligonicella said...

traditionalguy:
From Peterson to Rogan there is a suddenly an openness's to doubt the theories of Darwin and Freud in favor of Revelation in the scripture.

Rogan I'll believe, he smokes so much, at times he's no better than a zombie. At times the living definition of letting yer brain dribble out yer ear. He'll stare open mouthed and credulous of stories of ancient gone-with-no-trace alien civilizations on Earth.

For Peterson, I've watched many of his discussions and he's convincing himself of the existence of God (near death will have that effect at times). I don't recall any time he's lobbied that evolution is fake.

As for 'Revelation', why capitalize that word?

revelation noun (American Heritage)

1. The act of revealing or disclosing.
2. Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized.
3. A sudden insight or idea.

Nothing about the word denotes high status.

I think what Peterson is doing is concluding that revelation is as good as what the psychiatric profession has done and I can't find fault with that idea.

Robert Cook said...

"No one has ever convincingly explained to me how atheism is functionally different from... let's say solipsism....

How is atheism functionally similar to solipsism? And if that is so, is that a bad thing? I guess that depends on how one defines solipsism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a spiritual realm or of a creator god, etc.

Oligonicella said...

Jamie:
No one has ever convincingly explained to me how atheism is functionally different from... let's say solipsism, rather than the uncharitable "narcissism" that first sprang to mind.

Following from Webster's Unabridged:

atheist noun
1) a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

solipsism noun (solipsist as an also)
1) Philosthe theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist.
2) extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one's feelings, desires, etc.

Ignoring your attempt at conflation, it's atheist(1)/solipsist(1).


Atheists such as myself have no problem believing you exist as a person real and whole, outside myself. I accept as evidence of that your postings here and believe and understand that I am responding to that separate entity and not an hallucination.

That uncharitableness you mention is exactly that, as narcissism pertains to personality traits and not philosophical pov on theism.

Dagwood said...

AMDG is woefully blind to the inconvenient little truth that Trump has become God to him. True, a god he despises. But he's become fixated on Trump in much the way that followers of Christ are urged to fix their eyes upon Jesus.

And to think he's not getting a red cent for letting mean old Donald live rent-free up in his head or in his sanctimonious heart. Tsk-tsk.

Dagwood said...

Robert Cook said @ 1:32 pm....

The Episcopal Church? That's rich.

Among so-called mainline denominations they're on record for being among the worst panderers to false Christianity and warping God's Word.

Michael K said...

As an appropriate example, many of them really see Trump as a godly man, and yet he is among the most transparent of lying chiselers, not even trying to be convincing...and yet still he convinces his flock! It's a miracle, I tell ya! (A SATANIC one!)

Cook pretends that his politics are religion. "Lying chiselers" for example. I read all these lefties talking about Trump's lies. Then someone asks, "which lie?" Silence. The judge in that farce of a NY trial has announced his verdict before the trial like the Red Queen. "Verdict first ! trial after."

Gusty Winds said...

Robert Cook said...
All the above said, I will repeat: Evangelical Christians are suckers for anti-Christs...

Well the Evangelicals aren't big fans for Pope Francis so there's that. Either are a lot of "conservative Catholics". Not big fans of secular false prophets either. You know, the doomsday predictors like John Kerrys and Al Gores.

And yes, admittedly the Apocalyptic doomsday predictors are equally full of shit.

I'm not placing myself above anyone here. I'm a professional sinner. It's a great talent of mine. So is chugging Miller Lite.

We don't see Trump as a "Godly Man" as Cook falsely assumes. Trump is seen as flawed like everyone else. That's where Christian haters like Cook are wrong.

We just see Trump as the only person willing to take on a lot of people we think are shitheads.

traditionalguy said...

Obviously Trump haters see a different man than Trump loyalists see.

Instead of a nice guy who helps everyone, the haters see a show off who fights for us but dares to takes credit for his successes. Christians see the warrior in Trump ad exactly what a President has to be in today’s world.

We wish Trump was a gentle sweet guy too, but that’s not what his job requires. He has been a bad sinner at times, but so was the self promoting and flawed son of Jessie that fought his way into being King of the Jews. And his Psalms tell the story ( See, Ps30).

As I recall the God who created various covenants with men finally chose that man for the Messianic Covenants. You know, the Covenant that turned out to give the world the the King of Kings.

Mason G said...

"Being evangelical once suggested regular church attendance, a focus on salvation and conversion and strongly held views on specific issues such as abortion."

Being progressive once suggested mostly peaceful (heh) protesting, a focus on race and intersectionality and strongly held views on specific issues such as abortion.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

@AMDG

I'm not offended, just a gentle reminder from believer to another.

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Matthew 5:22

Robert Cook said...

"Cook pretends that his politics are religion."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

lonejustice said...

Humperdink said...

@lonejustice. While your unattributed quotes are interesting, as a hard core evangelical I'd like to remind you that Trump appointed three, count 'em three, Supreme Court justices the led to Roe v. Wade being overturned.
----------
The quotes are attributed, if you have ever heard of Google. Jesus told the prostitute to "Go and sin no more." Trump said to the prostitute Stormy Daniels, "Give me a blow job." That's a pretty big difference.

AMDG said...

Blogger traditionalguy said...
Obviously Trump haters see a different man than Trump loyalists see.

Instead of a nice guy who helps everyone, the haters see a show off who fights for us but dares to takes credit for his successes. Christians see the warrior in Trump ad exactly what a President has to be in today’s world.

We wish Trump was a gentle sweet guy too, but that’s not what his job requires. He has been a bad sinner at times, but so was the self promoting and flawed son of Jessie that fought his way into being King of the Jews. And his Psalms tell the story ( See, Ps30).

As I recall the God who created various covenants with men finally chose that man for the Messianic Covenants. You know, the Covenant that turned out to give the world the the King of Kings.

1/8/24, 3:38 PM

———————-

What successes? Trump was rolled over by the Deep State. He could have pardoned J6 protesters before he left office but he didn’t. What he did do is scam supporters out of $250M to pay for his lawyers and get his plane airworthy. That money would have helped a lot of J6 (who are in their predicament because of him) protesters with attorneys, but, he doesn’t care about them.

It would be one thing if his buffoonery accomplished anything but it didn’t. In 2020 he was revealed a weak leader who is clueless in crisis. His caving to the Deep State and behavior after the election caused harm to the country that will take years to correct.

All I see is a buffoon who is all talk. I see that his only true accomplishment is destroying the lives of people who enter his orbit.p whether they be the well of (Giuliani, Lindell, Powell, etc,) and the average person (hundreds of average people who are in jail and destroyed because of him).

Again, what exactly has he accomplished. The party he leads has taken a huge step backwards since he was first nominated. He failed to successfully tackle any of the issues he has campaigned on. His enemies are more emboldened then ever because he is unable to take them in with any success. His only weapon is his bluster and that has become a pathetic joke.

Again - what exactly does he bring to the table?

readering said...

We've come a long way from Protestants worrying about the RC POTUS taking orders from the Pope.

readering said...

We've come a long way from Protestants worrying about the RC POTUS taking orders from the Pope.

Jim at said...

I challenge anyone here to spend some time with these idiots.

I'd rather spend time with her than some sanctimonious, leftist asshole who spends every waking moment looking down his nose at other people.

Humperdink said...

AMDG responded to me: "What a fool you are. There are better choices than Trump, especially if you claim to be Christian."

None that would beat Biden, aka the baby killer who endorses the slaughter up through and including the barbaric 4th trimester.

hombre said...

AMDG said: "I am not a Democrat I am a true conservative."

A lefty logic conservative? Consider: "If you are a Trump supporter think of all the things you can no longer do because of Donald “Wormwood” Trump without being a total hypocrite. 1.... 2.... 3.....

First, "hypocrite" doesn't mean what you think it means. Voting for Trump does not require emulating him or even approving of his seamier behavior.

Second, a vote for Trump does not disqualify us from holding politicians to account for their behavior when our ONLY choice is a lesser of evils.

Finally, when exactly did Trump approve of suspending the Constitution because of "his wounded ego" and what does it have to do with Biden's unauthorized spending.

Job said...

The thing that strikes me about this long and varied conversation is that the clearly left-of-center commenters seem to be mentally ill and quite nasty.

Job said...

The thing that strikes me about this long and varied conversation is that the clearly left-of-center commenters seem to be mentally ill and quite nasty.

R.C. said...

It's important to remember:

The New York Times does not employ a single person in a news-delivery or news-editing capacity that has any significant knowledge of any form of Christianity, or friendly experience with any persons who knowledgeably and faithfully practice it.

As a whole, the employees of the NYT have no interest in understanding Christianity or Christians, or knowing anyone who has.

Furthermore, if by reporting something accurately about Christianity, they might accidentally find themselves making Christianity seem even slightly palatable to their readers, they would feel a compulsion to "make up for it" by balancing it with some vivid criticism or contemptuous insult, so as to vividly reassure those around them of their tribal bona fides.

And that's just the humans. Don't forget the AIs.

The article was almost certainly pasted together from AIs responding to prompts. Presuming the quotes from JoAnn Sweeting, Jason Bruner, and Frank Ravitch to be testimony from real human persons and not probabilistic hallucinations by an AI, there's no reason to suspect that these persons were contacted by a Times reporter looking for information to be included in this article. That's rare.

On the contrary, we should suppose that these quotes, or something resembling them, pre-existed the article on the Internet, and the AI cited or tweaked them, as needed, to make the flow of the article match common patterns from its database. It is almost better if the names are false: A real JoAnn Sweeting can complain of being misquoted; but a hallucinatory one cannot.

We need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that there are such things as "news organizations" in the world today. There are not.

What we have is competing monetized propaganda systems, customized to tell a market-segment what it wants to hear, in order to drive ad revenue.

The NYT's market-segment doesn't wish to hear anything about Christians that doesn't confirm their existing biases, so the AIs at NYT don't say anything that fails to confirm their existing biases. Instead, the AIs spit out confirming narratives with just enough "twist" to maintain interest.

Sure, an editor could try hiring a researching reporter...but who's got the budget for that? Sure, they could risk saying things that the AI didn't already vet for reader-appeal, but who dares risk a quarter of falling "viewer engagement?" You don't get promoted by underperforming your target numbers.

That's how this works, now.

Jamie said...

I think I owe our resident atheists an apology for assuming they're part of the New Atheist thing. Those guys nettle me mightily with their "human thriving" and their sanctimony.

But to clarify my statement that I've yet to be convinced that atheism (by which I meant New Atheism, and I should have said so) isn't functionally the same as solipsism, I will emphasize the word "functionally."

Definitionally they're obviously different. But functionally, ISTM that the New Atheists base their behavior, or at least their moral code, on the assumption that human thriving is the (or in some cases, such as the environment, "a") sort of prime directive, and make assumptions about what constitutes human thriving based on what they themselves believe. Put two New Atheists on a desert island with one coconut, and what constitutes human thriving then? Does it become an argument over whose life is more worth preserving? Or does it just become a fight to the death? No sense in sharing that one little coconut, and there's no moral imperative or authority that requires it... Either way, each participant is fully empowered by her belief system to act as if no one but she is a real person. Functionally, solipsist.

Two Christians on that same island might still fight to the death, but they'd know they were sinning, according to their belief system.

I know a decent number of atheists; most are perfectly nice people, and, I believe, also good people, for their own reasons. But I've also known two, specifically, who used their atheism - their recourse to no one but themselves - to justify every bad decision they ever made and every bad thing they ever did (at least, while I knew them). I'd rather be around hypocritical sinners than people like those two; a truly hypocritical sinner is a living lesson to all around her, and the usual type of hypocritical sinner, the occasional or periodic one, also known as just about everyone who believes in a God and/or sin, at least tries sometimes.

Kirk Parker said...

Dagwood @ 2:42 PM,

You should be more precise; the rot you rightly decry is a feature of the Anglican/Episcopal Church in the West.

Africa is an entirely different story. There was that diocese (?) in West Africa that a number of US churches affiliated with, having lost confidence in the Archbishop of Canterbury as well as the US Episcopal leadership.

And I am personally acquainted with the Archbishop of the Episcopal Church of South Sudan and a couple other bishops in that church; these men are really at the forefront of pushing back against modernism in theology and practice in the worldwide Anglican community. In overall theological terms they would fit right in with you average small-c conservative Baptist or PCA congregation.

Jeff Cox said...

“Please cite one case of the Lord working through an unrepentant sinner. There is not one.”

Pharaoh.

Tina Trent said...

Years ago, Eric Erickson said that evangelism had become more like a socio-economic identity for many, though by no means all, practitioners. He's right.

So what does this mean? A lot to things, but mainly that some evangelicals are more religious than others -- hardly earth shattering news. And given the current behavior of Democrat "Christians," so what? Note the authors don't find that a discussion of interest. Talk about double standards. No wonder the article hoisted itself on the petard of its own logical incoherence.

Rusty said...

""No one has ever convincingly explained to me how atheism is functionally different from... let's say solipsism...."
It's not. They are both based in the absolute faith that the infinite does not exist.

Robert Cook said...

"Among so-called mainline denominations they're on record for being among the worst panderers to false Christianity and warping God's Word."

I'm just curious: how has the Episcopal Church warped God's word?

Narr said...

Atheism and solipsism "are both based in the absolute faith that the infinite does not exist."

Really?