[A] New York Times investigation found that Israel’s military was undermanned, out of position and so poorly organized that soldiers communicated in impromptu WhatsApp groups and relied on social media posts for targeting information. Commandos rushed into battle armed only for brief combat. Helicopter pilots were ordered to look to news reports and Telegram channels to choose targets.
And perhaps most damning: The Israel Defense Forces did not even have a plan to respond to a large-scale Hamas attack on Israeli soil, according to current and former soldiers and officers. If such a plan existed on a shelf somewhere, the soldiers said, no one had trained on it and nobody followed it. The soldiers that day made it up as they went along....
December 30, 2023
"A Times investigation found that troops were disorganized, out of position and relied on social media to choose targets. Behind the failure: Israel had no battle plan for a massive Hamas invasion."
"Where Was the Israeli Military?" (NYT).
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208 comments:
1 – 200 of 208 Newer› Newest»Sounds like they really fucked up, but given the source, they will report whatever is bad for Netenyahu.
If Netenyahu is responsible and it is as bad as they say, he needs to go.
In the mean time, keep killing Palestinian terrorists...
And what would happen if terrorist in the USA, that came across the Southern Border, on command from a foreign country, all rose up and attacked malls, schools, churches, police stations, the power grid, ETC... ALL SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!!
What would be our 'response'???
Can't happen?? I bet it can and just might.
FJB!
Ultra right wing Likud ruling Israel for the 20+ years. I can't wait to see how this military failure is progressives fault.
Color me unsurprised. For all the ink spilled about the Israeli armed forces and how amazing they are, at the end of the day they were caught with their pants down. Happens more often than people think. What speaks volumes is how fast they regrouped, skulled out a strategy and now tactical units are hunting down those Hama scum. Now, if the logistics improve and the political will of the Israeli government holds on, Hamas may be eliminated completely.
A NYT investigation?
Ok now do the US armed forces withdraw from Afghanistan…
Or US Armed forces general readiness under it’s Woke Admin….
don't blame Hamas for the terror and brutality. nah.
Ignore all of that.
Isn't having a force that can improvise on the fly based on fast-evolving intel optimal?
ot:
The truth about the open border. It’s a planned operation.
NYT. No credibility.
'Ultra right wing Likud...'
Is that like the 'Ultra MAGA' that the president keeps drooling on about?
Dumb fuck.
Terrorists infiltrate using known weaknesses. ...and?
Yo leftist homosexual pro-Hamasians - be sure to blame the women for wearing short skirts. they deserved to have their bodies tortured and mutilated - their breasts cut off - their backs stabbed while being raped by Hamas sub-human demons.
corrupt a-hole left now saying that Oct 7th didn't happen.
A pox on Hamas and pro-Hamas scumbags. terrorist sympathizing a-holes.
So from general halevi on down they organized a rebellion against netanyahu seeing as the lawfare must continue
My Gell-Mann amnesia seems to be in full remission. This is the same newspaper that has banned op-eds from Republicans and publishes them from Hamas mayors. Or are we also supposed to believe a person can become a mayor of Gaza and not be part of Hamas?
The times would know a clue if it was given to them
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/our-false-partners
Israel has controlled all movement into and out of the Gaza strip since 1967. Dubai, Singapore, and every other prosperous city-state in existence has developed economically via free trade with the outside world. This is not possible when a foreign military occupation cuts off sea and air access. Please give us an example of one country or territory which has successfully developed its economy while under a half-century long sea and air blockade.
Like all narcissists, Bibi takes credit for all successes and blames others for his failures. Sounds just like Trump. Netanyahu's cynicism, divisiveness and inability to take responsibility for his actions were evident for years, yet he won free and fair elections, time and again. As the old saying goes, people cannot be saved from themselves. There is a lesson here for America, if it chooses to heed it.
Again, I hate to quibble over headlines. But there was no "massive invasion". THere was a raid by maybe a thousand Hamas fighters, armed with AK-47s, some homemade rockets, and paragliders.
No tanks or AFVs, no artillery, no warplanes. No heavy mortars. No heavy MGs.
Most of the people killed were IDF soldiers and armed "Settlers". About 1400 were killed. Right now, over 20,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed by the IDF. So we're talking about a 15-1 kill ratio. When you talk about kids its 4000 palestinians children to about 100 Israelis. Or 40-1.
I'm not really concerned why the IDF had a failure of intelligence. I'm more concerned about stopping the fighting and murder of Palestinians thats going on RIGHT NOW. There's a similarity between the way the MSM reports this and the Ukraine conflict. In both cases, they act like the conflict started when the "Bad guys" for "No reason at all" attacked the innocent victims (Ukraine, Israel). In both, cases this is completely incorrect. But to tell the story in an adult, intelligent fashion, is impossible for our media elite.
Imagine, having a national leader like Netanyahu -- reliant on a nearly-nonexistent coalition of militant rightwing nutjobs, and overwhelmed by personal criminal allegations -- and what that could do to a nation's security.
Shades of Pearl Harbor
See van Creveld's comments on Israeli 'konseptsia.'
And don't say it can't happen here.
Where was the IDF on 10-07-2023?
Same place the USN was on 12-07-1941, downtown Complacentville.
Imagine the reaction if the IDF had detailed plans to take out Hamas and routinely trained on it.
In the days and weeks following October 7th the meme spread over the Internet that Israel’s intelligence services were so busy trying to figure out a way to oust Netanyahu to notice that Hamas had built a training site for assaults on the kibbutzim, and in fact was training fighters at that site. In short there were agencies that were responsible for monitoring the activities of Hamas (and Hezbollah and the Houthis and a bunch of other threats to the citizens of Israel) regardless of who is Prime Minister. And they failed. There are generals in the IDF whose job it is to formulate plans in response to threats. The number of threats they can plan for iand train their troops to respond to is, necessarily, finite. If the intelligence services did not identify the threat of a large scale assault by Hamas, how was the IDF to know to prepare for it?
The intelligence services spending more time trying to undercut their country’s leader than doing the job they were chartered to do does remind me of the US “three letter agencies” when Trump was President.
I would never rely on the times as a source
https://twitter.com/LeeSmithDC/status/1741137459709137271
According to my confidential source, it can happen here very easily. That is, until the invaders get to Deplorable Land.
'Shades of Pearl Harbor'
One could make the argument...
Armchair generals critique the IDF. Unexpectedly!
As the Emperor wisely said, he who defends everywhere defends nowhere, which is a brief summary of the dreary subject of logistics and the initiative of the attacker.
It does my heart good the read the military expertise of General Rich and Field Marshal Chuck. Who could ask for better advice, though I wonder why they didn’t contract at least one of those thousands of anti-Trump Labor voters about the obvious danger they clearly anticipated, as backward-looking general officers always be can be relied on do?
The seed of this was the oslo delusion engaged in beilin and co endorsed by rabin furthered by barak and sharon
So the Hamas atrocities were Israel's fault because they should have expected it? I would agree that Israel seems to have failed terribly to prepare to defend itself, but the "she was asking for it" defense of Hamas is unseemly at best.
They do seem to be taking positive steps to prevent a recurrence.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/12/cheering-for-mass-murder.php
Well they had fought a short skirmish two years before
https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1741125639179018469
The Israel Defense Forces did not even have a plan to respond to a large-scale Hamas attack on Israeli soil...
So would the New York Times please share it's plan for responding to a large-scale Hamas attack?
[Crickets]
Thought so!
I have no reason to believe any of this is true.
Does Israel have military stationed at the entire length of border? What would that even look like?
The US has over 10,000 illegals from dozen of nations in both hemispheres, crossing our boarder every single day. Every day. If just 5% of those mean the US ill, it would be much worse than Oct 7th. When is happens, it will be because Trump left the steel to build the wall to rust on the southern boarder.
rcocean said...
"I'm not really concerned why the IDF had a failure of intelligence. I'm more concerned about stopping the fighting and murder of Palestinians thats going on RIGHT NOW. There's a similarity between the way the MSM reports this and the Ukraine conflict. In both cases, they act like the conflict started when the "Bad guys" for "No reason at all" attacked the innocent victims (Ukraine, Israel). In both, cases this is completely incorrect. But to tell the story in an adult, intelligent fashion, is impossible for our media elite"
I don't give a shit for GAZA or 'Palestinians'. It was a murderous attack... and GAZA will be destroyed... Just like Japan was destroyed in WW2.
War is war.. no ceasefire.. UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER is the only deal Israel will now accept.
And now they are winning.
The IDF LEARNS from mistakes.
Read "From Here to Eternity" if you want an idea of US military readiness in 1941.
“Where was the IDF on 10-07-2023?”
Protecting Bibi’s ever expanding settler community.
Want to bet Biden has read this NYT article while sunning in St Croix, and has ordered a comprehensive review of our on the shelf military contingency plans? I bet he has.
This particular invasion scenario was likely not wargamed by any professional military. It likely was by some teenage wargamers, but...
it was purely a terrorist attack, with no discernible military objective. So why would a military wargame it?
Really, any type of action from an attack like that would have to be ad hoc based on info obtained in real time from unconventional sources. And the IDF did as well as cold be expected under the circumstances. Some reserve settler units did much better then expected. No reports of any that panicked and ran away or avoided action.
The aftermath? The Israeli response? Hamas had wargamed that, and got it totally wrong. They completely underestimated the anger they would unleash. Oh, well. Sucks to be them.
Recall, Palestinians in all areas were out on the streets celebrating on 9/11. Including Gaza. Do I feel any sorrow for what Gaza is going through now? None whatsoever. I'm not out in the streets celebrating, neither am I I protesting the Israeli actions. Sucks to be a Gazan right now.
Monday morning quarterbacking by a bunch of military illiterates masquerading as journolists (yeah the spelling of journoliat is correct). A journolist is a not particularly cunning or knowledgeable employee of the NYT or WaPo. Ben Rhodes was right when he said they were all 27 years old and knew nothing.
While we are Monday morning quarterbacking kiddos, where was the United States Air Force on September 11, 2001? Somebody else has also mentioned December 7, 1941.
These military setbacks happen--it's the response that counts.
This is what a decaying society looks like- incompetent. This is true throughout the western world. If the Israelis are this incompetent, what do you suppose this says about the U.S. and Western Europe?
And, I will note for the record- this wasn't a "massive" invasion. It was, at most, a couple of thousand men armed with automatic weapons.
https://spinstrangenesscharm.wordpress.com/2023/12/28/robert-aumann-was-prescient-when-he-opposed-2005-gaza-disengagement-palestinian-on-saudi-website-calls-for-replacing-pa-with-an-alternative-that-actually-serves-its-people/
Despite this, the IDF has been one of the most effective fighting forces in the world for decades. They've done a lot of things very well and at the top of the list of things they've done very well is public relations.
Ditto Mossad.
I wish them well in their current endeavor. They're going to need the PR as well as the war-fighting skills.
Going back to what I said when this began, the Israelis have something they must do, it's going to be ugly, but it must be done, and there will be a cost.
Yes… all that and ANOTHER MASSIVE FAILURE OF OUR OWN INTEL SERVICES
I commented just a moment ago before reading any comments.
Paul said...
And what would happen if terrorist in the USA, that came across the Southern Border, on command from a foreign country, all rose up and attacked malls, schools, churches, police stations, the power grid, ETC... ALL SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!!
What would be our 'response'???
Can't happen?? I bet it can and just might.
FJB!
That is being wargamed right now. By a lot of people. None (that I'm aware of) in a position of power to provide any official response. More people I know are carrying- even in states where it's notably not legal to do so. More people I know sitting with their eyes on the door and backs to a wall. (Also a symptom of PTSD I'm told.) Also near everyone I know avoids anyone in stereotypical islamic dress in public. Trying to stay out of the killing range of an explosive belt.
For some odd reason Israel is now loosening it's restrictions on civilians being armed. Almost like a sudden realization that an armed citizenry should be ready to defend itself. Almost as if the citizens themselves are the militia. As embedded in US law. Despite the best efforts of DemoncRAT totalitarians to disarm that militia, the first, or sometimes final, line of defense.
Another professional, Carl von Clausewitz, I think, wisely said, no plan survives contact with the enemy. Consequently, it doesn’t really matter whether a plan existed or not. Every successful defense is made up on the spur of the moment.
For example, the German high commands (there were two, the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht and the Oberbefehlshaber West) knew a cross-channel invasion was possible from the mid-summer of 1943 onward. In other words, they had almost a year to prepare a defensive plan and train forces to carry it out. Rommel believed his plan could hold the Allied on the beaches until armored forces could arrive and destroy them; he estimated 48 to 72 hours. Obviously he was wrong. All the planning and training held the Allies in place barely six hours on Omaha Beach, far more briefly on the other beaches. No plan survives contact with the enemy.
https://twitter.com/hahussain/status/1741127167184945539
Unconditional surrender would stop the fighting immediately. Hamas must do that. Gazan civilianss must do that. Otherwise, Hamas is waging a losing war, until they do surrender. I would not wait for a truce or a settlement or an intervention by others. Hamas is doomed if they don't surrender, and doomed if they do. The only thing Hamas continued existence causes is deaths of their forced civilian human shields.
rcocean:
Would you please stop saying that Israel has killed "20,000 Palestinian civilians"? It's an obvious lie, and repeating it makes you look like a liar or a fool or a Jew-hating bigot, or some combination of those three things.
What makes it an obvious lie is that Israel has in fact killed thousands of armed men who were firing various weapons at them - they say 8,000 so far. Yet the Gaza authorities (Hamas terrorists) continue to pretend that everyone killed in Gaza is a civilian. The fact that their fighters don't wear uniforms does not make them civilians, it makes them illegitimate soldiers, with less protection from the Geneva Conventions than legitimate soldiers and civilians have.
Further, there is no reason to believe that 12,000 non-fighters have died in Gaza, and we know for a fact that many actual Gazan civilians have been killed by Hamas and other terrorist groups, some hit by rockets fired at Israel that fall short, some shot by Hamas for not going where they're told when they're told, or for trying to get food from UN aid convoys when Hamas is keeping all the food for themselves.
"The Israel Defense Forces did not even have a plan to respond"
That's because they were too busy planning genocide.
\sarc, just so the local antisemites don't get any notions.
Dunno Chuck!.
Here at home we havea a demented, CCP (and more) compromised "leader" surging the border with illegals.
Very secure.
Would the US military do any better? I doubt it. We need a George Patton but he was even meaner than Trump.
April: Your right wing hero, Bibi Netanyahu, was the chief Hamas funding scumbag and a terrorist enabling traitor. Also, Hamas attacked the progressive liberal peacenik Israelites that you hate.
I love the smell of irony in the morning
Gee, on 9/11/2001, the Times was actually promoting terrorist bombings with a nostalgic think piece by Bill Ayers promoting more such surprise attacks. And if you read Steve Sailor, his quantification of excess murders since George Floyd and BLM are staggering.
Something is going to happen January 18. Maybe if we talk about it enough, it won't.
Playing soccer with severed women's breasts. Is that downstream or upstream from our girls just doing it to themselves?
Remember when the US flawlessly executed its plan to counter an attack by the imperial Japanese Navy on our bases at Pearl Harbor, Guam, Wake, and Manila? Good times.
Remember when the US flawlessly executed its plan to counter an attack by the imperial Japanese Navy on our bases at Pearl Harbor, Guam, Wake, and Manila? Good times.
So the original plot was scheduled for pesach according to caspit but they didnt have sufficient funding at that time
Maybe they [Israel] were thinking that a rational first world civilization was possible...clearly not.
At this point, a scorched earth policy seems like the more attainable objective.
"[A] New York Times investigation found that Israel’s military was undermanned, out of position and so poorly organized that soldiers communicated in impromptu WhatsApp groups and relied on social media posts for targeting information. Commandos rushed into battle armed only for brief combat. Helicopter pilots were ordered to look to news reports and Telegram channels to choose targets."
It looks to me (and the rest of the world) like Israel has been very successful in its campaign against the Hamas terrorists so far.
It also looks to me like this is total propaganda by people who want Israel to fail.
How low will the New York Times go....probably lower than this.
I find the idea of NYT auditing military action to be the most absurd idea this week- a week full of absurd ideas…
the world is ready to move on from the vile barbarians.
Again, I hate to quibble over headlines. But there was no "massive invasion". THere was a raid by maybe a thousand Hamas fighters, armed with AK-47s, some homemade rockets, and paragliders.
No tanks or AFVs, no artillery, no warplanes. No heavy mortars. No heavy MGs.
Most of the people killed were IDF soldiers and armed "Settlers". About 1400 were killed. Right now, over 20,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed by the IDF. So we're talking about a 15-1 kill ratio. When you talk about kids its 4000 palestinians children to about 100 Israelis. Or 40-1.
Every word of this is a lie, including "and and "the." Just to name a few: About 200 of the 1200+ Israelis killed on 10/7 were IDF. The Hamas fighters were accompanied by hundreds if not thousands of "civilians," including teenagers, who actively participated in the killing and general mayhem. They bragged about it themselves. The Israeli civilians were not "settlers," they were residents and citizens of Israel. Nor were many of them armed, notably those at the music festival. I could go on, but won't bother.
Howard said...
"Ultra right wing Likud ruling Israel for the 20+ years. I can't wait to see how this military failure is progressives fault."
Hindsight is always 20/20. Remember how the Progressives in Israel caused a lot of the Israel military to resign because they didn't like Netanyahu's court reforms?
That is exactly why this war is the fault of the Progressives in Israel.
where were the US FBI and CIA?
oh right? sniffing Biden's butt flaps.
I remember reading somewhere that Hamas had an actual plan of having their "warriors" drive across Israel and create a corridor between the West Bank and Gaza. I don't recall where I read it and don't care enough to look it up. I'm not sure what they would have done with the corridor or how they would have defended it. It seems that their "warriors" got distracted by all the available soft targets in the rave and and never made it past the first objective.
The Jew haters on this blog and elsewhere condemn Israel for allegedly committing genocide against the Gazans, as if the Gazans were innocent victims of a force that occupied them against their will and was oppressing them the way the Chinese oppress the Uyghurs. Completely absent is any evidence of this- everything the Gazans have done since electing Hamas indicates that they support Hamas' goals and Hamas' means.
I'm open to any evidence to the contrary. Until such evidence is available, civilian casualties are considered an expected (and desired by Hamas) consequence of the Hamas way of war.
It was a massive intelligence failure.
and? Bibi will not withstand this. His last thing he will is do all he can t take out Hamas. I wish him luck.
after that - his political career is over. Rejoice- oh leftists. a-holes.
Tina Trent said : "Something is going to happen January 18. Maybe if we talk about it enough, it won't."
What makes you say that, Tina? You are usually not a Cassandra.
blaming the victim is classic left-wing.
I expect nothing less.
The detail in South Africa’s legal case against Israel is astonishing!
South Africa is taking Israel to the International Court of Justice for Genocide, but the evidence gathered by them far outweighs just the headline.
From Reuters:
RAMALLAH, West Bank/BEIRUT, Dec 9 (Reuters) - Israeli forces unleashed an aerial and ground blitz against Hamas in Gaza after a cross-border rampage by the enclave's ruling Islamist group on Oct. 7. At least 17,487 Palestinians have been killed since then, according to Gaza Health Ministry figures,
ARE THE PUBLISHED CASUALTY NUMBERS COMPREHENSIVE?
No, experts told Reuters.
"Our monitoring suggests that the numbers provided by the Ministry of Health may be under-reporting as they do not include fatalities who did not reach hospitals or may be lost under the rubble," the U.N. human rights office spokesperson said.
"It is a logical assumption that the numbers being reported are underestimated, are low," said Nathaniel Raymond, Executive Director of the Humanitarian Research Lab at the Yale School of Public Health, who has worked on death counts in armed conflict and natural disasters for more than 20 years.
BTW, the Gaza health ministry now states the death toll is 21,230. But of course, they're just lying. Those damn brown people. Born liars, y'know. Because dropping tens of thousands of tons of bombs for almost 3 months, on one of the most densely populated places in the world, bombing apartment buildings, hosptials, and cutting off food, medical supplies, and water NEVER HURT ANYONE.
/Sarcasm off/
Do you people have a soul?
Chuck, that's a silly self-own. Under Trump, there was no war in Ukraine or in Gaza. That all happened on your guy's watch, and people here would love to talk about your guy's ethics and misuse of governmental powers.
Howard, the entire western world has been showering Hamas with money. Trump shut part of it off, but Biden immediately reinstated it. Don't pretend like this was something unique to Netanyahu.
Dr Weevil said...
rcocean:
"Would you please stop saying that Israel has killed "20,000 Palestinian civilians"? It's an obvious lie, and repeating it makes you look like a liar or a fool or a Jew-hating bigot, or some combination of those three things."
Right. According to South Africa's legal filing with the ICJ, there have been 21,110 Palestinian deaths in Gaza since Oct 7, and 70% of them were women and children. An additional 7, 780 women and children are 'missing,' presumably dying slowly under under the rubble, etc.
For Yancey Ward at 1:11--"not an invasion, only a couple of thousand men armed with automatic weapons".
Well the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor with less than 400 planes. It's true they were carrying bombs and torpedoes. But if all you are attacking is civilians, farmers, young folks at a rave, grannies and babies, you don't need tanks, bombs or torpedoes.
I should've said 'An additional 7, 780 people are missing including over 4,000 women and children presumably dying slowly under under the rubble, etc.'
Crack is giddy with excitement when he presents any new bit of news that he perceives as detrimental to Israel. It is odd that dead Arabs and Africans killed by non-Jews don't hold any interest to him. Same with rcocean, only the Jews seem to be held to any standard at all.
Netanyahu and Team Trump with its "Abraham Accords" thought they could bring a semblance of peace by suppressing Palestinians, expanding settlements, surrounding Israel with a fence and bribing other Arab states with favorable trade terms. It doesn't work. It provides only the illusion of peace, you can't buy friends. While Hamas bears full responsibility for the horrific crimes they committed, the scale of the disaster was a result of astonishing negligence by Netanyahu’s government.
The settlements, besides being morally indefensible, are the biggest single obstacle to a two state solution. For many people without a personal stake in the conflict the occupation has become the face of Israel in the world. The settler movement is an integral part of Netanyahu's coalition and the driving force behind the proposed changes to the Supreme Court. Israel has two choices. They can give up the settlements and might eventually find peace, or they can keep the settlements and never find peace.
Yes south africa well kill the boer is the national passtime
This goldilocks template is a little amusing
Yep, NYT is the finest source of BS. Harvard edumacated.
L chaim
https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1741215909329461494
Maybe the New York Times should ask President Biden and Secretary of Defense Brown what plans they have developed for a surprise invasion on our southern border by millions of military-aged men camouflaged as civilian dreamers.
John McWhorter, describing the Zionists perfectly, as they go on this killing spree against innocent civilians
It's the strangest example of transference - Zionists imposing the horrors of Naziism onto others - the world has ever seen.
so Israel is lockstep with US culture of corruption and decay!!
US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has bypassed congress and approved the sale of high explosive artillery shells and related equipment to Israel. Blinken pushed through the 147-million dollar deal by declaring it an emergency. He made a similar decision on December 9, approving a 106-million dollar sale of tank ammunition for Israel.
Imagine the reaction if the IDF had detailed plans to take out Hamas and routinely trained on it.
=====
all the while Bibi would be financing HAMAS too!!! Ha Ha Ha
NYTimes, need a second opinion.
@rcocean, @Crack, Hamas has not yet surrendered unconditionally, therefore the IDF has not killed enough Gazans. Keep up the bombing and don’t stop until nothing like October 7th ever happens again. There are reportedly 2.2 million people living in Gaza, so there is some number of dead Palestinians less than 2.2 million at which point unconditional surrender is the only feasible option. It’s up to Hamas where that point lies. It’s up to the IDF to drive them to that point.
I’m an atheist; I don’t believe I have a soul. If the two of you believe that you do, then you should contemplate which pit in the lowest rings of Hell are reserved for people who are apologists for rapists and child murderers.
The Crack Emcee writes "Right..."
Wrong!
Show us the bodies first, then prove they were killed by Israelis. And don't get caught dancing the South African Mistake again, it could get very embarrassing.
Israeli bulldozers demolish tents, bury Palestinians alive: Report
Blogger Howard said...
April: Your right wing hero, Bibi Netanyahu, was the chief Hamas funding scumbag and a terrorist enabling traitor. Also, Hamas attacked the progressive liberal peacenik Israelites that you hate.
I love the smell of irony in the morning
The irony, I grant you, is the progressives dancing in a "rave" event close to the Gaza border.
The left, including the intelligence chief, seemed to have stopped warnings in a desire to humiliate Netanyahu in a political hit job. The Biden border collapse is similar but Israel is closer to annihilation than we are. The Israeli left is really playing with fire.
Looks like neither rcocean nor The Crack Emcee nor Hamas nor the South African government is willing to admit that any of the people killed in Gaza are in fact legitimate targets of the IDF. Why are y'all so utterly dishonest?
Here's what Thomas Wictor tweeted last October about how Hamas lies about casualties:
Twitter thread from Thomas Wictor (October 10, 2023) – (link to first tweet):
As the Israeli Operation Swords of Iron against terrorists in Gaza begins, we're seeing the same propaganda put out during Operation Protective Edge (July 8, 2014 – August 26, 2014).
Here are some things to keep in mind as the current war progresses:
I am the only person on earth who took the time to actually verify the claims made about deaths of Palestinian civilians.
To do so, I studied hundreds of thousands of documents, photos, and videos.
These are my conclusions.
1. The majority of the bodies seen were intact and showed no major traumatic injuries, inconsistent with death by high-explosive aerial munition or artillery.
2. In videos, Palestinian civilians are seen running TOWARD explosions, indicating that they know that the Israelis use guided munitions and will not hit a target already destroyed.
3. If the bombing and shelling were indiscriminate, one would expect the victims to represent the demographics of Gaza: roughly evenly split between males and females of all ages, with 50 percent under the age of 18.
This was not so.
3. (cont.) Instead, 60 percent of the dead “civilians” were military-aged males, 10 percent were adult females, 5 percent were elderly men and women, while only 25 percent were reported under the age of 18.
Additionally, terrorists use children as young as five as combatants.
4. Of the children, 80 percent of the dead were males, while only 20 percent were females.
5. Of the children, at least half of the males over 13 had terrorist martyrdom posters, indicating that they were combatants.
The youngest acknowledged combatant was nine years old.
6. Of the children, several were listed as adults on multiple lists.
(part 1 of 2)
Here's the second half of Thomas Wictor's tweet thread:
7. The majority of military-aged men reported as civilians were in fact terrorist operatives, as revealed by terrorist martyrdom posters or announcements.
8. No two lists of the 2200 civilian dead contained the same names, and no two lists contained consistent ages for those named.
9. One hundred percent of the victims on all lists were identified, despite the nature of their alleged modes of death. No victim was burned beyond recognition, blown to pieces, or buried irretrievably under rubble.
Nobody went missing either.
10. In Gaza, the terrorists blew up over 3000 buildings and fired over 800 rockets that fell short. It is unknown how many of the thousands of mortar rounds fell short. Video and photographic evidence shows that at minimum, hundreds of Palestinians were killed by their own side.
11. Battle damage on cars and buildings in Gaza shows the use of weapons not in the Israeli arsenal; for example, holes created by explosive ordnance packed with ball bearings.
12. Palestinian medics reported that the overwhelming majority of the civilians killed in the Battle of Shijaya were locked inside their homes by terrorists.
13. The Fatah Party reported that Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad carried out hundreds of political murders. Cross-checking the names show that these were reported as civilians killed by Israel.
14. According to Palestinian eyewitnesses, terrorists murdered civilians trying to flee or violating curfew and counted these deaths as caused by Israel.
15. Terrorists in Gaza have adopted the concept of “involuntary martyrdom,” which means that civilians can be murdered so that their deaths can be attributed to the actions of Israel.
This will be my only post on X.
Nor will I read or respond to comments.
Godspeed, Israel. You will win in Gaza, and then you must deal with Iran.
Best to all,
TW
A better headling, NYT:
What was Israel thinking, going out in public wearing such a skimpy dress?
@ rcocean: Here we go again.
"Those damn brown people. Born liars, y'know."
Taqiyya, y'know. https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx
"Do you people have a soul?" Yes. We also have brains and memories. Was your soul on display when 350,000 were killed in Syria? How about the 20,000 killed by Isis? 377,000 in Yemen? No. It wasn't.
Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in the Middle East in the past few years, but all you and No Rapes Crack are concerned about are the death tolls reported by the consorts of Hamas terrorists accusing Jews.
I wonder why.
In any case, blaming Netanyahu for being saddled with military and intelligence leaders who were out to get him rather than protect the country, as the NYT and some fools here want to do, is like blaming Trump for all the DC swamp that spent four years undermining him. Yeah, both probably could have done more to sack some people, but I suspect that's easier said than done. And Netanyahu and been PM for less than a year.
It's also similar to blaming Israel for the deaths and destruction in Gaza. Hamas, with full support of the Gaza population, started the war. They can end tomorrow by surrendering.
The same thing happens to every nation. We have Pearl Harbor, The Philippines, Pancho Villa on the Mexican border.
Everybody gets complacent. In this case, I think it was a tactical move by Hamas to keep things quiet the past couple of years. This lulled the Israelis into being lazy. Poor command performance. They should have kept the sentries on their toes.
Combined that with some interesting tactics, like using drones to take out the (NON-REDUNDANT!) surveillance towers, and you have disaster.
Hamas and Iran put a lot of work and thought into this. They must be made to pay.
Crack: "Right. According to South Africa's legal filing with the ICJ, there have been 21,110 Palestinian deaths in Gaza since Oct 7 ...."
Seriously? What, exactly, gives South Africa special insight into deaths in Gaza.
Say, did we miss your link to the NYT story confirming the rapes, torture and atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists against Israeli women? You know, the stuff you claimed never happened.
What a surprise! Since NYT confirmed the Hamas atrocities against women, a hit piece on Israel was a necessary follow up. Objectivity, you know. /S
The unintended takeaway, of course, is that Israel must be constantly alert to Palestinian treachery and that a terrorist jihad is being waged against them by Hamas.
There can be no peace.
"A Times investigation....." tells me everything I need to know.
rcocean and Crack,
It is a wonder that you accept estimates of deaths in Gaza from the Gazan Health Ministry, a Hamas controlled source (undoubtedly the source for the South Africans as well as Reuters, AP, the entire lot). The Gaza Health Ministry is undoubtedly the only source you could be relying on - other than Israeli estimates, which admit to being tentative - since Hamas does not as near as I can tell allow independent assessments of the total deaths.
I have to wonder at the readiness (of the media in general, not just you two) to rely on obvious terrorist killers for your statistics rather than the tentative estimates of a democratic nation. Even though we have one clear case of a claim by that terrorist ministry of health of 500 killed by Israel in a hospital that it turns out was NOT even hit by what was likely an Islamic Jihad rocket gone astray. Instead, the estimates of that parking lot explosion are 10-50 killed, but no one knows. Even at 50, that's a 1:10 ratio next to 500. Are you not the least bit suspicious that that same ratio, at least, might apply to all these other statistics?
Don't get me wrong. I think a horrendous loss of life is taking place in Gaza now. If you truly care to see that stop there is only one way. End the rule of Hamas totally. If that does not happen, the deaths will recur over and over and expand. Is that what you want?
"Hamas has not yet surrendered unconditionally, therefore the IDF has not killed enough Gazans. Keep up the bombing and don’t stop until nothing like October 7th ever happens again."
Anybody who supports killing of thousands, and even hundred of thousands, of innocent women and children is either a pyschopath or a criminal. Its hard to tell the difference between Himmler, Beria, and Netenyahu at this point. Unless its a difference in numbers of victims.
The IDF are cowards. They could go in and fight Hamas man to man. They have the tanks, weapons, and training, that would allow them to achieve complete victory using their ground forces. But they prefer to murder women and children from the air, and do ethnic cleansing.
That Genocide Joe is using my tax dollars for it, is disgusting.
And given the scale of the war crimes being committed by Israel, you wonder where the International courts are. Perhaps they too are cowards. Or Hypocrites.
"Hamas has not yet surrendered unconditionally, therefore the IDF has not killed enough Gazans. Keep up the bombing and don’t stop until nothing like October 7th ever happens again."
Anybody who supports killing of thousands, and hundred of thousands, of innocent women and children is either a pyschopath or a criminal.
The IDF are cowards. They could go in and fight Hamas man to man. They have the tanks, weapons, and training, that would allow them to achieve complete victory using their ground forces. But they prefer to murder women and children from the air, and do ethnic cleansing.
Given the scale of the war crimes being committed by Israel, you wonder where the International courts are. Perhaps they too are cowards. Or Hypocrites.
Israel's biggest mistake was letting their guard down in the presence of Muzzies. Muzzies are first and foremost Muzzies. They have ingrained all the instruction's in Big Mo's book which, if nothing else, preaches Jew hatred.
In other words, Israel can NEVER trust Muzzies to be anything but Muzzies and all that that entails.
Howard: "Ultra right wing Likud ruling Israel for the 20+ years. I can't wait to see how this military failure is progressives fault."
20+ years! LOL
Siri, what are the Kadima, Yamina and Yesh Atid political parties?
Too funny.
It's annoying to see it all laid at the feet of Netanyahu. It's like seeing Trump blamed for not finishing the border wall, when there was a huge effort arrayed against him, Republican, Democrat and Administrative Bureaucrat, to prevent precisely that. Netanyahu has just been through a similar multi-year effort by an array of actors, including the IDF leaders, to topple him. And now this existential disaster has struck, which could arguably be laid at the feet of those responsible for defensive readiness, on the argument that they were distracted by their own political distractions/aspirations.
Good to see them cleaning house though. Too bad about the NYT continuing to disgrace itself. But I guess if someone has to do it, it may as well be them.
Interesting NYT editorial choice in making this the subject to spend its limited resources 'investigating.' I guess nothing happened or happening in the US or even NYC that has a higher priority to investigate?
Want to bet Biden has read this NYT article while sunning in St Croix, and has ordered a comprehensive review of our on the shelf military contingency plans?
I'll take the bet. I'll double down on it and bet he only guesses the day of week correctly 3 out of 7. That's spotting him Saturday and Sunday
If in a short window of cogency, Biden would put in a request, nobody takes orders from Biden.
Adapt and overcome.
When the shit jumps off you do what you gotta.
Military preparedness is up to military management.
We've got Millie Vanilly and his twinkies.
and tens of divisions of foreign military age invaders.
Sleep well tonight...
Then there's this.
A report from the Swiss-German paper of record, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, claimed that statistics from the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA) show that more than one thousand women — mostly Germans — have been sexually assaulted by migrants seeking refuge every year since 2017.
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/12/30/over-7000-women-in-germany-have-been-raped-or-sexually-assaulted-by-asylum-seeking-migrants/
Where have we seen this behavior last October?
'Right. According to South Africa's legal filing...'
You mean the country that can't even keep its lights on after killing/kicking out all the white folks who knew how to run things?
Hilarious.
'Israeli bulldozers demolish tents, bury Palestinians alive: Report'
Will save the cost of a funeral...
Einstein!
So the NYT concludes that "The soldiers that day made it up as they went along...."
Gee: welcome to Surprise Attack Warfighting 1-A, NYT.
Maybe if a bunch of your editors or reporters had actually served in the military you wouldn't mistake something akin to "The sun rises in the east" as brilliant wisdom.
No doubt Israeli intelligence/decision making failed miserably here.
An acual "plan" is a big deal, even if it's a little plan.
For example, one minor responsibility would involve six Apaches from the 48th AHC. It would include the alert communication. It would include the AHC's plan to have six birds ready to go on--specified--time from alert. It would include the forward base for return for fuel and ammo, presuming home base is out of range. The forward base, if appropriate, would show it was ready to receive e this six, if necessary, without getting behind in its other responsibilities.
It would specify comms procedures if only saying something like' The usual".
And forget about counting the footnotes to the footnotes.
One earlier report had the alert pilots in their gunships begging for authorization to launch, which didn't come. For six hours. No idea if that was genuine, but the reports about gunship support indicated that it was considerably longer in coming than the four minutes' flying time from one or another of the closer bases.
A valid response to this would require maybe a thousand Infantrymen rucked up and hanging around their transport, trucks, AFV, helicopters. All day. All week. Doing nothing else. All year.
Or having more trained and armed people up front, just in case. Whoever dismissed the just-in-case needs some counseling. Maybe call Trudeau for some MAID.
In other words, Israel is progressing to minimize Hamas viability, and empathizers with anti-Jews... Zionists, will have to enjoy murder, rape, torture... torture-torture, and abduction in other venues.
Is South Africa still the rape capital of the world? Or has Oslo progressed? Are Mandela's Xhosa still assassinating their Zulu competitors? Does South Africa still operate under a progressive constitution: systemic diversity, redistributive change, civil viability, and human rites?
[Ethnic] Spring in Ukraine. Slavery in China. Occupy Tibet. Immigration reform in America. Levine dreams of Herr Mengele. At least Obama's premature withdrawal from Iraq was resolved before Biden's disastrous abandonment of Afghanistan. #SomeSelectBlackLivesMatter #HateLovesAbortion
"Right. According to South Africa's legal filing...'
You mean the country that can't even keep its lights on after killing/kicking out all the white folks who knew how to run things?
A native genocide to end "apartheid" intended to mitigate the progress of a tribal conflict between Mandela's Xhosa and Zulu and native collateral damage. South Africa has liberalized with a pre-colonial pogrom in its post-colonial phase under a progressive constitution.
Chick said...
Want to bet Biden has read this NYT article while sunning in St Croix, and has ordered a comprehensive review of our on the shelf military contingency plans? I bet he has.
************
Biden doesn't read anything any more. His lips get too tired.
hombre (to Hamas 7th Century Death Cult Fanboy Li'l Crack-y): "Say, did we miss your link to the NYT story confirming the rapes, torture and atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists against Israeli women? You know, the stuff you claimed never happened."
Oh, it was much, much worse than that.
Li'l Crack-y actually claimed that the murderous Hamas attack on civilians followed by hostage taking, rapes, torture and holding and abusing the hostages for months was the LITERAL EQUIVALENT of having taken a yoga class!
Think of how degraded your soul would have to be to write something so pathetically and cowardly inhumane.
And I dont need to hear Li'l Crack-y's personal failure sob stories as some bizarre rationale for why he immediately and effortlessly identified with murderous islamic supremacists.
Its not worth anyone's time to try and plumb the shallowness (there is no depth in the slightest) of twisted minds like that.
"The IDF are cowards. They could go in and fight Hamas man to man. They have the tanks, weapons, and training, that would allow them to achieve complete victory using their ground forces. But they prefer to murder women and children from the air, and do ethnic cleansing."
**********
Yeah, rcocean, the IDF are clearing all those underground tunnels from the air.
Ditto fighting Hamas in the many public and private buildings the latter are hiding in--they're doing that by air, too..
Deep down, you're a dumbass.
So 'rcocean', double-posting at 7:01pm and 7:02pm, still can't bring himself to say how many (if any) legitimate targets the Israeli Defense Forces have killed in Gaza. Israel says 8,000+. Hamas says 0, because all Gazans are innocent civilians, even the rapists, murderers, torturers, mutilators, and hostage-takers, and even those killed in the very act of trying to kill Israelis with guns, bombs, and rockets. So which is it, 'rcocean'?
And how can you write this: "The IDF are cowards. They could go in and fight Hamas man to man. They have the tanks, weapons, and training, that would allow them to achieve complete victory using their ground forces. But they prefer to murder women and children from the air, and do ethnic cleansing."
Do you really not know that the IDF has been on the ground in Gaza for many weeks with "tanks, weapons, and training" going door to door to find and kill Hamas and to try to find and rescue hostages? So far, 172 of them have been killed, which is 172 more than would have been killed if they were just flying over in airplanes dropping bombs, as you say they are doing. Why do you tell blatant and obvious lies, dipshit? It looks to me like you are the one without a soul, or a mind.
"Israeli bulldozers demolish tents, bury Palestinians alive: Report"
A few weeks ago someone tweeted a picture of bulldozers running over tents with a label very much like this one. It took all of a minute and a half for someone to do an image search and prove that that picture was 6-7 years old and came from Egypt. Of course, hundreds had already seen and liked and retweeted the original lie.
This claim is almost certainly another damned lie.
rcocean said..."The IDF are cowards. They could go in and fight Hamas man to man. They have the tanks, weapons, and training"
OK, RC. Make the Hamas "fighters" come out from behind their women, children, and hostage human shields, abandon their fighting positions in Mosques and schools, and face down the IDF in the open.
Kinda like US Marines or the 101st Airborne Division do when they are about to deliver a can of whoop-ass.
That word "coward" you keep using. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Anybody who supports killing of thousands, and hundred of thousands, of innocent women and children is either a pyschopath or a criminal.
As this no doubt directed at me, I shall be pleased to respond. Shit happens in war. If one twists the tail of a Tiger, one should not be amazed to have to deal with its teeth and claws. Your support for an organization and a people who regard rape and murder of women, children, and even babies as a valid tactic utterly disgusts me. It must take one Hell of a lot of degenerate antisemitism to complain about the justifiable punishment of rapists and murderers on grounds that the victims were merely Jewish. Never again!
And given the scale of the war crimes being committed by Israel, you wonder where the International courts are. Perhaps they too are cowards. Or Hypocrites.
Or perhaps Israel has broken no international laws? So far the only criminal activity of which I am aware are the rapes and murders committed by Hamas and other Palestinians on October 7th.
I don’t care about dead Hamas supporters. Hostages were held by women and children. My concern is the 300,000 dead Syrians at the hands of Assad and his Russian henchmen. Since my concern involves much greater numbers than your concern about Gaza I can only conclude that you support Putin and Assad. You simply don’t care about hundreds of thousands of dead Arabs. Who will mob our streets and monuments and college campuses on their behalf? Please don’t bother me with Hamas until you solve the Syrian genocide!
“In the case of Israel and the Arab world, I’ve spent a fair amount of time in both and I like both. And I felt terrible for the people who were killed on October 7, I still do. So I had no weird motive, I was just thinking about it from an American perspective: Is this good for us or is it not? And I was just amazed by the intolerance and the willingness to immediately go to invective and character assassination.....I’m a hater, a bigot, or something like that. None of that registered with me,...But I did think it showed like the level of not just corruption, which I knew, but of like emotional instability and crazy.”
- Tucker Carlson
In 1973 the Arab nations massed hundreds of thousands of soldiers, tens of thousands of tanks, artillery pieces, and military vehicles on Israel's border and attacked on Yom Kippur without detection. 10/7 was a repeat on a smaller scale.
They could go in and fight Hamas man to man.
You mean like a wrestling match? Best 2 out of three falls wins control of the country? We should have thought of that with the Japanese in WWII, it could have saved a lot of lives. Of course they have those big Sumo guys. Maybe not such a great idea.
I didn't read the NYT piece, but was there a mention Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret? It would be stupid not to consider the dates of these holidays when talking about military response times on Oct7. Shemini Atzeret fell on Oct7 in 2023. I'm sure Hamas knew what day it was.
The attack on Pearl Harbor was an intelligence failure on the part of the Japanese. They didn't factor the possibility that Hiroshima and Nagasaki might be the ultimate result of their attack.....Same thing with Hamas. What did they think was going to happen to Gaza after they finished their rape and mutilation spree? I don't use the expression as a metaphor. They're dumb fucks.
"the International Court of Justice "
LOL... filled with clowns, mobsters, grifters, anti-Semites and more!
William 6:39
That.
Taibbi: Is Israel War EXPOSING Right Wing Free Speech Hypocrisy?
Yep. The people who hated cancel culture, before, now ARE cancel culture. This shows they've had no core values. It's all been about tyranny. The entire right-wing exposure/makeover process, going from being perfectly annoying American racists to fascists of the world, drinking the blood of children, is remarkable to behold. But behold it we do: Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald - name a good reporter and they're reeling from the right's excesses. And all the fascists can say in reply is "I don't care."
That's not gonna cut it, Bub.
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
"I don’t care about dead Hamas supporters."
In case anyone needed evidence I spoke the truth about fascists.
Does no one remember the Hamas official saying October 7 was just the first strike. That a series of October 7's would follow?
Does no one remember that the Hamas official position is the elimination of Israel?
Does no one remember the joyful celebrations of the genera population of Gaza that followed the "success" of October 7?
Does ANYONE think Hamas would not recover and regroup (with American treasure) with more October 7's to follow if they are not eliminated?
William: "Same thing with Hamas. What did they think was going to happen to Gaza after they finished their rape and mutilation spree?"
They knew exactly what would happen. Israel's military response would provide fodder for the propaganda war conducted by Muslims, the UN and other antisemites throughout the world.
Look at the Middle East over the last 10 or so years. Hundreds of thousands are dead. What are a few Gazans sacrificed on the altar of Islamist Jew hatred?
After the Jews, they will come for you - and me.
NYT blames Israel (BiBi) for Hamassholes Attacks.
My shocked fac is worn out...
Jonathan Burack said...
"It is a wonder that you accept estimates of deaths in Gaza from the Gazan Health Ministry, a Hamas controlled source,..."
The Gazan Health Ministry was considered a reliable source until Oct 7. Why people like you have become paranoid and accusatory, now, is a bigger wonder, considering they weren't spreading stories of 40 decapitated babies, but Israel still is.
"I have to wonder at the readiness (of the media in general, not just you two) to rely on obvious terrorist killers for your statistics rather than the tentative estimates of a democratic nation."
You're paranoid AND doing a lot of dark "wondering" about others - connection? Israel is not a democracy. Hamas is a liberation organization. Hamas is fighting Zionists because they're not a democratic. That's why real Americans trust Hamas and not Israel.
"Even though we have one clear case of a claim by that terrorist ministry of health of 500 killed by Israel in a hospital that it turns out was NOT even hit by what was likely an Islamic Jihad rocket gone astray."
Nope - Israel did it - the blast was too big to be produced by Hamas' fireworks.
"Instead, the estimates of that parking lot explosion are 10-50 killed, but no one knows. Even at 50, that's a 1:10 ratio next to 500. Are you not the least bit suspicious that that same ratio, at least, might apply to all these other statistics?"
Why would I be suspicious of the occupied more than the occupier? Einstein said, if there's a problem in Palestine, first blame the British, and then Zionism's "misguided criminals" and "terrorists". I've seen nothing to make that statement inoperable.
"Don't get me wrong. I think a horrendous loss of life is taking place in Gaza now."
So your eyes work but your brain's on fire, with wonderings and suspicions about those evil Palestinians who just won't leave the land they've lived on for 1,000 years. Incredible.
"If you truly care to see that stop there is only one way. End the rule of Hamas totally."
Anybody who says there's only one way - the only way they see it - is an unimaginative fascist working for tyranny. You would've held Nelson Mandela for his entire life. MLK would've died in a Birmingham jail. Because you couldn't see any other way. Boy, am I glad you're not in charge of anything.
"If that does not happen, the deaths will recur over and over and expand. Is that what you want?"
First, Hamas already told you that's not going to happen, so you're murdering innocent people - and America's accomplices to it - for nothing. Second, you're doing it to avoid dismantling Israel's apartheid system - an idea that hasn't occurred to you in all your wonderings - because that would expose the fact Israel's NOT a democracy.
And no fascist into tyranny wants that, right?
So what is your excuse for not shedding a tear for 300,000 dead Syrians, mostly women and children, all civilians? Is it that you are an ultra-mega-fascist? Is that it?
I read all this half-witted drivel from Crack and rcocean, and it can be a bit disheartening to realize that some people are so blinded by their own prejudices that they cannot see the difference between right and wrong. But then I consider that out of all the many people commenting here, these two are the only two supporting Hamas over Israel, at least publicly. That shows that for all the political diversity here (and despite a strong rightward tilt, there is diversity of opinion), there is a core of clear thinking and decency with regard to Israel.
It was negligent not to have a plan.
But, you cannot plan for everything. It is important to have a strategy for dealing with unexpected situations and the "unknown unknowns".
The way that social media has allowed militaries to respond in innovative ways in both Ukraine/Russia and Israel is remarkable. I hope people in the US military are paying attention. Empowering competent people to respond on their own initiative at a low level seems like an effective tactic that is being made even more important with these new forms of communication.
Crack’s and Rocean’s mendacity here is astounding. I mean Crack is Crack (Whack), just a loser whining about his finances and circumstances on the internet, but I don’t recall Rocean as being unhinged, so unhinged that he’s spouting nonsense, but I guess Jew hatred is a lot bigger deal than this non religious guy can comprehend.
Ampersand: there is a nationwide "peaceful" protest planned for January 18 by a massive number of anti-Israeli, anti-police, and anti capitalism groups, many national or international, to "commemorate" the anniversary of the shooting of Venezuelan eco-terrorist Manuel Teran, or "Tortiguita."
Who bought a gun, shot a cop, and was then killed by police.
A massive coalition of groups are participating nationally. Their message morphs over time -- eco-rights, anti-cop, anti-Israel, pro-trans and gay, but it's been stuck on Gaza for a while. They're trying to turn "Tortiguita" into the next George Floyd.
These protests are never actually peaceful, and they rely on surprise. So the more we call our city and county leaders and talk to them about it, the less likely these seasoned violent protest leaders are likely to do damage on the 18th.
There are national maps and actions and doxings still up on the internet. The Quakers and AFSC are sheltering the terrorists. You might go to your local Quaker Meeting house and look for flyers.
Crack, as an "unimaginative fascist," I do have to thank you for taking the time to respond to so much of my comment. I love the bit about the parking lot crater being too large for what Hamas can do. But I believe it was Islamic Jihad's rocket that made that crater, not Hamas's. So I guess Islamic Jihad has cornered the market on big-enough holes. As for imagination, I think relying on Al Jazeera (of Qatar) as you do asks for more imagination than I can muster. All power to you. Anyway, I am glad you are around. Keeps things lively around here.
Calling people who disagree with your opinion “fascists” is exactly the same as calling Hamas sympathizers “animals.” It is labeling. Rhetorical shorthand that signals to the reader your viewpoint. What gives the label weight or not is the context and the array of facts provided to support your argument. In the greater context we have two systems of government at war and we have the historical behavior to judge them by. If the world was forced to choose whether to be governed by Hamas or Israel I have no doubt many would choose Hamas because for many that would provide the opportunity to kill off their enemies. But I think most of the world would choose Israel because they have a representative Democracy and even the Muslim citizens of Israel have expressed a preference for Israel to prevail over Hamas. There is no example of a Muslim majority that runs a country which could reasonably be judged to conform with our Bill of Rights. Israel does have that Classical Liberal approach. It is within this context that, as Old and Slow notes, the majority of us here are on the side of Civilization over Barbarism.
"He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."
Words from our Declaration if Independence. Jefferson and the founding fathers were horrified at "merciless savages" that killed men, women, and children.
Today, the IDF - and their supporters - are the merciless savages. Killing Palestinians from the air, bombing apartment buildings and hospitals, killing Christians leaving their Gaza Churches, starving and denying them medicine. 21,000 killed so far. The vast majority women and children.
Again, Israel could take out the Hamas fighters by sending in their infantry. Instead they bomb civilians from the air, conducting ethnic cleansing. Hoping that if they kill 20 men, women, and children, 1 will be a Hamas fighter.
All made possible by Genocide Joe Biden.
Once this war is over, there will be consequences. Netanyahu and the chiefs of the intelligence services and the IDF should all lose their jobs for gross negligence. But that can wait. In the meantime, Israel should be focusing only on winning this war.
LOL, Cracky, having exhausted his supply of a stand up comedian's act as a reputable source gives us.... (drum roll)... Al Jazeera as a source to counter virtually every other media outlet. (Even left leaning sources like the NY Times.
Hey Cracky, why not cut out the middle man. Post your insane, ignorant takes on your own site. Then link to them and say, "See, SEE, here's proof!"
hombre said...
"After the Jews, they will come for you - and me."
And it's not like you've earned it or anything.
Stick said...
NYT blames Israel (BiBi) for Hamassholes Attacks.
Einstein said first blame the British, then the Zionists, so - if you're shocked - it's because you're rejecting reality in order to blame the victims.
rcocean (10:51am):
"Again, Israel could take out the Hamas fighters by sending in their infantry. Instead they bomb civilians from the air, conducting ethnic cleansing."
I already noted in my 9:45am comment that this is a bald-faced lie. Israeli troops, infantry and armor, are on the ground and have been for weeks, taking heavy casualties as they fight Hamas members hiding behind civilians.
Correct your lie, rcocean, or be damned as a contemptible swinish lying piece of shit. Quite possibly a paid liar: I can't think of any other reason someone would repeat such obvious lies after they are refuted.
Old and slow said...
"I read all this half-witted drivel from Crack and rcocean, and it can be a bit disheartening to realize that some people are so blinded by their own prejudices that they cannot see the difference between right and wrong."
Y'all reveal yourselves to be racists every fucking day and your unethical ass got the nerve to talk about prejudices. You already admitted you don't care what's true, so wtf? Try this Mr. Ethics:
Right: saving the Jews from the Nazis.
Wrong: Zionists being allowed to chase Palestinians off their land because hypocritical western anti-semite nations, including the US, didn't want them either.
Right: Hamas defending the Palestinians when no one else will.
Wrong: Zionists being allowed to slaughter the Palestinians for Hamas' actions.
donald said...
"Crack’s,...just a loser whining about his finances and circumstances on the internet"
Please provide evidence - or admit you're an unimaginative racist liar. I post a lot, so it should be easy: show me a post where I'm "whining about [my] finances and circumstances on the internet" or wallow in knowing what a low life you are, because you're too much of a coward and asshole to say you're wrong and apologize.
God, white people can suck.
Jonathan Burack said...
"As for imagination, I think relying on Al Jazeera (of Qatar) as you do asks for more imagination than I can muster."
Al Jazeera (of Qatar) has the most comprehensive Middle East coverage in the world. Democracy Now! is the best in the US. I remember conservatives complaining about how bad our media was once. I guess Oct 7 also made the NYT and Wolf Blitzer into honest injuns all of a sudden. And FOX - whoa - no Zionist bias there, huh? Hilarious.
"All power to you. Anyway, I am glad you are around. Keeps things lively around here."
Fair enough. Same here. Tip o' the hat, to you, Sir. Your example might teach these other fools how to behave.
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
Calling people who disagree with your opinion “fascists” is exactly the same as calling Hamas sympathizers “animals.” It is labeling.
Please: Killing 21,000 people marks a clear difference.
Douglas B. Levene said...
"Israel should be focusing only on winning this war."
How many times must it be said they can't win this war? It's unwinnable. It's a political problem, not a military one. That's why Israel's losing by killing.
Dismantling the apartheid system is their only choice - and then they're going to lose anyway through demographics.
Israel was just a bad idea.
So the anti-Semites at the Times have decided that is was the fault of the Israeli military. Perhaps we should consider the possibility that it was the fault of the Palestinians. If anyone in Israel was at fault, it was the leadership who had come to falsely believe that the Palestinians could be reasoned with while the State of Israel still existed. Well, they know better now...and the Palestinians are learning the cost of teaching the Israeli's a bitter lesson. And they have also learned that the rest of the world will cry and make noise...but not interfere with whatever the Israeli's decide to do about it.
During the The French & Indian War, Benjamin Franklin questioned the loyalty of the German settlers, the Pennsylvania Deutsch. He didn't think they were sufficiently hostile to the French. The Indians, however, settled the argument by launching several bloody raids against the Germans. After that, the Germans knew which side they were on, and Franklin ceased to question their loyalty.....There are fault lines in Israeli society, but the Palestinians don't know how to exploit them. Perhaps if they adopted some of the non-violent tactics that O'Connell and, later, Gandhi used against the British, they would have more success. Those people at that rave concert were just the type to get on board with a Palestinian Gandhi. They'd like nothing more than to wave peace flags at Netanyahu. Sadly, Hamas has forever foreclosed that possibility by raping and mutilating their potential allies....I don't think I'm particularly philo-Semitic, but the choice between Hamas and Israel is a no-brainer. I'd even give Isis a higher moral plateau than Hamas. So far as has been reported, they don't mutilate the women they rape.
Hey Crack, you fucking moron. Your friends in Hamas have started something they can't finish, so now you would like Israel to step back and let them regroup. Yeah, that sounds like a great plan. Alternatively, Hamas could unconditionally surrender. Barring that, I'm quite all right with Israel completing its work, whatever that will ultimately entail. The choice belongs to the ones who kicked this off, and we know they only value women and children as human shields and propaganda tools.
Haaretz - Israeli Army Begins Withdrawing Large Numbers of Troops From Gaza Strip; Report: U.K., U.S. Prepare to Attack Houthis
Israel Must Recognize That It's Lost the Gaza War So It Can End the Palestinian Conflict
The Guardian, UK - Israel is losing the war against Hamas – but Netanyahu and his government will never admit it
The Print - Israel is losing weapons to Hamas, withdrawing battalions. Gaza war now becomes Stalingrad
Foreign Affairs Magazine - How Israel Could Lose America: Netanyahu Risks Letting the War in Gaza Jeopardize an Essential Alliance
‘Israel is losing the support of the rest of the world’
"A Times Investigation". . . as the late great college Football commentator Keith Jackson would saw, "Whoa Nellie!". Anything that starts that way is going to lead to intellectual tapioca--at best, and feed lot bull dust more often. Doesn't matter the topic nor the day of the week.
'Absolutely predictable': Analyst on why Hamas attacked Israel
Rich said...
Israel has controlled all movement into and out of the Gaza strip since 1967. Dubai, Singapore, and every other prosperous city-state in existence has developed economically via free trade with the outside world. This is not possible when a foreign military occupation cuts off sea and air access. Please give us an example of one country or territory which has successfully developed its economy while under a half-century long sea and air blockade.
Were those successful city states run by an anti-Semitic genocidal cult whose raison detra was the elimination of its neighbor? As always, Rich, you confuse cause and effect. Israel defending itself from a terrorist regime is the cause of Gaza's failure to develop as a proseperous entity? Destroying all of those Israel-built greenhouses in 2005 was, as they say in poker, a "tell."
Hamas 7th Century Dearh Cult Fanboy Li'l Crack-y: "Fair enough. Same here. Tip o' the hat, to you, Sir. Your example might teach these other fools how to behave."
LOL
I don't take instructions from supporters, like yourself, of murderous stone age mentality islamic supremacist terrorists.
There's a "fool" wandering around here alright...and that gullible buffoon hails from frisco.
Well, well. It looks like it didn’t take long for the Hamas Propaganda Ministries to send out their blundering footsoldiers Crack and ocean to the scene. Crack-of-the-Butt actually trots out John McWhorter to insinuate that Jews excessively present themselves as victims. That’s rich coming from a partisan of Palestinianism like Crack. McWhorter doesn’t oppose Israel’s existence, right to self-defense or Jewish land-purchasing rights as Crack does. He’s definitely not part of the Cult of Campus Wokism that infected the minds of young university radicals that Crack subscribes to, part of a well-funded intellectual invasion of the Hamas-sheltering Qatari government.
Woke is a cult that Crack has been indoctrinated into quite completely. What’s it like to only have entitled children under age 30 who agree with you, Mr Macho? What’s it like to be a poseur “Macho Man” who falls for cult after cult, this one the cult of woke? And the cult for what you might as well call ”Jihadis for Justice?” What a joke.
I’m sure if they had their way they would call themselves jihadis against genocide, as if there were such a thing. LOL!
For ocean’s part, he calls citizens of a state declared and recognized 75 years ago as “settlers,” which is his code for slaughtering them - whether Jewish, Muslim, Bedouin, whatever. He’s bought into the woke crap view on this as well.
Israel’s war against Hamas is not and does not have to be a test of courage. This is not for show. It’s not Festivus with its “feats of strength.” They fight on the ground, from the air, whatever achieves the military aim and they owe no compromise to their own security or survival just to satisfy a guy stupid enough to believe that Hamas’ definition of a civilian or child is an honest one. Israel’s probably killed at least one Hamas operative/jihadi to every 2 who stayed in place just to shield them.
In any event it’s way less than the HALF MILLION that Syria’s Assad has killed. But the jihadi death cult that you two either identify with or fear didn’t want that context because Syria has no Jews to represent or lead its government - having expelled them all decades ago. Which must fit well with Crack’s insistence that they had no right to live or purchase land in the Middle East.
Crack: I have done nothing to deserve having nails driven into my uterus, gang raped while being stabbed in the back, having my breasts cut off and kicked around like a soccer ball as men penetrate me, having my fingernails pulled out as my genitals are.stabbed, or being shot in the vagina as my assailants laugh and celebrate, chant and take videos of violating me, and are praised by their religious leaders for doing so.
This isn't war: it is terrorism and hatred of Jews and hatred of women, though men were raped too and must be respected equally in their suffering.
I also refuse to view the spread of slavery of women and girls under Hamas and Islam as any type of cause to support. Nor, of all people, should you. I respect and even understand what you went through growing up. But how can you defend people who continue to enslave "their" women and delight in the most vile forms of sexual degradation and torture?
A few weeks ago, I watched hundreds of idiotic college students, carefully trained by professional terrorists, dancing and singing and shouting for the destruction of Israel. They were gleeful cheering for the rapes and tortures in Israel, gleeful in cheering for the destruction of Israel. Their joy is fascism.
Crack probably understands McWhorter as well as he understands Einstein.
It’s really quite hilarious. He has become the Joke of the Woke. He should ask the young entitled campus kidz of America how they feel about what a Macho Man he is.
Crack is about as macho as Randy Savage.
And he’s as inept as the WWE in figuring out how media and information work. This is a guy who, just two weeks ago, linked to an October 9th LA Times piece about how Hamas’ mass rapes were still being verified, at that time - as if that meant these were contentious claims in December two months later! He cannot even read timestamps on his own news clippings.
Yes, much better to get one’s information from “progressive” children indoctrinated into the Cult of the Woke funded by billions in Qatari-Hamas money sent directly to American “Middle East Studies” departments on left-wing radical campuses. This is a level of fool too easily manipulated for even Mr. T to pity.
Mr. T don’t pity the fool who buy into woke college radical campus-cult Hamas propaganda. Go find other sources to support your opposition to Jews purchasing land or living freely in the Middle East, Mr Macho Man Randy Crack Savage.
As predicted: Israeli reporters being treated like pariahs in Qatar.
Hamas 7th Century Death Cult Fanboy Li'l Crack-y: "Please: Killing 21,000 people marks a clear difference."
This Just In: Britain and the US killed more civilians in Germany than Germany killed in Britain and the US.
Thus, by Li'l Crack-y calculus (LOL-I used "Li'l Crack-y" and "calculus" in the same sentence!) Hitler's Germany has the moral upper hand over the US and Uk.
And lets not even get started on how Hamas' death number lies are just that.
Ampersand: there is a nationwide "peaceful" protest planned for January 18 by a massive number of anti-Israeli, anti-police, and anti capitalism groups, many national or international, to "commemorate" the anniversary of the shooting of Venezuelan eco-terrorist Manuel Teran, or "Tortiguita."
The alliance of commies with jihadi Islamic Supremacists has been a part of this problem for decades. The Soviets would have supported Israel if they’d allied themselves with Stalin, but they said no. From there the Soviets basically made Arab attempts to eliminate Israel part of their proxy efforts in the communists’ Cold War.
A form of this continued with the Iranian Islamic Revolution. Iran up until that time had a parliament which included communist parties, and these dumbasses were stupid enough to welcome the Ayatollah (Crack’s newest friend) with open arms. Of course to the jihadis, communists were nothing more than the most useful of idiots, whom they proceeded to kill off after taking the power that they helped them achieve.
Today’s Islamic Supremacists will also do that to the idiotic western progressives, I have no doubt.
The Iranian government behind this newest attempt to achieve Crack’s wet dream of killing all “ZIonists” is actually one of the best advertisements against itself, if you can get the a hold of Iranian nationals and ex-Muslims either from Iran or elsewhere. They are not hard to find online. Even the Iranian population have become some of the strongest in the region in their support of Israel.
Crack doesn’t have a clue to any of the actual issues. He’s an easily duped serial reposter who can’t devote a single thought or neuron to the very rich reality of what’s taking place underneath the slogans and emotions. His knowledge of the Middle East is a half-inch deep. Less, if you count all the things that he gets back-asswards. Crack-asswards. Lol.
Al Jazeera (of Qatar) has the most comprehensive Middle East coverage in the world.
And here we go! As if on cue, Crack-Asswards endorses the propaganda of the only government in the Arab world to shelter, fund and support Hamas! The rest of the region knows Hamas/Iran is what destabilizes the Middle East. Hamas has is led by three billionaires who run Gaza and the jihad against Israel from luxury hotels in Doha! Crack-asswards should ask them what they think of civilian casualties, mass rapes and stolen humanitarian aid in Gaza but he’s too busy feasting on their propaganda! What a clear admission of how his personal infotainment ecosystem works.
Ismail Haniyeh: $4,000,000,000.
Abu Marzuk: $3,000,000,000.
Khaled Mashaal: $4,000,000,000.
These are the net worths of Hamas top political leadership, who have no personal stake in the organization’s war and encourage their own commanders on the ground to steal humanitarian aid literally right off the trucks. But Crack finds the bloodshed they force upon the populations to be virtuous.
https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/
Democracy Now! is the best in the US.
Democracy Now! has such hatred of Israel that they literally think strip-searching surrendered/captured Hamas operatives to be a more newsworthy exploration of humanitarian concern than anything they can find to report on Hamas’ own actions. If that’s how skewed a perspective you need to feel informed then it’s clear that information means much less to you than your fetish for war porn and need to demonize sane societies.
Zionists being allowed to chase Palestinians off their land because hypocritical western anti-semite nations, including the US, didn't want them either.
When did any “chasing” occur?
Oh, that’s right. Jews purchasing land prior to the 1948 invasion of Israel you consider to be immoral and wrong. You say it’s a “betrayal of Judaism” for Jews to have purchased land… at least there. Elsewhere as well?
Why not just post a big map of the Middle East with a giant RED LINE around Israel? Since when did you become such a fan of redlining? When it formed the basis of your opposition to Zionism?
Any other populations you’re in favor of redlining or just Jews pre-1948?
What an inflated sense of self you must have to think that you should have such a power. No wonder your love life sucks.
How many times must it be said they can't win this war? It's unwinnable. It's a political problem,
So was Nazism.
not a military one. That's why Israel's losing by killing.
Once Hamas loses militarily, the de-Nazification/de-Hamasification of Gaza can proceed.
This war was already fought about 5 times in the 18 years since Gaza killed off its Palestinian opponents and instilled an Arabian North Korean-style state in that stretch of land. Israel fought it to the stalemate that even the “International Community” was happy to denounce each time in the past. This time they’re done. Hamas got more than it wanted. From now on the textbooks and schools advocating violent replacement of Israel with will be removed and the corrupt barbarians running Gaza will be jailed so that harmless bureaucrats can take over. Running a government of such a small place is not hard once you get your priorities straight. Violent jihadi Islamic supremacism in Palestine won’t be one of those, and neither will be stifling businesses and civilians so that water pipes could be dug up and repurposed into mortars. Try not to cry too much over that.
hpudding: "The Iranian government behind this newest attempt to achieve Crack’s wet dream of killing all “ZIonists” is actually one of the best advertisements against itself, if you can get the a hold of Iranian nationals and ex-Muslims either from Iran or elsewhere. They are not hard to find online. Even the Iranian population have become some of the strongest in the region in their support of Israel."
This is one of the most under-reported stories of the Middle East for several years now: the unwillingness of the Iranian people to go along with the anti-Israel/anti-west hatred pushed by Li'l Crack-y's islamic supremacist fascist "heroes" in Tehran.
You can find videos online as well as testimonials in many X Spaces by Iranians that speak to this.
The Ayatollahs and their minions paint Israeli and US flags on the ground and the Iranian people refuse to step on them and walk around instead.
This is in addition to the Sunni Gulf states that despise Li'l Crack-y's 7th Century Death Cult murderers and continue to work behind the scenes with their Israeli partners to advance and improve conditions in their part of the ME.
Meanwhile, Li'l Crack-y's murderous pals want to drag the entire ME back to the 7th Century.
And Li'l Crack-y thinks that's just fine.
The good news here? As with everything else, ALL the masks are off now and transparency is a very good thing.
Al-Nakba: The Palestinian catastrophe - Episode 1:
Watch how the Zionists used white people to put a mark on the Palestinians, and their land, that no one will wash off.
Tina Trent said...
"Crack: I have done nothing to deserve having nails driven into my uterus,...."
And I've still seen no direct evidence that even happened. Sorry but I still have an Oct 6 view of the media, with their 51 signers of a letter stating Hunter's laptop was "Russian disinformation," and hiding evidence about Derek Chauvin, so - until you show me even one rape victim - I can "never forget" what I haven't seen.
"This isn't war: it is terrorism and hatred of Jews and hatred of women,...."
You guys just spout this rhetoric and expect everyone to get as freaked out by it as you are. Show me the evidence or cut it out. And whatever you do, get a grip on yourself. Sheesh.
"I also refuse to view the spread of slavery of women and girls under Hamas and Islam as any type of cause to support."
I don't support such things either. But what that has to do with Zionists committing a huge crime against them must be explained. Their backwards beliefs don't mean you get to abuse them. That makes you backwards, too.
"A few weeks ago, I watched hundreds of idiotic college students, carefully trained by professional terrorists, dancing and singing and shouting for the destruction of Israel."
More stupid rhetoric. You saw kids who actually studied history, and it scared you, because you never did: you bought a lie about "a land without a people for a people without a land" and - even knowing it's a lie - you're willing to kill every Palestinian to protect it. Like the Nazis, now it's you who need living space, and look down on others as subhuman "animals."
You learned their lessons well.
LOL
Li'l Crack-y has fallen for the "Nabka" lies as well!
Because of course he has!
Hilarious.
The Hamas arm of the Muslim Brotherhood is involved in a real estate dispute with Israeli Jews. There is no terrorist jihad. Just ask No Rapes Crack. /sarc.
Meanwhile, in Nigeria, 52,000 Christians have been murdered by Muslims since 2009. Since nobody noticed, there is no Islamist Jihad./sarc.
Besides, Jews aren't doing the killing in Nigeria, so nobody is hurt, just like Syria. Right, Crack? rcocean? /sarc.
Good God you people are pathetic. Present your side and leave Crack alone. His reflexive support of the underdog given his past experience is understandable. There's no need to resort to schoolyard taunts. He is not going to change his mind on this. There's always going to be media sources that will support any particular bias. Refute them and move on. If he refuses to accept reality on the ground that is his problem. Calling him lil' Cracky just makes him dig in deeper.
…no one will wash off.
Lol, really. Is it like a mark of Cain? A multi-generational blood libel? A decide charge against Jews and their descendants like the kind Mel Gibson put in his movie and believes in? Just like Hamas believes in until the final Islamic end-times battle after which they reign supreme and cleanse the world of non-believers?
That’s been agitated for since the Medinan “prophecies” of your leader ended in 632 AD.
Just go ahead and join Louis Farrakhan’s movement already. No need to pretend in legitimizing it from the propaganda/media outlet of a country sheltering the $11 billion fortunes of three Arabian white men using you in a struggle to Islamicize Israel through bloody violent jihad.
Slavery remains legal under Islamic sharia law and selectively practiced against black Africans along with the genocide the janjaweed militias are perpetrating among the Fur, Masalit and Zaghawa now fleeing to Chad - after 200,000 of them were murdered this year. Those 180,000 who fled you can properly call “ethnically cleansed.”
As long as you’ve made jihad your cause why not pledge your allegiance to Farrakhan instead of some random Palestinian Arab billionaires who just make slaves out of black men? That slavery was especially brutal given the castration they enacted on the men and the sex slaves they made of the women. And it’s hard to tell everyone how “macho” you are once you’ve been castrated.
Hey, at least you wouldn’t be shot in the genitals and mutilated further like they did to the Jews, right Crack?
Crack: I trust you. And no, I'm not trying to do some brain-screw New Age fetishization of a black man. And no, I see the side you have taken, and that there are points to be made for both sides.
But the slavery of women under Islam is a ... roadblock for me.
Sometimes keeping talking is all that we can do from here.
This is like the excellent series Homeland coming to life. Only, the season that should have been made after the last one.
By the way, for some reason of my computer idiocy, I just blew my email cover here and I don't know why. Maybve I just need a shoe phone like Get Smart. My email remains tinatrent1@gmail.com. Whatever. I've always found that total honesty, and drop-waist dresses, are the best method for infiltrating terrorist groups. It challenges the stragglers.
Still no tears for the Syrian civilians killed by Russian mercenaries? Sad. 300,000 is a huge number. Bigger than your tiny Gaza figure. I was hoping you had a heart.
Probably too late to make much sense getting into this here, so I will elsewhere also once Ann posts something relevant to it. But in any case, I once before recommended some reading for those who labor under the absurd illusion that the Israelis "took the land from the Palestinians who had lived there for a thousand years." Among the infinite amount of scholarship exposing the absurdity of this simplification, I do recommend Benny Morris, "1948: The First Arab-Israeli War," 2008. Why this one? Because Morris was the leading Israeli "New Historian" of the 1990s, a group that developed accounts of the founding of Israel much less laudatory of Israel than previous accounts. Some, Ian Pappe especially, went way overboard in their dislike of Israeli policy, but Morris was I believe seen as the pre-eminent scholar among them.
However, in the early 2000s, Morris revised his views substantially. "1948" is therefore a highly balanced view of that history. Jews of Israel warts and all. However, it also makes it clear that to say the Jews drove the Arabs off their lands in some "Nakba" is a ridiculous simplification of what was a very messy process, not due to any overall Israeli transfer policy, a process that occurred ONLY during horrible wartime conditions imposed on the Jews by the five Arab nations that attacked it on day one of its independence. The Arabs were all along totally anti-Zionist and their leadership such as it was deeply antisemitic -- and they were all their own worst enemies in slapping away the hand the Israelis held out to them encouraging them to accept the UN's two-state solution, one of many two-state solutions to come that in fact Israel has always accepted and the Arab Palestinians actually have never accepted. I recommend "1948" highly.
But what that has to do with Zionists committing a huge crime against them must be explained.
Just to be clear, when Crackster says “committing a huge crime” he means, “Jews bought land in the Ottoman Empire and British Mandate” and “they defended it from invasion by five armies after being told under international law (UN recognition) they could govern themselves there.” No matter how many Qatari/Hamas videos or other propaganda he links to that’s still the Palestinian argument that he’s, well, appropriated.
Their backwards beliefs don't mean you get to abuse them.
Every time you smear Jews/Israelis/Zionists of “committing a huge crime” that’s exactly the backwards belief you’re ascribing to: That their purchase and defense of lands deemed to be Islamically purified of infidel rule was “wrong.” You basically endorse a Mohammedan version of redlining.
That makes you backwards, too.
Oh, the irony. See above. It’s their backwards belief that Jewish self-determination or government violates Islamic supremacy that you’ve endorsed and remains the central plank in your hatred of Israel. Only an illiterate can’t see it. Stop lying.
Present your side and leave Crack alone.
Lol. What is this… Leave Brittany alone!?
It’s not that he has a side or a rational mind to be made up on with any of this. He just has a very emotional angle and refuses to see that he’s being duped by the same people and ideology that has been enslaving non-Arab Muslims and enacting concubinage for centuries and into the present day. To pretend that people who would believe in and carry out such things are presenting an honest case to Crackles is astounding. He can believe them if he wants, but there is no reason to have any respect for willing participants in the practice of taqiyyah and the downfall of Western civilization than the people who came up with these methods and goals.
Taqiyyah. A concept I learned about in a (supposedly objective) class about Islam taught on a college campus, before the government of Qatar that funds and shelters Hamas took over Near Eastern studies departments completely.
When Crack stops his selective propaganda then maybe there will be a reason to deal with him as an adult.
Some, Ian Pappe especially, went way overboard in their dislike of Israeli policy, but Morris was I believe seen as the pre-eminent scholar among them.
Exactly.
Ilan Pappe is a communist. An actual, real-life commie. He ran in the 1999 Knesset elections as 7th on a commie party list.
He supports BDSM - whoops, I mean “BDS”. (Interesting the similarity in those two acronyms….) and if I’m not mistaken currently lives in London.
Nationalism has its excesses. Communism however is a stupid alternative. And so is the Islamism that defines the Palestinian national movement he supports by default as the demographically more “intensified” politics that would replace Israel in his “one-state solution.” (See Lebanon 1980 for details).
Benny Morris understands that historical study and whatever rights or wrongs it reveals is not a good reason to turn your country into the next Lebanon. He knows that he shouldn’t warp his findings by a political desire to do something so stupid as that.
Personally I think they’re all cults: Communism, Palestinian Islamism, and apparently woke progressivism. Saying that any of them should replace Zionism is like saying communism should replace nationalism. Actually, it’s exactly the same. Only in this case the Soviets are Hamas and the Islamic Republic of Iran required for Hamas to exist. The same Iran that has no purpose in the region than to support the Hizbullah, Houthi and Syrian regimes providing the base of basically all instability in the Arab Middle East. Why? To show those Sunni Arab Muslims they hate so much that Mohammed’s nephew should have been the caliph 13 centuries ago and not a council! And they’ll prove it by destroying Israel, too!
Go show them, Iran!
This is the cause into which Crack has been incorporated.
pacwest: "Good God you people are pathetic. Present your side and leave Crack alone. His reflexive support of the underdog given his past experience is understandable."
I dont believe I will leave this Hamas terrorism apologist/history re-writing welp alone. His laughing at and accusing the Israeli victims of terror of lying is quite beyond the pale for me.
So take your demands for me to leave the field clear for Li'l Crack-y's BS to run free and unchallenged and stick it where it might do the most good for you.
And to call Hamas, part of the globally well funded Iranian backed terrorist movement, with much more demented global PR support from our corrupted media as well as from the Jew-hating UN, the "underdog"...well.
Lets just say I find your "analysis" of this situation...lacking.
So you do your thing, which apparently includes wanting Crack-y to go unchallenged when he claims the Israeli hostages experienced the equivalent of a "yoga class", and I'll do my thing.
You are, of course, free to continue weeping for the moron calling for the destruction of Israel.
hpudding: "Just to be clear, when Crackster says “committing a huge crime” he means, “Jews bought land in the Ottoman Empire and British Mandate” and “they defended it from invasion by five armies after being told under international law (UN recognition) they could govern themselves there.” No matter how many Qatari/Hamas videos or other propaganda he links to that’s still the Palestinian argument that he’s, well, appropriated."
Yikes!
Be careful. Educating Crack-y on the actual facts in the ME makes pacwest very, very, upset.
Things that dont, apparently, make pacwest upset: Crack-y calling rape and torture victims liars.
Gee, I guess I'm just old school when it comes to that stuff.
pacwest: "Calling him lil' Cracky just makes him dig in deeper."
Tough tiddly-winks.
pacwesr: "Good God you people are pathetic. Present your side and leave Crack alone. His reflexive support of the underdog given his past experience is understandable."
No Rapes Crack floods each of the Israel/Palestine threads with his terrorist denying, Jew hating bullshit. He is a modern embodiment of a Holocaust denier to whom evidence, including videos, witness statements and admissions by the terrorists, means nothing.
"Support of the underdog?" No. He supports monstrous Islamist terrorism perpetrated at the behest of billionaire members of the Muslim Brotherhood. There are 7 million Israeli Jews surrounded by 475 million Arabs, mostly Muslims, whose rhetoric and holy books call for exterminating Jews. Islamists, encouraged by worldwide antisemitism are waging a war of attrition against Israelis.
The bigotry he bleats against Israeli Jews and his critics here ought never to go unanswered. Nor should that of rcocean.
you bought a lie about "a land without a people for a people without a land"…
Hmmm. How about a land without many people for a people without a land? Are you even aware that the population historically was less than a quarter million for centuries, not even rising to half a million until the “EVIL ZIONISTS” (Jews) started purchasing more land by 1890? Presently there are 10 million Israelis and 5 million WB/Gaza residents, or a combined population of 15 million. About 60 times as many people as lived there before “EVIL ZIONISTS” (Jews) dared raise their population from 10% of the total to whatever it grew to.
And the best part is that you can see how empty and deserted it was even in 1865. Thankfully photography was an available technology at the time. Google “Jerusalem then vs. today” to see the difference. How horrible that people whom you think should be redlined from purchasing land developed and grew an actual country like that, instead of leaving it a barren, deserted backwater for the nomads and Bedouin and occasionally settled Arabs from that land as well as surrounding lands to continue keeping wonderfully unused and Islamically “pure.”
https://www.gilai.com/product_1030/Jerusalem-from-the-North-East-circa-1865
you're willing to kill every Palestinian to protect it.
Just the ones working for or as a part of The Islamic Resistance Movement - while actively planning or carrying out acts of violence. I thought you said they were a small minority?
Like the Nazis, now it's you who need living space,
It’s not Israelis complaining about living in “an open air prison,” in which there is supposedly not enough room to breathe without conquering the lebensraum of their neighbor on October 7th. Hitler coveted Ukraine’s rich farmlands just as Gazans were told that the fields in surrounding Israel were their patrimony to plow, once they finished raping and pillaging and mutilating and “martyring” themselves in the process.
and look down on others as subhuman "animals."
Gunshot wounds to women’s reproductive organs and you think it’s all part of an elaborate lie, as if respect for the dead before all the forensics are complete was just something to dupe you. Do you also think rape accusations should require 4 male witnesses?
Even animals aren’t as warped as that.
You would have made a good concubine for ISIS. What a great 2024 it will be to not have cult-apologist lunatics like you in charge!
Go argue for the downfall of another civilization. Oh right, there isn’t one. Even Africa is being torn to shreds by people with, as you call jihadis, “backwards beliefs.”
So I guess that leaves China, Russia or the Middle East as (technically) viable destinations that identify with your worldview.
hombre said...
"Meanwhile, in Nigeria, 52,000 Christians have been murdered by Muslims since 2009. Since nobody noticed, there is no Islamist Jihad./sarc."
They need some paragliders.
pacwest said...
"He is not going to change his mind on this" without evidence.
Tina Trent said...
"Crack: I trust you."
I hope so - I wanna trust you, too. I'm still watching this doc on the Nakba. Part II is worse than Part I, unfortunately.
pacwest said...
"Good God you people are pathetic."
Yes they are.
"Present your side and leave Crack alone."
They don't know hoe to do that: this is how they make themselves attractive to win blacks to the GOP.
"His reflexive support of the underdog given his past experience is understandable."
What "reflexive support"? I have documented my every thought - and the evidence that informed it - from Oct 7. If anything, reflexively defending Israel - and dismissing or ignoring evidence against her - is y'all's problem.
"There's no need to resort to schoolyard taunts."
There is when that's all you got.
"He is not going to change his mind on this. "
Since Oct 7, you guys have gone back on everything you claimed to believe - Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald said so - but you got me on trial. Me. The guy who live blogged the Derek Chauvin video, here, and CHANGED MY MIND BASED ON THE EVIDENCE. Where's proof you guys can do that? I've never seen it.
"There's always going to be media sources that will support any particular bias."
That's the Get Out Of Jail Free card you're holding, is it? No amount of evidence will affect you because there's always more? What bullshit.
"Refute them and move on."
They can't, that's why they call names.
"If he refuses to accept reality on the ground that is his problem."
I can see the word "evidence" means nothing to y'all. You just expect everyone to see it your way or they're wrong.
"Calling him lil' Cracky just makes him dig in deeper."
The longer I ignore Drago and hpudding the more hyper they get. It's fun.
No, just ignore the sob. Or just call him names if you want, but it won't do jack any more than telling why why reparations are an idiotic idea. Yes, Hamas is a arm of Iran and just like the Mullahs should be erased from the face of the Earth, but you guys just go over the same old shit 20 times per thread. But if think you're making any headway with him you're wrong. What is the point??
However, it also makes it clear that to say the Jews drove the Arabs off their lands in some "Nakba" is a ridiculous simplification of what was a very messy process.
In addition to Morris, another Israeli academic highly worth listening to is Mordecai Kedar. One of the things he explained is that the etymology of the word “nakba” itself was originally a reference to the failure of Arab nationalism - or wataniyya. It was later decided that this failure of Arab nationalism was best exemplified by its failure to drive Israel out of existence in 1948, despite the unified attempt of five Arab armies collectively to do so. And hence the meaning changed to apply to that episode.
I haven’t read Morris’ works in full or even in much part, but from what other Israelis say the majority of Palestinian refugees decided to get out of Dodge either at the behest of their own leadership, the calls from the Arab armies, or fear (either during the war or events leading up to it). I’ve heard that the total number of Palestinians “expelled” was as low as 100,000, usually from villages that decided to take up arms against the Haganah. So actual partisans. Go figure.
Upon hearing of the impending flight of Haifa’s Arabs Moshe Sharrett dispatched Golda Meir herself to the city to persuade them not to leave, but it was too late.
The other thing Kedar and others will tell you is how Palestinian surnames reveal their non-native origin. One of the largest Arab families in the Galilee is “Bushnak.” Of course this means “Bosniak,” which is reflected in the Palestinian genome. Others include Masri (Egyptian), “Kurdi” (Iraqi), and so on.
Among the armies fighting against Israel’s independence in 1948 was the “Arab Liberation Army” led by Fawzi Qawukji. Previously loyal to the Nazis, his army’s emblem simply depicted a curved dagger being stabbed through a Jewish star. Sophisticated people, these.
Be careful. Educating Crack-y on the actual facts in the ME makes pacwest very, very, upset.
No, what upsets me is when it turns into a
Jr High food fight. I come to this site to read the the various takes on things because there a lot of intelligent people commenting. You not the least among them Drago. Remember Chuck's stated goal of ruining the Althouse blog for others? This kind of crap does more to that end than Chuck ever did. It's pretty obvious Crack is clinging to his own oppressed minority status by backing Hamas. You're beating a dead horse.
pacwest said...
"It's pretty obvious Crack is clinging to his own oppressed minority status by backing Hamas. You're beating a dead horse."
Pop psychology is so stupid. None of you directly challenge anything - you've even dropped the concept of "evidence" to substantiate claims - then use that as proof I'm hard-headed. And antisemitic. And stupid. And gullible. I'm too dumb to grasp Iran's role with Hamas, even after serving in the Red Sea with the US Navy during the Iranian Hostage Crisis. I have no idea what any of these groups are really like. It's all too big for me to understand because I'm trapped in a black victim /slave mindset. Only you smart free white people can grasp geopolitics - and how I reason. You know me - through the computer no less - better than I know myself. You think you should reason for me because, left to my own devices, nothing can get through. And there's absolutely nothing racist about thinking like that.
Y'all may sound like white men in 1865, but that's pure 2024 talking right there.
Well, this is about slavery on the one side -- and lynching on the other -- of women. In fact, the similarities are eerie. Right down to the mutilation of genitals and celebration and commemoration of the lynching on cellphones, and severing body parts as human trophies. And there's plenty of evidence. So, if you defend that, you run the risk of being the new Black Klansman. But there's one already, Ron Stallworth, so be careful to not run into copyright complications. He's pretty intent on retaining the title for financial purposes.
My comment was left out here, too.
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