A former Vatican ambassador to Washington said Sunday that he told Pope Francis in 2013 about allegations of sexual abuse against [Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, the former archbishop of Washington D.C.] – and that Francis took no action. Now, the former official, Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, is calling for Francis to step down....From Vigano's letter:
Vigano writes that he told Francis about the allegations: "Holy Father, I don't know if you know Cardinal McCarrick, but if you ask the Congregation for Bishops there is a dossier this thick about him. He corrupted generations of seminarians and priests and Pope Benedict ordered him to withdraw to a life of prayer and penance."
Vigano writes the pope did not respond to the statement, and McCarrick continued in his role as a public figure for the church.
"Pope Francis has repeatedly asked for total transparency in the Church... He must honestly state when he first learned about the crimes committed by McCarrick, who abused his authority with seminarians and priests. In any case, the Pope learned about it from me on June 23, 2013 and continued to cover him....To restore the beauty of holiness to the face of the Bride of Christ...
"To restore the beauty of holiness to the face of the Bride of Christ — so tremendously disfigured by so many abominable crimes, if we truly want to free the Church from the fetid swamp into which she has fallen, we must have the courage to tear down the culture of secrecy and publicly confess the truths that we have kept hidden."
Let me talk for a moment about the metaphor. The Church is visualized as a woman, a woman worthy of marrying Jesus Christ, but she's fallen into a swamp — a "fetid swamp" — and her face is now insufficiently beautiful. The priestly abuses are all, necessarily, the evils of men. But the identity of a woman is assumed for the purposes of, it seems, aspiring to beauty, holiness, cleanliness.
It's an old metaphor:
The ekklēsia is never explicitly called "the bride of Christ" in the New Testament. That is approached in Ephesians 5:22-33. A major analogy is that of the body. Just as husband and wife are to be "one flesh",[Eph. 5:31] this analogy for the writer describes the relationship of Christ and ekklēsia.[Eph. 5:32] Husbands were exhorted to love their wives "just as Christ loved the ekklēsia and gave himself for it.[Eph. 5:25]...
In writing to the Church of Corinth in 2 Corinthians 11... Paul referred to the Church in Corinth as being espoused to Christ. "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ...".
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183 comments:
#MeQuoque
They're not called seminarians for nothing.
The Church is the husband of Christ.
No. They should pull the whole "church" down and stop pretending men in dresses know something, the rest of us don't, beyond fashion.
Your crackpot "beliefs" aren't worth your kids.
In any organization, managers manage for the benefit of managers, not the organization.
It's not corruption, just structural incentives. Christ should have thought of that when he founded the church.
So now this guy is making his move.
I've lost track of how many popes there are now. Is the old guy still around?
Having two ex-popes in robes wandering the Vatican would be good. The place would be haunted.
A penny for Garry Wills' thoughts. I think I'll reread "Why Priests? A Failed Tradition."
Should Pope Francis resign? Why? Everyone knows this problem was confined to Pennsylvania.
Isn't the Pope infallible?
He should resign for other reasons--he was a Marxist that kept that fact hidden because he guessed that Rome would eventually pander to Latin American Catholics.
Isn't the Pope infallible?
In matters of Faith and morals, when speaking ex cathedra.
Pope Benedict ordered McCarrick to step down and he didn’t? That’s insubordination. He should be fired.
The Pope should start tweeting.
"Crazy Carlo says I should resign. He just doesn't get it. Sad!"
Catholics may not appreciate comments from the peanut gallery, but I think the hierarchy needs to get serious about this problem or they will wind up without a laity.
Just words and hand wringing for the cameras are not going to do it. They need to come down on the priests who prey on the parishioners' children good and hard in ways that will mean something to Catholics.
"In matters of Faith and morals, when speaking ex cathedra."
But not regarding personnel decisions?
The "bride of Christ" imagery goes all the way back to Jewish marriage customs which would have been well known to Jesus. Marriage in that era were arranged, but the couple involved actually had some say in the matter at the time of betrothal. Most pertinent here is that the young man would offer to the young woman a cup of wine, and would say these words:
Behold the cup of the new Covenant, given for you.
If the young woman drank of that cup, the betrothal was confirmed and the marriage preparations began. This is the very language Jesus used when offering the cup of wine at the Last Supper, though he added "Behold my blood in the cup ...". This betrothal is used to this day in the Church, and almost every Sunday in the liturgical churches like Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and many Lutherans.
I remember hearing the murmurings of staff and several clergy when Francis was selected. He was not a popular pick for some of the more conservative members of the Church. In particular, there seemed to be a great deal of kicking around his Jesuit roots.
The liberal left love Francis; he seems their best bet to "drag" the Church into the current century re:gays, birth control, abortion, women in leadership. And since this isn't abuse of women by men, #metoo shrugs.
Should he resign? Well, he may not need to. The Saint Malachy prophecy indicates that Francis would be the "Peter" upon whom the Rock would be destroyed. And the Apocalypse begins...
There are three things God does not know -- How many orders of nuns there are; What a Dominican is thinking: and What a Jesuit will do next.
Oldie, but a goodie.
There does need to be some very public sack cloth and ashes. Don’t expect him to do anything that actually involves his own suffering, though. He only does photo ops. Personally, I think the bishops need to open up their records to the public in each diocese and prepare themselves to suffer the consequences. If they covered things up, then they should resign. The problem is, this behavior is world wide, it isn’t just the US. The cardinals also need to be held accountable, but I’m not sure how that happens unless the Pope gets serious about the problem. This pope isn’t serious about it. In South America recently it took a revolt by the laity to get him to change his mind about promoting a pederast enabler.
He is the anti-Pope, installed in a coup supported by Obama & Clinton.
Elizabeth Scalia at theanchoress.com has a number of good posts on this issue.
"Sack cloth and ashes" is not going to do it. The culprits at a minimum needs to be forcefully and publicly tried in ecclesiastical court and kicked out of the priesthood in no uncertain terms when convicted. Possibly also forever denied communion, etc. Punishments that mean something to Catholics.
exhelodrvr1 said...
"Elizabeth Scalia at theanchoress.com has a number of good posts on this issue."
Unless someone's touched your kid, I don't think there's much anyone can say on this issue, except you're all sick to keep it going.
If you are not sufficiently pro-life, the pedophile protectors deny you Communion.
There is a reason why nearly everyone in my Catholic grade school class is no longer Catholic.
Thankfully we were 4 when the Madison Diocese transferred and then kept transferring and hiding the priest who abused the altar boys. Took over 20 years for him to be removed from such opportunities and defrocked.
That lesson was not missed by the younger generation, who have walked away en masse.
I don't think there's anything that can be done to bring us back. Certainly not with Bishop Morlino and his culture war at the helm locally.
I would suggest to those interested about this topic, read Ann Barnhardt's blog archives. She doesn't mince words. I am not a catholic but if I were, I would want to see a purge of all those who are corrupt. The world would be a better place with a Catholic church led by those who really believed their church's teachings and lived a life that was rooted in it. I don't know the proper Catholic terminology so I'm struggling to express my thoughts but I hope truth and goodness wins and the Church is restored.
Yes he should. Benedict had sanctioned McCarrick and Francis repealed those sanctions and made him a close advisor. He has also promoted other far left bishops. He's ignored and covered up the abuse as well as ignored the rampant homosexual behavior going on under his nose. Not to mention calling the victims liars (in yet another case in S. America, which he has had to walk back)..
It wasn't that long ago that another gay orgy was broken up near the Vatican. Attendees being priests and Vatican staff - one being secretary to Francis' close advisor. It was headlined in Italian newspapers. And the Lavender Mafia laughs. (I don't recall his name at the moment, but one of them, a bishop, wrote about how they were able to get their guy, Francis, instilled as pope, to promote their 'progressive' agenda)
@Bart Hall "Most pertinent here is that the young man would offer to the young woman a cup of wine, and would say these words: Behold the cup of the new Covenant, given for you."
Where are you getting this from? I've never heard of it from the Jewish side.
Bergoglio was an incredibly popular Pope among the secularists and the atheists. That's bad. That means there's something very very wrong with the Pope
Mark, the vast majority of those abused, were male and had already gone through puberty. A friend of mine, who is still Catholic, went to a Jesuit high school. Quite a few of his classmates were molested by a couple of the Jesuit 'priests'. My husband went to a Marianist high school. Only one priest, that he knows of, was defrocked and prosecuted for molestation.
I'd say it isn't a 'pedo' problem the Church has.
The "bride of Christ" imagery goes all the way back to Jewish marriage customs which would have been well known to Jesus.
The spousal imagery goes back further, deep into the Old Testament, where the Lord and His people are referred to in marital terms.
-- the original Mark
The church and the Pope was an arranged marriage.
There is a reason why nearly everyone in my Catholic grade school class is no longer Catholic.
Very likely because you were poorly catechized and there was quite possibly also a squish approach to the faith. To be sure, beyond ignorance, the bad example of human members of the Church did not help -- and leading others away from truth and faith in this way (called scandal) is one of the most gravest of evils -- but even then, there is an element of choice in a person deciding to leave.
Annie, the local kid at my parish was 13.
That is pedophilia, not homosexuality.
You can try to blame gays all you want, but none of my gay friends are interested in children, just like none of my hetero friends are either.
The problem is not sexuality. The problem is pedophilia, abuse of power, and hiding pedo priests. By continuing to stonewall and blame homosexuality, the Church is complicit.
This is a global church problem, and getting rid of one guy in Rome isn't going to fiz the whole rotten system.
But, back to the main topic -
There is already an attempt by the left/progressive types (who have been downplaying the McCarrick story because of the LBTQ implications) to portray former-nuncio Vigano as a right-wing extremist nutcase.
Vigano suggests that Francis has known of McCarrick's predilections for a long time. But it has been documented back in 2005 that the Washington Post had known about him for three-four years before that, but refused to run any stories about him.
Mark, it was a well known secret who the pedo priest was. I remember people in talking about how he was still saying mass one county over during high school (10 years and multiple accusations and parish transfers later).
You can say what you want, but when underage kids are aware they should be careful not to be alone with a priest the problem isnt teaching of the faith.
David Begley: Pope Benedict ordered McCarrick to step down and he didn’t? That’s insubordination. He should be fired.
Benedict was insubordinate to a higher power - the Lavender Mafia - so he was the one who had to step down.
For those of your who think female priests are the answer, here's my observations from the standpoint of a sub organist at mainline Protestant churches. My primary job is at a Catholic parish.
The mainline Protestant churches flipped entirely to gay worship and feminism, gay and female preachers. And they consider themselves fortunate when they draw 10 people to a Sunday service.
Those churches are now almost entirely wings of the Democratic Party. They aren't really religious. I don't know how they survive financially. Families have abandoned them. Gay worship is a culture of sexual abuse. So is feminism. That's built into both ideologies.
My small Catholic parish draws 75 to 100 people to each of its three weekend Masses. The priest actually talks about God and Jesus.
What do make of the sexual abuse stuff? I haven't a clue. Not offering this as an excuse, but I assume that this is going on in all institutions as they are invaded by gay and feminist advocacy, i.e., especially the schools.
It's a failure of chastity arising from a culture of moral relativism and permissiveness. Why guys with same-sex attractions OVERWHELMINGLY are unable to keep their pants on and live such a chaste life -- far, far, far above that of priests who have a naturally-ordered sexuality, I leave for others to connect the dots.
But even beyond conduct, anyone who self-identifies as a "gay priest" has a fundamental and disqualifying understanding of the ontological nature of the human person, much less the priesthood.
Frank Keating was on this years ago
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/frank-keating-on-the-catholic-bishops-today/
This much we (the public jury) should all be able to agree on --
Pope Francis needs to answer to these allegations. And so do some others. Vigano is not someone who can be easily dismissed. And worse for them is that they have already severely self-damaged their own reputations with mealy-mouthed, self-serving statements worthy of the slimiest politicians in recent weeks, rather than giving straightforward responses.
It dawned on me after the latest revelations that the last Pope resigned for exactly this reason.
I've been friends with priests my entire life because of my role as a Church musician.
I've never been treated badly by a priest. My priest friends are all devoted, good pastors.
Teaching feminism and gay worship in the schools is sexual abuse of children. Every school is doing this.
Inflicting the feminist and gay worship agenda of transgenderism on grade school kids, as is currently happening in schools across the country, is vicious sexual abuse that often culminates in self mutilation and drugging of kids.
Feminist and gay advocates in the schools think they're doing the work of God as they are sexually abusing kids. Catholics actually disapprove of sexual abuse and consider it a sin.
Religion stays a disappointment - yet it stays: Rapper who once declared "God made me bulletproof" shot and killed
The 'bride of Christ' is the church, not Mary.
It dawned on me after the latest revelations that the last Pope resigned for exactly this reason.
Absolutely not true.
He was showing the first signs of dementia/Alzheimer's. He knew he would soon be unable to fulfill all his duties, so he stepped aside. He believed the Church was at a critical point where they needed a strong leader to keep it on its course. The Cardinals flubbed it by pandering to identity groups, and didn't properly vet the candidates.
I predict the abuse will go on, the efforts to hide it will be redoubled. Because if they bounce Francis and replace him with a hardliner who cleans house of the gay Mafia ... the priesthood dies. No priests, no church.
"The priestly abuses are all, necessarily, the evils of men."
The evils of mostly gay men, to be more precise.
Anyway, a parallel to the @MeToo movement boomerangs again, this time against Bergoglio and the Danneels mafia.
Excuse my verbosity, but I'm going to ask a question everybody shrugs off:
What in the hell was the AIDS epidemic about?
My answer: It was proof that the "stereotype" of gay men was resoundingly true. Gay men unleashed an epidemic of global proportions on us with their stereotypical behavior.
I was in the middle of the epidemic, first in SF and later in NYC. I still don't understand how this epidemic morphed into a culture of gay worship. In fact, the urban myth is now that straight men killed all those tens of thousands of gay men. You know, those roving bands of murderous homophobes?
Gay men killed themselves with their own stereotypical behavior.
And, somehow, in some fashion I can't understand, people who are sane in most ways (like Althouse) are consumed by gay worship and are openly campaigning to faggotize all men.
Really, this shit is a nightmare. There were a lot of damned good reasons for gays to remain in the closet and, so far, I haven't seen a good reason for them to be out.
Not hard to figure out why Althouse is consumed by gay worship, is it?
Mark:
Annie, the local kid at my parish was 13.
That is pedophilia....
Attraction to adolescents isn't pedophilia. Not that quibbling about precise definitions is really to the point.
...not homosexuality. You can try to blame gays all you want, but none of my gay friends are interested in children, just like none of my hetero friends are either.
Nobody's blaming your gay friends for anything. They're blaming the homosexuals who've been running a protection racket to let other homosexuals get away with grotesque criminality. It'd be next to impossible to honestly discuss a gigantic decades-long scandal involving the abuse of adolescent boys by priests while being forbidden to mention the h-word.
The problem is not sexuality.
Yeah, sexual abuse of whatever kind has nothing whatever to do with sexuality. Mark, even pedophilia in the strict technical sense is about sexuality.
Yes, I know what you're trying to say here - that sexual orientation doesn't make one an abuser, that straight sexuality can go bad, really bad, too. Fine. But in this case we happen to be talking about homosexuality gone bad, really bad. And it's hard to talk about what we're talking about if we can't, ya know, talk about it. All fair-minded people already know that "not all X", and "not all X" is used way too often to shut down honest discussion.
You can try to blame gays all you want, but none of my gay friends are interested in children, just like none of my hetero friends are either.
The usual excuse. I spent 30 years practicing in Laguna Beach. Older gay men like boys and lying about it or pretending it isn;t true is an old dodge.
The vast majority of the priest scandals involve pubertal boys. There are or were a few true pedophiles but they are not the majority.
It is helpful to read Malachi Martin's novel about h Vatican to see what has been going on for 50 years.
"Bride of Christ — so tremendously disfigured by so many abominable crimes"
Shouldn't some supernatural force step in and do something?
No, I don't think Althouse's gay worship is about her son.
It's a facet of office politics. If you've worked in an office in a major city over the past few decades, particularly in SF or NYC, you must have noticed that single straight women ally themselves with gay men to cut the legs out from under straight men.
This was a constant in my life for 45 years, the fag hag from HR or management who gave credit for my work to a gay man or engaged with gay men in a back stabbing war of gossip against me.
My bet is that Althouse, the ultimate player of office politics, long ago allied herself with gay men as a strategy to undermine straight male competitors in the office.
"The vast majority of the priest scandals involve pubertal boys"
Yes. Better to talk about "priests" abusing "children."
Pubertal. Not every day i come across a completely unfamiliar word that is close to a word i know.
Yes. They insisted the last Pope resign for a similar scandal, and then they put in this communist. If he doesn't resign, we know it was just a coup.
The idea of celibacy in priesthood is unfounded in Scripture and, as Calvin rightly pointed out, leads to sexual depravity. Rabelais had much to say about monks, too. This is not a new phenomenon.
The Catholic Church should allow marriage by the clergy, some is already allowed.
The idea of celibacy in priesthood is unfounded in Scripture and, as Calvin rightly pointed out, leads to sexual depravity
Bullshit.
>>That is pedophilia, not homosexuality.
Open your eyes, Mark. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
The vast majority of these abuses are against young BOYS.
Boys. Not little girls. Boys.
Embrace the healing power of AND. It's pedophilia AND homosexuality.
Shouting Thomas, Angel-Dyne, and Michael K all nail it. Thanks for your insights, guys.
I remain a believing Catholic but, because of the scandals and associated outrages, I have conditionally withdrawn from the Church. Temporarily, I hope.
Catholic theology is what keeps me Catholic. Maybe my non-attendance at mass makes me a cafeteria Catholic. If that's the case, so be it -- for now.
Satan won this round. He won't win the war, however.
>>The Catholic Church should allow marriage by the clergy,
Yeah, that will fix the problem. All we have to do is let priests marry alter boys...
Ray, go sit in the corner with Mark.
"Attraction to adolescents isn't pedophilia"
Funny, when talking about Islam no one here has a problem calling Muhammed marrying an 11 year old pedophilia.
Shoutin' T:
Excuse my verbosity, but I'm going to ask a question everybody shrugs off:
What in the hell was the AIDS epidemic about?
My answer: It was proof that the "stereotype" of gay men was resoundingly true. Gay men unleashed an epidemic of global proportions on us with their stereotypical behavior.
I was in the middle of the epidemic, first in SF and later in NYC. I still don't understand how this epidemic morphed into a culture of gay worship. In fact, the urban myth is now that straight men killed all those tens of thousands of gay men. You know, those roving bands of murderous homophobes?
Gay men killed themselves with their own stereotypical behavior.
That's the simple truth of it.
Who here of a certain age doesn't remember those early days when Ronald Reagan was mass-murdering gays with Hate?
I remember first seeing those bus ads with the kissing lesbian couple and the words "kissing doesn't kill, hate does". Uh huh - it's lesbians in danger from this epidemic, and it's "kissing" we're talking about. Looked like we were all in terrible danger from the Human Intolerance Virus.
Even I (young borderline shitlib that I was in those days) began to understand that we were entering an alternative Orwellian universe of denialist bullshit so extreme that we probably wouldn't find our way out of it within my own lifetime.
Really, this shit is a nightmare. There were a lot of damned good reasons for gays to remain in the closet and, so far, I haven't seen a good reason for them to be out.
The fact that we've gone virtually overnight from fair-minded people's notions of a decent "tolerance" and "acceptance" of people "born that way", to clown world insanity (disturbed women attention-whoring their pre-adolescent children into "transgender" procedures; people losing their livelihoods for disapproving of gay marriage; aggressively masculine fetishists who "identify as women" suing to be able to flash their dicks in the girls' locker room, 38 genders, etc.) should lead any honest person to re-evaluate whether societies maintain closets for no other reasons than bigotry and ignorance.
Just to go on the record: it's a homosexual problem. It's about sex not power. And it is evil. Homosexuals and homsexuality are not not evil. Predatory homosexual priests are evil.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
The whole Catholic superstructure rests on a misreading, purposeful or not, of Scripture. Christ says, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Peter is the same root word for “rock” and suggests that this is the foundation of “the church.” This discussion takes place in the context of Christ preparing his disciples for his imminent death. Peter has just proclaimed Him the Son if God. Jesus is indeed signaling the founding of a new kind of church, not one of bureaucracy like the Sanhedrin and not top down like the Greek model, but built by people reaching people. God throughout the Bible uses people to reach other people. Jesus is telling Peterbthat he will have to carry this forward. The rest of the New Testsment is example after example of small Bible studies, home churches, being founded throughout the region, stretching up into what is not Spain and Italy. Those small, Gospel-centered churches have no admin, no permanent priestly class. They are “homeschool” style compared to the highly bureaucratized public school system, and the Catholic Church takes the bureaucracy to absurdity. There is no priestly class in the Bible, no cardinals, no international superstructure. There’s just people meeting with people to pray and study. In my opinion the whole idea of “organized religion” is incompatible with what the Apostles and Paul modeled in the Bible, what they called the church.
the last Pope resigned .... because he was too pooped to Pope.
================================================================
Imagine you head a vast organization. One you love and have devoted your life to. Then imagine you discover a deep, pervasive moral rot in the organization. The deeper you look the worse the rot and the more it reaches into the hierarchy.
If you wanted to rid the organization of the rot you would have to decapitate a substantial percentage of the officers and staff. Worse, you don't, and likely can not, be sure of whether you can identify most of the rot.
So the jig is up. Enough of the stench is reaching the shareholders.
OK, Pope, what now?
Ah the lavender mafia.
The entire Catholic Church hierarchy should resign.
“In a lengthy statement, Vigano says that Francis has known for years about Cardinal Theodore McCarrick’s sexual abuse, but brought him into the pontifical inner circle anyway, and sent him around the world on papal missions.
In fact, says Vigano, the Roman curia has known about McCarrick since the year 2000, but McCarrick was protected by gay supporters honeycombed throughout the Vatican. Pope Benedict XVI ordered McCarrick out of public ministry in 2009 or 2010, but McCarrick, abetted by powerful gay allies in the Curia, defied Benedict.”
“Vigano’s testimony gives weight to the theory that Benedict XVI resigned because he knew the lavender mafia in the Curia held all the cards, and that he couldn’t do anything”
theamericanconservative.com
Vatican Bombshell: McCarrick Conspiracy Uncovered!
Ex-Vatican ambassador to US tells all about the lavender mafia, and demands Francis's resignation
Mike:
Yes and no. In any case, thanks for our comments.
I love the Church. I love the physical as well as the spiritual Church. I love the buildings and what they literally and figuratively stand for. I love the statuary, the veneration of the Virgin Mary and the saints, the ritual, the smells and bells. I love the mass. I love the theology.
I love the heavenly Church. But the earthly Church has gone badly astray and it needs firm hands to restore it to the path of righteousness.
all this is making me wonder if bears actually do shit in the woods.
has anyone checked?
If Peter was the first 'pope' then why was he married?
Mark: "Attraction to adolescents isn't pedophilia"
Funny, when talking about Islam no one here has a problem calling Muhammed marrying an 11 year old pedophilia.
And? "Everyone here" could be insisting Muhammed was a pedophile for marrying a 15 year old, and that wouldn't make it correct to label attraction to adolescents "pedophilia".
But I get your point - squirrel!. I can see that it's very important to you that nobody thinks that the Church abuse scandal has anything to do with anybody's homosexuality, in any way. On that point, I don't think quibbling about the definition of "pedophile" is going to take you where you want to go.
Blogger readering said...
Pubertal. Not every day i come across a completely unfamiliar word that is close to a word i know.
I guess you know pre-pubertal and post-pubertal.
Funny, when talking about Islam no one here has a problem calling Muhammed marrying an 11 year old pedophilia.
Yeah. Because he married a 7-year-old.
@Roughcoat- Have you considered going to a Byzantine church? They’re in communion with the Roman church but have a different hierarchy. It’s a terrible thing to separate yourself from Christ because of the weakness of men.
all this is making me wonder if bears actually do shit in the woods.
has anyone checked?
Good question! My observation of bear scat suggests that bears shit wherever--and whenever--they want.
If anybody else was busted messing with kids we'd have their head,...wait. No, that's not true. Not in America. Child molestation's been going on as long as I've been alive, with, at best, spotty results over the course of my lifetime. From babies to teens, nobody's ever really made a big deal about it except, maybe, for the occasional parent. There's more jokes than anything resembling serious concern or action. Female teachers - anybody? Come ON. The denial is staggering to a former foster child who's seen, and been on, almost all sides of this stuff.
Religious evil is it's own shit potpourri, stinking up the joint, while believers discuss how to mask the smell. What? It's 2018, we're talking about building a Space Force and going back to the moon - on computers over the internet - but some of y'all are still so superstitious you're mad enough to even take even a hint of a risk with your kids getting raped to keep this man-in-a-dress-with-a-funny-hat charade going?
Future generations, alone, are going to hate you.
Aisha (Ayesha) could have been six when they were engaged--nine when they were married. The Imams today say to wait until you know she is ready before you begin to have sexual intercourse with her. You'll know when.
For the last 50 years, the culture has adopted an ethic that believes sexual fulfillment is a worthy goal in itself. That's how you got the priestly abuses but also the Harvey Weinsteins and the USC OB/GYN and the gymnastics coach and more sexually adventurous predatory teachers than can be counted. And that's just in the US.
The Catholic Church that raised me plays a longer game and, if you are familiar with its teachings, a better one. It has lost its way.
The prelates who covered for and failed to protect the flock from deviant priests need to be driven from the temple.
In the McCarrick case, Francis was told (by his predecessor, by the Vatican ambassador to the US and by a lay delegation that flew to Rome for that specific purpose) that McCarrick's behavior was evil. But still, Francis promoted the guy, took his advice on naming other US bishops and sent him to represent the church in worldwide capitals.
Of course, Francis should resign. Duh. If the church is serious, it also will purge every bishop and cardinal who committed abuse or failed to act when learning of abuse. If that's all of them, so be it; truth is more important than any single flawed individual.
The day-to-day management of the church should be relegated to the laity, and priests should rededicate themselves to priestly duties. No religious teacher, anywhere, should meet privately with an individual in a room without a floor-to-ceiling glass wall. (Confessionals, which DO have walls, would still be okay.)
That's what it will take to reassert moral clarity. It's the only way to begin to erase the stain now sticking to the many good priests and the long-suffering faithful.
.
You're partly right, Crack.
Sexual and physical abuse in the past was almost universal, I think. We're crawling up out of the darkness.
That's no reason to curse the past. The past was populated by souls who were, like us, trying to find their way to the light, step by step.
To make a giant leap, it's my opinion that sexual and physical abuse arises from the realities of inter-tribal warfare. Tribal warfare, back in darker times, required discipline in the form of what we now call sexual and phyiscal abuse.
We, as I said, are slowly emerging into the light. Have mercy on the past.
“all this is making me wonder if bears actually do shit in the woods.
has anyone checked?”
They must. They do it pretty much wherever they go. We find bear scat on the street by the house in MT at least once a year. The funny/scary one though was when I was living in the mtns west of Denver maybe 25 years ago. Neighbors were feeding the wild turkeys on their front porch - until they started seeing bear scat there. Which is why my partner and I are in a constant tiff about feeding from the porch. She has the deer eating out of her hands, and most everything that we put out is gone overnight. But anything that is meat protein or high caloric goes a block or two away. We had one once on our back porch (no scat though), and I don’t want a repeat on the front porch.
There was a lot of light in the past. Mostly light. Corners of darkness, to be sure, but ... mostly light. So it is not correct to say, imply, that the past was darkness and we are emerging from it into light. I would argue that we have a lot to learn from the past, and it is our ignorance of the past and its qualities of light that is in large measure responsible for the onset of darkness in our present age.
I am a practicing Roman Catholic. I also believe that the Catholic priests should be allowed to marry women - that would alleviate the current priest shortage, somewhat. Priests could marry women in the first Millenia and in fact some popes were succeeded by their sons. Saint Peter, the first pope, was married. That said, what the priests and in this case the cardinal had done to children is sick and criminal. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Years ago, in the Milwaukee archdiocese, archbishop Rembert Weakland covered up the pedophile priests under him. It was alleged that the milwaukee district attorney at that time looked the other way in helping his friend the Archbishop. Weakland had his own issues as a homosexual when it came out that he was blackmailed by his boyfriend and Weakland paid him off from archdiocese funds. This lead Pope John Paul the 2nd to force Weakland into retirement and the archdiocese had to settle a civil lawsuit by the victims of the pedophile priests. I believe that the liberal left will overlook Pope Francis in this case of the pedophile archbishop because the ends justify the means when it comes to what they want him to do to the Church - Francis is their darling. This is similar to when they backed Bill Clinton during his impeachment trial and Bill was having numerous affairs outside of his marriage. But since Bill was their Boy, he was useful them in other ways despite his use (and alleged abuse) of women. If Bill had been impeached, Al Gore probably will have served a full term as an elected president in 2000.
Addendum to Shouting Thomas: you talk as though you think you were born in the morning of the world and that all before your advent was darkness. That's vanity.
IMO, the vow of chastity makes the priesthood attractive to people who are uncomfortable with their sexuality. But the weird urges don't go away when they put on the frock; instead lots of opportunity presents itself. There is no doctrinal basis for not letting priests marry and removing the vow will help solve a lot of problems (including the shortage of priests).
Sydney:
No, I will not decamp to the Byzantine Church. I am very firmly a Roman Catholic. I don't want to leave the Church, I want to fix it.
Observe the sermons this week and next and listen for one fucking peep about this. It will be crickets or more banging on of we are all sinners.
I do think that this Pope is serving a purpose. The center of the RC Church for most of two millennia has been Europe, and esp Southern Europe. At the rate we are going, it is questionable whether the lands that have traditionally supplied Popes will be Christian in another couple decades. What will the Church do, when the Vatican is absorbed into the Caliphate? Christianity outside of Western Europe appears strong enough to withstand this onslaught off Islam. My guess right now is that France and Italy will be some of the first Christian nations to fall.
Here is an interesting thought - Islam appears more brutally opposed to adult male homosexuality than Christianity does. But it seems far more tolerant of pederasty, including adolescent pederasty. They essentially have men, who have sex with boys, helping stone to death men who have sex with other men. And that is what we are talking about here, priests having sex with boys and adolescent males.
Resign? Popes just get fired by their boss.
So are we saying that "NTTIAWWT" has expired?
If the allegation by the official are true, and I don't really doubt they are at this point, then, yes, Francis should resign. However, there is no chance, whatsoever, that he will do so- he will have to be forced out, if that is even a option for the cardinals.
Roughcoat: There was a lot of light in the past. Mostly light. Corners of darkness, to be sure, but ... mostly light. So it is not correct to say, imply, that the past was darkness and we are emerging from it into light. I would argue that we have a lot to learn from the past, and it is our ignorance of the past and its qualities of light that is in large measure responsible for the onset of darkness in our present age.
We should sit in judgment on the past only if we are willing to allow the past to sit in judgment on us.
Yes, because he is power hungry and no different then the dictators he has known in Argentina.
If Bill had been impeached, Al Gore probably will have served a full term as an elected president in 2000.
Good point. At that point Tipper was on board and I thought at the time that I didn't care if Bush or Gore won the 2000 election.
Gore had seemed to me the more balanced of the two in spite of the goofy Earth in the Balance stuff.
I think Gore went crazy after the 2000 election. Tipper left after that and he just went loony,.
The dam is about to burst. Is there any doubt why Pope Francis shielded these pedophiles? Get ready for the next shoe to drop.
"You can try to blame gays all you want, but none of my gay friends are interested in children, just like none of my hetero friends are either."
In all of recorded history, heterosexual society never produced anything like a straight version of NAMBLA. Ever.
I don't want to leave the Church, I want to fix it.
That's what Martin Luther tried to do. Some things just aren't fixable.
Maybe I didn’t complete my thought about the Vatican being absorbed into the Caliphate. The Lavender Mafia has traditionally come from primarily the countries most likely to fall to Islam. And seem least able to stand up to their Islamic invasion right now. The RC Church should, of course, be leading the opposition to Islam in these countries, but, of course, won’t. And much of that is probably a result of the sort of inner rot we are seeing here at the center of the Church. Internationally, the Church is probably doing just fine - it is just at its center that there is an issue. We are probably talking an existential challenge here. The parallel that I am thinking about is the effects of Judaism of the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans. It was an existential challenge because the religion had been at least tokenly Temple based up to that point. Did the loss of the Temple mean no Judaism? Obviously not, but it did mean a transition to two very different successors: Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity, and an almost complete elimination of the other sects that existed at the time, and in particular, the Temple centric sects that had been powerful through their control of the Temple. The Church’s future is not in Western Europe, as it has been for so long, but with the 2nd and 3rd World, such as where this Pope is from. I view him as transitional, from Western Europe centric to focusing on the rest of the world.
Hillary Clinton will never be Pope.
Tim Maguire proposes: IMO, the vow of chastity makes the priesthood attractive to people who are uncomfortable with their sexuality. But the weird urges don't go away when they put on the frock; instead lots of opportunity presents itself. There is no doctrinal basis for not letting priests marry and removing the vow will help solve a lot of problems (including the shortage of priests).
The Apostle Paul admitted to being asexual but urged those who were not to marry, lest they be tempted to sin.
"That's what Martin Luther tried to do. Some things just aren't fixable."
I've read what Luther wrote. His unhinged rants against the Church were every bit as over-the-top, demented and hysterical as the most deranged of TDS sufferers are against Trump. You could only say he tried to "fix" the Church in the same way TDS sufferers are trying to "fix" Trump.
As for the subject question:
I believe the abuse scandals were the culmination of Lenin's stated intent to destroy the Catholic Church from within, via infiltration. I believe Francis is a part of the cabal that engineered that infiltration. So yes, he should absolutely resign.
Pugsley suggests: Saint Peter, the first pope, was married. That said, what the priests and in this case the cardinal had done to children is sick and criminal. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Yes. The problem has been that predatory priests are never turned over to law enforcement but are merely moved to another parish. This happened to one of the priests affiliated with my younger daughter's Catholic middle school in Seattle in the mid-1980's. No doubt he continued his criminal practices in the new setting. This was never made public via the media due to the conspiracy of silence but was well known within the church. My daughter observed that this priest found excuses to be alone with boys.
The Church’s future is not in Western Europe, as it has been for so long, but with the 2nd and 3rd World, such as where this Pope is from. I view him as transitional, from Western Europe centric to focusing on the rest of the world.
Good points.
There was a priest in Chicago, named Andrew Greeley who was quite critical of the local hierarchy. He wrote a famous novel called, "The Cardinal Sins," about a corrupt Cardinal with a mistress. Greeley died in 2013 but used to have a house at Grand Beach, Michigan where my family has summered for years.
When my sister and her kids were there, Greeley would often come down to the beach with a video camera and take videos of the kids.
Hmmm.
That's what Martin Luther tried to do. Some things just aren't fixable.
Obviously you are ignorant of the Counter-Reformation. You can look it up.
Qwinn asserts: I believe the abuse scandals were the culmination of Lenin's stated intent to destroy the Catholic Church.
So there is no truth to the allegations? It's all part of a plot by Marxists? Now who's being 'over the top'?
I was raised as a Catholic. My teachers were nuns in grammar school and Jesuits in high school. They seemed like good people, and I can remember a few who were exceptionally good people. This was back in the fifties and early sixties. I knew two people who felt they had a vocation. I knew them fairly well. If they had some kind of offbeat sexuality, it was not apparent. The girl I knew who wanted to be a nun met some guy and pfft went the vocation. But, anyway, there was a time when the Church as a career appealed to competent and godly people...........Something happened. I don't know what happened, but the Church has a problem. It wouldn't seem to be so difficult to run an organization that knows how to eliminate sexual predators from its ranks and knows how to run an organization that doesn't appeal to predators in the first place, but the challenge has proven to be insurmountable. I don't know what they're doing wrong, but they're doing something wrong and don't know how to fix the problem........ To all the leftists who delight in the Church's predicament, I point to the examples of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hoxha, and many others and ask why Marxism-Leninism remained such a vibrant faith among their community for so long.
Roughcoat, because I admire you so much I don't want to get into a theological pissing match with you. Of course I am familiar with the counter-reformation but we shall never agree regarding the Jesuits and the implications thereof.
I didn't say there was no truth to the allegations. The abuse happened, at the hands of gays and pedophiles encouraged by Marxists to infiltrate the Church. Further infiltration was conducted to put men in positions of authority within the Church in order to provide cover to the first bunch. Not sure how anything I said amounts to "no truth to the allegations". Individuals were not framed, but the institution as a whole has been.
Michael K:
Fr. Greeley was a horse's ass. Arrogant and egotistical, full of himself -- a left-wing big mouth. Wouldn't surprise me one bit to learn that he was a predatory homosexual priest.
Wait, I take that back. I do know for a fact that some individual innocent priests WERE framed as part of the whole thing. But that some of the accusations were true I also have no doubt, and it happened as part of an organized strategy.
mockturtle:
Understood. Regret my snarkiness. I'm a raw nerve re this whole subject. Btw I'm no fan of the Jesuits, as presently constituted.
I don't know what they're doing wrong, but they're doing something wrong and don't know how to fix the problem........
Allow women and married priests.
That wonderful marriage between Christ and his bride has lasted 1985 years and will continue ad infinitum to the consternation of our secular friends and notwithstanding the Sunday secular photoshoots.
mockturtle:
Again: I was out of line. Apologies. Thanks for your kind words.
BTW, I also note how rarely in any of these abuse scandals against the Church, even with the infiltration, do you ever see any answer to questions like "What percentage of the total priesthood was ever implicated? How does that compare to the percent of public school teachers implicated in similar behavior?"
Every time I have seen those numbers researched, public school teachers have a FAR worse record, both in abuse and in coverup. I find it odd how few people seem interested in what would seem to me to be the most obvious question.
The Apostle Paul admitted to being asexual but urged those who were not to marry, lest they be tempted to sin.
No, he didn't.
He thought that Jesus would return in his lifetime or thereabouts and he thought marriage distracted people from their required devotion to God. You can't serve both God and your spouse.
Of course, if people really listened to him the Church would have died off. But that's another discussion.
The girl I knew who wanted to be a nun met some guy and pfft went the vocation
I knew a couple that were ex-priest and nun. He was a GP and an excellent one. Patients would drive miles to see him after he moved from north Orange County to south OC.
He had been a seminarian, I don't think he ever took final vows, in the Vatican and decided it was not for him.
He quit and went to medical school. Very ethical. His wife had been a nun and I can't recall if she got dispensation or had not taken final vows.
During the early 1990's, I met an Englishman who claimed to have been the head of the department in England that handles sexual scandals in the English public school system that included London and a big area around it. He started in the department as a young man fresh out of Uni and eventually headed the whole thing--something like a 40-year career. He said he was at it so long because nobody wanted to take his place. According to him, nobody was ever referred to the police for prosecution. None of the civil authorities wanted that--all the way up to the top. He also said that none of the parents wanted that because of the lifelong stigma on their child. At times, he tried to get parents to press charges, but they never did. Standard practice was to relocate the teacher and give him or her a clean review. Of course he dealt with certain people multiple times. He claimed to have opposed this policy from the beginning, but what was he to do?
Most Catholics do not partake in or exist in close enough proximity to see the rot in the superstructure. Most Baptists have no idea what the Southern Baptist Convention is up to or from where it derives its power either. My point was not to separate Catholicism out from all the other "churches" that have deviated from the "original plan" in God's Word, but to point out that any church-centered bureaucracy eventually reaches self-justifying and self-sustaining autonomy. Every "organized" religion is subject to the same destabilizing forces in the organization. And no church can rival the Catholic one for its bureaucracy, so it is no surprise that these institutional rot cases crop up there more often than other bureaucracies.
To be clear, local church-goers go out of devotion to God, in my opinion. And all Christian churches I have known (Catholic and otherwise), including Pentecostals and Mormons and the various flavors of Protestantism, and Jewish synagogues I've been acquainted with, have all shown a desire and results in assisting their own neighbors and surrounding regions. This was the only social safety net prior to the welfare state, and is still strong in the heartland of America, which exists in every city. This outreach and ministry in its simplest sense is the essence of the Gospel, and where His work is often done best, regardless of type of religion. If the outreach is centered on assisting the poor and downtrodden, then you are following the Gospel. Once a church starts getting too big for its shorts, gathering huge building funds and expansion plans, things tend to go awry. Not always. It takes discipline and good oversight, but I've grown very weary of megachurches and their monuments to ego being marketed as "outreach."
The Pope's problems and the bureaucracy he leads are an easy target, but only because of the scale of their operation and the scale of perfidy it allows.
Darrell: Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. I Corinthians 7:1,2
Michael is right to bring up Malachi Martin.
His story (he told various versions, in different novels, interviews, etc.) is about a fundamentally corrupt establishment in the Church, "liberals" opposed to its traditionalism, liberal because they are corrupt.
He did not ascribe this uniquely to homosexuality, but it seems that the hierarchial "mafia" has become so, or at least the large homosexual components of it have caused much of the rest to become complicit through silence, being reluctant to create scandals or in many cases unwilling to go to the trouble to reform the sins of disastrous predecessors. to
This was probably inevitable as homosexuality is the sort of illicit insider-group interest that can unite a mafia, exactly because it is illicit and requires secrecy, as well as being inherently corrupt. Corruption in this makes any other misbehavior seem trivial.
One has to wonder about the causes and nature of the various financial scandals of the Church, in this light. I also wonder about the back-story of the suppression and takeover of the Knights of Malta in 2017 by Vatican-supported German financial interests, the Knights who ran it being lay outsiders of independent means, not trained as clergy. It is now under the thumb of that Vatican mafia.
In a broader sense this scandal is yet another one of those things that supports a conspiratorial view of the world, because here we are, looking at a genuine, enormous conspiracy in the service of evil, in a fundamental global institution. If this was so well suppressed for so long, what are we to make of the institutions that did not tell of this? What to make of the press that fawned on Pope Francis, so attractive to the worldly liberal bien-pensants. Its not that all the details here were secret. Tracing the story back, it was, in most parts, quite public and could easily have been investigated and publicized by professional journalists.
Just how corrupt, or how "lavender", or worse, are all other institutions?
Question authority, and consider that anything is possible.
Seeing Red:
"I don't know what they're doing wrong, but they're doing something wrong and don't know how to fix the problem........"
Allow women and married priests.
Yeah, that really turned those moribund mainline Protestant churches around.
I think one could make a sound case against priestly celibacy, but the arguments that the Church just needs to "modernize" (allow women priests, etc.) to remedy the decline in faith and attendance aren't supported by any empirical evidence. It's the more traditional orders that are attracting vocations, the more traditional parishes and denominations that are attracting and maintaining membership. Not the groovalicious changing-with-the-times Catholic parishes or orders, or the same in other Christian denominations. They're dying.
It may be that they're all dying, traditional and groovalicious, but the latter are dying a lot faster. The former sure as hell aren't going to survive or thrive by following the example of the latter.
The foundation of the Roman Catholic Church was as an effort by the romans to subvert Christianity and bring it under state control.
It has no good function.
There is such an enormous amount of hypocrisy around this subject (*), especially from those of the counter-culture who so joyfully destroyed sexual morality. So basically all progressives.
But I have to say that if Francis resigned over this I would consider it well deserved since he has become the symbol of those responsible for the abuse, to wit the 'worshippers' of the Spirit of Vatican II, the suicide cult within the Catholic Church. And yet at the same time I call BS on this 'Francis is responsible'. One might say I'm conflicted.
(*) for instance, I'm not an American but I have read enough about the abuse endemic to your foster 'care' system.
1 Corinthians 7:1
Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.
1 Corinthians 7:1 (KJV)
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch [aptomai] a woman.
1 Corinthians 7:7-9
(7) I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
(8) Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.
(9) But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Francis is not responsible, he is simply a product of this system.
It pre-existed Pope Francis, and it seems it was instrumental in raising him to the Holy See. He is in large part their creature.
Whether he is personally corrupt in this way remains to be seen, but my guess is that he isn't, as it would make him a very vulnerable figurehead. He does seem however to be beholden to and sympathetic to the mafia.
Married priests with large families would be the beginning of the end for the Catholic Church in America. I guarantee it. Every kid gets a new car when you drive a piece of shit. Sure. Every kid goes to Notre Dame while your kid goes to community college. Sure. Now let's have a fundraising drive to update the boiler for $350k. Sure, $100.mo.
Words from the leadership of the Church seem to be meaningless. Nothing seems to change. Perhaps an unprecedented move like resigning and cleaning house would go a long way to reforming the Church on such abuses.
Having said that, I highly doubt Francis would resign. However, if could be a real watershed event in the life of the Catholic Church if he resigned and before he went he took a number of guilty or complicit Cardinals, Bishops and priests with him.
He does seem however to be beholden to and sympathetic to the mafia.
I don't know if you mean the "Lavender Mafia" or the real Mafia.
Malachi Martin, in one of his books, which were really roman a clef, said Paul VI was "The Mafia Pope" and said "The smoke of Satan surrounds the Throne of Peter" when Paul was Pope.
He also wrote that John Paul I was murdered and that is why John Paul II took that name.
Someone observed that the Church's record regarding these scandals is not so different than that of public schools. There have also been scandals involving the Olympics, Penn State, BBC and myriad other institutions that should have done better. It's a fair observation that this has something to do with bureaucracies protecting their own rather than some unique flaw within the Church. That said, no other institution has so betrayed its basic mission as the Church........Perhaps allowing women and married men to be priests would be a step in the right direction, but I don't see it as the cure. Perhaps a totally independent body made up of laity with absolutely no loyalty to the clergy or Rome could be appointed to handle the investigations. It's clear that the Church can't. The press and elected officials also have a spotty record......I dont think it's all that difficult to rid the Church of predator priests and their protectors. What's lacking is the will..
The Vatican mafia, or the leadership mafia, or the lavender mafia, which are pretty much aspects of the same thing. Call it the "deep state". Its the same sort of system and works the same way.
I don't think it's all that difficult to rid the Church of predator priests and their protectors. What's lacking is the will.
Ah, there lies the rub: lack of will is what makes it "all that difficult."
I'm reminded of Clauswitz's famous aphorism: "In war everything is simple, but even the simplest thing is difficult."
Deep state indeed. Deep hell.
Paul VI lived in a time of a controlled media.
Who knows what went on behind the scenes in those days.
Any such institution is prone to skullduggery, but it is not typical to have an enormous, broad based conspiracy organized around homosexuality and efforts to cover it up. That is unique. So far.
Perhaps there is a similar case of a homosexual mafia in US mass media though.
The conspiracy theorists posit a global pedophiliac system as the core of the "deep state". This Catholic Church revelation of the powers of the "lavender mafia" make such ideas sound more plausible.
Perhaps there is a similar case of a homosexual mafia in US mass media though.
My wife, who works in advertising and is very much involved in the entertainment industry, asserts only half facetiously that the vast majority of actors, male and female alike, are gay.
At one time I also worked in advertising/entertainment and, as well, in the music industry. I found both to be consummately wicked in cast. Coincidentally or no, both were also virtually swarming with homosexuals.
Roughcoat recalls: I'm reminded of Clauswitz's famous aphorism: "In war everything is simple, but even the simplest thing is difficult."
Or, as Kitchener said, “War is a stern game and he who would play it successfully should not be over-troubled with the bowels of compassion.”
Homosexuals cluster in arty fields. Art, Music, Movies, Fashion. Probably a lot of chefs. Decorators.
I remember a teacher who worked with my first wife. Her husband was a hairdresser. I hate to think of what he went through.
The hospital where I practiced for years was run by homosexuals. Almost every male associated was gay. They would have handsome young men mowing the lawns.
They got into trouble because the general partner was a crook and he hired gays because they tend to be clannish and secretive. Especially then, which was the 70s. Of course the AIDS epidemic just about wiped them out.
A woman relative of my wife owned an apartment building in Hollywood. She never had a vacancy because if someone was moving out , the other residents would find a new tenant. They were all gay and did not want a straight in the building.
We had two gay decorators redo our office. I didn't like the carpet he chose so they marched off in a snit.
I finished it myself.
I predict the abuse will go on, the efforts to hide it will be redoubled.
If there is even one case, then one can say the abuse will go on. But in the last 15-20 years or so, the number of contemporary cases has plummeted. Efforts to hide PAST abuse might have gone on -- but any attempt to do so will fail.
There is a reason why nearly everyone in my Catholic grade school class is no longer Catholic.
For the record - I’m not Catholic – or at all religious. I’m thinking that perhaps there are cultural reasons for the child abuse.
When I was a boy it was considered an item of prestige for a family to have a member enter the priesthood. But back then (I’m 75 years old) it seemed that religion was a more significant component in everyone’s life.
The institutions of religion and family have become less significant to life in general in America and the rest of most of the Western world. Perhaps this has resulted in recruitment difficulties for the Catholic church and perhaps a different type of young man with different motivations and lifestyle now chooses the life of a priest. Were those who chose the priesthood in the past from a more “normal” slice of manhood? I think so.
Simply start putting protest notes in the collection plate instead of money. Do the same with other donations until something is done. This will speak louder than anything else all the way up the ladder.
Every time I have seen those numbers researched, public school teachers have a FAR worse record, both in abuse and in coverup. I find it odd how few people seem interested in what would seem to me to be the most obvious question.
Because it is not really about abuse of children (or adults). It is not really about caring for the people harmed.
It is merely about bashing the Church.
But in the midst of this anti-Catholic bile, there is an interesting thing. Another reason that people are so very angry is because many of these same people actually want to look up to the Church and expect the Church to be a sign of good and holiness. They want the promise to be true, and they resent when the all-too-human members in this world fail to live up to it.
There are problems with gay power politics.
To understand the problem with gay power politics and the AIDS epidemic, read The Gravest Show on Earth, written by the exceedingly honest Elinor Burkett, who was, of all people, Frank Bruni's writing partner for years. Gay AIDS activists have at this point bullied and accused and stolen so many resources from people with other diseases -- chronically ill people, poor people, elderly people, disabled people -- with so much greed and inhumanity and manipulation that anyone involved in the continuation of this behavior should hang their heads in shame for being associated with such corruption.
And nobody involved in the AIDS industry should feign ignorance.
The same goes for the Catholic Church scandals. We all need to know more. Anyone who has read gay authors like Paul Monette, which is anyone interested in gay literature, cannot pretend there is not a serious problem with pederasty, sexual abuse, extreme homosexual power politics and anti-Catholic sexual perversion among Catholic clergy and especially in the seminaries and the hierarchy itself.
This wasn't news in 1970, when Monette wrote about it for eager audiences.
It wasn't news in 1980 or 1990 or today. But still we are being told nothing, and worse, as Crack observed, we are doing nothing. Molesters, be they foster parents or relatives or live-in stepfathers or priests or teachers or football coaches still virtually never go to prison for their crimes. The largest group of people raped and denied justice in America are children of both sexes.
I was hopeful to read Vigano's letter. But he just complains that the Pope isn't keeping pedophile priests under the Vatican's version of house arrest. He wants the Pope to step down for that but essentially admits that he has known things for decades without reporting them to real authorities -- the police.
And he is doubtlessly a required reporter, being a church authority throughout the scandal here in the U.S. So he wants the Pope to step down for not doing enough while he didn't do the one thing he should have done: marched all that information he had to the nearest police station and turned it over to the authorities.
The good priests I know all cherish celibacy because they understand the theology behind it. They understand and want to love the Church with a spousal love. As an "alter Christus," an image of the High Priest, they want to love and give themselves to the Church in the same way that Jesus the Bridegroom gives Himself to His Holy Bride.
At every ordination -- the liturgy where a man is by God's grace changed into a priest -- before he is ordained, the man prostrates himself before the altar. He literally lays down his life for the Church. Celibate priests are already married. Having a second spouse, a human wife, would detract from both.
I’m thinking that perhaps there are cultural reasons for the child abuse.
Sure. The perpetrators chose to give into the ways of the times and lead a worldly life. But the priesthood is supposed to be set apart. Those who truly receive the calling need to have a certain character of virtue -- but that does not mean that the priest needs to be superhuman. If they accept it, God will give them the grace to lead that holy and chaste life.
And, again, it should be noted that the overwhelming proportion of abusers come from the 1950s-70s generation, who came of age during the sexual revolution. The guys entering the seminary now and are becoming priests now are of an entirely different breed for the most part (some of that is due to seminarians being more tightly screened).
anti-Catholic sexual perversion among Catholic clergy and especially in the seminaries and the hierarchy itself
Some (most?) of the worst anti-Catholics are not the ignorant Evangelical types or atheists, etc, but those who are Catholic and have done such destructive evil.
This really is huge by the way.
The pope is being accused by an extremely senior man - an ex-Papal nuncio that is, effectively, not simply the ambassador to the US, but to the local Church something like the Vaticans political commissar, and the one assigned to the US no less, is a very deep player indeed - of cooperating with a well known abuser, having been informed in every formal and informal way of this, and despite the abuser having been sanctioned and sidelined by the previous Pope. And that such a man calls for the Popes' resignation?
And just as a lagniappe, Cardinal Wuerl, and several others by name and many more by implication. They have no cover.
This is truly an explosion.
This is one excellent reason why the Church requires an Inquisition. That was, indeed, one of the inquisitorial functions, as many of the defendants were clergy.
I expect that this will blow open a great deal more.
The Rod Dreher atricle in the American Conservative is excellent.
What Vigano knew about, presumably, was homosexual sex and sexual harassment in seminaries, not criminal conduct as per US laws. There is nothing to report on these matters to US authorities as a crime.
But who knows what is unsaid in this letter.
The pope is being accused by an extremely senior man
Reading the letter, there are some allegations that are a bit questionable. But then again, the standard here is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Or even a preponderance of the evidence, or probable cause, or even reasonable suspicion.
If we apply the same standard that the bishops themselves have decreed should be applied in abuse cases -- one of credible allegation -- then this is explosive.
Texting a friend about it last night when the story broke, I called it Nagasaki (the Pennsylvania grand jury report being Hiroshima, the first nuclear bomb to go off).
On Twitter, a few people have been assembling 'fantasy' versions of the Congregation of the Holy Inquisition (that will be restored by...-- that question is left unanswered): who should be the chief inquisitors? A diversion on a very bad day.
Yes, to answer Dr Althouse's question.
Remember the case of Mauro Inzoli, who Pope Francis returned to the priesthood after Pope Benedict had him returned to lay status.
Elizabeth Scalia at theanchoress.com has a number of good posts on this issue
That would be a first for her.
He has also promoted other far left bishops.
Yah, but they are all part of the Gay Magic Circle. That brings up an interesting question: would Francis appoint a CONSERVATIVE homosexual club-member to a cushy post?
That is pedophilia, not homosexuality.
You ought to get out and read a bit, Mark. The John Jay report back in '02 (or so), after a lot of serious research into the accusations, convictions, testimony, (etc.) across the country, stated that 80% of the predators were homosexual.
And you could also look up the terms "pedophile" and "ephebophile" so you know what you're discussing with Annie.
It is helpful to read Malachi Martin's novel about h Vatican to see what has been going on for 50 years.
Or you could read his "The Jesuits."
Or you could scare the bejabbers out of your Catholic self and read "Windswept House." The more we read these days, the more of "Windswept" becomes true.
Simply start putting protest notes in the collection plate instead of money. Do the same with other donations until something is done.
This is being done by some people, sans the note in the collection plate. But others say it won’t make a difference because the bishop takes whatever he demands from the parish. The parish give to the diocese. So, you just hurt your own parish, but maybe that’s a sacrifice we should make until the bishops clean house.
Do read "Windswept House".
Also "Hostage to the Devil".
As to the last, I have reasons to credit the premise.
Satan won this round.
Not so fast. He won several dozen souls--the Bishops, Cardinals, and priests who committed crimes. But once the facts are in the open, he begins to lose.
The VERY BEST change in Canon Law is this: before the 1983 Code, it was a sacrilege to smack a priest (Bishop, Cardinal) in the chops.
No longer! JPII fixed that.
Saint Peter, the first pope, was married.
So what? Peter also 'went celibate' on his ordination by Christ. There's a vestige of that in the ceremony for ordaining a married deacon: the wife must give her consent because technically, she's giving up marital relations.
Yes, I KNOW that "giving up" stuff is not practiced in the Church today, but there's a canon lawyer (Peters) teaching at Sacred Heart Seminary/Detroit, who is arguing strenuously that the Church in the west is screwing up on the matter. And he's not alone.
Further: Peter was also a fisherman, and that's no longer a job requirement for assuming the Papacy.
The celibacy (chastity) thing was decided not later than 350 AD; only corruption in the Roman church let it slide backwards until (IIRC in the 1400's) it was made mandatory again.
Greeley would often come down to the beach with a video camera and take videos of the kids.
Not for nothing he was called "Randy Andy."
the back-story of the suppression and takeover of the Knights of Malta in 2017 by Vatican-supported German financial interests, the Knights who ran it being lay outsiders of independent means, not trained as clergy
Wonder a little less, my friend! It turns out that Cdl. Burke was tossed out of his slot on the Congregation for Bishops by the Lavender Mafia (McCarrick, Pp. Francis, etc.)--and Francis also tossed him out of his chair as Chaplain to the Knights of Malta. Burke knew too much about too many, and strenuously objected to the rubber-giveaway program of the Knights.
So he was canned and banned.
Call it the "deep state". Its the same sort of system and works the same way.
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!!
Further: Peter was also a fisherman, and that's no longer a job requirement for assuming the Papacy.
Well, it should be! ;-)
many of these same people actually want to look up to the Church and expect the Church to be a sign of good and holiness. They want the promise to be true, and they resent when the all-too-human members in this world fail to live up to it.
Almost word-for-word what the wife of a local Lutheran (Missouri) pastor said to me a few weeks ago.
Already linked above, from article by "gay conservative" worth noting:
"I found that once a man touched me and began guiding me I felt helpless, even if I didn’t want to do anything with him. There were times I felt disgusted and yet I never backed away or said no . . . Yet the compulsion to continue exploring, searching and hoping that one of these men would actually love me back kept me returning to that basement bathroom . . . The compulsion never left me and throughout my teen years I engaged in astonishingly reckless behavior in my attempts to both satisfy my sexual urges and my deep desire for love and acceptance from a man. As the internet evolved, so did my sexual experience and I went so far as to meet men I only chatted with for a few moments online . . . I had had dozens of sexual partners by the time I was 16 . . . I remember believing myself odd and damaged when I left high school and began making friends with other gay guys my own age and I was shocked to discover nearly all of them had experienced the same thing. Accidentally discovered ‘cruising’ spots, online chatrooms and other methods of accessing sex with older men were common . . . As much as the LGBT world seems to ignore this reality, it seems fairly universal and unfortunately not time-bound to a period when young gay men had fewer options. There is an uncomfortable truth here that I never had sex with anyone my own age as a teenager. Every single man was an adult who recognized my youth and chose to engage in sex anyway. As a 34 year old man today I cannot conceive of doing this with a teenager. I genuinely struggle to understand how it was possible at all . . . As a culture we seem unwilling to consider that what we experienced ourselves as teenagers should not be the acceptable norm."
So he was introduced into the normal gay culture, including the frequent use of young men by old ones, learned to indulge his unrestrained compulsions, couldn't say no to sex as a mere anonymous encounter, and notes the degradation of a "culture" unwilling to consider that gay rape should not be an acceptable norm.
After half a century of sexual revolution and gay propaganda, on what basis would "we" reject such a norm?
Everyone bringing up Malachi Martin or interested in reading him should also look into Bella Dodds School of Darkness
If I hadn't already left the Catholic Church, Frank the Marxist would've done it for me.
He's a disgrace.
As a militant Presbyterian atheist, my red line in Christianity is the divide between kneeling, bishops and saints and the dissenters. One general principal amongst dissenters is that the congregation hires its own pastors.
While there is still sin amongst the preachers, the current Catholic sex scandal is impossible with true Protestants. Abusers are run out of their churches and shunned.
the current Catholic sex scandal is impossible with true Protestants. Abusers are run out of their churches and shunned
Except that they are not. Cover-ups are ubiquitous across all sectors of society, Protestants included. Although, based on history, it does seem that the essence of "true Protestants" is constantly and continuously breaking away and splintering into an infinite number of congregations.
If Trump is ever going to call a foreign leader at 2:00 in the morning, I would nominate His Evilness, Pope Francis. Have the phone ring at 2:00 AM Central European Time (7:00 Eastern) and tell him that he needs to be in the Oval Office by 10:00 AM the day after tomorrow with a plan to identify and compensate victims of the Catholic clergy in Pennsylvania, and anyplace else in the United States.
Big Mike suggests: If Trump is ever going to call a foreign leader at 2:00 in the morning, I would nominate His Evilness, Pope Francis. Have the phone ring at 2:00 AM Central European Time (7:00 Eastern) and tell him that he needs to be in the Oval Office by 10:00 AM the day after tomorrow with a plan to identify and compensate victims of the Catholic clergy in Pennsylvania, and anyplace else in the United States.
Or....you're fired!!!
In keeping with the stability of the church, he should channel some Forrest Gump. It this Global warming and the sons of bitches deniers.
"a plan to identify and compensate victims of the Catholic clergy in Pennsylvania, and anyplace else in the United States."
And then I would expect Francis to say that he will consider it if the USA gave the same compensation to all victims in the same time period, including those of those priests seeing that those priests where also citizens of the USA (or do you think it was only the CC that failed here). Of course, there isn't enough tax-money for that but hey, it's for the children.
"They want the promise to be true, and they resent when the all-too-human members in this world fail to live up to it."
Or, like Lewis wrote about 'modern' society;
“In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”
But even 'sex & drugs ...' society wants to look virtuous, so the CC is turned into a sin-eater.
As long as Pope Francis isn't replaced by another socialist.
Words from the leadership of the Church seem to be meaningless.
Pursue that thought.
Who does he give his resignation letter too?
To be complete ...
The Pope is supposed to be infallible !!!!
The priests supposed to be infellateable !!!
The Pope has refused to contradict the claims
They are true, and he should resign, or be expelled.
The level of moral wretchedness required to be willing to ignore the abuse, molestation, and rape of children, just to push a political agenda, makes "Pope Francis" a Borgia class Pope.
As rhhardin points out, this smells like a political move.
Yes, there is something that does need to be cleaned up. But it needs much more than the Pope personally intervening when an apparatchik whispers in his ear about a single one of the apparatchik's enemies.
If he were acting in good faith, I would expect the apparatchik to use the existing disciplinary processes and, if these are inadequate, work towards improvements.
I don't know the background and I could be completely wrong about the whistleblower. But on the facts as stated, I am unimpressed.
This post is now several days old, so I'm very late to the subject.
I was raised in the Catholic faith and continue to attend mass regularly. I admit that I never "loved" the Church, but respected it's works and the dedicated people within it. I haven't been to confession in almost 40 years, so, while I attend mass, I don't receive the Eucharist. I've continued to support my local parish because of the many charitable activities and ministries that it maintains. I feel that I can have a direct relationship with God and live my life in accordance with Jesus' teachings without subjugating myself to the demands of Church doctrine. Whatever moral authority the Church once held in my estimation, is long since expired; starting with the revelations in the early 2000's. These recent revelations have intensified my fury. I find myself wondering whether I need to abandon it altogether.
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