October 8, 2016

"Grabbing an unsuspecting and unwilling person's genitals is a criminal act of sexual assault under any definition of sexual assault."

"Trump is evidently proud of the fact that he wielded his wealth and star power as a weapon to help him abuse women—to kiss and grope them without their permission. This is violence, full stop.... Trump would be a dangerous enough human being if he were just a regular celebrity with a penchant for groping women. As it so happens, he might also become the next leader of the free world—a position he is manifestly unqualified to hold.... No man whose overriding ideology is that he gets to do whatever he wants—to whomever he wants—should be president."

Writes Robby Soave at Reason.

I said the same thing when I first heard the recording yesterday. Quoting Tim Kaine's "I don't like to say the words that he's used in the past... but this is behavior," I said:
Yes, Tim Kaine is right. Trump's statement — which is itself only words — is a confession to behavior.

Criminal behavior. Sexual assault.
And I agree with Soave that the problem goes beyond sex. It reveals an attitude about how to use power: If there is no external restraint, you can do anything.

You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint. 

121 comments:

BDNYC said...

Oh wow, you really are unhinged. Listen again to the tape, if you are able. It's crude and disgusting banter, nothing more. Do you really think Trump admitted to Billy Bush, the president's cousin, that he grabs women in the pussy without their consent? Think hard about this.

Chuck said...

Scott Adams writes:
3. I assume that publication of this recording was okayed by the Clinton campaign. And if not, the public will assume so anyway. That opens the door for Trump to attack in a proportionate way. No more mister-nice-guy. Gloves are off. Nothing is out of bounds. It is fair to assume that Bill and Hillary are about to experience the worst weeks of their lives.


Somebody remind me about Trump's "Mister Nice Guy" phase. I missed that one.

What will happen; (1)The worldwide press will condemn Trump. In terms never before seen in a presidential campaign. (2)Trump supporters will make a perfectly credible case that when it comes to marital fidelity and abuse of women, Bill Clinton and to a lesser extent Hillary Clinton are much the same as Trump. (3)Number (2) won't matter, and Trump will lose by 100 electoral votes.

Michael McClain said...

Match crude conversation to enabling a serial sexual predator and living with an accused rapist.

Jason said...

Trump did not say that he does this. Read closer, professor.

Laslo Spatula said...

"You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and is governed by self-restraint."

I won't mention Hillary, so: Obama.

I am Laslo.

Right Man said...

Here we go taking Trump literally again.

Mark Caplan said...

On the positive side, this is one more example demonstrating Trump isn't another Hitler. "Hitler was courteous, even charming in a somewhat awkwardly stiff and formal fashion, to his guests, especially towards women" (biographer Ian Kershaw).

rhhardin said...

You can't grab women's genitals.

You can't even feel them. A result discovered by every boy advancing on the early bases in high school. Stick with nipples until you advance much further than you've gotten.

The female genitals are a low definition area, grab wise.

It's got to be a figure of speech, an analogy to penis grabbing possibly.

Diogenes of Sinope said...

In this election cycle the Left has become literalists, but only for Trump statements. I don't know, has Trump been charged with any felonies?

Annie said...

While you and the media ignore the victims of Clinton's actual sexual assaults and Hillary's part in them.

In the meantime, the most recent email leak, shows more abuse of power by Hillary in bed with bankers, while trashing them and lying to her supporters.

As a woman, those things, along with getting her ambassador killed while arming terrorists and taking millions from misogynist terror states, is so much worse than stupid locker room talk.

stlcdr said...

Tagged Trump rhetoric: noted.

While not condoning this behavior in a presidential candidate, I guess there are a lot of people who are very high and mighty, who have not spend a lot of time around working class people. That's what trump is; working class. Like a large swath of middle America.

Michael K said...

I started to read the second comment until I saw it was chuck.

This is almost as successful a coup as the Watergate coup by Mark Felt.

I wonder how long that tape sat in somebody's files ? The DNC and Hillary could give lessons to the Nazis and Stalin.

The timing was perfect as it was the weekend that Wikileaks dropped the Hillary e-mail load.

It looks like we are doomed and Ryan was first off the ship, even before the rats

Diogenes of Sinope said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dreams said...

"You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint."

Selective outrage. Bill Clinton, JFK and LBJ were all known as horndogs and they all behaved badly. Bullsh*t!

The Cracker Emcee said...

"You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint."

I think Althouse is trolling us here and it really isn't Trump she's talking about.

Hagar said...

Fratboy bravado is unseemly, but hardly disqualifying for office.
In recent times we have survived the Kennedys, LBJ prowling the house at night and crawling into beds with female visitors - married or not - and Bill Clinton "maybe you should put some ice on that".

The GOPe calls for Trump to step aside - in favor of whom, exactly?
The Democrats at least have Bernie Sanders, who must be said to have earned second place. The GOPe has no one.

Diogenes of Sinope said...

Your description "You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint" has been demonstrated unquestionably and repeatedly by actions of Clinton.

David Begley said...

Laslo beat me too it. Hillary has no internal moral core. But it is worse with her. She is immune from impeachment. The Dems would never vote to convict and remove from office the historic first woman president who is in a sham marriage with the last impeached president. Power unchecked and unbound.

khesanh0802 said...

As irritating as this is I wonder if the Clinton campaign has gone over the top on this and will regret it. Probably wishful thinking, but what else do I have?
Certainly Trump's comments are the harshest locker room talk I have ever heard. I have spent a lot of time in locker rooms, but that was mostly in the 60's and early seventies when there were remnants of standards and I was young and inexperienced. Given the low standards of public discourse theses days (think rap and hip-hop, etc.) one should expect that private discourse will be equally lewd and tasteless.

PB said...

Every Friday with Democrats it's some shiny object to distract the rubes and lighten their wallets. If you don't realize that, you're a rube being fleeced.

I won't vote for either Trump or Clinton, a position I've held since early this year, but with President Trump, the press will be adversarial, with a chance to correct some damage of the Obama years. With Clinton it'll be more years of hero-worship while she doubles down on failed Obama policies.

As Scott Adams tweeted: "Trump is out of the running for sainthood, but Kennedy-type jobs are available."

alan markus said...

I wonder if the release of the Trump video was payback for the release a few days earlier of a photos/video showing Bill Clinton putting his hand between the legs of a stewardess on his campaign jet? The video appears to be quite old. I found it by Googling "Clinton grope" - seems to have appeared on some fringe sites - mainstream media must not have considered it newsworthy.

Laslo Spatula said...

All this time the Dick of Damocles was hanging above Trump's head.

I am Laslo.

PB said...

"He's a guy! A guy dressed like a Sheila!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzrE8lGJds

These days, the only way to know is to check. Trust but verify.

khesanh0802 said...

Chuck;

Just at the beginning of this week Trump said he had decided to put Clinton's sexual escapades off-limits. That he felt the discussion should be about policy. I don't have time to look it up and link you, but I believe it was Monday or Tuesday that he said this.

Chuck said...

Michael K said...
...
I wonder how long that tape sat in somebody's files ?


Here's what I wonder; how many more tapes, videos, affidavits, transcripts, tax returns, tax return appendices, letters, police reports, etc., are there with Trump? Michael.

You know my position all along; the Democrat is terrible. Indeed, she is so terrible, any good Republican ought to be able to beat her. But instead Republican primary voters picked the one guy who couldn't. The one guy who was such a loose cannon, that anything could happen including putting cannonballs through the conning tower and into the ship's powder magazine.

Told ya!

mtrobertslaw said...

Hillary's problem goes beyond lying and destroying evidence of a crime,"it reveals an attitude about how to use power. If there is no restraint, you can do anything.

You can't trust a person who doesn't have an internal moral code and is governed by self restraint."

Temujin said...

Suddenly Democrats find their standards. Wonderful. Let's see how long that lasts.

Big Mike said...

You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint.

@Althouse, you do understand that you've just described both major party candidates, right?

alan markus said...

@Hagar:
The Democrats at least have Bernie Sanders, who must be said to have earned second place

But then Bernie has this baggage - what he wrote in an essay in 1972:
"A woman enjoys intercourse with her man — as she fantasizes being raped by 3 men simultaneously."

Unknown said...

If only we had more moral, ethical and virtuous politicians like bill clinton and Hillary...

Also I think the issue is that people judge this type of banter as more serious than droning assange or refusing to provide more security to Benghazi because you are worried about your gunrunning scheme being exposed with more oversight

The GOP circling firesquad continues to not understand how to deal with msm

Chuck said...

By the way; about calls for Trump to resign his candidacy. It's not that it won't happen; it can't happen! I already have my Michigan absentee ballot. All across the country, early voting has already started. All the ballots have been printed.

Trump could say, "Vote for our ticket. I won't take the oath; or else I will resign upon taking the oath, so please understand I want you to vote for Mike Pence as President. He'll be a great leader; the leader we need, to stop Hillary and four more years of Obama..."

He could say that.

tcrosse said...

It's what Mencken would call a Gang of Pecksniffs, who are Shocked! Shocked! at such language.

Paul Snively said...

So the choice is between someone who appears to have committed sexual assault and someone who has covered up her husband's sexual assaults, legally harassed the victims, gotten American government officials killed, taken criminal action to prevent her official communication in her capacity as a government official from being transparent, and then attempted to cover that up.

Yeah, I'm super- excited about this election!

We're starting to put the "banana" in "banana republic."

Clayton Hennesey said...

Professor Althouse is holding a course in "doubling down".

That what she says is ridiculous on its face is immaterial.

Chuck said...

When do you guys begin to accuse Althouse of being a Hillary! supporter? You know, a secret agent; a moby; a closet liberal.

Because I know rather well how that goes.

Laslo Spatula said...

"You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

Isn't this the Hillary plan of getting the female vote?

Keep reminding them of their vagina, and the rest will follow?

More wood for the woodchucks to chuck.

I am Laslo.

Bob Boyd said...

It will be interesting to see if any women come forward and say Trump did grab them by the crotch. I expect some will.

But until then it's just bragging. It's like a guy talking tough, "I'm not afraid of anybody. That guy got in my face, really pissed me off. People like that... I punch them right in the nose."
Maybe the guy has never been in a fight in his life, but he talks like he's no one to mess with. It's not attractive, but it's not a confession to assault.

Clayton Hennesey said...

Althouse isn't being a Hillary supporter, she's merely being feisty and clickbaity because her law professor career's already a finished accomplishment no longer requiring credibility.

Charlie Eklund said...

"You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint."

~Althouse


If the situation weren't so terrible, for the country and for the world, that quote would be pretty damned funny.

Freder Frederson said...

"But until then it's just bragging. "

Which may be an excuse for a sixteen year old boy, but not a sixty year old man. Some time between sixteen and sixty you need to start acting like a mature adult.

Michael K said...

"You know my position all along; the Democrat is terrible."

Oh, you will find a way to vote for Hillary. Your virtue demands it.

I just wonder what they have on Ryan.

Have you ever read "Advice and Consent?"

cubanbob said...

"You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint."

Althouse did you feel that way in 1992 and 1996? And as noted by others above thread does willfully violating federal criminal statutes lead you to believe that person has self-restraint?

All the faux outrage. It's so transparent and nauseating.

David Begley said...

I hope Trump uses Laslo's last comment. The woman card but in cruder terms.

AprilApple said...

No wonder Trump and Bill liked to golf together. If only we had that hot mic.

cubanbob said...

By the way where is the Bill Clinton and Nina Burleigh tag?

buwaya puti said...

Anne,
You think any of the people running this system right now have some form of self-restraint?
No they dont. They do what they can get away with.

You are judging a tomcat for being catty. In a field of tomcats, and worse.

Its their nature.

AprilApple said...

Thing is - it's only talk.

I'm not defending Trump - but it's only talk.

With Bill, you have actual women who stated he assaulted them.

cubanbob said...

Freder Frederson said...
"But until then it's just bragging. "

Which may be an excuse for a sixteen year old boy, but not a sixty year old man. Some time between sixteen and sixty you need to start acting like a mature adult.

10/8/16, 9:38 AM"

Let me guess, you voted for Bill. By the way, is Bill still hanging with the convicted pediphile Epstein?

mockturtle said...

"You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint."

As someone already mentioned, JFK, LBJ and WJC. All Democrats. But, hey! We all know that Democrats are allowed to be horny! It's just part of their charm.

Ann, you really, really have turned troll here and it's disappointing.

Unknown said...

Trump should announce that although it is too late for him to withdraw and for the GOP to find another candidate, he will resign if elected, and Mike Pence would become president. Pence should announce whom he would name as his VP if Trump resigns, and they should start campaigning together. Trump should cease all campaign activity, including the debates.

AprilApple said...

Words can disqualify an R.

No criminal behavior harms the D.

Bob Boyd said...

@ Freder

You're absolutely right.

I'm not trying to excuse Trump. I'm just saying there's a difference between talking like an ass and assaulting someone. Maybe he did assault a woman or women, but right now we just have him mouthing off. He didn't confess to a specific act.

Annie said...

You can't trust a person who doesn't have an internal moral code.

Hillary and Obama have corrupted every government agency with their law ignoring hacks, to the benefit of themselves and their cronies. The scariest of all is the very compromised and politicized FBI and DOJ. Just imagine what Hillary, who is known to have no moral code, will have free reign to do. Look what she is getting away with now.

But hey, let's ignore all that because Trump engages in trash talk with the boys. As if hillary really cares after remaining with and covering for a rapist.

Diogenes of Sinope said...

I hate both Trump and Clinton.

Let's use the Hillary Clinton legal standard in judging Trump. If he hasn't been indicted his behavior must be fine. But of course we are comparing words to actions. But who cares.

No indictment no issue.

David Begley said...

IF Trump was the Dem nominee would Nancy Pelosi et alia and the MSM be denouncing him to the heavens and saying he should withdraw.

Once written, twice... said...

Ann Althouse is such a phony.

She has been "rooting" for Trump for a good part of a year, but she is just now shocked by who he is? Let their be no mistake, the release of the Access Hollywood video yesterday was not a revelatory bombshell. It just proved that the private Trump is just as crude as the public Trump.

Now Ann is acting all shocked and acting all high handed about it. Ann is either an idiot for being shocked or she is a phony.

Yancey Ward said...

Tomorrow night's debate promises to be the nastiest of all time. While I found Trump's comments crude and unbecoming, I am not surprised- as a man, I have heard things as bad many, many times from people I still like and respect. I figured out a long time ago that most of it is sheer braggadocio. And, really, what do you suppose you would find if you looked at the real internet history of any male over the age 12? Most men (99% of us) already know what you would find. I wonder if women would really be all that shocked either, but let them speak up for themselves.

This is going to be tricky for Clinton to use against, Trump, though. If I were advising her on tomorrow night's tactics, I would say she shouldn't bring this up herself, and she would probably be wise to downplay when it does come up. Her problem is that she has explicitly and implicitly condoned her husband's behavior for running on four decades now, and there are actual rape accusations from women who aren't hiding in anonymity.

Clayton Hennesey said...

I think this election will produce a new era in America, though: fastidiously polite criminality.

When the IRS, FBI, and DOJ have long since been suborned as the private enforcers of the Executive Branch and when the real crimes now become rude and politically incorrect speech instead, citizens across America will be laying in an extra copy of Miss Manners alongside the next can of AR-15 ammo so that when they start casually violating all laws at the neighborhood level they can rest fully assured they'll still be invited to tea.

I'm thinking of a Victorianesque 1920's Chicago, where no rapist will proceed without remarking "You have never looked more beautiful, my dear."

PBandJ_Ombudsman said...

Certainly has been an interesting 24 hours!

buwaya puti said...

I am much closer to sixty than sixteen - much, much closer.
I was much better behaved at sixteen.
What I've learned in the meantime is that so much of self restraint is wasted, pointless, and personally destructive. All that internally generated anxiety for what?

Mary Beth said...

As someone already mentioned, JFK, LBJ and WJC. All Democrats. But, hey! We all know that Democrats are allowed to be horny! It's just part of their charm.

Wasn't Trump a Democrat 10 years ago too?

Once written, twice... said...

Ann is not an idiot. Instead she is a phony and an internet huckster. On the cheap she has built up her Althouse Hillbilly (Clinton would call them "basket of deplorables) following. Ann could have posted more thoughtfully and built up a following of thoughtful readers and commenters, but instead she lazily throws out red meat to keep her goonish Althouse Hillbillies on her porch.

Humperdink said...

Well this should make tomorrow's debate interesting.

At first I thought the late release of this would not give Raddatz, Cooper, and the Mookster enough time to coordinate tomorrow's game plan. But then I realized they probably had this under wraps for several weeks now.

mockturtle said...

Mary Beth reminded us: Wasn't Trump a Democrat 10 years ago too?

That's right! He was just being true to his Party's standards.

n.n said...

Pro-Choice is a confession to the final solution.

Planned Parenthood is a confession to debasement of human life.

Class diversity is a confession to racism, sexism, etc.

"=" is a confession to selective exclusion.

Liberalism is a confession to degrading women as taxable commodities, serviceable props, and democratic leverage.

People will be crucified for their thoughtcrimes, not actions.

Female chauvinists will drive a wedge between men and women, and will abort/plan their Posterity.

The refugee crises is a cover-up for progressive wars and to irresponsibility.

I wonder if we can force a confession from the kitchen sink.

Once written, twice... said...

But now we get to the part of the routine where she decides she is sick of you and pretends she is not as scummy as her guests.

"Get movin' you Hillbillies! I want to see you RUN, you HEAR ME!"

Ann does over and over to her hillbillies. It's "wash, rinse, and repeat."

mockturtle said...

Clayton Hennesey at 9:54, Spot On! :-D

david7134 said...

Trump is for the return of our country, Hillary wants to continue the damage, I don't care what Trump does to women as long as we get our country back.

By the way, Hillary said much worse and did much worse to the women that her husband raped.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Lock him up!

bagoh20 said...

Yea, ya think for a moment that's not a guy I want as President, but the thought just brings you right back and reminds you how bad Hillary is that you still can't choose her even with this and all the rest. The Republicans chose very very badly, of that I'm sure, but the Dem. candidate is so corrupt and tarnished that it's almost impossible to find someone bad enough to deserve the office less. Everything he does bad that makes you rethink it, just reminds you again how bad she is. His overreaches were not in office and rarely illegal or damaging to the nation. Her's most certainly were, and that should trump any mistakes he made in his private life, or even business that I've seen so far.

Besides, Hillary once grabbed my junk and wouldn't let go until I wrote her a check, but that's not what disqualifies her in my mind. If you don't believe me, I still have the bruise from her hand. Here is a photo of it.

n.n said...

So, Trump left the Pro-Choice Church, Democrat Party, and lost his degenerative progressive liberal ideology, and now the Church, liberals, and special and peculiar interests want to crucify him for his apostasy. Denying their gods from the twilight zone and their liberal judges is an unforgivable sin.

Obama and Clinton sodomized and aborted a reformed dictator for opposing their progressive wars and mass emigration reform. They raised terrorists to replace national Muslims and suppress the people's voice. They sodomized and aborted an American ambassador and others during the Libya-ISIS Affair.

n.n said...

In the last hour, without vetting, the revelations and witnesses that come out of the closet now will lose credibility, and in the twilight's haze, the actions of the progressives, liberals, and "moderates" will stand in stark relief. Viva la sexual revolution!

William said...

There's "just sex" and obnoxious talk about sex. Any person with a moral compass knows which flaw is disqualifying in a leader........I will vote for Trump, but he's dead man walking. Hillary has won the election. You can argue that the latest lies told by Hillary as revealed in the Wikileaks dump are more substantive and revelatory of character flaws than Trump's posturings. You could argue that and win the argument but not the election.......Whoever wins will be despised by almost half the electorate and distrusted even by their supporters. Worst election choice of my lifetime, and I'm an old man.

Drago said...

David Begley: "IF Trump was the Dem nominee would Nancy Pelosi et alia and the MSM be denouncing him to the heavens and saying he should withdraw."

Of course not.

After all, the left taught us quite forcefully in the 90's that a persons private sexual behavior has nothing to do with their performance in office. And that included sexual assault (and with Billy boy, probably statutory rape as well).

Remember how the dems gave Gerry Studs a standing ovation after the revelations of his sexual relations with a 17 year old male page?

The dems: They are all about high morals!

LOL

Kevin said...

Billy Bush, who hangs out with celebrities and powerful people all the time, not only didn't seem offended by Trump's remarks at the time, but waited 10 years later, until the day Wikileaks dropped the excerpts from Hillary's Goldman Sachs speeches, to find his behavior out of the ordinary.

We are being manipulated.

Rhythm and Balls said...

OK. So let's just all redefine the word "unwilling" to mean things it doesn't mean. Like, "more spontaneous than anything I would do." Or, "without the cautious fear of over-reaction that plagues people as un-smooth as myself." Or, "unbeholden to a verbal/written contract beforehand to absolve everyone of irresponsible or even vindictive accusations that one party was unwilling."

Just admit it. You're all just clumsy or passionless or ignorant or boring or AWKWARD romantic partners who are used to expecting rejection, wish you could re-format basic human sexual behavior to be as tedious as courtroom trial antics and want "unwilling" to now mean "spontaneous." You are not consent fanatics. You are bad lovers.

End of story.

Am I wrong? If three people agreeing with the general direction of this silly pattern of editorials has ever been praised as a good lover, I want to see evidence of it - preferably in writing.

I also want to know how sexual interactions typically proceed for you on a date. What follows what. How are your signals patterned and followed. Describe it, you Casanovas. Let us know what the New Anthropology has dictated in the way of this artificially reconstructed technical compendium of legally acceptable seduction.

Spell it out, Sexless Boys and Girls!

This really is hilarious - hearing the sexless dictate sexual behavior for the sexually active. Almost like hearing Althouse follow-up every AGW-related post with the all-important politics on the topic. Politics first, reality second.

HT said...

"
"Grabbing an unsuspecting and unwilling person's genitals is a criminal act of sexual assault under any definition of sexual assault."
"

I agree. However, do we know without a doubt that the person was unwilling and unsuspecting?

The "They let you" that I said previously could mean self-delusion, could also mean they really did let him. I would want to know just a little bit more before I issued such a pronouncement.

History is written by men and women who use power thusly. It's not a judgment, just an observation. I think our country is too large and complicated to have leaders with the character you and others demand, and there is not enough time to come up with them every 4 or 8 years in any case. Maybe I am too cynical.

SukieTawdry said...

You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint.

In other words, neither major party candidate is worthy of trust.

HT said...

Kevin said...

Billy Bush, who hangs out with celebrities and powerful people all the time, not only didn't seem offended by Trump's remarks at the time, but waited 10 years later, until the day Wikileaks dropped the excerpts from Hillary's Goldman Sachs speeches, to find his behavior out of the ordinary.

We are being manipulated.

10/8/16, 10:20 AM

He encouraged it. Just do a google. He's getting into some trouble for it and is now apologizing for his "immature" behavior.

Michael said...

In which our hostess reveals the profound insularity of the academy.

Rhythm and Balls said...

While you and the media ignore the victims of Clinton's actual sexual assaults and Hillary's part in them.

Althouse doesn't care about actual crimes. She cares about the politics of accusations of criminality.

Actual rape appears unimportant to her.

The way she can use an accusation of rape in a political way - to entrap Trump or absolve the rape enabler Hillary - that seems to be what's motivating her.

Sad and unfortunate. But for some people politics is their own reality. This is just how lawyers, and those who instruct them, are. It's all about how things can be made to appear.

Imagine a magician. Someone practiced in the art of sleight of hand. But applied to some of our most disturbing and pressing moral and social issues - instead of how objects are made to physically appear, disappear or reappear.

That is what Althouse does. It's what she's trained to do.

If you think lawyers care about truth, you are naive. What they care about is vindicating their clients and destroying their opponents. Actual objective searches for truth are a mere casualty in this business. And humane concerns generally? Forget it!

EDH said...

"Grabbing an unsuspecting and unwilling person's genitals is a criminal act of sexual assault under any definition of sexual assault."

I say put James Comey in charge of the investigation!

SukieTawdry said...

That's what trump is; working class. Like a large swath of middle America.

The trouble for Trump is, even that large swath isn't enough to elect him. He will have to count on voters who conceivably will find this offensive.

Friedrich Engels' Barber said...

Yossarian - criminal.

Rhythm and Balls said...

I agree. However, do we know without a doubt that the person was unwilling and unsuspecting?

Sane people look at context or evidence. Or they acknowledge the idea that - again, based on the context of the discussion and Trump's personality - he was wildly exaggerating.

Insane people however -- i.e. lawyers, politicians, university bureaucrats, etc. - don't care about that and they don't care about truth. They care about the feelings of abnormally fragile people who are unsure of how to navigate the subtleties of sexual behavior (or any behavior, really) in a complex species where innuendo and body language is the norm and verbal consent is almost never a plainly stated, direct thing.

A form of verbal "consent" in the guise of playful, interpretable suggestive sex talk could be normative in people who don't mind sexual language. But these are not the people who are showing the strange and intense interest in this matter. They never are. They are not the ones who prefer to manipulate things that way.

bagoh20 said...

Was it unwelcome and unexpected? It's like Obamacare - you have to try it first to find out. Trump was just using the Pelosi maneuver in his sex life. It's wrong for the same reasons, but which is more of a violation? I personally feel raped every time I learn more about Obamacare and remember how the Democrats Pelosied us all with their dirty groping hands, and they didn't accept "no" for an answer.

AprilApple said...

The nation did say no to Obamacare, and we were raped anyway. Good point, Bags.

also love this:

" The Republicans chose very very badly, of that I'm sure, but the Dem. candidate is so corrupt and tarnished that it's almost impossible to find someone bad enough to deserve the office less. Everything he does bad that makes you rethink it, just reminds you again how bad she is. His overreaches were not in office and rarely illegal or damaging to the nation. Her's most certainly were, and that should trump any mistakes he made in his private life, or even business that I've seen so far."

Boom.

HT said...

A good lawyer knows his or her role in the judidical system and does his/her best to live up to it. I'm not sure many are deluded about truth.

Achilles said...

"You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint. "

Did Trump actually rape or assault anyone? If not any halfway intelligent person would say he is governed by self restraint.

Is Ann really stupid or is she just stupid when her vagina takes over?

Friedrich Engels' Barber said...

No, you are completely misinterpreting the meaning of the conversation, which is that men are endlessly fascinated and amused that certain women, when in the presence of a famous or very wealthy man, throw off all the rules that men have been and are endlessly taught regarding what is allowed in communing with girls and women, those rules supposedly based on deeply moral grounds. Then we see that those rules are just, for those women, the rules of a game, no moral basis involved, to be ignored by such women when they see what they want and believe those rules get in their way. It’s like finding out that some people are in the religion business only for the money. Anyone who has spent time around a male celebrity sees it routinely. Trump is pointing out that there are some women who can be so described, and some who are cannot, and it is astonishing to men, after a lifetime of indoctrination, how apparently rule-less are those who can. (Actually, some of those women continue to play both sides – ask Mike Tyson.)

I am guessing that at some point in that conversation, some guy will say All women are whores, you just won’t discover about your wife until you go to divorce court. It is a well-worn male conversation path.

Bob Ellison said...

Mark Twain, "Running for Governor".

AprilApple said...

Still, we were warned about Trump. Drudge never vetted him and the media knew he'd be Hillary's best hope.

Jonathan Graehl said...

I guess what we're seeing is Ann deciding that she'd rather have Hillary and acting accordingly. I can't otherwise explain the "violent" and "nonconsensual" angles.

Unless this is some sort of reductio against affirmative consent, I don't get it. If you're any fun at all you don't verbally ask before you kiss. The ask and the consent is all nonverbal.

Rhythm and Balls said...

Did Trump actually rape or assault anyone? If not any halfway intelligent person would say he is governed by self restraint.

A rape or assault, like any crime, requires something called "a victim." So far we have no evidence of one.

All we have are some obviously and easily exaggerated words by a guy given to exaggeration and with a spoken record long enough and spontaneous enough and active enough and involved enough to unsurprisingly contain anonymous, generalizable exaggerations that would actually touch on that stupid third rail of American politics: Sex.

Is Ann really stupid...

To be as one-sided in one's politics as to attempt to conform them to the new, "only direct, verbal consent counts" standard, requires a form of blindness that surely isn't intelligent.

Meade said...

"Did Trump actually rape or assault anyone?"

He said he did. You calling Trump a liar?

Andrew Koenig said...

"You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint."

By this logic, Trump and Clinton have both disqualified themselves as trustworthy. But one of them is going to be our next president.

Where does this leave us?

Rhythm and Balls said...

I'd say that in many of these Hollywood awards scenarios, women in tight, soft, revealing gowns who sit next to the objects of their admiration would be likely to wiggle and wriggle all over a guy that they're interested in - usually right next to or on his lap or things that might be in his lap - with the intention of eliciting and gauging what we, the biologically inclined might call "a reaction."

Our society doesn't call that assault but it's pretty much non-verbal. And it happens all the time in the rich and famous set. A woman in tight, form-fitting soft clothes gets close to the guy she wants to get "somewhere" with that evening - physically, and makes sure that some wiggling takes place. It's NEVER verbal. The wiggling is definitely intentional, and definitely sexual. And never requested. It would constitute the "assault" standard that the Bureaucralthouse endorses, but men would never be emotionally fragile enough to call it that, and society wouldn't embarrass them by agreeing.

To follow that up with touching is not assault and is common for any guy with a brain and a libido and no moral issue that precludes canoodling with that person.

Obviously sexless boy scouts, repressed Catholics like Tim Cain and Paul Ryan (who says women should be "revered") don't get this, or are too pressured to refrain from disagreeing. But their protest has nothing to do with the reality of how sex works in the sort of glamorous circles that those two dildos never access. They are the complete opposite of glamor and have no idea of the situation that's operative in what Trump's describing. Same with our blogress.

HT said...

It's Kaine.

Bruce Hayden said...

Why do powerful men screw around so much? Because they are wired for it, and, maybe more importantly, so are a lot of women. The Trumps, the Clintons, Kennedys, etc are horn dogs because it is so easy. Extreme success and power is one of the most powerful aphrodisiacs known to man that can be used to lure women into bed. Not surprising though that Ann doesn't seem to get this, since lawyers tend to be pretty cerebral.

My partner grew up with this, in Vegas, and was quite cynical by the time she graduated from college. She ran a store frequented by celebrities, and there were only two famous guys who didn't come on to her (Cosby and Elvis). A lot of it was pretty crude. From maybe the age of 18, one of the things that she liked to hear has been "Do you know who I am?", implying that she would readily spread her legs for them if she knew. She couldn't figure it out, but watched her better looking friends and such fall for one celebrity after another. Or, not really fall for, but sleep with, because, for the most part, they just looked at it as a conquest. A notch in their belts. Hotel and casino bosses had it esp easy, since they had easy access to beds, and a lot of good looking female help willing to bed them.

And, as I pointed out in the last thread, a lot of super alpha males strut just like Trump did there. It is often a dominance display, something that any male who has spent much time around powerful males has had to deal with. I quickly learned to just ignore it, because responding to it negatively makes the alpha have that much more power over you. He is essentially saying that he is so powerful that women essentially jump at the chance to have sex with him. A male dominance display, pure and simple.

Rhythm and Balls said...

It's Kaine.

You could have fooled me. Genesis 4:1 - 8 says differently.

buster said...

R&B @ 10:34

Lawyers are sophists. It's their job to be sophists: to use words, not to get at the truth, but to accomplish the ends of their clients, whatever they are.

grackle said...

You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint.

Don’t worry, I’m not about to vote for Clinton.

Birkel said...

Can anybody find this unwilling person from the story? I have searched and cannot find the unwilling person.

Is the unwilling person required as an element of the alleged crime? Are we still using the word alleged or has Donald Trump no longer presumed innocent?

Shall Obama go ahead and revoke the Eighth Amendments for Trump? Where shall Trump and the Deplorables be RE-educated?

jr565 said...

Except you guys are adding context to the story that inst there for example. I'm going to highlight the added words:

Grabbing an unsuspecting and unwilling person's Genitals is a criminal act of sexual assault under any definition of sexual assault."

Where is he getting this from based on what Trump said. He never said the women who's pussies he grabbed didnt know that he was going to grab their pussies.

Based on this not only do they know, they are more than willing to let him do it:

And when you’re a star, they let you do it,” Trump says. “You can do anything.”

“Whatever you want,” says another voice, apparently Bush’s.

“Grab them by the p---y,” Trump says. “You can do anything.”

Finally when he says Grab them by the pussy, he citing one example of an extreme thing tht THEY are allwoing him to do. Where is there a suggestion that these women dont know he is doing this?

Is he not describing Star Fuckers? Women who follow stars around and have sex with them? He is saying, when he was a bachelor, or possibly even when he was married, he had a bevy of women that were there at his beck and call. Star Fuckers are not victims. They enjoy being the mistresss of hte powerful man.

WHy is it that no one can envision that women sometimes are willing participants. THis is like a reverse slut shaming. Trump is the slut, with the easy girls, and now all the liberals are saying "No, no no. THese girls are VICTIMS"


jr565 said...

Shit, I'm agree with Rhythm AND Balls. WHat is the world coming to. All valid Points Rhythm. Those making these arguments sound like scolds, not aware that women have been aware of sex since the 60's and sometimes even like it (gasp) If they let a powerful man do what he wants, maybe that's BY CHOICE.It doesnt mean that they are assaulted. What the hell is the matter with people coming to this view. Are they all wearing chastity belts? There is porn on the internet, people! some women like to screw powerful men. Do you REALLY think Trump is hard up for women?

a song for your enjoyment:
Star, Star, by the Rolling STones:

https://youtu.be/iudmMgbAAmI

I bet Keith Richards despite being old enough to be Trumps dad has a beyv of chicks that are more than happy to let him grab their vagina.

jr565 said...

"Can anybody find this unwilling person from the story? I have searched and cannot find the unwilling person."
NOt even the woman who they are talking about was abused in any way. When Trump meets her, they are friendly and joking. And he tells the bus, he tried, BUT NOTHING HAPPENED. I mean, what is the problem here? Men can not hit on women when looking for furniture. WHERE IS THE STORY HERE?!

Rhythm and Balls said...

...unsuspecting...

I'm amused by the presumption here, that a willingness to actually touch a woman intimately is something about which people should actually be suspicious. You're suspect! You should know that only miscreants would ever actually TOUCH a woman there and the only way to be a truly upstanding citizen is to keep your hands far, far away from vaginas. Whether they are in your bed, on your lap, on the dance floor, in your hot tub, whatever. Context, shmontex. The only context that matters is that it's presumed that no woman would ever want any man to touch her anywhere unless papers have been signed to that effect and stamped with a seal by a public notary. This is how slave-catchers were able to kidnap free Northern blacks and put them into bondage... because their papers were missing.

We need Iranian-style goon squads to patrol our major cities and ask for notarized papers of any couples seen holding each others' hands, too.

exiledonmainstreet said...

I bet Keith Richards despite being old enough to be Trumps dad has a beyv of chicks that are more than happy to let him grab their vagina.


10/8/16, 3:12 PM

Can Keith still find their vaginas though? Is he still capable of recognizing vag as vag?

The last time I heard him talk, I wondered if he knows what planet he is on.

Alex said...

But Hillary Clinton is filled with a internal moral core right? Since the choice is between 2 fucking bastards, choose the one who is more likely to pick a non-leftist SCOTUS justice?

Darrell said...

Nancy O'Dell reports that no pussy was hurt during the recording of Trump's boast to Bush cousin, Billy Bush. The SPCA backs her up.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"repressed Catholics like Tim Cain and Paul Ryan (who says women should be "revered") don't get this"

Perhaps it's an Irish thing. Or a middle class thing. My dad and some of the other guys in our neighborhood used to hold Friday night poker parties at each other's homes. The men - all WWII vets and blue collar Catholics of Italian and Eastern European descent - would sit in our kitchen and drink and smoke and play cards long after my mom and us kids had gone to bed. Except I was a nosy little thing and would get up and sit in the hallway and listen to their talk. Those old sailors sure had some stories to tell. That's why I'm pretty umimpressed with Trump's naughty talk.

I suspect much of the puritanism (as well as the crappy aesthetics) of the American church came from the Irish hierarchy. The Irish were the first Catholics to arrive in large numbers and set the tone here. Italian, Hispanic, Eastern European, and even German Catholics have never struck me as prudes.

It is very easy for me to imagine many of the thin lipped scolds who populate Women's Studies Departments wearing habits and brandishing rulers. They would have been nuns 80 years ago.



Kirk said...

Ms. Althouse, this may be your best post ever. Thank you for providing me with a response to the Christians who still believe he is the only thing standing between them and the anti-Christ. May I use it?

richard mcenroe said...

Got news for you. For all
their posturing and
PSA's that is EXACTLY how men talk about women in the TV and film industries. They pass women around like party favors.

Rick said...

You can't trust a person with power who doesn't have an internal moral core and who is not governed by self-restraint.

That rules out both candidates.

mockturtle said...

Thank you for providing me with a response to the Christians who still believe he is the only thing standing between them and the anti-Christ.

You just don't get it, do you?

Jon Ericson said...

Skeezy don't do "get it"

Bob said...

buwaya puti said,

"I am much closer to sixty than sixteen - much, much closer.
I was much better behaved at sixteen.
What I've learned in the meantime is that so much of self restraint is wasted, pointless, and personally destructive. All that internally generated anxiety for what?"

So very, very true.

What especially occurred to me reading this comment was that women hate the guy who comes on to them when they are not attracted to him in the first place, and they have little use for the man who fails to come on to them when they are attracted to him.

I generalize a bit of course, but my sense is that the sooner a young man learns this rule of the mating game, the better he will play it.

JamesB.BKK said...

Well, well. Does not a president of the USA get to do to whomever he (or maybe she) wants whatever he (or maybe she) sees fit with abundant threats of or actual violence - if he (or maybe she) can assemble a ragtag plurality group to go along (or even not with an executive order)? Hillary has already described the many ways she intends to rape my income stream and bank balances, figuratively, but nonetheless against my will (and their will should they or could they be attributed to have mine). You could ask some Pakistanis on the receiving end of his (or her, perhaps) hellfires about such things as well.

JamesB.BKK said...

Don't all the big rich guys get hold harmless agreements from the tall girls that come on their yachts to party? I don't know. Never been. I did see the Entourage movie and thought there must have been waivers to board.

JamesB.BKK said...

What's the matter with Robby Soave and Reason Magazine? Don't they know all the "leader of the free world" does is engage in violence? Don't they know what kind of person seeks that position? The milquetoast libertarians have taken over, apparently.

boxty woot said...

Ann, you wrote that the first question was from a Teacher. Did the moderator state that when he introduced her, or was it Hillary that asked that question? If I recall correctly, Hillary asked the lady if she was a teacher. But it's such an odd question to ask. How did she guess the lady was a teacher? Was Clinton fed information on the questions or studio audience? It seemed bizarre.