August 1, 2013

I ask Glenn Loury if he thinks it was a mistake to select the George Zimmerman case to be a racial cause célèbre?

It takes a while to get to the point here, but that's part of what makes it so fascinating. Take a look:



ADDED: Here's a pithy minute of response to the question:

36 comments:

Becon said...

I ride on the sidewalk because there is an epidemic of hit and runs against cyclists and pedestrians in my city.

grackle said...

Like talking to a stone wall, talking to a liberal about Zimmerman/Martin. Evidence? Or lack of it in the trial? Doesn't make a bit of difference to a dedicated liberal. Zimmerman was profiling and therefore guilty of a racial murder. Period. End of discussion.

It was not a "mistake" to pick the Zimmerman/Martin incident to race bait. Such a stance assumes that race-mongers need "good" or "valid" incidents to inflame. They don't.

The race mongers got most of what they wanted – the fanning of racial animosity among blacks and liberals toward whites. True, they did not get Zimmerman hung but that may happen anyway if Holder decides to indict Zimmerman. And Zimmerman is marked for life.

boricuafudd said...

It is interesting that Mr.Lowry did not want to talk about the genesis of the debacle that was the Zimmerman case. I guess some things just hit too close for comfort.

But that debate is worth having as the consequences to a lot of people throughout the country were affected by that decision. People were hurt physically, emotionally and the effects are still reverberating.

Bill R said...

Loury states that the "vast, vast majority" of young Black African males have no criminal history at all.

Here are the results of a very quick search of Wikipedia,

1.
A black male born in 1991 has a 29% chance of spending time in prison at some point in his life.

2.
Nearly one in three African American males aged 20–29 are under some form of criminal justice supervision whether imprisoned, jailed, on parole or probation.

3.
One out of nine African American men will be incarcerated between the ages of 20 and 34.

Of COURSE young black males attract more attention from law enforcement than other demographic groups.

I'm a not so young white male and attract more attention from law enforcement than my grandmother.

How could I not?

donald said...

blah, blah, blah,

Intellectuals!

n.n said...

Yes, there is reason to suspect a teenager is capable of criminal and even murderous intent.

Mob Of Teens Brutally Attack Man In Heart Of Little Italy

As for Martin, if he had survived the confrontation he initiated with Zimmerman, he would now stand accused of felonious assault, attempted murder, or perhaps even murder. It was Martin who first wielded an unequal force (i.e. strength, skill) in order to subjugate Zimmerman and he did so without active provocation.

For people with a legitimate concern to prevent criminal activity (e.g. redistributive change) and preserving individual dignity (i.e. judgment with cause), then they would attempt to distinguish between cause and effect. They would inquire to know the criteria when and why a local crime is selected for national attention. They would then acknowledge that the prejudice demonstrated in this case was exhibited by individuals, including our president, who were accusing others of a biased perspective.

That said, on a related note, is "stand your ground" the principle exploited by Rosa Parks when she protested to preserve her civil right of unobstructed placement in a public domain?

As for "racial" issues, it is, in fact, tribal. There is no African or African-American per se. There are individuals with diverse genetic and cultural backgrounds who cannot be judged principally by their skin color. This is an obvious observation of people throughout Africa, and it is equally obvious of people in America, Europe, etc. The people who focus on "racial" discrimination are perpetuating its exhibition and sponsoring its development in succeeding generations.

Bill R said...

Loury states that the "vast, vast majority" of young black males are law abiding. A quick search of Wikipedia reveals.

"The likelihood of black males going to prison in their lifetime is 28% compared to 4% of white males and 16% of Hispanic males.[2]"

That is 28% includes the people convicted and imprisoned. It does not include the people convicted but not imprisoned, the people awaiting trial, the people guilty and acquitted, or the people who just haven't been caught yet.

Whatever your estimates of those numbers, the statement that the "vast, vast majority" of young black males are perfectly harmless is false.

Of course young black males attract more attention from law enforcement than I do. How could they not? I attract more attention than my grandmother. Of course I do.

On that point, if a neighborhood watch person saw my grandmother wandering through peoples' yards, he would call the police. Not because he profiled her as a burglar but because he profiled her as a person possibly suffering from dementia.

Thanks, neighborhood watch person!

Henry said...

Three observations:

1) At the risk of getting him sued, I'd say that Loury is channeling Faulkner.

2) I've given up arguing about the Zimmerman-Martin case. So many liberals made up their minds months ago; their opinions are mosquitoes trapped in amber. Yet I think that Loury, with all his hesitation, and with all his summoning of the fogs of greater context, is, in his resignation to the facts, quite convincing.

3) Jeralyn, at TalkLeft, is quite contemptuous of neighborhood watch programs. I tend to agree with her. She's another counter to the leftwing hive mind. I have referenced her in a few arguments, without success.

traditionalguy said...

One final comment on the Zimmerman Martin incident: It was the State's charging the shooter and holding a detailed trial with real believable witnesses under cross examination that ended a serious racial conflict that CNBC had started using edited Police dispatcher audio tapes.

The continual whining of frightened white guys who must still feel a need to threaten going after the DA, the Courts and the professional defense lawyers who stepped in to do their appointed jobs and to defused this situation still amazes me.

In my area 80% of the blacks now admit Zimmerman was justified. The trial of the evidence did that.

Big Mike said...

Based on past bloggingheads I decided to pass on the longer clip and go straight to the one minute money quote.

But next time you can ask Glenn Loury whether he is sufficiently aware of history to know how many Black men were lynched in the century between the end of the Civil War and the passage of the Voting Rights Act in response to the howls of the mob? As a judge Strom Thurmond sentenced a young Black man to death who by any standard was acting in self-defense. Also in response to the howls of the mob.

You might ask Glenn how it feels to be on the side of the mob in the Zimmerman case. Just sayin'

mesquito said...

I don't care. As long as Trayvon ends up in the pantheon of civil rights alongside Medger Evers and Rosa Parks, that's all that matters. Fuck the facts.

a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

Glen Loury might tune-up his racial persecution with some variation of the song 'Dreaming' if he doesn't want to know how the attention here came about, to Ann's point He can dance around the house and feel all better. This, The Zimmerman-Martin case, was a terrible case to gin up antagonism over and to get people's jaws, at least, broken over. The message to everybody not in the tribe was 'We are petulant and no way are we going to stop. We can be violent, vindictive and yet demand you see us as innocent before or after as we friggin feel like it.' As the president said the media was not a good place for a conversation (here).

William said...

Loury appears to be a person of good will and intelligence. But, for all that, he doesn't seem to have ever in his life probed the possibility that perhaps his own suspicions of the white race might be a tad overdone....This is going back, but I used to know people in Harlem who complained that the laws against petty offenses such as playing loud music or littering were never enforced in their community. If Loury is pissed about getting a ticket for riding a bike on the sidewalk, I bet you could find a neighbor who would be pissed that the cops let people ride bikes on the sidewalk in their neighborhood but not in white neighborhoods.......Also I regard young black men with a certain amount of wariness. I've been assaulted by groups of young black men three times in my life. I never got hurt, but one time I had to run into traffic (a la Howard Beach) in order to escape. It was a truly scary event. I think that if Loury had been attacked by mobs of young white men three times in his life, he would have a more circumspect attitude towards young white men.

Revenant said...

While it is true that "the vast majority" of young black men have no criminal history, Trayvon Martin did.

jr565 said...

Of course it was a mistake. They find a white black Hispanic who was having his head bashed in, and try to suggest he's a white racist who shot someone simply for being black.

If you're going with that template, it would help if the white racist were actually a white guy and not a white hispanic with a black grandmother.

Henry said...

Revenant wrote:

While it is true that "the vast majority" of young black men have no criminal history, Trayvon Martin did.

Zing.

Glad to see you here. You and Paladian are the two voices I've missed most.

Christina Reyes said...

uh, guys, Zimmerman was not a "white Hispanic", at least in the way race is recognized in South America. He is a "metziso", with mixed Indian and European blood, like most Mexican or Central American immigrants.

In Zimmerman's case, black blood, so maybe we should call him a "mulatto".

A "White Hispanic" is someone with pure European ancestry, like Simon Bolivar or Bernardo O'Higgins.

An "Asian Hispanic" is someone with Asian ancestry, like Alfredo Fujimora.

MayBee said...

The vast majority of *men* don't have a criminal history, but I'm still not getting in the parking garage elevator with one alone at night.

jr565 said...

The media and the race baiters feel like we need to have a discussion about race and blacks being profiled, and so construct a narrative, which they assume must be accepted whole.And they all jump on the bandwagon, pushing that narrative, with their supplied facts.

Only, if you reject the narrative outright, (and I do) then this case is a simple self defense case involving two minorities who got into a fight, and one of them died. Take the facts, and weigh them simply, and you realize race is incidental to this case.
Blacks may have a point about cops profiling blacks, but that doesn't mean that the point is relevant in this case, simply because Trayvon happened to be black and died.

Same with the idea that whites are racist and our hunting blacks. Statistically, its blacks killing each other that is the more worrisome trend for blacks, but even if we are to cede the point, its again not relevant in this case, considering Zimmerman is not what I would consider white.
The guy who shot Medgar Evers was white. A mixed race Hispanic with a black grandmother may have some whiteness in his lineage, but most people wouldn't identify him as white per se.

And as for defending Zimmerman, if its a racial matter, why would self identified white racists care? yes, Trayvon was black, but its not as if white racists are big on supporting mixed race Hispanics (who they would probably call mongrels).

Is there really a need to have a racial dialog when one side is supplying the facts that would fuel that dialog, but those facts aren't real and don't fit the dialog we're supposed to have?
Yes, racial profiling sucks, and yes white racism is bad, but what does that have to do with THIS case? Must every shooting of a black kid be morphed into a white versus black racial duscussion, if the shooter is remotely white?

Because if Trayvon were shot by a brother, no one outside his immediate family would give two shits. Certainly not the media.

tds said...

Martin/Zimmerman case was a great pick under assumption that Whites were indeed racist.

White jury, judge and prosecution would sentence Zimmerman for second degree murder. This would be a win-win scenario for White racists:

- a black teenager dead,
- a Hispanic Obamavoter with a long-term prison sentence.

White racism would be amplified by the fact, that the sentence would make no legal sense.

Setup failed however despite best efforts of racist judge and prosecution, because White jury stubbornly refused to sentence Zimmerman.

LarsPorsena said...

Henry said...

Revenant wrote:

While it is true that "the vast majority" of young black men have no criminal history, Trayvon Martin did.

Zing.

Glad to see you here. You and Paladian are the two voices I've missed most.

8/1/13, 10:13 PM

Me too. Add Pogo and AllenS

cubanbob said...

The left needs a better poster boy. Maybe it's because I'm a cranky middles-aged privilidged white guy but I just can't get worked up enough to give a crap about a dead wannabe thug whose thuggery lead to his death. I know, I'm irredeemably bad.

Jerry Goldblatt said...

n n:

Stand your ground has its roots in common law. SYG is the rule for self defense in federal jurisdiction by court precedent. In fact where the law is silent, SYG is the standard for self defense. The reason is that the honest man has the right of way over the criminal.

Few Progressives understand SYG and I doubt they could even articulate why they oppose it.

Smilin' Jack said...

Zimmerman was profiling and therefore guilty of a racial murder.

The amusing irony is that Zimmerman wasn't racial profiling enough. He was thinking "Black kid = probable burglar, I'll check him out," when he should have been thinking, "Black kid = probable violent thug, I'll stay in my car till the cops get here."

Shanna said...

The vast majority of *men* don't have a criminal history, but I'm still not getting in the parking garage elevator with one alone at night.

Indeed. I am really sorry for all these men who feel unfairly profiled, but maybe they would feel better if they realized that women habitually do threat assessments on strange men and maybe they shouldn't take it so personally.

mdgiles said...

Couple of points. First off, far too many of the commentators use the behavior of other blacks in another time, at another place, to justify suspicion of all blacks. And what exactly is "racist" in asking why this particular teenager was deemed suspicious?

mdgiles said...

A commentator above made some statements in reference to "black criminality", stating the black incarceration rates, etc. What he doesn't seem to understand - or perhaps not want to - is that those figures are distorted by the facts that they count criminal defendants as if each act is committed by a new individual. As opposed to the same individuals appearing over and over again. It's along the line of the oft quoted statistic that 50% of marriages end in divorce. What that statistic never takes into account is the number of people who engage in multiple marriages. For example, one Elizabeth Taylor equals seven ordinary people. It distorts the numbers when you count those multiples, as discrete individuals.

cubanbob said...

The amusing irony is that Zimmerman wasn't racial profiling enough. He was thinking "Black kid = probable burglar, I'll check him out," when he should have been thinking, "Black kid = probable violent thug, I'll stay in my car till the cops get here."

Best summation evah! But don't post that on a lefty intolerant blog. You'll get death threats. Sorry about busting the comments policy but this one merits an exception.

Davod said...

I would suggest the White Hispanic meme came about because the racial motive of White against Black had already started by the time the ratbags discovered Zimmerman was Hispanic.

Big Mike said...

I just cannot let this pass anymore. Way too many people have lept to the conclusion that Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin because he was black. First of all, the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Zimmerman lived is diverse. There are plenty of Black people living there. Yet another Black person in the community would not be a surprise to Zimmerman or anyone else.

According to Zimmerman's recorded message to police, Trayvon Martin was just standing around, not on a walkway, apparently looking into people's houses, despite the fact that it was raining. If you don't believe me about the rain, you can go look it up on weather underground. This. Is. Suspicious. Behavior.

George Zimmerman was justified in calling the police, just as our legal system has determined that he was legally justified in defending himself under the circumstances of getting the sh*t beaten out of him by a young, athletic, man four inches taller.

jr565 said...

Medflies wrote:

Couple of points. First off, far too many of the commentators use the behavior of other blacks in another time, at another place, to justify suspicion of all blacks. And what exactly is "racist" in asking why this particular teenager was deemed suspicious?

why must one assume racism when coming to the conclusion that Trayvon was suspicious?
Tht Zimmerman was suspicious of one black doesnt mean that he is suspicious of all blacks or even that his blackness was what caused suspicion.
As detailed in the 911 call, Zimmerman isn't 100%sure that TM is in fact black until he gets closer to the car. Itgoesfeom "he looks black" to, later in the conversation "he's black. Meaning, he's providing additional info to corroborate his initial assumption. If he knew he was black the whole time, he would havesaid "He's black" at the beginning.

As to what would makeTM suspicious? he was t walking down the sidewalk, he was in a baed community. After dark, and looking in windows and darting between houses.

Now, ill admit that he was a guest, but thats irrelevant if GZ has no idea who he is. GZ wasn't told that TM wasstaying at someone's house (and apparenrly wasnt even told tht the neighborhood had a neighborhood watch, so be careful). If you don't know someone and they are walking in a gated community, after hours, and they re looking in windows its suspicious behavior.

I don't understand why people have a problem with this concept. Gated community is like a building with security. If someone is wandering the holes and wasnt admitted by security, then its suspicious. Because they aren't supposed to be there. Now perhaps, there is an innocent explanation. Maybe somebody brought there kid to work and walked in without letting security know. And the kid is now wandering the halls looking for the bathroom.
If a security guard sees someone wandering the halls who shouldn't be there, and they don't know who that person is, thatis the definition of suspicious behavior.

And what kind of standard do blacks want when it comes to gated communities? That if they are black, but don't live there, that no one can even view their being there as suspicious if they see them wandering the streets after hours looking in windows?

jr565 said...

Davod wrote:
would suggest the White Hispanic meme came about because the racial motive of White against Black had already started by the time the ratbags discovered Zimmerman was Hispanic.


Exactly! As soon as they heard that the name was Zimmerman they jumped on the white man killed defenseless black boy template since they were pushing the racial angle from the get go. How many Hispanics have a last name of Zimmerman?
Then when it turns out he was Hispanic and had a white dad, they changed his race to White Hispanic, because it still (sort of) fit into their white racism template.

Only, who do we call White Hispanics? is Obama a white black, because his mom is white?

One of many false facts pushed by the media in their attempt to lynch a minority for the crime of being partially white. Even if they had to indict him on made up facts.

jr565 said...

Watch the Rachel Jaentel interview with Piers Morgan (part 2).
Check out the reaction of the lady in green when Jaentel makes the distinction between bashing and whoop ass.

Piers Morgan interview with Jaentel

You see, TM was not bashing GZ's head in, he was just whooping his ass. so, there was no reason to fear for his life.
I'm not sure I would get the distinction were it my head being bashed (oh excuse me, if i was getting my ass whooped) but I guess white hispanics should know the difference and not overreact.

Rob Jab said...

Suppose Glenn was told that someone had reported a stranger in their neighborhood, walking between houses @ 2 am. Would it really matter that the vast majority of people of that person's race, age, gender etc. were non-criminals? No, it'd be irrelevant. The relevant population group would be restricted to strangers who walk between houses @ 2 am, and any other information available.

Now, Zimmerman saw Trayvon @ 7 pm, not 2 am. But he did provide a set of qualifiers (recent crime in the neighborhood, a stranger, dark rainy night, Trayvon stopping, looking around etc.). You can debate whether his criteria were reasonable but the percentage of criminals in a particular ethnic or age group would not be very relevant.

Here's a pretty good breakdown of how race relates to Zimmerman's previous calls to police.
http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/07/what-do-zimmermans-calls-to-police-show-about-his-view-of-black-men-.html

LeaNder said...

Anne, you look completely nice, but Glenn Loury, looks nice and seems human, so I would rate him above your peculiar type "polite" complacency" (I usually use a different word here starting with "h")

Trayvon Martin had 1 minute and 13 seconds to understand what this man was about before he was shot was fired and after the call with his friend was interrupted. ONE MINUTE AND THIRTEEN SECONDS to find out,he was suspcious because there had been burglaries before and because he walked too slow in the rain. I doubt he realized before he died.

I am a foreigner, and no one pushed me to get interested in the case. The case had and still has such enormous meaning for me because the people that believe and act on their misguided fata morganas are everywhere.

There is also absolutely no doubt that Zimmerman suspected Trayvon because of his age and color, it s-e-e-m-e-d fit the age and color of some of the burglars caught. He simply assumed things about Trayvon and acted based on this suspicion.


I will never forget Trayvon Martin's all my life, and I hope so will others.

Besides just as Loury ride my bike to my doorsteps on the sidewalk. Maybe you start to pay attention that some of us who do this take great care to not bother anybody walking there? Ever noticed we are not all the same.

There is a concept over here in Europe which is known as Shared Space. Shared space means always look out for the other used be it sidewalk or street.

Are you so taken to George Zimmerman because you have the same problems to differentiate? All bikers using the sidewalk are one and the same?

LeaNder said...

Anne, you look completely nice, but Glenn Loury, looks nice and seems human, so I would rate him above your peculiar type "polite" complacency" (I usually use a different word here starting with "h")

Trayvon Martin had 1 minute and 13 seconds to understand what this man was about before he was shot was fired and after the call with his friend was interrupted. ONE MINUTE AND THIRTEEN SECONDS to find out,he was suspcious because there had been burglaries before and because he walked too slow in the rain. I doubt he realized before he died.

I am a foreigner, and no one pushed me to get interested in the case. The case had and still has such enormous meaning for me because the people that believe and act on their misguided fata morganas are everywhere.

There is also absolutely no doubt that Zimmerman suspected Trayvon because of his age and color, it s-e-e-m-e-d fit the age and color of some of the burglars caught. He simply assumed things about Trayvon and acted based on this suspicion.


I will never forget Trayvon Martin's all my life, and I hope so will others.

Besides just as Loury ride my bike to my doorsteps on the sidewalk. Maybe you start to pay attention that some of us who do this take great care to not bother anybody walking there? Ever noticed we are not all the same.

There is a concept over here in Europe which is known as Shared Space. Shared space means always look out for the other used be it sidewalk or street.

Are you so taken to George Zimmerman because you have the same problems to differentiate? All bikers using the sidewalk are one and the same?