March 19, 2013

"Can you accidentally do a Nazi salute?"

"A 20-year-old Greek footballer has been banned for life from playing for his national team after a controversial goal celebration in which he appeared to give a Nazi salute. The player says he hadn't understood the meaning of the gesture — but is it possible, in 2013, for a European to be so poorly informed?"

69 comments:

Lonetown said...

Maybe their schools are as bad as ours.

tacotaco said...

before people start making ridiculous statements, please remember that none of us likely knows about the Greek education system, the way that system interacts with youth sport training, Greek popular culture, or the meaning that the Nazi salute holds in Greek society.

unless you're actually from Greece. In that case, please go ahead with the ridiculous statements

chickelit said...

The evidence looks prima fascia

The Drill SGT said...

Well, he doesn't know where to place his thumb :)



LarsPorsena said...

If he would have clenched that fist he would be receiving a standing 'O'.

virgil xenophon said...

Easy, guys, he was just waving to friends, can't you tell that?

Scugger said...

If he had pulled his pants down below his buttocks and put three fingers up with both hands like a gangsta he'd be on Letterman and MVP of the League. I think you have to cut the guy some slack. He was emotional as hell and his body just reacted. So now I'm giving a nazi salute when I go into a bar and recognize a buddy and shoot a hand straight out palm flat without waving? Give me a break.

Roy Jacobsen said...

Of course somebody can be that ignorant.

You want proof? Watch MSNBC for a few minutes.

Original Mike said...

Can you say overreaction?

There. I knew you could.

PaulV said...

I thought they were upset that a Greek used the Imperial Roman salute.

PaulV said...

I thought they were upset that a Greek used the Imperial Roman salute.

MadisonMan said...

Can you unknowingly commit three felonies a day?

furious_a said...
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James said...
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Gahrie said...

Everybody (including Americans) used to use the "NAZI salute" before the NAZIs did. It is indeed a throwback to Imperial Rome.

There is a strong Facist party in Greece right now, and given the current economic situation, a real reason to fear the return of fascism. I understand the reaction to the salute.

What interests me is the fact that this salute has been so tainted by being associated with the NAZIs that it is now off limits, yet stuff associated with communism and communists, who were ever bit as evil and guilty of atrocity as the NAZIs, is OK with people.

James said...

He's an idiot and the ban is fully deserved. Later he went on Twitter and claimed he was "pointing" at at team mate in the stands who was recovering from an injury.

Ever heard of the Golden Dawn party in Greece?

furious_a said...

I thought they were upset that a Greek used the Imperial Roman salute.

The Eastern Empire adopted the same salute in their army, so the young man was simply acknowledging modern Greece's cultural inheritance from the Byzantines.

Third Coast said...

"Can you accidentally do a Nazi salute?"
I think Peter Sellers had this problem.

Dante said...

Nothing to see here. Ann seems quite supportive of Gays out to stifle people's livelihoods if they advocate against SSM, or whatever. Don't worry, it will be here soon too.

And Ignorance is no excuse. We must all be abreast of the latest PCisms, and must use the approved words, gestures, etc.

Original Mike said...

"Ever heard of the Golden Dawn party in Greece?"

There's evidence he's associated? If so, I'll change my mind.

virgil xenophon said...

IIRC the Roman salute began with the crossing of one's chest with the right hand with fist beating upon heart, thence away and upwards in a sweeping motion into the "Nazi" position--all in one continuous motion..

St. George said...

In 1993, the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) included the following open-ended question in its General Social Survey of random samples of non-institutionalized Americans aged eighteen years and older:

There have been a lot of national and world events and changes over the past 60 years --- say, from about 1930 right up until today. Would you mention one or two such events.

Sixteen percent of the 1606 respondents either didn't know or couldn't think of any such event.

The remainder identified at least four. The most frequently mentioned incidents included: the fall of Communism (mentioned by 32% of the respondents), World War II (by 19%), the space program (15%), civil rights (12%), and the assassination of President John F. Kennedy (11%).

Memories of the painful 1930s failed to surface: only 3.8% of the respondents mentioned the Great Depression and but .9% mentioned Franklin D. Roosevelt or his administration.

Less than one out of five respondents mentioned World War II or any of its associated events (e.g., Pearl Harbor or the atomic blasts at Hiroshima and Nagasaki). Such absence of reference to what was the defining event of the past sixty years is not because the war's participants have died out with its memories.

St. George said...

Source for above....http://www.trinity.edu/mkearl/histignr.html

edutcher said...

Greece had a very rough time under the Krauts.

It's possible, under some weird PC law, he never saw any of the old newsreels, but he probably saw a few old movies from Blighty and the US.

AllenS said...

Do you ever wonder if the Hitler moustache will ever be popular? Yeah, me neither.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

— but is it possible, in 2013, for a European to be so poorly informed?"

Of course it is. It is the progressive way.

Look how stupid, uneducated and illiterate our students are. Ask any high school student who we were fighting in WWII and who our allies were, and see how ill informed they are.

Colonel Angus said...

Memories of the painful 1930s failed to surface: only 3.8% of the respondents mentioned the Great Depression and but .9% mentioned Franklin D. Roosevelt or his administration.

This isn't that surprising. Much of the Depression and WW2 generation has died out so most of the respondents have little to relate to either event. It's also not a shock that for most, history is boring, dull and irrelevant to their lives. I don't agree, just realistic of the facts.

Should this guy have been banned? Well in Greece do as the Greeks do. Freedom of expression and speech is a bit more cherished here than in 'progressive' Europe.

I do note that paying homage to communists and communism is still chic though despite the 100 million plus body count they wrought.

tiger said...

The guy was un-informed and an idiot.

The 'life-time ban' for playing on the national team is stupid.

On the other hand Nazism still carries a lasting impression over there as well it should.

Bob Ellison said...

Dust Bunny Queen said "Ask any high school student who we were fighting in WWII and who our allies were, and see how ill informed they are."

When I was in high school in the 1980s, our economics teacher asked for a show of hands on whom America's primary enemy was in WW2. He said "Germany", and very few hands went up. Same for Japan. He said "Russia", and more than half the hands went up.

People are stupid and ignorant. Things don't change.

Bob Ellison said...

Uh, *who. Darn it.

DADvocate said...

What interests me is the fact that this salute has been so tainted by being associated with the NAZIs that it is now off limits, yet stuff associated with communism and communists, who were ever bit as evil and guilty of atrocity as the NAZIs, is OK with people.

I wonder how many people know that Stalin and Mao slaughtered many millions of more people than the Nazis.

Skyler said...

The Nazis were also known to shake hands and also blink their eyes. Sometimes they were known to walk or run. I don't suppose we should do any of those things anymore either.

Better not hold your arm out in Greece. In the time I graduated from Notre Dame, every year at Commencement exercises, the President, Fr. Ted Hesburg, would ask all the parents to hold their hands over the student body to bestow a blessing on them. Of course this became known as the nazi blessing. Besides the joking, no one was offended.

Incidentally, the marching band would march out to the game with the Roman salute every fourth step. The nazis took on the Roman salute. And the swastika is much older than the nazis, too.

SOme people are too wrapped up in recent history without realizing that they don't know the rest of history.

furious_a said...

...one of the great unexplained phenomena of modern astronomy: namely, that the dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe. -- Tom Wolfe.

European football is notorious for its hooliganism, and the young men who comprise the core of the quite-often organized violence at matches have been a target demographic of nationalist and neo-nazi recruitment since Britain's National Front's heyday in the '70s.

Neo-nazi displays, Jew-baiting cheers, and racist abuse of African players (thrown bananas, monkey chants) are common as well at stadiums in Poland (LKS, Widzew), Italy (Lazio), Britain (West Ham), Germany (Borussia Dortmund). This is just a partial list and of just first-tier teams.

Sorry, Mr. Katidis was playing to the yobbos in the stands. He knew what he was doing.

Skyler said...

chickelit said...
The evidence looks prima fascia

Chickelit for the win!

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...
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SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

But this is perfectly OK I guess?

link

virgil xenophon said...

furious_a is spot on. This all has a deep tradition in European soccer.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

But this is OK I guess?

YES it is!!

When exactly is it that we lost all ability to laugh at ourselves, make fun and not be so excessively fearful about offending everyone? Just when DID this fascist repression of humor occur? I think it started in the lake 1970's when the political correctness movement began.

Think of the movies that were made THEN that will never be 'allowed' to be created now. Practically anything by Mel Brooks. Airplane. All the Naked Gun movies. Everything Monty Python And more!! I loved those....they insulted and made fun of everyone.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

X said...

Can you accidentally do a Nazi salute?

I can envision C4 letting one or two a day slip out.

Cedarford said...

Skyler - Incidentally, the marching band would march out to the game with the Roman salute every fourth step. The nazis took on the Roman salute. And the swastika is much older than the nazis, too.

SOme people are too wrapped up in recent history without realizing that they don't know the rest of history.


And so the friction natually happens...elements of the fading WWII generation, that ambitiously sought to ban all manifestations of ancient traditions appropriated by a 13 year long German regime...are now a little hysterical.
Their "eradicated from history, forever" bans on swastikas, orthodox christianity in Russia, people openly criticising the Party in China, Roman salutes, and bans on criticism of special designated "victim groups" appear to be fading in the last years of their influence.

Cedarford said...

Skyler - Incidentally, the marching band would march out to the game with the Roman salute every fourth step. The nazis took on the Roman salute. And the swastika is much older than the nazis, too.

SOme people are too wrapped up in recent history without realizing that they don't know the rest of history.


And so the friction natually happens...elements of the fading WWII generation, that ambitiously sought to ban all manifestations of ancient traditions appropriated by a 13 year long German regime...are now a little hysterical.
Their "eradicated from history, forever" bans on swastikas, orthodox christianity in Russia, people openly criticising the Party in China, Roman salutes, and bans on criticism of special designated "victim groups" appear to be fading in the last years of their influence.

bgates said...

is it possible, in 2013, for a European to be so poorly informed?

Is it reasonable, in 2013, to describe a continent that seems in broad agreement that all the problems of National Socialism are contained in the word "National" as well informed?

elkh1 said...

"is it possible, in 2013, for a European to be so poorly informed?"

Of course, the navel gazers believe history began and ended with them. They co-opted the Roman salute, and the Buddhist/Hindi swastika as their own 20th century creations.

Btw, the first Hobbit movie used that salute too.

jr565 said...

Prince Albert dressed like a nazi for Halloween. He faced some anger and ridicule, but then went on with his life. This guy made a gesture tht may or may not be a nazi salute.
If he had mde a fist like the black Olympiads did, it would be applauded as speaking truth to power.
But should he get a lifetime ban for raising is arm?

Geoff Matthews said...

Why is this ONLY a Nazi salute? Why can't it also be another type of salute?
Are Nazis still this dangerous?

Original Mike said...

"Are Nazis still this dangerous?"

Only Illinois Nazis.

William said...

I would guess that ignorance more than malice motivates most human affairs, but it's difficult to say absolutely either way--especially among soccer players and fans. Such people seem to have such infinite reserves of ignorance and malice that it's hard to measure which the prime determinant of their behavior......The kid apologized. If he doesn't have any affiliation with far right groups, I would accept his plea of ignorance. A lifetime ban seems extreme. Beyond that it gives the salute a dark potency that will only make it more appealing to the assholes.

cubanbob said...

tacotaco said...
before people start making ridiculous statements, please remember that none of us likely knows about the Greek education system, the way that system interacts with youth sport training, Greek popular culture, or the meaning that the Nazi salute holds in Greek society.

unless you're actually from Greece. In that case, please go ahead with the ridiculous statements

3/19/13, 8:13 AM

You may have missed studying in history that Greece was brutally occupied by the Nazi's during WW2. I could be wrong but I rather doubt that fact isn't taught in Greek schools.

Anglelyne said...

He's an idiot and the ban is fully deserved. Later he went on Twitter and claimed he was "pointing" at at team mate in the stands who was recovering from an injury.

Ever heard of the Golden Dawn party in Greece?


Funny how all decent, respectable people are supposed to be so scandalized by Golden Dawn and its like. (Because we all know where that sort of thing leads!) Communist parties have held seats in European parliaments since forever, and nobody loses jobs for supporting them. (Eggs, omelettes, what's the problem?)

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

It's funny that many who rightly abhor the end-of-the-line National Socialists of 1930's Germany, seem completely unconcerned about the current train track the American Progressives are locked on to.

Gahrie said...

Funny how all decent, respectable people are supposed to be so scandalized by Golden Dawn and its like. (Because we all know where that sort of thing leads!) Communist parties have held seats in European parliaments since forever, and nobody loses jobs for supporting them. (Eggs, omelettes, what's the problem?)

Yes the Left has been entirely hypocritical on the subject, but the proper response is to run the Communists out of politics, not allow the Fascists in.

SJ said...

I've seen a photograph of an old statue.

Some guy named Augustus is giving the Nazi salute. Or a good imitation of it.

Should those be removed from Greece? from Italy?

n.n said...

It happens every day.

Hitler, Obama, Clinton, Bush, et al offer the "Nazi" salute

Since the guy was banned for life, I assume that this is a serious issue.

n.n said...

You know, this reminds me of another Pandora's Box: Urban Dictionary.

At this rate, all gestures and language will be banned in order to protect a diverse cluster of sensitivities.

With the gesture ban, we will be immobilized.

With a language ban, we will be silenced.

Forward... to dysfunctional convergence.

furious_a said...

Undated photos of legionaries giving the Roman salute.

Legionaries, especially those recruited from subject peoples like the Celts, Germans and Illyrians, often attached swastika charms (symbols of their respective deities) along with unit and commendation badges to their sword belts.

Sam L. said...

On the other hand, isn't he signalling that he got the goal? And isn't his thumb in the wrong place for the Nazi salute?

koivwvia said...

n.n's photo montage settles it.

When humans have accomplished such a mediocrity of minds - thinking that an exuberant soccer player celebrating a goal is somehow going to leave the field, dig up Hitler's bones, and reimpose Nazism on us all over again . . .

It's time for a beer or three.

Sheesh!

Anglelyne said...

Gahrie: Yes the Left has been entirely hypocritical on the subject, but the proper response is to run the Communists out of politics, not allow the Fascists in.

Simples!

Uh, wait. Who gets to decide who gets to run whom out of politics? There's some impartial referee out there who gets to arbitrate who's beyond the pale? I'm aware there are people who think they're qualified for the job, but right now they just seem to be exacerbating the conditions that give commies and fascists traction among the electorate in the first place. With the banning and the censoring and the deprivation of livelihood and stuff...

n.n said...

koivwvia:

It's circumstantial evidence. On its own it means nothing. Perhaps with a preponderance of evidence, or a successful divination of intent, then there would be a story worth telling. As it is, this ban, and story, presume a guilt, and thereby serve as an intimidation tactic. This is how the human and civil rights "movements" have devolved.

EMD said...

Yes the Left has been entirely hypocritical on the subject, but the proper response is to run the Communists out of politics, not allow the Fascists in.

The secret is to let them all in, but beat them squarely with better ideas.

EMD said...

Compare FIFA's anti-racism campaign to that of the NFL.

What's that? The NFL doesn't have a high-profile anti-racism campaign?

Hmm ...

Cedarford said...

There was a certain amount of arrogance in the post WWII Americans, Euros, and Soviets that they could order the world's future by creating things like the UN to end all war forever, the World Bank to end all poverty forever, the Soviets thinking they could 'educate' masses globally on the folly of religion and capitalism.

In that hubris, another thing that was popular 70 years ago was lawyers and elites thinking laws to control behavior (racism) and expression of forbidden "symbolic" things the Victors wanted forbidden (for all remaining human history)...even if the symbols were ancient and the Nazis appropriating swastikas and Japs appropriating 1,000 year old Buddhist symbols into militaristic Shinto were just the latest in a long line of users that had nothing to do with WWII.

As the WWII generation disappears, the bans will eventually end. And institutions sink or swim on their own merits vs. sit on 70 year old claims of a bygone generation that the UN, for example, will soon end all war...

furious_a said...

but the proper response is to run the Communists out of politics, not allow the Fascists in.

...except that official proscription of fascist speech and regalia from public display enabled the sundry Euro National Front-type groups to appropriate them and propagate them through fringe conduits like hate-metal raves and soccer hooliganism.

Gahrie said...

except that official proscription of fascist speech and regalia from public display enabled the sundry Euro National Front-type groups to appropriate them and propagate them through fringe conduits like hate-metal raves and soccer hooliganism.

Just to be clear, I don't advocate prosciption by the government. I advocate shaming and shunning by the people.

phx said...

I just read the one story from the BBC or something. It did sound like he was clueless. Although it also sounded like he lied about "pointing to the stands".

Unless there's proof he knew it was a nazi salute I say banning for life is just too strong. I favor a little forgiveness here.

ampersand said...

Are our cab drivers a secret nazi fifth column?
I see a lot of them saluted that way.

bagoh20 said...

Wow. When you think of all the things he could do and not get such a severe punishment. A simple salute? A momentary expression hurting no one, and quite possibly meaning nothing in particular? Strange times. P.C. is scarier than a Nazi, because, well it's just like what a Nazi would do with the power that the PC crowd now has.

betamax3000 said...

I was just hoping this would let us ban Soccer. No more synchronized lawn dancing. Nazi or no.

AlanKH said...

"Can you accidentally do a Nazi salute?"

Yes.