February 21, 2013

Scott Walker proposes expanding the school voucher program beyond Milwaukee and Racine...

... to 9 new districts, including — gasp! — Madison.

Here's what Walker said last night in his budget speech:
For communities where some schools fail to meet expectations, we include an expansion of the parental choice program in this budget. Since wealthy families have a choice because they can pay to send their children to a private school, we give low income and middle class families an opportunity to also choose a viable alternative for their sons and daughters.

Interestingly, some communities have both high-performing schools, as well as some that fail to meet expectations. Green Bay is a good example. Keller Elementary in Green Bay is a school where more than 70 percent of students are economically disadvantaged, yet Keller Elementary exceeds expectations. In this budget, schools like this will be eligible for a performance reward. At the same time, in that same district, there are other schools that fail to meet expectations. Other districts like Madison, Beloit, Sheboygan, and West Allis/West Milwaukee have similar situations.
People in Madison like to think we have fabulous public schools, so it's rough seeing Madison grouped with those other places. And of course, people in Madison tend to loathe Governor Walker. Obviously, the liberal viewpoint is that if there's a problem with the public schools, more money should be given to those public schools, not diverted into private schools. Here's the discussion in the forum over at the Isthmus, where liberal Madisonians tend to talk amongst themselves (and where Meade injects a bit of the kind of diversity they don't celebrate). I love the way the separation-of-church-and-state topic is playing out. First:
Does it bother you that taxpayer money will be spent for sectarian religious instruction?
Someone else:
If my kid went to a school with overcrowded classrooms and wasn't getting the attention he or she needed for whatever reason, I wouldn't hesitate sending him to a Catholic school if I could for free. Would you? Would you put up with a crappy classroom just because you didn't want your kid to take a half-hour of Bible study each day? I don't know many parents who would in a similar situation....
A third person (boldface added):
I don't think anybody's really upset about vouchers to send kids to Catholic schools. The Catholic schools can't take many more kids, but they are run by local parishes and nuns with good intentions and without a profit motive. It's not foremost a constitutional issue but a quality one. We're upset about a bunch of profit-motive business types setting up private schools to make money for themselves by providing services that work poorly and exploit public funding the same way the University of Phoenix does with adult students. Why anybody thinks replacing so-called overpaid teachers with overpaid executives is an improvement beats me. And that's exactly what we'll get if we don't guard against it at every turn.
The lefties really hate business! Meade provides the comic pushback. Quoting "bunch of profit-motive business types":
But enough about the teachers' unions. School choice is coming to Madison. Choice is good.

107 comments:

Renee said...

We are getting one of those for-profit SABIS schools in Lowell, MA. Many of them do not accept special ed or behavior problems. If you take public money, you should have to deal with public problems. You shouldn't be able to expelled/kick out students like in a private.

One child in public b/c of special ed needs, and three in Catholic School. Because, well we're Catholic. I would hate to see Catholic students, who have average academic performance to be denied an education over a non-Catholic student so the school's academic reputation look better.

I would love a full Catholic education for my special needs child, but with it being private pay there is a budget for the parish. The reason why we don't take public money, is so it can be Catholic. The parish school answers to the parish/archdiocese/Church, not to the public tax dollar.

Some Catholic schools are be so secular/private, the Church's teachings are loss. Better off in public, and just taking them to Church on Sundays/Holy Days and have a good parish staff in religious ed.

Synova said...

What gets me most about this is... nothing is stopping any of these educators from starting their own wonderful school that will set the standard.

Surfed said...

A school is nothing more than a relection of either one or two things in combination:
a. It's a mirror of the neighborhood it resides in or
b. It's a relection of the human students that walk it's halls.

It all depends on where the school is built and/or the clientele you allow through the doors.

JAL said...

University of Phoenix

HAHA!!

Founded by one of Obama's big supporters and donators!

Scott M said...

And of course, people in Madison tend to loathe Governor Walker.

Oh, come on. Where is the evidence to back up this claim?

Synova said...

Renee, special needs kids have special needs. I know that mainstreaming was the catch phrase and probably still is but why should a school be set up to serve all students? The strength in school choice is matching the student to the school and school to the family.

Vouchers are never large enough to cover the expense of a special needs student anyway. They're usually about (or a little less) than what it costs to educate an entirely trouble-free learner.

Perhaps the answer would be to give special needs kids vouchers that match what it costs to have them in school?

Ann Althouse said...

"What gets me most about this is... nothing is stopping any of these educators from starting their own wonderful school that will set the standard."

And if they could do that, they'd be the kind of people with values and expertise that they could pass on to the next generation. What are the values and skills that the public-school teachers represent? Anti-business, anti-profit-motive, government can run things best...

Surfed said...

Personally, as a teacher in an inner city school targeting inner city youth, refugees and immigrants, I sent my daughter to twelve years of Catholic Schools where she got a great liberal arts college prep education. It cost ma an arm and a leg and was worth every penny. She is now a very successful person.

JAL said...

So the administrators of the "public" schools don't get paid?

JAL said...

"What gets me most about this is... nothing is stopping any of these educators from starting their own wonderful school that will set the standard."

Isn't that what charter schools are supposed to do /be? (Serious question -- they do tend to be successful around here in NC.)

Surfed said...

The "f"'s on my computer keyboard are not striking unless paid singular attention to.

mccullough said...

Renee,

You should send all your kids to public school and provide religious instruction yourself. It's cheaper.

edutcher said...

Lefties are Pro-Choice.

Except when they're not.

Surfed said...

A school is nothing more than a relection of either one or two things in combination:

Reflection, correct?

edutcher said...

Lefties are Pro-Choice.

Except when they're not.

Levi Starks said...

I refuse to buy into the myth that there are any underperforming schools.
I know this to be true because I remember Hearing President Obama in his first state of the union address 4 years ago, He said we would take ineffective teachers out of the classroom and retrain them to do something else.
So don't you see Obama has already spoken. Problem solved, move on....

Achilles said...

School choice is coming one way or another. If schools cannot provide the innovation necessary to improve education the Internet will become the classroom of choice where effective teachers will be able to amplify their voice. The biggest problem the left has with school choice is it forces competition and results. They don't like to have to actually educate children. Sure the individual teachers care. I know many great teachers. But Public education has become a tool at the national level to indoctrinate youth and push subjects into the class room that many parents don't want.

After parents are given a choice the national organizations like the NEA will lose their ability to push their views on students as well as their ability to funnel money to the democrat party. I personally hope that we will get to see the good teachers rightly being sought after by schools looking to provide a quality product to attract parents and students. I will not cry when the leaches of the teachers union cannot meet performance standards and are not retained.

AllenS said...

I know a black couple in St. Paul who worked overtime whenever offered and took on extra jobs in order to have enough money to send their two girls to a Catholic school.

traditionalguy said...

Charter schools are the best answer, but the fight against their existence goes on in Georgia as we speak.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Good for Walker. Good for the parents and students of Madison.

Bad for fat, divorced, union worshipping idiots whose educational level topped out in high school.

This makes me smile.

Bryan C said...

"Many of them do not accept special ed or behavior problems. If you take public money, you should have to deal with public problems. You shouldn't be able to expelled/kick out students like in a private."

It isn't public money. It's always just the parents' money. Unfortunately the government won't let them keep it. They take it away, via taxes, and then want to control how you spend it when they generously give some of it back.

"The reason why we don't take public money, is so it can be Catholic. The parish school answers to the parish/archdiocese/Church, not to the public tax dollar."

That's a valid concern. The obvious answer is to let everyone keep their own money and pay for the schooling of their choice.

Mike said...

Renee why would elementary and secondary schools that are private not have the same freedom that private colleges (all but one of which take "public money) have to deal with disruption or bad actors as they see fit?

Schools run by and for the teachers unions can deal with the unruly and "special" cases. They get plenty of extra federal dollars to do that! Trust me, I was specia; ed. teacher and theirs a whole bureaucracy in every district that exists solely to get Title II moneys and other grants for special ed. purposes.

David said...

All the Madison complaints are variations of "I've got mine."

Liberals are the new conservatives.

garage mahal said...

What's the success story of voucher schools in Wisconsin? Do they work?

Who cares. VOUCHERS IN YOUR FACE!

Anyways, it ain't going to fly, Republicans will block it.

Mike said...

I know. I type like a special ed. student, not a teacher!

Mike said...

Garage, the Milwaukee Experiment exceeded the stated metrics so yes, vouchers "work" -- much much more so than the alternative, which is government mandated stupidity enforced by union hacks.

Alex said...

What are the odds that garage fuck-all supports unions!

Alex said...

Union hacks. Hackity hack hack hack. They are the SCUM of the earth. I loathe them and wish them all the worst!

mccullough said...

Do a lot of people with school age kids live in the Madison suburbs?

Methadras said...

The stranglehold that government has on education has to be broken along with the cabal of the teachers unions that go along with it.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Bad for fat, divorced, union worshipping idiots whose educational level topped out in high school.
2/21/13, 12:02 PM


And not six minutes later, he appears! Marvelous.




manboobs mahal said...
What's the success story of voucher schools in Wisconsin? Do they work?

Who cares. VOUCHERS IN YOUR FACE!

Anyways, it ain't going to fly, Republicans will block it.
2/21/13, 12:08 PM


Hey tubby, perhaps that indictment of Walker you have been predicting will materialize and put an end to any of his voucher plans.

David said...

Here in our backward fundamentalist Southern community, a new Roman Catholic high school is opening. The right wing Christian intolerant wacko snake charming other-hating parents are lining up to send their kids there.

Why? They have this idea that it's going to be better than the public schools.

This is without vouchers and by and large these people are not affluent.

Voting with feet.

Achilles said...

Voucher schools will outperform public in the way parents want.

Public schools will outperform vouchers schools in the way government wants.

This is a classic issue, and it is no surprise that leftists side with the government against the people as usual.

garage mahal said...

The right wing Christian intolerant wacko snake charming other-hating parents are lining up to send their kids there.

Wonderful. The snake handling parents can pay for it.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

It isn't public money. It's always just the parents' money

Not necessarily. The money comes from property taxes...not parents. If that were so, then those people who have children and who do NOT own property would be actually paying something.

The money comes from people and businesses that own property, whether they have children or NOT.

Freder Frederson said...

What are the values and skills that the public-school teachers represent? Anti-business, anti-profit-motive, government can run things best...

Aren't you a public school teacher?

Methadras said...

garage mahal said...

What's the success story of voucher schools in Wisconsin? Do they work?

Who cares. VOUCHERS IN YOUR FACE!

Anyways, it ain't going to fly, Republicans will block it.


Maybe when you are done with the union dick in your mouth, having vouchers stuffed up your ass will less unsightly.

Rusty said...

Choice is always a good thing. Let the market place determine which teachers are worthwhile and which ones are not worth employing.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The money comes from people and businesses that own property, whether they have children or NOT.

That being said. As a property owner without children I have no problems with the idea that some of my property taxes, bonds levied on my property, etc go towards education the next generations. It is crucial that we have an educated and informed population. One that has skills to be economically successful and can contribute to society.

UNFORTUNATELY....my money is being, wasted, squandered, stolen, used to support political agendas that I don't agree with. The children are NOT getting a good education in public schools. They are functionally illiterate ignoramuses who have been indoctrinated to be good little progtards.

If the students can take some of the money that I pay and use it to go to a good charter school or catholic school and get a decent education, I don't mind paying my taxes. The educational system that we have now....I resent being coerced and extorted to support such a colossal failure.

Freder Frederson said...

If that were so, then those people who have children and who do NOT own property would be actually paying something.

So you're saying that landlords don't factor property taxes into the price of the lease?

For a supposed financial adviser, you write some pretty stupid things.

RichardS said...

According to any internally consistent definition of religion, it is simply impossible to have non-religious schools that teach anything other than math and the hard sciences.

The Farmer said...

Hey, you want to push back against vouchers? Fair enough. Sooner or later the reality of the current state of Madison public schools is going to replace the myth. I'm sure the schools in Madison used to be great but they're not so impressive these days, if greatschools.org is to be believed. If you live in the area and you want your kids to go to good public schools, you move to a wealthy neighborhood, or out to Verona, Fitchburg, McFarland or Stoughton.

MadisonMan said...

If Charter Schools are taking Public Money, they should be educating children with needs outside the norm, if those children apply.

The Catholic School my kids would have gone to did nothing with kids that were outside the mold, you might call it. You colored inside the lines there, or you were figuratively berated. So, many of the Special needs kids left to the Public Schools. This keeps the cost low for the Catholic School, but increases it, proportionally, for Public Schools at the additional cost of average test scores.

And do Charter Schools work? That is the fundamentally not well-answered question. I'm sure there are Union-funded studies that show they do not. I'd rather see an actual study.

Perceived failures in Public Schools, or a wish to undermine (rightly!) Public Teacher Unions is no reason to throw away money into a Charter School. Sometimes I think politicians back Charter Schools so they can claim they are 'doing something' about Education.

LuAnn Zieman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JAL said...

Hey Surfed -- you should be able to pop your f key off with a paperclip, and depending on how your keyboard is made, clean out the spot (get rid of the old sticky coffe, dust bunny [apologies to DBQ], whetever is gumming it up.

Then pop the key back on.

Just a thought.

Comanche Voter said...

A lot of school's success or failure depends upon parental involvement. I live in a Los Angeles suburb. Our local K-12 schools have had an average enrollment ranging from as low as 19.000 students to as high as 32,000 during the 40 years I've lived here. The schools were quite successful on a district wide basis during the first part of those years; not so much these days. Where parental involvement remains high (as in the elementary school my now 40 year old daughters went to) the educational achievement remains high. Where parental involvement has slipped, so have the test scores in the public schools. We now have a much higher percentage of school age children enrolled in private schools of all stripes; and a significant number of parents have chosen to move to better, smaller, adjacent school districts.

Were my children of school age these days, they would not be in this district's public schools.

Something has to give; whether it's charter schools, voucher programs, or else just coninued parental flight from the district what can't go on won't go on.

Our current crop of public elementary schooll students is getting a piss poor education on average. [We've got some 22 elementary school campuses in the district.0

Unknown said...

----So, many of the Special needs kids left to the Public Schools. This keeps the cost low for the Catholic School, but increases it, proportionally, for Public Schools at the additional cost of average test scores.---

Yes but to be fair this also means that the 19 kids in the class of 20 who want to learn can focus on the teacher and the teacher can focus on them instead of the misbehaving or criminal kid. Sometimes we should look at quality and safety not cost.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

So you're saying that landlords don't factor property taxes into the price of the lease?

I guess you don't live in an area where there is rent control?

garage mahal said...

And do Charter Schools work?

No.

Mike said...

You don't have to be FOR vouchers or Catholic schools or even Charter Schools to admit: What we have no is failure. Doing nothing about the current state of public education is consigning our children to FAILURE.

Surfed said...

Asa teacher for 35 years I've come to the simple conclusion that some peole are born smart, some are born in the middle and some are born stupid. As a teacher I can educate a stupid person but, make no mistake, I can not alleviate their being stupid. They'll just be stupid with some variance of an education.

Amartel said...

"If you take public money, you should have to deal with public problems. You shouldn't be able to expelled/kick out students like in a private."

Bossy and blinkered. More proof that "Hope and Change" was words just words. HEY! What if one of these horrible entrepreneurs started a school just for kids with special education needs?

Sigivald said...

Does it bother you that taxpayer money will be spent for sectarian religious instruction?

No more than it bothers me that it's spent on sectarian Progressive education in the Public schools.

Which means, "yes, but at least this way you little shits aren't only rewarding and reinforcing your own kind."

...

Hmm, I'm a little bitter today.

But they deserve it.

It's exactly what they asked for when they made education a public mandate using other people's money, and now they can suck it up.

Sigivald said...

Renee said: If you take public money, you should have to deal with public problems. You shouldn't be able to expelled/kick out students like in a private.

Perhaps.

But perhaps it's so that one reason the schools do so poorly now is that nobody can get kicked out for anything short of attempted murder?

The desire for Universal High School Graduation is laudable.

But is it actually possible? (Without, that is, just devaluing the goal so much as to destroy it from the other direction.)

And if it's possible, is it possible at a price "the public" will be willing to pay?

The thing this phenomenon shows is that "the public" is getting bloody sick and tired of constantly paying more and more for public education, while getting either The Same, or Less And Less for their exaction.

AJ Lynch said...

Gov. Walker is trying to make Garbage's dim bulb head explode.

Truckee Man said...

The public schools are terrible. Even in the "good" ones the teachers are lazy and do not challenge the students. Since there are not private schools in our rural area we are going charter, independent study and classes at the JC. Desperate parents are driving their kids an hour to a catholic high school. Vouchers would fix this quick but we live in a dark blue state.

roesch/voltaire said...

"Choice is good" is a simplistic slogan designed to ignore reports from Stanford which found that the voucher system made little measurable difference in achievement, or for the failure of the for-profit K12 corporation in Tennessee. There are good and successful charter schools that should be modeled, but like Kipps, they are expensive, and hire only the best teachers at top salaries-- something few want to follow.

Freeman Hunt said...

When I went to school, there was something called alternative school for kids who got into trouble all the time. Did they get rid of that?

There also was, and I believe there still is, a special school devoted entirely to special needs kids.

Having places devoted to particular subsets of students seems like a much more efficient model than trying to cater to everyone at the same time in the same place.

AprilApple said...

Throw Walker out! How dare he go against the holy and precious Teacher's Union!

AprilApple said...

Walker for President.

Mike said...

Just apply Renee's stricture to universities and see how fast liberals jump through their asses to say public money should be unregulated to public higher education.

carrie said...

I think that the recent failure of the black charter school in Madison is enough reason to permit vouchers in Madison. Let the school board decide who wins on broader issues (union interests vs. interest of black children) and then still let the parents who lost on the issue pursue something that works for their child.

carrie said...

I think that the recent failure of the black charter school in Madison is enough reason to permit vouchers in Madison. Let the school board decide who wins on broader issues (union interests vs. interest of black children) and then still let the parents who lost on the issue pursue something that works for their child.

Mike said...

"Choice is good" is simple and unassailable. R-V describes a few failures. What about the 90% of Detroit primary grades that cannot read at grade level? Even choice AMONG public schools would empower parents to select a school that is better then the failing one closest by, but most teacher unions even fight that common sense choice.

Choice is ALWAYS good, unless you are a statist who wants to DICTATE to the masses instead of allow them freedom to choose.

garage mahal said...

Gov. Walker is trying to make Garbage's dim bulb head explode.

Republicans won't go along with Walker's voucher plan. Sorry.

But we are excited for the $2 per week tax cut headed our way. We just need to sell our power plants and dig up half of the state to get to that happy place. Forward!

Baron Zemo said...

Choice is only important for killing babies.

Not for educating them.

Marshal said...

Bryan C said...
That's a valid concern. The obvious answer is to let everyone keep their own money and pay for the schooling of their choice.


This might be the best solution, but it's never going to happen. It's enough to return the funds to the parent and let them spend it at the school of their preference.

Not establishing a state religion means not treating religious groups differently. There's no constitutional conflict allowing parents to spend vouchers at general education schools run by religious groups. We might not want to allow voucher use if the curricula consisted solely of religion since that could be deemed a different service. But even using them in solely religios schools would not violate the constitution as long as the rules restrict use to any particular religion.

Rusty said...

roesch/voltaire said...
"Choice is good" is a simplistic slogan designed to ignore reports from Stanford which found that the voucher system made little measurable difference in achievement, or for the failure of the for-profit K12 corporation in Tennessee. There are good and successful charter schools that should be modeled, but like Kipps, they are expensive, and hire only the best teachers at top salaries-- something few want to follow.

Well. Then. Let's not even try it anywhere else.
How come they quit providing it in DC when the kids were doing so well?
You personally might not like what choice offers, but consumers always benefit from having choices.

Rusty said...

What was the name of the private school in Milwaukee that the teachers union picketed? It was run by a minister, I think.
Anyway. The little kids acted more mature than the teachers union picketers.

Henry said...

roesch/voltaire inadvertently offers the justification for voucher and charter schools.

When they don't work, they can be closed.

When they do work, they can be modeled.

ricpic said...

"Choice is good" is a simplistic slogan...

Roeschi, the smug fellow traveler, knows better than the parents who lineup around the block to free their kids from public school wherever charter schools open.

roesch/voltaire said...

As someone who helped start an alternative high school, I am for developing schools that work, whether they be public or private, but I don't fall into the simplistic thinking of "choice is always good," because I know that it takes to make a good school. Kipps is an example, as are many public schools in the Chicago suburbs, and as I pointed out they hire the best, carefully evaluate their teachers and pay them at high levels--

RonF said...

"Obviously, the liberal viewpoint is that if there's a problem with the public schools, more money should be given to those public schools, not diverted into private schools."

They're not being diverted into private schools. They're being diverted to the parents. It's the parents of the children involved who decide where the money will go. Make the parents happy in public schools and no harm done. If you don't keep the parents happy, why should you get more money from them?

Freder Frederson said...


I guess you don't live in an area where there is rent control?

Actually I don't. And I bet you don't either.

Marshal said...

roesch/voltaire said...
"Choice is good" is a simplistic slogan designed to ignore reports from Stanford


It's revealing the autocrats accept promises of improvement over decades without result from their preferred policy, but other policies must be an immediate and undeniable success or else be labelled a failure.

The accountability mechanisms inherent in economic freedom that drive improvement work best over long periods of time. It's hardly surprising a few year study using components socialized in the same nonsense as our current system doesn't show immediate success. It would be nice if the leftists even recognized the disparate standards they apply to systems, but unicorns would be nice too.

Scott M said...

As someone who helped start an alternative high school, I am for developing schools that work, whether they be public or private, but I don't fall into the simplistic thinking of "choice is always good," because I know that it takes to make a good school.

Flip it around, then, and see how well a few adverse examples work.

"Coercion is always good" - Nope
"Coercion is never bad" - Nope
"Coercion is always bad" - Maybe
"Choice is always bad" - Nope
"Choice is never bad" - Same

A simplistic example, possibly, but of the available choices, why wouldn't you want to err on the greatest personal liberty?

Colonel Angus said...

A schools success is largely dependent upon the attention parents give to their child's education. You can send a kid to a top flight school and if he/she is a slacker and the parents don't care, the kid isn't going to amount to jack.

Vouchers just allow parents who do give a shit about their kids to send them to a school where other parents give a shit about their kids. The reason many inner city schools suck is because the kids largely don't give a shit, the parents don't give a shit and correspondingly, the teachers don't give a shit.

The obvious solution to this problem is to increase funding for these schools.

Henry said...

R-V wrote: I don't fall into the simplistic thinking of "choice is always good,"

Try substituting "freedom" for "choice" and your statement is equally true.

Freedom is a framework. What comes out of freedom is what can be evaluated. It could be better or it could be worse. But you can't evaluate the alternatives without first creating a framework where alternatives are possible.

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

I raised my sons in Qu├ębec, probably the most consistently liberal place in all North America. Even thirty years ago they had a full voucher program which included religious schools.

The vouchers go to the parents, not the schools. Where's the problem? The vouchers were for the full rate that it cost the government to "educate" a student in one of its schools. The private schools added on the difference, which I had to pay, but which came to only about C$800 per year for two kids in the [religious] school.

That Americans continue to have a problem with this merely demonstrates what closed-minded prissy idiots they are, primarily on the left not the right.

roesch/voltaire said...

Ah yes well pubic schools were founded to protect our freedoms by providing a solid education to create a knowledgable work force. Before you trash public education, please consider its history ( I admit, I teach at a land grand college, so I may be biased). Or maybe visit a public school with it many business classes, computer classes, engineering enterprise classes- newly added and you wouldn't the following B.S as Althouse has: What are the values and skills that the public-school teachers represent? Anti-business, anti-profit-motive, government can run things best..

EMD said...

Before you trash public education, please consider its history

I'm not trashing anything. I vote for the greatest amount of education mobility possible, public or private.

Rusty said...

. Kipps is an example, as are many public schools in the Chicago suburbs, and as I pointed out they hire the best, carefully evaluate their teachers and pay them at high levels--

So why can't there be vouchers for any kid to go there?
Why not let the consumers of education have a choice?
You say it's simplistic, but the current situation isn't getting the job done.

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

Colonel Angus said...

A schools success is largely dependent upon the attention parents give to their child's education. You can send a kid to a top flight school and if he/she is a slacker and the parents don't care, the kid isn't going to amount to jack.

Vouchers just allow parents who do give a shit about their kids to send them to a school where other parents give a shit about their kids. The reason many inner city schools suck is because the kids largely don't give a shit, the parents don't give a shit and correspondingly, the teachers don't give a shit.


Ah . . . no.
A schools success is largely dependent on the IQs of its students. Good teachers, attitudes and surroundings are secondary.

If you have trouble getting your mind around that, try a sports analogy. No one has any trouble intuiting that a schools sports success is largely dependent on the sports ability of its students, which is then augmented by coaches and programs.

You mistake is the common one of "everyone can learn because everyone has a good enough IQ". Not true, and it varies by Race. Want to see really good grades, go find a predominately Asian school. But don't expect much from their basketball team.

EMD said...

A schools success is largely dependent on the IQs of its students. Good teachers, attitudes and surroundings are secondary.


In all of our fury to find blame for poor-performing students, we rarely appropriate blame for the students themselves.

So there, I blame the students. The shitty ones who have no desire to learn and seek to cause trouble and damage the learning experience for others.

Rusty said...


A simplistic example, possibly, but of the available choices, why wouldn't you want to err on the greatest personal liberty?

Because it could cost them their phony bologna jobs?
Just a wild guess on my part.

Rusty said...

SomeoneHasToSayIt said.

Yes but that doesn't mean that we should just give up on the rest of them.
At least vouchers put the schools on notice. Education money in the hands of the education consumers.

Marshal said...

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...
A schools success is largely dependent on the IQs of its students.


A school's success is determined by how close its students come to their ability. Enrolling a group of smart and motivated kids without behavioral problems is not success.

Want to see really good grades, go find a predominately Asian school.

Note your switch to "good grades" instead of good schools. Conscious or unconscious?

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

Oh, I FULLY support vouchers!

Separating the high achievers from the low achievers is as important in schools as in sports.

There should be specialty schools for all types of students, no one-size-fits-all.

The goal is to get the best out of a student that can be gotten, given the starting materials.

The 'achievement gap' can be no more lessened than can be the height gap between tall people and short people. But you can still bring out the best vertical leap possible, given the starting material potential.

Colonel Angus said...

Before you trash public education, please consider its history

We do. That's why public education is trashed because it certainly isn't living up to his past.

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

Note your switch to "good grades" instead of good schools. Conscious or unconscious?

Conscious. Smart kids will "out", despite poorer conditions. Of course smart kids + good conditions are the very optimum.

Conversely, not-so-smart kids are absolutely destroyed in bad conditions, and need the very best to just have a fighting chance.

Colonel Angus said...

Ah . . . no. A schools success is largely dependent on the IQs of its students. Good teachers, attitudes and surroundings are secondary.

Nonsense. Most children have sufficent capacity to learn. Evidently you don't spend much time around kids but most would rather watch tv, play sports or video games than study. That's where the swift parental kick comes into place.

Asian kids do indeed do well, largely as a result of their culture and, yes, patents who reinforce that culture.

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

Colonel Angus, your views are widely held, but just plain wrong.

And they thus create bad public policy when they are the foundation for it.

There is nothing more dangerous that an unquestioned, but false, premiss.
other-wise logical conclusions from a false premiss are deadly.

Why do YOU suppose the achievement gap has proven un-shrinkable???

BUt, your view certainly has the 'benefit' of making you think yourself a 'better person', for holding it - free to call others dispensers 'nonsense'.

I have science on my side though, so that's enough for me.

Sam L. said...

Madison! The Horror...the horror...

Sam L. said...

The Profit Motive! The Horror...the horror...

Ramone said...

It amazes me the wealth of ignorant comments made about public education. I am an administrator at a technical college. My wife is a kindergarten teacher at one of the loathed public schools and has been for several years. My college has an 86% job placement in the graduate's field of choice. That is low compared with my program area which is IT. in IT our placement rate is nearly 100%. Yet, we suffered a 30% cut to our state funding at Walker's hands. Hmmmm, now how is there any tie whatsoever to performance?? My wife's school, although rated very high for a low income area, will be closing next year due to lack of funding. She will be out of a job. Voucher schools are nothing more than a thinly veiled facade that solves no problem at all. If you take a professional athlete, prevent them from eating proper nutrition, deprive them of physical activity, then put them out on the playing field, guess what happens? They will fall far short of expectations. Our technical college and our local four year university are highly accredited and always have been yet funding was slashed to our school. Walker is a veritable baboon with a 2.3 GPA before dropping out of school yet he gets to decide the fate of our state's education? That makes zero sense to any rational person anywhere.

Ramone said...

On second thought, I am giving baboons a very poor assessment by comparing them with Walker. They are both more intelligent and more compassionate.

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

And with that last ungracious comment, you gave all of us a good reason to ignore your post.

Revenant said...

Yet, we suffered a 30% cut to our state funding at Walker's hands.

Walker probably forgot that the primary purpose of public education is to employ educators.

whoresoftheinternet said...

Awww, there goes easy annie A again, 1984-ing history to suit her purpose.

Don't ever criticize black dysnfunction! Do not point out factual differences that make black people seem inferior!

Tell is all, abortion-lover: what part of the black ghetto do you live in, that you feel so over-protective of the species?

The truth is what the left makes it!

Seig Heil, Mein Obama!

Synova said...

"Walker probably forgot that the primary purpose of public education is to employ educators."

*heh*

Synova said...

"Want to see really good grades, go find a predominately Asian school. But don't expect much from their basketball team."

Asian students are sometimes shorter, true, but are they smarter? They work harder. There are more "Tiger Moms" and more pressure to conform and perform rather than "find yourself." The more acculturated to American norms the children of immigrants become the more their performance falls.

Sure, IQ matters, but work habits matter more. Far more. And schools could teach work habits but rote work has been demonized for decades now. Now it's all wonder and discovery instead of developing discipline. Smart kids don't work up to their ability and the dumb kids who would benefit most from just learning to *do* the work even if they don't understand it completely are in a position where they don't learn the concept and don't learn to apply themselves, follow through, or work hard knowing that they will be successful if they put in the elbow grease.

They've screwed up Math so much trying to teach mathematical thinking that boys who used to be able to do *well* in Math but be in special ed for language, end up in special ed for Math, too.

Synova said...

If all it takes to unreligify money was to undertake a shell game where it passes through other hands so that Catholic institutions can be forced to fund contraception (for contraceptive purposes) and abortion (for contraceptive purposes) the complaint that voucher money shouldn't go to religious schools has not even a whiff of legitimacy.

The money goes to the parents. Thus it has be unreligified. The school can simply say that any portion of the education provided in any class that is remotely likely to have god-cooties is entirely free, it's just the rest that is being paid for.

Far more simple unreligification process than the moronic notion that if someone else touches Georgetown University's money it's no longer Georgetown paying to kill babies or pay for sin and vice.

Phil 3:14 said...

All Medicaid and Medicare enrollees should only be allowed to go to public hospitals.

All food stamp recipients should only be allowed to shop at government-run grocers.

All FHA loan recipients should only be allowed to live in government housing.


etc etc etc

linsee said...

The group Education Consumers has state-by-state charts of reading proficiency vs. poverty (as percent of free/reduced lunch). Even within a narrow range of poverty rates, there is very significant variation in proficiency scores. Wisconsin is here:

http://www.education-consumers.org/state/WI.htm

linsee said...

The group Education Consumers has state-by-state charts of reading proficiency vs. poverty (as percent of free/reduced lunch). Even within a narrow range of poverty rates, there is very significant variation in proficiency scores. Wisconsin is here:

http://www.education-consumers.org/state/WI.htm

Paul Zrimsek said...

thinly veiled facade

This person might be involved in some way in teaching your kids English.

Michael McNeil said...

The desire for Universal High School Graduation is laudable. But is it actually possible?

While we're pondering that, meanwhile in many companies these days it's getting so “It Takes a B.A. to Find a Job as a File Clerk.”

Calypso Facto said...

Yet, we suffered a 30% cut to our state funding at Walker's hands.

And a concurrent cut to expenses that actually left most districts at a fiscal advantage, but, shhhhhh, "Walker's a baboon!" and all that makes for a much more convincing argument.

thinly veiled facade

This person might be involved in some way in teaching your kids English.


This one too: "I teach at a land grand college"