January 15, 2013

Crazy NRA approach to school violence...

... is supported by 55% of Americans.

By "crazy," I mean that the elite media went all out to portray the suggestion as insane:
Here's the NYT editorial, which is entitled "The N.R.A. Crawls From Its Hidey Hole."
[W]e were stunned by Mr. LaPierre’s mendacious, delusional, almost deranged rant.

Mr. LaPierre looked wild-eyed at times....

We cannot imagine trying to turn the principals and teachers who care for our children every day into an armed mob....
I wonder what the support for LaPierre's proposal would be if he'd been given a respectful hearing in the press?

123 comments:

Mogget said...

"I wonder what the support for LaPierre's proposal would be if he'd been given a respectful hearing in the press?"

I doubt we'll ever find out. Respect is a one-way street for progs.

Seeing Red said...

Why is the NYT against human rights?

AllenS said...

Never happen.

kcom said...

And I wonder how many miles a fish could do in a day if it could ride a bicycle.

AprilApple said...

America doesn't have an honest, curious press. Instead we have weak-minded agenda pushers and party-hugging hacks.

The "nightly news" isn't news, it's pop-culture pabulum with dribbles of soft-propaganda.

Jay said...

Yes, it is so "crazy" that Sheriff's and police chiefs are training teachers to handle firearms in Colorado, Utah, Ohio, Tennessee, and PA.

Also, school districts in PA, New Jersey, and Tennessee have already announced they will have armed guards in schools.

So of course liberals are laughing.

They're stupid.

Seeing Red said...

Did anyone read the story off of Drudge about the carjacking? It was earliers this week.

The victim doesn't believe in, darn it, the link is gone, violence or guns, I couldn't remember. 2 good samaratins with guns stopped it.

The victim's comment struck me - that he couldn't protect himself.

No, sir, you chose not to protect yourself. Others stepped in to protect your choice.

Seeing Red said...

Off of Drudge:


Biden: W.H. eying 19 executive actions on guns


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/biden-guns-executive-actions-86187.html#ixzz2I3Tko4I9


They don't have to obey the law, or The Constitution, see the budget, so why do I?

Jay said...

We cannot imagine trying to turn the principals and teachers who care for our children every day into an armed mob

Of course nobody, anywhere at all, called for teachers to be an "armed mob"

Hey, since liberals are like so super-duper smart, why are they always arguing against straw men?

kcom said...

Having not listened to Mr. LaPierre's "rant" I could be wrong, but my guess is that he didn't come anywhere close to advocating the creation of an "armed mob."

1. a disorderly or riotous crowd of people.

2. a crowd bent on or engaged in lawless violence.

In fact, I'm sure he was advocating exactly the opposite. You've got to love the intellectual honesty of the New York Times. If you can't represent your opponents' views honestly and argue against those with clarity, then you've already lost the debate.

Shouting Thomas said...

I think you have to read Sailer to understand the racial dynamic of the coastal elites versus flyover country.

It's whites versus whites in a status war.

Boiled down, here's the thesis.

Coastal whites are afraid of urban minorities and want them disarmed, but they can't say this for the obvious reasons.

So, their bitch against guns is diverted into a rant against the crazy rednecks in flyover country who obviously want to go on a murderous rampage against minorities and gays.

RonF said...

Yeah, it's a crazy idea to put armed guards in schools. That's why the President of the United States and a whole bunch of politicians send their kids to a school with ... armed guards. Eleven of them, hired by the school, not counting the Secret Service. The day those guards go away I'll listen to the people telling me that putting armed guards in schools is a crazy idea.

Jay said...

More craziness!!!!!!

A growing number of states are aiming to keep Uncle Sam's hands off their weapons if Congress decides to stiffen gun-control laws in response to last month's deadly shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.

Eight states — Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Montana, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah and Wyoming — have adopted laws in recent years that would exempt guns made in the state from federal regulation as long as they remain in the state, according to Jon Griffin of the National Conference of State Legislatures.

Twenty-one other states have introduced similar legislation, said Gary Marbut, president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association. Marbut was the force behind the Montana Firearms Freedom Act of 2009, upon which many other states have patterned their bills. Implementation of Montana's and other laws are on hold pending a 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals decision, Marbut and his attorney, Quentin Rhoades said.

BarrySanders20 said...

Big difference between arming teachers and having armed guards in schools. The first is not workable (Sister Janet is not gopingto pack heat) and the second could be sensible.

TMink said...

Armed mob? The teachers at my kids schools are decent human beings, the furthest thing from a mob. But then I live in a red state.

Trey

pduggie said...

I don't think you need armed guards in all schools. It will cost to much and only covers corner cases.

What makes sense, is a "for emergency use only" gun of some kind, under glass, that will trigger alarms if opened up. Keep it in the principals office or some other safe place. It's "emergency equipment".

And it means next time there is a crazy on the loose, there is something to equalize the situation.

This is a great compromise!

traditionalguy said...

I heard a commentator referring to LaPierre as that Frenchman. Talk about a snit in the new Federal Aristocracy.

Guns are the ultimate symbol of self governing free men and are driving our new Aristocracy in Press and Politics insanely jealous just because a semi-automatic rifle (basically all rifles since Winchester lever actions) look like an illegal assault Rifle.

The Aristocracy DEMANDS dress codes and demands the bearing of arms by commoners be criminalized...today.

David said...

The question was whether there should be a law requiring armed guards. That phrasing was probably designed to get a low favorable response. Surprise!

Hagar said...

They jumped without first looking to see if there was water in the pool.

As has now been pointed out, about a third of our nation's schools already has armed police officers in them, and more are joining that movement on their own after Sandy Hook.

That said, I am not that enthused about officially arming teachers in order to defend against an occurence that is a lot less likely to happen than that their school will be hit by lightning.

However, the more teachers - and everyone else for that matter - that learns which end of a gun is the dangerous one and some basic gun etiquette, the better.

Robert Cook said...

That 55% of the American public support a crazy or stupid idea is hardly unprecedented...or surprising.

Moose said...

Since when did the press do anything "respectful"? They're job is to sell the story - no matter what the context or agenda.

Jay said...

Robert Cook said...
That 55% of the American public support a crazy or stupid idea is hardly unprecedented.


33% of America's schools already have armed guards.

Idiot.

Mogget said...

"That 55% of the American public support a crazy or stupid idea is hardly unprecedented...or surprising"

Oh, I think 55% is kinda high. But clearly, we do have precedent for 50.9% supporting crazy stupid ideas.

Marshal said...

Seeing Red said...
Off of Drudge:
Biden: W.H. eying 19 executive actions on guns


Interesting the article doesn't list the actions being considered.

asdg123 said...

Seeing Red,

Was this the story you were referring to?

http://www.kvue.com/news/Houston-robbery-victim-wants-to-thank-Good-Samaritans-who-came-to-his-rescue--186634461.html

Marshal said...

Jay said...
Robert Cook said...
That 55% of the American public support a crazy or stupid idea is hardly unprecedented.

33% of America's schools already have armed guards.


He's using the leftist definition of "crazy or stupid", which is "anything I'm against".

Patrick said...

We cannot imagine trying to turn the principals and teachers who care for our children every day into an armed mob.

That's the thing, isn't it? The NYT cannot imagine a group of people that have guns that is not a mob. Probably reveals more than they intended.

SJ said...

turn teachers into an armed mob...

It appears that guns automatically turn those carrying them into a armed mobs.

Or something.

(Unless, of course, the person carrying is a licensed agent of the government.)

This thought process attributes some sort of magical powers to guns. Almost as if they are something over which the user has no control.

Which side is the reality-based community?

Jay said...

He's using the leftist definition of "crazy or stupid", which is "anything I'm against".

Yes, kind of like an "assault weapon" being any gun a liberal doesn't like.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I wonder what the support for LaPierre's proposal would be if he'd been given a respectful hearing in the press?

I wonder how much more support he could have gotten if he had thought to use a high-capacity magazine as a visual aid while on Meet the Press.

Oh wait, that would have been illegal. And since he was opposing gun control, it would have been illegal-illegal.

Patrick said...

Because those school "gun free zones" have worked so well, there is a petition oon the White House website to eliminate the armed protection for government officials, and just create "gun free zones" around the officials.

I'm sure there are lots of those who favor keeping school children as sitting ducks who see how well this will work.

Jay said...

it would have been illegal-illegal.

Heh

machine said...

...because having armed guards present prevented Columbine and VA Tech...oh wait...

never mind ...

Patrick said...

That 55% of the American public support a crazy or stupid idea is hardly unprecedented...or surprising.

I'd agree that majority support for an idea doesn't remove that idea from the realm of craziness, but I wonder if you could explain the implicit assertion that having armed protection for school children is "crazy."

ricpic said...

We were this, we were that...

Who is "we," kimosabe?

SGT Ted said...

Lefists really lose their shit when guns in the hands of ordinary people are involved. It's a challenge and affront to their assumptions of authority, power and societal class privilege.

It is a reflexive anti-Americanism inculcated by a propaganda effort to always show guns in a bad light, which is why self defense stories are always ignored by the National propaganda arms of the Democrat Party and mass shootings are milked for every tear and bloodstain to create a fear of firearms and the people that advocate for a Constitutional Right.

Division and Fear is the how the Democrats govern. Notice how Obamas last presser was void of any plans or ideas, except to paint the GOP as The Enemy of the Good people. The press went right along with repeating it without critique, merely being stenographers for the fascist Obama regime.

We have an administration actively attacking the Constitutional Rights of the people. OF course neo-Communists like Cook are completely OK with that. He would prefer a European Authoritarian style government. I recomend he go there and leave the rest of us alone.

Big Mike said...

The basic facts are these:

(1) The nearest police substation was only 2.3 miles away from Sandy Hook.

(2) They received a call that shots were fired in an elementary school

(3) According to the NYT's published timeline, it took 20 minutes before the first police entered the school.

How does one stop an armed psychopath? Begging and pleading for your life doesn't seem to work. Having a gun of your own does. But this is an area where the gun control addicts are playing fast and loose with statistics by defining "mass shootings" as those where four or more individuals were shot. In documented cases where people got their own guns to confront the shooter, the number of victims hardly ever got up to four. What surprised me is that in many cases the shooter surrendered or shot himself without the person confronting him having to actually shoot their weapon.

Marshal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brew Master said...

I wonder what the support for LaPierre's proposal would be if he'd been given a respectful hearing in the press?

This statement could not have been made seriously. It posits a hypothetical that hasn't existed in this country for nearly my entire lifetime. (I was born during Nixon)

I cannot recall the last time that the press was respectful towards gun rights advocates, much less Republicans. When was the last time the press gave them the benefit of the doubt?

Compare/contrast Valerie Plame with Fast and Furious.

People on the right like to warn against Cloward/Piven, but it has already succeeded brilliantly. The public schools are under the control of leftists, as is the vast majority of media, whether that be news reporting, or music, movies, literature.....

We are down to arguing over deck chairs, and where they should go.

Marshal said...

machine said...
...because having armed guards present prevented Columbine and VA Tech...oh wait...

never mind ...


I see the left is reduced to claiming solutions not 100% effective should be discarded out of hand. Yesterday Biden claimed the standard is "saving one life" or anything >0%. So they have the range covered.

Tomorrow the standard will be...whatever the left needs it to be for the argument of the moment to make sense. Just like every other day.

SGT Ted said...

The the Community Based Reality, where if you close your eyes and wish to Tinkerbell REALLY REALLY hard, a clearly written right of the People, that is, individual citizens, to keep and bear arms for self defense, upheld by the USSC in Heller, can be be made to vanish.

Congress needs to impeach Obama if he goes ahead with his illegal Executive orders designed to subvert a Constitutional right that he has no authorrity to alter.

Jay said...

machine said...
...because having armed guards present prevented Columbine and VA Tech...oh wait...


Virginia Tech is not a school being talked about in this context.

Would you like me to list 4 examples, which would be double the amount you offered, of armed school officials stopping school shootings?

Idiot.

AprilApple said...

So a teacher with a C&C permit is an "armed mob"?
Got it. Thanks for the conversation, leftists.

Robert Cook - Don't you think it would be a great idea to hang signs at the entrances of all Public schools that
showcase images of Hollywood celebrities like Julianne Moore and/or Will Farrell advertising the following message: "Enough! We are a gun free zone. Please don't hurt us. *Hollywood hearts you*."

AprilApple said...

Virginia Tech was a "gun free zone". Odd that these crazed killers keep targeting "gun free zones"?

jr565 said...

You'd think the media would know this fact since it was REPORTED IN THE MEDIA. But, almost a third of the states already allow guns in school:
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/14/16468754-guns-already-allowed-in-schools-with-little-restriction-in-many-states?lite

So then who is the ignoramus again, NYT?
I bet NBC or MSNBC would argue the same position that the Times did (that LaPierre wanted guns in schools) despite the fact thatt they themselves reported this inconvenient fact.
Which means, either they don't read their own information. Or think that their ideology trumps the very truth that they are atually reporting on, and that the eeryday reader/viewer will somohow not notice.

SGT Ted said...

Remember when the militia shot a bunch of British soldiers sent to sieze the arms and powder of the citizens?



Marshal said...

Brew Master said...

I cannot recall the last time that the press was respectful towards gun rights advocates, much less Republicans. When was the last time the press gave them the benefit of the doubt?


As mush as I'd like to say media bias makes the left lose elections because they cannot understand the world around them I don't really believe that. It's true they don't understand, but there's zero evidence that lack hurts them electorally. The left simply controls too much of public life and there are too many low information voters.

The exception is gun rights. So while it is true gun rights are not treated fairly in the current environment I think this a good thing. It does more to expose bias and hidden agendas than any other topic. Of course an important element of the current environment is that gun rights advocates maintain sufficient political power to fight off leftist attacks, which they will in this case also.

Robert Cook said...

"I'd agree that majority support for an idea doesn't remove that idea from the realm of craziness, but I wonder if you could explain the implicit assertion that having armed protection for school children is 'crazy.'"

My remark was more general; while I think that turning our schools into armed camps is not a good idea, and probably cannot guarantee the safety of the children even while habituating them to the idea of living in permanent lockdown, I can understand why others would argue for it and think it a good idea.

I was refuting the implied notion that it is condescending and wrong to consider something supported by 55% of the American public as "crazy." After all, look at how many Americans reject the idea of evolution as the agent of the development of life on this planet.

jr565 said...

"Virginia Tech is not a school being talked about in this context."


Virginia Tech also goes against the narrative because the shooter used pistols and not an assault rifle.
So,if you go back to Ben Shapiro's discussion with Piers Morgan where Ben asked why Morgan wasn't advocating for the banning of pistols, here too is an inconvenient narrative for the assault gun banners.
Would Piers Morgan or would Obama, when faced with that shooting still call for an assault weapons ban? Or a ban on an AR 15?

Marshal said...

I see the left is reduced to claiming solutions not 100% effective should be discarded out of hand. Yesterday Biden claimed the standard is "saving one life" or anything >0%. So they have the range covered.

To put it another way note the difference in standards required to justify implementing policy:

Democrats: >0%
Republicans: = 100%

Stark, but only surprising to people not paying attention.

bpm4532 said...

It would require more people to listen and think about the words, not just react in Pavlovian fashion.

SGT Ted said...

Cook does have a point. Obama got elected despite being full of shit and lying that he was going to uphold the COnstitution once he secured office.

He'll tell another lie about upholding and defending the Constitution on Inauguration Day too and no one will call him out on it.

Robert Cook said...

"Cook does have a point. Obama got elected despite being full of shit and lying that he was going to uphold the COnstitution once he secured office."

Another good example.

Of course, this was a case where Americans had no good choice in the election, and so simply acquiesced to voting again for the evil they knew.

However, that Obama's supporters cannot see him as the fraud he is, after 4 years, is a good example of willful ignorance.

Seeing Red said...

If a school has 1 gun or 1 armed officer, it's now an "armed camp?"

Hagar said...

I think it should be noted that it is the left that has brought armed police into the schools that already have them.
And they are there not to protect against "mass shootings," but to arrest and handcuff students who bring dangerous weapons, such as nail clippers, onto the school grounds, young female drug dealers sharing their Midol, etc.
All those things that the teachers of past years were expected to take care of in their daily routines without raising a stir, but they no longer dare touch for fear of being hit with a civil rights suit for damages by the entitled parents of the little darlings.

I Callahan said...

If a school has 1 gun or 1 armed officer, it's now an "armed camp?"

Yeah, I saw that too.

Many schools ALREADY had armed guards before this last event. Were they armed camps too?

Robert Cook said...

"Many schools ALREADY had armed guards before this last event. Were they armed camps too?"

I can't speak to the circumstances of every school at present, but certainly, in reading about conditions at some NYC public schools, they sound like armed camps to me, with the students as inmates.

Moreover, if the idea is to guard the schools against (those rare occurrences of) mass shootings at school, one armed guard will not suffice. So, obviously, once the "one armed guard" is put in place, they will be followed by metal detectors, and increasing implementation of greater and greater security measures until the campuses will be under armed lockdown. After all, in a country that no longer makes anything, policing services and prisons are a growth industry.

Look at what we've done to our airports...all travelers are treated as suspected terrorists. The next obvious step is to make our schools, and, in time, all public spaces, similarly oppressive and bristling with militarized security forces.

Patrick said...

while I think that turning our schools into armed camps is not a good idea, and probably cannot guarantee the safety of the children

Of course nothing "guarantees the safety of the children," and no one seriously claims that allowing teachers to carry weapons will do so. Nor is anyone proposing turning schools into "armed camps."

Marshal said...

Robert Cook said...
However, that Obama's supporters cannot see him as the fraud he is, after 4 years, is a good example of willful ignorance.


Believing another Smoot Hawley act is the path to US economic prosperity is another good example.

edutcher said...

Most people live in the real world and understand the cavalry may well not get there in time.

So, they're willing to compromise.

The stupids believe what they're told.

Shouting Thomas said...

I think you have to read Sailer to understand the racial dynamic of the coastal elites versus flyover country.

It's whites versus whites in a status war.

Boiled down, here's the thesis.

Coastal whites are afraid of urban minorities and want them disarmed, but they can't say this for the obvious reasons.


No, they're actually dumb enough to trust government, but they also send their kids to schools where you need a blood test to get past the gate.

Jay said...

That 55% of the American public support a crazy or stupid idea is hardly unprecedented.

33% of America's schools already have armed guards.


5 will get you 10 many of those schools have guards to protect the teachers and other students from the hoodla on the inside.

roesch/voltaire said...

The NRA does not need a "respectful hearing in the press" as they know where the real power lies and have been paying off the pols with gun money for years. It seems to me the right can not make up its mind about teachers; first they want to destroy the teachers' union and end public education, and now they want to arm them to a person-- crazy view in my opinion.

Robert Cook said...

"Nor is anyone proposing turning schools into 'armed camps.'"

And yet, that will be the inevitable result of assigning weapons to school staff or in hiring professional armed security services to patrol the schools.

Patrick said...

And yet, that will be the inevitable result of assigning weapons to school staff or in hiring professional armed security services to patrol the schools.

No, it's not inevitable. It is quite easy to consider many ways of allowing teachers/staff to carry without turning schools into armed camps.

Of course I will also admit that it is also easy to think of ways the government can fuck it up, like it does pretty much everything, so it does give me pause.

Hagar said...

This is getting bad.

It is already the second or third time I find myself agreeing with Robert Cook!

TMink said...

I appreciate that you did not refer to the elite media as the press as that would be bloggin malpractice!

I would suggest to you that an even more descriptive phrase would be our "effete media."

Trey

EDH said...

Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!

I was thinking "Sure you do..." buttons for Obama's second inauguration, in reference to his oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States".

Michael said...

I note an armed guard at the entrance to my bank. Very effective, I think, to keep people from getting the idea they can stick people up leaving the bank with cash. Or even robbing the bank itself.
Children not so important to protect as money?

This is not hard.

Michael said...

RV. There is no hypocricy or inconsistency in wanting our children protedted by the people whose care they are in and wanting those people to be competent teachers who can be fired for incompetence. It is not a complicated idea at all.

cubanbob said...

The gun self defense and armed security issues should be seen in context of The Joe Biden Principal and those who should be excluded. If Crazy Stupid Joe deserves to have armed security detail to guard his life who in this country isn't worth guarding?

Rob Crawford said...

Roach/Volaire:

The NRA does not need a "respectful hearing in the press" as they know where the real power lies and have been paying off the pols with gun money for years.

Gun money? Do you know where the NRA gets its funds?

From ordinary people who pay to have an organized voice protecting their rights. The NRA is a CIVIL RIGHTS ORGANIZATION, and one that is much more principled than, say, the ACLU.

ken in sc said...

NPR, on Morning Edition today repeated the debunked story that 85% of the guns used by Mexican drug gangs were bought in the US and smuggled across the border. AFAIK, NPR has never reported the details of Fast and Furious or the fact that most guns used by the Mexican drug gangs come from the Mexican military.

edutcher said...

Rob, if the NRA gets gun money, then NARAL and Planned Parenthood get blood money.

onefreeman said...

roesch/voltaire said...

" ... it seems to me the right can not make up its mind about teachers; first they want to destroy the teachers' union and end public education, and now they want to arm them to a person-- crazy view in my opinion."

This is the opinion of either a first grade intellect or, simply, a liar. Show one example of any marginally credible voice on the right calling for the ending of public education. Demanding accountability for the use of public funds is not destruction. The right is not against teachers. It is against a system that does not hold teachers accountable. Your pathetic false choice is worthy of your likely hero, the mendacious president.

Mick Havoc said...

Schools already have fire drills and fire extinguishers.
There are AED machines in most schools.
I believe you could have a pump shotgun and a ballistic vest secured out of sight somewhere, with someone like the assistant principal, the phy-ed teachers or the school engineer trained to use it.
Teachers could be trained during in-service to lock the kids in classrooms with re-inforced doors.
I don't think these modest measures would turn schools into Waupun.
On second thought, forget the engineer. You can never find them.

Mick Havoc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
prairie wind said...

After all, in a country that no longer makes anything, policing services and prisons are a growth industry.

Yes. Exactly.

The trick to true security is taking responsibility for one's own, not hiring it out. When no one knows who is carrying, we are all safer. Simply take the "no guns allowed" sign off the door.

The idea of armed guards in schools is ridiculous...another expense to shove down taxpayer throats. Already, many schools have cops in the schools--as someone else noted, to protect students and teachers from the hoodlums enrolled in the school--and the main result has been more students being arrested. When there is a cop at school, the school tends to run to him/her for help instead of using common sense and solving things without police.

Michael McNeil said...

I wonder how many miles a fish could do in a day if it could ride a bicycle.

We are fish — sarcopterygian (lobe-finned) fish. The large bulk of extant fish species these days in the sea are ray-finned fish (or actinopterygians) — sarcopterygians used to be far more prevalent there (there are a few groups left today in the sea, e.g. lungfish and coelacanths) — but around 400 million years ago (some) sarcopterygian fish invented the basic body plan still in use today by all us “tetrapods” (four-legged animals that later invaded the land): jawed head set atop a segmented backbone, with four limbs (jointed as ours are) hanging off that, together with five fingers/toes at the end of each.

Thus, we are fish, and fish can (and do) ride bicycles — while some (even female ones) need bicycles — which puts that feminist cliche about “women needing men” in a whole different light, I think!

Ross MacLochness said...

"I wonder what the support for LaPierre's proposal would be if he'd been given a respectful hearing in the press?"

Probably next to nil. I'm guessing that a substantial portion of that 55 percent support the NRA position precisely because the press hates it.

Revenant said...

Putting armed guards in all schools is a dumb idea not because it will turn the schools into "armed camps" -- one gun on a campus of a thousand people is not an "armed camp" -- but because the vast majority of schools are under no appreciable threat from violence. It is not worth spending forty grand a year on a full-time guard to prevent a one in a million crime from occurring.

That being said, "gun-free schools" are an even dumber idea, as they disarm only the law-abiding.

Paul said...

"respectful hearing in the press?"

Ann you are joshing, right?

The press is now owned by hard core 'progressives'. They have the bucks and tell the editors and journalist what to do and say.

Even Al Jazeera now owns a TV station here thanks to master progressive Al Gore.

Brennan said...

It is not worth spending forty grand a year on a full-time guard to prevent a one in a million crime from occurring.Heh. 40K cost would be slave wages in a public school. Try 120K(wages, benefits, pension) to start.

Andy Freeman said...

> Big difference between arming teachers and having armed guards in schools. The first is not workable (Sister Janet is not gopingto pack heat)

Not all teachers are nuns.

Israeli teachers carry and teach as well. If American teachers aren't up to doing both, let's get some Israeli teachers.

When I went to school, there were guns in the parking lot, in the cars of students and teachers who had gone hunting that morning.

Sam L. said...

Or if he'd mentioned, very dramatically, that former President Clinton had recommended this.

Andy Freeman said...

Yes, there was an armed guard at Columbine.

That guard saved lives by forcing Harris to play defense and and disrupting their plan to set off the bombs that they'd brought.

There are kids alive today because that guard was there. It's unclear why that's a bad thing.

Moneyrunner said...

Shouting Thomas comment on the motivation of urban Liberals using more gun controls as a way of disarming urban blacks without wishing to appear racist is something that could be a fruitful subject of a academic study. I’m sure that the professors at Northwestern in Evanston are aware that the violence in Chicago’s inner city may not be contained and I believe Northwestern is a gun free zone. Of course if asked directly they would deny that they were afraid of the inner city youth turning Chicago into a shooting gallery, and they may even convince themselves of it.

The other argument being advanced is that having armed people around turns the place they live and work into an “armed camp.” That would make many of our streets an armed camp. Of course the same silly argument was made that “shall issue” laws would turn the country into the Wild West (which by the way was fairly peaceful despite the prevalence of weapons). It did not happen, but that’s no reason not to raise that worn-out straw man again. It’s effective with people who are afraid of guns, knives and running with scissors. The kind of helicopter parents who tell little Johnny that he can’t have a BB gun cause he’ll shoot his eye out.

Probably the only people who don’t care what the Federales are doing about guns are the criminals and gang bangers. Strangely enough, they don’t bother to apply for a concealed weapons license; don’t go through the background checks at the gun store. Isn’t it a puzzlement?

Moneyrunner said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darrell said...

Remember growing up in the 1950s and 1960s when armed off-duty cops hung around your high school every day? I do. I lived in Chicago and still do. I assumed then and still do now that they must have gotten paid for the time they were there. We never considered it an "armed camp." But then again, we weren't drama queens looking to disarm law-abiding citizens to facilitate the Leftist takeover.

Michael Haz said...

Every child deserves the same level of security as the children who attend Sidwell Friends school.

Big Mike said...

Moreover, if the idea is to guard the schools against (those rare occurrences of) mass shootings at school, one armed guard will not suffice.

@Cookie, why on earth would you believe that? One of the most startling findings has been the ability of a single armed person stopping a shooter without having to fire his or her own gun.

Big Mike said...

@Michael Haz, you know Sidwell Friends was founded by Quakers. You'd think they would have eschewed armed guards.

Alex said...

How do you vet these security guards? If you start mass hiring of security guards for schools that will invite every whacko who wants to shoot up a school.

Cedarford said...

Marshal said...
Robert Cook said.

Believing another Smoot Hawley act is the path to US economic prosperity is another good example.

Well, nothing like the results of the last 12 years on Free Trade for Freedom Lovers! and tax cuts for the Hero Job Creators! to show what a pile of crap that part of Reaganomics dogma was in its second act under Dubya and Obama.

What happened in the 1980s and 90s were productivity gains the US saw and did first.
Reagan and many conservatives (who were not in the rich elites actually benefiting from the Voodoo crapfest) truly believed that tax cuts pay for themselves, wealth does not concentrate but trickles down.
And that free trade meant the Chinese would get prosperous selling us cheap sneakers and paper unbrellas for drinks, under "Comparative Advantage" ,while we would be selling them blue jeans and "high tech stuff" from our factories where we had a "tech and American brand" advantage.

All shit.
Not that liberals don't have a mountain of baggage of discredited theories they cling to.
But Voodoo is shit.
"Tax cuts solve deficits" is crap.
Globalization and brainless free trade and transfer of whatever was once a nations supposed "comparative advantage" to the lowest cost labor pool the Ruling Elites select is shit. Ricardo's theories are now on the scrap heap.

Lucien said...

This is why I hate hysterical responses to spectacular one-off events or other anecdotal evidence.

The chance that a fourth grader will be shot to daeath in school is essentially 0 (many more will die in auto accidents on their way to school).
The chance that an anybody will highjack an airplane with a box cutter, nail clipper, corkscrew or swiss-army knife is 0.
When a the combination of a 9.5 earthquake and a tsunami sitll can't produce a catastrohic failure in an old Japanes nuclear plant, then there is no reason to stop building new, modern nuclear plants.
But how can you fill 24 hours of air time on a news channel if you take that approach?

Marshal said...

Cedarford:

You forgot to tell us why it's the jews' fault.

Cedarford said...

Robert Cook said...
That 55% of the American public support a crazy or stupid idea is hardly unprecedented...or surprising.

It is pretty easy to do polls that show how stupid and uninformed the American public is. How easily they can be manipulated by the Puppeteers.

Same idiots wanting schools made into airport-type gathering places protected by Armed Hero government employees that cost them nothing...also believe by 70% that we should just get rid of the deficits by repudiating our debts.

Again, we have to agree with HL Mencken:

""No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

Darrell said...

How do you vet these security guards? If you start mass hiring of security guards for schools that will invite every whacko who wants to shoot up a school.

Do you have trouble reading or comprehending? We already have trained cops. Most would love a couple of hours of extra work. They are already trained and they have the power to make arrests when they need to and are already available to testify in courts when required. People always look for complcated solutions when the easy ones are staring them in the face.

Robert Cook said...

"40K cost would be slave wages in a public school. Try 120K(wages, benefits, pension) to start."

Methinks you have an exaggerated idea what the average teacher in the public schools makes.

My brother taught high school for 14 years in Florida and when he left the field several years ago he had only just reached the $30K salary threshold. (He left because he started his own lawn business during the summers off and he quickly realized he was making more as a yard man than as a teacher in the public schools. He has been a self-employed yard man full time since he left teaching.)

Obviously, pay scales for public teachers will vary by area of the country, but to assume public school teachers are, as a group, pulling down big bucks (for--presumably--doing "light" work in easy circumstances) is fantasy.

Frankly, public school teachers should be paid much more than they are...certainly more than the heads of Chase Bank, Goldman Sachs, and other such parasites of the public's wealth.

Robert Cook said...

"Remember growing up in the 1950s and 1960s when armed off-duty cops hung around your high school every day? I do."

No.

I went to grade school in the 60s and entered high school in the 1969/1970 school year. We never had any armed or unarmed off-duty cops at my schools. But then, I didn't go to public school in a big urban area. Maybe things were different outside the big cities.

Robert Cook said...

"The press is now owned by hard core 'progressives'."

Ah...if only this were so.

Darrell said...

Cookie,

Didn't you say that you were born in the UK and lived there (when you were scolding us about not knowing what Europeans thought)? Did you leave that detail out?

They were just around. And not a single person ever felt threatened by that.

cubanbob said...

My brother taught high school for 14 years in Florida and when he left the field several years ago he had only just reached the $30K salary threshold. (He left because he started his own lawn business during the summers off and he quickly realized he was making more as a yard man than as a teacher in the public schools. He has been a self-employed yard man full time since he left teaching.)


Don't know where your brother taught in FL but my ex pulls fifty a year as a schoolteacher in Fl.
Not including benefits. Now if she was willing to work a little harder she could work sumer school and tutor for cash on the side as well. A lot of FL teachers do just that and in the combination can pull close to $100k a year (and not all of it sees the tax man). Of course to pull a hundred grand a year you do need to put the hours in. So as you were saying...
As for Goldman Sachs, nothing is stopping a teacher from applying for a job with them.


I would to see some nervy republican offer an exchange in gun rights with the left, greater control to be offset with no public official receiving armed security. It would be a pleasent turn of events to align the interests of the ruling class with those of the ruled.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

Just as public security officers are armed and held accountable when transgressing our laws, so too should ordinary citizens be armed and held accountable when transgressing our laws. There is no legitimate reason to preemptively assume guilt of one class of citizens over another without cause. The government is not constituted of men and women with superior morality or self-control. The relevant issue is equal rights (to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness) and accountability, and the Second Amendment, among others, which ensures citizens equal rights.

Cedarford said...

Marshal said...
Cedarford:

You forgot to tell us why it's the jews' fault.

======================
Oh, it took more than Jews in the Banks, Ruling Elites, and in the trade-regulatory spheres.

There are lots of architects in America's decline.
Lots of blacks screaming mo' entitlements.
Free trade conservatives.
Jews.
WASPS.
The lawyers that have ossified America, lost much of our nimbleness and competitiveness to the lawyers well paid game where all society grovels and pleads "Mr Lawyer, Ms. Lawyer....May I?? PLease??"

Robert Cook said...

"Didn't you say that you were born in the UK and lived there (when you were scolding us about not knowing what Europeans thought)? Did you leave that detail out?"

No, not at all. I've never been outside the continental United States.

Seeing Red said...

I think it was Freder who's a limey.

His knickers really do get in a twist if we talk about about England.

Robert Cook said...

"As for Goldman Sachs, nothing is stopping a teacher from applying for a job with them."

But then their worth to society would immediately plummet and they would not deserve to earn more, as, instead of teach young minds they would be involved in the shell game--the fraud--of "making" money from money.

By their very endeavors, public school teachers are more valuable to society than Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein or whatever other thief is in the corner suite at any given time.

Robert Cook said...

"Don't know where your brother taught in FL but my ex pulls fifty a year as a schoolteacher in Fl."

Even that's not necessarily a lot of money, especially given the variables of where in Florda your ex lives and teaches, and relative to the pre- and post-school hours work and prep she and other teachers must put in. If she is in Ocala or Niceville, it may be a very handsome salary; in Miami or West Palm Beach, probably not so much.

hombre said...

As a profession, journalism has the highest concentration of fools, followed closely by motion picture execs and actors and politicians.

Hagar said...

Robert Cook and cubanbob,

Both of you need to give dates, inflation being what it has been.

And, "what you make" is not what you cost. My "rental rate" is 3 times "what I make" in order for my boss to make a profit on my work.
And no, he is not rich, or at least not that "rich."

Cedarford said...

Darrell said...
How do you vet these security guards? If you start mass hiring of security guards for schools that will invite every whacko who wants to shoot up a school.

Do you have trouble reading or comprehending? We already have trained cops. Most would love a couple of hours of extra work. They are already trained and they have the power to make arrests when they need to and are already available to testify in courts when required. People always look for complcated solutions when the easy ones are staring them in the face.

===================
Stand by for your local taxes to explode as your Armed Hero government employees salivate at the thought of all the new hires and huge overtime checks and OT-driven pension maxouts they will get.
I imagine besides your local hero cops, there will be all sorts of hero government employees you never think much about demanding to get in on the Gravy Train. Probie officers with gun permits, hero correctional officers and state fish and game enforcement, the hero Feds of Homeland security looking for a piece of the action.

And a beleagured middle class most of who do not own guns, will be asking who best pays for not just their armed hero government protectors of The Children!! - but all those in inner cities where the money for armed heroes is scarce.

It is not out of the question that there will be a strong push by voters - the majority being non gun owners - to make the gun owners pay for the new armed government Heroes.

Per a gun property tax which would require guns be registered like cars and other items of value in order so locals can collect proper taxes.
Federal taxes on ammo and firearms.
Federal tax on all businesses that employ private armed security staff that are not government heroes working part-time or retired gov heroes sucking up triple pensions already.

Harrington said...

I'm not sure most people know this but in Eau Claire, Wi., both the IRS office and the Social Security office have armed, (but not uniformed) guards. At the IRS office, the guard must pass you through the entry, (and his pistol is fully visible). At the SS office the guard is more passive and is just sitting, observing, although here also the pistol is fully displayed. My question is, do all other such offices have guards? Why would this practice be considered beneficial in these venues but not in schools?

Robert Cook said...

Hagar,

My brother left teaching in 2000.

He tells me that right now, an assistant principal in Duval Country makes an average of only $60,000.00. He says teachers in Duval at present earn between $33,000.00 and $55,000.00.

One of my high school classmates has been and is still teaching at the high school (in Duval County) we graduated from, and where my brother also taught before quitting the field. I don't know how much money my old classmate is making, but he lives around the corner from my mother in a small, home left to him by his grandmother. His wife is also employed, (not as a teacher) and they live modestly, so I can only speculate that their combined salaries are hardly riches.

EMD said...

Our school district just fired a 2nd-grade teacher for growing marijuana with her husband in McMansion of a house. She was making $96k at the time of her dismissal for teaching 2nd graders.

Revenant said...

But then their worth to society would immediately plummet and they would not deserve to earn more, as, instead of teach young minds they would be involved in the shell game--the fraud--of "making" money from money.

I tire of hearing teachers described as ultimately valuable to society.

In a society where most of the population consists of illiterate and innumerate unskilled workers, yes, the college-educated K-12 teacher brings something unique to the table. But that doesn't describe the America of 2013. It doesn't even describe the America of 1813, really.

The task of educating children is given over to professional teachers not because only they can do it, but because the children's parents have more productive things to do with their time. A society in which "teaching third grade" is a lucrative career is an ass-backwards society. You don't want your best and your brightest teaching basic skills to children, because it doesn't *take* the best and the brightest to teach basic skills to children. It takes the best and the brightest to do the things children can't even begin to understand.

Hell, it takes the people of average skills and abilities to do the things children can't even begin to understand.

Revenant said...

He tells me that right now, an assistant principal in Duval Country makes an average of only $60,000.00. He says teachers in Duval at present earn between $33,000.00 and $55,000.00.

The per-capita income of Duval County is $26,394. Median *household* income for Duval County is under $50,000, and of course most households have two earners.

So even before you count their generous benefits package and the ability to retire in their early 50s, teachers in Duval County are doing quite well.

Robert Cook said...

How do you know what "generous benefits packages" teachers in Duval County receive? They're hardly uniform throughout the country or within each state.

Someone up above asserted public school teachers make 120K with all compensation and benefits accounted for. That figure was not backed up with data, and I doubt very much the benefits offered to teachers in Duval Country bring their total compensation up to 120K equivalent.

Moreover, teachers are often thought to teach only 6 or 7 hours a day, (if not less), but they have plenty of extra off-hours time they must devote to prepping, grading papers and exams, meeting with students (and parents), attending school affairs, etc. Amortized over the total hours they must devote to their jobs, that $33,000.00 to $55,000.00 spread (the higher salaries presumably only achieved after years at the job) is not necessarily so extravagant.

No doubt some public school teachers are compensated very well, as they should be if they've worked enough years in their profession, but the sneering assumption that the entire cohort of public school teachers across the nation is somehow making "too much," that they're raking in unearned riches doing easy jobs is a lie.

Revenant said...

How do you know what "generous benefits packages" teachers in Duval County receive?

I looked at the Employee Benefits section of the Duval County Schools website.

I realize my approach doesn't have the legitimacy of "this dude I know IRL told me teachers here are totally underpaid, man", but I'm doing the best I can. :)

Moreover, teachers are often thought to teach only 6 or 7 hours a day, (if not less), but they have plenty of extra off-hours [very sad story snipped]

You're also forgetting the four months of vacation time per year.

Anyway, salaried white-collar jobs normally involve the occasional (or not-so-occasional) long hours. You are conflating the extra hours teachers must work if they want to do a fantastic job (quite a few, just like in other professions) with the extra hours they're actually contractually required to work, which are minimal.

Given that teachers are tenured and collectively represented, and thus receive neither rewards for good work nor punishment for mediocre work, it is inaccurate to describe *good* teachers' long hours as a requirement of the job. They aren't. They're a self-imposed requirement of people with a strong work ethic, which does not describe the majority of public school teachers.

Which is one of many reasons why good teachers are willing to take pay cuts in exchange for untenured positions in private schools. Not only do you work with students whose parents actually care -- you work beside *teachers* who actually care.

No doubt some public school teachers are compensated very well

Not some. All.

Darrell said...

Off-duty cops have already been vetted. They are already subject to professional review. Again, stating a problem where none exists.

AlanKH said...

NRA approach popular w/ 55% of the country...more evidence that the South is becoming isolated again.

/sarc, y'all

Kirk Parker said...

pduggie,

Not at all, it's actually a worthless idea. "Alarms"? Yeah and what will the staff do to respond if someone breaks the glass and takes the "emergency gun"?


machine,

You contemptible person: no armed guards were present at the location where VA Tech shooting occurred.

Kirk Parker said...

Brew,

"The public schools are under the control of leftists..."

Well, that's an interesting point. Maybe I need to rethink my position; maybe the NYT is right that a group of armed teachers would devolve into a mob--I never really looked at it from that perspective.

Dan Tanna said...

So Anne, do you think the NRA's proposal is crazy? Why or why not?