"In a letter to Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., a Justice Department official said the privilege applies to documents that explain how the department learned that there were problems with the investigation called Operation Fast and Furious."
ADDED: I'm going to add my "Obama is like Nixon" tag. I think a lot of Americans, when they hear "executive privilege" think of Nixon. And, unfortunately for Obama, we've been hearing plenty of talk about Watergate lately, what with the 40-year anniversary of the break-in. Most notably: "Woodward and Bernstein: 40 years after Watergate, Nixon was far worse than we thought." Ironically, that was a mainstream media effort to help Obama.
But Obama has suddenly chosen to look like Nixon. It must be worth it. And without the documents, we must speculate about what is in them.
ALSO: This creates an occasion to look back and see when Presidents other than Nixon have invoked executive privilege. I'm going to rely on Wikipedia, so correct me if I'm wrong. After Nixon, the next President to invoke executive privilege was Bill Clinton, in 1998, trying to keep aides from testifying in the Lewinsky scandal. The district court judge ruled against him. Clinton also used executive privilege to negotiate the terms of his own testimony in the scandal.
George W. Bush used executive privilege a few times, as you can see at the Wikipedia link.
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139 comments:
Need to add the "Obama is Nixon" tag.
Thus spoke the king.
..add a "Grim Milestone" tag for the 300 dead Mexicans and Brian Terry.
Most transparent administration ever.
So...total cover up, eh?
Impeach Holder immediately.
I wonder what discussions among Holder, Obama, and other top folks there are like. They probably never put anything in writing or on voicemail. More like hushed conversations in a corner:
You know that issue we have?
Yeah.
Well, we need to do something decisive about it.
Well, that might be problematical.
Shh! Don't...don't say silly things. I need your help here.
OK. Well, do what you need.
...but the Oval office doesn't have corners.
Most transparent administration ever.
In a way....they are.
Not a positive way. We know, every time out, they will take the action that will do the least good for the American people and their corruption is blatantly obvious to anybody watching.
Impeach Holder. Let the Democrats defend keeping him in office.
Since, I understand, that Executive Privledge applies to communications directly with the president, it appears that Barry is involved in the certianly reprehensible and probably criminal goings-on of Fast and Furious. Or at least the cover-up part of it.
One has to wonder what Holder has on our prez that has kept him from being thrown under that big-ass bus.
Barry better be careful or he may get dragged down too.
Totally in keeping with Obama's right to kill American citizens presumed involved with al Queda or al Queda affiliated organizations.
Who voted for this asshole, and why?
It's time to invoke Congressional privilege.
Dare we presume this means it's not just "my people"'s fingerprints all over this but (be still, my beating heart) Commandante Zero's, too?
damikesc said...
So...total cover up, eh?
Impeach Holder immediately.
Impeach Barry immediately.<
FIFY
The Fast and Furious conspiracy reaches to the top. It was a deep cover operation under the guise of a Bush Admin plan to track some guns through Mexican hands.
The Obama Conspiracy used that as a cover to flood guns from legal dealers into a Drug Gang War in Mexico with no tracking being done at all.
Their goal was creating a Crisis of guns from the USA. Then under standard Crisis rules, Obama's conspiracy gets the Dems to outlaw what legal gun dealers do as a Foreign Policy i ssue with Mexican and UN help.
This goes to the top, so that is now priviledged truth. If it was only Holder, then he would simply resign.
Whatever benefits Obama politically seems to be the governing principle.
Whether it's suppressing F&F documents or revealing intelligence sources and methods.
The coverup now reaches all the way up to the very top! The MSM will have to start covering the mess.
How many youngsters affected by Obama's immigration dictats have relations murdered using weapons provided by Obama's Fast and Furious?
I had read a number of articles I assumed were written by people more experienced at the labyrinthan machinations of D.C. than yours truly. Most of them discounted the executive privilege route because it was "too late in the game". Why? I don't know, but none of the articles I read on the subject expanded on that angle.
For Holder to request a meeting over the documents in question, knowing full well what the committee's stance on those documents is (give them up, we have a right to see them), and then show up saying he was making an extraordinary indulgence by offering to summarize those documents in a private briefing is stupidity on parade.
It will be uncomfortable for many MSM papers and networks to report this since they have generally witheld any reports of Fast & Furious from their audiences.
Yep,Richard M. Nixon redux. One can only hope the results are the same.
Who is the POTUS? We are in power. We will do what we want. I mean, who is GOP to question us. You have no idea what we will do after Nov. We are in power till Jan. 2017. Okay, if you do not like it, tough luck.
We will dismantle, disrupt, and defeat the GOP. Today, tomorrow, and always.
Why? Because everyone loves us. Just read NYT, listen to NPR, watch PBS. We are LOVED. No one loves the GOP. No One. Not a soul.
Wow. The Romney campaign should start screaming this from the rooftops. Cover-up!
Unless - do you think this could be a awesomely brilliant false-flag operation by the Obama campaign, tricking Romney into shift gears from the economy, and then when they finally send the documents, "because we want to be transparent and do the right thing", there's not much there?
I'll be interested to see the response from the Democratic side of the aisle. I hope it's a lot more than nothing.
The coverup now reaches all the way to the very top! The MSM will have to start covering the mess.
I don't care who you are, that is some world-class funny right there.
There are enough Democrats in the Senate and House to make sure this investigation goes nowhere.
This is all a big nothing, anyway. That's what garbage was saying the other day, and he's an infallible oracle on all matters political.
I have realized that I am not really all that conservative, I just hate the double standard in the mainstream media.
Six Hundred newspapers would blare Fast and Furious on the front page every day if Bush were in office.
President Obama has managed to win office while the NYT and Wash Post are still in business, and can carry the water for him.
They will be gone soon, but for now, this will be a 2 day story, "nothing to see here, keep it moving."
What I don't understand is why anyone ever thought Eric Holder was anything but a corrupt nincompoop to begin with.
I strongly suspect that Holder knows where many Democratic bodies are buried from his previous work in the Clinton Justice Dept, and that, and his race, had much to do with his attainment of his present position.
"without the documents, we must speculate about what is in them."
Not that this is my preferred outcome, but in the upcoming campaign season Repubs are now free to speculate the worst. What's the Administration's defense? To claim it's not true? Who's going to believe them (other than the garages of the world.)
IANAL.
It seems to me, though, that documents that explain how the department learned there were problems with F&F can't include many documents. It's so specific: how they learned about the problem. Nothing about the problem itself, or the chain of authorization, or how many people were killed, just about how the DoJ learned of the problem. Maybe I'm overthinking things, or maybe the AP has under-reported it and that's really not how the Executive Privilege request was framed.
What I don't understand is why anyone ever thought Eric Holder was anything but a corrupt nincompoop to begin with.
Marc Rich doesn't think so.
Belmont Club's speculation a few days ago was that the documents incrminate Obama, either criminally or politically.
Otherwise Holder wouldn't have played the constitutional crisis card. That requires Obama's support.
What are the high stakes, is the implied question.
Who's going to believe them (other than the garages of the world.)
Sorry, but my garage thinks they're full of shit.
Issa must have gotten awfully close to the WH in his investigation. Well inside the front door, and heading into the Oval Office.
Eric Holder, as not for whom the bus warms up; it warms up for thee.
There have been rumors that Boehner had only tacit support for Issa's demands due to it's unk-unks on the political fallout and it's effect no the upcoming elections. Given this declaration of EP, I wonder if House GOP leadership support will dry up completely.
I am more curious than ever about what they are covering up. It has got to be more - a lot more - than just 2000 guns "walking" to Mexico yo be worth this kind of stonewalling.
I'm with TWM and confused.
Till today, the operative story out of Holder's mouth was, "I wasn't informed. It was a low level operation, I wasn't briefed.. Those briefs sent to me? Nope, didn't read them. My Asst AG's that signed the wiretaps? Nope, they didn't know the real story. The real story? Nothing to be conerned about. We've investigated. The Local US Attorney? He quit. Took the 5th. The ATF Director? Loser. fired him. Nothing to see."
"Whoahh! you gona find me in contempt? The Boss claims executive Priv to protect the advice I gave him on the operation?"
How can you at the same time claim ignorance about a low level op and claim that it is protected advice from you to the POTUS?
Do that think we're that stupid, or the MSM that pliant?
Mr. President has suggested that "Judge" John Stennis be summoned from the grave to read the materials and offer a summary to Congress.
Obama has stepped in it now.
When you start to hide things, people can really begin speculating on what it is that you are hiding.
How did it go? It's not the crime, it's the cover up.
Though, that's usually true when there aren't dead bodies. When there are, it is still the crime.
"Michael Haz said...
Issa must have gotten awfully close to the WH in his investigation. Well inside the front door, and heading into the Oval Office.
Eric Holder, as not for whom the bus warms up; it warms up for thee."
Yep, he'll resign on a Friday.
Drill SGT,
Yes, and hell yes.
Maybe Holder can submit some composite memos detailing how he overcame the entrenched racism in the DOJ and how, in an epiphany, he understood that his great love for America made the struggle all the more meaningful and worthwhile.....I read the Woodward & Bernstein piece. It was extremely self serving. If Nixon was supremely evil, they were supremely brave and honorable in opposing him--no matter what tactics they used. Given the revelations that have come out about Kennedy and Johnson, I just don't buy the uniqueness of Nixon's evil.....I wouldn't put Fast & Furious in the same league as Watergate, but it's certainly as big as Iran Contra, but the press is covering it as though it's even less of a scandal than the Marc Rich pardon.
The Drill SGT said...
Do that think we're that stupid, or the MSM that pliant?
Why do you think MSLSD's slogan is, "Lean Forward"?
My understanding of the Exec Priv claim means that the POTUS Had to have been briefed on at least the work product from those docs.
Up till now, they have denied that F&F had any connection inside the WH and all the "cut outs" excuse me, I mean "DoJ minions" were still in place.
Is this a campaign Hail Mary to rev up the base? after all impeachment worked for Clinton in the short term...
How the AP is reporting the claim of exec privilege in my local paper:
"The Justice Dept says that President Barack Obama has asserted executive privilege to withhold documents a House committee is seeking in an investigation of a flawed gun-smuggling probe."
"Flawed"?! - don't you just love the MSM covering for their beloved DEMS.
{sigh} ... soooo Awesome!
Plouffe Sunday refused to say that Obama would agree to be questioned like Bush was in the Plame case.
You know he knew all about it! It was a way to blame Mexican violence on US guns.
Sometimes I think, fear, that Obama will just pack up and leave when the hotseat gets too hot. "They don't deserve me."
I wonder if Obama's relatively scandal-free presidency, at least as covered by the the MSM, will come back to hurt him. Under Clinton & Bush 43, there was a steady flow of scandals, investigations, etc. A lot of people became immune to the outrage of the day, seeing the accusations & retorts as politics as usual.
Obama, though, hasn't dealt with a lot of scandals that have gone mainstream. I suspect people's immunity to them has waned a bit. So if Fast & Furious goes mainstream now, just four months or so before the election, it could have a real impact.
I am kinda surprised they did not delay the EP assertion until after Rush's show was over today.
They learned of it early and thought it was a good idea. They gave speeches citing the same bogus numbers about guns. Insty was all over that like ... something that covers something heavily. They wanted it to work. It appeared they were all angling for major gun law reform. And that persisted even after gun walker program began to be exposed. Whatever the documents are being talked about show Holder's pants are on
I just now got an idea for joke.
Sorry, easily distracted. The idea built on a cartoon I saw a decade ago. Every person's pants cuffs were rolled up ridiculously. The last frame shows the boss is that way so it's clear that everybody did that to make the boss look good. My cartoon will have everybody's cuffs smoldering with some actually on fire.
Sometimes I think, fear, that Obama will just pack up and leave when the hotseat gets too hot. "They don't deserve me."
Your fear....my hope.
That last wv took 6 times and now I am questioning my own humanity.
* pinches self *
Seems I really am here.
"Belmont Club's speculation a few days ago was that the documents incrminate Obama, either criminally or politically."
Obama does seem awfully comfortable deciding who lives and who dies. If he writes off a few hundred Mexican citizens, so what. He's got bigger fish to fry. But that's one bit of information I'm sure his people won't leak to the NYT.
In 2007 Obama told CNN that it is wrong "To Hide Behind Executive Privilege"
President Obama 3/9/09: "government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure."
On January 21, 2009, his second day in office, Pres Obama issued a memorandum on transparency calling for "national commitment" to open government.
Isn't Holder an Eagle Scout though?
That means he could never ever do anything wrong. EVAR
We're best off taking a wait and see approach, like we're doing with Scott Walker. It's terribly irresponsible to speculate!
We're best off taking a wait and see approach, like we're doing with Scott Walker. It's terribly irresponsible to speculate!
It's amazing, GM, that POTUS would invoke EP on something dreamed up by Breitbart, isn't it?
Ann,
your comparisons to Nixon are unfair.
Obama was a Con Law Professor and if anyone knows the constitution, it is him!
As others have noted, executive privilege applies between communications between subordinate branches and the president--if Mr Holder is asserting executive privilige is certainl implies Mr Obama was aware of F and F. Both Mr Obama and Mr Holder are consummae liars to the denigration of our republic--both deserve impeachment, but that isnt going to happen--god willing the electorate will in November throw both their sorry asses out on the street.
CNN says this is nothing at all...only GOP silly politics.
Then the talking poiny the Dems arranged with the "Holder Meeting" yesterday is repeated, that Holder has made extraordinary compliance already.
They really do believe we are that stupid.
The fun part is hearing the Dem Congress persona ( all African-American) make the delay pleas and act all confused. But they don't have their heart in it. Congress is an American Government power too, and they are half hearted in complying with the Imperial Presidency that wants Congress that includes them eliminated.
"We're best off taking a wait and see approach, like we're doing with Scott Walker. It's terribly irresponsible to speculate!"
-- The difference being, Walker is not allowed to talk -- per the law. Holder has chosen to not talk. So, yes. When one person is restricted by the law, we give him or her the benefit of the doubt. When a person weasels away from their responsibility, it reflects poorly on them.
It's terribly irresponsible to speculate!
See? It's all a big holler over nothing. Garbage has spoken.
And Walker's going to be indicted any day now!!!
PatCA said...
Sometimes I think, fear, that Obama will just pack up and leave when the hotseat gets too hot. "They don't deserve me."
Apparently, he, like Adolf when all the Hitler vids were recorded, see it that way, but that's not a fear.
That's a prayer.
garage mahal said...
Isn't Holder an Eagle Scout though?
That means he could never ever do anything wrong. EVAR
We're best off taking a wait and see approach, like we're doing with Scott Walker. It's terribly irresponsible to speculate!
I love the smell of flop sweat in the morning.
Roger J said...god willing the electorate will in November throw both their sorry asses out on the street.
I see tire marks in Eric's future as, The Won reluctantly accepts General (how I hate to use that term) Holder's resignation.
The Obamacare ruling will help to bury the executive priviledge story.
Thus the timing.
We're best off taking a wait and see approach, like we're doing with Scott Walker. It's terribly irresponsible to speculate!
Absolute best possible case scenario:
Holder is running an agency that is able to do these massive projects that send thousands of guns to Mexico and that leads to a lot of deaths, including of a US border agent without him knowing about it.
The BEST case scenario humanly possible just has him being so incompetent he shouldn't be in office.
There is a difference between Nixon and Obama in this comparison.
Nixon always came across like what he was doing was in the national interest. Obama doesn't even go that far -- it's more a droit du seigneur thing for him.
1975 Groove Tube movie clip with Richard Belzer: "I'm the fuckin' President!"
http://youtu.be/OgTzlXdviWk
"Since, I understand, that Executive Privledge applies to communications directly with the president, it appears that Barry is involved in the certianly reprehensible and probably criminal goings-on of Fast and Furious. Or at least the cover-up part of it."
Heh.
I figured that the gun control lobby aspect was a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was up to. Much more likely than conspiracy, as people had been saying, to use this program to push domestic anti-gun policy goals, since in the real world conspiracy is generally too much work for too little gain.
But what if Obama's direct involvement was to tell Holder to keep the lid on it because he'd made promises about gun control?
Could be anything.
Ironically, that was a mainstream media effort to help Obama.
The strategy by the MFM to ignore this story for over a year is also backfiring, as it is now bubbling to the surface at the worst possible time.
I love the smell of flop sweat in the morning.
It was a tsunami of flop sweat.
The Obamacare ruling will help to bury the executive priviledge story.
Thus the timing.
That may just be a side effect. The timing on this particular square dance was due to Issa's scheduling of consideration on the House floor today.
Can't they go ahead with contempt charges? EP requires that POTUS knew about the documents and their contents. Holder held the line at his subordinates regarding how high knowledge of F&F had gone, correct?
Tim said...
Totally in keeping with Obama's right to kill American citizens presumed involved with al Queda or al Queda affiliated organizations.
=================
Don't like Obama, but if you hate killing enemy that happen to have US citizenship, take it up with FDR...who ordered thousands of German-Americans, thousands of Japanese Americans, and tens of thousands of Italian-Americans fighting with the enemy be targeted and killed if possible.
Of course, FDR just drew on what Lincoln had done..the "extrajudicial killing" of 300,000 US citizens, the burning of several of their cities, and the green light to pillage their farms, businesses.
And Lincoln just drew on what example George Washington set, when he marched and targeted Shays rebels for killing or a capture and hanging as enemy traitors.
All any "precious US citizenship possessing!!" Islamoid working with Al Qaeda is - is simply an enemy. If they are within the reach of our legal system to arrest them and in the ability of leftist and progressive Jewish lawyers to defend them - fine. Charge them with treason.
Otherwise, they are just enemy, that may be lawfully killed in war.
Can't they go ahead with contempt charges?
Yes, and they are doing so.
Isn't Holder an Eagle Scout though?
yes, he's just like Karleton Armstrong, Fred Phelps, and Marion Barry
Obama is worse than Nixon. That ought to be the tag. Nixon's crime was obstruction of justice. Obama's crime is also obstruction of justice, but his actions are aggravated by complicity in the mass murder of Mexicans and U.S. border officers.
Interesting twist. Obviously they are trying to hide something and get past the election.
It may work because fo the protection of the press. It is a good example of how the liberal press makes a difference. A republican executive privilege play would headline the network news. They will try to bury this one, which probably is part of the WH calculation. Can Fox and the blogosphere make it a major issue? Maybe, if Romney pushes it as well.
Ops there goes another rubber tree...
Sooner or later SOMEONE is going to jail... and Obama goes on permanent vacation.
Oh, look!
At hearing last week, Holder claimed predecessor Mukasey had been briefed about gunwalking in Operation Wide Receiver.
Now, DOJ is retracting that statement and claiming Holder “inadvertently” made that claim to the Committee.
I'm really stunned by this.
I am.
my question: does not asserting executive privilige take this to the highest level? it is one thing the see F and F as a rogue DOJ operation; but when executive privilege is asserted it seems to me that Mr Obama was certainly informed on the operation. "general" holder is slime mold, but not nearly as the POTUS
@Quaestor, who wrote:
"Obama's crime is also obstruction of justice, but his actions are aggravated by complicity in the mass murder of Mexicans and U.S. border officers."
Now, now. There was only one Border Patrol officer murdered. And the 300 or so Mexicans were murdered a few at a time, so you can't call it a mass murder. It's not like Obama was Pol Pot or something, puh-leez!
There may not be much of a Latino Dream bump for the Won, once it is clear in the Spanish press that Obama was directly involved in the deaths of hundreds of innocent Mexicans...
damikesc said...
The BEST case scenario humanly possible just has him being so incompetent he shouldn't be in office.
That couldhave been the route if they had thrown Holder under the bus earlier, but now incomptence by Holder no longer covers The Won, if he also was briefed...
PS: How can EP cover such a large number of documents? Surely 95% of them went from Holder downward, not DoJ to the WH?
Yeah, I want him gone too, but I want his ideology defeated on the merits in an election.
Instability scares me.
Again, President Obama needs to be impeached before voters run him out of office.
The Drill SGT said...
There may not be much of a Latino Dream bump for the Won, once it is clear in the Spanish press that Obama was directly involved in the deaths of hundreds of innocent Mexicans...
There doesn't seem to be anyway.
HotAir took a look at Gallup and Rasmussen's tracking polls and found almost no bump.
But, yeah, this could change the playing field considerably.
The media just might end up hanging by their own demagoguery.
Now, now. There was only one Border Patrol officer murdered.
Well, that's a relief.
@Almost Ali: No, Romney should be elected; and then he should be inaugurated immediately after the Electoral College casts its votes, so the lame duck Obama doesn't wreck too much with executive orders.
"my question: does not asserting executive privilige take this to the highest level?"
Seems like there's gotta be something really bad in there.
I know one can assert privilege and invoke privilege. Can one also exert privilege? WaPo uses that verb in its headline, as does Ann, but it sounds wrong. Am I out of step?
Mr Obama richly deserves impeachment but it isnt going to happen--it will remain for the American electorate to cast judgment in november. God Willing
One additional irony is that like the Edwards story, if the press had covered this (F&F) more honestly (or at least more openly, even if they spun the hell out of it) from the start, they could control this part. But since they have downplayed it as a second rate local problem, the EP claim is explosive.
another mega bad week for the Won, who is faceing potential SCOTUS nightmares the next two Fridays
Obama has handed the GOP a decisive strategic advantage which can sweep them to landslide victory in November. The advantage is this: Keep the initiative away from Obama. He's tried several times to shift the national attention away from his abysmal record on the economy to something frivolous and notional like "the War on Women" gay marriage, amnesty for Mexican boy scouts, etc. They've all failed. Instead of being hobbled by controversy Romney is gaining strength. He's on the attack in states that were considered "true blue" only a few weeks ago but are now seen as winnable for the GOP even by the faithful water-carriers of the MSM. If Obama can't turn the national conversation to something other than his harebrained ideology and incompetence, he'll loose big time. His handlers know it, and so does Big Money, which is drying up the PACs.
Issa, or his unnamed legislative aide known everywhere as Reliable Sources, needs to leak the most damaging facts, speculations, suppositions and downright fabrications about Obama's role in F&F to Matt Drudge, who has the honor of having rolled the first pebbles which started the Monica Lewinski avalanche. Drudge knows how to time stories for maximum damage. Well-played this "executive privilege" maneuver will keep the WH in retreat all the way to Election Day.
The NY Times gave the EP claim a blurb on the front page of their online paper.
They muttered something about a "failed gun-running investigation."
No mention of Brian Terry.
Meanwhile, in the Asia Pacific section of the World section we find this unimportant, insignificant piece of back-of-the paper news:
"KHOST, Afghanistan — At least 21 people, apparently including three American soldiers, were killed on Wednesday by a suicide bomber who attacked an American and Afghan military checkpoint in this provincial capital, Afghan officials said."
That was under the headline "Suicide Bomber Strikes Coalition Convoy in Eastern Afghanistan."
I think this would be a nice time for a post on how McCain would have been worse.
"I know one can assert privilege and invoke privilege. Can one also exert privilege?"
When the claim is this far over the top, it's an exertion.
Holder just retracted the claim that Bush's AG knew about F&F. The plot, she thickens.
Who's got the popcorn?
bgates said...
I think this would be a nice time for a post on how McCain would have been worse.
LOL, he has experience watching a government move weapons across a border into the hands of murders.
Course, that was a war. I suspect that relations with Mexico are going to get chillier.
Living in Arizona, I know McCain knows what those guns did on both sides of the border, first hand.
Which chapter will this be in "How He Lost Me"?
There are constitutional reasons why impeachment of the president is vitally important.
Meanwhile, the oversight committee has split down party lines regarding Holder being held in contempt of congress. Not that such a response is any great surprise, except when you consider that AG Holder and POTUS are now actively conspiring to cover up a murder. And now their counterparts in congress have joined in that conspiracy.
The media just might end up hanging by their own demagoguery.
...and be hoisted by their own retards.
Executive Orders should be limited to only the most dire of circumstances. Proponents of liberty should be very wary of such power and that should be true of conservative and liberal stripes.
For heaven's sake: does NO ONE in the mainstream media care about murdered Mexicans? Are they ALL bigots except Fox News?
Executive privilege? But I thought Obama has denied any knowledge of F&F. So why the need for executive privilege? Maybe a sophisticate like garbage or Montana Urban Dreck will explain the mystery to us hillbillies.
".I wouldn't put Fast & Furious in the same league as Watergate"
Nobody died in Watergate. There is still the myth that Watergate was a big deal because Nixon was "evil." In fact, he probably didn't know about the burglary and only got entangled because he resented the press allegations about his administration. He also was concerned about the families of those arrested. He was always a softy for his guys.
Privilege, not order.
We might be able to use scorn to force the LSM into real coverage, but I ain't holdin' my breath waitin' for that to happen. And as I have consistently predicted, I say again, Holder will get a Presidential Pardon either the day before Romney is sworn in, or Nov. 3 after Zero wins re-election(doubtful).
President Romney will drop everything in the "spirit of bi-partisanship" and to "heal the country". There will be no repurcusions from F and F, or Solyndra, or fake birth certificates, etc.
The nutless GOP will go along with this because they ARE without a spine, and the democrats will go back to committing crime after crime and walking. SOP.
And then the media, and the government themselves will wonder why they are dispised by the rest of the country. They will be truly puzzled by this.
If you're wishin' for justice I suggest you stack your wishes in one hand and your shit in another, and see which one fills up faster.
@Garage Majal
What sort of man are you to swing from Zeros nut sack like that? Pitiful. You have become a shrill shrieking scorch with no analytical substance at all.
@Americas Politico
See. That's the stuff you used to post that made me think you were a satirist. Keep that sort of thing up. Much more enjoyable to read.
Professor Jacobson has an interesting take:
What all this means, of course, is that Holder has been withholding documents responsive to the House subpoena which have not been turned over. So he has not complied with the House subpoena, since it only was today that he obtained the protection of an Executive Privilege claim from the White House.
Next up: A USSC justice orders Obama and minions to turn over stuff they've been ordered to reveal, and Obama refuses.
I agree with Quaestor. This is an issue with persistent consquences.
It is clear from the Watergate papers and tapes that Nixon and Mitchell had nothing to do with the burglary at Watergate...
Since we do not have access to the papers and any WH video of Holder and Obama's discussions, we do not know "what they knew, and when they knew it".
Is Obama Nixon? Time will tell.
Right now, this may have more political impact than the liberals and progressive Jews running most US media think.
The reason is independents still LIKE Obama personally..and have excused his blunders much as they did Dubya's. "OK, Bush poked the pootch on Iraq..Schiavo..Harriet Miers...but deep down, he is really a decent sort of guy" "Maybe we stick with him and he'll learn from his mistakes.
Now they are thinking..."OK, so Obama is nowhere near as brilliant as he and his boot-lappers think. We all knew that. He screwed up the economy, Obamacare...but he stopped the Neocons from getting us in 3 new major wars.. But now I'm thinking deep down, he is as corrupt and slimey as other Chicago pols. He is not the exception."
I will say I do pine for the days when a Presidential scandal was about a blow job and we had full employment and the national debt was a paltry $5 trillion.
"@Garage Majal
What sort of man are you to swing from Zeros nut sack like that? Pitiful. You have become a shrill shrieking scorch with no analytical substance at all."
No man at all. A sniveling beta mangina. And typical of the frightened, angry, and envious type that flock to left to find comfort in the herd.
This talk of impeachment is disconcerting to say the least. The election is mere months away and consider who the vice president is.
bgates said...
I think this would be a nice time for a post on how McCain would have been worse
==================
Hard to say..
But there would have been no Tea Party, Nancy Pelosi would still be Speaker. And the NY Times would praise McCain for being on modest good terms with the Democrats over the Bipartisan McCain-Pelosi Amnesty, the bipartisan McCain-Pelosi Affordable Care act - despite the two new major wars McCain suckered America into (Iran and name one of 6 other Countries where McCain has talked about sending troops in to help "Freedom Lovers")
MadisonMan,
I'll be interested to see the response from the Democratic side of the aisle. I hope it's a lot more than nothing.
Hope! Ha! Said without a shred of irony!
I have to agree with C4. Mccain would have been much worse. We wouldn't have near thestark difference if he had won. Still the same problems, but NO ONE offering a solution.
I didn't like the big Mac anyway, and seeing what was looming(albeit worse than I thought), I was happy that the libs would get the big shit sandwich on their plate.
This is also why I am not thrilled with Mittens. He holds every position Zero holds, so why is he going to be better?
Oh! He's an R instead of a D. That explains it.
At best he won't be as bad. Hell, Satan wouldn't be as bad.
Mittens ... holds every position Zero holds"
???????
"I wouldn't put Fast & Furious in the same league as Watergate"
The Watergate burglary was not that big a thing, but it cracked open the door to Fibber McGee's closet, and so gave its name to the whole chivaree.
Obama lied and many people DIED.
All for gun control. Yes gun control. Sent guns down there knowing there would be a body count.. nay they HOPED there would be a body ocunt. And then blame the NRA and gun owners here in the USA for it.
They have blood on their hands. LOTS of blood.
F&F is not all that hard to understand. It is simply the most despicable version yet of something the Progressive do all the time.
They are constantly disappointed and frustrated to find that the Right does not in any way 'live up' to their clown caricature of it. And that hurts their narrative, so they fix it, thus:
1. If someone fails to yell 'N*gger' as the CBC and Pelosi walk across the Mall with a large gavel, claim someone did anyway, despite no evidence.
2. If an alleged racist campus fails to hang a noose on the doorknob of a Black professor's office, hang one there yourself!
3. If racist neighbors fail to burn a cross on a Black family's lawn, have the Black family burn one themselves.
4. And if easy access to guns fail to result in increased gang crime, especially near the border (making it hard to agitate for restrictions on the 2nd amendment) then create Fast and Furious.
Progressives lie, people die.
November 11, 2011 – M. Catherine Evans American Thinker article “Mexico Attorney General Wants US Gun Walkers Extradited” says that the number of Mexicans killed with guns purchased under the ATF could number in the thousands……
“Mexico's top cop Attorney General Marisela Morales has requested the extradition of six people suspected of providing guns to drug cartels. She told the Mexico's lower house of Congress last Wednesday three of the suspects are in Texas and three are in California. Morales did not mention the gun walking operation known as Fast and Furious nor did she name the individual suspects. But, according to the Latin American Herald Tribune, "One of the requests involves three people believed to have acquired a large number of weapons under the Fast and Furious program."
“Morales has been under pressure from lawmakers to "punish those responsible" in the U.S for an ATF Phoenix program that supplied high-powered weapons to some of the most vicious killers on the planet. The number of Mexican citizens killed with guns purchased under the ATF operation could number in the thousands, according to Chihuahua state prosecutor Patricia Gonzalez.”
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/mexico_attorney_general_wants_us_gun_walkers_extradited.html
"I have to agree with C4. Mccain would have been much worse."
But, and it's a big but, we wouldn't have ObamaCare.
@Original Mike
Obama Romney
Obamacare=Romneycare
Gun grabber=gun grabber
amnesty for illegals=amnesty for illegals
crony capitalist=crony capitalist
high taxes=high taxes
Mittens is not a conservative, he is a progressive Republican...he's BushII re=incarnate. The only diff between Zero and Romney is degree.
@Carnifex - Romney certainly wasn't my first choice either, but your assertion is so over the top it is not worth my time to rebut. To state there is no difference between them is hyperbole.
But, and it's a big but, we wouldn't have ObamaCare.
We also wouldn't have an impending 6-3 SCOTUS limit on congressional power.
Don't count your chickens, Scott. It may turn out alright in the end.
And if it does, will Althouse be vindicated for voting for Zero? At one point she argued that an Obama Presidency would be better for conservatives than McCain, because rather than a McCain continuation of Bush's failed policies (over spending, etc.) Obama would over reach on the liberal side and there would be an inevitable response. I thought that was too, too risky a horse to ride. I also thought Obama would never over reach to such an extreme as to provoke a consequential back lash. The jury's still out, but I may have underestimated Obama's ideological compulsions and his ham handedness.
Colonel Angus said...
This talk of impeachment is disconcerting to say the least. The election is mere months away and consider who the vice president is.
This certainly gives me pause.
Say it out loud: President Joseph Robinette Biden
Be careful what you wish for...
At one point she argued that an Obama Presidency would be better for conservatives than McCain, because rather than a McCain continuation of Bush's failed policies (over spending, etc.)
Granted, but that's more of a dog-bites-man to those of us that keep track of American politics. McCain was an awful choice and we all knew it.
"Obama lied and many people DIED.
All for gun control. Yes gun control. Sent guns down there knowing there would be a body count.. nay they HOPED there would be a body ocunt. And then blame the NRA and gun owners here in the USA for it."
I'm quoting this from Paul because it so succinctly states the conspiracy theory version of events.
I tend to discount this sort of thing, at least without clear evidence, because the *most likely* thing, IMO, is that the gun-control lobby and Obama, because he wanted to please them, used this as an opportunity to make promises to them to push anti-gun legislation.
The problem with the conspiracy theory version is that as a *plot* it requires a great deal of confidence that the truth will not come out. That no one would find out where the guns were really coming from.
As it is, it took very little time at all, once the anti-gun politics and US-guns-in-Mexico cause was brought up as a threat to 2nd Amendment rights, for the truth of the source of these weapons to come to light and bust the whole thing open.
As a bad idea that may have seemed like a good idea at the time... this is embarrassing, certainly. But can it be so embarrassing that it becomes a national secret? Particularly when it's NOT a secret?
If there is no point in protecting the *program*, then it's got to be protecting the cover-up, the "keep the lid on this" orders, the advice, perhaps, not to use US guns in Mexico as a political tool, please, Mr. President.
"They have blood on their hands. LOTS of blood."
This part is true in any case.
"McCain was an awful choice and we all knew it."
No argument from me on that point.
I'd love to see GW Bush blamed for F&F. Then I'd like to see him defend himself against the charges by demanding every single bit of evidence to prove his innocence. Which would probably take a series of lawsuits against this present AG and POTUS.
Wow, every separate part of what I just posted made sense but all together it's incomprehensible.
To try to be clear... I find it unlikely that Obama and the anti-gun constituency knew where the guns had come from, they just knew that there were guns from the US and planned to use that for political gain.
This isn't the same as planning ahead of time to walk the guns to Mexico in order to create the situation that they'd later attempt to take advantage of.
But communications after-the-fact that informed the President of the potential pit-falls of highlighting US guns in Mexico and any instructions on what to do about that could be equally damning, or nearly so.
That there is an obvious cover-up, for no apparent reason, of a program that is already blown wide open, lends a great deal of legitimacy to sentiments such as Paul expressed.
Althouse challenges: "It must be worth it. And without the documents, we must speculate about what is in them."
Only a couple comments reply to this challenge. I'm with the "traditionalguy" commenter, but just want to clarify the way I see things, and ask others to verify or correct my impressions:
1. Bush administration had a program that allowed guns to be purchased and tracked, with the idea of arresting the purchasers.
2. What really changed with fast and furious is that there was no longer an attempt to track the guns. (This was the testimony of ATF agents to Issa's committee some time in the last year -- they were amazed and angry about instructions that could not track the guns.)
3. Why make this change? (This is what the missing documents could tell us.) The only reason that has been suggested is by Obama/Holder opponents: the administration wanted to create a scandal -- guns purchased in the US are used by narco-terrorists in Mexico. This scandal would then serve as a factual basis for pushing for more stringent gun control legislation.
4. So to speculate along these lines, the withheld documents might show: (a) Holder (or other high DOJ appointee) explicitly approved the change that would not track the gun purchases. (b) Holder and DOJ appointees discuss the strategy of creating a gun scandal to increase support for gun control. (c) some communication between Holder/DOJ, and Obama/WhiteHouse discussing this strategy.
Obama should have thrown Holder under the bus long ago. This isn't going to go away, 300 dead! The dem media (aka msm) will be forced to cover it as the GOP issues contempt of congress charges vs Holder and eventually impeaches Obama. Constitutional crisis cannot be ignored, even by the msm dem propagandists. Too bad for Obama that he doesn't understand the constitution.
The GOP needs to time this right, to bring it to a boil at just the right time, don't prematurely climax. BTW, this is a great opportunity to blast the msm as dem propagandists and to continue to destroy their reputation and livelihood.
300 Mexicans murdered because Obama wanted to undermine our right to bear arms. Is there a single dem on this board outraged by this travesty? No? How contemptible.
Re: Molly:
4. So to speculate along these lines, the withheld documents might show: (a) Holder (or other high DOJ appointee) explicitly approved the change that would not track the gun purchases. (b) Holder and DOJ appointees discuss the strategy of creating a gun scandal to increase support for gun control. (c) some communication between Holder/DOJ, and Obama/WhiteHouse discussing this strategy.
That's outside the scope of what Holder is facing contempt charges for withholding -- they're only looking for documents after February 2011, I think, and he's only got the President to claim "executive privilege" over those documents. So it's not the original design and implementation of the Fast and Furious operation that would be covered. It's the cover-up.
It will be interesting to hear what Bill Clinton has to say about this. Probably he will undermine Obama at just the right time to do the most damage.
There is no way Holder is still AG by the time the dem convention rolls around. Don't worry, Holder, a prez pardon is on the way.
Holder retracts his claim that Bush team knew about Fast and Furious gunwalking.
Holder retracts his claim that Bush team knew about Fast and Furious gunwalking.
Sheila Jackson Lee has not returned any of my calls on this matter.
Balfegor: You are correct. Thanks.
So (again following Althouse's inference that there must be something bad in what they are refusing to release), would that
something bad be evidence that Holder lied to Congress? If that evidence were found, how would a prosecution for that play out? The US attorney would have to bring a charge against the AG?
1. Bush administration had a program that allowed guns to be purchased and tracked, with the idea of arresting the purchasers
With the help and consent of the Mexican government. After a dozen guns were walked 2 went missing and the program was stopped.
2. What really changed with fast and furious is that there was no longer an attempt to track the guns. (This was the testimony of ATF agents to Issa's committee some time in the last year -- they were amazed and angry about instructions that could not track the guns.)
The program was restarted by the Holder DOJ, without telling the mexican government. Dealers who contacted the ATF were ordered to sell guns to suspected gun runners. No effort was made to track these guns.
3. Why make this change? (This is what the missing documents could tell us.) The only reason that has been suggested is by Obama/Holder opponents: the administration wanted to create a scandal -- guns purchased in the US are used by narco-terrorists in Mexico. This scandal would then serve as a factual basis for pushing for more stringent gun control legislation.
Occam's razor and Sherlock Holmes assure us of motives. As stated previously, the subpoenaed documents post date the implimentation of F and F.
4. So to speculate along these lines, the withheld documents might show: (a) Holder (or other high DOJ appointee) explicitly approved the change that would not track the gun purchases. (b) Holder and DOJ appointees discuss the strategy of creating a gun scandal to increase support for gun control. (c) some communication between Holder/DOJ, and Obama/WhiteHouse discussing this strategy.
Again the subpoenaed documents post date the founding. It has to do with the cover up.
I suspect there are NO documents telling Holder to subborn the Constitution. These people are criminal, and crazy they ain't stupid. These documents are DOJ guys trying to cover their ass after the fact.
DoJ email: "Mr. Holder, the gun walking you suggested didn't work"
Holder email: "I didn't suggest that! That was just Barry daydreaming. You guys took it and ran with it"
DoJ email: "The fuck you say! You came into my office and told me to loose a bunch of guns to the beaners under order of Soros!"
Holder email: "I have no idea who this Soros person is, and why you think I would take orders from him!"
DoJ email: "Maybe it's because you're a smarmy little toady who can't take a crap without WH approval."
Like that, only worse :-)
During a hearing last week, Attorney General Eric Holder claimed that his predecessor, then-Attorney General Michael Mukasey, had been briefed about gunwalking in Operation Wide Receiver. Now, the Department is retracting that statement and claiming Holder "inadvertently" made that claim to the Committee."
Inadvertently.
Michael Haz: Eric Holder, as not for whom the bus warms up; it warms up for thee.
Well said.
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