November 18, 2011

"Walker recall effort gets 50,000 signatures in first 48 hours, organizers say."

And since they only need to average 9,000 signatures a day to get to the 540,000 needed by the deadline, they're doing just great, right?

Obviously, not. The eager enthusiasts would have signed on early, and there was tremendous publicity leading up to the kickoff of the signature campaign, with midnight parties and intense press coverage. So 50,000 in the first 2 days looks like weak support to me. And I'm assuming the organizers are telling the truth about the number of signatures collected, and I'm ignoring the potential for invalid signatures and the increasing difficulty of collecting signatures on the darkest, coldest days of the year and when people are preoccupied with holiday travel and celebration.

190 comments:

AJ Lynch said...

This is wrong-headed and not democracy. I would not sign a petition to recall Prez Obama & Slow Joe. IMO Prez Obama has failed bigtime but he was duly elected.

Scott M said...

I saw the list and I don't think there were any false signatures despite the Garage Mahal, the G. Mahal, and the Garage M. I saw duplicated a few times each.

Jay said...

Guess who said this?

New rule: No do-overs. Once you elect an official, unless he runs off with public funds or gets caught with kiddie porn, you’re stuck with him.

He’s the governor, not some dude you married in Las Vegas. […]

Maybe he’s a lousy governor, but he was the one elected by voters who bothered to show up at the polls. Their efforts shouldn’t be undone by disgruntled shoppers signing a petition on their way out of Target.

Anyone who thinks this recall is some great affirmation of democracy should review early American history. This is precisely the kind of direct involvement by the howling masses that the framers wanted to avoid.



It would be Ann's least favorite "comedian" Bill Maher.

I'm sure he feels the exact same way about Walker's recall.

Chuck66 said...

I think they will get the signatures, even if some look fishy and have goofy addresses. There are tremendous amounts of out-of-state money and people in Wisconsin doing this.

Having said that....once the non-stop commercials bashing Governor Walker start, the backlash to ruining everyones winter and spring will through any election to Walkers favor.

I feel for the people of the Twin Cities who will be subjects to hate filled TV and radio commercials every 10 minutes.

Scott M said...

I'm sure he feels the exact same way about Walker's recall.

If he publicly stated that he was against the Walker recall, what tiny bit of respect I have for him would increase marginally. Consistency counts.

Chuck66 said...

So, 540,000 is a lot of signatures. How do they get verified? Are they entered into electronic databases to look for dupes? How about legit addresses or if the person is registered to vote? Do you really think these fanatics will play by the rules?

Chuck66 said...

I was against the California recall. Davis may have lied and covered up the economic mess (like Doyle did), but that is why we have seperation of powers/checks and balances. The state legislature can take action. A recall over incompetence is wrong.

Chip S. said...

You think it's easy to get 100 people in pajamas to take the time for each of them to sign 500 different names on a petition? There were other, pressing needs to be attended to.

Ten more pj parties and they're good to go.

MnMark said...

Why can't the people on the Left see that this sort of "get a second bite at the apple" recall effort is an abuse of the process?

I would assume that the purpose of providing methods of removing an elected official from office before his term expires is to handle the situation where an official commits crimes or engages in corruption or some other illegal or immoral behavior. The purpose cannot have been to simply punish them for voting for a policy that you don't like. That is what the next election is for.

Don't the people on the Left see where this leads, when one side decides to abuse the process for their own gain? It means that their opponents must now lower themselves to the same level of debasement of the system in order not to be penalized unfairly for following the spirit of the law. The result in this case would be repeated recall elections as soon and as often as possible to try to get a chance to cut short the other side's legitimate turn in office.

It's wrong. It's one aspect of what is so wrong about the Left in this country. They are so full of their self-importance, of their holy mission, that they don't think the norms of civil or political society apply to them. THEY get to destroy private property during their marches, breaking windows, etc. THEY get to "occupy" private or public lands in violation of the law. (Does no one notice that the word "occupy" is a military term, a term of aggression?) THEY will break the tradition of routinely approving a President's Supreme Court nominees even if they disagree with that nominee's world view, as long as they meet basic standards of competence (Bork, and every conservative nominee since). THEY will scream down, intimidate, "pie", and otherwise harrass any conservative speaker who dares to try to make a speech they disagree with.

And now, THEY will force recall elections as soon as possible for every Republican who dares to pass a policy they disagree with, even if the Republicans won the election and have every right by all norms of political civility to be given their full terms in office to enact the legislation the people elected them to enact.

This ultimately leads to violence. You can't have a peaceful society of people with varying viewpoints if you won't observe the basic rules of civility and respect the spirit of the laws and norms of society.

Michael said...

The left is not comfortable with math and its tendency to inflate numbers to its advantage suggests that anything with five figures is big for a leftie. But if it took them two days to get less than ten percent of the required signatures, especially after all the hoopla, then I would guess that this effort will not succeed.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

I agree with your analysis, Althouse. The rate of sign ups will decrease, my guess, logarithmically. If they can only get the necessary daily average on the first two days after a long period of pent-up anti-Walker rage, the initiative looks pretty much doomed. They might be able to change the trend by spending a shitload of money. Do they have it?

AllenS said...

New Richmond News asked 6 people in the Inquiring Reporter section if they'd sign a recall petition and 4 said no, 2 said yes.

Mark said...

"There are tremendous amounts of out-of-state money and people in Wisconsin doing this."

Evidence?

Also, complaining about out-of-state money when Walker has had a half dozen out-of-state fundraisers in the last couple of months is hypocritical.

If money should come only from Wisconsin, you would expect people to walk that line themselves.

I'm not happy with out of state money, but I'm less happy about hypocrisy. Both sides are funded by out of state.

As far as all the out-of-state people, once again the spring's recall had both sides doing that crap.

Don't get all sanctimonious when you live in a glass house.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Sheesh, it looks like my math is bad. They got substantially more than the daily average. In future, I will attempt to read all the words.

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ndspinelli said...

They're out in force..I see them everywhere. It's wishful thinking that they won't hit their #. I hope they don't but I got a C note that says they do. You always bet w/ your head, not your heart. That's why women are generally shitty gamblers.

Michael said...

TyroneS: Generally, the most money is raised in the beginning, especially after a big media blitz. It is difficult to keep the indicated pace over weekends and holidays and with a shrinking number of people who are interested in signing. I am sure that they were aiming for three times what they actually received. Time will tell, but it would be very unwise to gross up the daily average to date.

Tank said...

Do signers of the Petitions have to produce picture ID?

Thorley Winston said...

I think they will get the signatures, even if some look fishy and have goofy addresses.

I hope that the names and addresses are made publicly available. Not to harass the people who signed the petition Prop-8 style but so the cases of fake names, duplicate names, or people claiming a non-residential area or fake address can be made publicly available before people decide whether and how to vote.

I feel for the people of the Twin Cities who will be subjects to hate filled TV and radio commercials every 10 minutes.

Well considering who we have as our governor and senators – we need something to feel better about ourselves ;)

PaulV said...

If 10% of the signatures get thrown out they will need 600,000 on petitions

Chuck66 said...

"They might be able to change the trend by spending a shitload of money. Do they have it?"

Yes they do. Out of state money will/is pouring into this. Big Union needs a victory.

garage mahal said...

But if it took them two days to get less than ten percent of the required signatures, especially after all the hoopla, then I would guess that this effort will not succeed.

10% of signatures needed in 3% of the time. I'll take those numbers.

Petunia said...

Here in Madison yesterday, I saw three people holding signs for petition-signing on East Washington Ave, a major street, about 7:15 a.m. yesterday when inbound traffic was pretty heavy. No one was pulling over to sign.

The people in my neighborhood on the first day, blocking a street, were nowhere to be seen yesterday.

Jaske said...

ab antiquo

We build nothing, we farm away our industry, 0.5 percent fight for us. Why don't we speak Latin?

Phil said...

Who is going to run against Walker if the petition drive succeeds?

MaggotAtBroad&Wall said...

I still say the endless protests and now the endless elections are terrible for Wisconsin.

I just can not imagine why any business would consider expanding or relocating to a state with a political environment as unstable and as hostile to enterprise as Wisconsin is. To an outsider like me, it looks like Wisconsin is an ungovernable mess. It's like the California of the midwest.

Businesses are very rationally fleeing California. I'd consider it a very rational response for a company currently located in Wisconsin with the ability to flee the state to do so and relocate in a state that is more politically stable and less hostile to business. And take all the jobs and the tax base with them.

This guy has been tracking the businesses leaving California for a couple of years now. Is this what is in store for Wisconsin?

http://thebusinessrelocationcoach.blogspot.com/2011/06/calif-business-departures-increasing.html

Paul said...

"Why can't the people on the Left see that this sort of "get a second bite at the apple" recall effort is an abuse of the process?"

Oh they see it alright. Anytime the recall effort is aimed at a democrat.

Chip S. said...

garage, You've gotta let go of that linear way of thinking. Althouse has something like this in mind.

MadisonMan said...

I'm not happy with out of state money, but I'm less happy about hypocrisy. Both sides are funded by out of state.

Eh, I'm okay with fools from out of state sending money to Wisconsin to be spent here.

Paul said...

Chip S., you must remember you are dealing with a very simple and one dimensional mind, with a huge dose of magical thinking thrown in for leavening.

There is no making bones for a jellyfish.

Pogo said...

Sign the forms, with a false name, repeatedly, on several petitions.

garage mahal said...

garage, You've gotta let go of that linear way of thinking. Althouse has something like this in mind.

I just said I liked the numbers so far. S-O-R-R-Y.

Pogo said...

I suggest the name 'Garage Mahal'.

Pogo said...

Or Bill Ayers.

edutcher said...

When you start seeing Meadhouse, Laurence & Ann, or Althouse, Laurence, or Mead, Anne, on the list of voters, time to call in O'Keefe and Giles.

purplepenquin said...

Before he passed away Ben Masel expressed concerns about getting that many signatures during these months. Looking at the energy & enthusiasm now, I'm pretty sure that was one of the few things he got wrong. The recall election is gonna happen, but all bets are off in regards to if Walker wins or loses it.

purplepenquin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
purplepenquin said...

Sign the forms, with a false name, repeatedly, on several petitions.

Encouraging people to lie, cheat, and commit fraud?

Sounds like someone is scared of what is gonna happen....

Alex said...

I think Ann is barking up the wrong tree here. It's obvious to me that the recall petition will easily get the 540K signatures in 50% of the time. Will she enjoy being pwned by garage when that happens?

alan markus said...

I'll be jumping over to Ebola Monkey Man for ideas for names to use. He's got a good collection of names he used to punk Nigerian 419 scamemrs.

Some examples:

Iama Dildo

Ivanastiff Kochupmianus

Will U. Phystme

Iama Pina Seater

Anita Hanchob

Iama Wayne Kerr

Put on some priestly garb to use these:

Father Penna Trateme

Father Will U. Tuchme

purplepenquin said...

I just can not imagine why any business would consider expanding or relocating to a state with a political environment as unstable and as hostile to enterprise as Wisconsin is.

Yup. Walker is far too polarizing, and for the good of our state he must go.

Keep in mind, we didn't see this kind of outrage all across the country when Tommy was Governor. This isn't just a "GOP = BAD" protest. Walker's vision for our state is far too extreme for at least half of the people, and we need a more reasonable Governor(be it Republican, Democratic, or other party) in his place.

garage mahal said...

If you plan on ripping up recall petitions, best not to drive up in your vehicle where people can get your plates. Doh. I bet he wished he hadn't done that.

Chip S. said...

NPR is reporting on this right now, and getting it wrong. They're saying "50,000 people" have signed petitions, instead of "50,000 signatures have been obtained."

This is a big distinction, given that

There is no limit to the amount of times you can sign a recall petition. Duplicate signatures will be removed during the vetting process by either GAB, the signature collectors or representatives of the incumbent.

Pogo said...

"Encouraging people to lie, cheat, and commit fraud?
Sounds like someone is scared of what is gonna happen....
"

Nope, just immanentizing the eschaton.

Pogo said...

Or maybe I'm monkey-wrenching.

Depends how much scrutiny is given the names.

Alex said...

Keep in mind, we didn't see this kind of outrage all across the country when Tommy was Governor. This isn't just a "GOP = BAD" protest. Walker's vision for our state is far too extreme for at least half of the people, and we need a more reasonable Governor(be it Republican, Democratic, or other party) in his place.

Tommy Thompson presided over a boom economy. Walker inherited a depression economy and had to make cuts. Of course that's unpopular.

Alex said...

So why did Walker get elected if not to bust the unions? What the fuck did the people expect to cut costs? Typical American mentality - they want miracles cures without any pain.

garage mahal said...

I believe the 50k figure is only petitions that have been officially turned in. Over 10k petitions have been downloaded, so that figure is surely higher than 50k.

Pogo said...

And why not "lie, cheat, and commit fraud"?

Elections apparently no longer determine anything, so there is no democracy or republic anymore, not in Wisconsin.

As a result, it's a mobacracy. So lie, cheat, and commit fraud.
Who cares?
Winning is all that matters, or at least so said Sen. Feingold.

Pogo said...

What's the upside of accepting election results anymore?

Nothing.

So recall the recall. Once Walker is replaced, recall him or her.

Curious George said...

"Chip S. said...
There is no limit to the amount of times you can sign a recall petition. Duplicate signatures will be removed during the vetting process by either GAB, the signature collectors or representatives of the incumbent."

And I think there will be a lot of this.

Lazy ass hippie,state worker, or teacher volunteers to collect signatures

Lazy ass hippie,state worker, or teacher doesn't really want to spend all that time to get signatures, because they are a lazy ass hippie, state worker, or teacher.

So when they come across someone that already signed a petition they will convince them to sign theirs also so they don't have to turn in a small list...and be shown as a lazy ass hippie, state worker, or teacher.

To this end the lazy ass hippie, state worker, or teacher can use a bunch of reasons to have someone sign again...what happens if the petition you signed doesn't get turned in...what if it get's lost. What if the dog eats it.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

purplepenquin said...

Walker inherited a depression economy and had to make cuts. Of course that's unpopular.

Every other state, many of which allow for recalls, are experiencing the same "depression economy" but only Walker is facing the very-real prospect of such an election.

So why did Walker get elected if not to bust the unions?

The reason he got elected is because he didn't run on the issue of busting the unions. If he had stated that one of his first acts in office would be to ban workers from negotiating with the city/county/state then he most likely never would have been elected. I suspect he knew this to be true, which is why he waited to drop "the bomb" (his words, not mine) until after he won the election.

David said...

My response to the recall? I kicked in my fifty buck contribution to Walker's reelection campaign. Go Walker!!!

Allie said...

I think Ann is barking up the wrong tree here. It's obvious to me that the recall petition will easily get the 540K signatures in 50% of the time. Will she enjoy being pwned by garage when that happens?

11/18/11 1:12 PM
:)

Pogo said...

Who cares why he got elected?

He wasn't "your side", so it was illegitimate, or so said Sen. Feingold.

"It ain't over until your side wins", right?

Be careful of what you ask for, purple. You really think it's over when your candidate "wins" the recall?
Ha ha ha.

You've shown that endless elections are now the norm for Wisconsin, so fuck the election results.

Wisconsin will grind to a halt.
Good for Minnesota anyways.

Carol_Herman said...

Uh huh. And, GM car sales are skyrocketing, too.

Let alone no one's actually looked at these 50,000 "signatures."

Were they all done using only ten pens?

I don't think Walker has to worry.

I think there are a lot of "SUSAN's" in Wisconsin. That if you called them on the phone ... and asked them if they "heard of this recall attempt?" ... before hanging up would say: "SUCH A SHAME."

GulfofMexico said...

The number for the first two days isn't predictive...lots of reasons the haters just won't get to it immediately. They'll hit the number.

purplepenquin said...

You've shown that endless elections are now the norm for Wisconsin

It is kinda cute how you seem to think that these recall elections can just happen on a lark. You really are unable to fathom the amount of energy it takes for the people to conduct something like this...

Pogo said...

It is also kinda cute how you seem to think that the other side will not be of a mind to fuck up your election, and the replacement governor's short term.

Alex said...

I'm sure purplepenguin welcomes recalling the recaller IF we get get the signatures right? Endless elections, grind government to a halt. Hmm, sounds like a GREAT idea to me!

Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Don't Tread 2012 said...

Just as elections have consequences, the same will be true with recall elections.

It appears at this point to be a rather knee-jerk response to unwanted election results.

Is this a good reason for a recall, or would it be more fitting under truly dire circumstances, involving actionable offenses against the people? The optics suggest Gov. Walker's job description does include the fiscal matters of his state.

I'm not sure the left wants to go down this road, it cuts both ways.

Jess said...

We build nothing, we farm away our industry, 0.5 percent fight for us. Why don't we speak Latin?

Dude. Latin is hard!

purplepenquin said...

It is also kinda cute how you seem to think that the other side will not be of a mind to fuck up your election

Oh, I've seen your (and other people's) comments about how ya'll intend to lie, cheat and commit fraud in order to fuck this election up. I've read about the bricks being thrown through the windows of businesses that support the recall, and I've heard about how "your side" is tearing up petitions on the streets.

So yeah, I am very aware that ya'll are willing to "fuck up" things in order to keep this guy in office....but I honestly beleive that despite your dirty tricks and illegal acts that the recall election will be taking place.

Chuck66 said...

Its easy to governor during slacker boom times. Who ruled the 90s?

-Tommy Thompson
-Bill Clinton
-Jesse Ventura

But the party is over now. So now we need leaders who can make hard unpopular decisions.

Chuck66 said...

Hey penguin, Govorner Walker is going to win, but lets say he doesn't. On day 1 of the leftwing Democrat Governors term, there will be those on the right who are going to do everything to undermine him. We will not accept that do-over election as legitmete. Good luck getting anything accomplished.

purplepenquin said...

I'm sure purplepenguin welcomes recalling the recaller IF we get get the signatures right?

Of course I'm ok with that.

If thousands of people are so upset (for any reason) with an elected official that they want him/her out of office ASAP...and are willing to put the time&energy into the effort...then a recall election should be held.

Whatever leads you to think I would beleive otherwise?

Alex said...

Chuck66 - yeah right. As if there will be 100K right wingers ready to march in Madison in protest of the recall governor. Let's face it - you live in a blue blue state and Walker overreached his "mandate".

Allie said...

http://uppitywis.org/blogarticle/walker-recall-talking-points-contradicted-himself-he-supported-1

Scott Walker has been running around the state, lecturring everyone that will listen that the very notion of a recall election is preposterous.  Walker either A) attempts to confuse people by conflating the recall and impeachment or B) claims another election is unnecessary because the voters just weighed in last year.

However, not only is Walker wrong, but his argument is directly contradicted by Walker himself:  In 1997, he supported the "First Breath Alliance," which was a group that tried to recall Herb Kohl and Russ Feingold.  Why?  According to their website at the time:

We are First Breath Alliance, a Wisconsin state-wide, non-profit alliance of independent citizens dedicated to recalling our two pro-abortion U.S. senators, Russ Feingold and Herb Kohl. Feingold and Kohl have consistently voted against the right to life of the unborn. A recall would force a special election which could unseat one or both senators.
The effort fell short by approximately 30,000 signatures, but Walker was rewarded for his help to the organization by being one of only three statehouse campaigns to receive a share-- $697.42-- of the group's remaining funds."
---------------------------------------
No hypocrisy there, huh?

 
 

Alex said...

These days there is a certain clenching of the ass cheeks as I ponder the #OWS, recall elections against GOP governors, Kasich & Scott's tanking poll #s, Gingrich as the GOP front-runner and myriad other things. You know that feeling when the enemy is on the ascendency and your side is waning? I feel like all the young energy is with the left and our side is just a bunch of old folks ready to pass on...

Alex said...

It's clenching of the ass cheeks, the jaw. Just a general state of tension these days as I contemplate the demographic shift --> left. There is no fighting it. They are coming for me. They will kill me in my bed, those 99%ers.

Sofa King said...

And why not "lie, cheat, and commit fraud"?



But you might get a reprimand on your permanent record!

I am rapidly losing confidence in the very efficacy of law.

MadisonMan said...

Ridiculous Headline of the day:

Ex-Capitol worker pleads guilty to popping protester's balloon

It boggles the mind that someone would be so charged. There's really a law against popping balloons?

Sofa King said...

It boggles the mind that someone would be so charged. There's really a law against popping balloons?

There is, if the balloon-holder is in the privileged class. And I'm not talking about money.

garage mahal said...

Hearing Republicans whine about recalls is sweet sweet music to the ears. Especially since they have tried recalls before, and threatened others they would, like Doyle and Feingold.

And let's hear it from Walker himself:

You… know the folks that were angry about this started a recall and they were told they needed to collect 73,000 signatures in sixty days,” said Walker. “Well, not hundreds, not thousands, but tens of thousands of ordinary people did an extraordinary thing. They stood up and took their government back. In less than thirty days they collected more than 150,000 signatures. It was at that moment I realized the real emotion on display in my county wasn’t just about anger. You see, if it had been about anger, it would have been about people checking out and moving out or giving up. But instead what happened was really amazing. You saw people standing up shoulder to shoulder, neighbor to neighbor and saying we want our government back. And in doing so the real emotion on display was about hope. Today I see a lot of the same emotions on display here in Wisconsin and all across our great country.”

Sing it Walker!

Pogo said...

Garage and purple think that once they have their guy in, things'll calm down and go back to 2005 or sumpin.

Nah, you've changed the rules, and this won't stop.

Phil said...

Alan Markus -

Father Mebalza Ritchie

garage mahal said...

Pogo
Republicans tried recalling Jim Holperin in 1990. They've threatened to recall Doyle, Feingold, and Kohl. They filed recalls FIRST in the last two recalls. Sorry, it sounds very much like sour grapes from your side because there is a very real possibility Walker will get the boot.

Alex said...

garage - I don't get what you feel so triumphant about. WI is a blue blue state, so is it a huge surprise you can recall a GOP governor who went off the rails? This is expected, you're acting like WI was Texas or something.

purplepenquin said...

you've changed the rules

The rules/laws for a recall election in Wisconsin have been on the books for a looong time, and don't let Limbaugh tell you otherwise.

Pogo said...

Maybe so, although your track record in predictions ain't been so hot.

But the democrats have shown what is required, and that an election result is meaningless.

If the recall succeeds and then there is a new Governor, expect the Democrat tactics to become more widespread.

Pogo said...

The rules that changed involved accepting the legitimacy of an election result.

It started with Gore.

Get used to perpetual unrest.

Chuck66 said...

Pogo, Algore is the worst American ever. By not accepting his defeat in 2000 and using the courts to try to overturn an election, he has set a precedence that will be with us for decades.

The new normal is to never accept defeat, but instead get lawyers and try to overturn elections.

garage mahal said...

Deceptions have consequences.

purplepenquin said...

The rules that changed involved accepting the legitimacy of an election result.

I don't think anyone is saying that Walker was illegally/illegitimately elected last time, but rather people are saying that his actions since taking office are worthy of having him face another election sooner rather than later.

To claim that an elected official should be unaccountable to the public until the term is completed seems to go against what America is supposed to stand for.

Even Walker himself has sung the praises of recall elections. Why is this even a point of dispute?

Scott M said...

Encampments don't seem to though. Funny, that.

Chip S. said...

@Chuck66:

+100

Chip S. said...

his actions since taking office are worthy of having him face another election sooner rather than later.

And just why is it so urgent to unseat Walker? The only coherent reason is that public employees fear that his policies won't be easily undone by the time the next regular election rolls around. Your campaign is based on fear and intimidation, and once taxpayers see that their level of public services will not go down, and indeed will probably go up, they'll laugh at the protestations of the public employees.

Your side's attitude is an example of selfishness worthy of a Randian--or worse, since it seeks to use state power for its own benefit.

Shame!

Sofa King said...

I don't think anyone is saying that Walker was illegally/illegitimately elected last time, but rather people are saying that his actions since taking office are worthy of having him face another election sooner rather than later.



Eh, but presumably *every* losing minority believes that. Almost nobody says, "well, I lost the election, I guess I was wrong!?" Then the question is, if the creators of the law intended that elections should be held *any time* the minority felt that the majority's policies were wrong, why are there terms of office at all? Presumably there must be some reason that 4-year terms are established, but your logic doesn't account for it.

X said...

And just why is it so urgent to unseat Walker?

because 4 years is 20% of a public sector union worker's career.

Triangle Man said...

Is it true that Governor Walker won his first position in a recall election? I have heard that there is video of him extolling the virtues of the recall process in a democracy as part of this campaign. I would appreciate a link if someone has it because the obvious search terms are swamped by more recent content.

Sofa King said...

Is it true that Governor Walker won his first position in a recall election?

Yup, that is true. To be fair, though, the circumstances were considerably different: the guy being recalled, Tom Ament, was guilty of outright malfeasance. It wasn't just a case of not liking his politics.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Now that the bar has been lowered so that policy differences are a valid reason for recall, I look forward to the recall of every current and future Democrat. That includes Walker's replacement should he lose.

purplepenquin said...

Then the question is, if the creators of the law intended that elections should be held *any time* the minority felt that the majority's policies were wrong, why are there terms of office at all?

They didn't say an election could be held "any time". Rather, recall elections are used for those rare/special times when a certain threshold of the voting public (25%, I think? Don't wanna Google it right now) are so outraged by the politician's actions that they beleive an election should be held sooner rather than later.


No joke - annual elections for every office would be ok with me. Holding our elected leader more accountable to the public then they currently are would do our country a lot of good.

Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
garage mahal said...

Triangle Man
The original. And a fun remix

Curious George said...

"Sofa King said...
Is it true that Governor Walker won his first position in a recall election?

Yup, that is true. To be fair, though, the circumstances were considerably different: the guy being recalled, Tom Ament, was guilty of outright malfeasance. It wasn't just a case of not liking his politics."

That's incorrect. Tom Ament faced recall, but retired before the election. Walker did not win a recall election, but a special election for Ament's open seat. Ament was involved in a pension fund scandal.

Allie said...

What about Walker's support of the First Breath Alliance in 1997, when they were trying to recall Kohl and Feingold because of their pro choice stance? Walker was all for that and received campaign money from them. So where was the malfeasance in that instance?

Walker is all for recalling elected officials ,as long as it's not himself or Republicans, that are the targets of the recall.

11/18/11 3:15 PM

Chip S. said...

TriangleMan--The most recent previous recall elections in Wisconsin were in 2003, when incumbent Gary George was defeated in a Democratic Party primary, in 1996, when Republican George Petak was successfully recalled (switching the Senate from Rep. to Dem. btw), and in 1990, when Jim Holperin survived his first recall challenge, initiated in response to his support of the Republican governor's position on spearfishing.

Your source is either a liar or a fantasist. That is, a typical lefty.

Chip S. said...

Now that I've read the comments posted while I was googling, I see that I should add "unable to make clear distinctions" (in this case, between special elections to fill vacancies and recall elections) to the list of standard lefty failings.

purplepenquin said...

To be fair, though, the circumstances were considerably different: the guy being recalled, Tom Ament, was guilty of outright malfeasance. It wasn't just a case of not liking his politics.

This isn't just about not liking Walker's politics either. If it was, then every Republican in every state that allows for recalls would be facing the same thing. It goes waaaay beyond that.

A lot of people who voted for him, even groups that endorsed him, are now working to remove him from office. This isn't just "politics as usual" but rather the public is responding to the Governor's extreme agenda and policies.

I do support some of what Walker has accomplished in office so far, but by making it illegal to have workplace conditions & safety issues as part of a contract with the city/county/state he has put my life&health at risk. For that reason, he needs to go sooner rather than later.

Chip S. said...

@Allie--WTF are you talking about? The U.S. Constitution does not provide for the recall of U.S. Senators.

Allie said...

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-06-04/news/9706040111_1_russ-feingold-abortion-kohl

Abortion Foes Fail To Force Recall Vote On 2 Senators
OTHER NEWS TO NOTE - MIDWEST
June 04, 1997
MADISON, WIS. — Abortion opponents failed to collect enough signatures by Tuesday's deadline to force recall elections for both of Wisconsin's U.S. senators for voting against a ban on certai late-term abortions. The First Breath Alliance needed 391,000 signatures to force a recall for Democratic Sens. Herb Kohl and Russ Feingold. But after a last-minute count the group said it fell about 50,000 names short. The alliance targeted Kohl and Feingold for opposing a ban on a procedure opponents call ''partial-birth abortion.''

Chip S. said...

I do support some of what Walker has accomplished in office so far, but by making it illegal to have workplace conditions & safety issues as part of a contract with the city/county/state he has put my life&health at risk.

This doesn't make any sense. You're claiming that "the people" are up in arms over Walker b/c they fear that the workplace safety conditions for public employees will be made worse if state/local govts are merely allowed to do so?

Wouldn't those same voters be even more outraged at any gov officials who actually proposed endangering the lives of public employees? And wouldn't those elected officials fear such outrage, and therefore not endanger the lives of public employees?

Really. That's it? That's why you're happy to put the state through this bullshit?

Incredible.

Allie said...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=19970506&id=Z3MaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uS4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6995,1695497

Link to May 6, 1997 Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article.

garage mahal said...

Your source is either a liar or a fantasist. That is, a typical lefty.

Walker himself called his special election a "recall". He said so in the ad I linked.

Walker is dropping 500k on a spot that's running now. Interestingly, it doesn't mention him by name. 800k so far on two really strange ads.

Chip S. said...

In that case, Allie, your entire state is a lunatic asylum.

The United States Constitution does not provide for nor authorize the recall of United States
officials such as United States Senators, Representatives to Congress, or the President or Vice President of the United States, and thus no United States Senator or Member of the House of
Representatives has ever been recalled in the history of the United States.


source

Allie said...

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-69523995.html


A group that is trying to recall Wisconsin's U.S. senators plans to spend $100,000 to $150,000 on the effort, an official said.

First Breath Alliance, based in Mequon, has targeted Sens. Herb Kohl and Russ Feingold, both Democrats, because they voted against a bill that would have banned a form of late-term abortion.

The group has 60 days to gather 390,959 signatures on petitions statewide. The number of signatures is 25 percent of the turnout in the 1994 governor's race.

The signature drive began April 4 when the petition was filed with the state Elections …

Sofa King said...

I do support some of what Walker has accomplished in office so far, but by making it illegal to have workplace conditions & safety issues as part of a contract with the city/county/state he has put my life&health at risk.



CROCK

OF

SHIT.

Eliminating collective bargaining does not erase civil service protection regulations, or worksplace safety regulations in general.

Do you understand what you are saying? You are, in effect, arguing that you are so super-special precious that you require extra-deluxe workplace safety that nobody else is entitled to. But you, precious flower, need it so urgently that you must bypass regularly scheduled elections!

I find it curious that while you argue that it ought to be perfectly fine to hold an unscheduled election on purely political grounds, you are unwilling to admit that is exactly what you are doing.

purplepenquin said...

Only four minutes after Chip expresses disdain at other peoples' lack of knowledge, he shows his own ignorance.


Karma is kinda quick like that....

Allie said...

Only four minutes after Chip expresses disdain at other peoples' lack of knowledge, he shows his own ignorance.


Karma is kinda quick like that....

11/18/11 3:38 PM

Hehe, gotta love Google.

garage mahal said...

Wouldn't those same voters be even more outraged at any gov officials who actually proposed endangering the lives of public employees?

He told the fake Koch that they had thought about planting troublemakers in the rallies. Does that count? That alone is reason enough for this doucherocket to get recalled.

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...

I do support some of what Walker has accomplished in office so far, but by making it illegal to have workplace conditions & safety issues as part of a contract with the city/county/state he has put my life&health at risk. For that reason, he needs to go sooner rather than later."

What a load of shit. Worker's effected b the BRB have the strongest civil service protections in the nation. Please give me an example of how your health and life is at risk so I can mock you.

And if it is actually at risk, why don't you quit.

Chip S. said...

garage--You don't listen any better than you read.

In the ad you linked, Walker is summarizing the events that led to his entry into the special election. The attempted recall of an apparently corrupt official happened before he entered the special election. Pardon me for being too lazy to dig up the correct info for you, but I presume that the incumbent resigned in the face of the recall effort. And then Scott Walker ran in the ensuing special election. Nowhere in that video does Walker describe what he's doing as running in a recall election.

Chip S. said...

Oh right, penquin. Excuse me for actually consulting an authoritative source. I stand by the U.S. Constitution rather than some partisan idiots on either side in your lunatic state.

Chip S. said...

Oh, and BTW Allie & penquin, did Kohl and Feingold explicitly state in their election campaigns that they would vote against any bill banning partial-birth abortions? Cuz if they didn't, then by your logic they deserved to be recalled.

garage mahal said...

Chip
Whatev. Here is how Walker described it.

"You… know the folks that were angry about this started a recall and they were told they needed to collect 73,000 signatures in sixty days,” said Walker.

Allie said...

Oh right, penquin. Excuse me for actually consulting an authoritative source. I stand by the U.S. Constitution rather than some partisan idiots on either side in your lunatic state.

11/18/11 3:51 PM

So Chip, you're agreeing that Walker is a Republican partisan idiot?He was all for the First Alliance Recall attempt.

purplepenquin said...

Do you understand what you are saying? You are, in effect, arguing that you are so super-special precious that you require extra-deluxe workplace safety that nobody else is entitled to.

You have no idea at all what I do for a living, but you already have all the answers about it...eh?

Tho I know you were being sarcastic, there is some truth is what you were saying. What my co-workers and I do on the job is kinda special (when compared to the typical worker), hence our need to have specific safety issues and workplace conditions written into our contracts.

Eliminating collective bargaining does not erase civil service protection regulations, or worksplace safety regulations in general.

I had no civil service protection what-so-ever before Walker came into office, so that has nothing to do with me.

But like I just said, general safety regulations don't always apply to us. One such example: Wisconsin law don't say anything about meals/breaks for workers. While it may not be overly dangerous for an office worker to be required to work the whole eight hour day with no meals/breaks, that isn't safe for those of us in a more physically demanding field. Other issues, that involve climbing and rigging, also come into play. Add in the fact that we are also working with high voltage equipment, and things can get hairy really fast.

The main reason our union first organized back-in-the-day was because of safety concerns. It is too easy to get hurt...we want to make sure that everyone goes home at the end of the day, and with all the toes/fingers they arrived with.

Walker has made it more likely that someone I know...or even myself...will get hurt and/or killed on the job.

Petunia said...

Yeah, those pesky worker protection laws that have been in place in Wisconsin since long before collective bargainin by public employees was allowed, provide ABSOLUTELY NO PROTECTION for workers' safety and well-being. Nope, none whatsoever.

Sofa King said...

Walker has made it more likely that someone I know...or even myself...will get hurt and/or killed on the job.

I have to call bullshit on this. Name the governmental agency that does not provide the government's own recommended break and lunch schedule.

Sofa King said...

I had no civil service protection what-so-ever before Walker came into office, so that has nothing to do with me.


What is this I don't even

What government employers are not bound by the government's own rules for government employees?

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...

Karma is kinda quick like that...."

What's not quick is how the BRB put your "life&health at risk."

I'm guessing we will never hear your explanation for that.

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...

You have no idea at all what I do for a living, but you already have all the answers about it...eh?

Tho I know you were being sarcastic, there is some truth is what you were saying. What my co-workers and I do on the job is kinda special (when compared to the typical worker), hence our need to have specific safety issues and workplace conditions written into our contracts.

Eliminating collective bargaining does not erase civil service protection regulations, or worksplace safety regulations in general.

I had no civil service protection what-so-ever before Walker came into office, so that has nothing to do with me.

But like I just said, general safety regulations don't always apply to us. One such example: Wisconsin law don't say anything about meals/breaks for workers. While it may not be overly dangerous for an office worker to be required to work the whole eight hour day with no meals/breaks, that isn't safe for those of us in a more physically demanding field. Other issues, that involve climbing and rigging, also come into play. Add in the fact that we are also working with high voltage equipment, and things can get hairy really fast.

The main reason our union first organized back-in-the-day was because of safety concerns. It is too easy to get hurt...we want to make sure that everyone goes home at the end of the day, and with all the toes/fingers they arrived with.

Walker has made it more likely that someone I know...or even myself...will get hurt and/or killed on the job."

Yeah, still waiting for specific example. This is just a bunch a bullshit. Facts please.

Petunia said...

So the organizers are apparently claiming that 8,000 people in Richland County, which has about 18,000 residents and is very rural, signed petitions in the first two days.

Anyone believe that?

I hope the Walker campaign demands that every single signature on the petitions be verified as belonging to a real, eligible Wisconsin voter, and that all duplicate, triplicate, etc. signatures be thrown out.

Joanna said...

purplepenquin said...
Every other state, many of which allow for recalls, are experiencing the same "depression economy" but only Walker is facing the very-real prospect of such an election.


You forgot to mention that, thus far, Walker will be running unopposed.

Chip S. said...

Allie--I think that a "recall" effort against public officials who can't be recalled is a political campaign tactic (if I agree with them) or stunt (if I disagree with them). I don't think it's a true recall effort, though.

On the general point about what Walker said or did about recalls in the past, I don't feel constrained by that in any of my own views. I happen to think that this particular recall effort is unjustified by actual events. You, garage, penquin, and others disagree. Well, we're both free to say that regardless of what Walker or Holperin or anybody else has said in the past.

Garage, I'll concede that Walker probably would have been willing to run in a recall election if that had been necessary. It seems to me that the only real reason to have a recall election is in the case of dramatic new information such as a big corruption revelation, as in the case involving that Walker ad. I don't think that conditionality is hypocrisy in any way.

What I stand by fully is my belief that the motivation behind this particular recall effort is nothing more than the narrow self-interest of public employees. I question the penquin's claim that this has anything to do with the safety of public employees for two reasons: 1) the one I already gave, as to why it's illogical, and 2) the fact that the two truly dangerous public-sector occupations (police and firefighters) have not lost their CB rights. I don't see shorter lunch breaks as a serious threat to the health of any bureaucrats.

purplepenquin said...

I have to call bullshit on this.

Of course you do. Just liked you called "bullshit" about my profession needing different safety requirements than other professions.

Fact o' the matter is that not all safety issues are addressed via laws/OSHA...especially when you're talking about certain professions/trades. Hence the need for them to be addressed in the employer-employee contract. (People who say the OSHA will always protect ya so there is no need for unions aren't much different than the folks who say cops will always protect ya so there is no need for concealed carry.)

Since Walker has made it illegal for us to negotiate with the city/county/state on practically everything, those protections are now subject to the whims of the immediate supervisor.

Petunia said...

Of course, if people ARE signing multiple times, that simply means that the recall people have far less support than they think/claim, and Walker's victory margin in any recall election would be even bigger.

Chip S. said...

Petunia, as in any election, and probably much more so in a recall, turnout is key. Producing voters is one thing unions do well.

purplepenquin said...

I don't see shorter lunch breaks as a serious threat to the health of any bureaucrats

But the city/state/county doesn't hire just bureaucrats. Try to think outside the box...or in this case, outside the cubicle. ;)


When you're throwing 33pound steel bricks seven stories above your co-workers head, you better beleive that fatigue becomes a safety issue...

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...
I have to call bullshit on this.

Of course you do. Just liked you called "bullshit" about my profession needing different safety requirements than other professions.

Fact o' the matter is that not all safety issues are addressed via laws/OSHA...especially when you're talking about certain professions/trades. Hence the need for them to be addressed in the employer-employee contract. (People who say the OSHA will always protect ya so there is no need for unions aren't much different than the folks who say cops will always protect ya so there is no need for concealed carry.)

Since Walker has made it illegal for us to negotiate with the city/county/state on practically everything, those protections are now subject to the whims of the immediate supervisor."

Not interested in the tap dance. Specifics please. You've dodged twice. Let's here the facts.

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...
But the city/state/county doesn't hire just bureaucrats. Try to think outside the box...or in this case, outside the cubicle. ;)


When you're throwing 33pound steel bricks seven stories above your co-workers head, you better beleive that fatigue becomes a safety issue..."

Again, specifics please. Like who you work for, what you do. And anything other than this FLS you seem to face?

Sofa King said...

Since Walker has made it illegal for us to negotiate with the city/county/state on practically everything, those protections are now subject to the whims of the immediate supervisor.


Since you are being deliberately vague, I still suspect this is a bunch of bullshit. However, assuming that it is not, let me suggest that you do what any normal person who is strongly dissatisfied with their work environment does: quit. Find another job that meets your requirements for workplace safety. Don't pretend you are some kind of high-minded altruist when you want to hold an unscheduled gubernatorial election because you don't like your work supervisor!

garage mahal said...

PP
Can you also give us the name and cell ph# of your supervisor, so we can verify who you are and exactly what you do? Kthnx

Chip S. said...

When you're throwing 33pound steel bricks seven stories above your co-workers head, you better beleive that fatigue becomes a safety issue..."

Unless whatever gov employs you wants to get hit with a major lawsuit by the poor guy you drop one of those bricks on, it would be well-advised to pay attention to on-the-job conditions.

Anyway, my shift is over and I've gotta hit the road. Goofing-off time is over for now.

purplepenquin said...

let me suggest that you do what any normal person who is strongly dissatisfied with their work environment does: quit

Actually, what the normal person does is try to negotiate with their employer in order to find a good middle ground. At least, that is what most of the people I know tend to do...maybe you are the kind of guy to just walk away without trying to discuss things first.

Charles said...

I suspect that, since Althouse now has a national and international readership, a fair number of these replies come from elsewhere. Moreover, Wisconsin is not, amazingly enough, isomorphic with Madison.

My uneducated guess is that the requisite number of valid signatures will be obtained but the recall will fail. Just think about all those households in Kaukauna (and elsewhere) whose taxes will not increase since Walker's reforms have provided millions for the local school system.

purplepenquin said...

Can you also give us the name and cell ph# of your supervisor, so we can verify who you are and exactly what you do? Kthnx

Blood sample too? Perhaps hair?


I'm saving the stool and urine samples for Curious King and Sofa George, so you can't have those...

Sofa King said...

Actually, what the normal person does is try to negotiate with their employer in order to find a good middle ground. At least, that is what most of the people I know tend to do...maybe you are the kind of guy to just walk away without trying to discuss things first.


Well fortunately for you, you are still permitted to do that.

purplepenquin said...

@Chip

Looking into the whole "Can a Federal Senator be Recalled" idea, it appears that Wisconsin...and several other states...do have laws on the books that allow for it to happen. However, there hasn't been a successful attempt made yet and it is expected that a Constitutional challenge (on the Federal level) would take place if/when one does.

So it looks like this is one of those cases where we might all be right ;)

Alex said...

pp - still waiting for the phone # of your supervisor to confirm your employment in "throwing 33lb steel bricks".

Revenant said...

Actually, what the normal person does is try to negotiate with their employer in order to find a good middle ground.

Exactly! If you are dissatisfied with your employer, you negotiate with him.

If, on the other hand, you are a member of a union... well, then you're out of luck. You're legally forbidden from negotiating with your employer; only the union can do that. In fact it doesn't even matter if you, personally, are happy with your job; it only matters if the union is happy with your employer.

Wisconsin public employees should be happy! They're actually allowed to negotiate now.

garage mahal said...

PP
I was kidding of course.

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...
Can you also give us the name and cell ph# of your supervisor, so we can verify who you are and exactly what you do? Kthnx

Blood sample too? Perhaps hair?


I'm saving the stool and urine samples for Curious King and Sofa George, so you can't have those..."

Yeah, you really can't give specifics because you're just full of shit. I am now bored of the tap dance. And unlike your retarded public worker friends I'm not distracted by shiny things.

NO SCHEDULED LUNCH BREAK OMGF!!!!!!!!!!!! THE HORROR!

purplepenquin said...

George - I know you were joking. But the others who are sincerely insisting on that kind of info from me (while hiding behind a cloak of anonymity themselves) are acting kinda weird&creepy.

If they wanna beleive that each&every labor organization that contracts with the city/county/state does the work while in a cubicle, then nothing I say/do/write will change their mind...

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...
George - I know you were joking. But the others who are sincerely insisting on that kind of info from me (while hiding behind a cloak of anonymity themselves) are acting kinda weird&creepy.

If they wanna beleive that each&every labor organization that contracts with the city/county/state does the work while in a cubicle, then nothing I say/do/write will change their mind..."

What a crock of shit. I didn't assume what you did, I asked what you did, and how Walker's Law puts your health and life at risk, and offer nothing as evidence. You come up with some idiotic "no scheduled lunches or breaks" and make some claim that it endangers you...but don't say what you do, or even that you are actually denied lunches. So far you don't pass the laugh test.

I think it was discovered that WI does not have any "break laws"and you just grabbed on to that...hence the vagueness elsewhere. My guess is that revealing your workplace would lead to the fact that your concerns are purely "theoretical".

By the way, I'm guessing you work at the Overture Center.

purplepenquin said...

Wisconsin public employees should be happy! They're actually allowed to negotiate now.

"My way or the highway" isn't considered "negotiations" by most reasonable people.

The average newspaper carrier now has more workplace protections available to him than folks who work for the city/county/state.

purplepenquin said...

Gee George, you really think that my unwillingness to provide personal info is simply because there's no profession at all where physical fatigue can be a safety issue so therefore I must be making it up....and has nothing to do with the violent tendencies that some commentators have expressed on this forum?

Tell ya what...if you really want to know more info about me and what I do, post your own phone number. I'll give you jingle and we can talk about it.

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
purplepenquin said...

Ha

I just realized that I'm addressing two different George's...first one is obviously for the local guy and the second is directed at the out-of-stater.

sorepaw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Maguro said...

But the city/state/county doesn't hire just bureaucrats. Try to think outside the box...or in this case, outside the cubicle. ;)

When you're throwing 33pound steel bricks seven stories above your co-workers head, you better beleive that fatigue becomes a safety issue...


The Budget Repair Bill changed nothing with regard to workplace safety or lunch breaks. Nothing. So you and your 33 lb brick-tossing colleagues are just as safe (or unsafe) as you ever were.

Here is the text of the BRB, if you're not full of shit, kindly point out where it says ANYTHING about workplace safety or lunch breaks:

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/JR1SB-11.pdf

The bill restricts the ability of unions to collectively bargain for wages and benefits. Nothing to do with all this other stuff you're bleating about.

purplepenquin said...

Penguin, are you in favor of making Barack Obama subject to recall

I didn't vote for him before, and given his record so far I don't think I would this next time either. So yeah, I'd sign that petition...if it was an option, of course.

Sofa King said...

The average newspaper carrier now has more workplace protections available to him than folks who work for the city/county/state.

Well then, good news! I hear they are hiring newspaper carriers! Better get your application in quick!

Gee George, you really think that my unwillingness to provide personal info is simply because there's no profession at all where physical fatigue can be a safety issue so therefore I must be making it up....and has nothing to do with the violent tendencies that some commentators have expressed on this forum?


Let me tell YOU something: this Recall Walker effort has already given my dog cancer, and has increased by a factor of almost 1000% my probability of dying in a nuclear holocaust! I can't tell you how, exactly, because I'm so terribly afraid of these internet blowhards! But I'm an anonymous politically motivated blog commenter on the internet! You should take my word for it, you big meanie!

Curious George said...

" purplepenquin said...
Gee George, you really think that my unwillingness to provide personal info is simply because there's no profession at all where physical fatigue can be a safety issue so therefore I must be making it up....and has nothing to do with the violent tendencies that some commentators have expressed on this forum?

Tell ya what...if you really want to know more info about me and what I do, post your own phone number. I'll give you jingle and we can talk about it."

Again, all a fucking tapdance. You certainly can tell what you do (you haven't) and how Walker's Bill has effected your workplace since it was enacted. You given one example of some theoretical change.

You are full of shit. Plain and simple. The only change in your job is that you know have to pay more for your ridiculaously lavish healthcare, perks, and pension. Boo fucking hoo. Your are just a typical selfish public employee.

By the way, one George. Me. it's Sofa King. Not Sofa George.

purplepenquin said...

The bill restricts the ability of unions to collectively bargain for wages and benefits

Actually, the bill puts a restriction on the right for unions to bargain for wages - everything else (benefits, workplace conditions, safety issues, etc) is now simply illegal to be negotiated and can not be part of a union's contract with the city/state/county.

Since there are no laws in Wisconsin governing meals/breaks for adult workers, we had those addressed in the contract. But now we can't.

We can disagree about if it is a safety concern or not for someone to work a full day without any breaks....but don't try and claim that there are laws that require employees to give breaks or that unions can still have those concerns addressed in their contracts with the employer, 'cause that simply isn't true.

Maguro said...

Actually, the bill puts a restriction on the right for unions to bargain for wages - everything else (benefits, workplace conditions, safety issues, etc) is now simply illegal to be negotiated and can not be part of a union's contract with the city/state/county.

Since there are no laws in Wisconsin governing meals/breaks for adult workers, we had those addressed in the contract. But now we can't.


Bullshit. Unions can still collectively bargain over conditions of employment. Read the bill yourself.

Either you're arguing in bad faith or someone (union steward?) has sold you a bill of goods.

Check into it.

purplepenquin said...

The Analysis by the Legislative Reference Bureau says This bill limits the right to collectively bargain for all employees who are not public safety employees (general employees) to the subject of base wages.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/JR1SB-11.pdf

What leads you to beleive that anything else is allowed?

Alex said...

penguin, read the bill:

(4) (p) Permissive subjects of collective bargaining; public safety employees. A
municipal employer is not required to bargain with public safety employees on subjects reserved to management and direction of the governmental unit except insofar as the manner of exercise of such functions affects the wages, hours, and conditions of employment of the municipal public safety employees in a collective
bargaining unit.


You see you can bargain over conditions, wages, hours LIAR.

Alex said...

What this is really about is the union greed for their lucrative pension plans.

Michael Haz said...

How will they collect signatures? This screencap of a page (since removed) from the Democratic Party of Wisconsin website states they will be taking named from cemetery headstones and adding them to recall petitions.

purplepenquin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
purplepenquin said...

You see you can bargain over conditions, wages, hours LIAR.

No reason to get ALL-CAPS about it. Or for the name-calling at all.

I'm simply taking the Legislative Reference Bureau at their word. You're the first person who has stated that unions can still collectively bargain for anything except wages/benefits...if that is true, then that is indeed good news! Despite the claims of many, my healthcare isn't lavish and my pension ain't phat...our union spends most of the negotiating-capital on safety issues and conditions. Hence the worries about those no longer being allowed in the contracts.

But given how all the various agencies across the state are relying on the LRB rather than you, I'm sure you can understand why I'm still wary about the law. Could you please contact them ASAP and let them know about their mistake? I'll be sure to stop raising these kind of concerns as soon as they make a public correction...

purplepenquin said...

Oh wait...Alex, don't call them yet!

I just noticed that the part you quoted applies to "public safety employees", not all public employees.

Can't blame ya for not seeing that before. I read it a few times myself before just now catching it.

And here you were getting my hopes up for a moment...jeesh.

Maguro said...

Yeah, you're right dude. I misread. As Rick Perry would say...Oops.

Um, anyway...do you seriously mean to tell us that since the BRB bill passed, you've lost your lunchbreak? Really?

Jay said...

purplepenquin said...


The average newspaper carrier now has more workplace protections available to him than folks who work for the city/county/state


If it weren't for silly lies and hyperbole, you'd have nothing to say.

purplepenquin said...

Ain't a lie at all...when I delivered newspapers there was a contract between me and the company, which spelled out rules and conditions.

Those kind of rules and conditions are now illegal for city/county/state workers to have in a contract.

DADvocate said...

Looks like liberals are opening their Christmas presents early in Wisconsin.

Michael said...

Purple P. You appear to have a highly dangerous and secret job made more unsafe by the State which apparently is out to kill you and your associates. I hope you take care of yourself because without the union to insure you can have healthy meals and snacks and rest the State of Wisconsin is going to work you like a rented mule. It sounds inhuman what they are planning to do to you. I presume you have calculated the risks and have concluded they are worth taking to continue to serve the public.

Allie said...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2411252/posts

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2201861


Chip S, 18 states, one of which is Wisconsin, allow recall of a US. Senator.

MadisonMan said...

This screencap of a page (since removed) from the Democratic Party of Wisconsin website states they will be taking named from cemetery headstones and adding them to recall petitions.

Where is the evidence that that screencap was ever at the website?

I smell a ruse.

Allie said...

http://www.ehow.com/how_2096900_recall-us-senator.html


The 18 states allowing for recall are as follows: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington and Wisconsin.

Skipper said...

Invalid signatures? In Wisconsin? What's that?

Chip S. said...

Allie--Are you really citing ehow on a Constitutional matter? Not to mention DU and Freep?

Anyway, if you read these these comments on this at Freep, you'll see that someone eventually found the very source I gave you hours ago, which led the freepers to surrender their fantasy of massive Senate recalls.

I'll also remind you that my original comment on recalls was directed at a very specific claim--that Scott Walker first won electoral office in a recall election. That has been demonstrated to be false. No amount of confusion on the internet over con law changes that.

If La Althouse disagrees with the opinion I cited earlier, I'll defer to her. But not to ehow.

P.S. Please, please learn about anchors in html if you're going to post links. It's easy, and considerate of others.

Fen said...

will then need the Government Accountability Board sign off on at least 540,208 of those in order to trigger the recall election

I think it would be perfect if all 540k signatures were thrown out on a hyper-technicality.

Or may the GAB or Attorney General could run off to Illinois.


Once signatures are submitted to the Government Accountability Board, it has 31 days to review them. It will likely seek an extension to review the large number or signatures,

There we go. Wait 32 days and deny any extension.

Fen said...

Mark: I'm not happy with out of state money, but I'm less happy about hypocrisy. Both sides are funded by out of state.

Yes, truly you are upset with all the out of state money your own Democrats are getting. Sure.

Go ahead, pretend the other side "does it too" so you can play your little Tu Quo and never hold yourself to a higher standard.

I think the self-righteous and hypocritical stance on hypocrisy was a bit much. But we understand. Its a mental health thing for you Lefties.

Fen said...

Purple: "My way or the highway" isn't considered "negotiations" by most reasonable people.

Glad you agree that the Unions should not have been allowed to hold taxpayers over a barrel.

Collective bargaining with dem politicians for taxpayer money to be donated to their re-election campaigns? It was a racket that would have made Al Capone proud.

Fen said...

purple: No reason to get ALL-CAPS about it. Or for the name-calling at all.

I'm simply taking the Legislative Reference Bureau at their word. You're the first person who has stated


Hey dumbass, HOW ABOUT YOU READ THE ACTUAL BILL for starters?

You expect us to believe that this is so important to your way of life and not just politics per usual, but you can't be bothered to actually read the source document?

Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Allie said...

Recalling Senators and Congressmen

Scroll down to fourth page, states that Wisconsin Has a very broad statue and allows recall of "any incumbent elective official".

P.S. You're right it is easy to add HTML anchors.

Forthenri said...

George, I think I've figured out what PurpleP does for a living. Based on his posts, he climbs high above the ground to throw 33-pound steel bricks at high-voltage equipment for at least eight hours a day without eating.

Roger J. said...

I tend to be a federalist in these matters--This is a Wisconsin issue and best to let Wisonsites determine it.

Here in TN, and Memphis especially, we just rely on old fashioned graft and curuption to determine these issues

Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Allie said...

Chip, you stated that no state can recall a US Senator, after I stated that this very thing was done with Senators Kohl and Feingold, by the First Breath Alliance ,with the help of Walker in 1997.

My latest link at 1:56 AM, shows that indeed Wisconsin DOES allow for recall of US Senators and Congressmen AND that Walker himself endorsed a recall that had nothing to do with malfeasance . SO the conclusion is that Walker is a HYPOCRITE, displayed by going around this state saying that his own recall is not warranted, because it was not for malfeasance.

Chip S. said...

Allie--You do not seem to understand my point about recalls. It has nothing to do with Wisconsin law, but rather with U.S. Constitutional law. Here's Eugene Volokh, for example, on the subject.

In any event, "hypocrisy" is a silly charge against Walker. Do you really expect him to say, "Why, yes indeed, my budget bill--which enacts reforms necessary to keep the state solvent at tax rates that will keep it prosperous--is exactly like partial-birth abortion"? Why should he?

There's nothing hypocritical about saying "My policies are right, and yours are wrong."

On the merits, it seemsclear to me that this recall is unjustified, for reasons I won't bother to restate. The fact that you're left with nothing to say except "Walker's a hypocrite" indicates that you can't find a decent counterargument.

Allie said...

Chip, OK. Are you saying despite Wisconsin law allowing for US Senators and Congressmen to be recalled, when and if the required signatures were collected, the Federal government would not allow a recall election of said US Congressmen and Senators?

Why would the First Breath Alliance spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to have such a recall against Feingold and Kohl? Do you really think they would spend that kind of money if they KNEW they could not actually recall them because of the US Constitution. Seems strange that Walker, an elected official himself did not know this.

So, if the 17th amendment was repealed, US Senators and Congressmen could be recalled? Or,because it is a state law that allows for a US Senator and Congressmen to be recalled , can there be no appeal to the US Supreme Court?

Althouse , do you care to weigh in here?

Allie said...

From the US Constitution Online

Scroll down to Question 130. "The Constitution does not specify that they can be recalled, nor does it say they cannot be. The courts have never ruled on the subject."

It goes on to say that there are several things that point to the unconstitutionality of recalls of Federal officers. SO I will concede to you . :)

Robert said...

and hence this latest tidbit from GWP

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/caught-on-tape-occupy-milwaukee-commits-recall-walker-fraud-give-kids-cigs-for-their-signature-video/

Francis Carleton said...

I see that Ms. Althouse's profound skepticism about the viability of the recall effort was misplaced--always useful to go back and see what someone predicted back at the beginning and then see if these claims were validated by actual events. In this case, not so much. Do such prognosticators EVER offer a mea culpa? Probably not.