November 4, 2011

Madison officials warn bar owners who require a driver's license that they may be accused of race discrimination.

Astounding:
"It's been clearly documented who does and doesn't have driver's licenses in the state of Wisconsin," said Mark Woulf, alcohol policy coordinator for Madison, citing a vast divide between blacks and whites. "That alone raises eyebrows and could easily be determined to be discriminatory."...

A handful of Downtown bars have had the restrictive ID policy in place since the summer in response to a spike in violence that they say was mostly curbed once they started the policy....

Woulf said no formal complaints have been filed against a bar with the city's civil rights department, a first step that could lead to sanctions, including a bar's liquor license being pulled, if it's found to violate the city's equal opportunities ordinance.

149 comments:

Debbie Andrews said...

Next thing you know folks will be required to produce a birth certificate to get a drink; that is, until President Obama decides to have another beer summit, only this time in Madison.

TWM said...

I've never understood why liberals think blacks can't figure out how to apply for a driver's license or state ID. Racists.

Calypso Facto said...

Take another stab at that post title in English?

But...love the city elders DEMANDING that bar owners take action against violence and crime at their establishments and then demonizing those that do...

paul a'barge said...

Black people, please just go away.

Ann Althouse said...

"Take another stab at that post title in English?"

Sorry. It was supposed to have the word "warn" in there.

Pastafarian said...

Interesting. I wonder how someone is expected to comply with all laws, protecting yourself from lawsuits on the bases of both racial discrimination, and public safety.

"Don't open a bar in Madison" appears to be the best answer.

Psychedelic George said...

Story on Drudge now about Denver drivers being ticketed by cameras not for running red lights but for stopping on the white line!

Government is out of control.

If I were running for president, I would start every speech with five examples of this nonsense. It's why Cain ran the smoking ad.

Bruce Hayden said...

I think that the answer would be to allow any government issued ID that shows birthdate and has enough other indicia of reliability that forging would be hard.

What must be kept in mind here is that the bars have potential criminal liability if they serve alcohol to minors, and most non-government ids are too easy to forge - esp. in a college town like Madison.

So, I would think that they could be talked into accepting valid passports and non-driving state IDs. Plus military IDs. Other than that? Too easy to forge.

Sorry dudes - it isn't about discrimination, but rather, about keeping minors from illegally drinking.

Scott M said...

Holy-fucking-shit. My apologies, but wtf?

paul a'barge said...

Oh by the way, here is the moron Woulf

Shanna said...

wtf

Seriously.

Is carding for cold medicine racist too? (although I would be perfectly happy if they stopped doing that)

Curious George said...

"Pastafarian said...
Interesting. I wonder how someone is expected to comply with all laws, protecting yourself from lawsuits on the bases of both racial discrimination, and public safety.

"Don't open a bar in Madison" appears to be the best answer."

You think this is bad, you should see what they do to owners of rental property.

Paddy O said...

Alcohol Policy Coordinator, Mark Woulf!

Last seen encouraging police to enter homes if they suspect there's a keg inside, now puts restaurants in a clear political trap, where they will be licensed by the city, so have to play by the local rules, but are still liable for state drinking laws.

Meaning, that the only way to exist is to stay very cozy with the Alcohol Policy Coordinator. Because one way or the other they will shut you down if they don't like you. Maybe giving him free drinks or something for his loud parties would help.

Also, he needs to retitled the Alcohol Policy Tsar.

Richard Dolan said...

Sometimes maintaining one's sense of self-righteousness requires a bureaucrat to invent a problem in order to impose the universally preferred solution. Madison is getting what it clearly deserves, and may even crave.

Fred Drinkwater said...

Let's see...I have to show a DL or photo ID when I:
1. try to board a commercial flight
2. rent a ladder at Home Depot
3. Rent a car (DL only, of course)
4. Get stopped by a traffic cop (DL only)
5. Get something notarized

and the list goes on and on. I think I see an enormous can of worms; a 55-gallon barrel, really, coming down the pike.

wv: spotor - what we're all going to need to keep track of those incoming worm-cans.

Ann Althouse said...

"Story on Drudge now about Denver drivers being ticketed by cameras not for running red lights but for stopping on the white line!"

That line is there for a reason. I for one am sick of people creeping up over the line. Stop in the right place or get a ticket.

paul a'barge said...

Nov 9, WED. Head down to Madison City Hall and express your outrage at Mark Woulf. Boo his ass out of Wisconsin. See here for more

Hagar said...

Almost 60 years ago, Albuquerque bars would not accept my Federal "green card" photo I.D., but insisted on an N.M. State driver's license, which at that time went for $2 - 2.50 on campus.

paul a'barge said...

Reach out to Mark Woulf and let him know what a moron he is:
(608) 264-9295

mwoulf@cityofmadison.com

Get up and get going, Madisonites ... run Woulf out of Wisconsin.

Ann Althouse said...

"Sorry dudes - it isn't about discrimination, but rather, about keeping minors from illegally drinking."

Read the article. It is about more than keeping minors from drinking. We have state-issued IDs, and they've been very important lately as we have a new voter-ID law.

It's about excluding people who might be connected to violence.

Pogo said...

"...it isn't about discrimination, but rather, about keeping minors from illegally drinking."

Not so sure about that, Bruce Hayden.

The article is unclear, and suggests that IDs other than driver's licenses are demanded because, rather than the underage, that request keeps young black males out.

Might be true.

But then after the summer's race riots in Milwaukee, what is a store or bar supposed to do? (I do realize the race riots never happened, according to the city).

Absent such recourse, the only answer will be to abandon huge swaths of the city, and then every town starts looking like St. Louis and Detroit.

It's happening in my little town, too. Each week, some fresh hell arises; a shooting here, a body floating there, 3 or 4 "young men" beating and robbing a passerby.

Even the smug Madison officials will move away. They just won't admit why they left.

Barbarism, it's what's for dinner.

YoungHegelian said...

Terrance Henderson, who is black and who works for the UW-Madison athletic department,....
[said} "In Milwaukee I've been turned away at the door in a three-piece suit.


Double breasted & now three piece suits!? Another sartorially challenged black guy!

Maybe that's that's the real reason they don't want 'em in bars in Madison. Lord help Cain if he ever wants a beer and a brat in Madison!

Fen said...

That line is there for a reason. I for one am sick of people creeping up over the line.

I've had 2 red light camera tickets this year.

One was on icy roads - I hit my brakes and was about slide through the intersection, so I let off the brakes and coasted thru the light as it changed from yellow to red.

The second instance - I was in the intersection as the light turned yellow. A car swerved into my lane (prob a cell phone driver) so I braked to let him in and was blocked from exiting the intersection before the light turned red.

In both cases, an officer on the scene would have had the sense to let me off.

Besides, we already know from studies around the nation that the cameras are not about making the roads more safe; they're about increasing revenue.

Ralph L said...

Next week: Madison officials bar bar owners

So why don't all these black people have DLs? Were they revoked for drinking in bars before driving? If you can't afford a DL, you can't afford a cocktail in a bar.

Curious George said...

Ann Althouse said...
"It's about excluding people who might be connected to violence."

Speaking of an actual "clearly documented...vast divide between blacks and whites".

Of course, some divides we aren't supposed to talk about.

Methadras said...

That's right leftards, keep thinking that blacks are somehow to retarded to be independent of you. Shackled to your plantation. Let's not forget that leftards were slave holders, leftards formed the KKK, leftards opposed civil rights, leftards enslaved black again with the great society, it goes on and on how leftards in this country are nothing but the new minority masters and blacks in this country either don't see, don't care, or want to be taken care of by the legacy that is indentured servitude at their own peril.

Methadras said...

Ann Althouse said...

That line is there for a reason. I for one am sick of people creeping up over the line. Stop in the right place or get a ticket.


Ann, it's called a stop line and if people stop on it then it isn't illegal unless the vehicle code says it should be, which is really dumb to begin with anyway since stop lines are not break the plane of the intersection. Another false application of geometry.

Fen said...

It's about excluding people who might be connected to violence.

Ah okay. The apes trend toward violence when we give them the firewater. They become a tribal mob and attack white people. Got it.

Subhuman and racist. Its unwise to let them consume firewater in your bar. Your patrons could get shot.

Robert Cook said...

Methadras...you're babbling again. Time for your thorazine.

Rob said...

This a good real world example of how regulation, and regulatory uncertainty, kills business. In addition, it is a good example of how all businesses are considered by some to be public utilities. In the name of fighting some disfavored form of discrimination the government insists on telling businesses how they must decide who the business will or will not accept as a customer.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

So why don't all these black people have DLs?

I wondered that too.

It seems that if you have a "legal" identification from the State or other governmental agency, whether a DL or some other form, you should be treated the same.

"It's about excluding people who might be connected to violence."

In that case, we should probably check for tattoos and body piercings.;-)

traditionalguy said...

This parody of bad government brings to mind the Stuxnet worm used on Iran's nuclear industry. The Madison Progressives are a stuxnet worm that the city has been infected with by its enemies.

Fen said...

Robert: Methadras...you're babbling again. Time for your thorazine.

Thats rich coming from the guy who insists the Occupy Protests have not been violent.

27183 said...

The quote from the bouncer suggests they accepted only driver's licenses and NOT a state id card.

Is that the case?

The bouncer's quote makes the Madison official's warning seem reasonable.

"Galetka has mixed feelings about the policy. He called requiring a driver's license "bogus," as he doesn't have a license himself after accumulating too many speeding tickets. But he said he appreciated the policy's safety effect after a summer in which he was in the middle of frequent violence including two brawls.
"It was a way to get a certain crowd out," he said, describing that crowd as primarily young African-American men who mostly had state identification cards instead of driver's licenses. "It makes my job easier.""

MaggotAtBroad&Wall said...

Laws that ban minors from consuming alchol must be repealed. It's obvious age discrimination. How can a society that worships at the alter of radical egalitarianism let such an obvious injustice stand?

traditionalguy said...

The White Stop line is there to keep cars from interfering with wide turners in the intersection, especially truckers.

But it is a WHITE LINE. So it must be a Scott Walker trick that works but steals the rights of ignorant jerk drivers.

Fen said...

Ah okay. The apes trend toward violence when we give them the firewater. They become a tribal mob and attack white people. Got it.

Subhuman and racist. Its unwise to let them consume firewater in your bar. Your patrons could get shot.


Are you going to delete this one too?

Fine. But I don't want to hear you lecture about how we need an "honest" dialogue about race.

ndspinelli said...

The professor is a white line Nazi.

Jay said...

Rob said...
This a good real world example of how regulation, and regulatory uncertainty, kills business. In addition, it is a good example of how all businesses are considered by some to be public utilities


Ah yes, the left considers business fair game because after all, you have to get a government license of some sort to run the business, therefore you're an open target.

Bruce Hayden said...

Ok, I stand corrected. They apparently are turning away people at the door who have state issued IDs.

But it still looks like disparate impact analysis - there is no evidence that they won't allow blacks into the bars, and, indeed, there was one black guy in the article ssaying he has an easier time in Madison than Milwaukee getting into bars.

Now keeping bicyclists out is a different story. More than justified, given the commonly received stereotypes about that group.

ndspinelli said...

The Nanny City of Madison has a rule that retail outlets have to adhere to an always changing "no sell list" which are homeless alcoholics. Now this. So..we want to make sure young black males have full access to taverns, BUT NOT TO EDUCATION VIA AN ALL MALE SCHOOL!

You can't make this shit up.

machine said...

Read the article:

"It (requiring a DL)was a way to get a certain crowd out," he said, describing that crowd as primarily young African-American men who mostly had state identification cards instead of driver's licenses. "It makes my job easier."

Sounds like race-based discrimination to me. Why not just get rid of clientele based on their conduct inside the establishment? Regardless of race/age/sex, etc....

Bruce Hayden said...

As to the tie to violence - the policy is likely to keep a lot of people with multiple DUIs out of those bars. Not really a bad thing. And, it may just turn out that they are more prone to violence than average, given their presumed higher likelihood of over-drinking.

garage mahal said...

Fen said..
Thats rich coming from the guy who insists the Occupy Protests have not been violent.

Fen, you never did tell us about that hippie/criminal you killed.

I killed a hippie/criminal once.

Felt good. Like putting down a rabid dog.
.

Remember? This might be a good time to fill us in. How did that all go down?

Cedarford said...

Sounds like the ATF and the State of Wisconsin, who think carding in bars is a good thing - need to pay a friendly visit to Madison's erstwhile "Alcohol ID is racist!" CZAR.
Does his race concern extend to carding people who want to buy cigarettes and booze in Madison's stores?
Will he be issuing an exemption from lawsuits on barkeeps and storeowners?

Kit said...

That line is there for a reason. I for one am sick of people creeping up over the line. Stop in the right place or get a ticket.

and please don't drive in the bike lanes. How hard is this?

5ac81c9e-a3ec-11e0-ad71-000bcdcb8a73 said...

Ann, this is such a frustrating story.

What "astounds" me is that such a rule, drivers-licenses-only, would have a measurable effect on anything.

Are there that many people without licenses? Do the people without licenses also correlate with "people who might cause trouble in bars"? Is there really that much trouble in Madison bars that is anything other than drunken rowdiness cause by UW kids from the north Chicago suburbs who not only have (Illinois, and Michigan, and New York, and Ohio) drivers licenses, but also high SAT scores?

There are just so many questions raised by this. And they seem to dovetail with something that really is quite serious, and that is the national trend toward voter i.d. rules, and Wisconsin's remarkable status on the extreme-lax end of that spectrum.

If a simple drivers license requirement in bars has a huge statistical ("less violence") correlation, then what about voting statistics? (Admittedly, there is an apples-to-oranges aspect insofar as voter i.d. rules never require "drivers license ONLY," but I think you get the point that i.d. requirments might have demographic consequences. That is something that Republican voter-id proponents (and I consider myself one of that class) might have disputed...

Rob said...

Machine, et al:

" Why not just get rid of clientele based on their conduct inside the establishment?"

I want to avoid sarcasm here. You are suggesting that you know more than the operators of the bars how to run a safe and profitable bar. You are suggesting that there is no room for variation, but rather there is a correct way. This is what legislators do constantly. Who owns the business? Who should decide what is best for the business?

Let us apply this to your home: Should you be required to invite anyone who knocks on your door into your home? Should you be required to use the same procedure to decide whether or not you shall make the invitation as every other citizen? Who owns your home? Who owns your business?

Robert Cook said...

"Thats rich coming from the guy who insists the Occupy Protests have not been violent."

I have never insisted any such thing.

They have been largely free of violence, but there have been occasional incidents. Given that virtually anyone can join the assembled protesters, this is pretty remarkable that they have been able to discourage or eject those with violence impulses. (One also must wonder how many agents provocateurs are milling around in the crowds.)

Most of the violence that has occurred, as usual at public protests, was police violence against the protesters.

Karnival said...

This kind of thinking should have been laughed out of existence when it first started showing it's head in our schools, newspapers*, and government agencies years ago. Sure one is free to think as they will, but thinking like this, out loud, should have been met consistently and loudly with uproarious laughter.

Now it's so endemic to public policy, that I think I must have gone to sleep a few years ago and woke up in the Bizarro World. At some point, people will start to migrate to areas that they can relate to. Pockets of 'like-minded' attracting each other. Bizarros to Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Madison, etc. People who tend to live with both feet in reality will continue to migrate south....with a few pockets (New Hampshire) left up north.

It would be interesting to see how a metro Seattle would turn out without any of those darn reality people around. Or Madison. Although we do have a current example. It's called Oakland. (believe me- it was Bizarro long before OWS).

*newspapers were sheets of paper on which was printed yesterday's news, tomorrow's horoscope, and Nancy or Dagwood comic strips. It was always a strange concept. This is how we used to get our news.

MadisonMan said...

I was shaking my head at this as I read it this morning.

Perhaps Madison can tell the bar owners: What is more important: Age restrictions, violence abatement, or something else?

And who is going to accuse them of racial discrimination, anyway?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If a simple drivers license requirement in bars has a huge statistical ("less violence") correlation, then what about voting statistics? (Admittedly, there is an apples-to-oranges aspect insofar as voter i.d. rules never require "drivers license ONLY," but I think you get the point that i.d. requirments might have demographic consequences.

Only if you think that certain demographics are too stupid to be able to get Identification Cards.

I agree that the bars should not be able to discriminate on DL versus other ID as long as the identification being presented is LEGAL and not forged.

Forged ID cards, not actual Driver's Licenses may be the problem.

MadisonMan said...

My impression from news reports this past summer is that a lot of the violence occurred outside the bars. People went to bars, sloshed up, then took the fight outside.

Since requiring a DL, the number of violent events has dropped. You would think Madison would embrace this change, rather than looking for ways that people might be insulted/outraged. That they can look for ways that people are insulted suggests to me that they have too much time on their hands and that they should perhaps work part-time or quarter-time. Finding this kind of thing is pure job security for an Alcohol Control Official.

machine said...

Rob, I never said the bars must be required to let anyone in...they don't have to let anyone in...but you can't deny entry based on race--which is what the employee seems to be saying in the newspaper (not a good idea).

My point is that the stated policy (kicking them out/not letting them in)should be based on conduct, not race.

Ann Althouse said...

"Ann, it's called a stop line and if people stop on it then it isn't illegal unless the vehicle code says it should be, which is really dumb to begin with anyway since stop lines are not break the plane of the intersection."

I'm not checking the codes, but I have always thought you're supposed to stop before the line. On the line is wrong. Sorry. Show me a code that says otherwise. I think if people got ticketed for stopping on the stop line it's because they violated the law.

In parking spaces where there are white lines, you're not supposed to have your wheels overlapping the lines.

In traffic lanes marked by lines, you're supposed to stay inside the lines.

A stop line is an extra thick line. I think that is emphasizing that you need to stay back.

Now, quit whining and start following the law.

Lisa said...

These bars don't accept a state ID. So unless you have a driver's license or a passport, you can't get in even if you have a valid state ID. Those who can't drive due to disability, loss of driving privileges or simply never needing one won't be allowed to enter.

I absolutely understand requiring a government issued ID to enter but am confused about why state IDs are not accepted.

The claim is that this discriminates against African Americans, especially males, because they don't get driver's license. I simply don't understand why AA males aren't getting driver's licenses but if that is true, that may explain why as a group they are less employable.

All government forms of ID should be acceptable.

bearing said...

I would think the state has an interest in the state-issued photo identifications being accepted as valid photo id equivalent to a driver's license.

There is no need to huff about racial discrimination; all that has to be done is for someone to propose a law in the state legislature that essentially says, "If you accept drivers' licenses as proof of anything (other than the legal privilege of driving a motor vehicle), then you must also accept state id for the same thing."

Presumably when state id's were established, the state intended for them to be used as valid identification.

Then let it go up for debate.

I suppose it's an entirely different question whether private business owners are permitted to discriminate against people based on whether they have legal permission to drive a motor vehicle in the state. Debate that another time.

Roger J. said...

Damn--althouse has a stop line fetish

who knew

No soup for you

ssfor the substance of the post--who gives a damn what happens in Madison. It's an outlier.

Rob said...

I am not advocating no rules. I am advocating as few as possible. DBQ, you think you know what the rule should be. Why? Are you an expert on bars? Madison? Driver's licenses? What makes you think you know better than the bar owners how to run their bars? Who is harmed by the bar making this decision? Does some Madison bar have a government granted monopoly? Are there no bars which will accept more than one kind of I.D.? Does every citizen have a RIGHT to enter every business? If you really stink should you have a RIGHT to spend the day at the local public library?


Just throwing some things out.

Sue D'Nhym said...

Ann, your town is nusto cuckoo.

vw: flopg. Madison is also flopg.

Fen said...

Garage: Fen, you never did tell us about that hippie/criminal you killed.

No, I told you. Its in the same thread you linked to:

"Its perfectly sane to shoot and kill a hippie breaking into your home."

But I'm flattered that you went back to March 2010 for your opposition research. That must have sucked. I hope I wasted your time as much as you've wasted mine.

Roger J. said...

It appears to me that the city of Madison has successfully pole vaulted over another mouse turd--its got to be the dairy and brats

ndspinelli said...

"Lines, lines everywhere the lines blocking out the cameras and blowing my mind, don't do this do that can't you see the lines."

I bet the professor has a line in front of her classroom.

Roger J. said...

Madison was great when supreme court justices were choking each other in cage fights--now its down to entry requirements for bars

the supreme court justice fights were more fun

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

Are blacks and Hispanics too stupid to get a driver's license? Really?

Then they're also too fucking stupid to drive, buy booze or vote.

They also, like my now-non-driving 93-year-old mother, can easily get a standard government photo ID for next to zero cost.

When everything becomes a proxy for "racism," guess what? Race becomes a convenient proxy for maladjusted, anti-social troublemaker.

I can usually tell a real African from an "African-American" in about one second, and until they prove otherwise I quickly sort them into discriminatory categories, one generally good, the other generally one bad.

The problem isn't race, it's defective cultural values, of which the prominent chip on the shoulder -- example in the post -- is a big part.

madAsHell said...

We all need an equal opportunity to get drunk!!

Jay said...

Robert Cook said...

They have been largely free of violence, but there have been occasional incidents. Given that virtually anyone can join the assembled protesters, this is pretty remarkable that they have been able to discourage or eject those with violence impulses. (One also must wonder how many agents provocateurs are milling around in the crowds


Ah yes, agents provocateurs!

Giggle:


A deranged homeless man who has been squatting among the Occupy Wall Street protesters in lower Manhattan went on a violent, early-morning rampage yesterday, cursing incoherently and kicking down tents.

The only thing that could stop Jeremy Clinch from his Godzilla-like rampage was a left hook to the face delivered by a paranoid fellow protester who claimed to be an ex-Turkish diplomat -- and charged that his assailant was carrying out a plot hatched by Mayor Bloomberg.

“I’ve been here from Day One! I haven’t got a tent!” the Cleveland-native Clinch shrieked as he furiously kicked down tents onto sleeping protesters at about 8 a.m



PS, people like you rationalized throwing Jews into ovens en mass.

madAsHell said...

Jim Crow comes in a bottle??

Ann Althouse said...

"These bars don't accept a state ID. So unless you have a driver's license or a passport, you can't get in even if you have a valid state ID. Those who can't drive due to disability, loss of driving privileges or simply never needing one won't be allowed to enter."

The alternative of a passport is also permitted. Get a passport. Or go to one of the other bars that aren't doing this.

"I absolutely understand requiring a government issued ID to enter but am confused about why state IDs are not accepted."

I think it's that they are trying to exclude troublemakers and they've found that this method of exclusion is working. Now, what if it's working because it's excluding black people? That's the problem the city is concerned about.

Why is not having a driver's license something that correlates with race? I don't know, but it might have something to do with living in an urban place where you don't need a car. You have to take driving lessons and pass a driving test to get a driver's license. Some people don't do that. I'm not sure how much of a proxy for race that is.

Also, some people have *lost* their license because of violations.

ndspinelli said...

Old Crow is an average bourbon in a bottle.

Sigivald said...

I was going to complain, until I saw that the bars in question aren't accepting non-DL state IDs.

No reason is supplied as to why a State ID card isn't good enough, and an actual Driver's License is required.

That does seem discriminatory - not against black people, but against, as the article says, the disabled who can't drive, and (less importantly) against people who don't drive, and fulfill all their other ID needs with a valid state-issued ID card that isn't a driver's license.

I'm dubious about the "documented" part of "black people don't have licenses more than white people", but one proponent seems to be saying that the violent young black crowd they're trying to exclude fits the bill, so, hell, maybe Madison's right about that.

(It's still ironic that the City complains about violence at clubs and then complains about disparate impact in reducing that, despite the indications that the people responsible happen to be disproportionately of one race.

You can't have it both ways, Madison.)

Roger J. said...

Professor_-passports are one hell of a lot more expensive than a DL--It would seem to me a passport is a highly regressive form of ID

E.M. Davis said...

Is carding for cold medicine racist too? (although I would be perfectly happy if they stopped doing that)

Only if it's for Grape Drank.

edutcher said...

Sounds like the City of Madison is afraid the non-white underage drinkers will be as non-violent as the Occupiers.

garage mahal said...

No, I told you. Its in the same thread you linked to:

I just thought maybe you'd want to expand on the hippie/criminal killing incident. Seems like kind of a big deal! I'm surprised it hasn't come up more in the threads, like the Castle Doctrine thread yesterday.

garage mahal said...

Wow, because a deranged homeless man went on a swearing tent-kicking rampage, that means Robert Cook wants to send Jews to the oven. Don't hold anything back on making those connections Jaytard!

Freeman Hunt said...

Huh?

How....?

But...?

Don't ID, get your license pulled for serving minors. ID, get your license pulled because bureaucrats think black people are incapable of getting licenses.

Good luck with that 1984 approach to law.

Freeman Hunt said...

Before Arkansas redesigned its ID, I was once refused entry to a bar in California because they didn't believe that my ID was real. The same thing happened in New Orleans, and the guy there even tried to keep it!

Rob said...

We must have reached near-perfection as a society when we think micromanaging I.D. requirements in the name of stamping out any possible irrational discrimination is something for which we have time and money to spend. I think we should also analyze which products each bar sells and make sure those products are popular with every racial, ethnic, height, weight, gender, religious, and sexual preference category imaginable. Only then will true justice be achieved.

Freeman Hunt said...

Also, some people have *lost* their license because of violations.

I'm guessing that's a good part of why the policy excludes troublemakers.

Amartel said...

"It's about excluding people who might be connected to violence." Seriously, now, what is wrong with that? And why is it just presumed that "people who might be connected to violence" must be black?

According to a bouncer at one of the bars, it's about keeping young black men out. The bouncer who says this doesn't have a DL because he has too many speeding tix. Not exactly a credible source. OTOH, a bouncer might know the effect of a policy. OTOH, he doesn't have a DL and therefore disagrees with the policy. It says so, right in the article. Article doesn't say whether or not the bouncer is black.

This policy is like "no shoes, no shirt, no dice," it simply does not discriminate based on race. Anyone of any race can get shoes and a shirt, or a DL. (Yes, fine, except people who don't have feet.) Your DL gets taken away if you break the law hard enough with your car. Is it discriminatory to bar law-breakers from your place of business? Are law-breakers are a protected group? Are there more black lawbreakers than white? No.

Additional bonus question:
Is it too much to ask the government to fuck off out of your business and mind its own?
(Love how the government guy says he want to give bar businesses "the tools" to keep their establishments safe and non-discriminatory. Like he has command and control with tools. Apparently, the government tools were not provided to prevent brawls over the summer so the bar owners went to their own tool box.

Jeff in Oklahoma said...

Astounding

I probably would have choose - insane.

Shanna said...

Forged ID cards, not actual Driver's Licenses may be the problem.

I went to school in DC and that was the only time I remember anybody having generic ID cards, and it was because you could get them very, very easily (I think you filled out a form and showed no id). So, I wouldn't be surprised if bar owners were suspicious of them, particularly in a college town.

gregq said...

It's time to repeal every single "diversity" and "civil rights" law, and fire every single person with "diversity", "civil rights", or anything "racial" in their their job title or job description.

It's 2011, not 1964. A company that actually engages in racial discrimination will pay for it. All these "diversity" drones do is waste money, and increase racism by constantly focusing on skin color.

I wonder how much the average university could cut tuition if every single diversity drone was fired, every single racist groups was defunded (Black Student Association, etc.), and every single department with "Studies" in the title (Queer Studies, Women's Studies, Black Studies, ...) was closed, and all its members fired?

Curious George said...

Giving this more thought I think the requirement of drivers licenses is too obvious to preclude blacks. I mean it's a giant bullseye.

Instead they should use the same method that was used to preclude blacks from the Capitol protests. That worked like a charm. No blacks. No hubbub.

Richard Dolan said...

"Now, what if it's working because it's excluding black people? That's the problem the city is concerned about."

But no one has made any complaint about being excluded from a bar on any such grounds. Is it conceivable (not hypothetically, but realistically) that would-be patrons of these bars have been excluded on racial grounds and they haven't even noticed? Or, having noticed, not made a complaint? In 21-st century Madison? The very idea boggles the mind.

If the problem of racial discrimination has been reduced to this level -- where the putative victims don't even notice it's happening to them, so that ever-alert bureaucrats have to devise solutions to problems even before there is anything to show that the problem actually exists -- then things are going very well indeed in America these days.

So, whether you think there is anything to get all lathered up about in this story, pause and note that there is also something to celebrate: America is, truly, a wonderful place. Even Madison.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Why? Are you an expert on bars?

Define expert. You mean like time occupying a bar? Kidding.

Actually, a bar owner can refuse service to anyone based on their prior conduct in the bar. It is really common to 86 someone and tell them that they are not welcome back.

You can't refuse service based on ethnicity. For example, we have a large Native American population and you can't refuse to serve because they are "Indians". But, when the person becomes drunk or disruptive, you can refuse to serve and kick them out (86 them).

And in certain cases in Ca, at least, you CAN be refused based on a fear of potential problems.

"the question generally turns on whether the business's refusal of service was arbitrary, or whether the business had a specific interest in refusing service. For example, in a recent case, a California court decided that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that had denied members admission to the bar because they refused to remove their "colors," or patches, which signified club membership. The court held that the refusal of service was not based on the club members' unconventional dress, but was to protect a legitimate business interest in preventing fights between rival club members."

So. Maybe the bar owners in Wis have a case, like the above, since they aren't saying 'black' people can't come in. Just people without a certain KIND of ID based on experience with that demographic, and if it is that blacks represent a higher percentage of that class...well....that's another issue.

Legally, if the decision isn't arbitrary and has a legitimate business purpose, like stopping fighting, they might be legal.

Just my 2 cents as a non lawyer.

Freeman Hunt said...

Losing your license for driving violations is probably highly correlated with impulsivity. Something also likely to be highly correlated with impulsivity: getting into bar brawls.

Google spell check doesn't know the word "impulsivity." Its dictionary must not impulsively adopt words.

Freeman Hunt said...

Wait, we're talking about Madison, right?

Someone should ask the five black people in Madison what they think.

Curious George said...

"Freeman Hunt said...
Wait, we're talking about Madison, right?

Someone should ask the five black people in Madison what they think."

We already know what the five people named in the story and policymakers think. Oh, and surprise:

1) Paul Soglin, Mayor - White

2) Mark Woulf, alcohol policy coordinator - White

3) Roger Allen - Asst city attorney - White

4) Ald. Shiva Bidar-Sielaff - White

5) Brenda Konkel, Civil Rights Now - White

Don't Tread 2012 said...

"Another, Logan's Madtown on West Johnson, didn't have signs up but follows the policy on nights when Hahn works the door, said bouncer Glenn Galetka."

This reads like someone's personal policy. Does Logan's Madtown employ the policy when Hahn doesn't work?

"Galetka has mixed feelings about the policy. He called requiring a driver's license "bogus," as he doesn't have a license himself after accumulating too many speeding tickets."

Isn't that a scene from Bill & Ted's?

wv - amete

Ima gonna hava some amete anda some avegetables.

garage mahal said...

Geez Curious George, with so few black people living in Madison I thought for sure you'd be living here.

Chip Ahoy said...

If you chance to get stuck on the white line, and it happens, then quickly throw your vehicle in reverse and punch the accelerator sufficiently to position your vehicle properly behind the line. Never mind anything that might be behind you, it's much more important to avoid a ticket produced by an unthinking machine programmed for maximum revenue.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

EM Davis said

"Only if it's for Grape Drank."

Whites drink 'juice', blacks prefer 'drink'.

I'm sure you've seen Dave Chappelle's hilarious description of this difference.

We need more Chappelles to help bridge the gap on this bullcrap...it would be alot more fun.

If anything, the bars are showing preference to (legal) drivers that have their license as proof (that happens to show their alleged age).

The amazing leap performed by the mind of the leftist/progressive is a leap to behold.

Lem said...

Madison has an alcohol czar?

Curious George said...

"garage mahal said...
Geez Curious George, with so few black people living in Madison I thought for sure you'd be living here."

I used to. Not a fan. I live in the east side of Wauwatosa. Near Walker's home. Lot's of blacks here.

sorepaw said...

They have been largely free of violence, but there have been occasional incidents.

Cook, are you up to date on what's been happening in Oakland?

Ann Althouse said...

""It's about excluding people who might be connected to violence." Seriously, now, what is wrong with that? And why is it just presumed that "people who might be connected to violence" must be black?"

Note that the city is actually unwittingly disparaging black people. The bars say they've dealt with violence by having this restrictive ID policy, and the city is saying it must be that you've excluded black people.

Presumably, there's a rough correlation between people who have driver's licenses and people who are relatively stable members of the community. But the city wants to emphasize a racial correlation. Isn't the city insulting black people?

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Althouse asks

"Isn't the city insulting black people?"

I say YES.

As does Affirmative Action. And, the democrat party.

wv - pliquiti

Cedarford said...

garage mahal said...
Wow, because a deranged homeless man went on a swearing tent-kicking rampage, that means Robert Cook wants to send Jews to the oven. Don't hold anything back on making those connections Jaytard!

=============
With Jaytard, any comment on any subject eventually veers into him saying something that triggers Godwin's Law.

John Althouse Cohen said...

Not everyone drives, and it can be fatal to mix drinking and driving. So whether or not it's racist, requiring a driver's license as a condition of letting someone drink alcohol is just dumb. But I'm not sure from the article if there really are bars that require a driver's license. The article mentions bars that require a driver's license or passport.

Steven said...

I absolutely understand requiring a government issued ID to enter but am confused about why state IDs are not accepted.

One major disqualifier for a driver's license, especially among the young, is a tendency to get loaded and do a stupid thing (drive a car). This correlates pretty highly with getting loaded and doing other stupid things (like start fights).

So a driver's license is a useful indicator that a person is still a reasonably responsible person after drinking, while a state ID does not give any evidence that the person is a responsible drinker.

A driver's license-only policy will unfairly exclude people denied a license for reasons other than being irresponsible drinkers, yes. The bars obviously think that losing sales to those people is a reasonable price to pay for getting rid of the problem-makers.

X said...

dammit jay, get your national and international socialists straight. Cookie wants to send them to gulags. Cedarford prefers the ovens.

Methadras said...

Robert Cook said...

Methadras...you're babbling again. Time for your thorazine.


What's the matter unamerican traitor, don't like the light shining on your vaunted ideology? Let's not forget you belong to an ideology that has seen the deaths of over 100 million people. It's no wonder you dangerous, evil ideology relishes the two things it loves most, death and slavery.

Smilin' Jack said...

It's about excluding people who might be connected to violence....they've found that this method of exclusion is working. Now, what if it's working because it's excluding black people?

Uh oh...Ann just said black people might be connected to violence. Somebody tell the UW diversity czar!

27183 said...

"Note that the city is actually unwittingly disparaging black people. The bars say they've dealt with violence by having this restrictive ID policy, and the city is saying it must be that you've excluded black people"

Where does the city say that?

The city seems to say, regardless of why you are doing this, that you are doing this might be discriminatory against blacks.

sorepaw said...

If you needed proof of that politics in Madison, Wisconsin, are totally dysfunctional, it's all in this one story.

MadisonMan is being kind to Alcohol Czar Woulf when he suggests that Czar is really a 1/4-time job.

It's a no-time job.

Woulf should be fired and his position abolished.

That way, Madison taxpayers will save a little money, and a bunch of Madisonians will be no longer have to endure one kind of bureaucratic harassment.

Curious George said...

"John Althouse Cohen said...
Not everyone drives, and it can be fatal to mix drinking and driving. So whether or not it's racist, requiring a driver's license as a condition of letting someone drink alcohol is just dumb."

Here we go again John. This is just dumb. I mean painfully dumb.

Rabel said...

There's a little more to the story. It started with a blog posting by Jack Craver on the Isthmus titled "Nothing new: Madison bars don't like blacks."

Woulf put the issue on the Madison Alcohol License Committee agenda based on that posting.

Two points:

Isthmus pulled the post by Craver. (But the internet never forgets).

Keeping Blacks (not all, just enough) out of the Madison bars is exactly the purpose of the license requirement. Woulf just called them on it.

Another example of Madison's inability to handle the truth about its racism.

DADvocate said...

Outstanduingly stupid. These racist, bigoted, biased, pigheaded liberals need some re-education to realize that blacks are as capable of functioning normally in society as members of any other race.

Methadras said...

machine said...

Read the unsubstantiated opinion bias:

"It (requiring a DL)was a way to get a certain crowd out,"


fixed it for you.

LarsPorsena said...

Back before that wicked Dick Nixon ended the conscription, all I needed was my draft card. Good at bars world wide.

garage mahal said...

Let's not forget you belong to an ideology that has seen the deaths of over 100 million people.

So today Cook has been blamed for sending Jews to ovens and responsible for 100 million deaths. Cook is on a ROLL. Look OUT!

DADvocate said...

Keeping Blacks (not all, just enough) out of the Madison bars is exactly the purpose of the license requirement. Woulf just called them on it.

What's the appropriate number of blacks? Should the ratio reflect the percentage in the community or the state or the nation as a whole? What if they require you wear a coat and tie or prohibit jeans? Is that racist or just anti-redneck? Has some secret committee in Madison decided they want Madison to earn the title of "Center of Idiocy?"

5ac81c9e-a3ec-11e0-ad71-000bcdcb8a73 said...

If your goal is to exclude blacks, it must be clear that an exclusion on the basis of having a driver's license or not, is a wildly inefficent and useless way to accomplish that, since the vast majority of blacks have driver's licenses.

You might be excluding more blacks than whites with the policy, but I'd like to suggest that even that is unlikely in Madison. (I'd like to see demographic numbers on the license-less population of adults over the age of 21 in Madison. My suspicion is that there are many more whites than blacks in that category, although blacks might possibly be higher-represented in terms of an inability or failure to possess a driver's license.

In any event, this is likely to be a very bizarre formulation of suspect-classification racial discrimination.

Still, I am amazed that anyone in the Madison bar business has actually noticed any difference in the number of violent incidents based on this odd rule. Weird. I must not get out enough.

andinista said...

Prof. Althouse says "That line is there for a reason. I for one am sick of people creeping up over the line. Stop in the right place or get a ticket."

And that right there is the difference between engineering and lawyering.

That line was placed with margin. So that impatient scofflaws, closet sociopaths, and little old ladies who can barely see over the wheel, who all creep over the line a nominal and known distance, will still not cause an unsafe traffic condition.

All of us, all the time, are unable to remain 100% in compliance with traffic regulations. Engineers know this and build safety margin into the system.

The red light cameras now being used to write tickets for technical violations is simply money-grubbing by the municipalities, desperate to keep their employment gravy train and political patronage structures intact. The contribution to traffic safety is a net zero, and the city fathers will admit it if pressed.

They also breed discontent and animosity among the citizenry, each of who take pride in their driving skills, and do not like a nagging, hectoring, and punitive government that mistrusts them. Who picks their pockets for no good civic reason.

wv: "citypo" so they install red-light cameras.

Kirk Parker said...

Don't Tread,

"Sugar... water... PURPLE."

Kirk Parker said...

Althouse,

"That line is there for a reason."

Can't say about your local situation, but around here there are plenty of misplaced stop lines where you can't possibly see whether it's safe to go when you stop behind it.

Crunchy Frog said...

The #1 reason for losing your licence is DUI. If you have a habit of doing stupid things when drinking (getting popped for DUI is an indicator) then perhaps you shouldn't be drinking.

I wonder if these bars get a break on their liability insurance for denying service to people without valid DLs?

Robert Cook said...

Methadras...Meth...dude...you'd better batten down your hatches. I think there's a storm coming that's going to wash you away if you're not squared away and secure. The problem is, I think the storm is in your head!

Calypso Facto said...

A 2005 study made for voter ID purposes claimed there were approximately 26,000 black people in Wisconsin who were older than 18 and didn't have a license...

...and 500,000 white people in the same situation.

But sure, this is outrageously racially discriminatory. Or something.

MrCharlie2 said...

Quote in the article, from a bouncer:

"It was a way to get a certain crowd out," he said, describing that crowd as primarily young African-American men who mostly had state identification cards instead of driver's licenses. "It makes my job easier."

So apparently they really mean driver license, not just photo ID.

There probably is a correlation between inter-city black kid, didn't get a license, act up when drunk. That would lead to some bitching, and then a civil right complaint. Probably well founded.

Steve Koch said...

Sounds to me like the bars figured out a way to identify a set of people (who were disproportionately black) who tend to be trouble makers. It actually makes sense to me that people who can't get a DL and have to settle for state ID probably tend to be losers. I don't blame the bars for wanting to minimize trouble.

I also understand why the state or the city might say that the state ID is a valid ID and has to be treated as such and not as a trouble maker identifier (even if it is).

andinista said...

calypso-facto says fact: "26k B/500k nB".

Hmm, ~5%. Looks like Wisconsin.

So anything that makes a B's life harder in any way is de facto racism, regardless of whether it equally affects non-B's. So the cure for racism is ... reverse racism.

Madtown, you have seen your future, and it is Detroit.

madAsHell said...

alcohol policy coordinator!!

What the hell is an alcohol policy coordinator?

This guy is trying to justify his 6-figure salary. He has to create a policy so that he has something to coordinate!!

Nora said...

"Woulf said no formal complaints have been filed against a bar with the city's civil rights department, ..." !!!!!

So what he is talking about, then????

This type of behavior is pure incitement, which is greatly irresponsible for the public official. I think this Woulf guy should be removed from his job ASAP.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Kirk Parker

LOL. 'Not the same 'formula"...

"Todd, would you care for a glass of grape juice"?

"What? Ni**er, what the fu_k is juice? I want some grape drink baby..."

Funny every time.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

And if you haven't seen the Chappelle 'Racial Draft', its a must see.

You must have a sense of humor and not be a weenie-whiny liberal.

wv - unron

5ac81c9e-a3ec-11e0-ad71-000bcdcb8a73 said...

Mr. Charlie2;

You make a tempting point; because the bouncer/interview subject said something about race, there is a temptation to jump to the conclusion that there is illegal racial discrimination going on.

But is that the case?

The policy certainly doesn't keep most blacks out of bars; it keeps very few blacks out of bars.

And it also keeps some whites out of the bars.

It is very much like saying that Florida's ban on voting by convicted felons "prevents a lot of young men, mostly African-Americans, from voting."

Here we are getting into "disparate impact" concepts under the Equal Protection Clause. And then the questions turn to whether any racial discrimination was intended, and might possibly involve questions of "disparate treatment" apart from "disparate impact." The numbers of adults without driver's licenses is tiny, I am guessing, and the differences between whites without licenses and blacks without licenses is so small as to not yield much evidence of any intent to discriminate on the basis of race, but rather non-racial discrimination on the basis of an unusual measure of violent tendencies.

The statement of the bouncer hurts his employer, insofar as it might be understood to convey a racial animus. On the other hand, the guy is also saying, 'It works. We're having a lot less violence.'

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Kenichiwa, bitches!

wv - dedwoom

frank said...

I see this is a joint UW-City of Madison czar. Why not just post names of students on sports scholarships. Ban them, problem solved, diversity protected.

Methadras said...

Robert Cook said...

Methadras...Meth...dude...you'd better batten down your hatches. I think there's a storm coming that's going to wash you away if you're not squared away and secure. The problem is, I think the storm is in your head!


Typical leftard lunacy. Show your kind up for what you really are and you resort to baseless charges of mental illness against those that make that charge and yet, nary a refutation. Brilliant. You keep on making defending the indefensible. It's what you are best at you little child.

Methadras said...

garage mahal said...

Let's not forget you belong to an ideology that has seen the deaths of over 100 million people.

So today Cook has been blamed for sending Jews to ovens and responsible for 100 million deaths. Cook is on a ROLL. Look OUT!


You see, this is why you are a retard. At least Cook has the sense, at times, has the sense to try and trivialize what he can't defend. You on the other hand are just a blithering moron. Did I say he sent Jews to the ovens? Nope, but the ideology he practiced did. Did I say he killed 100 million people? Nope, but the evil ideology he practices and believes in did.

WV = resesive = Something we've known about garage for a long time.

AJ Lynch said...

Woulf was a poli sci and sociology major natch.

Methadras said...

I don't know where people lost their fucking minds about this kind of nonsense. If a black man or woman present a valid drivers license to get into a bar, then where is the discrimination?

Maguro said...

If bar owners want to keep out the brothers, they could just put on some country music, that usually seems to work.

Chris said...

God, you guys are so screwed.

AST said...

This is no longer the America I grew up it. I've always looked at photo ID as proof I am who I say I am. Now people think they have a right to withhold everything about who they are. I've lived in Germany and every time I moved I had to go to the local city hall and get my passport stamped. All European countries were that way.

This isn't progress. It puts us all in danger and complicates our lives unnecessarily. Blacks and Hispanics complain about being persecuted for driving while black or brown, but they radiate hostility making causasians feel nervous about driving in black or Hispanic neighborhoods.

Our melting pot has turned into an ice cube tray.

Ann Althouse said...

"Not everyone drives, and it can be fatal to mix drinking and driving. So whether or not it's racist, requiring a driver's license as a condition of letting someone drink alcohol is just dumb. But I'm not sure from the article if there really are bars that require a driver's license. The article mentions bars that require a driver's license or passport."

Yes, a passport works too. What doesn't work is a student ID and the state-issued ID card that people who don't have driver's licenses get so they can vote and so forth.

It's not necessarily dumb. The bars that adopted the rule are doing it because they had a problem with violence. It's true they lose some good customers, but it's a choice of a neutral standard that filters out some of the bad people. And the experience is that it worked.

gutless said...

Another reason out of many, many that I'm glad I don't live in Madison. Your government is barking mad. I almost forgot to mention that your weather sucks too.

Maguro said...

It's not necessarily dumb. The bars that adopted the rule are doing it because they had a problem with violence. It's true they lose some good customers, but it's a choice of a neutral standard that filters out some of the bad people. And the experience is that it worked.

The fact that it worked is kind of what makes it discriminatory. Any marker or proxy that correlates with criminality and violence will tend to disproportinately impact blacks because blacks have much higher rates of criminality and violence than does the general population.

It's probably impossible to develop an exclusionary marker that's both effective and excludes blacks and whites in equal proportions. Math won't permit it.

Sue D'Nhym said...

I think it's that they are trying to exclude troublemakers and they've found that this method of exclusion is working. Now, what if it's working because it's excluding black people? That's the problem the city is concerned about.

So, let's imagine a hypothetical world, different from our own, where national security and public safety depended on racial or religious profiling. Not like our world, but one much more so.

Would you stop racial or religious profiling there, even if it was working, because your worldview was based on some romanticized view of tolerance (including tolerating the intolerant, when politically expedient)?

Or would you continue it? Because it worked?

The old joke where the guy asks if a gal would sleep with him for a million bucks comes to mind. Why wouldn't she take $50? What kind of gal she is already is established, and just the price remains to be determined.

Madison still envisions itself classier than a $25 whore.

When, in fact, being smart is totally different than the world's oldest profession.

vw: unfatsz "The unwedging of Michael Moore from a doorway."

jeff said...

Shouldn't you be more concerned as to why WI doesn't allow young black males to have drivers licenses? If you want to drink in one of these bars, get a DL. Or is there some sort of law that says you get entry as long as you can demonstrate your over 21? I don't understand WI law. Why should a business have to accommodate someone who refuses to get something that is readily available to them?

walter said...

"Patrons displaying only student or state IDs can't enter."

Found it amazing how many posts were made before people realized that getting a state ID was not the simple alternative here.

27183 said...

@walter,

One, there are a lot of stupid people that comment here.

Two, I think they also updated the article, I am pretty sure one could understand that from the original article, but that it wasn't explicitly stated.

walter said...

"Updated: 1:22 pm"

SDN said...

"Google spell check doesn't know the word "impulsivity." Its dictionary must not impulsively adopt words."

Google spell check was written with the typical pubic screwel occupier in mind and knows they wouldn't use a word with that many syllables even if they knew it existed.

Yes, I am a misanthrope. What was the first clue?

DEEBEE said...

Mr. Woulf seems to be whiffing too much of the product he is policy coordinating

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