October 13, 2011

Anti-Semitism at the Occupy Wall Street protests?

Power Line, with a video clip, says:
Given the extraordinary media attention that was paid to fictitious claims of racism at Tea Party rallies, it is amusing to see the press avert its eyes from repeated incidents of anti-Semitism at Occupy Wall Street protests, even as Democratic politicians endorse the “movement” almost unanimously and without qualification.
Instapundit says:
In a movement attacking “greedy bankers” and “the 1%”? Inconceivable!
This makes me want to bring up something I wrote after I saw Michael Moore's movie "Capitalism" back in 2009:
I think Moore is seriously motivated by Christianity. He says he is (and has been since he was a boy). And he presented various priests, Biblical quotations, and movie footage from "Jesus of Nazareth" to make the argument that Christianity requires socialism. With this theme, I found it unsettling that in attacking the banking system, Moore presented quite a parade of Jewish names and faces. He never says the word "Jewish," but I think the anti-Semitic theme is there. We receive long lectures about how capitalism is inconsistent with Christianity, followed a heavy-handed array of — it's up to you to see that they are — Jewish villains.

Am I wrong to see Moore as an anti-Semite? I don't know, but the movie worked as anti-Semitic propaganda. I had to struggle to fight off the idea the movie seemed to want to plant in my head.
And, unsurprisingly, "Michael Moore is giddy over Occupy Wall Street."

ADDED: I see that the blog I don't link to has linked to this post and caused a commenter to say:
I don’t, can’t, won’t, and woulnd’t, read Althouse – even on pain of death.

But I’d bet that as much as she screams about anti-Semitism here, and in Michael Moore’s films, she was lustilly cheering the anti-Semitic parts of Mel Gibsons snuff film about Jesus.
Beautiful. Smear me. Don't even check to see what I wrote about "The Passion of the Christ." I'll Google it for you (though apparently you'll never read this). There's this, from January 11, 2005:
Michael Moore and Mel Gibson have more mutual admiration than you might think:
Asked if he had seen Mr. Gibson's film, Mr. Moore lighted up.

"I saw it twice," Mr. Moore said. "It's a very powerful film. I'm a practicing Catholic. My film might have been called 'The Compassion of the Christ,' though. The great thing about this country is the diversity of voices. When we limit the voices, we cease being a free society."

When Mr. Gibson walked to the press room lectern, he and Mr. Moore seemed delighted to meet each other.

"I feel a strange kinship with Michael," Mr. Gibson said. "They're trying to pit us against each other in the press, but it's a hologram. They really have got nothing to do with one another. It's just some kind of device, some left-right. He makes some salient points. There was some very expert, elliptical editing going on. However, what the hell are we doing in Iraq? No one can explain to me in a reasonable manner that I can accept why we're there, why we went there, and why we're still there."
Oh! It's Michael Moore again. Isn't that funny?!

But I'm looking for stuff about "The Passion." There's this on March 15, 2004 (a couple months after I started blogging:
Read "Hollywood Rethinking Faith Films After 'Passion'" in today's NYT...
The movie's box-office success has been chewed over in studio staff meetings and at pricey watering holes all over Hollywood, echoed in interviews with numerous executives in the last week. In marketing departments the film is regarded as pure genius; its director, Mel Gibson, is credited with stoking a controversy that yanked the film from the margins of the culture to center stage, presenting it as a must-see.
If only someone had filmed that. I would pay to see the edited footage of those meetings! "Chewing over" the popularity of the crucifixion! "Pure genius" to "stoke a controversy" about anti-semitism as a publicity stunt! What else could we do that would be like that??
And on July 31, 2006:
Mel Gibson, you are discredited forever.

... A lot of [my commenters] are defending Gibson and complaining that people are criticizing him because he's considered right wing. I note that doesn't explain my position, which has nothing to do with his politics, whatever they're supposed to be....  Gibson...  has revealed something loathsome about his mind that affects our interpretation of the works of art that sprang from that mind. In particular, it changes "The Passion of the Christ," which had to be defended at the time of its release from charges that it is anti-Semitic.
And December 5, 2006:
If "Apocalypto" is a great work of art, I want Mel Gibson to get full credit for it. Am I taking back what I said last summer, in a post titled "Mel Gibson, you are discredited forever"? Not really. The point there was that what we know about the artist's mind belongs in our interpretation of his work. For that reason, what we learned about him had a very damaging effect on the meaning "The Passion of the Christ," which had already aroused suspicions of anti-Semitism. 
And, for the record, I've never seen the movie "The Passion of the Christ," which came out before this blog started.

170 comments:

rcocean said...

Wow Althouse sees Racism, Sexism, & anti-semitism everywhere.

somefeller said...

Is Lech Walesa also an anti-Semite? I've always had doubts about the efficacy of protest politics and I don't have anything against Wall Street in general, but if Occupy Wall Street is beginning to draw in people like Walesa, that's not trivial.

The Godfather said...

Christianity doesn't require socialism. But if it did, so would Judaism. Christian ethics derive from Jewish ethics.

And in my experience, there are proportionately more Jewish socialists than Christian ones.

I don't think I'd lose money betting that Moore dislikes Christian bankers as much as he dislikes Jewish bankers.

edutcher said...

The Big Fat Pig only has use for Christianity if it can be prostituted by Revolution Theology.

And the dodge of using Jewish names and such goes back to (Godwin alert) Dr Goebbels.

But, yes, there have been a number of incidents where anti-Semitism has raised its head in Occupied New York.

somefeller said...

Is Lech Walesa also an anti-Semite? I've always had doubts about the efficacy of protest politics and I don't have anything against Wall Street in general, but if Occupy Wall Street is beginning to draw in people like Walesa, that's not trivial.

No one is claiming Mr Walesa is an anti-Semite, but the fact anti-Semitism has raised its head at these hooligan festivals is well-documented.

And someone might want to check if Mr Walesa is getting his impression of the Occupation through the Gray Lady or CNN.

Irene said...

We saw a flicker of this at the Wisconsin protests. Remember the Koch puppets?

Hagar said...

Margaret Hoover on the O'Reilly Show summed them up nicely this evening as "a counter-culture collective down there." (In the park on Wall St.)

Tyrone Slothrop said...

One of the biggest surprises of my life is the way the left has turned on the Jews. So many famous communists were Jews, so many in the vanguard of the civil rights movement, so many lefty academics and entertainers are Jews, from Chomsky to Allen and back. Are all these liberal Jews self-hating? Don't they see how their fellow travelers hate them, too?

rcocean said...

Y'know who didn't like Bernie Madoff?

Yep, anti-Semites.

Its the only explanation.

rcocean said...

Althouse must miss Cedarford.

Its the only explanation.

rhhardin said...

I'd guess it's whatever it takes to keep the energy up, so that there's material for an ongoing lefty narrative in the media.

Hagar said...

The trouble with Moore may be that he conflates the terms "Jewish" and "banker."

And no, the Jews of the Russian Revolution never caught on to how dangerous it was to be a Jew in Stalin's Soviet Union.

Lem said...

At the Fox Google Republican Presidential debate, in a crowd of over a thousand, someone booed a gay soldier.. that was all we heard the next day and the day after that..

Antisemitism at OWS?

Nothing to see here.. keep it moving.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

somefeller said...

Is Lech Walesa also an anti-Semite?


Anecdotal to be sure, but a coworker who escaped from Poland in 1979 because he couldn't live under communism is an unapologetic antisemite. I think central Europeans take it in with their mother's milk.

Seven Machos said...

The left always turns on the Jews. This is because Jewish people are so successful at everything -- everything including banking and socialism. And the reasons for this success are clearly cultural and literary. Those traditions, those stories -- they mean something and they do something real in real life.

The left hates success. Because success always and everywhere undermines equality.

The sad thing is the Jewish leftists. They must be squirming.

Fred4Pres said...

Anti Semitism and an embrace by the Dem Elites. And the High Holidays last week ta boot.

Mega Epic Fail!

Seven Machos said...

Agreed with Tyrone. RC has clearly never been to Central Europe.

Get out more, RC. Start with a few states. Then maybe even Canada. Baby steps.

edutcher said...

Tyrone Slothrop said...

One of the biggest surprises of my life is the way the left has turned on the Jews. So many famous communists were Jews, so many in the vanguard of the civil rights movement, so many lefty academics and entertainers are Jews, from Chomsky to Allen and back. Are all these liberal Jews self-hating? Don't they see how their fellow travelers hate them, too?

The Left, as opposed to Liberals, always saw the Jews, like blacks, women, or homosexuals as a means to an end.

If Stalin had lived a few more years, he planned to finish what Hitler started. Totalitarians can't stand it when anyone has a perceived identity or loyalty other than to the state and the dictator.

mishu said...

That video shows a clip of another video Danny "Lotion Man" Grimes. He's the one yelling at the guy with the yarmulke. He isn't really representative of the protestors that did take the time to travel to Wall St. He's a two-bit hustler in the mold of Dustin Hoffman's character in Midnight Cowboy. If you look around YouTube for this guy, you'll see he's always been hanging around Manhattan glomming on whatever opportunity is out there. OWS is just another one.

I post this as someone who disagrees with a lot of what OWS stands for and pretty much everything Moore stands for.

The Lotion Man is not a OWS protestor.

EDH said...

Michael Moore Sues Weinstein Brothers

For a guy whose last film was devoted to bashing American capitalism, Michael Moore sure seems to be concerned about his profits. The liberal documentary filmmaker is suing movie moguls Harvey and Robert Weinstein for nearly $3 million, alleging that the Weinsteins used “bogus accounting methods” to obscure the profits from his 2004 film Fahrenheit 9/11, which were supposed to be split evenly between Moore and their Fellowship Adventure Group. The movie made some $222 million worldwide.

Seven Machos said...

I just googled Danny Grimes videos, and Danny Grimes appears to be primarily an ace motocross racer. So color me skeptical, Mishu, whatever it is you are talking about.

Brian O'Connell said...

Drudge photo alert. Pretty good.

William said...

I read Niall Ferguson's book, The Rothschilds. The Rothschilds were the first multinational corporation. They attracted the hostile attention of Marxists on the left and nationalists on the right. They were always being accused of some nefarious scheme or other, but, in point of fact, their impact on history was rather benign. They favored peace and constitutional monarchies. They did this not to further the cause of humanity but simply because under such conditions the bonds they issued had the greatest chance of repayment. Compare this agenda with that of Marx and his internationale. Whose side are you on?

Seven Machos said...

Well, William, there you go right there. Rothschild and Marx -- both Jewish. Jesus, too. The list would go on forever.

DADvocate said...

The parable of the workers in the vineyard seems to support capitalism, or at least contradict Moore's position.

But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

J said this earlier today: most Teabugs are too stupid to realize that they're defending the demons of the earth: WASP-zionist finance.

Sounds anti-semitic to me.

Seven Machos said...

But Dad, you are forgetting the part in Luke where Jesus says that the workers should seize control of the means of production -- because, after all, the means of production were around when Jesus was preaching (thus the constant meandering of the prophets around the large paper factories of Galilee).

Clearly, Christianity is socialist.

glam1931 said...

It's Danny Cline, not Danny Grimes.

http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/08/danny-cline-occupy-wall-street

Henry said...

Outside of the obvious idiots, the occupy protests seem more medieval than explicitly anti-semitic. I don't mean that in a benign way. It's a play in three acts:

Act 1: Outlaw banking.
Act 2: Who's going to loan us money now?
Act 3: Let's get Shylock.

mishu said...

Lotion Man Danny Cline.

Not Grimes. Sorry Seven.

Check out the first video that pops up in the search. You'll get the idea.

edutcher said...

Seven Machos said...

But Dad, you are forgetting the part in Luke where Jesus says that the workers should seize control of the means of production -- because, after all, the means of production were around when Jesus was preaching (thus the constant meandering of the prophets around the large paper factories of Galilee).

Clearly, Christianity is socialist.


Musta missed that one in Catechism class.

traditionalguy said...

Antisemitism has a 1500 year history in Roman Catholic communities passing down to the Lutherans, the Anglicans and the Presbyterians.

Anti-semitism is illogical, but it springs up among many intelligent people out of rabid envy.

The Nazi spirit concentrates the thoughts against Jews. That spirit remains as strong as it ever was in Germany and France within the European Socialist traditions of today's far left.

Of course all bankers are the borrower's enemy. The Italians invented banking and the Germans perfected Banking. But only a Jewish banker winning over a borrower makes borrowers blame all Jews for it, while they never blame all Italians or all Germans.

This is not your Daddy's Democrat Party. It is George Soros's Party. Soros served as a camp worker for the Nazis in his teens during WWII.

Big Mike said...

The Left feels it can afford its anti-Semitism, because most Jews simply have a hard time bringing themselves to vote Republican. If the American Jewish population were to vote for the Republican candidate in 2012 by a large percentage -- say the 40% they gave Eisenhower in 1956 -- then the Democrat party leaders would tell Moore and his ilk to button it.

Seven Machos said...

I did check out Danny Cline. Seems to be sort of weird and not very entertaining.

I'm not offended. But I don't get it at all.

Robert said...

Jesus made food (fish and bread)appear out of thin air and a gold coin come out of a fish's mouth. He healed the sick without charge. Then he proclaimed that his followers would do even greater things. So imagine an army of folks healing everyone in sight without charge, feeding everyone with food from thin air and paying their taxes with gold from fishes' mouths. I got your socialism right here: it's irrelevant.

JAL said...

Christianity requires socialism.

Do tell.

2 Corinthians 9:6-11

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:
“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
their righteousness endures forever.”

10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.


Not under compulsion. Not reluctantly.


2 Thessalonians 3:9-11 (NIV)

9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

People love to co-opt the gospel for their own agendas. It is also teaches "No lie is of the truth."

Chew on that, MM.

Titus said...

I believe Eric Cantor has sucked a cock before because he talks and acts really faggy.

I think that makes me both a homophone and antisemmy.

Paul said...

Only question is, are the OWS people actually saying the Jews own Wallstreet?

Yes or no?

That should not be hard to confirm. Just get a few people (in states that allow you to tape others without their knowledge) with small tape recorders/camcorders/1st person recorders and find out.

Simple, no?

But I suspect they are as envious people tend to blame others for their poverty instead of their own lack of drive and frugality.

themightypuck said...

Jesus Fucking Christ

This is why people hate lawyers. OOOhh I came up with a slick argument. Daddy will love me now.

Here's the deal. Your argument sucks and you shame yourself for making it. You do it from time to time and it is a weakness. Otherwise you are quite peachy.

Seven Machos said...

That whole unto Caesar story is hard to square with socialism.

They'll have to change the Bible. New version:

And Jesus said unto the people: render unto Caesar all of your belongings and your labor and also the means of production so that the government will own everything.

Sue D'Nhym said...

Hm. Now the demonstrators are being told by the government they are breaking the law (aka, get off of government property) so they are encouraging the people to overload a government system in support of their breaking of the laws our representatives passed, generally with their support or by the support of the corporations that supports (and is supported) by their government, so they can continue their protest for more government, to give them what they want.

themightypuck said...

@sevenmachos

Totally agree although I also don't think Obama is a socialist.

Freeman Hunt said...

You guys are forgetting that chapter in Matthew where Jesus talks about teaming up with the Roman government to bring about God's kingdom on earth.

Quaestor said...

somefeller wrote:
Is Lech Walesa also an anti-Semite?

I love the Poles, but truth be told anti-semitism is rife among the Poles, especially among the working classes and the aristocracy, and has been the norm for centuries. This probably has much to do with their devout Catholicism and their history of insecurity as a nation state. Among members of the professional and intellectual middles classes the prejudiced is far less wide spread.

Freeman Hunt said...

If you want to be perfect, sell all of your neighbor's possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.

Seven Machos said...

I don't think Obama is a socialist, either. Not at all. But I do think these goofy protests are full of socialists -- or people who think they are socialists.

Just wait until they find out that there aren't high-quality lattes or even Volvos in North Korea. Someone should say something.

Freeman Hunt said...

Maybe they're irked at Jews because it was Jews who made famous "Thou shalt not steal."

Really crimps the socialist style.

Sue D'Nhym said...

"We think that Jesus story is nothing but a myth. However, if you go by that books (which is fiction) that your people wrote then you are misinterpreting it because Jesus supported us. So vote for us, you idiots."

Robert said...

The Jews invented morality.
The world has hated them since.

PETER V. BELLA said...

Most professional liberals, those who are liberal for a living, are anti-Semites. They just hide it well.

BTW, at Flopupy Chicago there were several anti-Semitic signs. Every time a camera was near they were hidden or the protesters walked away.

Freeman Hunt said...

(And yes, I know it's traditionally "cramp," but I like the more effete image of "crimp" in the context of talking about socialists.)

AllenS said...

I think Moore is seriously motivated by Christianity. He says he is (and has been since he was a boy).

I think you're wrong. If anything, the opposite is true. His whole life is a lie.

Fen said...

Breaking:

"Andrew Breitbart told FOX Business tonight that he has emails proving the organizers behind Occupy Wall Street aim to destabilize the American government. Big Government will release the emails in the next few days."


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/

themightypuck said...

I love Catholicism until they start with the miracles (and the hegemony). Scholarly, thoughtful, powerful, Latin. It all feels so good until someone takes a trip to Lourdes for the cure.

Roger J. said...

speaking of anti-semitism and OWS--has any one heard from cedarford lately

Fen said...

Christianity requires socialism.

Lie.

Both are in competition for the same thing. Socialism demands you worship the State.

rcocean said...

I think Althouse and Meade should make a Road trip to NYC & confront OWS.

PETER V. BELLA said...

@rcocean- Madoff got wealthy people, like him, to trust in him. They gave him their money willingly. He is doing eternal life in prison.

Liberal politicians who do the same are heroes. Go figure.

Freeman Hunt said...

speaking of anti-semitism and OWS--has any one heard from cedarford lately

If anyone sees a picture of a guy at OWS with a sign reading, "I'm just here because I don't like Jews"...

themightypuck said...

@sevenmachos,

Those protests are definitely full of socialists. I used to live in San Francisco and pretty much every rally for anything had a solid cadre of hard core commies in the mix.

Roger J. said...

Bad Freeman--the sign would have to say progressive jews

franglo said...

The video shows two guys. At least the Tea Bagger racism charges were backed up by dozens of racist signs... try again, apply yourselves this time.

Quaestor said...

Titus wrote:
I think that makes me both a homophone and antisemmy.

Eric Cantor may be gay, not may not be. Who cares? So he's well-groomed and well-spoken, we should all aspire to such social niceties. After all this isn't the planet of Idiocracy yet. Or is it?

Dear and deer are homophones. Titus and tight ass are not, at least not among speakers of received English.

Homophone, is that what you call your Droid, Titus?

wv: judefess

Freeman Hunt said...

I think Occupy Wall Street is pretty solid evidence of our living in Idiocracy.

n.n said...

The root cause of our problems is a progressive rejection of moral knowledge in favor of totalitarian principles. It reflects a degenerate condition in society, where individuals seek to consolidate wealth and power through authority.

As people maintain dreams of instant gratification through coerced redistributive change schemes, the result is a progressive corruption of individuals and society.

The crimes committed by authoritarian interests, funded through involuntary exploitation (e.g., taxes), represents the highest form of corruption.

It is further exacerbated through policies which denigrate individual dignity and devalue human life.

Seven Machos said...

Franglo -- Are you really suggesting that Occupy Wall Street crowd isn't full of socialists and a soldi contingent of anti-Semites?

And are you really sending people to still photos on Youtube in a sorry, comical effort to show that the Tea Partiers had wacky people?

Really?

Think it through here, dumb ass. If we accept whatever facts you are trying to present, what's the very best, most generous conclusion we can come to about Occupy Wall Street?

I'll wait. I know you are slow. But use paper and pencil. Maybe it will help. Maybe.

Titus said...

I don't know anything about the bible and I went to CCD and got confirmed and everything.

I didn't apply myself.

Eric Cantor may be "articulate" but he sounds like a big queen. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Maybe it's that fucking southern accent.

The southern accent and gay dialect sound similar. Pare them together and you got flowers and perfume flowing from a guys mouth. Not the redneck southern men but the more educated, natch.

Give me an East Coast accent any day. "I am fucking hard" in East Coast dialect is fucking hot.

jamboree said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Maguro said...

OWS is clearly not anti-semitic. Their message is "Pay my tuition!", not "Pay my tuition, you Jew bastards!".

Quaestor said...

The OWS protest is squarely within the tradition of American populism, which usually rears its ugly head when the country is under economic stress. Populism and anti-semitism historically have gone hand in hand.

Freeman Hunt said...

"We want stuff!"
"Give us stuff!"

"Wait, why? How would that work?"

"What? Dude, what are you talking about?"
"Yeah, like just give us stuff."

"But how could you build a prosperous economy based on that? What would be the incentives for work and innovation?"

"Oh, you think you can trick us with your big words?"
"No way, man. We want stuff!"
"Rich people have a lot of stuff!"
"Give us stuff!"

Idiocracy.

Titus said...

Southern Queens tend to use the term "Pearl" to address each other.

Because of Minnie Pearl, you know southern.

A southern accent combined with a gay dialect is just cringe worthy.

I spent years covering up my gay ways and now when I speak you can't even tell I am a fag.

Maggie45 said...

Catholic Christianity has the Principle of Subsidiarity. Is not in favor of Socialism:

http://goo.gl/T06ki

Titus said...

I do sometimes lapse though.

When I first met my boyfriend/husband, who is from the UK and Indian and Rich, I was very butch. But I slip now that I have the ring on my finger.

He tells me that I was a lot butcher when I first met him.

Seven Machos said...

Freeman -- Idiocracy is better. At least the people in that world know something about agriculture. They know that crops need liquid.

These silly goofballs wouldn't last 12 seconds on any farm, or any job that requires real labor.

Maguro said...

Clearly they don't care who pays their tuition as long as it's not them. They're very open-minded in that regard.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

I'm open to correction by any historians out there, but I've always been under the impression that antisemitism in the western European culture was an unintended consequence of Catholic doctrine: Pope Clement V made lending at interest a heresy in 1311. Since princes couldn't do their thing without borrowing money, Jews naturally filled the gap. Of course, as the Jews prospered they were resented, resentment furthered by Christians putting the blame for Jesus's death on them. Moore and the OWS idiots are just the latest adherents of a medieval fallacy.

Roger J. said...

While I dont think much of the OWS crowd I can certainly support their position on covering my tuition--I ran up 25K in six quarters that I a still paying on. So I am cool with that (self interest and all of that)

Cedarford said...

Hagar said...
The trouble with Moore may be that he conflates the terms "Jewish" and "banker."
I understand the sentiment of certain people..that despite the obvious..it is important to strive to look away and avoid any association with Muslims to Terrorism, blacks to dangerous inner cities, jews to the key players in the US/UK financial system. But you have to look away very hard!

Hagar - And no, the Jews of the Russian Revolution never caught on to how dangerous it was to be a Jew in Stalin's Soviet Union.

The Jews of the Soviet Union had vastly disproportionate weight in the running of the Soviet system of State Terror. Also Communist Party structure, being key players of the Soviet economy and financial system.
Jews (2% of the population) comprised 30-35% of the apparachniks and leaders of Red Terror before Stalin gained ascendency and Stalin added more Russians less Jews and E Europeans when he was in charge, but Jews retained a greatly disproportionate role in Stalin's implementation of his phase of the Red Terror. Jews were prominent in his inner circle, in preparing the death lists, in the military commissar ranks.
Historians looking at Stalin's "murderous anti-Semitism" do not think it valid. He killed some Jews, many who were high ranking superstars that had done much of the "wet work", but they found he was no more likely to liquidate Jews than non-Jews. His distrust of Jews grew after WWII, when the populace expressed resentment for Jews roles in the great Purge of 1938, their status as cosmopolitan Party Elites, and loyalty issues. A concern Jews dominated the state media, the Soviet professions. There was also strong resentment of the East Europeans to being ruled in large part by Jewish exiles from their lands that the Soviets returned after WWII and set up as many of the high officials of the European nations now in the Soviet sphere.

Stalin was considering reducing Jewish influence down to numbers commensurate with their actual population numbers and adding other ethnicities that had not had any great influence since 1917..The people of the 'Stans, more Ukrainians, the absorbed populations of the Baltic States, eastern Poland. And considering re-establishing the Jewish Oblast in the remote Sino-Soviet Siberian Pacific region..with pressure to induce the Jews to move, up to coerced Deportation.


As for the "Doctor's Plot" - little fire behind the smoke. Doctors arrested and later exonerated. There was the 1952 Prague Trials - where 14 high ranking Czechoslovakian Party leaders and high officials were arrested, 11 Jews.( reflecting their power in the satellite nation). For plotting to break away from the Soviets and ally with Yugoslavia's Tito. 11 were executed. Historians believe they were plotting just that. And also in 1952 13 members of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Community were executed for attempting to assert the primacy of Jewish culture over Soviet culture, and their close ties to the West.
But all in a context where there was also mass butchery of non-Jews happening in the Soviet Union 1945-1953, including many tens of thousands of ordinary Russians executed or sent to the Gulag for pro-Anglo or pro-American sentiments - or simply from working with the Westerners who brought aid in WWII through Murmansk and Iran.

Titus said...

Do you guys think there is a lot of sex going on at Occupy Wall Street?

If so, that would be hot.

Where do they pinch their loaves?

franglo said...

Machos: The charge of anti-semitism is leveled here in some kind of petty gesture of retribution for the slights suffered by the tea party. If the tea party as a whole was tarred as racist because of its idiots, then the same should happen to OWS, correct*? But what I'm saying is that to tar OWS you're gonna need a few more examples of anti-semitism to even be a little bit convincing. As for the well-documented contingent of Kenya hating rubes in the Tea Party, I believe the case was rested quite some time ago. Get back to work, man.

*This of course depends on a juvenile assumption that OWS and the Tea Party represent opposite 'Teams,' which the juvenile mind at work on this blog appears to be pushing.

Sue D'Nhym said...

proving the organizers behind Occupy Wall Street aim to destabilize the American government.

Duh. They are anarchists!

Excepting for the fact that they want Obama to stay in power. They see him as their Chavez.

Seven Machos said...

Tyrone -- I don't think it started anywhere near as late as Medieval Europe. Jews had been a notable minority group in many places previously.

Here's a thought experiment: pretend that you are an Egyptian in the time of Moses and that you are writing a history of the Jewish exodus from Egypt from the Egyptian point of view. You can keep the plagues and stuff, or you can call bullshit on it all. Just assume that the basic story -- minority group exits en masse to desert -- is true.

themightypuck said...

We already live in a socialist country to some extent. The question is is it the end of the world or is it okey fine? Tax is coercion. But does it inevitably end in tears? Is democracy really the harbinger of mob rule? Is bourbon whiskey the best cheap whiskey? Will the next presidential election mean shit to your daily life? (I've noticed nothing from Reagan to Obama affecting me personally).

Roger J. said...

Titus always asks the pungent question: where do they pinch their loaves

apparently on police cars

Quaestor said...

Freeman wrote:
I think Occupy Wall Street is pretty solid evidence of our living in Idiocracy.

Compare Dr. Lexus to to this guy.

Freeman's on the Dean's List again.

Fred4Pres said...

Titus said...
Do you guys think there is a lot of sex going on at Occupy Wall Street?

No

If so, that would be hot.

Only if the smell of patchouli turns you on...oh wait, your husband is Indian isn't he...nevermind.

Where do they pinch their loaves?

They probably sneak into near by stores and restaurants...or use public toilets in the subway.

10/13/11 10:38 PM

Quaestor said...

Where do they pinch their loaves?

Considering the unhygienic smell rising from that crowd I'd conclude anywhere they want.

Roger J. said...

Were Napolean alive the OWS contretemps would be resolved by a whiff of grape shot--alas we are more civilized these days

Maguro said...

@Tyrone - Anti-semitism predates the usury law you're referring to by a good bit. They were already having anti-Jewish pogroms in western Europe around the time of the First Crusade in the late 11th century.

Seven Machos said...

Franglo -- There is less evidence that the Tea Party is full of racists than there is that these goofballs of Occupy are anti-Semites.

You can let your far-left press tell you differently. But that propaganda doesn't change the facts on the ground.

Moreover, the truly moronic thing about your moronic statements has been your need to rant about the Tea Party. Why? This is about a far-left movement full of socialists and some Jew haters. It has nothing to do with the Tea Party, other than the fact that it's a lame, sorry copy of the Tea Party.

Why your continued hate for the Tea Party? Shouldn't you wallowing in all the glory of the goals Occupy is going to achieve, whatever in the fuck those goals are?

Dude?

Sue D'Nhym said...

If anyone sees a picture of a guy at OWS with a sign reading, "I'm just here because I don't like Jews"...

With the sign 10 feet tall and the '...' replaced for a non-linear explanation of why the right is wrong and it's the Jews fault.

/elipses

Titus said...

Men and Women (lower caste natch) squat and pinch their loaves everywhere on the streets of India. And then the stray dogs eat it.

You will never see lower caste Indian loafs on the streets because of the stray dogs.

I actually saw that.

Sue D'Nhym said...

and patchouli, so you take her, to find what's waiting inside, the year of the cat

Titus said...

Some of the protesters are hot. There was some website with "hotties" from OWS.

They and the Tea Party should put out calendars.

Or is that too Capitalist for the OWS?

Nothing can compare to the New York Firemen Calendar though. So hot.

Suspenders, with no shirt and six packs. I would love to eat them out.

Quaestor said...

jamboree wrote:
If Moore did a movie about doctors, there's probably be a lot of Jewish people there too, but it'd be perceived as positive.

A little heads up is in order here, I think. Moore has done one of his "documentaries" about medicine. It's titled Sicko. It is not positive about doctors, except those in Cuba where Jewish physicians are in scant evidence.

franglo said...

Machos-- my "need" to reflect on the Tea Party has to do with the idea that this is a "comments" section of a "blog" which has a "blog post" that compares the Tea Party to OWS, and that the comments in some way offer commentary about what's written in the post. I'm sorry if I have misunderstood the concept.

"Repeated incidents of antisemitism" by the way, means "two." Or do you have some other proof? Or do you just want to start making shit up-- that can get pretty wild pretty fast. If you'll excuse me I'm going to get back to coddling dictators and plotting with Kenyan spies to install marxism.

Quaestor said...

Suspenders, with no shirt and six packs. I would love to eat them out.

Please keep the details to a minimum, Titus. I have to select food with these eyes.

Roger J. said...

My friend Titus is nothing if not informative

jamboree said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alan said...

He says he is (and has been since he was a boy). And he presented various priests, Biblical quotations, and movie footage from "Jesus of Nazareth" to make the argument that Christianity requires socialism

I'm still looking for that verse in the Bible where Jesus says "Give generously, and force your brother to do likewise."

Roger J. said...

Questor--I do liked your avatar (in english) for the senate and people of rome. well done

Sue D'Nhym said...

frango, is this protest different than any of the other leftwing protests of the past generation? If so, how? And why then is this supported by the same leftwingers who supported all of those previous leftwing movements, protests, and whatever else you call the byproduct of indymedia and or anarchist movements?

Seven Machos said...

Franglo -- You want proof, do you, dude? Yet your proof is a youtube clip full of mostly dumb posters (from birthers, etc.) and a few racist ones -- which may or may not have been at Tea Party rallies; there is no way to know.

I especially love that there is a picture of an Obama as Hitler. Because, God knows, no one on the left has ever drawn up that one for a Republican. Never ever.

By the way, here's my favorite Frangloism:

I have an idea for the birther mouthbreathers who want Obama out of office. Why don't you try to find someone who can beat him fair and square in the little election we're having in two years?

Is it because conservatism as fielded by the current Republican party is little more than a media stunt, with no substance, and will be carried forward by craven mopes that no one wants to vote for?

Awww. 6 more years of Obama...


How's that Obama Q rating working out for these days, dude? How's that confidence?

Anyway, there can be no proof for sad cases like you. You define hackery.

So I guess just go drink a latte and dream of socialism.

Quaestor said...

@ Roger J.
I hope you like a few more things about than my avatar. I like you.

@ jamboree
No criticism. It was just a friendly FYI.

Roger J. said...

Quaestor: your comments are always enjoyed and consistent with the historical significance of your avatar--we can learn much from the history of Rome as indeed did our founding fathers. Alas, classical education has gone the way of the passenger pigeon I fear.

David R. Graham said...

"Am I wrong to see Moore as an anti-Semite?"

No, you are right to see him as an anti-Semite (which term also means he is an anti-Arab, BTW, and may mean you are needlessly imprecise in your usage).

What you miss is that Moore is also Anti-Christian. Christianity has nothing to do with either socialism or capitalism or any other political or economic framework.

Christianity, in common with all religions, is a religion, not a politics and not an economics.

Moore's mind is as full of lumber as his body is of fat. I expect your mind to be as free of lumber as your body is of fat.

Why is it that theologians are obliged to learn the basics of every other discipline while votaries of every other discipline are not obliged to learn the basics of theology? Rhetorical question. I know the answer, and it bodes ill for all.

Quaestor said...

According to the Gospel according to St. Freeman in the original text:
If you want to be perfect, sell all of your neighbor's possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.

And the same verse in the RQV (Revised by Quaestor Version):
If you want to be perfect, sell all of your neighbor's possessions and give the money (keeping a 40% carrying charge for thyself) to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, and a nice free Ivy League sheepskin on earth.

WineSlob said...

Jews Are Always Cruisin' for a Bruisin'
Lefty Ruse Just to Schmooze 'Em and Abuse 'Em
Jews Always Vote Dem
As the Hork up Some Phlegm
Keep on Choosin' and Excusin' Away Their Losin'

David R. Graham said...

"Totalitarians can't stand it when anyone has a perceived identity or loyalty other than to the state and the dictator."

Q.E.D.

David R. Graham said...

"Anti-semitism is illogical, but it springs up among many intelligent people out of rabid envy."

Not envy, conditioning, and behind that, rational assessment of denial of reality.

Cedarford said...

Maguro said...
@Tyrone - Anti-semitism predates the usury law you're referring to by a good bit. They were already having anti-Jewish pogroms in western Europe around the time of the First Crusade in the late 11th century
==============
Jews have had a long pattern of being welcomed into foreign lands but then for one reason or another, getting booted out. It goes back to the Greek colonies under the Ptolemies circa 320 BC). And repeats up to the 1980s. The most recent advocates of rolling up the welcome mat were the Arabs. post black majority rule S Africans, and Russians.

David R. Graham said...

"This is not your Daddy's Democrat Party. It is George Soros's Party. Soros served as a camp worker for the Nazis in his teens during WWII."

Roger that. FUBAR.

Seven Machos said...

Cedarford -- So what? And, as usual, you don't even have your facts straight.

Are you going to put that on your signs at the rallies?

David R. Graham said...

"You guys are forgetting that chapter in Matthew where Jesus talks about teaming up with the Roman government to bring about God's kingdom on earth."

The Army of Titus brought it to Jerusalem in 70 AD. The sword Jesus the Christ mentioned some years earlier, and a consequence of his crucifixion and death.

That's your Kingdom of God, say I approvingly. Christianity and the Christ are practical.

Cedarford said...

David R. Graham said...
"Anti-semitism is illogical, but it springs up among many intelligent people out of rabid envy."

Not envy, conditioning, and behind that, rational assessment of denial of reality.

=======================
When you look at other peoples that moved in then got to a point where they had unhealthy and disproportionate control of levers of the economy and political power - you see the same thing happening, as happened to the Jews in country after country in the last 2300 years.
In most cases, it was based on the natives wanting self-determination and liberation from an alien minority that had too much of the power and wealth. Which is in their self-interest and healthy.

Examples are the purge of white colonialists that dominated sectors of 3rd world countries.

The Chinese - rolled back from dominance over vital economic sectors in Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Laos - and wished by the native populations of Taiwan, Tibet, and Burma to be gone from those places as well as "top dogs".

The successful Indians on the island of Fiji who got a little too power-thirsty and greedy.

Black Africa's purge of Indians and Paki/Arab Muslims running most sectors of their economies in the 1960s.

It is a phenomenon not unique to Jews - but is repeated many, many times with minority arrivals that seek to grab it all....

David R. Graham said...

"The Jews invented morality.
The world has hated them since."

Bullshit!

The Vedas antedate not only Jews but also Hebrews (and anything out of Africa, BTW) by millennia.

Gary Rosen said...

"And, as usual, you don't even have your facts straight."

As *usual*? Don't you mean as *always*? Every time Fudd has been confronted on the "facts" he spews out he gets exposed as a liar. He doesn't even have the balls to attribute his rant about the Doctor's Plot (well actually he doesn't have balls period but that's another story), I'm sure it comes from some "unimpeachable" source bwahahaha.

PS - rcocean confirming my suspicion he's either Fudd's sock puppet or bunk buddy.

Seven Machos said...

David -- It was a witticism. Get help.

Synova said...

"Anecdotal to be sure, but a coworker who escaped from Poland in 1979 because he couldn't live under communism is an unapologetic antisemite. I think central Europeans take it in with their mother's milk."

They hate gypsies, too.

I had a neighbor from Poland, once, and she was the nicest lady ever and then she'd say the most outrageous thing, just out of the blue.

So I'm not sure how much weight to put on the antisemitism or matter-of-fact attitude about gypsies. I don't think there are any inhibitions involved. If an American says the same exact thing they've had to overcome some pretty extreme socialization before it actually comes out of their mouth.

I don't have much data to go on, but my experience with my Polish friend corresponds with anecdotes from here and there, including a lady who actually convinced herself that the students she found so refreshingly honest in Budapest were less prejudiced than the Americans who worked so hard to repress their thoughts and clean up their speech.

I thought she was delusional, but there you go. Not that she didn't have at least a small point, and I'm sort of making the same one, that we're inclined to put more value on those statements that shock us than might be due, but the *fact* of it is that these people are saying what they really think. It's not a matter of quaint and admirable honesty about their prejudices if they don't believe their prejudices are wrong.

Quaestor said...

A recent vid from the excellent Pat Condell. A bit peripheral to the topic, but spot on IMAO.

David R. Graham said...

"If you want to be perfect, sell all of your neighbor's possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."

Volitional, not compelled. Personal, not governmental. Franciscan, not Leninist. Find socialism or capitalism in any Christian monastic, itinerant or mendicant founder and get back to me.

Quaestor said...

The banes of modern days give us the finger.

David R. Graham said...

"It is a phenomenon not unique to Jews - but is repeated many, many times with minority arrivals that seek to grab it all...."

Roger that. US Constitution is meant to prevent minority, not majority, domineering.

Now, Mohammedans allied with Super Rich Leftists inside and outside CIA want minority world domination, theirs. Thus they regard the US Constitution and European nationalist laws and sensibilities as dangerous impediments, obsolete fanaticisms.

Canuck said...

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/watch-yom-kippur-at-occupy-wall-street-1.389167

Synova said...

Okay... so I clicked on Franglo's "racist" signs link.

For 10 seconds I looked at the *horrible* sign that said something about slavery... then another that was a bit hyperbolic but identifying tax payers with Jews and Obama out to throw them in ovens and then a poster with Obama as Hitler. At that point I gave up. The worst out there is Witchdoctor Obama and I've seen that.

Boring!

And frankly, not racist.

I don't think that even the witchdoctor thing is racist so much as incredibly rude. A person can say it has to do with some supposed view of Africans, but Africa is not my first association to the concept of witchdoctor, though I'm sure it is for some, and health care was front and center in public discourse. There is no way to determine if the rather tone deaf persons who made the posters considered it racial commentary in any way, or just commentary on magical thinking about medicine. It's arguable that some visual representation of crazy faith healers was at least topical.

And that's the *worst*.

The others aren't racist at all. Political hyperbole did not suddenly become racist the moment a black man was elected president.

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Jay said...

Here is the "popular" movement in action:

The Coast Guard in Boston confirmed that a woman in uniform was harassed and spat upon by Occupy Boston protesters. The woman was walking to the train and said protesters spit on her twice, called her foul names and even threw a water bottle at her.”

Lovely people, these losers.

phx said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anthony said...

Anti-Semetism? Not sure how much motives the Occupy Everything folks.

But I will say back in 2001, soon after 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan broke out, I was changing subway trains in Union Square station. A guy came up to me with some sort of Revolutionary Socialism pamphlet attacking the war. I waved him away but he was persistant (and smelly). Finanlly I blerted out "Shove it up your ass".

His response was telling. He started very loudly calling me a "Fag Jew". "I bet you are a fag Jew" were his exact words.

I am a straight Catholic, but still, I felt a moment of solidarity with my gay Jewish brethen there for a moment.

Paddy O said...

It's never brought up how in the Gospels tax-collectors are always lumped in with sinners, prostitutes, and other evil-doers.

Tax-collecting is something you get forgiven for, not something that was celebrated. (technically, the forgiveness comes from collecting too much taxes... but that's pretty applicable).

J said...

"Love ye your enemies, and do good and lend, hoping for nothing again." (Luke 6:34-35)


Perhaps JC's not marxist but he wasn't exactly supporting capitalism, or KochCo. There are prohibitions against usury and avarice in general in both Old and New Testament (and in...Aquinas ,other christian thinkers).

J said...

The OWS protest is squarely within the tradition of American populism

Queerster with his usual over-generalized half-truth. The P-word! You mean...like Jeffersonian democracy itself? Jefferson himself opposed the Federalists' finance schemes, mostly imported from the Bank of England (per Alex Hamilton). Besides ,it doesn't get more populist than the teabaggers.

egoist said...

On the Capitalism : Christianity, I do not see an overlap; they are incompatible. And, I think that this is the Right's vulnerability, you can't be consistently pro-capitalist and pro-christian at once. In any battle of ideas, you need consistency.

Geoff Matthews said...

The problem with socialism is that it does not put responsibilities on those (the poor) that are receiving assistance. Too often, the assistance is a blank check that is not earned.
That type of relationship doesn't work.

Lockestep said...

Somefeller said:
Is Lech Walesa also an anti-Semite? I've always had doubts about the efficacy of protest politics and I don't have anything against Wall Street in general, but if Occupy Wall Street is beginning to draw in people like Walesa, that's not trivial.

Oh, #occupy is not trivial. Neither were the 1968 Chicago riots. Like the 1968 riots, the Democrats will reap the whirlwind for being associated with the movement. Middle America is watching with growing outrage, and their protest will take place in November 2012.

Paddy O said...

egoist, if you don't think they're compatible then you don't understand Christianity.

Because, ultimately, the type of system doesn't actually matter to Christianity, as Christianity is about personal responsibilities no matter the context.

Communism was incompatible with Christianity because of its official stance on atheism, but even in China we find Christian communities thriving.

What's interesting to me is that the Christian Left is almost the same as the Christian Right in terms of wanting to impose a morality upon the nation. They are very Constantinian, thinking the State has the right and duty to impose a supposedly Christian value structure upon everyone. Listen to the arguments, they're all moral claims upon people.

But that's entirely wrong when the Christian right does it and wrong with the Left does the same exact thing, with the same exact moral fervor, but with different specific issues.

Technically, the only form of government Jesus did actually support was a totalitarian monarchy.

Dave said...

The common distortion of the Bible parables is that they are not about earthly economics but about Heaven. Working in the vineyard refers works of charity done for God through faith, the wage is eternal life.

The Church, by which I mean the Catholic Church, condemns both the excesses of materialism and communism/socialism. The Church teaches both the moral obligation to help the poor and the voluntary nature of that obligation. the church also teaches the respect for property and the dangers of envy. Consequences of ignoring our obligations are left to the God, we are not to judge. Freedom and respect for autonomy is an essential element of subsidiarity. It is to balanced with solidarity not replaced by it.

Liberation theology (nor "revolution theology") was condemned by John Paul II, in part because it is too worldly as it is devoted to a political solution - not an eternal one. True Christianity is actually a hard to practice balance. What is required is self examination: an inward looking approach that leads to penance, prayer, forgiveness and ultimately the loss of the self (For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. Matt 16:25)

In blaming others Moore is being conveniently selective and ignoring the call to self-awareness. A psychologist might call it projection. The Gospel condemns slander and hypocrisy. Consider Michael is a multi-millionare who made his money smearing other millionares.

A couple of other things. Lending money was under interdict in the Middle Ages as usury. So only Jews where willing to lend money at interest to fund the crusades against Islam. Jews had money because they were broadly prohibited from owning land and therefore had to work trades. Further mobility was required to escape various persecutions that periodically swept through Europe and money made mobility easier.

Italians started banking? I don't believe it. Perhaps a particular form of banking, but certainly not the fundamental lending at interest.

Full disclosure I was a jew before I converted to Catholicism. A key part of my conversion was made possible by JPIIs condemnation of anti-semitism as a mortal sin, which is another point which Moore, a Catholic, also appears to ignore.

Jacketseed said...

dumbest article ever. EVER.

egoist said...

Paddy O - Perhaps you're right. I take it that the essence of it is - as depicted by the central icon of the crucifix - is sacrifice. Sacrifice is foundational to the various non-capitalists cultures of man's history.

Perhaps you don't understand Capitalism.

LizM said...

it's actually anti-semitic to associate "banking" and "the richest 1%" with jews. i love that the extreme right's efforts at calling out racism are actually really racist.

SGT Ted said...

They hate the gypsies because gypsy culture is a thief and con-man culture. I had some dealings with gypsies while in the Ukraine. There is not much to sympathise with.

Paddy O said...

Egoist, the essence is sacrifice, but one that we make for ourselves. Jesus chose to go to the cross. He didn't tell all his disciples to sacrifice for him. (though most of them later did have their own martyrdom).

There's nothing in capitalism that says I have to screw another person financially or be selfish with my money or live extravagantly. In capitalism I have the choice to be as frugal or profligate as I want to, which effectively means that in capitalism I have the ability to make my own choice about my level of sacrifice.

Everything in Christianity says that you are responsible for your moral choices, not someone else's. I personally see a lot of good in voluntarily living in a community where finances are shared. I think there's a wonderful quality to community when people are willing to let go there own selfish desires and live in a way which helps others.

But, evil comes when I demand others live as I think they should, when I take away their choice. I'm sending them to a cross they haven't chosen. Christian history has done things like that in the past, but its never been the side of the Church that reflects the actual life and teaching of Christ.

Take up your own cross, don't give it to someone else.

FreeHairyApe said...

I wouldn't be so quick to gloss over racism at Tea Party gatherings, but, interesting post, I have seen medieval Jew-bashing signs at one of the Occupy protests. Along with plenty of other kooks.

Occupy is spreading like wildfire because, duh, lots of people are not happy. Lots of less catchy existing movements are trying to hijack it, for gay rights, union rights, nudists, politicians, whatever. They should be doubly alert for being hijacked by this very old hate theme.

Dave said...

Nicely stated Paddy O

Sassinak said...

uHow much harder than me can a CEO work ? twice harder ? ten times harder? Is it possible that he can work 400 times harder than me ? No. Then why is he getting paid 400 more than I ?

Is he more responsible than I ? If so, why is it that when HE screws up, I get fired?

How did he get that job anyway ?

These people (WHO CARES WHAT RELIGION, RACE, OR SEX THEY ARE) all share one thing: they believe they have achieved godhood, and have the right to kill (directly or not) does that do not submit to their will. They believe THEY are the "entitled" ones.

Paddy O said...

"Sacrifice is foundational to the various non-capitalists cultures of man's history."

Indeed. And such sacrifices are almost always Pagan. Sacrificing a poor man's child for a rich man's gain.

The various non-capitalist cultures in history have been rife with poverty and totalitarian excess, as the politicians feed off the souls of their subjects, sacrificing the people for more power and favor.

Jesus, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!


He did not use power to take from others or to demand others sacrifice. He let go his power and sacrificed himself. That's the calling. We are to voluntarily let go what we think we are owed, and live in a way of helping others.

Take away the voluntary choice, however, and you take away the example of Christ and you take away the moral depths of transformation that always is enjoined on the individual, not on the society.

After Constantine, the Church thought it had the power to impose morality on all of society, to impose a sacrifice of sorts. That never works out well, just as it never works out well in non-capitalist countries. People are never hated more than in non-capitalist countries, where actual individuals simply don't matter compared to the philosophy of the state.

Jesus was about the exact opposite. Individuals, particular people, always matter to him.

J said...

Yr wrong Paddy O.The New Testament itself is against..totalitarianism. Christ's statement on "render unto Caesar" suggests something like respecting the state actually--a point lost on teabag-libertarians. The Pax romana was not a monarchy ala England but a civil state, in theory. (life under a somewhat "good" emperor--Augustus--was probably pleasant for most roman citizens at least...Tiberius or Nero..not .pleasant).

Of course right and left have taken advantage of religion (ie,the german christians suppporting nazis) but that has little to with the original message itself --say of the Sermon OTM--which however it might bother the evangelicals--or macho-catholic sorts (Rooody Jooliani's) was ..kumbaya-ish.

--The obsessive PC worries (now used by the TP when necessary-as on AA)about 'anti-semitism" have a flipside: criticize a pedazo such as Eric Cantor or Bloomberg or Kissinger himself..and you're an anti-semite! So in effect dissent is eliminated: you can't call Bloomberg a piece of shit,or... yr denying the holocaust. How the PC right works.

("Dave" Bellami,sorepaw, Graham---teacher union on you too,fraud. Hasta la Buh bye to you and yr boyfriend McX)

Chuck66 said...

Christianity is not socialism. probably communityism, where you work to better your community, but not have the gov't confiscate things from you.

Chuck66 said...

I believe this intense hatred of the Kochs is partially anti-Semitism. The imagery the left uses against them is right out of early 20th century Jew hatred.

The greedy Jew banker/store owner/businessman/hollywood studio owner.

Dad29 said...

FWIW, I've read Benedict XVI's "Jesus of Nazareth" and in NO WAY does the book support socialism, nor does it quote Christ to that effect.

Moore's simply lying.

Chuck66 said...

Sassink, first, I do agree that CEOs are way over paid. But, having said that, it isn't how hard you work, its how much value you add to the company. Its starts with the inputs. I just finished my MBA. It cost me $55,000 of my own money (mostly in loans), plus about $15,000 of my employers (who then sent my job to India and fired me....so they didn't get much back on their investment).

Then you work. You learn. You supervise. You are not just responsible for your own work, but the people under you. And the people under them.

How many people do you supervise? If you have 60 people reporting to you and you are responsible for the work of all 60, maybe you should earn quite a bit more than the person who is an individual contributer.

J said...

The Kochs are German, but not jews. So ,you're offbase as usual Chuck. You like Kissinger then?

egoist said...

Paddy O - "There's nothing in capitalism that says I have to screw another person financially or be selfish..." I agree and disagree. Capitalism bars screwing another person, financially or otherwise (consequential yayas notwithstanding). However, capitalism does require selfishness; selfishness to sort and act on your own values, including the choice to trade with another man or not.

"responsibility" to whom, to what value structure, to what set of ethics?

cassandra lite said...

"Is Lech Walesa also an anti-Semite?" The answer to that may be yes. When he was running for president of Poland in 1990, he was behind in the polls until he announced that he was "100 percent pure Pole," an allusion to the rumors that his opponent, Masowiecki, was a Jew (he was a lifelong Catholic). Walesa won, and later apologized, but this is Poland we're talking about here. This is the place where, in the 17th century, the modern pogrom started (see: Chemielnitzki). As a devoted Roman Catholic, Walesa would still be under the influence of the zeitgeist of the youth. Some Jews who had managed to survive Auschwitz were set upon and murdered by "average" Poles, who still blamed them for (fill in the blank). It's the old 1 percent solution).

Jay said...

Sassinak said...
uHow much harder than me can a CEO work ? twice harder ? ten times harder? Is it possible that he can work 400 times harder than me ? No. Then why is he getting paid 400 more than I


Um, what business is it of yours?

Why do you care so much?

Bexter said...

This post shows a clear and unfortunate misunderstanding of the Occupy Wall Street protests. Here's something to help with that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy

Michael Rivero said...

This one agitator is a plant.

Israel is terrified of OWS because if it succeeds, Israel's guaranteed access to American taxpayer's wallets is over and more importantly, Israel will no longer be protected by a US veto at the United nations Security Council.

Israel is desperate to shut down OWS, so they are doing what they always do, scream "You're an anti-Semite" at the top of their lungs.

Freeman Hunt said...

uHow much harder than me can a CEO work ? twice harder ? ten times harder? Is it possible that he can work 400 times harder than me ? No. Then why is he getting paid 400 more than I ?

He could easily be 400 times more valuable than you are to the company. That's not a snark. I'm not making fun of you. I'm pointing out that the CEO has the potential to have a much greater effect on company profit than a lower level employee. The CEO is also far harder to replace.

If it costs 400 times whatever you make to lure the desired CEO, and that CEO is expected to increase profits by 4000 times whatever you make, he's worth it.

James said...

The American right was enthusiastically antisemitic until World War II. Lately, they've claimed to change, but the old instinct is still there. For the right, for example, George Soros is obviously a modern version of Jew Suss, the evil Jewish financier. By denouncing him, the conservatives can have their cake and eat it to. (If you think this line of thought is a stretch. Why is it more of a stretch that Althouse's screed?)

Althouse's libelous charge that the antisemitism is a significant motivation of the OWS protests is rather funny. As if the events of the last three or four years didn't give people a reason to complain about Wall Street. Althouse is simply continuing her normal practice of defending privilege by every available means.

Seven Machos said...

James -- The Old American right like Joe Kennedy? Like that old right?

And, of course those virulent right wing nationalists and socialists in Germany. They just wanted to keep government out of peoples' lives and the country out of war.

You've got a lot to learn, Little Buddy. A lot.

Paddy O said...

"The New Testament itself is against..totalitarianism."

Um... have you read the bits about the Kingdom of God.

God is all-powerful, the definer of reality, etc. and so on. Jesus does the will of the Father and that's all that matters.

Totalitarian monarchy, God defines every aspect of existence in the New Testament. Anything other issue of governance is always relegated as inconsequential to this reality .

Paddy O said...

selfishness to sort and act on your own values, including the choice to trade with another man or not.

Which is exactly the option that God gives to us all. And the responsibility to choose how we wish to act.

responsibility" to whom, to what value structure, to what set of ethics?

That's up to each of us. Sure we are judged by how we act, but by God. We don't have the right to choose someone else's ethics. That's precisely what the Christian Right tries to do. Which is why it's so interesting that the exact same patterns are being exhibited by the Christian Left. They just use different verses on different topics to support the same exact kind of imposition of morality on others.

The trouble with capitalism is that it lets people choose to be who they want to be. But that's precisely what Jesus allowed people to do. When the rich young ruler refused to sell everything and give the proceeds to the poor, Jesus didn't strike him dead or force him or call for the Roman soldiers to confiscate his goods by force of law. He watched him walk away.

People were given choices by Jesus, not forced into another person's set of moral decisions.

Capitalism lets sinners be sinners and saints be saint out of choice. That's absolutely and utterly what God allows for too.

Seven Machos said...

Althouse's libelous charge

Sue her, Little Buddy. What are you waiting for?

Christopher in MA said...

Michael Rivero said:

"Israel is terrified of OWS because if it succeeds, Israel's guaranteed access to American wallets is over, and more importantly, Israel will no longer be protected by a US veto at the United Nations Security Council."

Of course. Because all that talk about driving the Jews into the sea is just overheated fantasy. And when I'maDinnerJacket boasts about being able to wipe Israel off the map, he's just pulling their legs. Yes, why on earth would they need to be "protected" by the United States? Those lousy Jews only want that sweet, sweet US gold.

"Israel is desperate to shut down OWS, so they're doing what they always do, scream "you're an anti-semite!" at the top of their lungs."

Welcome to Althouse, Michael. Gruppenfuhrer Cedarford ought to be along soon, and I have no doubt the two of you will get along just fine.

Oh, and by the way, I've been called a "Israeli ball-washer" by better men than you, so when you post some predictable snark about how I'm blind to ZOG and the pernicious Jew plot to control the world, do make sure it's particularly original, won't you?

PB said...

Christopher. I'madinnerjacket (that's good) actually didn't say anything about driving Israel into the sea, the Western translators working for the not at all Jewish-owned media certainly did though. That's the thing about language, you don't know what he said, just what someone told you he said. Of course if that someone who told you is working to an agenda of their own.... I guess thinking it through would make on an "Anti-Semite".

Jose_K said...

So , Shakespeare is discredited forever?

sorepaw said...

Israel is terrified of OWS because if it succeeds, Israel's guaranteed access to American taxpayer's wallets is over and more importantly, Israel will no longer be protected by a US veto at the United nations Security Council.

What's the definition of "success" here?

A violent takeover of the United States by OWS forces?

If, in the aftermath, the leaders of OWS can agree among themselves on the matter, they can order an end to all US aid to Israel, instruct their handpicked UN ambassador to vote against Israel in the Security Council, etc.

If, on the other hand, the definition of "success" is merely the reelection of Barack Obama, the hoped-for events will not necessarily follow.

Synova said...

"This one agitator is a plant.

Israel is terrified of OWS because if it succeeds, Israel's guaranteed access to American taxpayer's wallets is over and more importantly, Israel will no longer be protected by a US veto at the United nations Security Council.

Israel is desperate to shut down OWS, so they are doing what they always do, scream "You're an anti-Semite" at the top of their lungs.
"

Heh.

In other words...

OWS isn't anti-Semite, it's just that the vast Jewish Conspiracy sees it as a threat.

Gotcha.

Alan said...

Christianity is not anti-capitalist. The definition of capitalism is: an economic system by which the means of production are owned by the private sector. It also assumes a system where all businesses play by the same rules. Where does Jesus preach against that?

JAL said...

@ Roger I ran up 25K in six quarters

???

WHY?

G said...

OWS is Anti-Semitic? Oh I guess you mean like the Kol Nidre service for Yom Kippur with 700 OWS attendees as documented here, here, and here. Or maybe you mean the celebration of Sukkah at OWS and occupations around the country, as documented here and here.

When an individual showed up with an anti_Semitic sign (featured in the Power Line video), the OWS response can be seen here, here, here, and here. As one of the long-term attendees noted "People have been yelled out of the park. Someone had a sign the other day that said 'Kill the Jew Bankers.' They got screamed out of the park."
The video on Power Line also featured a local crazy who goes under the name "Lotion Man" - as Gawker notes "Yep, just look at this video of a completely representative Wall Street protester that the National Review discovered down in Manhattan's Zuccotti Park."

Given that we have freedon of speech, you can't prevent crazies or people with very abberant views from popping up and talking. Anyone who's ever attended a demonstration of any sort has seen this phenomenon. But to pretend that shows an anti-Semitic componant to OWS is sheer intellectual dishonesty.