IN THE COMMENTS: Paul Zrimsek said:
I won't know how big a scandal this is until I've seen the wine list. Anything over $100 a bottle, I say impeach him.
July 9, 2011
"Obama Sold, Tracked, Same Guns To Cartels He Hoped To Ban Because They Were Tracked From Cartels."
Scandal.
IN THE COMMENTS: Paul Zrimsek said:
IN THE COMMENTS: Paul Zrimsek said:
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124 comments:
Serious, but people won't pay enough attention to cause much to happen.
People meaning people? Or people meaning the press?
The MSM is so committed to Obama that they will bury the story. Darrel Issa is on the case but he has the entire MSM on the other side.
Maybe they can get to Holder as he has other scandals brewing.
What they need is an Idaho jury. Then there would be some hides nailed to the barn door.
I've thought, almost from the moment that Obama was nominated, that he would have to be impeached and removed from office.
I didn't really have anything to base that on in terms of any of his actions.
I'm originally from Chicago. I knew the political climate from whence he came. Also, I read Steve Sailer's critique of Obama's bio before the 2008 election.
Therefore, I knew that Obama came from a very radical background.
I continue to think that (this incident aside) Obama will engage in behavior, and govern, in such an arrogant manner that there will be very little choice but to impeach him. Or, what may be worse, to turn away and ignore impeachable offenses.
I hope that that is not true, because that would really be a blood letting. The racial thing would really go stratospheric.
There will never be an Obama scandal..never. The Vikings winning the Super Bowl is more likely.
It's a very big deal - on a number of levels. It looks like three things are emerging. 1.) Funding was tucked into the Stimulus bill - who did that? 2.) It explains that odd comment Hillary made about all the guns in Mexico coming from the US, which felt at the time like a move towards gun regulation here, and 3.) similarly, it explains Obama's odd reaction to the Honduras mess.
Several interesting posts around the blogosphere: Two big developments have emerged in Gunwalker..... ATF Director Kenneth Melson has indeed spilled his guts and testified on July 4th before Congressional investigators. Gunwalker goes all the way to Eric Holder, Hillary Clinton and that walking manifestation of Incubus and Succubus, Barack Obama and Valerie Jarrett. Further, Mike Vanderboegh and David Codrea over at Sipsey Street Irregulars have broken news this morning that Holder/Clinton/Obama-Jarrett also were walking guns out of Florida into Honduras.
Here’s the money quote: “There are emails in existence where (Special Agent in Charge Virginia) O’Brien has advised those involved that Tampa does not have to report their walked guns because Tampa FD is not a part of Southwest Border or Project Gunrunner.” Barnhardt: Gunwalker – Laying It All Out
Honduras? Why would ATF walk guns to Honduras? 1. The national scope of the Gunwalker Scandal & 2. Because that's where some of the action is. sipseystreetirregulars
First, and this is important to understand: the Tampa operation proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that "Project Gunwalker" was a national strategy, not a Phoenix aberration. The "major media" has been slow to understand this. They have ignored the fact that the Houston Field Division had to have played a supervisory role in known straw buying incidents in Dallas and Columbus NM as they are in their area of operations, not Phoenix's. Original reporting on this subject from Texas has been pitiful.
Second, Honduras is where the action is.
Source claims ATF's Tampa SAC walked guns to HONDURAS! Part of Operation Castaway? Exclusive Report by David Codrea & Mike Vanderboegh. sipseystreetirregulars
You left out the correct choice: This is desperately serious, yet, if it blows up, it'll be the administration shooting themselves in the foot with the cover up that does it.
Three more parts of the story (depending on who you believe):
- Gun sellers flagged some of the purchases and were told by ATF to go through with them. "Nice business you got there. Would be a shame if every transaction were held up indefinitely for 'review' ..."
- Several reports of retaliation vs. folks in the agencies involved who questioned the initiative and its tactics.
- Strange kerfuffle in Justice & ATF over this. Latest is testimony by the acting ATF director, on his own & with his own lawyer after being told by Justice they'd handle it.
It's the cover up that'll get them, if anything does.
If you wish to create a clamor for more gun-control, how many American lives is it worth? How many Mexican lives is it worth?
The level of mendacity from Obama and his Destroy America crowd cannot be believed until the legacy media decides to expose him.
So far the media are huddled under his wings and worshiping every lie he constructs as the word of a heroic man at war with The Rich.
The assumption is that he is our President, but he is our enemy planted into the Government to systematically sabotage every American strength to make way for the World Government.
How is the dollar doing today?
Missed one:
Little Zero will survive, but be so baldy damaged by it that, a year from now, it will be seen as being as big a nail in his coffin as ZeroCare, the debt, and Stimulus I and II.
It will also probably bring about the resignation of Eric "My People" Holder.
If it were George Bush, the MSM would be hounding him 24/7 on this.
Barack Obama could shoot his wife in the face inside the White House and it would not destroy him.
"She had it coming," they would say at TPM.
He's completely lawless and nothing he or his administration does will ever be held to account because Republicans are too PUSSY to do anything about his abject lawlessness.
If they're going to let him get away with the Libyan war ... they'll let him get away with everything.
Eh, the media's approach to this story will be, as always, to put "America's gun culture" on trial rather than deal with the facts of the case that implicate the Obama administration in criminal wrongdoing.
Eventually, White House will issue a "mistakes were made" statement to the press, some lower level functionary will take the fall and the media will move along, leaving the public with the impression that the whole brouhaha was caused by the NRA and some white gun nuts in Montana.
Oh, and Law and Order will run a special episode in which a racist white anti-immigration group (the hourmen?) funnels guns to Mexican drug cartels in order to build up anti-immigrant hysteria in America.
It's all very predictable.
Obama and his crew have blood on their hands. Quite literally. You'd think people would care more. Go figure?
>>Alex said... If it were George Bush, the MSM would be hounding him 24/7 on this.
If it were George Bush, the Democrats would have already introduced a Bill of Impeachment.
Jon Stewart (or was it Colbert?) had a clip on this a couple of weeks ago.
What this will destroy is the gun control movement.
Operation Gun Walker is gun control's Climategate.
I was going to say 4 for #2 reasons. So I went with the #2.
I'm assuming most people (like me) wont bother to find out either.. they're too busy following CA and DSK.
I don't think my local fishwrap, Phila Inquirer, has mentioned this story. It is too busy writing stories about the dastardly new Repub governor [aka Mr. Potter from A Wonderful Life] and how he has killed off so many vital, life-giving social programs. Like a mortgage forclosure program that "breaks even" according to the innumerate columnist, Monica Yant Kinney [a Notre Dame grad] yet it still needs a mere $10 Million a year from the taxpeyers.
When I see stuff like this, all I can think of is what small potatoes Watergate was. What has changed so that that was enough to bring Nixon down, but stuff like this gets a ho-hum?
At first I thought this was about bying guns in the U.S. for $500 and selling them in Mexico for $3,000+/-, and the proper question to ask would be "Where did the money go?" but now this is beginning to look almost like Iran-Contra in that there is a lot of it and not just grifting by low-level individuals.
So Obama's gun running false flag propaganda led to the murder of hundreds of Mexicans and American law enforcement personnel.
Big deal or no?
There are several ominous developments for the Administration. The ATF Director lawyered up and testified privately to Issa and Grassley's committee--no DOJ lawyers present. There are fingerprints from Justice suggesting cover-up. Stimulus dollars paid for a gun that killed a Border Patrol agent. There's more, but that's enough.
I can see the Rep. oppo ads now. "As unemployment climbs here at home, your stimulus dollars are buying guns for Mexican drug lords. Ask Attorney General Holder to explain."
My guess is that around Labor Day Holder will be spending more time with his family.
The media are still in love with Obama and will not focus on this terrible program.
I don't think this scandal will bring down Barack Obama, except at the ballot box in November 2012. And he would be gone regardless, thanks to his ineptitude relative to the economy.
But I think Holder is a goner, and perhaps Napolitano as well. I'm sure it reached higher than that, but the buck will stop at cabinet officers.
The other casualty will be gun control. Lefties dream of the day when only the criminal class and a handful of police officers have guns, but it isn't gonna happen.
To the extent that this scandal can be linked to swapping Mexican lives and the lives of American Border Patrol agents for increased gun control, it buries that little pipe dream -- as well it should.
You missed an option:
If you don't shut up about the scandal and help cover it up, it's because you're a racist.
This won't affect Obama politically because the MSM won't cover. They know how damaging this would be if it ever got out, so they will do their damnedest to cover it up. The one good thing is that this puts to rest all the Dem complaints about Iran-Contra and Watergate. Here we have a case in which a president and his attorney general sanctioned a cockamamie scheme which led to the deaths of two federal agents and possibly hundreds of Mexican police officers. So when your liberal friends bring up Watergate or Iran-Contra, just say "how many people were killed by Watergate and Iran-Contra?" Case closed libs.
No way it destroys Obama. I think it will get Holder, though.
Where's the soap opera angle is the question, if you want the public effect.
"It will also probably bring about the resignation of Eric "My People" Holder."
I concur though I opted for #2.
Anything happening out on the mighty Mendota today?
rhhardin said:
"Where's the soap opera angle is the question, if you want the public effect."
Well, there's the dead Border Patrol agent shot by a Mexican drug trafficker armed with a gun paid for by our "stimulus" dollars.
If this is completely true, then it is a plan of radical evil.
Did the US government willfully thrust thousands of powerful weapons into the hands of murderous cartels who have reduced Mexico to the state of a low-intensity civil war?
As a simple piece of self-destructive foolishness, this is up there with the policies of the last Tsar that allowed Stalin and co. a revolving door out of prisons.
But much more: it is consciously abetting murderous violence, and all for the sake of-- what?-- scoring a petty rationale for imposing gun restrictions at home?
At what price in human blood??
I was wondering when Ann would get to this. Thanks.
By all rights, it should at least take down AG Holder. And, maybe the President. As noted above, much, much worse than Watergate. And, Iran-Contra was always justified as the President exercising his Constitutional power as CIC and to conduct foreign policy - i.e. a separation of powers issue with Congress (arguably not that much different than Bush (43)'s FISA/NSA arguments).
This violates any number of laws, plus it lead to the deaths of those 2 U.S. agents, several hundred Mexican law enforcement agents, and possibly more than a thousand civilians. All apparently in order to justify stricter gun laws in this country.
There is a big difference between arming Mexican criminal gangs so that they can make our border less secure and protect their drug and human trafficking, and arming the Contras so that they could fight the Cuban backed Sandinista Marxists.
So, yes, this is the end of the left being able to get away with throwing either Watergate (where no one was even injured) and Iran-Contra against the Republicans.
But, will it take down the Administration? Likely not.
I won't know how big a scandal this is until I've seen the wine list. Anything over $100 a bottle, I say impeach him.
When one of these guns ends up killing a white kid in the United States, then Obama will be impeached.
Otherwise, the media will cover this up for him.
Did the US government willfully thrust thousands of powerful weapons into the hands of murderous cartels who have reduced Mexico to the state of a low-intensity civil war?
Keep in mind that most of the guns involved were apparently AK "variants", which means that they would only be considered "assault weapons" under Clinton's so-called "assault weapon ban", which could better be described as "banning dangerous looking weapons because they look dangerous, but really aren't any more dangerous than other semi-automatic weapons" act.
Real (full auto) assault weapons were not walking across the border for the very simple reason that they are very expensive here. Instead, the Mexicans are getting their fully automatic weapons (including a lot of real AKs) from central America, the former Warsaw Pact countries, the Middle East, and from their own police and soldiers.
Rather, those walked AK variants are semiautomatics, firing one bullet per trigger pull, and thus no different really than most of the other guns sold in this country these days (ok, they do tend to have larger magazines).
However, there were a smaller number of .50 caliber rifles involved too, and those I would consider to be more powerful weapons.
I cannot tell what will happen. What do I look like, Kreskin, over here?
But if the scandal doesn't destroy the administration, it should. Hillbuzz covers this aggressively. They're obsessed sometimes over there. Apparently $40,000,000 of stimulus for competitive grants and assistance and equipment to local law along the Southern border and High-Intensity drug trafficking areas with $10,000.000 specifically to be transferred to ATF for Project Gunrunner.
Fast and Furious, Gunrunner, Gunwalker, Operation Castaway, all the same thing.
Hillbuzz links to Ann Barnhardt. She's the Denver firebrand cattlewoman who made a splash by burning pages of the Koran. Barnhardt tells a long and convoluted tale over a number of posts that would make Beck turn green. Gunwalker: Laying it all out, Project Gunrunner Funded by "Stimulus", The Honduran Connection, Jumpsuit & Flip-Flops: The Eric Holder Story, and today, How Obama Will Execute Gun Control. I can be a difficult site. (Barnhardt starts each day out right … by copy/pasting the Lord's prayer) to scroll to the posts on Gunrunner you have to step over posts on the psychology of the homosexuality. Bitch. How would she like it if gays psychoanalyzed the mind of a female conservative religionist? Huh? Oh wait, never mind then.
It can be
Remember the outrage when the executive director of the NRA quoted Rep. John Dingell(D-MI)'s statement that the ATF were "jackbooted thugs" ?
That wasn't the half of it.
Bitch. How would she like it if gays psychoanalyzed the mind of a female conservative religionist? Huh? Oh wait, never mind then.
Yes, but a Christian women has to be crazy!
Gaydom is cool!
Before such a "scandal" --any scandal-- can seriously redound upon a president --any president-- it requires a bulldog media that won't let go of the story, and especially if followed by televised congressional hearings. Watergate was of course the prototype. I see none of that here.
I have a brother who is an ATF agent. Those Barrett 50 Cal's are whoppers! They are designed to take out cars with one shot (engine block busters). My brothers' Barret has a 7 mile bullet range, meaning it is lethal out to 7 miles even if you cannot see what you are shooting at. And they are semi-automatic. My brother can send one downrange and have the second round going downrange before the first one hits! Imagine that in the hands of a gang with no compunction against using it!
I find it so strange that liberals embrace such a mentality of 'by any means necessary' for what they espouse. You mean its ok to kill over a 1000 mexicans and a few Americans, just so you can get your gun control law passed that will not be followed by the criminals anyway?
So what else are they doing, because you know, if they will do this, there is no telling what else they will do?
"When I see stuff like this, all I can think of is what small potatoes Watergate was."
I know!
Someone explains Watergate and it's like, okay then, now tell me the part you left out, because obviously you've left out the bad stuff.
As for gun walker... I'm thinking that it's probably some variation of business as usual. The difference will be if, now that the cat's out of the bag, who will decide if it matters or not.
And it ought to matter, if for no other reason than the hypocrisy; of the political class that demanded heads for Iran/Contra, and every single last anti-gun person and group that used this for political advantage to infringe our right to bear arms.
I voted for Serious, but people won't pay attention.
Still, the Inspector General's report on this program is explosive. This program was massively unpopular among the ATF agents implementing it, who were convinced that they were allowing the murder of Mexican civilians.
I won't go so far as to say Obama will be brought down, but I don't think sacking the ATF head is enough. The problem isn't that the ATF screwed up -- the problem is that they were told to screw up, even though they didn't want to. To me, that says that somebody higher up has to go. I think ultimately Holder or someone very close to him has to go.
Those weren't eggs going into that omelette, they were huevos. Es un grande differencia.
Answer #2 is the correct one. The MSM is way too much in the tank for Obama to cover it, and besides, the Carl Bernsteins of the world have already FOUND their scandal: Rupert Murdoch's hacking scandal, which Bernstein in his article in the latest edition of Newsweek calls Murdoch's "Watergate."
"Fast and Furious" will go down the memory hole at the Ministry of Truth.
I have no respect for the ATF. Not after WACO. While, here? In the category of Ruby Ridge.
Maybe, it makes more of a difference if you're a gun owner? Or a guy?
How can you tell the difference, anyway? A regular tourist is more at risk from the police in Mexico. As I learned one day. When my son (who lives in San Diego), said a friend drove down there. He was stopped by cops. And, forced to go to an ATM machine. Where he removed the max the bank allowed: $400.
When he got back to San Diego he knew they would have killed him.
So, they're using guns in Mexico. And, the cartels also laundered money through politicians. Who are always looking for cash.
If it wasn't so dangerous, selling drugs would be a great way to make money. It needn't be under the table.
Once, our government went after Alcohol! Wow, did that prove wildly unpopular. So, we got back alcohol, and the same government freaks set up departments to go after drugs.
They don't go after the stuff that's not profitable.
And, ya know what? They can shoot each other. Kill each other. And, I don't care.
So, I voted by choosing #4.
A search of CBS, ABC, and NBC shows that only CBS is giving any coverage to the primary aspect of the scandal. Which is that ATF/Justice may have intentionally let known straw purchasers "walk" guns out of the country and that many of these guns were later used in drug related crimes.
MSNBC through Mike Isikoff seems to be actively participating in the cover-up.
When I see stuff like this, all I can think of is what small potatoes Watergate was. What has changed so that that was enough to bring Nixon down, but stuff like this gets a ho-hum?
You are closer than you know. Watergate was a coup by the FBI #2 man to bring down Nixon in revenge for passing him over for L Patrick Gray, an honest man.
The story is recapped here.
#5: "I made a rational choice!" -- Ann Althouse
a serious and administration ending scandal that will be buried becase no one in the MSM will dare challenge our half black (and assed) president
The man should be impeached, but congress hasnt got the balls because he is half black
Tell us again Professor why you voted for him? Why arent you on this story? IIRC this is the first post you have made on Obama's DOJ.
Am I in an alternate universe. Yes, this should be a big deal. Maybe Holder will get shitcanned but I think after the KSM fiasco it was apparent he would not be a part of a second term. At most, Holder resigns..probably not even that. Reagan was teflon because the MSM couldn't touch him. Obama is teflon because they protect him @ all costs.
We recently commented on a brain science study that said it is doubted that volition lies behind criminal acts. It is a new idea.
But we do know what lies behind criminal acts. It is a lack of enforcement of laws that punish the actors.
In Obama's case he is allowed to say he is doing the exact opposite of what he is actually doing. And the Media never calls his hand.
Sarah Palin is hounded to the last breath about TrooperGate myths.
But Obama breaks every law in sight and the Media whistles past the graveyard where he buries the bodies.
In an analysis of Obama's acts we see him poisoning the wells everywhere he can, for starters:
1)The relationship with Israel,
2)The relationship with Egypt,and
3)The Value of the Dollar that has to buy the weapons and supplies that the US Military exists upon, and
4)The Missile defense shield in Europe. and
5)The Coal generation of electrical power,and
6)The off shore oil drilling, and
7)American industries that build plants in right to work states,and
8) NASA
So when will the media speak the truth about this smiling leader who must be smiling at his power to con the media while he takes the USA to destruction?
I am absolutely disgusted. This is outrageous, and what makes it even worse is the great likelihood that he will never be held responsible for it.
I think it is early days. I remember that the Watergate affair unfolded rather slowly and the scope expanded as well [the famous cover-up] over time.
Yes, this is worse. But no, having less a sense of decency than Nixon, there will be no resignation.
Impeachment may be possible [House] but removal unlikely [Senate].
wv- etrind = chowed down on the orange skin
"Barack Lied, Mexicans Died."
this country's political class and its media have reached absolute bottom--I am genuinely ashamed of our leadership. They have absolutely failed us, and our sons and daughters and our grandchildren.
Please recall the outrage over Alberto Gonzales' firing of seven US attys. Please recall the outrage over Guantanamo; etc etc etc. Obama's DOJ is a disgrace, but it will forever be buried.
We have genuinely reached a low point in America, and Barack Obama and his running dogs in the media are the cause. Genuinely sad.
And you voted for him professor in your bullshit rational analysis mode.
Shame Shame Shame
The media is just like you, Ann - "rational" - when it comes to "The One":
Nothing can touch him.
But there's an election coming, and these things add up.
This is much worse than Iran Contra, but it will go nowhere for the obvious reasons.
Barack Obama could cut his wife's throat and do the same to her waiter friend when he came back for his sunglasses and he would still be President.
He could wrap his children in duct tape and leave them in the swamp and nothing would happen.
He could rape a maid in a fancy hotel and skate without even a perp walk.
That's how it works.
Don't be stupid.
This is really no different than the military, seeking to understand enemy ratlines, distribution channels, comms and code-breaking capacity --feeding them good information, even military supplies. Even if that emperils some grunts to save other ones by gaining good intel on the enemy.
Or police, intercepting a guy with 10 kilo bricks of heroin, allows the guy to proceed to distribute it so a whole gang of say - Jamaicans is caught. Thus eliminating the source and distribution channel so save lives.
Many self righteous, in a lather about an agent's death with the gun tracing effort...would also say:
Oh, yeah! TELL IT TO THE VICTIM's FAMILY (TM).
a. After the Nazis bombed Coventry.
b. After Private Gillispie was killed by IED materials we saw going into Iraq from Syria and passing through 3 Tal Afar safehouses we later JDAM'd killing 40 Islamoids inside.
c. The mothers of Lucius Jones and Del-Ron Shabazz, (fathers whereabouts or ID unknown) two wonderful hopes for the future who both unwillingly joined gangs or they would have been honor students..killed on heroin ODs as we tracked the dealer's network.
Obama lied, Mexicans died. Neither is news, neither is important. No one cares. Move along, be rational.
WV: mongs - don't even get me started on them.
WV2: iminesc - yooge!
KenK said...
Obama and his crew have blood on their hands. Quite literally. You'd think people would care more. Go figure?
===================
Every President since Cal Coolidge has blood on their hands. Bush had gobs of it. So did Truman and LBJ.
What's your point?
In this case the motive was to ID and track gun-running networks. And that means the network had to have guns to run. No different than finding heroin on a ship but letting it in so you can bust a drug ring, even if some junkies die. It is judged to serve the greater good, the lives lost more than made up by those spared if the ploy had never been undertaken.
The idea that the gun-running was to ultimately be used as reason to gun-ban is conjecture. It might be true, but it is still political conjecture.
As long as these guns are used to kill minorities, who gives a fuck.
"...a. After the Nazis bombed Coventry.
b. After Private Gillispie was killed by IED materials we saw going into Iraq from Syria and passing through 3 Tal Afar safehouses we later JDAM'd killing 40 Islamoids inside.
c. The mothers of Lucius Jones and Del-Ron Shabazz, (fathers whereabouts or ID unknown) two wonderful hopes for the future who both unwillingly joined gangs or they would have been honor students..killed on heroin ODs as we tracked the dealer's network..."
Difference:
a. The Brits and their allies won the war.
b. the islamoids lost
c. by your own admission they bagged the dealers
We spent $10 million in stimulus money and what did we get?
The Onion had it right more than 2 years ago.
ICYMI, 'Ann Althouse a Rube? Nah, Robert Stacy McCain's Just Trolling for Traffic'.
Here are five claims, at least three of which I believe are true:
1) Obama tried to get congress to ban particular kinds of weapons, on the basis that they might be used by gangs.
2) Congress refused.
3) Obama authorized the sale of these weapons to gangs.
4) The weapons were used to commit murders in the USA.
5) Obama's intention was to use (4) as a way of pressuring congress to enact the ban that they had previously refused to enact.
I am not saying that all of these claims are true. However, if they are all true, then Obama was acting as an accessory to murder for political gain.
Nixon resigned under threat of impeachment for much less. Therefore, I think it is time for an investigation to see how many of the as yet unproven claims are true.
Too many sniveling sycophants in the press for this to destroy him, although it should more than Watergate destroyed Nixon. People were killed by these guns, including a U.S. border agent.
Having filed Chapter 666 moral bankruptcy, the left, including the press, will just smile and turn away. Soaking working Americans to pay for lazy, union public employees and other miscreants is much more important and of much greater moral urgency.
edutcher wrote: It will also probably bring about the resignation of Eric "My People" Holder.
As it should, for at least that reason.
@Trooper: There's a guy out here who runs a local hunter safety course I'm sitting through with my son. He's a crusty older Brooklynite with a funny edge. Kinda how I image you-without the gun angle of course.
In this case the motive was to ID and track gun-running networks. And that means the network had to have guns to run. No different than finding heroin on a ship but letting it in so you can bust a drug ring, even if some junkies die. It is judged to serve the greater good, the lives lost more than made up by those spared if the ploy had never been undertaken.
Except that apparently they had no mechanism in place to track the guns after they walked out of the door, and then across the border.
So, yes, they may have intended to track guns, but they didn't, or at least not until the Mexican government asked them to do so at crime scenes in Mexico. Remember all those guns that were supposedly tracked back to U.S. sales? It appears that approximately 1/4 of those were from this project.
And, while maybe you need to break a couple of eggs to make an omelet, I think that the sort of collateral damage here is unacceptable (and, yes, illegal). Apparently over a thousand civilians, hundreds of Mexican cops and military, and a couple of U.S. agents. For what?
Is it a coincidence that the same government that feels up grandmas with cancer at airports and makes them take of their Depends, also sells guns to Mexican narco-terrorists who use said guns to kill American law enforcement officers?
Obama is going down.
If you do not know who Judicial Watch is, find out. They are doing the heavy lifting along with a DailyCaller reporter Matthew Boyle.
Right now, they have no less than 5-6 major investigations, using FOIA (Kagan on lying on her role in Obamacare, Fast & Furious, Acorn, Pigford II, DOJ on AZ and TX and more) Issa/Grassley leading the way but, several other committee's also.
What they have identified, with the research work of G Beck, A Breitbart and other bloggers is a pattern of behavior of obstruction, undermining, TARP funds misused, lying to congressional committees, and administrative rule circumventing congress and judiciary.
Right now, you are seeing the Breitbart, drip/drip/drip with a story a day. Now that insiders are turning on them (after being fired or threatened) they have even more specific information to make their FOIA's really targeted and specific.
Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
Addendum to my earlier: that $100-a-bottle figure was taking into account that they must have been pretty deep into the sixth bottle by the time they came up with that gun-selling scheme.
PS, Obama's lack of ethics or integrity is who they make dead lawyer jokes about.
Wow, just when you think C4 can't become any more ridiculous...
The first question to ask is still: "Where did the money go?"
My impression is that the plan was just to get US traceable guns found at the scene of Mexican crimes, not to trace the people involved.
That's then used to show that those guns have to be banned in the US.
I don't really have a problem with selling some guns to the bad guys in order to track where those guns go (in this case, back to the US to be used in drug crimes), at least not in principle.
I don't really have a problem with paying gang members to be part of anti-gang initiatives, either.
I do have a problem with the cover-ups and with the spin and finding out what political use the consequences have been put to.
What I would like is if just once someone would simply say, "It seemed like a good idea at the time for these reasons, it had/didn't have the results we hoped for for these reasons."
What all the denial does is make everyone sound like they don't have a clue and no one was in charge and no one was accountable and no one was even bothering to track results.
And then they ask us for more money.
1) Obama tried to get congress to ban particular kinds of weapons, on the basis that they might be used by gangs.
2) Congress refused.
3) Obama authorized the sale of these weapons to gangs.
4) The weapons were used to commit murders in the USA.
5) Obama's intention was to use (4) as a way of pressuring congress to enact the ban that they had previously refused to enact.
First, I don't know if you can actually say "Obama" here. Yes, it appears somewhat likely that his AG and Sec. of HLS were at least in the know, if not involved. But was the President briefed? My guess is not. And, if he were, I don't see being able to prove it.
The murders were almost entirely in Mexico, though there is emerging evidence that some have been used in crimes here. But the intent was always, apparently, to track them to the Mexican crime syndicates - without bothering to figure out how to actually accomplish that.
Nevertheless, I think that evidence is starting to emerge that the purpose of this did include changing the laws here in the U.S.
What appears to have been going on, was that the gun runners were encouraged to take as many guns as they could, and then ship them south. Then, when they showed up at Mexican crime scenes, they had U.S. markings, and so the Mexican officials asked the U.S. to track them.
At that point, the U.S. govt. started pushing the meme that some 70% of the guns coming into Mexico came from the U.S. Turns out to be a bogus statistic, though we are still seeing it over a year later. Turns out that the real statistic is that the U.S. govt. was able to trace 70% of the guns requested by the Mexican govt., but the later wasn't asking our govt. to trace guns that did not have U.S. gun markings.
And, it looks like 1/4 of those guns that were traced happened to be in the set of those sent south by our govt. in the first place.
It just plain looks suspicious that such a large percentage of those guns that the Administration was basing its gun control case on were allowed to illegally cross our borders with their approval.
Yet, I have a hard time believing that the Obama Administration in general, and the Holder DoJ in particular, actually believed that they could get away with this, and that there would not be a lot of consequential damage as a result.
Right now, they have no less than 5-6 major investigations, using FOIA (Kagan on lying on her role in Obamacare, Fast & Furious, Acorn, Pigford II, DOJ on AZ and TX and more) Issa/Grassley leading the way but, several other committee's also.
There is the saying that elections have consequences, and this is one of the consequences of the last election that gave the House back to the Republicans.
Prior to that, the Dems in Congress were squelching the investigations (as well as those of their (mostly Black) members of Congress), and Holder's DoJ was leading the stone walling, instead of the charge.
In my last post, I suggested that President Obama likely did not know what was really going with operation Fast and Furious. But he did seem to bring Chicago style politics into the federal government, at least at the very top, where pay-to-play and crony capitalism is now rampant.
What he seems to not understand is that the American people do not believe that this is the way that government should be run. Bribes shouldn't affect the outcomes of government decisions, and the government shouldn't be paying off its friends with money from the American public.
Giving Obama the benefit of the doubt, I think that there is a possibility that he doesn't, or at least didn't realize that that is not how government works throughout most of the rest of the country, or at least not with the level of corruption he learned to live with and exploit while he was in Chicago.
"Obama's Department of Justice has purposefully armed narco-terrorist drug cartels that have been accused of bombings, ambushes, mass murders, public executions, and the assassination of police, politicians, and civic leaders."
Team Obama supplied automatic weapons to terrorists operating inside of Mexico. And they killed a lot of people. Smart Diplomacy? Its an act of terrorism. Its casus belli. Its an invitation to appear before the ICC.
Yet, I have a hard time believing that the Obama Administration in general, and the Holder DoJ in particular, actually believed that they could get away with this, and that there would not be a lot of consequential damage as a result.
Whether you believe it or not, the fact is that so far they are getting away with it.
And if the intrepid, impartial, damn-the-torpedoes reporters and editors of our mainstream news media have their way, the bastards will continue to get away with it.
You say, "American guns have killed people in Mexico."
I hear, if lots of people said anything at all, they'd say: "Good."
Need to say more.
Maybe, Obama can use as his excuse "this is better than building a wall."
Maybe, he'll claim he was channeling Reagan? And, this was his "Contra." And, he left out Iran?
Is Mexico running short of drug runners?
If Obama gets tied to this, it is an impeachable offense for sure. But so far I've seen nothing to tie him to it and I'm quite sure the MSM isn't trying too hard to connect those last dots (if they even can be connected).
DADvocate said...
Having filed Chapter 666 moral bankruptcy, the left, including the press, will just smile and turn away. Soaking working Americans to pay for lazy, union public employees and other miscreants is much more important and of much greater moral urgency.
"Chapter 666 moral bankruptcy"?
I like that.
I don't know if you can actually say "Obama" here.
Just the same as we could never get Al Capone for any of the murders his gang committed.
Woah Woah Woah. Cut the impeachment talk. You do realize that Joe "I only had a mild stroke" Biden is the sitting VP, right?
The cost to Obama is a day where the sycophants in the media print a love piece.
Heck, he went to visit the Queen. Tom Hanks was there, too. About 200 special guests. And, then, the photo op goes to his OOOPS.
He's toasting the queen. When the band began playing "her song." Everyone in the room stood up. Obama kept on toasting.
The queen turned to him. And, with a look ... not of scorn ... but just "something." And, he understood he'd never recover.
For people who tune in TV every day ... Every day there's something new to laugh at.
Yes. Obama is aware that his numbers are tanking. He loved it when it happened to Dubya. Now? Not so much.
Will the stupid party capitalize on the unhappiness that now fills so many democratic hearts?
No.
They haven't figured out yet, how to dance, "popular."
Popular is an important ingredient in getting elected.
Most politicians do it better than obama. Who can't even speak without being surrounded by greek columns ... and teleprompters.
And, if you want a sign?
Once, his presidential seal fell off his podium.
And, just recently, in Phily, his presidential seal flew off his car.
You never saw the Secret Service beating the bushes on the I-95. But there was a hunt that night for the missing Seal.
Yeah. It was found. But it's the sort of news the White House press corp is happy to bury.
WHY?
It would have provided better spread than dead Mexicans.
Team Obama supplied automatic weapons to terrorists operating inside of Mexico. And they killed a lot of people. Smart Diplomacy? Its an act of terrorism. Its casus belli. Its an invitation to appear before the ICC.
I have seen no evidence yet that fully automatic weapons were involved. My understanding was that it was mostly AK "variants" (semiautomatic AK type rifles) with some .50 caliber long range rifles thrown in.
The basic problem is that our gun laws have prohibited the importation or manufacture of fully automatic weapons, except for law enforcement and military use, for 25 years now. So, the price for automatic weapons in this country has gone up significantly - an automatic weapon costing $1,000 when the law went into affect in 1986 now costs maybe $10,000 in this country.
The reality is just the opposite of what the Administration would like us to believe - fully automatic weapons tend to move north across our border, while the semiautomatics move south. This is because there are a lot of fully automatic weapons on the world market, including the middle east, former soviet block, Central America, and in the case of Mexico, from Mexican police and military. So, Mexican criminals pick up fully automatic weapons from these other sources for a couple of hundred dollars a gun, ship them north into the U.S., and get thousands of dollars for each of them.
Note also that shipping guns into the U.S. may be both safer and more lucrative than shipping illegal aliens here. Yes, they can't walk themselves across the border, but the mark up is higher and the goods are much smaller.
It should be serious enough to knock Obama and his appointees out of the running for 2012. It won't because journalists and mainsream media will cover for them by burying the story.
So what?
(666 is a building on 5th Avenue. I worked there in my yoot.) Believe me, there's no biblical experiences involved in being a secretary.
Just fast legs. And, the ability to carry out file cabinets ahead of the arrival of the police.
It should be a major 'impeachment or shaming out of office' scandal; it probably won't be. Major media is doing everything it can to ignore or downplay it(hell, if it wasn't for this here innernets, how many people would actually know about it?) Unless Holder and/or Breuer decide they don't want to take the falls, they'll cover for Obama. And the big 'we must ban guns for public safety' people don't care how many people wind up dead if it helps them get Obama to pass some kind of gun ban/restriction laws. Remember,
The couple reportedly were meeting with press secretary, Jay Carney, when, according to Sarah Brady, the President came in. She said the President told her he wanted to talk about gun control and "fill us in that it was very much on his agenda."
She went on to say Obama told her, "I just want you to know that we are working on it. We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar."
http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=9614
Besides Holder & Co., the heads of FBI and DEA- both agencies involved in this- ought to be under oath testifying, too. Don't know if they will be.
Oh, and let's not forget the Houston ATF office is involved, too:
"A notable trend is that Houston seems to be a main purchasing location for people intending to traffic guns to Mexico. A majority of guns recovered in Mexico originated in Houston, as visualized by the red lines that converge on the city. Of those purchased in Houston, a strong majority were Bushmaster .223 rifles and FN Herstal Five-Seven pistols."
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/07/thank-you-houston-chronicle-at-last.html
If it were George Bush, the Democrats would have already introduced a Bill of Impeachment.
Whattayamean? Kookcinich introduced one of those every week or so.
My impression is that the plan was just to get US traceable guns found at the scene of Mexican crimes, not to trace the people involved.
That's then used to show that those guns have to be banned in the US.
Yes, but-
You do not need to establish a super-secret high end, highly financed task force to do that-
Hell, we've been doing it....forever.
It's called ....wait for it...."Tracing the serial number".
Usually done with all the cumbersomeness of sitting at a desk in front of a computer.
My point is, that is just how utterly useless this operation was in a practical law enforcement sense-
criminal asshattery
check out the articles from a couple of months ago regarding Sara Brady: The couple reportedly were meeting with press secretary, Jay Carney, when, according to Sarah Brady, the President came in. She said the President told her he wanted to talk about gun control and "fill us in that it was very much on his agenda."
She went on to say Obama told her, "I just want you to know that we are working on it. We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar."
The statement reinforces an article in the Huffington Post describing how the administration is exploring ways to bypass Congress and enact gun control through executive action.
My foggy memory of Iran-Contra was that arms were moved to the Contras partly because Reagan supported Contra activities.
So, if the analogy holds, the administration moved arms to the drug cartels...because it supports their activities.
The question no one seems to ask is, "Is the administration/Obama under the control of the Mexican drug cartels"?
Or, put another way, "How much Mexican drug money found its way to the Obama campaign"?
MSM will. not. touch. this.
Cedarford said...
"In this case the motive was to ID and track gun-running networks. ..."
Let's say the point was to track guns to straw purchasers. This fails the laugh test, since the ATF arranged the purchases, threatened dealers not to refuse the transactions, and ordered agents not to arrest but to allow the straw purchasers across the border.
Let's say the point was to track straw purchasers back to cartels. If the guns are not tracked between the time that the straw purchaser crosses the border and the time the guns are recovered at a crime scene, there is no chain of custody to link the straw purchase with the crime -- they could be separated by random unrelated transactions within Mexico. So it fails the test of producing any evidence for prosecuting additional charges against the straw purchasers.
Fine; let's say the point is to track guns back to cartels. To what possible end? The guns sold were ordinary consumer-grade guns, not illegal full-auto models, therefore the only crime was the (ATF-arranged) straw purchase. The cartel recipients were already known criminals and FBI informants; it is unclear, but they possibly were buying the weapons with federal "stimulus" dollars! So what was supposed to be learned from the whole affair?
What you call conjecture, we call simply noticing the curious incident of the dog during the night-time.
Why isn't the Mexican government raising hell?
Did Obama threaten to drive down the price of oil if they complained?
Wouldn't a bloody border area stiffen opposition to gun control in border states? Why didn't the Administration realize that scared people want to be able to defend themselves?
Holder Lied: DOJ News Release Shows Obama Admin Approved ATF Mexico Weapons Smuggling
Slowly but surely the story is unwinding and "The Culture Of Corruption"(tm) democrats are becoming ensnared. With a year and a half to go before the election, time is not on barrys side, tsk.
Never under estimate the combined stupidity and hubris if Obama and Holder.
Sure the MSM will not lead the way, but at some point they will have to follow.
Why is no one talking about the elephant in the room? The administration concocted a bogus enforcement plan with the express purpose of funneling arms to the drug cartels. That the cartels needed the arms is demonstrated by the fact that they're actively using them against the Mexican govt. and us.
The administration is repaying a debt to the druggies (and debts to drug lords MUST be repaid). So how much drug money found its way into the Obama campaign? I seem to recall that the Obama campaign's funding tactics were less than transparent.
As for the MSM, isn't it possible that they've been made an offer they can't refuse? Something like periodic payments if they go along; slaughter of their staff if they don't? I can't imagine that ALL the media types are abject cowards when it comes to reporting the truth; I can imagine that they'd ALL like to continue breathing.
Why isn't the Mexican gov't hollering? Probably because most of the Mex officials have been bought off by the druggies and their "war against the drug lords" is for appearances only.
As for boosting Obama's push for tighter gun control; that was only a side benefit.
Face it folks, the Mexican drug disease has crossed the border and spread to DC. Occam's razor applies.
Did US sell directly to cartels or did we sell to legit dealers in Mexico to see if guns would find their way to cartels? This isn't a hypothetical. I can't tell based on the linked post.
If it's the former, this is a serious, serious scandal. If it's the latter, not so much.
If the Republican candidates make it a big issue, the press won't be able to ignore it. They will try to until then.
You left out an option:
Very Serious. The MSM will ignore it. Obama will use the guns to push for gun control & UN treaty on gun trafficing.
I continue to think … that there will be very little choice but to impeach him.
I agree that Obama is a terrible President but an impeachment is unlikely. In fact, if I had to place a bet on it I would have to put my money on Obama being re-elected handily in 2012.
the Tampa operation proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that "Project Gunwalker" was a national strategy, not a Phoenix aberration. The "major media" has been slow to understand this.
The MSM “understands” but it’s Obama’s Administration and thus must be protected at all cost. If it becomes necessary, the MSM will paint all this as sting operations gone awry. After all, on the surface this isn’t much different than an ordinary drug sting. If needed, Melson will be thoroughly demonized; the only reason that hasn’t already happened is that the scandal is still below the public’s consciousness and the Whitehouse doesn’t want to call unnecessary attention to the mess.
… if it blows up, it'll be the administration shooting themselves in the foot with the cover up that does it.
Smart comment.
Little Zero will survive, but be so badly damaged by it that, a year from now, it will be seen as being as big a nail in his coffin as ZeroCare, the debt, and Stimulus I and II. It will also probably bring about the resignation of Eric "My People" Holder.
Wishful thinking.
Republicans are too PUSSY to do anything about his abject lawlessness.
Unfair. Does the commentor really believe that Boehner wouldn’t love to serve Obama’s balls up on a platter? Boehner and the rest will do whatever the political reality will allow him to do.
You'd think people would care more.
To a great extent the “people” only know what the MSM chooses to allow them to know. Exceptions happen occasionally, but Gungate isn’t going to be one of those exceptions.
What this will destroy is the gun control movement.
Wishful thinking.
What has changed so that that was enough to bring Nixon down, but stuff like this gets a ho-hum?
Is the commentor aware that Nixon was a Republican? Changed? Nothing has changed.
So Obama's gun running false flag propaganda led to the murder of hundreds of Mexicans and American law enforcement personnel. Big deal or no?
A big deal to me and a big deal to the commentor; a big deal to those who control the flow of info not so much.
The media are still in love with Obama and will not focus on this terrible program.
Semi-smart, except for “still,” which implies that at some future date the MSM will fall out of love. File under semi-wishful thinking.
But I think Holder is a goner, and perhaps Napolitano as well.
Dream on.
The one good thing is that this puts to rest all the Dem complaints about Iran-Contra and Watergate.
Ha ha ha ha. Snort. Giggle.
This violates any number of laws …
Is the commentor a lawyer? I’m waiting for any reputable conservative-minded lawyer blogger to claim that laws have been violated. I’m not holding my breath, though.
When one of these guns ends up killing a white kid in the United States, then Obama will be impeached. Otherwise, the media will cover this up for him.
He he he.
And you voted for him professor in your bullshit rational analysis mode.
Doesn’t the commentor know that Althouse is an Independent? Snicker.
This is really no different than the military … or police … eliminating the source and distribution channel to save lives.
If need be this will be one of the MSM memes.
My impression is that the plan was just to get US traceable guns found at the scene … to show that those guns have to be banned in the US.
Bingo.
I have a hard time believing that the Obama Administration in general, and the Holder DoJ in particular, actually believed that they could get away with this.
Haw haw haw haw. Slapping knee in hilarity.
I was hoping for a response that went something like:
So serious it should destroy Obama a la Watergate, but won't because the press would rather cover for him than do their jobs properly.
Maybe it was too long though.
This is a story that needs to be told so people understand what happened. Yes, it will definitely hurt Obama (although I agree it is not a fatal blow by itself).
Using the handy dandy wayback machine the earliest mention of "Project Gunrunner" on the atf.gov front page I found was Jan 2008. I found news stories going back to 2006 mentioning it as well. This predates the 2009 stimulus funding for "Project Gunrunner". I think what happened is the long standing, and by all accounts working, "Operation Gunrunner" morphed into "Operation Gunwalker" by whoever ordered agents and dealers to let the guns walk. Morally bankrupt, stupid, or sinister? You decide. I'm voting for morally bankrupt and sinister.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080131224113/http://www.atf.gov/
Writ Small: BATFE told gun shops to sell to straw dealers, then actually watched them smuggle the arms across the border. Thousands of them.
And yes, it's on the record that the shops called their local ATF guys and told them "This guy is a crook" and were told "Make the sales anyway, we're watching it." When this first started blowing up, ATF accused the shops of 'making illegal sales', problem was some of the shops had had their lawyers contact ATF about it when this started and could document being told to make the sales.
I am waiting to see if the Mexican government takes this to the UN (sovereignty breech) or to the ICC or both.
My bet: they will. It will play well to the Mexican public (much upside) and the rest of the world already sneers at our gutless President; he will get little or no cover there.
So what then with the LSM? Can't ignore it then.
Press will try to kill this. Hopefully the alt media will continue to pursue.
(sarcasm warning)I was heartened to see that the lead news story on some MSM outlet last night (didn't catch which network) was the burgeoning News of the World scandal. Bringing Rupert Murdoch down is much more important than covering icky guns. Besides, Holder MEANS well in the long run.(/sarcasm over)
But man. If this happened under Bush what a shitstorm would be blowing right now. Seriously, if ANY public official authorized the release of guns to criminals (with the obvious result of people being killed), those officials need to be tried in court and sent to jail. I don't care who it was, whether a low level ATF administrator or Eric Holder. This is awful.
What's Breitbart doing on this?
Bruce Hayden, the problem with your comment is that the only fully automatic weapons that are highly valuable are in fact the legal, registered ones. Illegal, smuggled, unregistered fully automatic weapons moving among criminals in the US are not nearly as valuable. Yes, more so than in the third world where they are more common, but not as highly valuable as legal ones.
Cedarford writes: "The idea that the gun-running was to ultimately be used as reason to gun-ban is conjecture. It might be true, but it is still political conjecture."
No, its not conjecture. Its a valid inference made from the rejoicing among ATF management when traced guns were found at crime scenes in Mexico. These comments appear in the emails cited in the House committee staff report that has been released. These were finds that had no evidentiary value - ie., they did not add any evidence regarding the identity of the smuggling networks asserted as the target of the operation.
Its a very well-supported inference that the appearance of these traced guns served a political goal - that of supporting the administration's dishonest claims regarding the source of Mexican cartel arms.
Bruce Hayden, the problem with your comment is that the only fully automatic weapons that are highly valuable are in fact the legal, registered ones. Illegal, smuggled, unregistered fully automatic weapons moving among criminals in the US are not nearly as valuable. Yes, more so than in the third world where they are more common, but not as highly valuable as legal ones.
Agreed - but that doesn't negate my point. Automatic weapons are flowing north into this country, not south out of it. The legal fully automatic weapons in this country just cost way too much and have serious licensing issues to be involved in this gun walking scandal.
From another blog:
The official explanation is that the federal government used stimulus funding to buy guns from Arizona gun shops for known criminals to funnel to Mexican drug cartels. As I said, that's the official explanation: As soon as your head stops spinning, we'll resume the narrative. Supposedly, United States taxpayers were picking up the tab for Mexican drug lords' weaponry in order that the ATF could identify high-up gun-traffickers. But, as it turns out, these high-up gun-traffickers were already known to other agencies – FBI, DEA and other big-spending acronyms in the great fetid ooze of federal alphabet soup in which this republic is drowning. And, indeed, some of those high-ups are said to have been paid informants for those various federal agencies. So, in case you're wondering why Obama's second annual Recovery Summer is a wee bit sluggish at your end, relax: Stimulus dollars went to fund one federal agency to buy guns for the paid informants of another federal agency to funnel to foreign criminals in order that the first federal agency might identify the paid informants of the second federal agency.
Meanwhile, what did the drug cartels, the recipients of the guns, do with them? Well, they used them to kill at least one member of a third federal agency: Brian Terry of the United States Border Patrol. If that doesn't bother you, well, they also killed not insignificant numbers of Mexican civilians.
If, by this stage, you're wondering why U.S. stimulus dollars are being used to stimulate the Mexican coffin industry, consider the dark suspicion of many American gun owners – that the real reason the feds embarked on this murderous scheme was to plant the evidence that the increasing lawlessness on the southern border is the fault of the gun industry and the Second Amendment, and thereby advance its ideological agenda of ever greater gun control.
This scheme has resulted in death to both American and Mexican citizens and was hatched as an assault on the Second Amendment. Two failures: It should result in very serious punishment for those in the Obama administration who designed and implemented it. Two failures: A failure to "support and defend the Constitution" (see oath of office for Federal officials: http://www.opm.gov/constitution_initiative/oath.asp) and failure to protect US citizens from harm. The National Rifle Association has a significant article titled "Fast & Fraudulent" in the most recent issue of their monthly magazine. Article can be found here: http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/10664/fast-fraudulent/
One jujitsu type argument that helps gun rights is to note that selling guns to cartels does not kill people, cartels kill people. The cartels will get guns one way or another.
Say it LOUD - Guns don't kill people, people kill people, people.
Don't drink the impeachment Kool-Aide.
"VOTE'IM OUT!"
This will come out. It may take years but it will come out. What will help this come out is that so far at least one of those Barrett .50 cals brought down a Mexican government helo. Luckily the helo made a forced landing and the crew and passengers survived.
Still, the Mexicans are getting royally pissed, as they should be. They will get more pissedd as more Mexican government officials get blown away.
Folks, this is an act of war.
"Well, they used them to kill at least one member of a third federal agency: Brian Terry of the United States Border Patrol."
I have yet to see a news agency report such a thing. The reports have invariably been that two of the guns ATF was supposedly watching were found "near" (whatever that means) the site of Agent Terry's death. No word on whether these two guns were even functional at the time. If the actual murder weapon was recovered, that has yet to be publicly reported.
Bruce Hayden: I have seen no evidence yet that fully automatic weapons were involved. My understanding was that it was mostly AK "variants" (semiautomatic AK type rifles) with some .50 caliber long range rifles thrown in.
My bad. I should have said semi-automatic. But the point remains that they were military-grade assault rifles.
I find full auto to be a waste of ammo anyway. Too many shooters just spray and pray, while a disciplined semi-auto shooter is much more lethal.
Fen: I should have said semi-automatic. But the point remains that they were military-grade assault rifles.
If they're semi-automatic, by definition they're not military-grade assault rifles. Words and phrases really do have meaning, and assault rifle has a particular one that includes "fully-automatic."
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