April 10, 2011

"Had this been George Bush or almost any other President or Presidential aspirant, they would never have been allowed to attain office, or would have been thrown out of office very quickly."

"For some reason, the press protects President Obama beyond anything or anyone I have ever seen. What they don't realize is that if he was not born in the United States, they would have uncovered the greatest 'scam' in the history of our country. In other words, they would become the hottest writer since Watergate, or beyond."

Donald Trump makes a criticism of the press that is far more important than the "birther" issue itself.

ADDED: The New Yorker has a big profile of Trump:
The patented Trump palaver, a gaseous blather of “fantastic”s and “amazing”s and “terrific”s and “incredible”s and various synonyms for “biggest,” is an indispensable ingredient of the name brand.
Oh, bullshit. Every time I listen to him he's calling everything "yooge."

From the description of his apartment:
“This is the greatest apartment ever built. There’s never been anything like it. There’s no apartment like this anywhere. It was harder to build this apartment than the rest of the building. A lot of it I did just to see if it could be done. All the very wealthy people who think they know great apartments come here and they say, ‘Donald, forget it. This is the greatest.’ ” Very few touches suggested that real people actually lived there—where was it, exactly, that Trump sat around in his boxers, eating roast-beef sandwiches, channel surfing, and scratching where it itched?

232 comments:

1 – 200 of 232   Newer›   Newest»
TMink said...

His criticism of the press is on target. But the birtherism occludes his point.

President Obama's birth certificate is being hidden because his mom put [W] in the race section. That is more than slightly problematic for the narrative.

Trey

Mr. D said...

Yep. The larger point is a very good one. When you compare the amount of scrutiny that Obama got to what other candidates typically receive, it's almost astonishing.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

"...they would become the hottest writer since Watergate..."

The Donald throws the bone, is there no writer on the planet to pick it up?

Not one?

Almost Ali said...

I'm starting to think there's something to this birther stuff.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

That's an interesting theory, Trey, and highly plausible. I hadn't heard that one.

AllenS said...

What's astonishing, is the fact that so many Americans bought into this obama shit in the first place.

Ut said...

"Donald Trump makes a criticism of the press that is far more important than the "birther" issue itself."

What exactly is that criticism?

Ut said...

"President Obama's birth certificate is being hidden because his mom put [W] in the race section."

That's hardly a plausible reason. Obama could deflect that in about 30 seconds by saying "well, it was a different time and my mom probably thought she was helping me."

That would be the end of it because nobody cares that he's white (or black ... depending on your perspective).

What we care about is that he's red.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Great. Criticism of the press from someone who either can't read a simple document or who can't stop himself from lying about it.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I too have trouble reading a simple document that no one will let me see.

Ut said...

"Criticism of the press from someone who either can't read a simple document ..."

He read it. Saw it for what it is ... a contemporary recreation of a birth certificate and not the original birth certificate.

That contemporaneous birth certificate would be laughed out of court. It's not admissable evidence because a copy is not admissible in the presence of the original.

We want to see Barack Hussein Obama's original long-form birth certificate and as Americans we have a fucking right to see it if he wants to be our President.

It's that simple, Ritmo. Everybody who isn't in the tank for Hussein can see the simple logic in that very simple request.

traditionalguy said...

The trump line is, "Open your eyes, Gail". How long will the Press's attitude Obama that is our guardian President whom the press must guard continue....when will people open their eyes???

shoutingthomas said...

Wouldn't it be great if Trump actually got the nomination?

I don't know if I'd vote for him, but I'd enjoy watching this character right out of "The Great Gatsby" campaign.

The demands of the modern campaign foist one neutral, boring character after another on us. None of the serious candidates say anything, and they are bland products of a team of advisers.

Not Trump. So, casting aside whether or not I agree with him about anything, I'd get a kick out of seeing him go mano o mano with that nondescript nothing that is Obama.

But, Trump's got to do something about that combover. That do ain't gonna cut it.

Ut said...

"In other words, they would become the hottest writer since Watergate, or beyond."

Back to the original point of this post.

In fact, a reporter would not become the hottest writer since Watergate.

They'd become unemployed. Layers and layers of editors would squash such a story and any writer who submitted it would be relegated to writing business reviews of local flooring companies for the upcoming Spring Cleanup special section.

Editors exist to prevent pesky reporters from altering the Democrat Party narrative.

That's why it's so cheap to buy the press. You don't have to buy every reporter ... just the editors.

Jay said...

Had this been George Bush or almost any other President or Presidential aspirant,

Did he mean this?

"I know some of these big guys, they're all still driving their big SUVs. You know, they got their big monster trucks and everything. . . . If you're complaining about the price of gas and you're only getting eight miles a gallon — (laughter) . . . "
... "So, like I said, if you're getting eight miles a gallon you may want to think about a trade-in. You can get a great deal."



Because of course The Zero cruises along in a caravan of SUV's getting 8MPG...

Jay said...

You may have a big family, but it's probably not that big, so... How many you have, ten kids, you say? Ten kids? Well, you definitely need a hybrid van, then.

I would love for Obama to tell us which model of "hybrid van" he was referring to...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Keep on with your blindness, hate and ignorance. I understand that these things keep you warm at night. They're what you live for.

The fact that you assume that these fanatical obsessions are worth pursuing and won't blow up in your paranoid faces, exposing your lunatic fringe for what it is, is sad -- although apparently necessary and perhaps ultimately a good thing.

Keep the faith, birthers. Push your theory all the way to Iowa Loony-Fest 2012, where the real loonies get weeded out from the fake loonies.

Ut said...

"... when will people open their eyes???"

They can't.

The hardest thing for a human being to do is to admit that they were so easily hoodwinked.

Look, it's just human nature. It's very embarrassing to admit ... even to yourself ... that you were had.

So it won't. ever. happen.

The easiest thing for people to do at this point is to simply wait it out until 2012 and then we'll be rid of this fucking moron.

And we won't allow ourselves to be so easily fooled by the Democrat Party in the future.

See, the thing is ... people are going to remember it was Democrats who did this to us. They might never admit out loud or to their friends that they were conned ... but they're going to fucking remember it for a long, long time.

TWM said...

I'm sure Barry was born in the USA. I'm also sure Oprah is not dating Gayle.

Jay said...


The fact that you assume that these fanatical obsessions are worth pursuing and won't blow up in your paranoid faces,


I love the fact you actually believe that interview means the issue has "blown up" in anyone's face.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

We should thank Ann Althouse for keeping the Glenn Beck contingent of the internet "well informed" -- at least by their standards. She's doing a service to disaffected right-wing lunatic conspiracy theorists across the country, who will otherwise have to rely on FOX broadcasts of mere smear and innuendo, rather than outright chalkboard antics outlining the whole damn process of psychosis and alternative reality.

Glenn Beck's firing apparently bodes well for Ms. Althouse as she can now pick up the slack from her former competitor.

Ut said...

"In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate ..."

What the campaign released was a digitally scanned image of a contemporaneously produced short-form "birth certificate" produced by current Hawaiian state officials who - it just so happens - belong to the Democrat Party.

This contemporaneously produced document was made at Obama's request and only included minimal information that Obama would agree to release.

It could very well be forged, since we haven't seen the original document to compare the original to the contemporaneous version. It might not be forged. But it might be forged - just like the Bush memos were forged by Dan Rather and CBS producers leading to his firing. People forge documents all the time. Important people forge documents to effect presidential elections.

The Obama campaign did not, and is currently refusing to, release his original long-form birth certificate.

Americans have a right to see that document if Barack Hussein Obama would like to qualify to run for President. Because the Constitution says we have that right.

mesquito said...

I the The Donald's teevee contracts are coming up for renewal soon. We are a nation of suckers. Pointing out that we were suckered by Barry Shortpants doesn't make Trump any less a grifter.

Mick said...

Obama is not eligible NO Matter WHERE he was born. His foreign father makes him ineligible, and passed Obama 2 British Citizenship at birth. NO one born with foreign allegiance is eligible for POTUS since 1787. Trump is aware of this, since he made the naturalization certificate of his mother public, proving that Trump was born of 2 US Citizen parents on US Soil (mother naturalized 2 years before he was born). Ergo Trump his a natural born Citizen.

The Media is covering up the most heinous case of Treason ever. Congress has allowed a Marxist Usurper to ascend the Presidency and give illegal orders to our troops. Nah that's not that serious. I wonder if the "law Prof" community will be embarrassed for accepting an illegal POTUS, when he is thrown out of office.

The first step is to see the ACTUAL BC (a pic on a website is proof of NOTHING), to determine if Obama Sr. is in fact Obama's father. Trump knows this.

TICK TOCK. Which "law profs" will come to Jesus, and get ahead of the ousting of the Usurper, and which will be embarrassed for blithely accepting a foreigner in the White House. TICK TOCK.

Ut said...

"She's doing a service to disaffected right-wing lunatic conspiracy theorists across the country,"

Gee Ritmo ... if you really thought this issue would hurt Republicans I'd imagine you wouldn't be so angry about this discussion. I'd think you'd want it to proceed.

If, that is, you really believed it was hurting Republicans.

Somehow, I don't think you really believe that. Your actions speak volumes.

traditionalguy said...

Conservative 4 better dental health... Let the real loonies arise... and attack one another. Katie Couric and Tina Fey are rehearsing their Donald characters as we speak. Don't you understand the comedy value of Conservatives yet?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Everyone on the East Coast knows that Trump is an egomaniacal bs-talker with a long history of bringing projects to bankruptcy. All that someone as respected as Cosby has to do is point this out in a few simple words. The idiots in the flyover who jerk themselves off to Trump's riches will get this one day, if they don't today.

Trump will not and cannot run; he's just competing for your fringe, which only amounts to vapors in the real race. Cosby has enough credibility to smack that comb-over fraud with a few words, but maybe you have something against the guy for not being a WASP. Want to see his birth certificate, too? Was Cosby born in Kenya?

Pathetic, but keep it up, caveman guy "Ut".

Which cave drawing did you pick that name up from anyway?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Oh boy! And no sooner than that has "Mick" arrived, with his never-ending warped universe bullshit about a hypothetical British citizenship somehow cancelling out American naturalization status. What a tool.

Where the fuck do you get these guys? The nut-house is really swinging this morning.

Jay said...

Gee Ritmo ... if you really thought this issue would hurt Republicans I'd imagine you wouldn't be so angry about this discussion. I'd think you'd want it to proceed.

Exactly.

But note this bozo is reacting with unhinged diatribes full of name calling.

Gee, I wonder why that is?

ricpic said...

Both issues are big. The press supports Obama no matter what because he's black. Period, end of story. The birther issue is big because electing a total questionmark president is fraught with danger: danger that is now unfolding for all but the willfully blind to see.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I dunno, TG. More talented comedians seem to have their wits about them. Those comedians who burnt themselves out artificially on cocaine and Jack or whatever saw their day in the late 1960s through the early 1980s, which would be right about on time for now in the tardy, three to five decades behind the times Conservatard culture.

Although we must still mourn Mitch Hedberg, who went a little later than that trendline. Maybe deep down, he was really a conservative.

vet66 said...

The fourth estate is in bed with the progressives, marxists, and the various unions. They see this as an existential threat to their plans for power maintenance. They have set up a Maginot Line that will only fall as Tea Partiers pressure the GOP, Independents, and conservative democrats to do an end run around them.

It will not be pretty and the way will be fraught with every form of subterfuge available to the noisy progressives who will not go down without a no-holds barred fight. We live in a democracy that is split 51 per cent to 49 percent. Dirty tricks are to be expected and prepared for. The road to 2012 will not be for the faint hearted as the states and the federal government struggle to get their respective houses in order.

Our educational institutions should be next on the list to target for reform. Who is going to decide our country's future? East coast Brahmins on Beacon Hill and their toadies on the west coast or the "Joe and Josephine plumbers" who live in flyover country?

The battle for our culture has been enjoined.

ricpic said...

Ritmo's marching orders: smear Trump with our trademark shit!

Ut said...

"Where the fuck do you get these guys? The nut-house is really swinging this morning."

Watching you become unhinged with hateful name-calling is quite entertaining.

Why don't you instead present your argument for why Americans don't have the right to see Barack Obama's original long-form birth certificate.

I had to produce mine to get my job when I filled out my I-9 form. You did too. Why shouldn't Barack Obama have to show his?

Quit name-calling and engage the facts of the debate.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

You keep wondering, Jay.

Unlike you, my allegiance to human intelligence is greater than any allegiance to any political party. Hence, I don't have any problem calling out these antics as a disgrace to human intelligence, regardless of what they do for your pathetic excuse for a political party.

But seriously, keep the faith. Please.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Quit name-calling and engage the facts of the debate.

That's ok. ;-) I'm perfectly willing to sit back and see where you end up going with this updated, infinitely more whacked out version of the costly fishing trip that was Lewinsky-gate. You're doing a bang-up job all by yourself, Caveman Guy "Ut".

What's the matter? Were grunts not available for use as an acceptable Blogger profile name?

EnigmatiCore said...

Just what we need- another vacuous celebrity as politician.

TMink said...

Ut wrote: "That would be the end of it because nobody cares that he's white (or black ... depending on your perspective)."

No conservatives care a whit about his race.

But the liberals and progressives and black care. They care a LOT. And they are his base.

You and I disagree on this matter Ut.

Tery

Jay said...

Unlike you, my allegiance to human intelligence is greater than any allegiance to any political party.

At this point it wouldn't be possible to parody you.

Thanks for participating you silly little beclowner.

Ut said...

"Unlike you, my allegiance to human intelligence is greater than any allegiance to any political party."

Dude, if that were true, you'd shut your fucking pie-hole.

You make the Democrat Party look like a bunch of buffoons.

TMink said...

Actually, Trey, not Tery.

I think I will go make coffee.

Trey

Jay said...

I don't have any problem calling out these antics as a disgrace to human intelligence,

You're a not that bright, easily misled moron.

So I doubt your opinion on 'human intelligence' matters much...

Ut said...

"But the liberals and progressives and black care. They care a LOT."

I'll rephrase my comment.

Nobody who matters cares about Obama's race or for that matter his Muslim upbringing.

TMink said...

"You make the Democrat Party look like a bunch of buffoons."

Well, it least he is accurately representing the party. 8)

Trey

shoutingthomas said...

Althouse certainly knows how to start an argument.

I can't really get into it.

Although I really enjoy Trump the character, he probably can't win the Republican nomination.

And, the citizenship bit, if it has any legal validity, will be resolved in the courts by the production of documents. Might happen. Probably won't.

For my part, I haven't got a clue where Obama was born.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

It's ok, Tery, I mean "Trey". People who can spell their own names correctly understand that you don't have the morals or honor to avoid putting a fraudulent conspiracy theory to what you consider to be "good use". It's not like you have the decency to put honesty above a good effort at firing up your otherwise demoralized fringe base. And I do mean "base" in every sense of the word.

Freeman Hunt said...

gaseous blather
scratching where it itched

The press doesn't extend that Obama protection to Trump.

He's right about the press. I'm glad he's out there making that criticism.

EnigmatiCore said...

I'm not. By attaching the serious, legitimate issue of the way the press is behaving to the less serious, almost trivial (at this point) subject of birtherism, Trump is ensuring that it will be marginalized.

Kevin said...

For my part, I haven't got a clue where Obama was born.

Contemporaneous birth announcements in two Honolulu newspapers.

That being said, it's ridiculous that we have to rely on circumstantial evidence like that to meet a clear Constitutional requirement.

It's obvious that there is something in the birth certificate that is damaging to The Narrative. And since The Narrative is Obama's sole qualification for high office, he protects it jealously.

TWM said...

Black or white, Christian or Muslim, incompetent or not, citizen of the USA or citizen of the world, Obama is awesome!

shoutingthomas said...

The press doesn't extend that Obama protection to Trump.

He's right about the press. I'm glad he's out there making that criticism.

Yes, the major outlet press is in the bag for Obama.

Obama is starchy and professorial. Not to mention black.

And Trump... well, he's sort of like Walmart in comparison. That is, I think he more closely approximates what those real Americans out there really admire and want. And the blue nose, preachy liberals think he's gauche and commercial... just like Walmart.

And, of course, Trump is sort of trashy white, too.

He's a great character.

Freeman Hunt said...

It is rather bizarre that no one in the press has bothered to go to Hawaii to convince some records person to go take a peek at the long form birth certificate, isn't it?

No matter what is on the birth certificate, it would sell papers and magazines. It could contain nothing of interest, no revelations, and people would still want to see it. It just seems so obvious.

I am not into the birther thing, but I am into the crummy journalism thing.

I'm guessing J-school training betrayed the profession when it started teaching activism instead of commitment to truth and fact finding.

Kevin said...

It is rather bizarre that no one in the press has bothered to go to Hawaii to convince some records person to go take a peek at the long form birth certificate, isn't it?

I'm sure Obama's long form birth certificate is locked up in the Governor's safe at this point, just to keep someone from snooping. I bet that his academic records from Columbia and Harvard Law are also locked up somewhere special, for precisely the same reason.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

All this noise and the most credible explanation anybody can come up with is Trey's (or as he alternatively spells it, "Tery"'s) idea that no one wants to know that Anne Dunham put "white" as the race?

Really. Is this the best that can be provided? All this noise and that's it?

Enough said.

It's like Bill Maher said about Glenn Beck: The guy is close to playing with his poop.

shoutingthomas said...

I'm guessing J-school training betrayed the profession when it started teaching activism instead of commitment to truth and fact finding.

Has the National Enquirer looked into this?

It's a sad comment on the press that we have to rely on the Enquirer for true investigative journalism when it comes to Democrats.

Sure as hell won't find it in the New York Times.

TWM said...

"No matter what is on the birth certificate, it would sell papers and magazines. It could contain nothing of interest, no revelations, and people would still want to see it. It just seems so obvious."

That's because "The Smoking Man" pays them a visit when they first start digging.

Freeman Hunt said...

I'm sure Obama's long form birth certificate is locked up in the Governor's safe at this point, just to keep someone from snooping.

Could be. But if it were missing from the files, that would also be news. Someone would have to explain where it went.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Personally, Freeman (@9:12), I think the butler did it with the pipe in the parlor.

Freeman Hunt said...

It's a sad comment on the press that we have to rely on the Enquirer for true investigative journalism when it comes to Democrats.

No kidding. That alone should make national level journalists ashamed. I mean, really, not one of them outside of the Enquirer can be bothered to look into scandals involving Democrats? You'd think they'd have cleaned up their acts after the embarrassment of the John Edwards scandal.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Alternatively, Professor Plum might have done it with a candlestick in the conservatory.

Seriously, the possibilities are endless.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I mean, come on guys! If the National Enquirer can't find out about how Colonel Mustard did it with a rope in the in the ballroom (hid the birth certificate, that is), then we are seriously fucked as a country.

Freeman Hunt said...

Personally, Freeman (@9:12), I think the butler did it with the pipe in the parlor.

Except it's not a game, it's real life, and the people who are suppose to gather information to inform the rest of us are not interested in gathering information that hurts favored politicians. That's a bad, bad thing.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

The current MSM are the ones that pushed Obama across the finish line with their lies of omission.
They cannot expose Obama for the fraud that he is without doing the same to themselves.

This is why he skates on everything.

As long as Obama, in their eyes, remains good, then the media remains good also for putting him there.

Almost Ali said...

I'm sure Obama's long form birth certificate is locked up in the Governor's safe...

I think Gov. Abercrombie pretty much disproved this point when he came up with nothing. And while still in an initial state of shock, admitted he had come up with nothing; no original, no long form, no nothin'.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Except it's not a game, it's real life

Yep. It's really just that serious an issue! Especially with everything else that's been going on!

Talk about a lack of sensible priorities.

You're starting to remind me of that Matt Foley character that Chris Farley used to impersonate. I mean, do we, as a country, really want to end up in a van down by the river?

Sixty Grit said...

And "Smoking Man", in this case, is Obama the Kenyan himself.

Chef Mojo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mick said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

"Oh boy! And no sooner than that has "Mick" arrived, with his never-ending warped universe bullshit about a hypothetical British citizenship somehow cancelling out American naturalization status. What a tool.

Where the fuck do you get these guys? The nut-house is really swinging this morning."





Right, Obama Admits, at Fight the Smears, that he was born British. Only those born w/ Singular allegiance to the US are eligible to be POTUS, and eligible to be CIC of the armed forces. It's common sense.

Even Laurence Tribe said it: ( "natural born Citizens are those born WITHIN the Territory AND ALEGIANCE of a nation".)

Foreign Nationality law has as much standing in the US as US law, just as those born of US citizens abroad are considered US Citizens.

Chef Mojo said...

The Donald is a pretty clever guy. He knows the press can't resist him. When he walks into the room, the press reacts like a pack of Okie meth heads in the presence of fresh junk from the lab. They're hooked.

As a result, what he says gets out there, and that's a good thing. The press can't cover up The Donald and sweep him under the rug. He's effective. Look at what happened when he went off on the View. It was like a bomb going off. People couldn't ignore it. He brought up the birther stuff, and the women went batshit! The resulting squawking was like a fox invading a henhouse.

Really, I don't care about the whole birth certificate thing. True or not, I only see it as a weapon against Obama. Anything that hurts him and his credibility with the people is good in my eyes. If it's not true, and it damages him, I'm cool with that. This is an ongoing war, and I'll use any arrow in my quiver to damage Obama's chances at reelection.

wv: clang; the sound made every time The Donald slaps Obama upside the head with the birther thing.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Well, whatever. If, as Trump promises, he's got his investigatahs down there digging up the dirt, then I'm sure your anticlimactic solution to this boring conspiracy is just around the corner. After all, since you Republicans believe that money can do anything, then if Trump can't do it, no one can.

I mean seriously, he almost lured Rosie O'Donnell's ex-girlfriend away from her using a lesbian foil. He's a REALLY SERIOUS GUY!!!

shoutingthomas said...

Ritmo, you keep denying it is a serious issue.

But, it is.

The moment some investigative journalist produces documents that prove Obama isn't native... well, that's mighty serious, isn't it?

I'm not saying it's going to happen. Maybe Obama is native born.

But, can you tell what would be more serious than to discover that Obama isn't constitutionally qualified to be president?

That's pretty damned serious.

galdosiana said...

I think that Trump makes some very valid points. The media has gone way above and beyond their job by allowing--and actually helping--Obama's camp to produce a narrative without actually having any evidence to back up any of the information they claim as fact.

You'd think it would be in their best interest to produce these documents--birth certificate, college transcripts, etc. After all, the BC is a Constitutional matter. As far as the transcripts are concerned, well, if Obama really is the most intelligent president we've ever had, then you'd think they'd be happy to show us his grades at Harvard, just like we've seen the transcripts for all other recent presidents.

I agree with Trey: The fact that the Obama administration flat-out refuses to produce such documents suggests that there is something in them that goes against the narrative that they so forcefully have imposed on us over the past 3 years.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Trump will use a paid lesbian spy to lure away the guys orchestrating the cover-up in Honolulu, and then they will sing like birds. It's a genius scheme. Seriously.

And then it will be produced as a reality TV show. Or something.

Come on guys! Can't you feel the trail getting hotter and hotter! We're almost onto him, that Zero guy!

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Ritmo, you keep denying it is a serious issue.

But, it is.

The moment some investigative journalist produces documents that prove Obama isn't native... well, that's mighty serious, isn't it?

I'm not saying it's going to happen. Maybe Obama is native born.

But, can you tell what would be more serious than to discover that Obama isn't constitutionally qualified to be president?

That's pretty damned serious.


Why should I have any trouble believing that if it was really not only serious, but credible, that mainstream, non-partisan fact-gathering organizations and attorneys filing suit would have said and put out anything to cast doubt on the issue?

Freeman Hunt said...

Yep. It's really just that serious an issue! Especially with everything else that's been going on!

I just pulled up the ABC News homepage. Lead stories:

1. (Top Story) Obama Advisor: Budget Cuts 'Draconian' and 'Historic'
2. NY Serial Killer May Be Ex-Lawman
3. Redford on Politics: "Pretty Grim"
4. IRS Audits: 4 Famous Red Flags
5. Sidney Lumet Dies at 86
6. Kate's Royal Wedding Hairstyle

Yes, how could they ever find the time?

shoutingthomas said...

Why should I have any trouble believing that if it was really not only serious, but credible, that mainstream, non-partisan fact-gathering organizations and attorneys filing suit would have said and put out anything to cast doubt on the issue?

Once again, I'm not saying there is a believable issue here.

The argument is that the mainstream media is so in bed with Obama that they refuse to investigate. I think there's reason to believe that.

For instance, the mainstream media did everything it could do to minimize and distract public attention from Obama's decades long relationship with Rev. Wright.

Chef Mojo said...

@Ritmo:

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether you consider this serious or not. It only matters that it makes people doubt Obama's legitimacy. True or not, it's an amazingly effective weapon. It's gone from being fringe/crazy (ala Mick) to being mainstream. The Donald has made talking about the certificate normal. Obama and his people look like they're stonewalling, and that raises doubt. Doubt damages.

True believers like yourself can kick and scream about the unseriousness of the allegations, but you can't deny that it's not drawing a little blood. Each time this gets out into the press, it's another cut.

Titus said...

I am a birther. Show us the birth certificate blacky.

Pogo said...

The MSM no longer requires having any j-school 'training', just Democratic Party membership and kneepads.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

One day, one newspaper, one data point. On a fricking weekend, at that. (@9:37).

And you Republicans say that your empiricism skills are par excellence! Not only do they survive intact, they are blistering!

Newsflash on New York Times: They're also still, at least as I understand it, allowed to be a local paper from time to time and can report on local events, including the goings-on amongst the local celebutards. Don't hate them for doing a better job of also somehow becoming the paper of record for the rest of the country. I mean, I've got nothing against the Des Moines Register if they're up for the challenge also.

Ut said...

"Why should I have any trouble believing that if it was really not only serious, but credible, that mainstream, non-partisan fact-gathering organizations and attorneys filing suit would have said and put out anything to cast doubt on the issue?"

That is an Mi>"appeal to authority" and is a well-known logical fallacy. Where did you attend school? Did they not teach you about this fifth-grade level error in thinking?

Again Ritmo, you make the Democrat Party look like morons who know nothing of science or logic.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

What is it, Chef (@9:40)? The Chinese Water Torture of Untruth and Speculation in the Minds of a Minor Mob? Fact-check.org and a bunch of credible others did the math and I can't find anything mainstream on this. It's all up to the "alternative" press on the right, now, and that's a series of sources I take as seriously as the left-wing "alternative" press. Biased, biased, biased and always a bit goofy in where and how they want to cast their fishing lines.

Ut said...

"I am a birther. Show us the birth certificate blacky."

That sort of blatant racism is out-of-bounds Titus.

Ann, please delete Titus' comment.

Browndog said...

After reviewing his passport when he traveled to Pakistan, and reading his publications in the Law Review, I have no doubt Barry is who some say he is.

Marshal said...

"All the very wealthy people who think they know great apartments come here and they say, ‘Donald, forget it. This is the greatest.’"

The egoism shown here is driving this stunt. Be extremely wary of egoists, whether driven by money, fame, or personal charisma. People who believe their success in one area means they're right on everything are dangerous. And this guy has the worst case I've ever seen. He's a buffoon, a poseur, who apparently manages to see himself as serious.

We'd be in deep shit with this guy as president.

shoutingthomas said...

Don't hate them for doing a better job of also somehow becoming the paper of record for the rest of the country.

The New York Times is losing readers by the boatload, and it's a financial sinkhole.

Only the extended mother corporation's greater holdings are keeping the NYT afloat.

And, it could be argued that the repetitive scandals that have revealed the bias of the NYT accounts for that loss of readership and the sinking of its financial fortunes.

Of course, newspapers across the board are dying because the internet has made their business model obsolete.

Freeman Hunt said...

It's not about the birther issue.

It's about the press. Their unwillingness to wrap up the birther thing is just another example of how unserious they are about fact finding. In the case of the birther issue, even if they think the idea is stupid, they know that a lot of people in the United States think that the President was born somewhere else.

That is serious because it's important for people to believe in the legitimacy of the President. And yet, instead of doing the work and informing people to put the issue to rest, they belittle the people with a collective eye roll and go work on investigating Redford's views on politics, Middleton's hairstyle, and whether or not an Obama advisor likes the cuts that Obama doesn't like (Guess what? He doesn't!).

Phil 3:14 said...

This feels like the political version of female mud wrestling.

And I thought Trump was going to go the "I'm a businessman; I can run this country" route. What advisor told him "Go the birther route and then when you've got their attention, whip out your economic recovery plan"?

Well from this Republican I can only say:
"Mr. Trump YOU'RE FIRED"

Ut said...

"Fact-check.org and a bunch of credible others did the math and I can't find anything mainstream on this."

If you read factcheck.org carefully, you will plainly see that they make comment only about the contemporaneously produced "birth certificate" that the Obama campaign proffered as evidence that he is an American.

factcheck.org has not seen Barack Obama's original long-form birth certificate.

Many people have concluded that factcheck.org have not seen that original long-form birth certificate because it does not exist.

In fact, the current Democrat governor of Hawaii went in search of that very document but reported to the mainstream media that he was unable to locate that document in the Hawaiian birth archives.

Many people maintain an open mind and would be willing to be persuaded that Barack Obama is, in fact, an American.

So, we'd like to see his original long-form birth certificate which isn't an unusual or particularly onerous request.

All Americans have to provide such documentation on a daily basis when filling out their I-9 form to be gainfully employed in the United States.

Happens every day.

What's the big deal, dude?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Mojo:

Donald will run with it all the way to the primaries -- if he survives that far (which he probably won't). Once a nominee is chosen, it won't be an issue. Listen to the Cos; he's wiser than most Americans.

Trump is just doing this as his own pet hobby, of the sort that only other rich weirdos of the Howard Hughes mindcast, and with that much time and money on their hands, can appreciate.

I'm simply amazed at how easily you allow for people to be manipulated by just another rich weirdo. Oh well, he's definitely got his audience cut out for him.

shoutingthomas said...

I'm simply amazed at how easily you allow for people to be manipulated by just another rich weirdo. Oh well, he's definitely got his audience cut out for him.

He's fun. He's got a personality, complete with quirks and flaws.

So, he's a lot more fun to talk about than the bland non-entities like Obama and Huckleberry... or whatever his name is.

There is something wrong with our political system when only bland non-entities can survive.

Gabriel Hanna said...

President Obama's birth certificate is being hidden

It's not being hidden. There is no sekrit birth certificate. The one the State of Hawaii issues is the only real one.

Freeman Hunt said...

One day, one newspaper, one data point. On a fricking weekend, at that.

That's all that's needed. You said they wouldn't have time to wrap up the birther issue with everything else they're busy covering.

Even if they've been too busy every other day since the beginning of the Presidential race (Ha!), they did have time just now.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

"True or not, it's an amazingly effective weapon."

True that and it's right out of Obamas arsenal....

Alinsky Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.

Trump is hoisting Obama by his own petard.

Ut said...

"Many people maintain an open mind and would be willing to be persuaded that Barack Obama is, in fact, an American. So, we'd like to see his original long-form birth certificate which isn't an unusual or particularly onerous request."

In the absence of that proof, many people will conclude that it's better to just be safe than sorry and vote for somebody they KNOW is American.

So it's in Obama's best interest to release the document.

If he has one.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

In the case of the birther issue, even if they think the idea is stupid, they know that a lot of people in the United States think that the President was born somewhere else.

Oh. And why would they assume to think that? And if they do, why should they be engaged?

The issue can just as easily be cast as the press not pushing for an iron-clad level (to the point of almost hypothetical) of evidentiary standards as it can be silly nativism. So if it comes down to "The Narrative" (as someone else called it) why play this silly little political game to an obviously anticlimactic end? What will be gotten for it? The timely understanding that there were no WMD in Iraq?

Again, priorities. If you're going to take the press on, you might want to try doing it over something that matters. But we all know where that would lead you...

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

That contemporaneous birth certificate would be laughed out of court. It's not admissable evidence because a copy is not admissible in the presence of the original.

Obviously you don't know anyone who was adopted. When children are adopted the state destroys the old certificate and issues new ones, with the adoptive parents listed as the birth parents.

What the state prints out and notiarizes for you when you request a birth certificate is the ONLY LEGAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE and it is the ORIGINAL BY LEGAL DEFINITION.

Love how people like to make up laws. Guess what? A cop doesn't have to tell you he's a cop either.

Browndog said...

This is all smoke and mirrors.

Teams of reports spent weeks in Wasilla, AK.

They found absolutely nothing in Barry's past that should raise any questions.

Chef Mojo said...

@Ritmo:

It doesn't matter if Factcheck supports your argument. What matters is The Donald is constantly on TV mainstreaming the birther question. Most people don't know Factcheck from a hole in the ground, but they do see that clip from the View being played over and over. On Youtube, that clip has got over 300,000 views. Factcheck can't compete with that exposure.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

digitally scanned image of a contemporaneously produced short-form "birth certificate" produced by current Hawaiian state officials who - it just so happens - belong to the Democrat Party.

Every state recognizes these "contemporaneously produced" documents as the only legal and valid birth certificate. The US government issue your passport based on these birth certificates.

The double-secret long-form birth certificate has no legal validity. Many people don't have one, and people who were adopted are not allowed to have one.

PatCA said...

Yooge, LOL, that's right!

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

That's all that's needed. You said they wouldn't have time to wrap up the birther issue with everything else they're busy covering.

I don't recall saying this. I recall pointing out what it's worth an average citizen spending his time worrying or being concerned about.

Even if they've been too busy every other day since the beginning of the Presidential race (Ha!), they did have time just now.

And still, focusing it on engaging a conspiracy that was too loony and partisan even for FOX anymore would be a bigger waste than the local dogcatcher and celebutard stories.

Ut said...

"Trump is hoisting Obama by his own petard."

Also Ritmo I'm reminded of an old saw: There's no crying in baseball.

Quit your fucking whinging,you pathetic little girl.

Titus said...

While you are showing us your birth certificate whip out your hog. I want to see that thing.

Gabriel Hanna said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_certificate

Most hospitals in the U.S. issue a souvenir birth certificate which typically includes the footprints of the newborn. However, these birth certificates are not legally accepted as proof of age or citizenship, and are frequently rejected by the Bureau of Consular Affairs during passport applications. Many Americans believe the souvenir records to be their official birth certificates, when in reality they hold little legal value.

In the United States and Canada, when a person is legally adopted, the government will seal the original birth certificate, and will issue a replacement birth certificate noting the information of the adoptive parents, and the adoptive names of the child. In those cases, adopted individuals are not granted access to their own original birth certificates upon request. Laws vary depending on state or province. Some places allow adopted people unrestricted access to their own original birth certificates, whereas in others the certificate is available only if the biological parents have given their permission. Other places do not allow adopted people access to their own original birth certificates under any circumstances.


The seckrit long-form birth certificate is bullshit. The Federal and state governments recognizes no such thing as legal birth certificate except what the state prints out and stamps for you when you ask them for one.

The demand for a sekrit "real" birth certificate is based on totally made-up law.

This is like when tax protestors think they can avoid paying taxes by declaring themselves to be a "live person". There are no sekrit laws and sekrit brith certificates.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

It doesn't matter if Factcheck supports your argument. What matters is The Donald is constantly on TV mainstreaming the birther question. Most people don't know Factcheck from a hole in the ground, but they do see that clip from the View being played over and over. On Youtube, that clip has got over 300,000 views. Factcheck can't compete with that exposure.

Guess what, Julius Caesar Mojo: I'm glad you've discovered the power of the mob and its attendant sensationalism. That must be an exciting personal epiphany. Can't always really easily compete with those things on their own terms. But, thankfully, most of us with morals would do a better job distinguishing between what can be done, with what should be done. And when all else fails, the shelf-life on our appetite for flash and glam is limited. It expires. It rots. People find better things to do and an eventually more sensible way to do it. But in the meantime, knock yourself out. Mold may even grow some hallucinogenic stuff, but at the end of the day, most of our minds will recognize the need for some simple bread and butter.

Ut said...

"Every state recognizes these "contemporaneously produced" documents as the only legal and valid birth certificate."

Incorrect.

Every state recognizes contemporaneously produced documents as one of many forms of legal and valid birth certificates ... unless there is reason to believe the document may have been forged or otherwise not factual.

Then a court would go to the originally filed "time-of-birth" long-form birth certificate to determine the truth of the matter.

It is trivial for Barack Obama to settle the matter at any rate. Every American is required to prove their identity before obtaining legal work in the United States.

What is Barack Obama hiding? And why is he hiding it?

virgil xenophon said...

If I were a betting man--and I am--I'd lay money on the proposition that ALL of Obama's "sealed" records--of every stripe--no longer physically exist in original hard-copy form. The logic goes like this: If you were Obama, would you rather the public be pissed because you have hidden and/or even acknowledge to having destroyed them, or would you rather risk the public/legal outrage if the public ever sees what those documents REALLY reveal? Those original hard-copy documents--ALL OF THEM--are looong gone.

Gabriel Hanna said...

What Obama produced as his birth certificate is ALL and ONLY that you, I, or anyone else would be legally required to produce in any situation, and no sekrit "long-form" would be acceptable to a court or a government.

Ut said...

"I'm glad you've discovered the power of the mob and its attendant sensationalism."

What you fail to comprehend Ritmo is that you've lost the battle once people begin having this conversation.

The fact that there IS a conversation about this topic represents a political failure on the part of the Democrat Party and Barack Obama. It's poor politics.

The actual birth certificate is just a prop.

Titus said...

I bet his pubes are almost nonexistent.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@UT:

Then a court would go to the originally filed "time-of-birth" long-form birth certificate to determine the truth of the matter.

Cite an example of a court that does this, or STFU.

You don't know what you are talking about. You are peddling made-up and inane legal theories with no basis in fact.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:It is trivial for Barack Obama to settle the matter at any rate. Every American is required to prove their identity before obtaining legal work in the United States.

With the exact same form Obama published already, jackass.

Once again, cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

You got nothing. You cannot back any satatement you have made with any evidence.

Ut said...

"What Obama produced as his birth certificate is ALL and ONLY that you, I, or anyone else would be legally required to produce in any situation, and no sekrit "long-form" would be acceptable to a court or a government."

But we're not in a government court, Gabriel. So those rules of evidence are meaningless.

We're in the court of public opinion, where Obama's originally filed long-form birth certificate is the ONLY acceptable evidence.

He will either produce it, or lose his presidency.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

It's about as impactful a conversation as the one you're having with the invisible people in your mind, Caveman Guy "Ut". And everyone beyond the bubble knows that.

What did Karl and Rush do that convinced Republicans to think that half of their caucus is an American majority?

What a scam.

Titus said...

The hog is definitely uncut, probably dangles to the left and when hard a shiny head pops out. Likely has some cheese in the sheath. I don't see him as a shooter though, more like just some wimpy drips.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@UT:

We're in the court of public opinion, where Obama's originally filed long-form birth certificate is the ONLY acceptable evidence.

He will either produce it, or lose his presidency.


Jet propelled goalposts!

Once again, cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

edutcher said...

The Donald is very Puckishly pointing out a crushing irony:

All the Lefty reporters who got into journalism because they wanted to be the next Woodward and Bernstein have perhaps the greatest story in American history at their fingertips and they're too swept up in their own idolatry, PC, and corruption to see it.

Whether anyone likes it, there are some weird anomalies in Little Zero's story, not the least of which is that his SSN is apparently for someone born in CT, not HI. What the story is really, I can't say (I was skeptical of anything more than something humorously embarrassing), but The Donal is correct when he says a certificate of live birth is not the same thing as a birth cert and does not constitute legal proof, which I learned in my own case some years ago.

TricklingDownHisLeg said...

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

I. AM. OZ.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

20 bucks says that "Ut" will refuse to give a realistic numerical percentage of the number of Americans who would take the birther conspiracy seriously.

Watching how far the guy will go to blow smoke has become mildly entertaining.

Ut said...

" ...or STFU."

Shut up, they explained.

No. Sir. We're going to debate this topic until we're satisfied.

There will be no squelching of free speech and free opinion in this forum.

Freeman Hunt said...

why should they be engaged?

Why should they be engaged? Are you kidding? That is a politician's argument. The press isn't supposed to be engaging in political maneuvering. That's the entire point at issue here.

The press thinks that a lot of people's beliefs are incredibly stupid, and it rushes to correct them. Take, for example, the silly idea that Obama is Muslim; the press engages with that because people believe it. They've engaged extensively with the idea that all gays are living wild lifestyles. They've engaged with the idea that all Muslims are violent. They've engaged with young Earth creationism.

But when it comes to something that might be negative for a favored politician? "Oh, we just don't have time. Got to find out what Charlie Sheen was up to last night and whether or not those Palin kids are up to any shenanigans." Please.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Coward. I'm calling you out. Cite some goddamned evidence for your position and quit making shit up.

You can't do it. You got nothing. And you are exposed.

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

Titus said...

Definitely low hanging balls, with left one dangling lower than right one, natch.

I bet it is hard to tell the difference in the size of his hog when he is hard and when he is soft.

Not much of a grower.

Ut said...

"20 bucks says that "Ut" will refuse to give a realistic numerical percentage of the number of Americans who would take the birther conspiracy seriously."

It's not a conspiracy and nobody said it was. Obama is free to keep that document hidden. It's his right. People would just like to know if their president is a crook. Seems reasonable to me.

When Dan Rather was accused of forging memos to try to swing a presidential election, people said that was a "conspiracy" too.

And it was a conspiracy.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Titus:

They speculate that Il Prez's hog is mottled with vitiligo, and they are shocked! and outraged!

Carol_Herman said...

Yeah. Obama's Black. When the Article 2-something was written, it was designed to keep Hamilton out of the running. Blacks weren't even counted as humans.

And, sure. There's embarrassing information on the "first" of many birth certificates. Including the fact that Obama wasn't the guy. But Frank Harris was!

When Barry was less than two, his mom deposited Barry with the Frank Harris family. Frank Harris and his wife had a son, together, named Mark. And, Mark and Barry look like they're related.

But you want to disqualify a Black guy on rules that were written before the 14th Amendment got stuck into place?

Fat chance. Good for Trump, thouh. He knows a good argument when he sees one.

And, why should an illegitimate birth be considered a disqualifer? Is this a religious argument?

Dubya wasn't fit to be president! A spoiled brat, from a spoiled republican tree. And, now we have a Romney pushing himself forward.

You bet, I'll take Trump!

Obama just took all of Dubya's "stuff" and made them worse.

He's tossed a lot of people under the bus, besides. Well, Dubya tossed Rumsfeld out. So, it is like Rumsfeld's Rules state: "A's hire A's. B's higher C's."

Incompetence has been shot through our presidencies since Ike wasn't so hot, either.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

Ut said...

"I'm calling you out."

What are you, in gym class? Jesus this really is the "high school presidency."

LOL. OMG I've been "called out."

Titus said...

Don't get me started with Michelle's cooch, yuck.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

You are a liar. You can't prove anything you have asserted.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

That is a politician's argument. The press isn't supposed to be engaging in political maneuvering. That's the entire point at issue here.

They implications are not limited to politics: The politically obsessed weirdos fixating on this are citing legal claims, to which they have none. Hence: They deserve no engagement. Read Gabe Hannah. C'est tout.

Oh, and Althouse isn't citing legal claims, either - as she obviously knows better. Hence, to her it's all just about politics too, yet she runs with it anyway. To her shame.

I'll watch Gabe make Ut squirm a little more. Otherwise, yawn.

rsb said...

Profile of Trump is a bit dated.

Sixty Grit said...

Ut wrote... "

"I am a birther. Show us the birth certificate blacky."

That sort of blatant racism is out-of-bounds Titus.

Ann, please delete Titus' comment. "

Several things - first of all, there is, for the most part, free speech here. Second, Titus is a protected minority himself, so no deletion is possible.

Third, he is Althouse's favorite commenter.

Fourth, I think that was an attempt at humor. Like most of Titus' posts, it just lies there like a smelly turd, but that's what our hostess likes, so there you go.

Ut said...

"They speculate that Il Prez's hog is mottled with vitilig"

Vera Baker says its only 6 inches long and not very thick and smells of cigarette smoke.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ritmo:

Don't help. You're little better than a troll and if you actually cared about this issue you'd offer evidence and not snark. It's more important for you to be a jackass, that's your choice, but don't involve me.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

Ut said...

"Hence, to her it's all just about politics too, yet she runs with it anyway."

Everything about Barack Obama is about politics, dude.

He's a politician.

If he was Tiger Woods, it would all be about golf. But he's President, so it's all politics.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

I notice you have time to comment on Obama's penis, but no time to search for court cases that back up your imaginary law, right?

James said...

All that someone as respected as Cosby has to do is point this out in a few simple words

Respected, you say?

Bill Cosby settles with Canadian woman



Comedian Bill Cosby has settled a lawsuit filed against him by a Canadian woman.

The terms of the settlement with Andrea Constand of Pickering, Ontario, are confidential.

Constand's American lawyer, Dolores Troiani, issued a statement that confirmed the two parties "have resolved their differences, and, therefore, the litigation has been dismissed."

Cosby’s publicist David Brokaw told the Associated Press a settlement was reached but said there would be no public comment from the legendary comic.

Constand sued Cosby for allegedly sexually assaulting her at his mansion in Cheltenham Township in January 2004. She sought compensation from Cosby for "mental anguish," "post-traumatic stress disorder" and the "loss of enjoyment of life's pleasures."

The massage therapy student, now 33, alleged that Cosby gave her medication and then fondled her breasts and put his hand on her genitals one evening while the two were in his home.

She said she developed a friendship with the star while working at his alma mater, Temple University.

Constand filed a complaint against Cosby with Durham Regional Police in January 2005 and the case was turned over to police in Philadelphia.

No criminal charges were laid against Cosby, now 69.

MayBee said...

Yes! to what Freeman said at 4/10/11 9:51 AM.

Prior to the Obama birth certificate issue, there were several thoughtful articles about McCain's own birth location problems. McCain wasn't the first candidate to have a possible problem (George Romney was another), and the press consensus seemed to be that eventually we would have a winning candidate for whom we would have to go through the legal system and get it figured out.

But Obama's bc issue came up and the thoughtful articles went away. Even though Obama had handled the whole thing in such a weird way- first developing a website for it (Stop the Smears), but instead giving it to Kos at the last minute- the press accepted it.
I don't know why that didn't make the press more curious. Even if there is no there there, the lack of curiosity stands out.

Freeman Hunt said...

The politically obsessed weirdos fixating on this are citing legal claims, to which they have none. Hence: They deserve no engagement. Read Gabe Hannah. C'est tout.

Your argument doesn't work because I just cited four issues for you where the press engaged similar beliefs.

Yes, the current Hawaii birth certificate is used to establish identity. I don't know where people get the idea that it is not. However, it is also printed out from data entered into the computer system from the original long form birth certificate. A lot of people believe that erroneous data was entered on Obama's behalf, data that does not match the original.

Do I believe that? No.

But a quarter of the American people do believe it, and since it's a matter of fact subject to evidence, the press can easily investigate and inform people on the issue with evidence.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Don't help. You're little better than a troll and if you actually cared about this issue you'd offer evidence and not snark. It's more important for you to be a jackass, that's your choice, but don't involve me.

I didn't "involve" you, jackass, I "cited" you. Honor and evidence are two different things. If I'd cared more about how to engage the trolls you disagree with, like Ut, then I'd have bothered to investigate the definitional bare minimum for what counts as evidentiary standards in his feeble mind. But I didn't. You did. So go with it, dude. I'm happy to have you taking him off my hands on right-wing nutter/troll patrol. My conversation no longer concerns nutters like "Ut" and continues with, if anyone, other non-trolls such as Mojo and Freeman. You can take the guy. Have at him. I simply don't have the experience or understanding to know how a mind as warped as his works and am thankful that you obviously do.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@edutcher:

Once again, people are making up laws. If you knew anything about how SSNs are assigned, you wouldn't have written

not the least of which is that his SSN is apparently for someone born in CT, not HI.

Your SSN isn't issued depending on your place of birth. It's issued based on where you applied for it.

I was born in Washington but my SSN starts with 4 instead of 5, because I didn't get my SSN there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number

The Area Number, the first three digits, is assigned by the geographical region. Prior to 1973, cards were issued in local Social Security offices around the country and the Area Number represented the office code in which the card was issued. This did not necessarily have to be in the area where the applicant lived, since a person could apply for their card in any Social Security office. Since 1973, when SSA began assigning SSNs and issuing cards centrally from Baltimore, the area number assigned has been based on the ZIP code in the mailing address provided on the application for the original Social Security card. The applicant's mailing address does not have to be the same as their place of residence. Thus, the Area Number does not necessarily represent the State of residence of the applicant, neither prior to 1973, nor since.

Titus said...

It's fucking hot in Scony today.

Mick said...

Gabriel Hanna said...

What Obama produced as his birth certificate is ALL and ONLY that you, I, or anyone else would be legally required to produce in any situation, and no sekrit "long-form" would be acceptable to a court or a government.


He has produced nothing, submitted nothing. A pic on a website is proof of NOTHING. Besides, by his own story he is already ineligible, not natural born, because he was born a British Subject. He admits this at fight the smears.

Freeman Hunt said...

The politically obsessed weirdos fixating on this are citing legal claims, to which they have none. Hence: They deserve no engagement. Read Gabe Hannah. C'est tout.

Your argument doesn't work because I just cited four issues for you where the press engaged similar beliefs.

Yes, the current Hawaii birth certificate is used to establish identity. I don't know where people get the idea that it is not. However, it is also printed out from data entered into the computer system from the original long form birth certificate. A lot of people believe that erroneous data was entered on Obama's behalf, data that does not match the original.

Do I believe that? No.

But a quarter of the American people do believe it, and since it's a matter of fact subject to evidence, the press can easily investigate and inform people on the issue with evidence.

(I have a link for the quarter of Americans stat, but Blogger deleted my comment when I included it. Here is the title in case you'd like to Google it and read it: "Fox News Poll: 24 Percent Believe Obama Not Born in U.S.")

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ritmo: What you do is not honorable. You just snark at people trying to make them feel inferior to you. You damage every cause you espouse, because people will not listen to anything substantive you have to say.

Your next incarnation might argue differently, and I'd treat you a lot nicer, and people would be more willing to listen to your arguments and be persuaded to the positions you hold.

But all you do know is Team Blue feces-flinging.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Your argument doesn't work because I just cited four issues for you where the press engaged similar beliefs.

Four issues without legal import, whereas this one does* - making it inherently more dishonorable to spread and therefore not worth engaging. You should be able to get that.

*(or potentially would, in an alternative universe where right-wing myths have basis in reality).

Chef Mojo said...

@Ritmo:

C'mon, man. I'm trying to do this without resorting to snark or namecalling, ok?

I understand your view on this issue, and it's perfectly valid, but we're not talking about morality here. We're seeing how a meme attaches itself to the body politic. It doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, moral or immoral; it simply is what it is.

Remember Bush and the plastic turkey? Demonstrably false, but it took off, so to speak, and tenaciously attached itself to Bush to the point of going mainstream. It was used as a weapon, and it was terribly effective.

The birther question is doing the same thing to Obama. The "mob" does matter, and once they begin to doubt, then Katy bar the door.

I'm not interested in whether Obama has a valid birth certificate or not; it's not really an issue at this point. The guy's president, and no court in the land would dare overturn the '08 election and all of us know it. (Well, folks like Ut and Mick excepted, of course...) If, however, the "mob" can be convinced to doubt his legitimacy, then perhaps it can be used as a weapon against him. That's what matters to me in all this. Is it a moral thing to use this issue as a weapon? Of course not, but there's very little in politics that is.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Freeman:

The press already DID engage on this, and this is why the state government said they had seen the birth certificate. They did take the trouble to refute it. They have refuted it for all reasonable people who have any factual of knowledge of what birth certificates and how they work, as opposed to standards that they just make up.

My "original" birth certificate is not even available to me. It may no longer exist, because I was adopted, but even if it does I cannot demand to see it or have it "released".

The birthers are not reasonable and will not be convinced by any sort of evidence. Look how many things they already belive which are easily demonstrated to have no factual basis. They have created an alternate legal reality for themselves.

edutcher said...

Gabriel Hanna said...
@edutcher:

Once again, people are making up laws. If you knew anything about how SSNs are assigned, you wouldn't have written

not the least of which is that his SSN is apparently for someone born in CT, not HI.

Your SSN isn't issued depending on your place of birth. It's issued based on where you applied for it.


Not making up anything, that's what I was told, but I stand happily corrected.

But it still makes an interesting question, why CT?

WV "pupsi" What Mrs Hudson and Miss Morstan like to drink with potato chips.

Freeman Hunt said...

Four issues without legal import, whereas this one does* - making it inherently more dishonorable to spread and therefore not worth engaging.

Because it concerns matters of law, it is not worth engaging? Why on earth would that be? I would think that matters of fact concerning the law regarding the President's eligibility for office would be much more worthwhile to engage than somebody's personal beliefs.

Sixty Grit said...

G Hanna - good twist - Obama is adopted. I like it.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Freeman:

Because it concerns matters of law, it is not worth engaging? Why on earth would that be? I would think that matters of fact concerning the law regarding the President's eligibility for office would be much more worthwhile to engage than somebody's personal beliefs.

Obama already satisfied the law. You think he is obligated to satisfy laws that are made up by crazy people?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

@Ritmo: What you do is not honorable. You just snark at people trying to make them feel inferior to you.

Oh, thanks for arguing with me on a level where you see us as equals! So honorable. And no snark! How could I forget how "dishonorable" Jon Stewart is. Well, I wish I could make my snark as talented as his, but I guess unlike some people, I can accept my limitations in life without feeling inferior about them.

You damage every cause you espouse, because people will not listen to anything substantive you have to say.

Intentionally ignorant people, yes. I admit that I somehow find a way to make that sort feel emboldened and enraged - almost to the point where they turn themselves into self-parody. Oh well. Nobody's perfect.

Your next incarnation might argue differently, and I'd treat you a lot nicer, and people would be more willing to listen to your arguments and be persuaded to the positions you hold.

You know as well as I do that no matter how "nicely" we treat everyone, there are rabid nutters everywhere who will rage against you on account of taking a position that challenges/or shatters their raison d'etre. You're being subjected to it right now, as a matter of fact. It's a matter of taste that you choose to treat these people in a way that you feel makes them respect you. But I'm simply not convinced of why I should want the respect of these sorts.

But all you do know is Team Blue feces-flinging.

Well, you could say that - among other things. I also contributed a number of objective facts and observations that the non-nutters saw no reason to characterize that way.

Mick said...

John Bingham, author of the 14 Amendment:

"|[I] find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill], which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that ”every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is”, in the language of your Constitution itself, ”a natural born citizen”…. "

Vattels Law of Nations:

"The Natives, or natural born Citizens, are those born in a country of it's Citizens"


Minor v. Happersett and Wong Kim Ark:

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. "


Pretty plain to see that Obama, born British is ALREADY ineligible, by his own story, no matter if born in the Oval Office. His dad was Kenyan, never US Citizen, and passed Obama 1 British Citizenship.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Because it concerns matters of law, it is not worth engaging? Why on earth would that be? I would think that matters of fact concerning the law regarding the President's eligibility for office would be much more worthwhile to engage than somebody's personal beliefs.

Even lawyers have standards that require an empirical, rather than just theoretical basis. If there was anything close to the evidence required to file suit or proceed further, that would have happened. There wasn't, and it didn't, and therefore, all that remains is the spectacle that is being dishonorably furthered and that should not be engaged among anyone with respectable standing in our politics or media.

QED.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@edutcher:

But it still makes an interesting question, why CT?

Area numbers are issued at SSA's convenience. A list of the area numbers can be found here:

http://www.usrecordsearch.com/ssn.htm

It used to be that you didn't need an SSN for a child without an income. He probably applied for his SSN later than most people would have.

Mick said...

Obama Sr. passed Obama 2 British Citizenship, thus not natural born and not eligible.

Mick said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

"Because it concerns matters of law, it is not worth engaging? Why on earth would that be? I would think that matters of fact concerning the law regarding the President's eligibility for office would be much more worthwhile to engage than somebody's personal beliefs.

Even lawyers have standards that require an empirical, rather than just theoretical basis. If there was anything close to the evidence required to file suit or proceed further, that would have happened. There wasn't, and it didn't, and therefore, all that remains is the spectacle that is being dishonorably furthered and that should not be engaged among anyone with respectable standing in our politics or media."




How does it feel to be a bootlicking Obama internet operative? To aid in treason against this country?

Freeman Hunt said...

The press already DID engage on this, and this is why the state government said they had seen the birth certificate. They did take the trouble to refute it. They have refuted it for all reasonable people who have any factual of knowledge of what birth certificates and how they work, as opposed to standards that they just make up.

No, they didn't. No one in the press has claimed to have seen the original birth certificate.

My "original" birth certificate is not even available to me. It may no longer exist, because I was adopted, but even if it does I cannot demand to see it or have it "released".

Obama was not adopted, and his original birth certificate can be assumed to exist with all the rest of them from the same time period.

I completely agree with you that the whole thing is silly. But it's a belief that has seeped into the mainstream. It's not just a bunch of fringe die-hards that believe this anymore.

The same poll that showed a quarter of Americans thinking he was born elsewhere, showed four in ten at least not being sure where he was born. That's not good. It should be addressed. You might have some fanatics not convinced by anything, but I don't think that's true of the general public.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

How does it feel to be a bootlicking Obama internet operative? To aid in treason against this country?

I suppose this is an example of the sort of worthy heart and mind I'm supposed to change. Oh well.

I'll try to be more selective in whom I respond to in order to stay polite, per Mojo's (and Hanna's) advice. There comes a point when everything worth saying has already been said. I (and the evidence and decent arguments) can only do so much.

Freeman Hunt said...

Obama already satisfied the law. You think he is obligated to satisfy laws that are made up by crazy people?

Of course not. We're talking about the media, not a court.

Mick said...

Freeman Hunt said...

"Obama already satisfied the law. You think he is obligated to satisfy laws that are made up by crazy people?

Of course not. We're talking about the media, not a court."




Obama never satisfied any "law", never "submitted his BC to ANY authority. A pic on a website is proof of nothing.

Freeman Hunt said...

Even lawyers have standards that require an empirical, rather than just theoretical basis. If there was anything close to the evidence required to file suit or proceed further, that would have happened. There wasn't, and it didn't, and therefore, all that remains is the spectacle that is being dishonorably furthered and that should not be engaged among anyone with respectable standing in our politics or media.

Again, we're not talking about a court of law. We're talking about the press.

The idea that the press cannot report on matters with possible legal implications until a case goes forward is absurd on its face.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Again, we're not talking about a court of law. We're talking about the press.

Is it not crazy for the media to engage something that is only being pursued for how it could change our country through legal means, when there is no evidentiary basis for any legal action? We ARE talking about the press. And you think the press should not have sufficient knowledge of or respect for the law to avoid acting on and directing their coverage on the basis of, the threat of FAKE lawsuits?

Here's a solution: Let's have a competing, FAKE media that will concern itself with the threat of FAKE lawsuits built on the idea of pursuing FAKE evidence. Oh, wait...

MadisonMan said...

Translation:

Obama got special treatment that I didn't get, and I want it because I'm Donald Trump.

AllenS said...

I was born in Detroit, MI in 1946. I received my SSN from Minnesota sometime when I was a teenager. They do things differently now.

Mr. Hanna, you made a convincing case of someone being adopted having a birth certificate containing his/her adopted name only, if obama was adopted, shouldn't his birth certificate indicate his adopted name then?

EnigmatiCore said...

There will be no squelching of free speech and free opinion in this forum.

Didn't you make a call on Althouse to delete a comment earlier in this thread?

(And, I might add, not understanding Titus' performance art. Granted, it not my cup of tea...)

EnigmatiCore said...

How does it feel to be a bootlicking Obama internet operative? To aid in treason against this country?

If one is supportive of Obama, then one is aiding in treason to this country?

How, exactly, are you any different than the Bushitler crowd?

Hagar said...

Freeman,
Obama was adopted, which is why he went by Barry Soetero before he reverted to his birth name.

However, that is neither here nor there at this point. The press is playing up the "birthers" in order to associate Republicans with "wingnuts" in the public's mind, and that is about all there is to it.

Donald Trump owns the "Miss America" pageant. Need I say more?

MikeR said...

I have to admit that it's embarrassing that Trump is being treated as a serious candidate. Of course, maybe he isn't.

AllenS said...

MikeR, they laughed at Jesse Ventura too, and look what happened.

AllenS said...

Famous Ventura quote: "Holy shit, we won."

Ut said...

"Obama was not adopted, and his original birth certificate can be assumed to exist with all the rest of them from the same time period.

I have a better idea. Let's not assume anything.

Let's see it.

Show me.

Barack Obama wasn't born in Hawaii. He's not an American citizen. That's why he can't produce an original long-form birth certificate.

One doesn't exist.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Freeman:

The same poll that showed a quarter of Americans thinking he was born elsewhere, showed four in ten at least not being sure where he was born. That's not good. It should be addressed. You might have some fanatics not convinced by anything, but I don't think that's true of the general public.

So where does it end? Similar percentages of Americans believe in UFOs and astrology. The reasonableness of a proposition is not affected by the number of fools who believe it, or don't.

So how much nonsense do we have to spend our time on, simply because you can find 25% of Americans who think there might be something to it?

Gabriel Hanna said...

@AllenS:

if obama was adopted, shouldn't his birth certificate indicate his adopted name then?

If he had been in a closed adoption in the US, that would have happened. But Obama was not legally adopted, he just had a stepfather.

Mick said...

Ut said...

"Obama was not adopted, and his original birth certificate can be assumed to exist with all the rest of them from the same time period.

I have a better idea. Let's not assume anything.

Let's see it.

Show me.

Barack Obama wasn't born in Hawaii. He's not an American citizen. That's why he can't produce an original long-form birth certificate.

One doesn't exist."


The question is whether Obama is a natural born Citizen, not "citizen"
The birth story Obama has told, of his birth to a Kenyan father, already eliminates his eligibility as a natural born Citizen. He was born British. Do you really think the foundres would have considered someone born British (except themselves, thus the grandfather clause: "or a citizen at the time...") to be eligibile to be CIC of the US armed forces? It is just silly to even think so.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

Ut said...

"Similar percentages of Americans believe in UFOs and astrology."

Barack Obama has refused to release his long-form original birth certificiate, citing privacy concerns. He claims one exists.

This isn't about a conspiracy. It's about Mr. Obama's refusal to produce his papers.

Sound Nazi-like?

Well, Obama forces US to produce OUR papers ... every time we get a job we have to file a new I-9 form proving who we are and where we were born.

He should have to produce his papers, too.

But he's refusing.

What is he hiding, and why is he hiding it? It's unfair and unreasonable and un-Presidential.

Does he think he is above the law?

Ut said...

@gabriel

Keep fucking that chicken, dude.

Mick said...

Gabriel Hanna said...

"@Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU."


There has been NOTHING "submitted" by Obama. A pic on a website proves nothing.

Ut said...

"So how much nonsense do we have to spend our time on, simply because you can find 25% of Americans who think there might be something to it?"

Nobody's holding a gun to your head forcing you to spend time discussing this with us.

You could ... for example ... go fuck yourself instead.

If you're "tired" of debating this issue, then leave us to discuss it and you go do something else.

Conserve Liberty said...

Hmm. Lots of vitriol on this thread.

Cutting through it, this argument could be ended in 10 seconds. Produce the document.

Otherwise this meme, as was attacking the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, is nothing more than a sophisticated Alinsky stratagem to divert attention from the real transformative actions.

Mick said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

"How does it feel to be a bootlicking Obama internet operative? To aid in treason against this country?

I suppose this is an example of the sort of worthy heart and mind I'm supposed to change. Oh well.

I'll try to be more selective in whom I respond to in order to stay polite, per Mojo's (and Hanna's) advice. There comes a point when everything worth saying has already been said. I (and the evidence and decent arguments) can only do so much."



Perfect example of the Obama Internet Cy Ops, inventing supposed "conservatives" on the internet to bash "birthers" as unconstructive and crazy (typical Alinsky). WHERE does it say that one born of foreign citizenship can be CIC of the US Armed forces?

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

You don't get to conjure laws out of thin air. You are a liar, making stuff up.

I have repeatedly requested evidence backing your postion. You have none, so you don't give any.

Pretty obvious.

Ut said...

"Otherwise this meme, as was attacking the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, is nothing more than a sophisticated Alinsky stratagem to divert attention from the real transformative actions."

This meme is about transforming page view counts on a slow news Sunday.

Every thread on this topic is guaranteed to garner 200 comments from Ritmo and his gang of spammers and thus about 4,000 page views.

It's all about the page views.

They don't even realize they're being manipulated.

Ut said...

@gabriel

Keep fucking that chicken, dude.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

You've spent hours talking about Obama's penis and golf clubs. You had time insult me. you don;t have time to search Google for a court case that would provide evidence for this imaginary standard you invented?

Why is that Ut?

Because you got nothing. You have no evidence. You just repeat the same lie over and over hoping it sticks.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Ut:

Well, Obama forces US to produce OUR papers ... every time we get a job we have to file a new I-9 form proving who we are and where we were born.

He should have to produce his papers, too.


He produced the same one that you produce for an I-9, genius.

Why doesn't that fulfill any and all legal requirements then?

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

Mick said...

Gabriel Hanna said...

" @Ut:

Cite an actual court rejecting the state-issued birth certificate and demanding the sekrit "longform" you invented, or STFU.

You've spent hours talking about Obama's penis and golf clubs. You had time insult me. you don;t have time to search Google for a court case that would provide evidence for this imaginary standard you invented?

Why is that Ut?

Because you got nothing. You have no evidence. You just repeat the same lie over and over hoping it sticks."


No evidence is needed. Obama has NEVER submitted any evidence to ANY authority that he was born in Hi. a pic on a website is proof of NOTHING. Regardless, he has already admitted his ineligibility by admitting to British Citizenship at birth, so he cannot be natural born, even if born in the White House.

Conserve Liberty said...

Ut said:

This meme is about transforming page view counts on a slow news Sunday.

Every thread on this topic is guaranteed to garner 200 comments from Ritmo and his gang of spammers and thus about 4,000 page views.

It's all about the page views.

They don't even realize they're being manipulated.


The vitriolic comments are amusing (if as obnoxious as Garage on other topics) - but the Media meme - complicit as the editors are - is about diverting attention.

Keep us arguing about a side issue - a personal character issue - while you transform (subvert) the republic under cover of darkness.

Read Rules for Radicals or Reveille for Radicals. This is Scary Stuff in that context.

Fen said...

I can't vouch for the source, but:

OBAMA'S SS NUMBER TRACED TO JOHN PAUL LUDWIG

"Barack Obama is residing today in the White House, using CT SS number 042-68-4425, issued in CT in and around March 1977 to an elderly individual named John Paul Ludwig, who was born in 1890, who is presumed dead and whose death was either never reported to the SS administration or reported and deleted from the database by someone."

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1438371/pg1#top

Fen said...

"Fact-check.org and a bunch of credible others..."

FactCheck also insisted that Obama was never in favor of Universal Health Care, when a simple google search provided 3 videos of Obama saying he did.

Stop falling for FactCheck just beacause they have "Fact" in their name.

mm said...

...the spokesman for the attorney general's office, said state law does not in fact permit the release of "vital records," including an original "record of live birth" — even to the individual whose birth it records.

"It's a Department of Health record and it can't be released to anybody," he said. Nor do state laws have any provision that authorizes such records to be photocopied, Wisch said. If Obama wanted to personally visit the state health department, he would be permitted to inspect his birth record, Wisch said.

But if he or anybody else wanted a copy of their birth records, they would be told to fill out the appropriate state form and receive back the same computer generated "certification of live birth" form that everybody else gets — which is exactly what Obama did four years ago


I wonder why Hawaii bothers to keep the orignal records, at all.

Lex said...

http://gawker.com/#!5790586/sarah-palin-supports-donald-trumps-birther-quest

What do you call 1000 Fetus of Doom nutters and 1000 Birther nutters at the bottom of the ocean?

TMink said...

Factcheck.org is owned and run by the Annenberg Foundation. The same foundation that President Obama worked for.

You do the math.

Trey

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I don't know if Hawaii has different rules than the rest of the United States (I doubt it) but...

A certificate of live birth is NOT the same thing as a certified birth certificate. In California, the first one means nothing. It is a cute thing that the hospital gives you and sometimes has the child's foot prints on it. I still have my daughter's certificate of live birth. It is not a legal document and cannot be used for any purpose.

You need to have a CERTIFIED birth certificate which is issued by the County in which you were born. It generally has a raised or embossed seal.

"A certified birth certificate has a registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar's signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office, which must be within 1 year of your birth."

The cost to get a CERTIFIED copy is minimal.

I don't see why Obama will not provide this, unless there is something embarassing on it....or it doesn't exist because Obama was likely hatched on a rock.

In any case. The Certificate of Live Birth is NOT the same thing as a Certified Birth Certificate.

Period.

Fen said...

One weird legal question: assume that Obama fraudulently gained the office of POTUS. Does that make everything he signed invalid?

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