April 1, 2011

"Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi on Friday denied a Department of Justice lawyer's effort to halt Friday's hearing..."

"Assistant Attorney General Maria Lazar told Sumi the hearing should be delayed because the accused lawmakers are immune from civil process; because the court lacks authority to interfere with legislation before it is published and takes effect; because absent lawmakers are being denied their due-process rights; and because the Legislature is a separate branch of government...."

294 comments:

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garage mahal said...

Wheels seem to be coming off the GOP bus. Kapanke recall sigs are being submitted today. Prosser's campaign co-chair quits and endorses Kloppenburg. sheesh.

MadisonMan said...

Today's State Journal Editorial.

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickelit said...

We need a new legal term: Sumiry Judgement

wv = "nonsim" Honest to blog, that's what I drew.

Tully said...

Assistant Attorney General Maria Lazar told Sumi the hearing should be delayed because the accused lawmakers are immune from civil process; because the court lacks authority to interfere with legislation before it is published and takes effect; because absent lawmakers are being denied their due-process rights; and because the Legislature is a separate branch of government.

Sumi denied all of the objections ...


"No, no!" said the Queen. "Sentence first - verdict afterwards."

Lem said...

..because the accused lawmakers are immune from civil process; because the court lacks authority to interfere with legislation before it is published and takes effect; because absent lawmakers are being denied their due-process rights; and because the Legislature is a separate branch of government...."

and I'm your lord.. so Sumi.

Sofa King said...

What a ridiculous case of judicial overreach.

Lem said...

Dont you know who I am?

I'm Sumi, master of all I survey.

rhhardin said...

What if she held a hearing and nobody came.

Quayle said...

So the leftists take back control of Wisconsin, perhaps.

But there still isn't any money.

That's the one end game that they can't talk, protest, corrupt, or cajole away.

There isn't any money.

They'll grab the steering wheel and point the car back toward the cliff.

rhhardin said...

The comedic tension is between the serious black robe and the clown act.

Meade said...

garage mahal said...
"Wheels seem to be coming off the GOP bus."

Remember how garage wanted the Pack to wear their away uniforms for the Super Bowl? A gambling state of Wisconsin could take every garage prediction, call Vegas, and put money on each contrary position and make enough millions to restore the Capitol and pay for all the police protection it took to keep the protesters "peaceful" and safe.

Thanks, garage!

edutcher said...

garage thinks the wheels are coming off.

His mechanic must think he's the gift that keeps on giving.

PS I still say Walker should do it the Chicago Way - just ignore her.

former law student said...

Assistant Attorney General Maria Lazar told Sumi the hearing should be delayed because the accused lawmakers are immune from civil process;

Wrong. In 1976 the Wis Sup Ct. held that legislators may be prosecuted for violations of the state open meetings law. State ex rel. Lynch v. Conta, 239 NW 2d 318 - Wis: Supreme Court (1976)

because the court lacks authority to interfere with legislation before it is published and takes effect;

Wrong. The Dane County district attorney prosecuted subcommittee members for violations of the state meeting law, which law says that measures passed by such meetings held in violation of the law are voidable by a court. State ex rel. Lynch v. Conta, 239 NW 2d 318 - Wis: Supreme Court (1976)

because absent lawmakers are being denied their due-process rights;

What does this even mean?

and because the Legislature is a separate branch of government.

The Wisconsin Supreme Court has the power to determine if the Legislature has exceeded its jurisdiction. In re Falvey, 7 Wis. 630 (1858).

hombre said...

Prosser's campaign co-chair quits and endorses Kloppenburg. sheesh.

It was not reflective of good judgment on Prosser's part to rely on the integrity of a Democrat politician.

madawaskan said...

Remember at the beginning of all the court proceedings almost all of us agreed-

Revote.

Well it looks like the Republicans are being strongly advised to do that in the certification of the 4th District Court of Appeals for several reasons.

(It is going to require a double post.)

***********

The District Attorney’s position—that revisions to the Open Meetings Law provide a wider range of available relief to remedy violations of the Open Meetings Law than were available at the time of Goodland—gains some support from the next case we highlight.

In the 1976 case, Lynch v. Conta, a district attorney sought a declaratory judgment regarding what types of meetings were included within the scope of the pre-1975 version of the Open Meetings Law in order to determine whether his office could bring a forfeiture action against legislators upon a verified complaint. Lynch, 71 Wis. 2d 662. In the course of its discussion, the Lynch court again addressed separation of powers concerns. It noted the general rule that “mere violations of parliamentary procedure are no grounds for voiding.4No. 2011AP613-LV
legislation.” Id. at 695.

The court contrasted that rule with the judiciary’s long established power to review the constitutionality of acts of the legislature, and concluded that there was “an area of uncertainty” regarding a court’s ability “to review the activity of a legislature for a violation of a statute duly enacted by it.” Id. (emphasis added). The court then reasoned that the legislature must have intended the Open Meetings Law to apply to legislators and legislative committees, because otherwise the specific statutory exceptions created for them would be superfluous. Id. at 698-99. Therefore, the court concluded, there was no separation of powers problem in actions seeking declaratory judgment and/or forfeitures against legislators for alleged violations of the Open Meetings Law. Id. Following Lynch, it might seem that questions about the enforceability of Open Meetings Law remedies against the legislature had been answered in favor of the District Attorney.

That brings us to State ex rel. La Follette v. Stitt, a case decided in 1983. In Stitt, the court considered its authority to review whether the legislature had failed to refer an act to the proper committee before passage. The Stitt court rejected any prior suggestion that it had the power to invalidate legislation based upon a violation of a “procedural” statutory provision in passing an act, unless the challenged procedure “constitutes a deprivation of constitutionally guaranteed rights.” Stitt, 114 Wis. 2d at 369. As in prior cases, the court cited the concepts of separation of powers and comity and reasoned that the legislature’s failure to follow procedural rules that were not constitutionally mandated amounted to an ad hoc repeal of its own rules. Id. at 365. The court further stated that its holding did not conflict with Lynch because that case did not address the voidability of legislative actions taken in violation of the Open Meetings Law. Id. at 368-69; see also Lynch, 71 Wis. 2d at 671.5
No. 2011AP613-LV

The Stitt court’s treatment of Lynch, in the course of broadly asserting the general rule that courts will not invalidate legislation based upon violations of procedural statutes, suggests that voidability is not an available option for a violation of the Open Meetings Law. Thus, Stitt seemingly weighs in favor of the Secretary of State’s position in this case. Nonetheless, Stitt did not involve an alleged violation of the Open Meetings Law and the court did not consider the implications of strong language in that law indicating a legislative intent to subject itself to the law.

Perhaps more significantly, the Stitt court did not consider whether the Open Meetings Law implicates a constitutional right of public access to legislative proceedings, something that appears to be key to the next decision we discuss.

(Cont.)

AprilApple said...

Sadly, Wisconsinites are entrenched in union mentality, and will probably swing hard left again. WI will sink further as a result, but they will at least have the emotional satisfaction that they saved their precious unions.

Lem said...

But judge, but judge.. you halted the law from taking effect.. what does it matter if they didn't use legal stationary or the font was wrong?

Its my hearing and I'll lie if I want to.

MadisonMan said...

Pack

That reminds me. The Green Bay Packers are the World Champions in Football, baby!

Maguro said...

Apparently this is going to be another thread where fls plays lawyer and tries to win the argument through sheer persistence and cut-n-paste volume.

MadisonMan said...

Ugh. I just looked out the window.

garage mahal said...

Thanks, garage!

I actually just posted what has already happened. I was wrong about the recalls though. I thought for sure Bed Hopper would be first.

I also just heard that the Madison City Clerk has already issued more absentee ballots for this election than for the 2008 Presidential election. Ruh roh!

enicar333 said...

The side that shouts the loudest - WINS!

Jeremy said...

Speaking of wheels coming off of a bus...looks like you teabagging fools are slowly circling the drain, too:

A CNN/Opinion Research survey showed that only 32 percent have a favorable view of the Tea Party, while 47 percent view it unfavorably. Seven percent said they have not heard of the Tea Party, and 14 percent said they have no opinion.

You're rapidly approcahing little Georgie Bush's disapproval ratings...

Meade said...

MadisonMan said...
"Ugh. I just looked out the window."

garage must've predicted abundant sunshine and dry balmy conditions.

Jeremy said...

Maguro said..."Apparently this is going to be another thread where fls plays lawyer and tries to win the argument through sheer persistence and cut-n-paste volume."

Instead of posting teabagger drivel, why not tell us where you think he's wrong?

Jeremy said...

Sofa King said..."What a ridiculous case of judicial overreach."

Can we assume you weren't awake during the 2000 presidential election?

Duh.

Meade said...

"You're rapidly approcahing little Georgie Bush's disapproval ratings..."

Or worse: Barry Soetoro's

Almost Ali said...

Gov. Walker is showing the Sumi court far more respect than it deserves. Apparently he's assuming the law itself will right the matter in due course. Maybe, maybe not, because in the end we're a nation of men, not laws.

Meanwhile, has anyone done the math on how many teachers Walker will have to be fire in order to bring the Wisconsin budget into balance? I seem to recall his original number, sans the repair bill, was 1,600 - although I believe that was a preliminary number.

Joe said...

So, is the liberal view now that anyone who wants to balance a governmental budget and ask that the government be fiscally responsible is a "teabagger"?

Sofa King said...

FLS:

Do you have a link to the text of Lynch?

Jeremy said...

Needy - Shouldn't you be outside harassing someone with your widdle camera?

You know that if you don't do your chores The Queen will be very angry, and you won't get your cookie tonight.

Now GET OUT THERE!!

enicar333 said...

and because the Legislature is a separate branch of government.

The Wisconsin Supreme Court has the power to determine if the Legislature has exceeded its jurisdiction. In re Falvey, 7 Wis. 630 (1858).

OPERATIVE WORD: Wisconsin Supreme Court, not Judge Sumi.

Drew said...

Gov. Walker is showing the Sumi court far more respect than it deserves. Apparently he's assuming the law itself will right the matter in due course.

That's what I assume. Otherwise I feel like the Walker Administration is just letting the Dem/Union coalition roll over them.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Shorter State Journal Editorial:

Republicans must hold themselves to the highest utmost standards of process and integrity.

Democrats and activists judges? Not so much.

Also, do they really believe that we wouldn't currently be experiencing some alternate form of Kabuki theater had Republicans given the 24hrs notice? If so, I think they're grossly underestimating their Democrat comrades.

traditionalguy said...

In the Civil War in Wisconsin is going into a final battle with Sumi's attempt to stop legislation by Judicial fiat. It's to bad that the Judiciary are the front line rebel troops. Judges should be followers of law and not lawless rebels.

former law student said...

Sofa: I don't have the link any more, but there are links to publicly available texts to all the relevant cases, in a comment on Volokh.

madawaskan said...

Remember when this courts first got involved and almost everyone thought the Republicans should-

Revote.

Well if you read the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals Certification to the Wisconsin Supreme Court...it looks like the Republicans should just revote.

See here:

*******************

In sum, Goodland and Stitt appear to favor the Secretary of State’s position that courts lack authority to invalidate legislation enacted in violation of the Open Meetings Law or, at the least, to do so before publication.

In contrast, Lynch and Milwaukee Journal Sentinel support the District Attorney’s view.
It appears to us that the central question presented by the petition and request for temporary relief is whether the Open Meetings Law’s express reliance on and reference to WIS. CONST. Art. IV, § 10 means that the statute should be interpreted as protecting a constitutional interest, thus subjecting alleged
violations by the legislature or subunits thereof to judicial review, as in Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

If the Open Meetings Law is not viewed as protecting a constitutional right, then it would appear, under Stitt, that a court would have no authority to void an act based upon an alleged violation. If, however, the legislature’s compliance with the Open Meetings Law is subject to judicial review in order to protect the underlying constitutional interests involved, the additional question arises whether such review may occur while the legislative process is still pending (under the Lynch rationale that the legislature consented to being subject to injunction), or must wait until the process has been completed with publication of an act under the Goodland rationale.
It is appropriate to certify to the Supreme Court appeals raising issues which that court might otherwise ultimately consider on a petition for review, in order to reduce the burden and expense of the appellate process on both the parties and the judicial system. See Wisconsin Public Serv. Corp. v. Public Service Comm’n of Wis., 176 Wis. 2d 955, 958 n.1, 501 N.W.2d 36, 37 n.1 (1993) (Abrahamson, J., concurring). Because this appeal presents significant issues, we believe that the Supreme Court is the proper forum for it.

Roger J. said...

The clown show continues apace in Wisconsin--it has to be the water

Jeremy said...

Joe said..."So, is the liberal view now that anyone who wants to balance a governmental budget and ask that the government be fiscally responsible is a "teabagger"?"

The reason states are in the situation they are directly relates to the fool you and others here voted for...twice.

Where were you when little Georgie and the GOP was running the show? He held the White House for eight years, the GOP held the majority for six of the eight.

Where were the teabaggers then...whining about "balancing the budget?"

PETER V. BELLA said...

@ Quayle

Just one word. Illinois!!!!!!!!

Tax, borrow, spend, borrow, tax, spend. Gotta keep those corrupt burons and educrats happy. Keep their union thugs pockets full of cash so they can keep bribing politicians.


Since it is an egregious conflict of interest, public employee unions should be prohibited from making campaign contributions.

enicar333 said...

As long as public employees have unions they should not be allowed to vote.

madawaskan said...

Remember when *the* courts first got involved.

Aridog said...

Jeremy whined: "Needy - Shouldn't you be outside harassing someone with your widdle camera?"

To paraphrase Louis Farrakan, J-dude: "Who the flip do you think you are?"

foxtrot said...

garage mahal:

"Wheels seem to be coming off the GOP bus. Kapanke recall sigs are being submitted today. Prosser's campaign co-chair quits and endorses Kloppenburg. sheesh."

And surely it wouldn't be because all of the asshole crybaby liberal politicians and judges in Madison have done everything possible to hijack the state government and place it directly in the hands of the unions and airheads like Kloppenburg. Looks like a political coup.

You really seem to think that the Democratic party has accomplished something special by screwing over generations of taxpayers.

garage mahal said...


garage must've predicted abundant sunshine and dry balmy conditions.


I'm 1-0 on political bets on this blog. Care to wager a friendly bet on next Tues?

Sofa King said...

FLS -

Thanks, I found the text. However, I have to call bullshit on your point above:

Wrong. The Dane County district attorney prosecuted subcommittee members for violations of the state meeting law, which law says that measures passed by such meetings held in violation of the law are voidable by a court. State ex rel. Lynch v. Conta, 239 NW 2d 318 - Wis: Supreme Court (1976)


Unless you want to be more specific with your cite, that authority does not back up that statement. In fact, the Court explicitly DID NOT consider the propriety of "voidability."

"The petitioner here seeks a construction of the law apparently for enforcement purposes and thus consideration cannot be given to such additional aspects as the "voidability" provision." Lynch, 71 Wis.2d 662 at 671.

Sofa King said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
EDH said...

Instead of posting teabagger drivel, why not tell us where you think [fls is] wrong?

Was the Open Meetings Law ever used against legilsators to block legislation passed by the legislature, or applied only when legislative committees failed to adhere to the rule when conducting public hearings and, you know, "public meetings"?

garage mahal said...

@foxtrot
Why don't Republicans just re-notice and re-vote the bill is there is so much bias in the courts? That's what I would do. If I had the votes for it that is.

madawaskan said...

former law student

Well that's just it.

The 4th District Court of Appeals said that there is a conflict between Lynch and Goodland and only the Wisconsin Supreme Court can settle it.

Problem is the Republicans are probably about to lose their 5-4 advantage...on the Supreme Court.

They need to quit being so damn stubborn and revote.

Roger J. said...

The good citizens of wisconsin are getting what they want.

Fortunately other states are acting without nearly the brouhaha that wisconsin seems to have spawned--Ohio, TN and Indiana eg are gutting public sector unions. Taking the state away as the collector of union does will IMO show that union members really dont care for unions. But time will tell

madawaskan said...

In Goodland v. Zimmerman, the court held that a circuit court lacked authority to enjoin the secretary of state from publishing an act on grounds that the act had not been constitutionally enacted and that it provided for an unconstitutional delegation of power. Goodland, 243 Wis. at 477. The court reasoned that the legislative process is not complete until an enactment is published and that the judiciary had “no jurisdiction or right to interfere with the legislative process.” Id. at 466-67. The Goodland court wrote: “If a court can intervene and prohibit the publication of an act ... it invades the constitutional power of the legislature to declare what shall become law.” Id. at 468.

*****

The Republicans need to quit being so stubborn and simply revote.

foxtrot said...

Jeremy says:

"Where were you when little Georgie and the GOP was running the show? He held the White House for eight years, the GOP held the majority for six of the eight."

So...following your logic, it is justifiable for Obama to spend even more than Bush for equally stupid reasons?

Obama was elected under the premise of correcting Bush's errors. What has Obama changed or improved about this country? You laugh at the GOP, but how is Obama really that different than Bush?

Sofa King said...

Garage Prediction:

Ok, I'm predicting Repubs pick up 18 seats in the House, and 3 in the Senate. There, I'm on record.

foxtrot said...

garage says:

"Why don't Republicans just re-notice and re-vote the bill is there is so much bias in the courts? That's what I would do. If I had the votes for it that is."

Well...I'm sure that idea has crossed their minds...oh but wait, the Democrats will probably run away again or resort to some other bullshit stunt to impede the legislation.

garage mahal said...

Well...I'm sure that idea has crossed their minds...oh but wait, the Democrats will probably run away again or resort to some other bullshit stunt to impede the legislation.

So the GOP isn't going to hold another vote again? Actually I like that idea.

Brennan said...

The court reasoned that the legislative process is not complete until an enactment is published and that the judiciary had “no jurisdiction or right to interfere with the legislative process.”

Judge Sumi knows exactly what she's doing. She knows her decision will be overturned. I doubt she cares. A mere delay of the law pulls all the marionette strings before an election.

Legally, keep fighting Sumi in court.

Politically, revote, if you've got the votes. Although, I'd revote anyway even if you don't have the votes. The public should be aware of what type of threatening tactics the entrenched forces of public employee unions will wield to protect their turf.

Michael said...

Jeremy, was George Bush the governor of Wisconsin? I thought Texas. How could GWB be responsible for Wisconsin's pension mess?

madawaskan said...

EDH

It seems that the relevant cases are according to the 4th;

Goodland v. Zimmerman,and State ex rel. La Follette v. Stitt, favor the Van Hollen's the Republican's point of view-and-

Lynch v. Conta, and Milwaukee Journal Sentinel v. Wisconsin Dept. of Admin favor the arguments made by the D.A. Ismael Ozanne for the Democrats.

Roger J. said...

The good citizens (actually a bunch of stupid MFs) will get what they deserve--crushing tax rates, no services and ultimately bankruptcy.

fuck them all

Sofa King said...

They won't revote because they don't have to, and they have almost nothing to gain by doing so (since the legislation will *still* be held up by legal challenges.) Furthermore, this may be a matter of principle: they actually do believe they followed the law, and that the judiciary is encroaching on the legislature, and not want to effectively admit guilt by circumventing adjudication.

madawaskan said...

Brennan

Politically, revote.

Yep. Republicans have a hard time with this aspect-I don't know what the hell it is.

B said...

former law student said...

Wrong...yada yada

lawgirl blew your nonsense out of the water in another thread. You couldn't and didn't even try to address her repeated requests that you defend how this nonsense applies given the facts on the ground.

You haven't even a passing acquaintance with logic, binky.

The Grand Inquisitor said...

I have little doubt the Prosser is going to be steamrolled.

He's a judge, and judges make poor politicians. A political machine is overrunning a judicial election by tying it to a specific outcome in a specific case. The kind of people who will vote based on this are liberals. Conservatives will vote for political outcomes in legislative elections, but prefer judges who aren't activists.

so yeah, Prosser is screwed.

But Wisconsin will become more conservative in the legislature, and hopefully will reform their judicial system if the democrats continue their horrible corruption.

Sumi is a great example.

This is the reason they aren't revoting. They were right. They didn't violate any open meetings laws, which, after all, lack the power to prevent future legislation if they aren't constitutional amendments, have an exception for votes on public employee compensation, and allow for exceptions for special circumstances such as the democrat caused anarchy.

They could vote again, but what's the point, if a Madison Judge will lie to swat it down? That's just endless drama and agitation, which is all the democrats are hoping for. They want to show Wisconsin that Walker can't lead, and so they will act egregiously and cause as much anarchy as possible. That's why democrats hoping to run for Governor are hiding. They don't want to be associated with the union led anarchy.

This is an intelligence test for Wisconsin.

Michael said...

The more I have observed the situation in Wisconsin the more I think that the unions should run the whole show. It is such an unattractive place inhabited by such unattractive and clueless and humorless people that it would make a great first union state where everyone, every man woman and child worked for the state, was paid by the state and watched each other and made up rules for each other. Because you cannot get out of your own way.

edutcher said...

Jeremy said...

Joe said..."So, is the liberal view now that anyone who wants to balance a governmental budget and ask that the government be fiscally responsible is a "teabagger"?"

The reason states are in the situation they are directly relates to the fool you and others here voted for...twice.

Where were you when little Georgie and the GOP was running the show? He held the White House for eight years, the GOP held the majority for six of the eight.

Where were the teabaggers then...whining about "balancing the budget?"


As usual, he doesn't get it. The states are in this mess because of what they did, not what happened at the Federal level. The Feds never told the states to unionize their public employees and cave in to all their demands in exchange for huge campaign contributions to the Demos. That little bit of stupidity was all their own.

And, as for Dubya, Little Zero spent as much in one year as Dubya did in eight. If Jeremy and Zero think we're in a hole and want to get out, someone should tell them both that the first thing one does in such a situation is stop digging.

But you can't expect Leftists to have that sort of intelligence.

Trooper York said...

Wait the Obama Justice department wants to enforce the law impartially....that can't be....oh....that's right.

APRIL FOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trooper York said...

It wasn't the Federal Dept of Justice. Thank God.

All is right with the world.

Brennan said...

"He held the White House for eight years, the GOP held the majority for six of the eight."

That is not accurate. The Democrats controlled the Senate from 2001-2003 due to the defection of Senator Jim Jeffords to the Independents. The GOP only controlled the Senate and the House from 2003-2007.

AllenS said...

Yeah, why worry about the deficit/debt that Wisconsin has. Wait until it gets worse. Then what? Raise taxes? In my little part of WI three employers have packed their bags and moved out of state. Great, just fucking great.

madawaskan said...

Sofa King

this may be a matter of principle

Believe me I've heard that "principle" argument from Republicans and Conservatives many times.

It's how they lose.

I do see where it might be a "madhouse" in Madison to revote-but if they had done it right away while the kiddos were on Spring Break.

I don't see how this does not end up in the WI Supreme Court and on April 5th the Republicans are going to lose Prosser-most likely.

Sofa King said...

madaw -

Even if Prosser loses the election, he will be on the Court for most of the rest of the year.

Brennan said...

It's how they lose.

Yep. Parties can be rebuilt. The party of slavery, the Democrats, are still alive, kicking and screaming.

Individuals upholding principle will come and go. Eventually you learn that the battle is so long it takes more than one life to wage it.

lawyapalooza said...

"Sadly, Wisconsinites are entrenched in union mentality, and will probably swing hard left again. WI will sink further as a result, but they will at least have the emotional satisfaction that they saved their precious unions."

Gosh, Wisconsin is so horrible! Look at the top ACT grades of its students! Why yes, that is another award for best places to live! Gee, what a low crime rate you have, Cheeseheads!

And to top it off, our Green Bay Packer Union brothers won it all.

When everyone pays their fair share--including corporations and teh wealthy, we are all--as Charlie Sheen would say-- WINNING!

madawaskan said...

The Grand Inquisitor-

They could vote again, but what's the point, if a Madison Judge will lie to swat it down? That's just endless drama and agitation, which is all the democrats are hoping for.

Ya....I think that's why they actually had to maneuver to publish the damn thing because then the Democrats would have the Republicans by the statutory requirement which states that they have to publish the law in 10 days.

What I think the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals is signaling to the Republicans is that they don't want to-or the WI Supreme Court should not want to rule in favor of essentially-

"mob rule".

IOW letting the disorder of the Democrats somehow cause the orderly proceedings of the Legislature to be rendered ineffective...

The only problem is I don't think there is any precedent for that kind of mob action in Wisconsin.

You'd have to argue by analogy if you are the Republicans.

*If* the Republicans could get the federal Circuit Court of Appeals which I think is the 7th IIRC to hear the case-then that is a "conservative" court....

But-there's a possibly they would see this as simply a "state" of Wisconsin matter.

They need to revote.

enicar333 said...

Some of us find the path of crushing tax rates, no services and ultimately bankruptcy as the path to freedom and a new paradigm. It is good that during the ensuing collapse most can't imagine life without the system, so they won't be around to interfere with the new beginning. There won't be room for them anyways.

Trooper York said...

The only reason that the Fudge Packers won is the socialistic format of the NFL which shares revenues equally even though it is not earned that way. That is why there will be a strike, the small market teams are demanding more of the pie and the overpaid players will not give it up. So there will be no football next year because of the Green Bay Packers!

Carol_Herman said...

Justices became active when Felix Frankfurter's (bad) Gobitus decision got dissed by Hugo Black. And, you began your ride on the "individual rights" express.

I see what Sumi wants to do. And, I see her doing it BEFORE April 5th.

It's easy to become a judge, by the way, you just have to know when to put your kneepads on. And, by then, you're picking one side. Or the other.

Now, if Haarvahd's degree gets to be worth less (though not worthless), what law school would come in to seize the breach?

Wisoncon's Supreme Court is now up for grabs.

It's as if in American politics both sides need to wear Special Olympics helmets when they go outside to play.

Wish it weren't so. Where wishing doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Heck, Sumi is aiming straight at all this publicity. Meanwhile the attorneys on the case? She's got the power to see them disbarred.

What kinds of solutions are out there for this? You think Sumi is the only loony? You didn't see Instapundit today ... with Donna Murphy, already SANCTIONED for misbehaviors, heading into a Federal Judgeship?

Man, every day that passes, Donald Trump looks better and better! I can see him giving a whole shaft (class?) of people the "YOU'RE FIRED" sign. Made worse when he strips budgets off of the backs of some "contendah's."

Well, this is just my opinion. And, at Barnett, Frankurter met his Waterloo. From Gobitis to Barnett's reversal just took the Supreme's two years.

WV: "ringle" What a cell phone does in your pants pocket.

lawyapalooza said...

"Meanwhile, has anyone done the math on how many teachers Walker will have to be fire in order to bring the Wisconsin budget into balance? I seem to recall his original number, sans the repair bill, was 1,600 - although I believe that was a preliminary number."


The number = 0. Didn't you listen to Scotty boy's conversation with "Koch?" He admitted they were making shit up to scare people. There are plenty of ways to balance the budget without attacking the middle class. Maybe, just maybe, these guys will learn to at least listen and then bring their case to teh people rather than ramming it through with no discussion. Or else they'll see a big change in 2012, if not earlier.

Trooper York said...

Wellington Mara made a big mistake when he agreed to revenue sharing.

Brennan said...

Yea. 7th is "conservative", but the judges are all approved by the Senator Paul Simons of the world.

madawaskan said...

Sofa King

Even if Prosser loses the election, he will be on the Court for most of the rest of the year.

Cripes I'm so out of it I didn't know that-missin' the forest for the trees and all that.

************

Brennan

Eventually you learn that the battle is so long it takes more than one life to wage it.

True. Still I think the Republicans every once in awhile could use some-*street sense*...

enicar333 said...

TGI - It's CHAOS, not Anarchy. I like anarchy. Not a fan of religion, but Anarchy is described in the Old Testament, before the establishment of Kings. The people agreed to , and enforced the laws, very little government, no central ruler; god warned them they would come to regret having a king placed over them. Still true.

MadisonMan said...

So there will be no football next year because of the Green Bay Packers!

The Green Bay Packers will be champions for more than a year! Woo Hoo!

madawaskan said...

The only reason that the Fudge Packers won is the socialistic format of the NFL which shares revenues equally even though it is not earned that way. That is why there will be a strike, the small market teams are demanding more of the pie and the overpaid players will not give it up. So there will be no football next year because of the Green Bay Packers!.

Works for me-

Steeeeeelers!

Speaking of missin' the forest for the trees I just learned last night that my man Hines Ward is on Dancin' with the Stars.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Even assuming that Judge Sumi has juridiction, and can interfere with the publishing of the act, and that there was an open meetings violations, how can she justify voiding the action of the committee? The open meetings law states:

19.97 (3) Any action taken at a meeting of a governmental body held in violation of this subchapter is voidable, upon action brought by the attorney general or the district attorney of the county wherein the violation occurred. However, any judgment declaring such action void shall not be entered unless the court finds, under the facts of the particular case, that the public interest in the enforcement of this subchapter outweighs any public interest which there may be in sustaining the validity of the action taken.

So what public interest is there in the enforcement of this subchapter? The purpose of the open meetings law is to ensure that the public has "...the fullest and most complete information regarding the affairs of government...". Did this supposed violation of the open meetings law deny the public any information regarting the affairs of government? Everyone knew what the Republicans were doing, and how they would vote. After the committee meeting the measure went on to both houses to be voted on, and those meetings complied with the open meetings law.

It will be interesting to see how Judge Sumi tries to justify this action.

Phil 3:14 said...

I'm a little surprised no one on the left has voiced a long term concern, re: legislative flight.

Gosh, if this works what does that say about any feisty minority and its desire to stop new legislation

There was a name for this in the '60's

Mutually Assured Destruction

lawyapalooza said...

"The Wisconsin Supreme Court has the power to determine if the Legislature has exceeded its jurisdiction. In re Falvey, 7 Wis. 630 (1858)."

Good one! Except for a wee problem. This is a writ of habeas corpus which at that time went directly the the supreme court. Nowhere in this decision does it say they have exclusive jurisdiction. Nice try though, 1L! (not really)

B said...

"garage mahal said...
Wheels seem to be coming off the GOP bus. Kapanke recall sigs are being submitted today."

And this means? I've noticed that whenever you crow about the signature gathering, you seem to believe that alone is the fait accompli.

First, the signatures - every one - have to be crosschecked against registered voters in that district. No made up addresses, no made up names. And if any names are there fraudulently, they are striken also. Better hope that the total desn't go below the benchmark number, because if it does, the whole process has to be repeated. The list as is cannot just be resubmitted with additional names.

Say you meet the requirement. Then you have to come up with a viable candidate to run in a special election against the incumbent. Who can easily make the election about responsible representation, not mob rule. Better hope that if there's a debate and the incumbent asks the challenger how he or she feels about the 14 jokers who fled the state rather than provide that responsible representation, a good answer is forthcoming.

Fred4Pres said...

Statists must think it is May 1.

madawaskan said...

It will be interesting to see how Judge Sumi tries to justify this action.

Lynch v. Conta.

The Republicans can counter with-

Goodland v. Zimmerman

That's why it needs to go to the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

lawyapalooza said...

"They won't revote because they don't have to, and they have almost nothing to gain by doing so (since the legislation will *still* be held up by legal challenges.) Furthermore, this may be a matter of principle: they actually do believe they followed the law, and that the judiciary is encroaching on the legislature, and not want to effectively admit guilt by circumventing adjudication."


One of the (unintentionally, I presume) funniest quotes of the day! The reason they won;t re-vote is because now that people have read the 1,000+ plus bill, they don't have the votes!!!

My goodness.

Trooper York said...

Well it is true that the Packers will repeat as Champions this year is if there is no football.

It the same way those Democratic senators could say they won the election, by running away so the legislature couldn't vote.

It must be a Wisconsin thing.

damikesc said...

Why doesn't Walker just fire 2,000 teachers and keep firing more each month?

Screw all of them. WI is going to go down the shitter...but it don't impact me, so I will sit back and enjoy the show.

Have fun imploding, idiots.

Trooper York said...

Plus I bet you 2-1 that Hines Ward drops his partner. Just sayn'

damikesc said...

lawya: Gosh, Wisconsin is so horrible! Look at the top ACT grades of its students! Why yes, that is another award for best places to live! Gee, what a low crime rate you have, Cheeseheads!


Given that the state is so lily-white that it becomes invisible in a snowstorm, that is hardly a surprise. It has already been demonstrated, convincingly, that TX does a markedly better job of teaching students than WI does.

Their numbers are worse because, unlike WI, minorities also live there and if you judge any study of standardized testing, the same groups are always on top and other groups are always on bottom.

Trooper York said...

Plus "Dancing With the Stars" is old news. Lawernce Taylor already been there done dat.

This year LT is starring on "To Catch a Predator."

hombre said...

lawyapalooka wrote: When everyone pays their fair share--including corporations and teh wealthy, we are all--as Charlie Sheen would say-- WINNING!

Fair share?

Let's see the U.S. has the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world. Corporate employees, officers and shareholders also pay taxes indirectly on corporate income.

The top five per cent of taxpayers pay roughly 60% of the taxes, while 50% of our population pay no taxes.

So what have you been smokin', Charlie? Or is it Karl?

madawaskan said...

Well not if she hits him in the breadbasket...

I mean at least he's not going to shoot himself in the thigh....

Jeremy said...

Fox With The Trots - "You really seem to think that the Democratic party has accomplished something special by screwing over generations of taxpayers."

The Democrats establish the taxes paid by Americans?

Duh.

Trooper York said...

Hey leave Plaxic alone.

He will be appearing on "Hard Core Pawn" when he pawns his Super Bowl ring. And his gat.

Coketown said...

I can solve this impasse between the state AG and Judge "Sumo Smash" Sumi. I'll need a drum of grease, a kiddie pool, over-sized boxing gloves, and white t-shirts.

Plan B is a roller derby.

Alex said...

What can I say. Wisconsin - you're fucked.

damikesc said...

Heck, give the unions EVERYTHING they want.

Let WI default on all debt.

Let the blood flow.

It will be fun for the rest of us to watch, at least.

Unions losing their benefits will be endlessly hilarious --- and there is, literally, no chance whatsoever of you being bailed out.

HA HA HA HA!

Jeremy said...

Allen-Duh "In my little part of WI three employers have packed their bags and moved out of state. Great, just fucking great."

Any chance you can hitch a ride?

*And see if Petey The Dunce can come along.

The Grand Inquisitor said...

"and there is, literally, no chance whatsoever of you being bailed out."

You sure about that?

I wonder how much stimulus money remains ready for Obama to send to union bailouts.

And what's to stop him from lawlessly sending them money regardless? The Senate? The Supreme Court?

No... these people have a longer plan which includes a federal bailout and inflation to pay for it, basically hoping to steal from the lost value of all Americans.

Since entitlements are tied to COLA, this is not going to fix anything, but it will be effective wealth transfer that harms the people who ultimately fuel the economy.

Jeremy said...

educher - "As usual, he doesn't get it. The states are in this mess because of what they did, not what happened at the Federal level."

So the economic and real estate meltdown has no bearing on what's happening throughout the country?

The massive loss of tax revenue is irrelevant?

It's all because of the unions?

Duh.

AprilApple said...

The middle class is out of work. The unions were asked to pay a tiny bit of their own retirements and healthcare and all hell broke loose. Collective bargaining and the public sector union is simply a political payback game that forces union workers to pay dues for democrats.

Tax tax tax – that will solve everything. The middle class is still out of work.

garage mahal said...

I've noticed that whenever you crow about the signature gathering, you seem to believe that alone is the fait accompli.

No of course not. I do find it fairly remarkable that there are 1-2 recalls completed before the bill that triggered the recalls is even enacted.

damikesc said...

T.G.I: You sure about that?

GOP agreeing to a bailout caused by public unions? Yeah, I'll pretty well guarantee that there is, literally, no shot at it happening.

T.G.I: And what's to stop him from lawlessly sending them money regardless? The Senate? The Supreme Court?


Obama can't spend a dime. The House has to approve. And they will not.

Alex said...

No... these people have a longer plan which includes a federal bailout and inflation to pay for it, basically hoping to steal from the lost value of all Americans.

One of the big parts of the master plan is to raid the nation's 401K accounts. Nothing will be off limits to the scumbags.

Jeremy said...

The Grand Fool - "I wonder how much stimulus money remains ready for Obama to send to union bailouts. And what's to stop him from lawlessly sending them money regardless? The Senate? The Supreme Court?"

Yeah, as usual, somehow president Obama has something to do wiht all of this. He's just waiting in the wings, ready and able to "bail out the unions."

Where do you idiots come up with this insanity?

enicar333 said...

damikesc - It gets pretty dark here in Racine, Kenosha, Milwaukee area.

Before you get so smug, looks like Texas is facing 600,000 job losses in the next 2 years.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/24/news/economy/texas_budget_jobs/index.htm

The Grand Inquisitor said...

"The number = 0. Didn't you listen to Scotty boy's conversation with "Koch?" He admitted they were making shit up to scare people."

I see the left wants to repeat a lie endlessly until some people believe it, but indeed, without the budget repair, teachers will lose their jobs, and indeed, it won't be Walker's fault. This will be union member versus more junior union member, and they will pretend it's all the big bad Republican's fault.

The truth is there isn't enough money. Michael Moore can scream that they are awash in cash all day, but there isn't enough money for all the crap anyway.

Cynical partisans don't care about the next generation, already piled so high with debt they will never get the same entitlements the boomers have given themselves on the national credit card.

They just want to fight their partisan fight, collect their ill gotten goodies, and to hell with the rest of it. Cloward Piven Collapse!

AprilApple said...

Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest.

madawaskan said...

I Fought the Law and the Mob Won!

The Clash.

*******

DADvocate said...

accused lawmakers are immune from civil process;

Wrong. In 1976 the Wis Sup Ct. held that legislators may be prosecuted for violations of the state open meetings law.


Question - Civil proceedings are not prosecutions. Prosecutions are criminal proceedings. Which means the 1976 case isn't relevant to the current civil process. Or, am I misunderstanding or are you being careless with words?

JM Hanes said...

Apart from the issue of preemptive voidability, I'm not clear on how it could take so long simply to determine whether or not the legislators adhered to the required timeline or not.

Putting aside Sumi's putative political predispositions, can anyone tell me what the roadblock in that regard seems to be?

Michael said...

Hey FLS,

I looked up the case you cited. Keycite gives it a red flag, and indicates that the opinion is no longer good law because it has been superseded by statute. The relevant statutes have been rewritten or amended since that case. You should find some cases interpreting the statute that is actually the law now, instead of a case that interprets a statute that no longer exists.

Cindy Martin said...

No big deal. If Klop wins, the Repubs will redo the vote and a few more million will be spent on security for the capitol.

Sofa King said...

Putting aside Sumi's putative political predispositions, can anyone tell me what the roadblock in that regard seems to be?

There are still union contracts that need to be approved.

rhhardin said...

There's nothing special about pensions and health care. They're part of the cost of employment.

The problem is that unions are paid more than market wages, and unlike in the private sector, that do not end when the employer goes out of business, because the government does not go out of business.

One way to reduce the cost of employment is getting rid of bad employees and retaining good ones only. That's a work rule change.

Another way is to assign jobs that need to be done and not assign jobs that don't need to be done. That's another work rule change.

And so on.

The final way is to eliminate public employee unions entirely. Nobody can band together to prevent the state from hiring and firing whoever they want.

Which ought to be the rule in the private sector as well, if there were rule of law.

Brennan said...

"One of the big parts of the master plan is to raid the nation's 401K accounts. Nothing will be off limits to the scumbags."

Roth IRA. Pay the tax rates you know. It ain't worth it to wait and see what rates they make up in the future.

Jeremy said...

AprilApple said..."Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest."

99% of the people who post here on a regular basis think George W. Bush was a terrific president...

...so go figure.

Jeremy said...

rhhardin said..."The problem is that unions are paid more than market wages, and unlike in the private sector, that do not end when the employer goes out of business, because the government does not go out of business.

That's bullshit:

EPI: "Wisconsin Public Employees Earn 4.8% Less In Total Compensation Per Hour Than Comparable Full-Time Employees In Wisconsin's Private Sector."

A study published February 10, 2011, by the think tank Economic Policy Institute (EPI) found that when "comparisons controlling for education, experience," and other factors are taken into account, "Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation per hour than comparable full-time employees in Wisconsin's private sector."

On an annual basis, full-time state and local government employees in Wisconsin are undercompensated by 8.2% compared with otherwise similar private sector workers.

Alex said...

Jeremy - Bush did all he could in the face of an unprecedented hostile press and unprecedented hostile Democrat Party. He really did fulfill his fiduciary responsibilities as chief executive. If anything I'd criticize him for being too timid against scumbags like you who savaged him mercilessly for 8 years.

Mike K said...

"There are plenty of ways to balance the budget without attacking the middle class. "

This is the left's mantra at the national level, too. As the country, and the states, slid into bankruptcy, the Democrats will be pretending it isn't happening.

Getting old is not that great but it does have one benefit. I won't be around to experience what the Democrats are bringing to the country. That's not to say the Republicans didn't share but right now the last chance for a reasonable fix is slipping away.

Alex said...

On an annual basis, full-time state and local government employees in Wisconsin are undercompensated by 8.2% compared with otherwise similar private sector workers.

Why are you comparing private vs pubic pay packages? All that matters in this discussion is why unions are willing to offer NOTHING in the face of crushing deficits.

edutcher said...

Jeremy said...

educher - "As usual, he doesn't get it. The states are in this mess because of what they did, not what happened at the Federal level."

So the economic and real estate meltdown has no bearing on what's happening throughout the country?

The massive loss of tax revenue is irrelevant?

It's all because of the unions?

Duh.


Keep your Duhs to yourself. You'll sound less foolish

The states' problems are largely due to collusion between Democrats and the unions. States have to balance their budgets. With huge pensions and benefits, that becomes next to impossible.

If they didn't have to tax so much to pay off the unions, a lot of states wouldn't find themselves losing jobs and people to those areas where this nonsense doesn't happen.

Some states are riding out these times fairly well.

But they're the ones who haven't been raped by the Democrat Party and the public sector unions.

So the economic meltdown, brought to us by that other Ivy League genius of the Democrats, Willie the Serial Rapist in Chief, is no excuse for the states' dilemma.

Alex said...

How is going after the public sector unions, decreasing welfare and unemployment an attack on the middle class? If anything rolling back the state will preserve the middle class!

Just look at 3rd world commie banana republics like Bolivia. Worker's paradise with 1% owning 99% of the wealth and the 99% groveling for their daily bread. OH and nobody has an iPad.

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Drew said...

How proud the Democrats must be they are on the way to undoing last November's election. What we are seeing clearly in Wisconsin is that the only valid elections are those where Democrats win. Elections where Democrats lose will essentially be invalidated in the courts.

Weep for our state. Weep for the nation.

lawyapalooza said...

There are only 5 states that have outlawed collective bargaining for teachers: VA, NC, GA, TX, SC.

2010 SAT scores? Wisconsin 3rd in the country. Next highest of the above: VA at 34th.

2010 ACT scores: Wisconin 13th. Of the above, highest is Virginia again, at 22nd.

For 2010-11, 77.2 percent of all Wisconsin students scored proficient or advanced in mathematics, up from 72.8 percent in 2005-06. On the reading assessment, 83.0 percent of students scored proficient or advanced this year, up from 81.7 percent six years ago. While both percentages are up over six years, mathematics achievement has been improving more.

Browndog said...

Question:

Does a judge have to approve the language on the recall petition; and, do the signatures have to be Validated?

I know this is the case in other States.

Or does it even matter in Wisconsin anymore?

lawyapalooza said...

"Why are you comparing private vs pubic pay packages? All that matters in this discussion is why unions are willing to offer NOTHING in the face of crushing deficits."

See, now you look like a complete moron. The unions--every single one of them-- offered to take the financial concessions to help meet the budget problems. In fact, most of them have already bargained for those cuts.

If you think this is about the budget, you are naive. It is about the republicans trying to crush the one organized group that traditionally supports democrats, so that in the nect election, corporations can donate untold millions to their campaigns and for advertising, and the democrats will have a more difficult time matching dollars. THAT is what this is about!

garage mahal said...

How proud the Democrats must be they are on the way to undoing last November's election.

Republicans are recalling Dems too. Actually they filed first.

Sofa King said...

Palooza:

False.

Sofa King said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beta Rube said...

Here's an ad running in Milwaukee. The abuse victim and his brother that Prosser supposedly harmed by taking the perps side is speaking out.

http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/119063244.html?blog=y

Brennan said...

When comparing public to private compensation(wages, benefits, and pension/401k), most studies have no method for measuring the "cannot get fired" angle for public sector workers.

There is more on the EPI study of Wisconsin at this link. It's an AEI link I'm using for the links to the debate about the EPI study.

JohnJ said...

@Jeremy

My God, man, what is it with you and this "teabagger" slur? It's the kind of stereotypy one sees in developmentally disabled kids.

Seriously, what's the deal? Did you have a run-in with those folks, or something?

Brennan said...

"THAT is what this is about!"

It would appear that if there was one thing that public employee unions needed, it is this fight.

I do think the policy change is worth it in the long run. Heck, Walker can just quote the President and say he's willing to be a one termer to pass the just policy.

Why should public sector workers fund a group they oppose? The $800 a year in their pockets might actually mean something.

Trooper York said...

Don't be cross with Jeremy.

Today is his special day.

rhhardin said...

Jeremy On an annual basis, full-time state and local government employees in Wisconsin are undercompensated by 8.2% compared with otherwise similar private sector workers.

This is great news! That means that they'll leave an go to the private sector, solving the problem.

Why doesn't this happen? There seems to be a line applying for government jobs instead.

Answer: government jobs are overpaid, as claimed.

Carol said...

When people mention public sector pay vs private sector, I always wonder why no one does a quick calculation of a teacher's hourly pay versus that of a private sector worker who works all year.

Lets say the average teacher works 9 months = 37 weeks (allowing for a 5 week month). Subtract Christmas, Springbreak, Thanksgiving, Easter and a couple of other days that they supposedly have teacher workshops, which none of my teacher friends seem to attend.

We are down to approximately 34 weeks per year or 1360 hours. A full time private sector worker puts in 2080 per yr. Although I can tell you I work far more than 2080 hours per year and I am sure the average teacher will say they work more than 1360 hours.

Let's say the average teacher makes approximately 50k per yr. Divide that by actual hours worked and it comes out to $36.76 per hour.

Take the same 50k per year for private sector and divide by 2080 and you get $24 an hour.

Seems to be a big difference to me!

lawyapalooza said...

Sofa King: TRUE. Read past the headline. Unless of course, you're from Texas and weren't taught how to read. I have reported the exact numbers, so where's the lie?

The other statistics are straight from the DPI.

James said...

There are only 5 states that have outlawed collective bargaining for teachers: VA, NC, GA, TX, SC.

2010 SAT scores? Wisconsin 3rd in the country. Next highest of the above: VA at 34th.

2010 ACT scores: Wisconin 13th. Of the above, highest is Virginia again, at 22nd.

For 2010-11, 77.2 percent of all Wisconsin students scored proficient or advanced in mathematics, up from 72.8 percent in 2005-06. On the reading assessment, 83.0 percent of students scored proficient or advanced this year, up from 81.7 percent six years ago. While both percentages are up over six years, mathematics achievement has been improving more.



That's demonstrably false and IowaHawk did an excellent job at debunking those claims:

Longhorns 17, Badgers 1

Alex said...

Sofa King: TRUE. Read past the headline. Unless of course, you're from Texas and weren't taught how to read. I have reported the exact numbers, so where's the lie?

The other statistics are straight from the DPI.


MORON. Did you read the part about participation rate? I guess you FAILED statistics!

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
enicar333 said...

Public employee pay should be what the Community can reasonably afford. No more, no less. If it can go up, so be it, if it must go down, so be it. Public employees arn't slaves and are always free to go.

galdosiana said...

garage said: Republicans are recalling Dems too. Actually they filed first.

Yes, and lest we forget, they are the ONLY ones who have a decent reason to do so. The Dems are recalling the Repubs because of their political orientation--conservative. The Repubs are recalling the Dems because they refused to do their jobs.

Carol_Herman said...

The other side of the coin.

Let's say Prosser doesn't hold onto his judicial seat in April 5th's special election. (No, I'm not the Oracle at Delphi.)

But this is a NATIONAL story. HELLO WISCONSIN. So, if the democraps win this one ... are we in Hanoi? They won. And, China dumped all over Vietnam. They never did get to enjoy the deep port LBJ built for them.

So it is. Sometimes you lose. And, sometimes, all you're doing is going to Waterloo.

After Waterloo?

Well what if Obama can't pull out of his dive?

Again. From Gobitus to Barnett took two years for the reversal.

Why don't we teach this stuff to high school students? It ain't boring! And, it's better than the crap that's passing for "social" studies and "humanities."

But that's just me.

I think in the long run SUMI does harm. I don't think Kloppenberg can run like a winnah, either.

So? What if Wisconsin's Supreme's turns itself into another circus; like the 9th?

What if David Prosser also stinks?

Robes don't make a person.

Alas, once we did have some great justices. When did Hugo Black die? He was the last of the Mohegan s.

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lukedog said...

I'm not a teacher, but I sure do get sick of people whining about how much teachers get paid...

Someone passed this on to me:

Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit! We can get that for less than mini...mum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM

with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE…. That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children

X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!)

WHAT A DEAL!!!!

Triangle Man said...

Why are you comparing private vs pubic pay packages? All that matters in this discussion is why unions are willing to offer NOTHING in the face of crushing deficits.

Pants on fire.

Sixty Grit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
garage mahal said...

Yes, and lest we forget, they are the ONLY ones who have a decent reason to do so. The Dems are recalling the Repubs because of their political orientation--conservative. The Repubs are recalling the Dems because they refused to do their jobs.

I'm sure the people will decide for themselves who is more noble with their signatures.

Brennan said...

@Carol

I'm fond of the teacher's work hours tally. I think it can be measured, but I do think that any arithmetic that says teachers work no hours during June, July and August, te two weeks of winter break, the one week of srping break, and the various holidays is a poor assumption.

Lets measure their work hours? Oops. Union won't let you. You need a committee.

MadisonMan said...

The Dems are recalling the Repubs because of their political orientation--conservative. The Repubs are recalling the Dems because they refused to do their jobs.

There is no limit to the reason that people can (attempt to) recall their representatives.

Brennan said...

"Public employee pay should be what the Community can reasonably afford."

I agree. What local property and sales taxes can raise should be all they have to spend. If they need more, raise the rates. If they want more, write an appeal letter to someone with excess capital.

But no, every elected official goes up the chain until you reach the money printing stage.

Guess where we all are now?

James said...

My daughter's first grade teacher (Racine Unified School District) runs a Taco Bell after school. During recess and lunch breaks he would put a few of their desks together and nap on his "bed."

Brennan said...

@Lukedog

I like that legend. What do you think about this one?

"It's about the children."

When it comes to teachers, I knew some where that legend was was their life. They're nuns. Some weren't. Some were just members of my parrish that taught in the Catholic school for about $5000 a year in wages and a promise from the parrish members to support a fellow member in need. A union, if you will, by another name, but one with voluntary participation and dues contributions.

Sofa King said...

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

There sure is, but I don't think it's what you think it is.

Lukedog said...

Sofa King-

Did you make a point there? I missed it if you did.

B said...

"JohnJ said...
@Jeremy
My God, man, what is it with you and this "teabagger" slur?"

Oh, I don't know. Jeremy's fascination with conservative testicles certainly is a rather distasteful obsession. But I suppose it's helpful to know that if I were ever to decide my scrotum needed a good licking, and I were ever inclined to act on the impulse (neither event admittedly very likely) I could count on Jeremy oft stated enthusiasm to answer the call.

Sofa King said...


Did you make a point there? I missed it if you did.

My point is that your anecdote is beyond silly to anybody with a rudimentary grasp of economics.

DADvocate said...

Jeremy's fascination with conservative testicles certainly is a rather distasteful obsession.

Distasteful, yes. An obsession of the lefties because testicles are so rare amongst them.

Lukedog said...

Sofa King-

"My point is that your anecdote is beyond silly to anybody with a rudimentary grasp of economics."

This sentence is complete nonsense. Make a point, or move on.

lawyapalooza said...

MORON. Did you read the part about participation rate? I guess you FAILED statistics!


Dipshit: yes I read the participation rates. Did you? Fact is that only the top students in the dumb ass states took the ACT, and 67% of Wisconsin students did.

A much smaller amount of WI students took the SAT.


How about those DPI stats? Jackhole.

Sofa King said...

How is it nonsense?

Was not the point of your anecdote to illustrate that teachers are somehow underpaid?

Is not "pay" a function of "value?"

Is not economics the study of value?

Do I need to spell it out further?

Jeremy said...

Alex - "Bush did all he could in the face of an unprecedented hostile press and unprecedented hostile Democrat Party. He really did fulfill his fiduciary responsibilities as chief executive."

Bush had a GOP majority in the House and Senate for six of his eight years.

The recession began in December of 2007...a full yar before president Obama took office.

But you think the "media" and the "Democrats" are to blame for his being asleep at the switch??

GFL with that.

Jeremy said...

Mike K - "Getting old is not that great but it does have one benefit. I won't be around to experience what the Democrats are bringing to the country."

The economy has done better under Democratic leadership, than un the GOP's for decades.

Do some research before posting teabagger drivel.

DATA TABLE: Acronyms: BLS = U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics; BEA = U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis

http://www.eriposte.com/economy/other/demovsrep.htm

Lombardi Chick said...

Jeremy:

Okay, we get it. You thought President Bush handled things poorly (several years ago now).

What do you think of Obama's handling of the economy? How long must he be in office before we start holding him accountable?

Are you better off today than you were before the Democrats took over Congress in '06?

The Grand Inquisitor said...

"The economy has done better under Democratic leadership, than un the GOP's for decades"

LOL

This is absolutely absurd. Clinton experienced a dot com bubble and the peace dividend of the cold war ending, and still he left Bush with a recession.

You have to pretend the congress doesn't exist to say such things, which even then are absurd.

The economy was doing extremely well until Pelosi took power of the House, the part of government responsible for the budget, Jeremy.

Keep brainlessly shilling while the Tea Party gains more and more political power.

B said...

"I'm sure the people will decide for themselves who is more noble with their signatures."

Not being a Wisconsinite, I had/have two reasons to follow this circus.

One was curiosity about how the absolutely sublime conviction held by the democrat state senators that the majority of the Wisconsin plebiscite would approve of their sabotaging the fall elections by fleeing would pan out. If the recall efforts from both sides of the aisle there progress through the hoops to actual special elections, I'll have my answer on that question. Which is good, as I won't have to wait until next November. And it's an important question. Can duly elected representatives associated with the minority position in a state legislature subvert the legislative process by what is basically a work stoppage that would get them fired in the private sector in 24 hours, much less 3 weeks. It's an important question to the whole country as I see it.

The second reason was to see whether the duly elected Wisconsin representatives holding the majority position in the state legislature would hold out and stick to their original vote. Which vote if made for the right reasons should not be qualified or modified by rent-a-mob threats and intimidation. Again, very important to the rest of the country.

The adults in charge don't seem to be backing down. Let's see whether the plebiscite in Wisconsin believes that the rule of law supercedes the rule of the mob.

If not, well then, the hell with Wisconsin. The Wisconsin circus hwill have at least provided enough distraction for a couple of other states to change direction in a positive way without the rent-a-mobs interference.

The Grand Inquisitor said...

"No of course not. I do find it fairly remarkable that there are 1-2 recalls completed before the bill that triggered the recalls is even enacted."

Really? I find it predictable union action, with absolutely no democratic meaning.

We will see which direction Wisconsin chooses to go in its votes for the political branches. Obviously the Prosser election is not a political election for many voters, except those who want an activist, but the legislature is a great measure of how the democrats are seen. They have lost power rapidly for a great reason.

And, ultimately, that will be enough to overcome lawfare.

B said...

"Distasteful, yes. An obsession of the lefties because testicles are so rare amongst them."

Good point.

Triangle Man said...

This is absolutely absurd. Clinton experienced a dot com bubble and the peace dividend of the cold war ending, and still he left Bush with a recession.

Clearly the answer is that our economy has never been good. The United States has been an unmitigated economic failure. Back to the drawing board!

Jeremy said...

DADvocate - It's not me or the Democrats who came up with the "teabagger" term...it's the teabagger crowd themselves who started the whole thing

They were just too stupid to understand what it might mean:

The term "teabagger" was introduced to the political lexicon by Tea Party movement leaders:

The first big day for this movement was Tax Day, April 15. And organizers had a gimmick. They asked people to send a tea bag to the Oval Office. One of the exhortations was “Tea Bag the Fools in D.C.” A protester was spotted with a sign saying, “Tea Bag the Liberal Dems Before They Tea Bag You.”

The Tea Partiers not only invented the term, they did so in order to inflict a similar double entendre onto the President, the Democrats, and liberals in general.

Now, they’re trying to re-cast the term as a slur.

In emails, protest signs, t-shirts, and online, early Tea Party literature urged protesters to “Tea Bag the White House,” and to “Tea-bag the liberal Dems before they tea-bag you.”

The idea that they just didn’t know the term’s meaning is belied by the fact that they obviously knew it was negative (and non-consensual), since they didn’t want it done to them.

Stogie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jeremy said...

B - See my comment at 2:53...if you can read.

Brennan said...

@Jeremy

You're still saying this?

"Bush had a GOP majority in the House and Senate for six of his eight years."

I already corrected the record for you. My post is back at 12:11.

Stogie said...

The economy has done better under Democratic leadership, than un the GOP's for decades.

Oh really? How well is it doing right now, Jeremy? And what do you think of the Democrat induced real estate bubble with their subprime mortgage scheme, and this terrible recession that resulted? Do you really think that taxes through the roof, high energy costs (mandated by the anti-prosperity Democrats) will help?

You embarrass yourself.

Jeremy said...

Stogie "Oh really? How well is it doing right now, Jeremy?"

I was speaking in a historical sense...do you know what the word means?

Oh, and by the way, teabagger-boy: the recession began in December of 2007.

You didn't know that either did you?

Duh.

Jeremy said...

Stooogie - The Democrats were behind the subprime scheme?

GFL with that.

Lukedog said...

Sofa King-

Obviously, the point to the anecdote is to support the idea that teachers work hard. People who have children generally have also used a babysitter, so that is a useful point of reference.

I don't think teachers should make $277,000; Perhaps $50,000 is a reasonable figure.

People spend a lot of time whining about teacher's pay and summers off. I would love the summers off and $50,000 sounds good too, but I would never want to be teacher; I'm glad other people are doing it.

So, you still haven't made your point. I'm assuming you think teachers make too much money?

No need to talk in riddles next time. I'm sure you're very smart but next time you can just say what you mean.

Sofa King said...

Jeremy -

It is very rude, not to mention unethical, to present somebody else's words as your own.

Wouldn't you agree?

Jeremy said...

Brennan "You're still saying this?"

I have no idea what your post at 12:11 has to do wiht the fact that Bush had the White House for eight years and he had a GOP majority for six of those years.

*Republicans lost Congressional seats but still retained control of the House and, more narrowly, the Senate.

After the 2000 election, the Senate was divided evenly between the parties, with Republicans retaining the right to organize the Senate due to the election of Dick Cheney as Vice President and ex officio presiding officer of the Senate.

The Senate shifted to control by the Democrats (though they technically were the plurality party as they were one short of a majority) after GOP senator Jim Jeffords changed party registration to "Independent" in June 2001, but later returned to Republican control after the November 2002 elections

Sofa King said...

Lukedog -

Most teachers make well in excess of $50,000. The average total compensation is closer to $75,000. Apparently *you* think they are overpaid!

Sofa King said...

And I thought my point was clear: that your anecdote was not a rational way to think about the issue

Jeremy said...

Sofa - I've posted tha history of your teabagger movement so many times, I merely copy a previous post and re-post it.

Are you disputing whether it's true?

Can you provide any bassis for no believeing it?

*Try Googling it and see what comes up..or, try this:

http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=Mjk1YmRjNzIxNmUwMTI0ZWYxZWU4OWU2MzFiOWJmNDE=

or this:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/president-obama%E2%80%99s-use-of-teabagger-term-provokes-media-debate/

Sofa King said...

I'll take your attribution as agreement.

kate said...

But there still isn't any money. 

Well, not so much... WXOW La Crosse

Brennan said...

@Jeremy

"After the 2000 election, the Senate was divided evenly between the parties, with Republicans retaining the right to organize the Senate due to the election of Dick Cheney as Vice President and ex officio presiding officer of the Senate."

Nope. You're still wrong. The Senate was not "divided evenly". The breakdown was 50 Dems, 49 Repubs, and 1 independent that caucused with the Dems. That is why he was known as Majority Leader Daschle and all the committees were chaired by Dems.

I do hope you understand now. If you need more information I can help you find it.

JohnJ said...

Lawyapalooza said…
"…yes I read the participation rates. Did you? Fact is that only the top students in the dumb ass states took the ACT, and 67% of Wisconsin students did."

To be fair, I believe Alex is mostly correct.

Iowahawk did a thorough job of debunking these types of comparisons several weeks ago.

The major complication is the racial makeup and test participation rate of the respective states.

Let's leave race alone and look only at participation rate. (I'm borrowing much of this from Iowahawk, although I was able to confirm many of his numbers on a few helpful websites just now.)

Midwestern states like Wisconsin rank high on the SAT because that test typically is not required by the major Midwestern universities. So, in the Midwest, the only students taking the SATs presumably are the ones confident enough in their academic achievement to apply to schools outside their region.

In 2009, which are the most recent data I could find that have all of the cross-rankings readily available, Wisconsin ranked 3rd in the nation in SAT scores, but had a participation rate of just 4% (i.e., only 4% of its high school students took the test). On the ACT, Wisconsin had a much more representative participation rate of 69% and tied for 17th.

As for the "dumb ass" states:

• Virginia was 34th on the SAT with 67% participation, 13th on the ACT with 22% participation.

• Texas was 45th on the SAT with 53% participation, 33rd on the ACT with 33% participation.

• Georgia was 48th on the SAT with 74% participation, 34th on the ACT with 44% participation.

• North Carolina was 38th on the SAT with 63% participation, 20th on the ACT with 16% participation.

• South Carolina was 49th on the SAT with 66% participation, 44th on the ACT with 52% participation.

The differences are just not that dramatic. And, when one takes the racial makeup of the respective states into account, things level out even further.

One more thing…

"A much smaller *amount* of WI students took the SAT."

Ouch! Sister Acquin would rap your knuckles for that one.

Lukedog said...

Sofa King-

First of all, I said "perhaps" and secondly, $50,000 refers to their salary only.

Even so, would you like to be a teacher for around $75,000? I would not. Assessing the needs of 25-30 kids all day long. Hyperactive kids, emotional kids, kids with a cruddy home life. They are all in that one room together. When I volunteer in my daughter's classroom I am so grateful I chose to be a nurse and not a teacher.

Mike said...

lawya - here's the refutation you need to look at: http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-badgers-1.html

When controlled for demography, Wisconsin isn't actually that good.

Lukedog said...

Sofa King-

"I'll take your attribution as agreement."

Nice. I'm going to have to try that line sometime :)

Mike said...

kate,

That doesn't solve the issue for the coming years...

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