March 12, 2011

Wisconsinquences.

Unintended Wisconsinquences.

144 comments:

America's Politico said...

Explain to me as if I am a two-year old. Why will the GOP not suffer from the Scott Walker extravagant adventure in jumping of a cliff.

Once again, I had a 9-course dinner at the Oval with many K-street consultants. All high priced. Here is what I learned:

- The GOP is finished. The Democrats need to thank Scott Walker. The House will go back to the Dems. The position in Senate will become stronger (as few GOP will lose or retired).

- The NPR with help of HuffPost, etc. will get all communities energized for 2012

- Obama/Biden will defeat *ANY* GOP ticket in every state. A total wipe-out, just like Reagan over Mondale.

So, again, explain to me how this will not happen. The WI is a prototype of what you will see in summer and fall of 2012. Trust me. I know everything. Everything.

paminwi said...

Am I wrong to be so disturbed and depressed by all of this? There are days I honestly don't understand my city or my state. We have unions threatening boycotts of businesses and police basically not doing their job because they feel "put upon". It may be trite to say - but I am worried about the world my children have to look forward to living in.

Maybe I am just having a bad night.

madAsHell said...

Professor,

I think you are playing with fire. You have broadcast the your opinion, and your images.

Be safe!!

Hank Rearden_WI said...

Hear me now, believe me later . . . .

Home schooling is not just for conservative Christians. Get your kids out of the public schools. NOW !

ALH said...

@ Politico -

I am just an average Wisconsin citizen and usually eat my meals in 2-courses with my wife and children in our undersized ranch house.

My friend, who is in law-enforcement (not a K-Street consultant) is a supporter of Walker, but has reached the SAME conclusions that you listed.

Although I wouldn't discount these things happening, there are many people who support civil service reform and will be energized to support candidates of that nature.

If, in the next 2 years, Wisconsin's budget picture and employment situation are improving, those in the middle will reward Republicans by keeping them in charge of the House and Senate.

E.M. Davis said...

You may want to start up a "Wisconsequences" tag.

I have a feeling it will be put to good use.

edutcher said...

Baghdad Bob once again tells us The Demos will go down in flames in '12.

The first poll released in the wake of this tells a different story.

Granted, you wait until Rasmussen has his say, but, if the numbers hold up, '12 ain't gonna be the Demos' year if they're counting on this issue to save them.

PS ALH nails it. If Walker turns things around, this will be mostly forgotten.

I'm a Shaaaaark said...

The way I figure it, the more these so-calldd "civil servants" continue to try and hold states, counties, cities, schools etc hostage with their childish, obnoxious, and arrogant actions, well, there's a lot more blowback that could be heading their way. Let them keep this shit up - people ARE going to get fed up even more, if they are not already.

America's Politico said...

ALH, good points. It is unlikely that Scott Walker will make things better. Things will be worse before getting better. Sadly, for the GOP, 2012 is next door.

There is NO WAY the GOP can get out of this mess. They have only one direction: Fall off the cliff like Wily E. Coyote. Road Runner in this case are all Democrats.

LawGirl said...

So, again, explain to me how this will not happen. The WI is a prototype of what you will see in summer and fall of 2012. Trust me. I know everything.
Then you're better than the rest of us because the sane among us would not claim to know the future.

The only "poll" that matters is the one taken by the voters at the ballot box. Until then, I hope that Wisconsin's independent voters come to see the union thuggery for what it is and the balanced budget as a very good thing, and vote accordingly.

Ut said...

"We have unions threatening boycotts of businesses and police basically not doing their job because they feel "put upon".

Face it ... your government is corrupt.

You've been too busy working your ass off trying to provide for your family and pay your ever-increasing tax burden and still try to get ahead.

While you were busy doing that, they were devising ways to steal it from you.

The police do not feel "put upon." They're ON. THE. OTHER. SIDE. They are criminals. Not petty-theivery-shoplift-from-Wal-Mart criminals. Not punch-your-girlfriend criminals. They're frying much bigger fish.

They're the protection racket.

And they're armed, so don't think about fucking with them. They'll shoot you in the back and then claim they were reaching for their taser. Maybe they'll get two years ... but you'll be dead and out of the way.

Mind your business. As they say: If you see something - shut your fucking pie hole buddy.

edutcher said...

America's Politico said...

ALH, good points. It is unlikely that Scott Walker will make things better. Things will be worse before getting better. Sadly, for the GOP, 2012 is next door.

There is NO WAY the GOP can get out of this mess. They have only one direction: Fall off the cliff like Wily E. Coyote. Road Runner in this case are all Democrats.


From the mouth of the guy who said '10 would be a blowout for the Demos.

Well, it was true.

The Demos were certainly blown out.

LawGirl said...

I think it rolls off the toungue better as "Wisconsequences."

alan markus said...

America's Politico makes great satire. Glad to see you back in action!

Alex said...

Ut - what you say about the police being utterly corrupted is scary indeed. I would be scared shitless to be a WI resident right now, knowing that the police wasn't unconditionally "serving & protecting".

Alex said...

AP - why would the people elect a GOP government only to throw them out for being conservative?

The Crack Emcee said...

This is what you fight them with.

ALH said...

The other thing that Walker (and the other R's in WI) have on their side is their adult behavior. My recommended slogan for Republicans in 2012: "Adult. Leadership."

Chanting and protesting and fleeing to IL might rev up your base...but for how long? Emotion and hyperbole only gets you so far.

I believe Paul Ryan a few weeks ago was advocating that conservatives stay out of the personality business and and follow thru with their ideas - smaller government, more efficient services, accountability and austerity. In 2012 and 2014, I think that will serve conservatives well.

We will look back on the "Civil Service Reform Law" (that's what I'm calling it from now on) as one of the starting points for getting WI back on track.

The Crack Emcee said...

Pay AP no mind - he's been comic relief around here for some time now.

Our very own Tokyo Rose.

Lem said...

Hey Crack if you ever come to the east coast please let us know.

Julius said...
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Julius said...

Ut is absolutely right.

The police are fucking criminals.

And not just in Madison.

In a few weeks, I'm going to Weare, NH to lend moral support to someone who was the victim of police corruption and is charged with a felony for it. There, the police have a bona fide "protection" racket going on. They approach local business owners and demand that they hire them in the moonlighting hours as security guards. Those that don't hire them are put on the police shit-list and harassed. Similarly, citizens who try to talk about what is going on are harassed by inane criminal charges that are clearly intended as political retaliation.

Then there's the whole issue of police coming into schools and pushing their political programs like DARE down the throats of kids. Gotta make sure the kids are turned off from libertarian thought at the earliest possible age, apparently.

In my hometown, I was acquainted with a high-ranking police inspector who had been good friends with the Mayor since childhood and had been a long-time partner of the Police Chief. This dude ended up murdering his wife by stabbing her some 13 times. His buddies the Mayor and Police Chief ignored obvious warning signs about his increasingly violent and erratic behavior, including multiple direct appeals from the now-dead wife. To them, everything was "just fine".

There are so many reasons to hate the police, to hate every aspect of the so-called "law enforcement", jail-our-citizens business.

Anyone who signs up for a job in that line of work is a dirtbag in my book, and can go to hell.

lucid said...

Ah, c'mon. Durkin is not even making a serious argument and she is clearly short a few million nuerons.

Can't somebody get an actual economist in here to explain to Ann and Glenn how this stuff (people getting paid for what they do and paying for what they get--oops, Ann and Glenn don't know about getting paid for what they do) reallly works.

Mankiw's new edition of Principles of Economics is out. $205 bucks at Amazon (but not a link to be found on Mankiw's blog site).

Maybe Ann and Glenn can use some of their Amazon bucks or their state salaries to pick up a copy.

Then they would at least recognize an economic ignoramus before they both link to one.

Sixty Grit said...
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Lem said...

I look at whats going on in Wisconsin as an experiment.

When was the last time a politician dared to go so far as Walker?

If it is true that we are near the tipping point as far as unsustainable budgets and the tax base inability to pay then the Walker experiment should be fresh in peoples memory as the time when an elected peoples representative stood up and said STOP.

If the experiment fails we (at least Wisconsin for certain) will not be able to say that we were misled.

Maguro said...
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Maguro said...

lucid, intead of just calling people names, why don't you explain why Durkin is wrong and making Wisconsin's DMV clerks pay part of their own health insurance costs will lead to economic disaster? Hmmm?

Looking forward to seeing your economic analysis.

The Crack Emcee said...

I know it's a Tea Party, but we need to throw some GREASE in their faces!

KC Miglio said...
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ALH said...

Well said Lem.


wv: huffe (applies to all WI D's and the mode of transportation we'll all be using if we don't get our finances in order)

The Crack Emcee said...

Lem,

Hey Crack if you ever come to the east coast please let us know.

Dude, if you think I've forgotten you then you're not feeling me, at all. I swear, you'll know. Promise. And good looking out. I mean it.

Ann - Meade: Click the link!

Julius said...

@Sixty Grit-

DAs are deserving of the most passionate contempt and hate. Indeed, this weekend I am writing a piece attacking the Middlesex, MA District Attorney and his corrupt henchmen.

And of course the Lefty establishment that rushes to lynch mob judgment like in the Duke rape case is evil, just plain fucking evil.

I think America would be much better off if public scorn were heaped on all these people.

vbspurs said...

In honour of Ruth Anne Adams:

Ruth and Wisconsequences!

Sixty Grit said...
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Jason said...

All I know about this whole situation here in Wisconsin over the past month is this:

Scott Walker has a pair of titanium balls. And the Fitzgerald brothers are the perfect pair to have in the GOP leadership while he is in office.

The one other thing Im pretty sure of: every Democratic senator (and probably Dale Schultz, the only GOP Senator to vote against the repair bill) arent going to get one favor from Walker or Fitzgerald in their entire term.

lucid said...

@Maguro--

You keep setting up straw men. No one is arguing that public employees shouldn't have to make wage and benefit concessions, and in fact they already have,

Durkin is saying, incredibly stupidly considering that she is doing it in print, that when teachers negotiate for wage in a collective bargaining process that the schools will suffer so much that the working class will hqve to pay for so much more themselves and that this will be a disaster.

There is a marketplace that sorts this stuff out, and the market forces apply to a collective bargaining process and to whether workers spend their money on this or on that as to anything else.

But I reallly don't have the time or interest to try to explain this all to you.

It is just appalling what passes for credible analysis these days.

lucid said...
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edutcher said...

lucid said...

Ah, c'mon. Durkin is not even making a serious argument and she is clearly short a few million nuerons.

Don't criticize other people's neurons if you can't spell it.

vbspurs said...

In honour of Ruth Anne Adams:

Ruth and Wisconsequences!


Very droll, mum!

So happy to see we're in Sakiesque form, as always.

Lem said...

I had to do some community service as a result of some personal shenanigans I believe I've shared here b4.

Anyways.. I went on recycling collection for the town I live at.. there was/is the same talk from the NJ governor as in Wisconsin.

You should see the animus and anger of these guys in the morning when they start gathering (b4 they get their assignments) watching the morning news.. Every time Gov Cristy came on some news story, they started cursing him out.

One day, as we were doing the route, they are talking about the cuts that are coming.. and it turns out I'm doing the route with a union rep.

He's getting all sorts of pressure from the workers telling him not to compromise.. that they should get their raises the same as every year.. while he is trying to explain to them that this time things are different.

Later, after we finished, he gave me a ride home. He told me, when people are loosing their homes and loosing their jobs its very difficult to get any sympathy with them (taxpayers).

This was from a union rep.

Apparently somebody had gone and talked to a newspaper anonymously and management (non union) was very upset, to the point of threatening to fire whoever had done it, because they (management) were themselves under pressure from those above them.

I believe we may not have another opportunity this good to end the cycle of abuse for a long time.

This dreadful economy is our chance to bring back some sanity to state government.

Michael K said...

"So, again, explain to me how this will not happen. The WI is a prototype of what you will see in summer and fall of 2012."

You could be right. The Democrats and the unions (sorry for the redundancy) have chosen this hill to die on today.

They will win or lose. I agree with Ryan that it is the time for the GOP to act as adults and see if the public can get the message. If not, we will see 21% mortgage interest again and the country will be heading for default. If they lose, at least they will not share the blame. Usually, politicians want to fuzz the differences so they do not stand or fall on facts. This is the time to do so.

In 1979, Reagan came along. He was called "too conservative" to be elected and the polls were very close until the second debate. This will play out much the same way.

I don't see how Democrats can play this both ways. They have to go with the unions because that's where their money comes from (Aside from Soros and Gaza). If they lose, and I suspect they are less committed to principle than the GOP, they know this will be the end for decades.

Of course, we could be wrong about the economics but not many objective observers believe that. I'm kind of glad I'm 73. I won't have to live long with the consequences of a wrong decision.

vbspurs said...

Thanks, Edutcher! And thanks for remembering that Saki is my fave short story writer. If you didn't, mighty good reference anyway. :)

wv: phothai (soup at a Pan-Asian bistro)

vbspurs said...

This dreadful economy is our chance to bring back some sanity to state government.

Excellent anecdote, Lem. And the conclusion is the only thing that can save our nation, because I have to tell you, I think we're doomed otherwise...

lucid said...

TIME FOR ANN AND GLENN TO WORRY?:

"HIGHER EDUCATION UPDATE: Two University of Minnesota Professors Indicted for Also Drawing Paychecks From Georgia Tech."

Could Ann's and Glenn's neglect of their paid state jobs while they make money elsewhere rise to the level of criminal fraud?

Big Mike said...

@ALH and edutcher, sorry to tell you (and as a fiscally conservative Republican for over 40 years, you have no idea how sorry I am to tell you), but what you're seeing in Wisconsin is an old story being played out yet again.

People vote Democrat until their state economy is in the crapper. Then they vote Republicans into office to clean out the privy. Once the state stops hemorrhaging red ink, they'll vote the Democrats right back in. It even happens out in California, now and again.

On the other hand, don't expect Democrats, once they regain control of the state, to bring back collective bargaining for public unions. They'll know that it's a guaranteed route to fiscal insolvency and another Republican takeover of the governor's office and the legislature.

Sorry to be so cynical, but the people of left-leaning states are pretty much all alike that way.

Henry said...

In the linked article Tish Durkin misses another unintended consequence. Poor cities with high-paid teachers will max out class size. This runs directly counter to the common wisdom on how to improve outcomes. (Don't be fooled by the lede at the link; scroll down and you'll get the message.)

The favored leftist rejoinder of taxing the rich simply does not work at the local level. The rich aren't there. Ironically, taxing the rich is most meaningless in any city whose main industries are government and universities.

Henry said...

In the linked article Tish Durkin misses another unintended consequence. Poor cities with high-paid teachers will max out class size. This runs directly counter to the common wisdom on how to improve education. (Don't be fooled by the lede at the link; scroll down and you'll get the message.)

The favored leftist rejoinder of taxing the rich simply does not work at the local level. The rich aren't there. Ironically, taxing the rich is most meaningless in any city whose main industries are government and universities.

hillsideave said...
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lucid said...
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lucid said...

@politico

I don't think that the house or senate will go back to the Dems this time around.

But I do think that thanks to the lunatic fringe of the repbulicans--like Walker, Palin, Bachmann, and some of the numbskulls who post here--that the dem majority in the house will be sharply reduced and that Obam will be a shoo-in.

In public opinion polling, Americans oppose what Walker is doing by a 2 to 1 margin. Americans don't like extremists.

the republicans are blowing their chance just like Pelosi did for the Dems and like Gingrich did in 1994.

Obama is going to be president for the next six years thanks to assholes like Scott Walker.

Henry said...

In the linked article Tish Durkin misses another unintended consequence. Poor cities with high-paid teachers will max out class size. This runs directly counter to the common wisdom on how to improve outcomes (http://www.good.is/post/can-we-improve-education-by-increasing-class-size/ -- Don't be fooled by the lede at the link; scroll down and you'll get the message.)

The favored leftist rejoinder of taxing the rich simply does not work at the local level. The rich aren't there. Ironically, taxing the rich is most meaningless in any city whose main industries are government and universities.

Jason said...

There is one big thing in Wisconsin that this whole debate has overshadowed:

Redistricting.

Now that the census figures are in, the GOP is free to redistrict. If the Senate Dems want to keep this up and get this mad over the budget, just wait until the GOP re-do some of the senate districts...guys like Chris Larson will have no chance if they can dive his district to the south and west (Paul Ryan's congressional district). And GOP "swing" districts like Alberta Darling's can be made more "conservative-proof". If Wirch is successfully recalled (which looks more and more likely by the day), one can easily see the GOP gaining 2 or 3 seats out of this whole mess over the next couple of years.

The Dems have been so short-sighted in this whole debate by burning so many bridges with guys like Walker and Fitzgerald. Its like they have no idea how to see the big picture in anything.

Jason said...

"Obama is going to be president for the next six years thanks to assholes like Scott Walker."

---------------

Thats complete BS. Obama's second term lies solely on the economy. If unemployment is still high and the economy continues to sputter throughout the summer, Obama is very vulnerable...because independents in this country that were swayed by his smooth-talking ways the first time around know he will be full of shit again.

Obama cant run on "hope and change" for his second term. He actually has a record now.

Lem said...

Maybe I'm missing something but.. don't most of these people own their own homes and therefore must be aware of the tax burden people are being asked to bear?. (let alone the state income tax).

Here in NJ the taxes are just ridiculous..

My father fled to Georgia.

Corre∫pondence Committee said...

Obama cant run on "hope and change" for his second term. He actually has a record now.

How big a scam was "hope and change"?

Even D.U. is turning on Obama, because he's allowing poor, innocent Bradley Manning to have to sleep in his Underoos...which is "torture", according to the lefties.

sane_voter said...

@jason great point about redisticting.

Also, any wisc. folks know the best group to give $$ to for this recall effort spporting the GOP side?

ALH said...

@ sane -
Not sure who the best group is for 4 donations, but i'll be supporting my Sen. Dan Kapanke (32nd district)directly if he faces a recall...which he probably will.
He had 100 a-holes protesting in his front yard this weekend and has received threats.

Seven Machos said...

Could Ann's and Glenn's neglect of their paid state jobs while they make money elsewhere rise to the level of criminal fraud?

Read much? The whole thing about the professors you are talking about is that they are charged with keeping their second jobs a secret from their respective employers.

Hard to do with a blog.

But keep trying to stir up shit and making yourself look like a complete tool. I mean, just laughable.

PETER V. BELLA said...

@American Politico

You are a two year old.

Seven Machos said...

P.S. Lucid -- America's Politico obviously sarcastic. He is making fun of people on your side.

Jesus Christ, man! You are dumber than a box of hair.

PETER V. BELLA said...

This too shall pass. It is game, set, match. In about a week a new issue will inflame people. This will be forgotten. Thrown on the trash heap of history.

Organized labor is an anachronism.

former law student said...

I am worried about the world my children have to look forward to living in.

I'm worried about my country, not the whole world. The message from the article in "The Week" is that if you're an employee in America, your life must suck. There will be the 400 haves, and the three hundred million have nots. People who want to live a middle class life will have to move to Europe or Canada.

former law student said...

was advocating that conservatives stay out of the personality business

That's like advocating that turtles stay out of the flying business.

Seven Machos said...

Where is Europe, FLS?

Also, honestly, dude, have you ever taken an economics course or read a single thing about economics in your life?

What happens to the productivity of the evil 400 rich people when you tax them at higher rates? What about the next 400? The next 400?

If you need help with these questions, let me know.

Seven Machos said...

Excuse me, FLS. Where in Europe? Greece? Ireland? Portugal? Italy?

Carol_Herman said...

All I see are in the pictures.

There's this parade. But it is so sparse, someone is in charge of keeping people spread out. It's like a movie set. How many extras do you need to make it look like a crowd?

Besides, today the 14-"badgers" returned to Wisconsin. There's a parade. And, none of the 14 thought they'd be popular enough to be on a float?

As to being told that the democraps win in 2012 ... just like Mondale defeated Reagan in 1984 ... I can live with those results. Mondale only won one or two states.

(It's always expected a candidate will win his own state. Not that Gore won Tennessee in 2000. He didn't. Which is why Florida ended up in play.

And, besides, Donald Rumsfeld's right. There are UNKNOWN UNKNOWNS.

lucid said...
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lucid said...

@seven assholes

you truly are an idiot. it is that they did it without permission, not that they kept it a secret. you can't be arrested for not telling your employer that you are doing something that is legal to do.

Ann and Glenn clearly spend very little time doing the jobs that the taxpayers pay them to do. If they were working in private industry, they would have been fired faster that you can lick up a fart.

BTW, cute picture. into latex, are we?

E.M. Davis said...

There will be the 400 haves, and the three hundred million have nots.

Holy shit. What's going to happen to Wisconsin's 99,000+ millionaires?

former law student said...

7M: Are you part of the 400, or are you part of the Great Unwashed?

The country my grandparents left is in better shape than the US in every way.

Seven Machos said...

Lucid -- Are you really trying to suggest that Althouse and Instapundit ought to be charged for fraud for having freely and publicly available blogs? Really?

Truly and utterly comically stupid. No, make that cosmically stupid.

Seven Machos said...

FLS -- I am somewhere firmly in the middle. But, anyway, answer the question(s): do you know or have you ever known one single solitary thing about economics?

former law student said...

7M: do you know anything about the race to the bottom?

lucid said...
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lucid said...

@seven assholes

my point was obviously rhetorical, but you are incapable of understanding subtlety.

my real point is that Althouse and Reynolds, who have been lambasting the Wisconsin teachers, are themsleves both state paid teachers with impossible-to-fire contracts who spend very little time working at the job that taxes are paid to have them do.

In other words, they are hypocrites.

If they tried what they are doing in the private sector, they would get their asses fired so fast they would leave their underwear behind.

Neither of them really does much as a law professor--they are too busy with their blogs.

on the other hand, the teachers whom they excoriate actually work at what they are paid to do, far harder, for longer hours, and for a lot less money than Reynolds and Althouse.

Ann and especially Glenn make this exploitation of the taxpayers worse by hawking wares at Amazon which earn them about 8% on each purchase. So they are not doing the jobs they are paid to do in order to make money doing something that has nothing to do with the law or their students.

If you want to see what a real academic professional's blog looks like, google Becker-Posner or Mankiw.

I'm sure that you won't be able to understand what you read there, but at least notice the absence of links to Amazon.

Glenn has had a death-in-japan theme going all day with his Amazon links. Especially unseemly.

Now go crawl back into your latex suit and take a deep breath.

Seven Machos said...

FLS -- Come on, man. I legitimately answered your question. I realize mine is loaded, but you have now answered back with a bad metaphorical question.

I feel like a lack of understanding of economics is your real weak point in your world view. A lot of leftists have this problem. I think that you view economics as something that is pliable -- controllable, either by government of by some group of super rich. It's not, no more than thermodynamics.

If you had a firmer grasp of economics, you would see that things cannot go on the way they have gone on with the demands public-sector unions make on state coffers. And that no amount of taxation will fix this, as taxation necessarily restricts economic growth.

I will now go back to making fun of Lucid.

Seven Machos said...

Lucid -- Why don't all these hardworking teachers you speak of have popular, widely read websites? It certainly can't be lack of something interesting to say. After all, they are so smart, so witty, and so hardworking. Certainly, all the smart and hardworking kids flocked straight to the schools of education as undergrads.

I guess they are just too busy, huh, what with the picketing and the six hour work days and 15 weeks of vacation a year.

former law student said...

7M: How do you think, say, Germany works? Is it as improbable as a bumblebee flying?

Lucid should realize being a law professor is an incredibly sweet gig whether the school is public or private.

Seven Machos said...

How do you think, say, Germany works?

Right now? By cutting corporate taxes. By being able to grow into a formerly communist country. By roping in other sovereign countries to a currency that allows them to maintain export markets in those sovereign countries. By billions (at least in today's terms) in foreign aid in World War II.

In the longer view, Germany -- with Weimar inflation and the rise of militant socialism, and that's just the last 80 years -- is such a bad example as to be farcical.

Do you know nothing of history as well?

Lem said...

..my real point is that Althouse and Reynolds, who have been lambasting the Wisconsin teachers, are themsleves both state paid teachers with impossible-to-fire contracts who spend very little time working at the job that taxes are paid to have them do.

Students pay tuition.. high tuition.. law school tuition.

Don't bother with a moron Seven.

Seven Machos said...

Lem -- Good point. Law schools are profit centers for all universities that have them. FLS and I had this debate recently. I won handily.

former law student said...

I won handily.

Were you the one who argued that the higher cost of out of state tuition didn't mean that taxpayers were subsidizing in-school tuition?

In your dreams.

Seven Machos said...

No. I was arguing that law schools are profit/revenue generators for all schools that have them.

The issue of why in-state students pay less than out-of-state students for the same law school education service is a different question, tied up in policy and history.

Corre∫pondence Committee said...

my real point is that Althouse and Reynolds, who have been lambasting the Wisconsin teachers, are themsleves both state paid teachers with impossible-to-fire contracts who spend very little time working at the job that taxes are paid to have them do.

Liberals say the darndest things.

So you finally admit such a monster exists. That's progress, I suppose.

Lem said...

Somebody mentioned here earlier that out of state law students pay somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 a year.

You know Althouse must be a good professor when her very liberal alma mater named her "Alumna of the Month".

Lem said...

Liberals say the darndest things.

So you finally admit such a monster exists. That's progress, I suppose
.

Its a case of the guy who after being found guilty of killing his parents asks the judge for clemency on account of being an orphan.

BJM said...

@fls

People who want to live a middle class life will have to move to Europe or Canada.

Dude, you're talking out of your ass, there is no middle class as we know it in Europe.

There's also that little problem of residential and work permits. It is impossible to reside and/or work in Europe without them and they are very difficult for an non-sponsored individual to obtain. You must post a large bond to insure you will not become dependent on the state. Some countries also demand a large cash deposit in Euros to be held by a local bank.

This also assumes you are literate in their language, they don't accomodate other languages as do we.

Europeans only want temporary, unskilled immigrant labor (the jobs Europeans will not do...sound familiar?), the so called "guest workers" not competition for their govt subsidized and protected jobs.

One of the most hotly disputed issues in the ratification of the EU Constitution has been workers crossing borders. Have you not heard about the Polish Plumber kerfuffle?

So you can image how eager they would be for an influx of American workers...they barely tolerate us on holiday.

Lem said...

I believe the time has just gone ahead.. one hour

Lem said...

wait.. its 3:12 here in NJ and only 1:12 in Madison..

So Madison is waiting until two o'clock so it can be three o'clock.

I think I got it.

BJM said...

@Lem

So Madison is waiting until two o'clock so it can be three o'clock.

LOL! I think you just summed up the kerfuffle in Madison.

Looks like we're the last awake. I hate losing that hour, I am not a morning person.

Seven Machos said...

BJM -- To the left, Europe is always better and Sweden will always be a socialist paradise. The fact that American pension and safety net practices are not far, far more socialist than Sweden's will never matter.

It's always 1979.

Lem said...

This also assumes you are literate in their language, they don't accomodate other languages as do we.

Why would you want to where people have been fighting each other for centuries?

Two World Wars are not the stuff statues of liberties are made of.

Lem said...

and another thing.

Why would somebody want to live in a country the size of Texas.. at best.

We have four time zones and are we are free to go back and forth as we please.

Lem said...

LOL! I think you just summed up the kerfuffle in Madison.

The next generation.. if we keep this up they are not going to look back on us the way we look back on the WW2 generation.

Lem said...

is it 3:00 am?

Lem said...

Las Dos Hermanitas

Lem said...

Samba de Maria Luiza.

doris said...

I am a (management side) labor lawyer. On Friday, I had a client -- a Wisconsin school superintendent --- tell me this: Now we will start transforming education. I hope he can. I will do my part to help.

doris said...

I think of Althouse's class every time I've removed a case to federal court.

Lem said...

..a Wisconsin school superintendent --- tell me this: Now we will start transforming education.

Call me crazy but I believe a superintendent, who is at the school (boots on the ground) should have more say on whether or not a teacher is doing a good job, instead of a first in last out crap shoot union rule.

Its just common sense.

BJM said...

@Lem

Too late, the next generation is already programmed to become govt drones.

On that depressing note, I'm going to bed.

doris said...

Lem you are right. But we have a paradigm shift here. The most interesting and useful conversations now are about what the local communities do with this new paradigm. It is huge, and no one has had a lot of time to really think through what it means for their workplace. So say my public sector clients. But I have faith that they and the communities will make the best of it. Hopefully not on the backs of good workers.

Lem said...

I know waht you mean doris..

When you go from a complaint of No Child Left Behind being that it required testing the students so it could be learned what progress if any the tax payer money investment is having.. to waht Walker is proposing.

I mean, how dare you try to find out if high school students can read.. But thats were we are.

Lem said...

BTW Obama is dismantling No Child Left Behind.

If Obama was as good as being president as he is at trying to dismantle Bush era implementations, I have no doubt he be re-elected.

If people want Obama to do something they just need to tell him Bush refused to do it.. he will spring in action faster than a tsunami wave.

Lem said...

Why doesn't Obama do a Libya No Fly Zone?

Not only would Bush 43 do it, Bush 41 did it in Iraq.. Hell Reagan bombed the place.. that's the last thing Obama wants.. to be identified with Reagan.

doris said...

NCLB has not worked, everyone knows it. It's complicated of course but poverty is the problem.

I wish people would learn and talk about solving problems. I'm a lawyer and parent of 2 small kids in Milwaukee where the schools are about to face a huge paradigm shift, possibly dismantling. I am worried about my community.

Frankly, I have less faith in a world where learned and respected people spend an entire day taking pictures of other people's day literally for the puruse of making fun of them.

Setting my clock forward.

Revenant said...

Why doesn't Obama do a Libya No Fly Zone?

Why doesn't France or Germany or Italy do the damned No Fly Zone this time.

We're already trying to drag TWO Muslim countries into the democracy world. It is somebody else's turn this time.

Lem said...

NCLB has not worked, everyone knows it.

Maybe if added to Walker like reforms it would.

I'm not saying NCLB is perfect.

I'm saying a high school graduate should be able to read and maybe write.. at least as bad as me, or is it I ;)

Lem said...

We're already trying to drag TWO Muslim countries into the democracy world. It is somebody else's turn this time.

Its going to be China's problem eventually anyways.. we might as well hand over the torch now..

Why not?

Alex said...

WI GOPers to skip parade after death threats

Fen said...

No one is arguing that public employees shouldn't have to make wage and benefit concessions, and in fact they already have

No. They have NOT made wage and benefit concessions. Two union leaders without the authority to negotiate on concessions have.

Lem said...

The world will be so much safer for cheap gasoline and all the things we now just dont have because they are so expensive.. when the Chinese take over as the world superpower we will have those in abundance.. I just cant wait.

Fen said...

lucid: my real point is that Althouse and Reynolds, who have been lambasting the Wisconsin teachers

..because taking pics of teachers with stupid signs expressing violent rhetoric = lambasting.

Thats your point?

Lem said...

The world comes to an end because teachers and others are asked to chip in a health care fund..

What would $10.00 a gallon of gas do?

Rhetorical question.. I have to go.

Fen said...

Frankly, I have less faith in a world where learned and respected people spend an entire day taking pictures of other people's day literally for the puruse of making fun of them.

Disagree. The pictures document the extent of which the union parasites have become bloated and out of touch with reality.

The MSM doesn't think you need that information.

These are the brownshirts of the Democrat party. You either check them now with mockery or, once they become violent, you take them down in the streets with IEDs. I prefer the former.

So I'm very happy Althouse & Meade are revealing the true colors of Union Mob rule.

Fen said...

It sucks to be a Democrat though. Your Union Army can't exist if its no longer able to steal funding from the taxpayers.

Nationally,

1) Union strength and influence will diminish. No more corrupt kickback schemes funding Democrat campaigns.

2) The GOP sweep of state legislatures means redistricting, shaping the battlefield less favorably for Dems for the next 10 years

3) The Entitlement Model is broken. There simply isn't any more money for Dems to bribe constiuencies with. Thats over.

4) Dens are on track to lose the Senate, with 23 seats in play in 2012, compared to 10 GOP seats.

edutcher said...

The Lefties, ever more profane and derogatory as their arguments are shot down, can't escape the economic reality.

Unemployment is at least 10.3 (by Gallup(often in the tank for The Zero, BTW)'s count) with a combined un/underemployment of 19.9. This doesn't even take in the 5 - 6.5 mil who have given up.

By saying those who drop out (the so-called 99ers) are no longer in the workforce and thus giving the ludicrous rate of 8.9, this Administration is making itself a laughingstock.

Food and fuel prices are rising - even if Libya stabilizes thanks to The Zero's and Europe's dithering. Again, this is not counted by the CPI, so any claim there is no inflation is proven false by a trip to the gas station or grocery store.

Forget any possible foreign policy disasters due to the Administration's Carteresque bumbling, The Man from Altgeld Gardens has 1 year to turn this around before the electorate loses hope and wants a change.

And even the Lefties know that's not going to happen.

lucid said...
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lucid said...
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lucid said...

@fen, lem, seven assholes, edutcher, etc--

You guys don't realize it, but you have lost. National public opnion is STRONGLY against what Walker has done.

And no one in Wisconsin is going to forget what is happening now.

And if you think that the problem with some schools is that teachers have collective bargaining, then you are a lot more ignorant of the real world than anyone who is an adult should be.

paminwi said...

hey doris: have you watched or listened to ANY of the media coverage of what is happening here in Madison? You can't have because there is only "happiness and light" with the protests. There is no mention of that these people are being thugs, they wreck the capitol, they threaten businesses, they call in sick when they are not with no consequences, they are rushing to renew contracts before the bill is official, they are in collusion with the Secretary of State and I could go on and on.

We need blogs to learn the truth because we will NEVER get it from the regular media.

Christopher said...

Lucid,

Public opinion doesn't care what Walker did. It has already moved on to Japan/Libya/Sheen.

Only about 12% of the nation's workforce is unionized, and only those in PEUs are affected by such restrictions. If you are expecting some sort of leftist TP then you are going to be greatly disappointed.

Unlike the issues of debt and ObamaCare this has next to no effect on the average person. There may be some short term push-back, especially in WI, but this will be all but forgotten by 2012.

mesquito said...

The Koch brothers caused an earthquake to make sure Wisconsin teachers to pay 12 percent of the health insurance premiums. The bastards.

Almost Ali said...

I foresee the day when every resident of Wisconsin willingly donates a portion of their salary to a union. Kids too, like kicking back 10% of their babysitting money and cookie sales to Local 102 of the Teamsters.

lucid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lucid said...

@Chritopher--

Try reading some national polss, like Rasmussen.

Repeatedly, polling has found that Americans oppose what Walker is doing on collective bargaining by a margin of about 2-to-1.

As an example of where Walker stands in the national opinion, both Chris Christie and Mitch Daniels have sharply distanced themselves from him.

Chris Christie has explicitly said that he wants collective bargaining for teachers in his state. Mitch Daniels says he is proud that Indiana teachers are paid $22,000 more than the average worker.

You yahoos are losing respect.

lucid said...

Americans don't like bullies, especially when the bully is a government official taking away rights that have been accepted for decades.

And Americans don't like government officials who demonize and attack a particular class of citizens.

The more people know Walker, the more he will be despised and seen as a crank.

lucid said...

Just think--agovernor who is so unpopular that he cannot go out in public.

As it stands now, Wisonsin has a governor who is so hated that he cannot appear in public because of the level of public protest that would occur.

The story of Scott Walker will be a caution to electable polticians everywhere.

He will be an example of what not to do.

Triangle Man said...

@mesquito

Do you really think insurance premiums are the key issue or are you attempting to push a straw man?

James said...

Just think--agovernor who is so unpopular that he cannot go out in public.

As it stands now, Wisonsin has a governor who is so hated that he cannot appear in public because of the level of public protest that would occur.

The story of Scott Walker will be a caution to electable polticians everywhere.

He will be an example of what not to do.


Really? I just saw Scott Walker on Thursday morning at the Tommy Thompson Youth Center at State Fair Park. He didn't even have any extra security.

LawGirl said...

As it stands now, Wisonsin has a governor who is so hated that he cannot appear in public because of the level of public protest that would occur.
That says more about the protestors than it does about him. Even very popular leaders can be physically harmed by one psycho, much less a whole mob of people high on the union Kool-Aid.

Roger J. said...

not sure the polling data means much at this stage of the game--and national polls probably do not translate well in wisconsin.

ultimately the only poll that counts is at the ballot box--perhaps the unions can pull it off and have recall elections--I am guessing no at this point, but time will tell.

Now if the unions do try to pull it off and fail they will have lost big time--An interesting gamble.

Roger J. said...

And has been pointed out, the 900 pound gorilla in the room is redistricting--the 2010 election cycle turned state houses over to republicans--definitely interesting times ahead.

And I would suggest while the political situation in Wisconsin is interesting, we perhaps should be thinking of the Japanese in light of the massive earthquake and tsunami.

lasckbounce said...

Lucid refers to long standing Rights. I question the definition--if these relations btwn public employees and elected officials are rights they can be reviewed in court. I would hold that the relationship (not rights)worked because the grease was taxpayer funds. NOT RIGHTS ---BUT PROSTITUTION btwn two groups of public employees with tax funds-IT'S OVER. Unless you want to go the route taken in Europe. Can hardly wait for the adult taxpayers in Wisc to express their approval of Gov Walker in the voting booth.

Mary said...

I live in the Fox Valley area of Wisconsin. Several of our school districts rushed to do contracts so they could bypass the new law. The Unions have sent threatening emails to all the local businesses. Post signs supporting them, cancel our memberships in our trade organizations (if they supported Walker in the 2010 election), or be boycotted. My business paid $$$$$ in school district taxes last year. Donated $$$ in product and services to them. Talk about bite the hand that feeds you .....
I have numerous family members that will not talk to me - two of them daughters - because i DARE to be supportive of Walker. It IS a civil war in Wisconsin. Clearly a large percentage of the population, at least here in the Valley, are willing to do ANYTHING to destroy the rest of us. It is just sickening. Would move out of this state in a second if i had the means.

Roger J. said...

Wisconsin may indeed have a civil war but I am sure it will be a "nice" civil war wisconsonites being what they are. I await madison man's comments.

retire05 said...

lucid, you misrepresent the Rasmussen poll. It actually showed that more people supported Walker, than opposed him. It was the Gallup poll that showed the reverse.

But like all typical lefties, you ae long on bull and short on facts.

Unions, in the end, will lose this dangerous game they are playing. Even in Wisconsin, unions represent only 14.8% of the work force. Have you really drank the Kool-aide that makes you believe as other citizens in Wisconsin worry about losing their jobs they care about public sector workers who for too long have made demands the taxpayers can't met?

But the truth of the matter is that this is not about the unions, teachers, benefits. It is about the power the Democratic Party lost last November. Blue states are going to lose representatives, red states are going to gain them, in the federal House. Our economy sucks, and if union workers find that by not paying dues, they get to spend that money on their kids, the unions lose.

When the union loses membership, union management has a harder times explaining their tony salaries, there is less money to dump into Democratic campaign coffers and there is competition for those jobs where employers realize that they no longer have to tolerate a non-performing union worker.

Take a look at the national scene; what states are growing both in population and jobs? Not the "closed shop" union states. And what color are those states that are seeing businesses move out to more tax friendly, right-to-work states?

Americans cannot afford higher taxation to pander to the PEUs. Not when the cost of living is rapidly rising. And those who have already lost their jobs will have little sympathy for those who are guaranteed a job via union regulations.

The unions say they want a seat at the table. So they have dumped millions of $$ into politicians that would pander to them. If the unions are so secure that what they do are beneficial let them put increases in union benefits on the ballot. Taxpayers deserve a seat at the table, as well since they are the ones footing the bill.

What Wisconsin has shown is the desparation of union goons and Democratic politicians who understand the tide has turned for them. I'm just sorry that we have to witness how low they have sank.

lasckbounce said...

Heres an idea --only taxpayers who generate wealth thru economic activity could vote ---you must pay to play. Otherwise your just overhead in the grand scheme of things. Nothing sacred about public provided education or fire service etc etc.....how 'bout dem apples???

lasckbounce said...

Public employees --elected and salaried don't pay taxes--a portion of the money paid them is withheld and designated as taxes --but the funds originated from money paid by actual taxpayers. Come on --- get real people

former law student said...

Europeans only want temporary, unskilled immigrant labor (the jobs Europeans will not do...sound familiar?), the so called "guest workers" not competition for their govt subsidized and protected jobs.

Considering that this is exactly backwards in, say, Germany, I can stop reading there.

Christopher said...

Lucid,

Learn to read.

I never said it was popular, I said people don't really care. Only about 12% of workers are in unions (slightly over half are govt. workers) so the vast majority of people aren't concerned about laws affecting unions.

ObamaCare will destroy the budget and excessive debt will cause future tax increases. These will affect us all. The WI law will only affect some of the PEUs in that state.

Already the issue has faded from the public consciousness as crises in Libya and Japan have occurred.


And I must say that I had quite the laugh at hearing a leftist accuse others of attacking a particular class of people.

Nate Whilk said...

vbspurs said...

In honour of Ruth Anne Adams:

Ruth and Wisconsequences!


As long as we're tinkering:

Ruth an' Wisconsquences!

Nate Whilk said...

lucid said...

Could Ann's and Glenn's neglect of their paid state jobs while they make money elsewhere rise to the level of criminal fraud?

"Grasping at straws", I believe this is called. In other words, desparation.

Nate Whilk said...

lucid said...

Americans don't like bullies, especially when the bully is a government official taking away rights that have been accepted for decades.

Even more especially when the bully is a mob of overpaid government workers demanding the taxpayers maintain their compensation when the taxpayers have financial troubles of their own.

The more people know Walker, the more he will be despised and seen as a crank.

The unions are way ahead of Walker in that respect.

BJM said...

@fls

Considering that this is exactly backwards in, say, Germany, I can stop reading there.

Guess you haven't heard about the Turkish gastarbeiter either.

Nevermind.