March 27, 2011

Shame, shame, shame. Where is the shame?

Is it in wearing a gray hoodie under a tailored blazer, a little black derby hat, and a smelled-a-fart expression while carrying a pre-printed "SHAME" sign when the guy marching after you is wearing a windbreaker and carrying a handmade "TAX the RICH" sign?

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Is it in carrying a 3D representation of the governor's bare ass while being followed by a blanketed-up old woman in a wheelchair against whom is propped a gigantic "SHAME" sign?

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Is it in wheeling around an old woman against whom is propped a gigantic "SHAME" sign and sticking mylar pinwheels into her blankets?

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Is it in marching — while holding, instead of sign, a take-out coffee — while a woman holds up a "SHAME!" sign and you (apparently) supervise a child who is bearing a handmade "InaPPropriate Boob" sign which depicts (presumably) Scott Walker being directed toward a blazing fire.

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Where is the shame? Is it in my photography and my questions? Should I be ashamed to see alternate meanings in the "SHAME" signs the Wisconsin protesters display proudly?

205 comments:

1 – 200 of 205   Newer›   Newest»
Belkys said...

They dont have:
http://detnews.com/article/20110325/OPINION01/103250338

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Should I be ashamed to see alternate meanings in the "SHAME" signs the Wisconsin protesters display proudly?

Yes.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If any of these people turned out to be a teacher in my child's school, I would immediately remove my child from school, contact a local charter school or begin home schooling.

You children are too precious to be entrusted into the care of these unhinged emotionally disturbed people who consider it their duty to indoctrinate rather than teach..

Michael K said...

They don't have any. This is pure personal interest at work. When they say it isn't about the money, you know it's about the money.

Chris said...

Oh Dear. It's another Althouse post trying to deliberately obfuscate the protestors message by focusing on trivialities (clothing, grammer) and apparent inconsistences.

As another piece of red meat is tossed to those hungry to minimize and ridicule what is happening in Wisconsin, the big picture is lost.

The Shame is the way that the Wisconsin Governor and the Legislature have imposed the steep costs facing our state on the backs of the middle and lower classes, on the elderly and on children.

The Shame is the slippery, loophole-riddled manner in which the Governor and the Legislature are conducting Wisconsin's public business.

The Shame is in the weakening of Wisconsin's public institutions, which many feel make our state great.

I could go on, but you don't really want to hear what the people marching outside the Capitol think, do you?

Instead of listening, keep focusing on the trivialities.

Simon said...

How much longer is this going to go on? Don't these people have jobs to do, relationships to enjoy, pets to fuss, and homes to tend?

WV: "Stalik." Well, one letter off.

Big Mike said...

The first guy has a "smelled a fart" expression because he just realized that the word "on" is missing between the word "SHAME" and the acronym on the bottom.

chickelit said...

Historically speaking, there is a good sense of shame and a bad sense. link. Ironically, the protestors display the good sense while trying to emote the latter.

shoutingthomas said...

The Shame is the way that the Wisconsin Governor and the Legislature have imposed the steep costs facing our state on the backs of the middle and lower classes, on the elderly and on children.

No, the middle and lower classes will benefit from lower or at least stable taxes. It is the public employees who are living off the middle and lower classes. The elderly are leading the fight against higher taxes.

The Shame is the slippery, loophole-riddled manner in which the Governor and the Legislature are conducting Wisconsin's public business.

The Fleebaggers could have stayed and voted. They decided to subvert the electoral and legislative process.

The Shame is in the weakening of Wisconsin's public institutions, which many feel make our state great.

Wisconsin's public institutions must operate within the taxpayer's ability to pay.

Nice attempt though.

AllenS said...

It's a shame, that none of these protesters have any ideas concerning the deficit/debt that Wisconsin is facing. Same with the comment protesters.

Simon said...

Or, maybe the shame is in prancing around beneath hackneyed slogans like "tax the rich" long after it has been shown that you could confiscate 100% of the property of the rich and still not pay for the left's vision of the state.

chickelit said...

The Shame is the way that the Wisconsin Governor and the Legislature have imposed the steep costs facing our state on the backs of the middle and lower classes, on the elderly and on children.

Shame is the way the public employee unions foist their pampered benefits and early retirement schemes on the children and grandchildren of that State (I'm using CA as a model).

Even if all the wealth of Koch were appropriated and re-distributed, the PSU's would be back the following year, fists raised, demanding more, more, moore.
When will it end?

MarkG said...

When your guy loses the governor's race, you can be excused for being sad and disappointed. But when you're bitter about a free and fair election, like these people are, it's creepy and they should all be ashamed.

TMink said...

The only shame would be in not branding anyone a contemptible liar who talks about tea party "inspired" violence.

Trey

Chris said...

Shouting Thomas:

I may not agree with your views, but I appreciate your comments.

I don't appreciate the undignified name-calling: "Fleebaggers."

I am not defending the Legislators who fled the state. Two wrongs do not make a right.

My point is that belittling the protestors (or anyone else) is not going to solve the problems facing Wisconsin.

TMink said...

Chris, you only get a pass if you have not made any hyperbolic comments blaming conservatives for being racist or inciting violence in the last week.

Trey

Simon said...

Chris said...
"The Shame is the way that the Wisconsin Governor and the Legislature have imposed the steep costs facing our state on the backs of the middle and lower classes, on the elderly and on children."

Well, let's suppose that's true. On whom should those burdens be imposed? And don't say "the rich"—which rich people? Quantify. What counts as rich, how many people are there in Wisconsin in that bracket, and what should the tax rate on them be? You have to have answers to all of those questions—and the answers must help your cause—to have a credible point.


"I could go on, but you don't really want to hear what the people marching outside the Capitol think, do you?"

I've they've had an original thought since the 1930s, I'd like to hear it.

Chris said...

"Shame is the way the public employee unions foist their pampered benefits and early retirement schemes on the children and grandchildren of that State (I'm using CA as a model)."

Chikelit, I do not necessarily disagree with your values or your concern, but if you were better informed, you would know that Wisconsin's pension system, unlike that of CA or IL, is well funded.

You may argue that public employees should be paid less, but that point was conceded early on in the process.

In order to grapple with the problems facing Wisconsin, we need to have a well-informed discussion.

Chris said...

TMink/Trey:

?

I'm not following you.

edutcher said...

Chris said...

It's another Althouse post trying to deliberately obfuscate the protestors message by focusing on trivialities (clothing, grammer) and apparent inconsistences.

Uh, it's grammar. But what does it matter that an illiterate mob wants to tear down the rule of law?

Words, just words.

As another piece of red meat is tossed to those hungry to minimize and ridicule what is happening in Wisconsin, the big picture is lost.

The Shame is the way that the Wisconsin Governor and the Legislature have imposed the steep costs facing our state on the backs of the middle and lower classes, on the elderly and on children.


How dare those Republicans expect state workers to pay for a portion of their own insurance just like everyone else?

bagoh20 said...

This reminds me of Freeman's note last night of the branding of the London protests.

It's not bright to print signs with only "SHAME" and your logo on it.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

In order to grapple with the problems facing Wisconsin, we need to have a well-informed discussion.


LOL!!!!! Good luck with that one!

Haven't you heard, Chris? It's all about blind conviction these days. The stronger you feel it, the less well-informed it is, the better. It makes them feel alive.

Chris said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
James said...

>>Chikelit, I do not necessarily disagree with your values or your concern, but if you were better informed, you would know that Wisconsin's pension system, unlike that of CA or IL, is well funded.<<

So help me understand. The generous benefits paid to Wisconsin's public employees - cadillac health care, teacher emeritus status, etc. - are funded by the pension system?

Chris said...

edutcher:

Thanks for the spelling tips. I have always been terrible at spelling and grammar and can use all the help I can get.

My primary criticism was not aimed at the Republicans. It was aimed at the level of discourse that Prof. Althouse is promoting on her blog.

In my view, she's really dumbing the debate down.

bagoh20 said...

"In my view, she's really dumbing the debate down."

C'mon, it's not really that complicated is it? It's 1st grade math.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I do not necessarily disagree with your values or your concern, but if you were better informed, you would know that Wisconsin's pension system, unlike that of CA or IL, is well funded.

For now. And funded by whom?

Unless they adjust their actuarial assumptions to realistic returns the contributions (paid for by the taxpayers in large and at 100% by the taxpayers in many cases) not be enough to continue funding.

Without contributions from employees, the taxpayer contributions will have to skyrocket.

Just where do you think that money is coming from?

It is coming from the income of people who don't have fabulous pension plans or free health care and who can't even dream of affording such benefits.

The greedy needy public unionized employees don't think about this. They don't care. It is all about them and their greed and wants.

This is the real SHAME.

madAsHell said...

Do you score extra points for bringing handicapped relatives to hold up signs?

Big Mike said...

@Chris, is there a point where you plan to grow up? The shame is not on the governor and the Republicans in the legislature for doing what they said they'd do. The shame is Dumbocrat senators for skulking out of the state in the dead of night, and then bargaining in bad faith their counterparts.

You wrote "The Shame is the way that the Wisconsin Governor and the Legislature have imposed the steep costs facing our state on the backs of the middle and lower classes, on the elderly and on children."

I can only assume that you were talking about Walker's predecessor and the Democrat-dominated legislature that preceded the 2010 election. Walker and the Republicans are trying to cope with the steep costs that Doyle and his merry cronies pushed onto the state. Has it occurred to you, Chris, that $3.6 billion is a lot of money? Apparently not.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I don't think she's trying to dumb it down, Chris. She's trying to inject some passion into one of the few things that conservatives can be bothered to become passionate about: How horrible our self-government must really be!!!

Lord knows they're not going to display any passion about things that deserve it - like a good romp or two. That stuff must be clandestine and attended to very seriously. Just ask Chris Lee.

AllenS said...

Go ahead, Chris, and tell us what Wisconsin should do to get rid of the present deficit/debt that we face. Or, do you think that we shouldn't talk about it on this blog?

G Joubert said...

The public school systems' primary purpose has morphed from being a place to educate children to being the place which showers on persons with education degrees 100% secure jobs, handsome pay, and a lifetime treasure trove of benefits. That's the shame, and no, they feel none, because they're convinced they're entitled. That makes it shame X2.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Also something you MAY NOT be passionate about: The plight of those who are less well-off than you. Be stoic about the suffering of others and force some stoicism upon them as well! Let them feel just how unappreciated they are!!! They are not wealthy business owners, after all. They deserve nothing!

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

That "handsome pay" doesn't kick in until about 20 years or more of taking your knocks from ignorant parents and their Ritalin-medicated kids, Joubert. Again, facts would be nice.

Chris said...

Dust Bunny Queen:

The "greedy union employees" theme has been beaten to death. The state unions conceded early on to the concessions sought by Gov. Walker.

These same employees had already been subject to austerity with furlough days, etc.

The point has repeatedly been made that public employees traded higher pay against better benefits.

I agree that whether public employees should be paid more or less is an important issue and should be debated.

The trade off between the pay afforded to public servants and the level of public service that we receive in Wisconsin is an important issue and should be debated.

Under the leadership of the Governor and the Legislature, these debates did not take place: Shame.

Labeling things "cadillac" smacks of sloppy, dogmatic thinking, and is not persuasive.

rhhardin said...

Where are the "modesty" signs?

David53 said...

How horrible our self-government must really be!!!

What's horrible and a shame is the size of our bloated government and how many people feel entitled to spend other people's money.

Headless Blogger said...

Tax the rich? Good luck buddy.

I'll be moving my domicile from WI to AZ very soon. AZ's soon to be enacted 2.13% flat tax is another freakin' giveaway to the rich. That's me!

bagoh20 said...

Most wealthy business owners never had a guaranteed job with guaranteed benefits. That's why they got rich. There is nothing compassionate about treating public employees like children for their entire lives.

Paddy O said...

"In my view, she's really dumbing the debate down."

By, um, showing pictures of protesters?


Althouse is probably, also, one of the few people who highlighted the teach-in a little while back, taking the discussion far deeper. Both Meade and Althouse have shown their willingness to participate in discussions, in person, with key people, when those opportunities arise.

You're belittling Althouse by trying to act the school-marm and talk down to her, all while affecting a pleasant humility.

The trouble is there is no real interest in discussion or dialogue, not by protesters, by the very nature of their approach. It's jingoistic attempts to deride the opponents by any means possible, whether by juvenile props or putting the burden of civility only on their opponents.

Chris said...

AllenS:

I agree with you. My point is that these topics should have been debated!

Specifically, these topics should have been debated in the Wisconsin Legislature and were not: Shame (just to be clear: this point applies to both parties).

rhhardin said...

The point with unions isn't concessions but above-market wages and benefits.

Unions exist by providing above-market wages and benefits.

Normally the company goes out of business and the problem solves itself, leaving people older but wiser.

There's a structural dynamic though with government workers that keeps wages and benefits above market until gunfire eventually fixes it.

You might want to opt out before that.

One way to opt out is fix the dynamics, in particular with regard to work rules so you can fire the worst instead of the best and maybe get closer to your money's worth.

Another work rule change is the ability to hire nonunion workers.

Pay dues if you want; if not, not.

The organized crime aspect of unions is then pretty much defanged and the market will take its course.

madAsHell said...

have imposed the steep costs
Legislature doesn't impose steep costs. Legislature imposes taxes. The Governor is trying to avoid raising taxes.

slippery, loophole-riddled manner in which the Governor and the Legislature are conducting Wisconsin's public business
Yeah....like running off to Illinois.

weakening of Wisconsin's public institutions, which many feel make our state great.
Name 3 public institutions worth defending?
Who are the many?

Ann Althouse said...

"Show me a trombonist, and I'll show you a child whose parents picked out the instrument for him."

I remember Rush Limbaugh talking about playing the trombone so he could poke the other kids with it and cause trouble. The troublone.

David53 said...

Under the leadership of the Governor and the Legislature, these debates did not take place: Shame.

These debates took place at the ballot box. Just like the national debates on health care did.

EDH said...

Damn shame, these protesters with no shame.

What they don't seem to realize is that the more they remove themselves from the mainstream with their antics and demonstrations of arrogance, they weaken their own ability to conjure and project the social disapprobation that is the basis of shame.

According to cultural anthropologist Ruth Benedict, shame is a violation of cultural or social values while guilt feelings arise from violations of one's internal values...

A condition or state of shame may also be assigned externally, by others, regardless of the one's own experience or awareness. "To shame" generally means to actively assign or communicate a state of shame to another. Behaviors designed to "uncover" or "expose" others are sometimes used for this purpose, as are utterances like "Shame!" or "Shame on you!"

Finally, to "have shame" means to maintain a sense of restraint against offending others (as with modesty, humility, and deference) while to "have no shame" is to behave without such restraint (as with excessive pride or hubris).

Maguro said...

Specifically, these topics should have been debated in the Wisconsin Legislature and were not: Shame (just to be clear: this point applies to both parties).

And why wasn't there a debate in the legislature?

Oh, that's right, because the Democrats ran off to Illinois. Thre was no one to debate with.

That's why.

Chris said...

Paddy O.

As I've previously noted, Prof. Althouse's criticisms have at times been excellent.

There's way too much silly, trivial nonsense though-- just as silly as some of the protestors.

I think that Prof. Althouse wants civility, but ridicule is not the road to civility.

Your comment is well taken.

rhhardin said...

The buttocks sign ought to have a pudendum instead, to go with the shame theme.

L pudere, to be ashamed.

Be impudent.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

The point has repeatedly been made that public employees traded higher pay against better benefits

And that point is repeatedly wrong. I am not going to call you a liar, just misinformed. That was a truism many years ago, BEFORE unionization of public employees. It is not now.

Public employee wages are statistically the same or often higher than comprable occupations in the private sector, especially for those jobs that are not specialized or require college degrees (architect or scientific disciplines for example).

The wage discrepancies also vary not only by occupations, they vary by geographic localities.

So while their wages are the same or higher NOW, they also are receiving the benefit packages, making their total compensation very large compared to private sector equivilants. PLUS they are guaranteed jobs no matter how poorly they perform.

The process of public employee pensions and benefits is unsustainable in its current form. The process of private Unionized pensions and benefits have been the driving factor in destroying industry in the US and driving jobs overseas and in the decay and destruction of major urban centers.

The fact that you and yours don't care, refuse to see, won't listen and throw temper tantrums when faced with reality....THIS is the SHAME.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

What's horrible and a shame is the size of our bloated government and how many people feel entitled to spend other people's money.

Which costs how much when compared to REAL entitlements, defense and tax cuts? Things that will never be cut.

BTW, how's the mathematical progress on earmarks coming along?

If we had a sensible tax structure and hadn't encouraged a housing bubble you know this wouldn't have happened. It's an entirely self-induced crisis. I won't join you in crying "Waaaah!"

The richest people at the top know that they will always have the talent to make a buck. It's those lower-down scabs in their tax bracket who know that they're not pulling their fair share by actually coming up with good ideas to grow the economy. Their betters (those at the absolute top) support tax increases.

AllenS said...

Chris said...

Specifically, these topics should have been debated in the Wisconsin Legislature and were not:


Do you maybe think that's because the Democratic party politicians fled the state? Who in the hell was stopping the debate, Chris? I'd like you to tell me.

WV: beerm

One too many letters.

garage mahal said...

And why wasn't there a debate in the legislature?.

Walker said there wasn't anything to debate, or negotiate. He told fake Koch that if he had heard he was negotiating, it was only to trick Democrats into returning to Wisconsin. After hearing that, you'd have to be pretty stupid to come back and negotiate with this crew.

Paddy O said...

I don't get how there wasn't any debate. The trouble is that at the end of the day, after a debate, people still have a side they prefer, and vote based on their chosen position. Debating to no end is just a delaying tactic rather than an intentional discussion.

Elections have consequences, and when one's political opponents vote in policies which one may disagree with that's not shame. That's democracy. I don't know why you think democracy is shameful, Chris.

You're also very much watering down that word, belittling your opponents by adopting an assumed superior tone. Why do you get to the be the arbiter of political discourse?

It's a lot like the whole "new civility" discussions we heard after the Arizona shooting. It's posturing, a rhetorical ploy used against opponents more than applied to oneself or one's own side of things. Of all the uncivil contributions or dumbing down of the conversations that's going on, Althouse certainly is among the least offenders. Merely because she is presenting images of one side makes her more of a part of a more balanced media contribution, one that among the many other sources offers a picture of what exactly the "discussion" looks like on the streets, which includes both the thoughtful and the idiotic, both the dedicated and the poseurs.

David53 said...

Which costs how much when compared to REAL entitlements, defense and tax cuts? Things that will never be cut.

That's a point I can agree with you on. Let's cut miltary spending about 20 percent for starters, close most of our overseas bases, and bring home our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Next, reduce the number of civil service jobs and close useless agencies like Dept of Education and the postal service.

JohnJ said...

Chris said...
“Instead of listening, keep focusing on the trivialities.”

That's an odd criticism in that the left typically chooses to make its argument with exactly the kinds of staged events, slogans, and other “optics” that presumably would qualify as trivialities. It's shameful, but they appear shameless. And, apparently we're not to comment as the zany parade passes by.

shoutingthomas said...

Walker said there wasn't anything to debate, or negotiate. He told fake Koch that if he had heard he was negotiating, it was only to trick Democrats into returning to Wisconsin. After hearing that, you'd have to be pretty stupid to come back and negotiate with this crew.

The problem is that the Fleebaggers fled in the first place, thus subverting the electoral and legislative process.

Nice attempt at turning the entire thing on its head. Lying is never beneath you, garbage. You'll tell any kind of lie to gain advantage.

Not all people are totally unethical underhanded cheats like you, garbage. Surprising as that may seem to you.

Irene said...

There's a lot of shame in putting a sign that includes the phrase "Bend over, Mr. Walker" in the lap of a 91-year old wheelchair occupant.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

That's a nice defense of arbitrary preferences in policymaking and castigating "reason" as a form of elitism.

The republic is doomed.

bagoh20 said...

In an attempt to raise the level of discourse, I'd like to offer that the lady in the wheelchair looks really comfy. That's the way to protest.

If you live in a large city, did you ever notice that the majority of cars with handicap placards using the handicap spots are large Black women, even though they are a small minority of the population? Is there an epidemic of handicapage in the Black community, and shouldn't it be studied to find a cure?

Carol_Herman said...

Many more people come out for the Doo-Dah.

You call the gent's hat a "Derby." But wasn't it the same "Bowler" Charlie Chalin used to wear? He was born in London. When he grew up, to entertain people, he added a mustache. You know. The one hitler copied.

Peaceful Assembly was always meant to work like a valve, to release energy. No harm at all. One of our wonderful features.

Exceptional camera work by you folks.

vnjagvet said...

I think that Prof. Althouse wants civility, but ridicule is not the road to civility.

But you must admit it's a bit more civil than sculptured bare ass signs and Hitler or Mubarik depictions of Walker.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

That's a point I can agree with you on. Let's cut miltary spending about 20 percent for starters, close most of our overseas bases, and bring home our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Next, reduce the number of civil service jobs and close useless agencies like Dept of Education and the postal service.

I see you can't agree to substantive savings without throwing in a few knocks against your selected, mathematically insignificant pet peeves.

So, no spending cuts without cutting things that we don't spend much money on, but that you hate anyway for some reason.

Ok. If that's how you want to prove your seriousness about it...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

The 11:54 comment was for Paddy O, BTW. Just for the record.

Maguro said...

Walker said there wasn't anything to debate, or negotiate. He told fake Koch that if he had heard he was negotiating, it was only to trick Democrats into returning to Wisconsin. After hearing that, you'd have to be pretty stupid to come back and negotiate with this crew

You're confusing the terms "debate" and "negotiate". I never said that the Republicans were willing to renegotiate the terms of their legislation, nor were they under any obligation to do so. All the legislative process requires is that the minority party get the opportunity to express their objections on the record, both to change the minds of their fellow legislators and appeal to public opinion. That is exactly what happened with Obamacare, the Republicans got to say their piece, then the law was put to a vote.

ricpic said...

Hey Chris, I'm glad you got your rocks off with that leftist screed but you know as well as I do that the rich, your hated unto death top 3%, pay the overwhelming bulk of taxes paid at every level of government: federal, state and local.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

So you're saying we should tax them more, ripcord?

Lincolntf said...

So all these people wandering around with "Shame" signs have the time, energy and money to spend all day parading, eh? How many of them have lifted a finger or donated a penny to repair the damage they've already caused? A big fat honking ZERO is my guess. If they spent less time hating Walker and more time repecting Wisconsin, they wouldn't be such detested laughingstocks.

kate said...

How dare those Republicans expect state workers to pay for a portion of their own insurance just like everyone else?

They have been paying in all along. And as Chris said, paying in more was conceded very early on (I thought these two points were cleared up a while ago).

vnjagvet said...

I don't get the BS about Walker and the Republicans "refusing to negotiate". Negotiate what? When you have the votes to pass legislation, you pass it. Negotiation is necessary when you have to pick up votes from your opponents to pass legislation. In this case, that simply wasn't necessary.

I doubt when the legislature was controlled by democrats and the Governor was also a democrat there was any negotiating with republicans before passing legislation.

garage mahal said...

Nice attempt at turning the entire thing on its head. Lying is never beneath you, garbage. You'll tell any kind of lie to gain advantage.

I didn't lie, Walker did. Simulataneously he was saying there isn't anything to negotiate and that Democrats need to come back to negotiate.

Well, actually he did he tell the truth to who he thought was major backer, so there's that, pouting thomas.

ricpic said...

Check those reading glasses Montana Urban Dreck.

vnjagvet said...

Maguro:

I was writing when I should have been refreshing. It is good to see we think alike on the negotiation BS.

Lincolntf said...

"I don't get the BS about Walker and the Republicans "refusing to negotiate".


It's because they have to strike some sort of aggrieved pose while extorting the populace by mob violence, fleeing the State, corrupting the Courts, etc. They know that the dimwits that make up their base will latch onto whatever bullshit grievance they claim and then use it as justification for their rampages.

Canuck said...

Crude aesthetics are unappealing.

I find a greater shame in the actions of state political parties who target and attempt to intimidate, silence, and fire academics.

What poses the greater harm to the polity?

Simon said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
Paddy wants to "close useless agencies like Dept of Education and the postal service." "I see you can't agree to substantive savings without throwing in a few knocks against your selected, mathematically insignificant pet peeves."

In the 2010 budget, DoE was awarded $46.7 billion. To be sure, abolishing it will not fix the federal budget, ceteris paribus, but that is not "mathematically insignificant." It's the seventh largest federal department by expenditure with a budget only slightly larger than those of
Justice, Treasury, and Interior combined. It has two and a half times the budget of NASA, six and a half times the budget of the NSF, and nine times the budget of the Army Corps of Engineers.

Nor is abolishing it an idiosyncrasy of Paddy. Many of us want to do that, albeit not just for financial reasons.

James said...

Chris said:
AllenS:

I agree with you. My point is that these topics should have been debated!

Specifically, these topics should have been debated in the Wisconsin Legislature and were not: Shame (just to be clear: this point applies to both parties).


These issues were debated in the Assembly. The debate lasted for over 60 hours - a record for the Wisconsin Assembly. At the end of this debate the Republicans voted in favor of the governor's budget repair bill. Weren't you paying attention?

Tell me Chris, where were you when Governor Doyle pushed through his 2009 Budget Repair bill without any debate in either the Assembly or Senate?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

They have been paying in all along. And as Chris said, paying in more was conceded very early on (I thought these two points were cleared up a while ago).

Also, not true and/or misleading.

How much do the public employees contribute in percentage to their retirement compared to the whole contribution? Many contribute nothing for their own side or very little a few percentage points of the total.... and the rest of their contribution is 'picked up' by the employer.

Plus the employer (the tax payer) contributes the rest of the total.

In essence the public employees are getting a free ride on their pension plan AND also a free ride on their health insurance.

Kate....do you even KNOW how much your monthly premiums for health insurance ARE? I doubt it. Do you even wonder how much the tax payers are putting into your retirement plan monthly? Do you even care to know? I doubt it.

Chip Ahoy said...

The shame is in the shoes (and other sartorial choices).

Quayle said...

Chris, you talk a good game of civility, but your main argument belies that you truly believe in it.

Unions by nature rely on violence and threats to succeed, and you don't even know, or don't even care.

When unions price their members out of the market - when they've extracted wages and benefits above what the market will support - they risk losing their jobs to lower wage workers.

If those lower wage workers are in the same location, then unions can only remain viable if they threaten violence on the lower wage workers that just want a job. They threaten and bully scabs.

Unions also use force when they require all employees to pay dues, regardless of whether the employee wants to join the union or not.

The entire structure is riddled with coercion and threats and is therefore fundamentally immoral.

Union civility? It is an oxymoron.

gail said...

There was hours of public hearing before the vote was supposed to take place. I seem to remember a hearing that was supposed to end in the afternoon was allowed to continue until the next day, and it was shortly after that hearing ended the fleebaggers ran.

And yes, I use that fleebagger label because anyone who refuses to do their job (staying and voting) has no honor and deserves no respect.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Well, you said that they (top 3%) weren't being shown sufficient appreciation for their tax contribution, so I'm willing to allow you to give them a chance to prove that they deserve that, RipDick. If the budget crisis is so pressing, such a disastrous problem, why do you object to them doing the patriotic thing to help resolve it, by contributing more? Wouldn't that facilitate the appreciation/patronage that you think they so richly deserve?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

But weren't the fleebaggers lied to by Kochsucker Walker in the first place? Why would so damn much of Wisconsin be up in arms if they thought that these proposals, let alone the sneaky and heavy-handed way in which he's forced them on WI, were part of the platform he ran on?

David53 said...

I see you can't agree to substantive savings without throwing in a few knocks against your selected,

Sure I can. DoD budget is about 700B, SocSec is about 700B Discretionary spending is about 700B. Cut all of them by about 20% percent. That would be a nice start. Medicare and Medicaid, 800B, I would only cut by 10%. That's most of the budget right there, not just my selected targets.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

That is indeed most of the budget right there. You can get agreement from Democrats on cutting it, but the right will not do so as by then their older constituents will revolt.

But whatever. The tough thing needs to be done. Raise taxes on the top margins, too, and you'll have gained respect from the super-rich, and not just the bottom of the top bracket super-rich wanna-be schmucks who just happen to own small businesses, and don't create the real innovations that have driven our economy, as Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, etc., have done.

Trust me. With all the reality TV show antics on the right, making friends with the tech geniuses and the Hollywood elite will be much more to your benefit.

Chuck said...

No.

Shame is when a small minority of the working class (unions) think the American Dream is a government handout, via unsustainable work rules and pension plans..

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Better yet, create another bracket or two (or three, what the hell?!) specifically for the super-rich. That way the bottom of the bracket super-rich wanna-bes still keep their vaunted 35% rate. It's a win-win.

Chuck said...

@cons 4 better, blah, blah,

Why would so damn much of Wisconsin be up in arms....

Pipe dream. So damned many of Wisconsin citizens are damned tired of your shi* and wish you guys/gals would pack your tents, crock pots, blankets, etc and go home.

Trust me, it's over for the freeloaders. Not only in Wisconsin.

cubanbob said...

Chris said...
"Shame is the way the public employee unions foist their pampered benefits and early retirement schemes on the children and grandchildren of that State (I'm using CA as a model)."

Chikelit, I do not necessarily disagree with your values or your concern, but if you were better informed, you would know that Wisconsin's pension system, unlike that of CA or IL, is well funded.

You may argue that public employees should be paid less, but that point was conceded early on in the process.

In order to grapple with the problems facing Wisconsin, we need to have a well-informed discussion.

3/27/11 11:14 AM

Cris I hate to bust your bubble but there NO well funded public pensions anywhere in the country. None whatsoever. Any plan that assumes a rate of return of over 4% in the current environment is just a plain fraud. All plans are underfunded and need to be capitalized and that is going to take a much larger contribution on the part of the employee. Remember self-emloyed people are kicking in to social security 12.4% of gross pay until age 65. That is what public sectors employees need to contribute to make the retirement scheme even feasible. There is simply no way WI public pension scheme or any public pension scheme can fulfill it's promises based on the current employee/employer contribution level and the false percentage of yield assumed in the plans.

The money isn't there, there aren't enough 'rich' to tax to get there and eventually they won't find anyone to lend to them so what these protesters are demanding is that someone else's ox gets gored so their doesn't. Good luck with that.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

No polls, no numbers, no math, Chuck. Just empty assertions and a pretension to speaking for the majority. You've got the empty conviction thing down pat.

I like the baby avatar, though. Did you get permission to use it? I love talk of "freeloading" from people willing to exploit little kids.

Chuck said...

@cons 4 blah, blah,

THAT baby avatar is my grandson.

The same grandson who I would never think of foisting a world of debt just to satisfy my retirement package.

Your comment about exploiting kids is beyond the pale.....asshole.

WineSlob said...

A limerick in honor of Meade heaping shame upon some lefty protestors the other day for their cavalier and pejorative use of the term "teabagger":

The Gist of the Label Teabagger
Concerns Where One Dangles One's Wanger
O'er a Half-Willing Pie Hole
Ain't Where It Should Go
Wherefore Art Thou Regular Old Banger?

Fen said...

The "greedy union employees" theme has been beaten to death. The state unions conceded early on to the concessions sought by Gov. Walker.

Thats another lie. The unions conceded nothing. What happened was that two union guys with no authority to negotiate on behalf of the state unions said the unions would accept those concessions.

lemondog said...

This is cause for SHAME !!!........ when government tyrants refuse to allow citizens of Ft Wayne, Indiana to honor a former mayor.... :O

The people have spoken!!!

LilyBart said...

"Tax the Rich"?

The rich are already being heavily taxed. No level of taxation will ever be enough for these people.

What big government 'collectivism' gets us is citizens protesting in the streets to get more money out of the pocket of their neighbors. Disgraceful.

garage mahal said...


Cris I hate to bust your bubble but there NO well funded public pensions anywhere in the country. None whatsoever.


Here in Wisconsin employees pay 100% of their pension benefits. Taxpayers pay zero. The WRS is 100% fully funded. I suspect that zombie lie you wrote will live on though, like so many right wing zombie lies.

MarkG said...

This is cause for SHAME !!!........ when government tyrants refuse to allow citizens of Ft Wayne, Indiana to honor a former mayor.... :O

And with no mention of his one-eyed deputy.

David53 said...

@C4

You can get agreement from Democrats on cutting(the budget)

Really? Which Democrats are in favor of cutting socsec and medicare payments by at least 10%?

cubanbob said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
Well, you said that they (top 3%) weren't being shown sufficient appreciation for their tax contribution, so I'm willing to allow you to give them a chance to prove that they deserve that, RipDick. If the budget crisis is so pressing, such a disastrous problem, why do you object to them doing the patriotic thing to help resolve it, by contributing more? Wouldn't that facilitate the appreciation/patronage that you think they so richly deserve?

3/27/11 12:28 PM

The other side of the coin is to reduce pay and benefits of public employees. Consider that a tax. Of course there is nothing to prevent public sector employees from seeking employment in the private sector. The budget crises isn't a problem for the rich, they pay a disproportionate share to begin with and most of the budget items have no benefit to them so cutting the budget doesn't hurt them in the least. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I would never think of foisting a world of debt just to satisfy my retirement package.

But you would think of foisting debt upon them by satisfying the retirement "needs" of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc.

Truth hurts, huh?

E.M. Davis said...

Fixed the first image for you, Professor.

David53 said...

@garage,

Here in Wisconsin employees pay 100% of their pension benefits. Taxpayers pay zero

Taxpayers don't pay for public employees compensation packages? Where does the money come from?

E.M. Davis said...

But you would think of foisting debt upon them by satisfying the retirement "needs" of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc.

Who did both of those men vote for in 2008?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Really? Which Democrats are in favor of cutting socsec and medicare payments by at least 10%?

Why such little faith in a party that actually has cut deficits and even raised surpluses? What informs your worldview when salient facts and that history don't?

David53 said...

@C4,

So you can't actually name any names. Didn't think so.

Lombardi Chick said...

But you would think of foisting debt upon them by satisfying the retirement "needs" of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc.

Truth hurts, huh?


You owe that gentleman an apology for your crass comments regarding his grandson, but this is what you come back with.

Not exactly a surprise, I guess.

E.M. Davis said...

That way the bottom of the bracket super-rich wanna-bes still keep their vaunted 35% rate. It's a win-win.

What's a fair tax rate for the evil rich? Tell me.

I don't pretend to know myself.

damikesc said...

Kate, if the unions agreed to concessions early on, can you name the officials with the authority to agree who did so...and why have they been pushing contracts thru sympathetic districts with none of the requirements as quickly as possible?

E.M. Davis said...

the bottom of the top bracket super-rich wanna-be schmucks who just happen to own small businesses

Who just happen to own small businesses?

What? Did they stumble upon them in their travels?

Do you have any clue what it's like to own and run any business?

E.M. Davis said...

Why such little faith in a party that actually has cut deficits and even raised surpluses?

Great economies and an opposition Congress can work wonders.

Brad said...

It's the look of smug self-satisfaction on their faces ....

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Buffet's views on Republican sacred cows such as the estate tax are well known.

As are those of the other super-rich on voting preferences.

It's the bottom-of-the-bracket rich who prefer Republicans. The actual super-rich tend to go Democrat.

I apologize if I assume too much knowledge on your part in all this.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Here in Wisconsin employees pay 100% of their pension benefits. Taxpayers pay zero

Complete and utter BULLSHIT.

Why do you keep repeating this lie when it is easily shown to be a lie.

http://www.wpri.org/Reports/Volume23/Vol23No2/Vol23No2.html


http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Wisconsin_public_pensions

"Wisconsin's 267,000 public workers pay next to nothing out-of-pocket toward their pensions. State and local governments are supposed to pay half the retirement contribution, with employees paying the rest. But in Wisconsin, many union contracts stipulate that the employer -- which means taxpayers -- picks up the employee's share."

Are you completely stupid? Or are you just trying to imitate a moron?

Lincolntf said...

Speaking of shame as a partisan issue, where's the outrage at scheming bottom-feeders like Tim Geithner and Charlie Rangel? They and the rest of their Democrat ilk spend every waking moment demanding more tax money from the private sector while telling the IRS to fuck off when it comes to their own taxes. They love to help the poor little kiddies with my money, but never with their own.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

What if I think it's crass to use a picture of a kid for an anonymous Blogger profile?

damikesc said...

Gm, yes, the fund is fully funded.

...As long as its investments post a rate of return much larger than they are or possbly can do for any length of time.

ken in sc said...

I chose the trombone myself, because it sounded sort of like a saxophone and I knew my parents could not afford a saxophone.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Chris,

Labeling things "cadillac" smacks of sloppy, dogmatic thinking, and is not persuasive.

Did DBQ use "Cadillac"? I can't find it.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ Garage

http://www.wisconsin.edu/hr/benefits/retsav/wrs.htm#ret

Note the chart where it clearly states

For most employees the University pays the entire contribution.

1.(Employee-Required ContributionDeposited in your WRS account)

2. Employer-Required Contribution (Deposited in the WRS employer reserve)

General Employees and Teachers
5% of salary (1)
6% (includes 1.2% (2)
benefit adjustment contribution)

Executives
3.2% (1)
8.7% (2)

Protectives
5.5% (1)
15.2% (includes 6.6% (2)
Duty Disability contribution)


More? Or are you just going to keep repeating this idiotic lie?

I hope you don't have a job that requires brainpower or other people's safety.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Ann,

I remember Rush Limbaugh talking about playing the trombone so he could poke the other kids with it and cause trouble. The troublone.

Not a good idea. Trombones are a lot more fragile than you'd think, and if you dent the slide you're going to be out a lot of money to have it fixed. I worked not long ago for a music store that rented all sorts of instruments, and there was an entire trombone-specific paragraph in the rental contract.

Fen said...

Complete and utter BULLSHIT. Why do you keep repeating this lie when it is easily shown to be a lie.

Yup. I want to thank Chris for showing up and trying to argue pro-Union. As each of his points have been refuted, it becomes clear why the Union folks prefer Walker=Hitler hyperbole.

damikesc said...

Hey, Ritmo, when was the last Democratic Congress to pass a balanced budget?

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David said...

My less sainted parent usually lead off criticism with "you should be ashamed of yourself."

I took this far less to heart once I learned the concept of projection.

David said...

Not a good idea. Trombones are a lot more fragile than you'd think . . .

Not a problem. Rush had 76 trombones.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Probably before GWB blew it up in 2001.

After that, all bets were off. The hole the Rs dug from 2001 - 2006 cannot be recovered from in one year. Absolutely impossible. Their shortsightedness - then and now - will cost us a much longer recovery plan.

DADvocate said...

That damn Obama's doing more union busting. To the White House t protest!!

The U.S. isn’t allowing flight attendants at financially strapped American Airlines to walk the picket lines any time soon, and that could change the tone of labor negotiations across the industry, some experts said Friday.

The National Mediation Board, the U.S. agency that referees labor-management relations for airlines, has ignored a request made a year ago by the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, asking the federal government to release it from negotiations for what’s called a 30-day cooling-off period, which then allows for a strike.

garage mahal said...

Are you completely stupid? Or are you just trying to imitate a moron?

So your proof is an article in the startribune and a free market think tank? Jesus. No wonder you're so confused. I thought you were a financial planner of some sort?
Wisconsin workers currently pay 100 percent from their compensation package, but a portion of it is deducted from their paychecks and a portion of it goes directly to the pension plan. The money the state "contributes" is actually part of the compensation that has been negotiated with state workers in advance so it is their money that they choose to take as pension payments in the future rather than cash wages or other benefits today. I don't know exactly how other states run their plans, or how other unions run their plans, but I know how it's done here.

kate said...

Yes, DBQ, I do know and I know that it will be the same after the budget repair bill goes through - I'll be taking home less to make up the difference. I'm not getting your point.

Alex said...

Look a normal person looks at these dufuses and comes to the right conclusions. Then you have the Chris/Ritmo types who look at them and beam with pride. That tells you everything. They worship garbage and consign all decent people to the garbage bin.

Alex said...

garage - explain to me why in a recession where millions of private sector workers have lost their jobs that public sector workers should ALL retain theirs. What happened to "share the pain"?

dpreston04 said...

Garage,
why anyone bothers, including myself, I can't explain....but are you just a liar or really this ignorant? It doesn't matter what Walker said about negotiating because the Dems were already gone.....hence , they ceased any opportunity for negotiations when they left. Only if you believe that thwarting the will of the people by running away from your sworn duty is an acceptable form of governing, could you possible argue that Walkers comments in the call were against negotiating. If you actually believe that shirking your sworn duties as a Dem and running away from negotiations is acceptable then at least admit that you don't accept this country's current form of government and admit that you prefer 1 party rule (only your party of course) instead of the will of the voters. I know honesty is a real problem for libs, but man up....if you can.

Or, if what I suggest about you isn't true....then liar is the only other alternative...which is also an acceptable trait for a leftist, as long as the ends justifies the means, of course. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that you are a liar in areas other than politics because that would make you so....I don't know...ordinary?

Alex said...

Rasmussen poll - Public sector unions more hostile to GOP then private sector ones

MayBee said...

The money the state "contributes" is actually part of the compensation that has been negotiated with state workers in advance so it is their money that they choose to take as pension payments in the future rather than cash wages or other benefits today.

Then putting more in now via payroll deduction shouldn't be a problem. It will just mean less of their compensation that goes in directly from the state. Ditto the insurance premiums.
It's all zero sum.

Alex said...

What about the SHAME these protesters should feel at creating so much noise that people who oppose them can't even think? Is that democracy or something more akin to Orwell's nightmare dystopia of Oceania? I also point you to the "anarchist" riots in the UK - that's what the left really wants. Smash in the windows of any wealth.

The thing is public sector unions are a bunch of filthy commies who have NO idea how wealth is generated and are very PROUD to simply suck a the public TEAT indefinitely. Well sooner or later the SHIT hits the FAN and even liberal COMMIE governors like Andrew Cuomo are bustin' up the unions.

There is NO HOPE for them. So yeah, go ahead and recall Walker + the GOP legislature and you'll only delay the inevitable by 18-24 months.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Geez Alex. I think that was the most incoherent garbled nonsense I've ever heard coming from you - and that's saying a lot.

Look, you obviously don't know very much and are just a kid. I've defended you in the past -- at least your ignorance is built upon a lack of real-world experience. But if you keep looking to these idealists who have no sense of balance to their demand for an absolute and fictionally clean sense of ORDER!, you'll keep running into the huge fuck-ups that Republicans have gotten us into ever since GWB took office.

The respective records on problem-solving are clearly different, with the Rs in the losing column. The rest of your generation understand this, so maybe you should try learning where they're coming from.

Decency is a ridiculous goal when not accompanied by any empathy or fairness.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Wisconsin workers currently pay 100 percent from their compensation package, but a portion of it is deducted from their paychecks and a portion of it goes directly to the pension plan.

Ok then: it is official. You aren't just pretending to be stupid.

You actually are a moron.

dpreston04 said...

Garage,
any really....try to find some common sense.....think....if you can....If Koch was a major backer.....which he wasn't as has already been proven, wouldn't Walker have known that the person on the other end of the line wasn't Koch? Details, I know...you wouldn't want to burdened with them, or don't you know the voices of big supporters of your existence in whatever it is you do in life? Or have you none?

Just Lurking said...

It was aimed at the level of discourse that Prof. Althouse is promoting on her blog.

Why attack her motives? There are plenty of moderated blogs on the internet. The Althouse blog is one of very few sites that actually allows all kinds of differences of opinions to stand. Unfortunately the end result of unrestrained freedom of speech is often a name-calling free-for-all, but so be it. This is what democracy sounds like.

It seems to bug the hell out of her nannying critics, who want the blog to conform to some sort of "fairness doctrine", that she dares to post her personal opinions on her personal blog , and allow anyone to post a comment in response. If you folks are really proponents of free speech and democracy, then recognize her right to say and express whatever she wants on her blog. She sure as hell recognizes yours.

Alex said...

The respective records on problem-solving are clearly different, with the Rs in the losing column.

Yeah it's clear the the conservative approach is losing when filthy Commies like Andrew Cuomo ware busting up the unions. Yeah you guys are doing our dirty work for us. How much do you enjoy men penetrating you?

Alex said...

I'm glad Althouse gives me a platform to tell Ritmo and his friends to go get penetrated by gay men.

damikesc said...

Bush had annual deficits that Obama blows away in a month. I'm not sure I would criticize Bush with the way Pelosi has piled on, what, $6T in 4 yrs.

Meade said...

"Here in Wisconsin employees pay 100% of their pension benefits. Taxpayers pay zero."

Here in Wisconsin, 100% of public employees' pay comes from taxpayers who do not have a place at collective bargaining table.

Comrade X said...

rather than cash wages or other benefits today


if the workers are paying 100% why don't they pay income taxes on that portion?

is this a loophole for every citizen to shield themselves from income taxes?

Alex said...

Andrew Cuomo Vows Offensive Against Unions as Governor - NYTimes.com

*crickets*

dpreston04 said...

Dust Bunny,
Garage knows that the only benefit the union members pay at 100% is their benefit of deferred compensation....which is an elected benefit they choose to fund from their taxpayer paid compensation....it is his way of lying by omission...or stupidity.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I'm not sure I would criticize Bush with the way Pelosi has piled on, what, $6T in 4 yrs.

Yeah, obviously you wouldn't. But that's because you are too blind to see the difference between where the economy was at before October 2008 and where Bush took us to a month before elections after 8 years of being asleep at the wheel and exercising no leadership.

Yep, that 2nd Great Depression sure isn't much of a problem in damikesc's book. Why should it be? She probably hasn't taken account of what the Republicans did to get us into the first Depression 80 years ago.

At some point, a persistent sense of ignorance and contempt for obvious historical lessons becomes indecent.

garage mahal said...

Ok then: it is official. You aren't just pretending to be stupid.

You actually are a moron.


The fringe benefits offered to State of Wisconsin employees are significant, and are a valuable part of an individual's compensation package

I go to the Wisconsin Employees Trust Funds website for facts, you go to partisan right wing hack tanks for facts. Who is the moron again? That would be you. Thanks for the laugh though.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I'm sure that Andrew Cuomo will do whatever he needs to do vis a vis unions in New York in a way that is much less offensive and crude than what that Kochwhore Scott Walker did.

Meade said...

100% of Wisconsin public employees' wages, salaries, and benefits are provided by taxpayers. 3.8% of Wisconsin taxpayers are public employees.

James said...

Did DBQ use "Cadillac"? I can't find it.

I called it "cadillac" and I'm in a position to know. And many school districts have other exceptional benefits that aren't discussed much:
Here are the links to the Madison and Green Bay Teacher Emeritus programs

http://www.madisonteachers.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/M-of-Us-2009-11-CBA.pdf

http://www.gbea.org/node/129

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Wow Meade. Did you just figure that out?

No one's bitching about getting them to self-contribute to their pensions.

If you want to defeat the enemy, it might help to know where he actually stands on something.

Other than that, looking forward to seeing what comes out of your non-stealth interview.

Trooper York said...

Andrew Cuomo will do what is best for Andrew Cuomo. WHich will be going after the public unions because that's where the money is going in NY state and he has no choice. It will be interesting the mud that will be thrown his way because there is a lot of mud there to throw. Just sayn.

kate said...

damikesc - Marty Beil, head of AFSCME, and John Matthews, head of MTI are both on the record for accepting the compensatipn concessions.

and why have they been pushing contracts thru sympathetic districts with none of the requirements as quickly as possible?

Actually, the Madison School Board just did, with concessions from MTI. My guess is that both sides were able to meet their goals while being able to include valued employees in the decions making process, instead of losing all control to the state.

Alex said...

I'm sure that Andrew Cuomo will do whatever he needs to do vis a vis unions in New York in a way that is much less offensive and crude than what that Kochwhore Scott Walker did.

ROFL.

Alex said...

“We’ve seen the same play run for 10 years,” Mr. Cuomo said. “The governor announces the budget, unions come together, put $10 million in a bank account, run television ads against the governor. The governor’s popularity drops; the governor’s knees weaken; the governor falls to one knee, collapses, makes a deal.”

Makes the unions look like filthy bastards to me!

Alex said...

Ritmo - tell me specific instances of Walker being "offensive and crude" about WI unions. Cite.

Alex said...

Trooper - my point is the left prefers to be assfucked by their own rather then a GOPer. It's apparently an aesthetic thing.

Alex said...

Unions were noble once, when they were fighting for the right of a poor man to feed his family.

Now unions fight for the upper middle class, for more lavish perks. And in the case of public unions, on the backs of taxpayers who usually make far less.

I have no problem with unions, circa 1910.

I have a huge problem with unions, circa 2010.


Well said.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Yes, DBQ, I do know and I know that it will be the same after the budget repair bill goes through - I'll be taking home less to make up the difference. I'm not getting your point.

No, you do not know how much the health insurance premiums are or you would say so. OR...you do know and you don't want the rest of the people to be aware of how much it actually is.


2010 figures "The Milwaukee Public Schools district spends as much as $26,846 a year to provide family coverage for a teacher. The City of Milwaukee spends a bit less than $21,000, and Milwaukee County spends $17,800 to $19,400. The state's cost is slightly less than $20,000 a year for employees in the Milwaukee area."

Statewide and average of approximately $1400 to $1500 a month for health insurance!!!

And contrary to your statement, the insurance premiums may not be the same after the bill goes through because the local Districts will now have the option to shop around for health insurance and get a better deal with similar coverage instead of being chained to the very expensive union owned and run program.

You must be a teacher.

So, if your take home pay is a little less because you have to actually contribute towards your OWN retirement and your OWN health insurance instead of having the taxpayers foot the bill....well excuse me.....let me get out my teeny tiny violin and play My Heart Cries for You.

Boo freaking hoo.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Ritmo - tell me specific instances of Walker being "offensive and crude" about WI unions. Cite.

Ummm, I dunno. Demanding more of a contribution from people at the bottom end than from those at the top.

Masking a political agenda to break the Democratic party in talk of a need for budgetary austerity.

You know, the usual indecent Republican bullshit.

Lincolntf said...

There should be no "compromise" outside of the Constitutional process that the Dems are trying to scuttle. If WI Dems/Union members want to behave like Third World sub-literates, storming buildings whenever they lose a vote, they shouldn't be rewarded for it.

Alex said...

and the loonies come undone:

Mr. Cuomo is not a real democrat when he wants to raise millions of dollars to oppose labor unions. For once he should focus on the real culprits and criminals of today. All large banks and corporations, too big too fail, too bog to be punishment, who buy up Congress and governors and local government to grab total power like in a totalitarian state. Who are direct and indirect guilty of murder, but know they will get away with it as they have also bought the judicial system. But of course Mr Cuomo does not want to go there, as he gets most of the millions of dollars he is seeking from these criminals.

No doubt Ritmo/Chris/AL/garage/shiloh are in full agreement. I can already see the nodding heads.

Alex said...

You know, the usual indecent Republican bullshit.

ah, so being for conservative principles is by definition "indecent". Maybe it's a mental illness, no? Maybe all conservatives should be rounded up and put in concentration camps to make America more decent, no?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

"I have no problem with unions, circa 1910.

I have a huge problem with unions, circa 2010."

Well said.


Well said by someone who resents the extraordinary rise in living standards we've seen over the last 100 years. Yes, for someone that blind, that's incredibly well said.

Alex said...

If WI Dems/Union members want to behave like Third World sub-literates, storming buildings whenever they lose a vote, they shouldn't be rewarded for it.

You have to realize that Ritmo now thinks you're an indecent, crude shitbag for calling them sub-literates.

Alex said...

Well said by someone who resents the extraordinary rise in living standards we've seen over the last 100 years.

Prove to me the causal chain between unions and the increase in standard of living for ALL these 100 years. Tell me which role the unions played in the creation and development of the hi-tech sector(from which I earn my living).

Meade said...

It was aimed at the level of discourse that Prof. Althouse is promoting on her blog.

Everyone (in Madison and Milwaukee) said, loud enough for the others to hear: "Look at the important messages on the protesters' signs. They're splendid!"
      "What a marvellous parade and demonstration!"
      "And the chants! The chants and the wonderful rhythmic drumming - I have never heard anything quite so democratic in all my life!" They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to really hear anything very melodic or democratic, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved just as the fourteen scoundrels had predicted they would.
      A lady, however, who had no important job (besides being a blogger and maybe one or two other things) and could only see things as her eyes showed them to her, went up to the parade.
      "The self-important self-interested protesters are silly," she said.
      "Fool!" her commenters, Chris and Ritmo, scolded, metaphorically running after her. "Don't talk nonsense!" They tried to dominate the comment thread and continued to scold. But the lady's remark, which had been understood by the readers of her blog, was repeated over and over again until everyone began to whisper:
      "The lady is right! The self-important self-interested protesters ARE silly! It's true!"
      The protesters, along with Chris and Ritmo, realized that the blog readers were right but could not admit to that. They thought it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who didn't agree with their demands and complaints was either stupid or incompetent. And they walked stiffly in their non-permitted parade, while commenters Chris and Ritmo and, joining them, garage, argued on for their self-imagined righteousness and puffed up moral superiority.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Continue on with your kiddy games and childish hyperbole on your own, Alex. I'm going to make the most of one of those things not yet affected by Republican self-induced crises: A sunny day.

Of course, with time I'm sure we'll see them find a way to fuck that up, too. And then they'll blame Democrats. That's how those Koch-heads roll. Winning. Bi-winning, in fact.

Alex said...

The increase in standard of living the last 100 years seems to have 99% to do with technological inventions, curing of diseases(polio, TB) and just a little bit to do with 40-hour work week and health benefits. Let's face it, who needs health benefits to 1910 level health care? No vacuum cleaner, dishwasher, full indoor plumbing and electricity, highways, computers, iPads. Oh no single filthy union had ANYTHING to do with the creation of Apple Computer.

Alex said...

Ritmo - you're unhinged if you think the world revolves around the need to save everyone from the evil Republicans. You're just a typical partisan hack who can't see a larger world.

damikesc said...

So, garage goes to the group that says there is no problem.

Don't worry, gm. Ken Lay, to his death, thought nothing was wrong at Enron either.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

If you want to argue that the possession of facts and reasonable arguments make someone feel superior to you, you can do that, Meade.

I'm not sure that Hans Christian Anderson would agree, but feel free to use him at your whimsy as you see fit.

Basic empathy as a form of "puffed-up moral superiority". That's rich. Just come right out and say that you don't give a shit about anyone who can't benefit you personally -- it would be more honest.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Oh no single filthy union had ANYTHING to do with the creation of Apple Computer.

And neither did a big, huge corporation or its tax-break seeking owner.

What's your point? Steve Jobs was a hippie. Wealth follows good ideas (and bad ones). It doesn't create them.

shiloh said...

Alex said...

Then you have the Chris/Ritmo types

3/27/11 1:58 PM

Alex said...

I'm glad Althouse gives me a platform to tell Ritmo and his friends yada yada yada

3/27/11

Alex said...

Ritmo - tell me

3/27/11

Alex said...

No doubt Ritmo/Chris/AL/garage/shiloh

3/27/11

Alex said...

You have to realize that Ritmo

3/27/11

Alex said...

Ritmo - you're ...

3/27/11 2:32 PM
~~~~~


Alex is one of AA's more confused pups as he is indeed done w/C4 lol as "clueless" does not seem adequate when describing his meandering ...

and I won't give them one more word. Finito. Over. QED!

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I see that Meade's ad hoc definition of "democracy" is wildly at odds with Don Rumsfeld's definition of "freedom".

I also like the idea that there are no self-righteous posts ever uploaded on this blog.

garage mahal said...

What I don't get is why Walker and Fitzgerald just don't revote again? Maybe Meade could run down one of the Fitzgeralds and ask them that.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Meade sees an ability to actually respond to criticisms of you as a form of attempted "domination".

That would explain a lot.

damikesc said...

Let's see...unemployment is terrible, home prices are crashing, new home starts are abysmal, gas prices are up 67% since Obama became President, food prices are increasing heavily...yes, I'm glad we are in the midst of the Obama recovery.

If Obama stopped a Depression...why are things markedly worse NOW than before he came into office?

Nice to see Dems didn't learn a thing about how they prolonged the Great Depression.

And I wonder where the idea that I'm a woman came into your head.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Sorry damikesc. I'd like to respond to you and show you the respect that your earnest criticisms demand, but Meade informs me that to do so would be a form of "domination".

I will now yield to the submissive posture he kindly asks of me.

Alex said...

Wisconsin Union law published, unions outraged

Marty Beil, executive director of the state's largest public employee union, said he didn't think the action meant the law was going to take effect.

"The problem is they're (Republicans) the dictator here so we have to go into a court of law and reaffirm it," he said. "This is Scott Fitzgerald and Scott Walker's gulag here. It's craziness. These guys are off the wall. They're drunk with some kind of power or misconception of reality."

Phil Neuenfeldt, president of the Wisconsin State AFL-CIO, called the action an "illegal backdoor maneuver."

"This is a dark day for Wisconsin and a travesty to our democracy," he said.


Hey dumbshit - it's called DEMOCRACY. Yeah WE won.

shiloh said...

Hey dumbshit - it's called DEMOCRACY. Yeah WE won.

Alex, thanx for sharing ...

Alex said...

Wisconsing judge declines to hold hearing on LRB posting of union law

"Whatever the significance of it may be, the LRB acted today by putting the bill on its website," O'Brien wrote. "That bell cannot be 'unrung'. Ordering that the bill be taken off the website, as I believe Attorney Ozanne would like to request, would have no legal significance. Therefore I am declining to hold a hearing in this matter. Judge Sumi already has a hearing scheduled for early next week, and can take whatever actions are necessary at that time."

Brilliant. I'm glad we've got common-sense judges still.

Alex said...

I will now yield to the submissive posture he kindly asks of me.

That's what you buttboys do by default.

Alex said...

this gem from the fever swamps:

wish2bfree 3 minutes ago (3:50 PM)
75 FansFollow
I am eternally grateful that I'm not related to Walker. Can you imagine the humiliatio­n his children must feel in public because of him?


Yes now we can thank liberal scumbags for going after Walker's children. Once again I have to ask the immortal question to liberals - DO YOU HAVE NO DECENCY?

traditionalguy said...

Shame and guilt go together. These puritan church ladies of the left want to convict everyone who thinks for themselves of the guilt of high heresy, and then have them burned at the stake. A good sign to oppose them would be "Go get a life".

David53 said...

@ garage

I don't know exactly how other states run their plans, or how other unions run their plans, but I know how it's done here.

For comparison here's how it works in (right to work state)Texas.

Average salary after working 10 years in Judson ISD (suburb of San Antonio) 48,700
minus ave. family health care plan 8,000
minus mandatory retirement contribution 3,000
before tax take home 37,700

Average Madison teacher salary with paid health care and retirement package 52,000

Did I mention Texas teachers do not pay social security and aren't eligible for monthly SS payments? Do Madison teachers get social security also? Just curious.

That's how it works in some other states.

Of course if you are "all about the children" money doesn't matter anyway, right?

Lincolntf said...

The "first you will blow me"-style of government is apparently reserved exclusively for Barack "Repubs can get in the backseat" Obama.

damikesc said...

Kate, I asked for names of people with authority to make those offers. You have yet to do that.

As a hint...there is no individual voice or two for all of the public unions in WI. Those two can do that for THEIR tiny union councils only.

And, for our amusement, spell out exactly what Walker is ending.

BTW, admitting Madison rushed the contract thru disproved your thesis. Thanks.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

That's what you buttboys do by default.

Careful, Alex.

If Meade considers "teabagger" to be a homophobic term, merely because it describes a practice that either heterosexuals or homosexuals could engage in, then I would predict he wouldn't be too happy with your description of gays as "buttboys" and ascribing to them a submissive posture.

But you have shown me how dishonorable you really are by piling on, despite the times I've come to your defense. I guess that, in this regard, the other commenters were right to call you out as a douchebag.

Carry on. I will do no more to disrespect Meade's position or his non-self righteous blog any further.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Is the opposite of "self-righteous" "self-unrighteous"?

Just wondering. I thought it was a funny and non-confrontational way to use language to realize something.

This musing, humble way of coming to certain realizations certainly is interesting, in its own way.

wyo sis said...

Meade
It's amazing! The quality of the liberal comments here about the same as it is on Town Hall.
4 Better could fit right in there. Proof positive you're a new media journalist. The quality of the dissent is the true measure.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I applaud your demeaning of me and will even seek to emulate your reluctance to use verbs in my posts, wyo sis! You have truly shown me the way!

BJM said...

Is it just me or does the bad smell protester look like Ruhlman?

m stone said...

Kudos to Meade for a sensible response to the wage and benefit payers. I see Garage couldn't handle that one.

And I thought he was just a dashing bon vivant.

vbspurs said...

Is it in carrying a 3D representation of the governor's bare ass

Ugh, there's 3D in our movie theatres, and soon, 3D in our televisions. Now we have 3D butts flying at us in the streets.

I suppose we should be grateful the latest trend isn't Smell-o-Vision.

Voltimand said...

All this concentration on Gov. Walker, who is after all in the hire of the citizens of Wisconsin, who pay his salary to executive things properly, is misplaced. Citizens of Wisconsin pay the salary of public employees--among which Walker is one--and as in all employee/employer relations, the employer calls the tune. What is there about this situation that public union people don't understand? They want to make things difficult for the people tho hire them and pay them? Are they stupid?

Alex said...

All this concentration on Gov. Walker, who is after all in the hire of the citizens of Wisconsin, who pay his salary to executive things properly, is misplaced. Citizens of Wisconsin pay the salary of public employees--among which Walker is one--and as in all employee/employer relations, the employer calls the tune. What is there about this situation that public union people don't understand? They want to make things difficult for the people tho hire them and pay them? Are they stupid?

If they had their way, you and I would be put into death camps.

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