Says UW polisci prof Barry Burden, quoted in a Christian Science Monitor article inquiring into whether law enforcement at the Capitol here in Madison, Wisconsin permitted or facilitated a descent into mob rule. This is a very serious question whether it's in the political interests of the Republicans to ask it or not! Obviously, the Democrats don't want to ask the question. Indeed, some Democrats are implicated in the chaos.
We, the people, should demand to know what happened, how it was that thousands of protesters were able to occupy the state Capitol building day and night for weeks and, especially, to storm and retake the building after police had cleared them out pursuant to a court order. It's not that the police did nothing, but they had some kind of policy, and it was quite accommodating to the protesters.
The Christian Science Monitor says:
The protests were peaceful, on the whole – with only 18 arrests during more than three weeks of steady protests in Madison – but critics question whether Dane County Sheriff Dave Mahoney, too, was taking sides.Anyone can look at the pictures and video and see crimes being committed. The low number of arrests is evidence that the police chose not to enforce the law. Meade, outnumbered in the center of an angry mob, was physically assaulted by a very large man, and all the while a police officer looked on and did nothing. Should Meade have said "Arrest this man!" — under those circumstances? Think about it! The police seemed to be on the other side, and he was surrounded by people who'd decided he was a "Walker plant." How, exactly, was he supposed to extricate himself from the situation if the police didn't respond to his accusation? What do you do when you can't count on the police? You're on your own.
The CSM article is also about whether the federal government can come to the rescue under the Guarantee Clause of the Constitution. Article IV, § 4. You mean, when the state can no longer fend off domestic unrest, the feds have a duty to help us? Pardon me if I laugh. The Obama administration might send in forces to do what the local police here won't do?
Sorry. I'm a constitutional law professor, and I'm especially interested in all the federalism stuff, but I live in the real world, here in Madison, Wisconsin. I want real police, enforcing the law, equally and with a high sense of duty — not self-interested union enthusiasm.
Now, what we really want to know is: Who handcuffed the Capitol doorknobs from the inside on the night the mob retook the building?
Meade has been trying to get an authoritative interview from the police. He was over at the Capitol on March 11th and got as far as a police escort into the office of Wisconsin Capitol Police Chief Charles Tubbs. Tubbs was there, but talking on the phone. He shunted Meade to a secretary, to take Meade's name and number. A phone call was promised. We're still waiting for the phone call.I want to know more about Tubbs. The Wisconsin State Journal — which caters to the political tastes of Madisonians — just adores the man:
Capitol Police Chief Charles Tubbs has earned himself a new nickname.Don't hold your breath waiting for investigation from the "mainstream" press here in Madison! (Don't you just love how the linked article has, instead of a picture of Tubbs, a picture of the young reporters posing cutely back to back?) Hey, children, there were Hitler signs all over. Hitler, Stalin, swastikas — the nastiest stuff you can imagine. And if there were a Tea Party rally with 1% of the nasty signs we saw and photographed here, those reporters and the liberals they represent would get all righteous about the terrible violence infecting the Tea Party.
From here on out, we're just going to start calling him the "Protester Whisperer."...
Most people would agree the crowds around the Capitol the past four weeks have been some of the nicest angry protesters ever to assemble.
There has been the occasional Hitler sign (knuckleheads), and some Republicans have received death threats. But for the most part, the crowds at the Capitol acquitted themselves nicely.
And what's a little death threat to "some Republicans"? It was a death threat to all the Republican Senators and their families, and it said:
So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records. We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave it there.... So we have also built several bombs that we have placed in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent. This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't tell you all of them because that's just no fun.Full text here. The hopelessly biased State Journal reporters — Clay Barbour and Mary Spicuzza — committed to their "crowds... acquitted themselves nicely" theme go on to trash Fox News for making things look "a lot scarier." They then conclude with a cloying cutesiness you have to live in Madison to fathom:
Some of us in the Capitol press corps were shocked when the Wisconsin 14 fled to Illinois. But after listening to hours upon hours of bickering, accusations and all-out shouting matches at the Capitol, we are considering fleeing to Rockford, Ill., too. Beers at the Tilted Kilt and some CoCo Key Water Resort water slides sound pretty good right now. We get dibs on Sen. Chris Larson's air mattress if he's finally done with it.Yeah, please go, why don't you? You are useless reporters. But you won't lose your jobs for this abject lack of interest in investigating anything. You're there at the Wisconsin State Journal to dish out ice cream news for liberals in Madison's protest playground, where no one can possibly get hurt, and the policeman is your friend.
UPDATE: Tubbs called Meade at 2:15 this afternoon (Saturday) to say they are looking into the handcuffs matter.
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120 comments:
You are so good you can almost see this biased BS from your house. How the heck do you turn off your keen observation senses so you can comfortably live there without going nuts like the guy in Network?
Amen. The WI State Journal, at one time supposedly a counterbalance to the communist The Capital Times (at least when TCT had a real paper), showed its true colors this last month.
@Gulf Oh, yeah. Outsiders need to know, there is a "second* supposedly mainstream newspaper here in Madison, the Cap Times, and *it's* the one on the left.
I will be interested as the recall elections unfold to see at what level of intensity the Republicans will use paid media to make the case that free media is ignoring. It always comes to this at election time anyway.
My hunch is that the unions will get millions of dollars from around the country to run hit pieces and it will go largely unnoticed.
The other side will of course be hounded constantly for taking contributions from out of state heavyweights.
Nonetheless, I do look forward to seeing the real story of union thuggery and intimidation told honestly.
Althouse said...I live in the real world, here in Madison, Wisconsin.
That flatly contradicts the famous observation of Republican governor Lee Sherman Dreyfus. I do not believe that times have changed that much.
wv = press
Heh
A new term that will soon apply to Madison drivers, "Driving While Republican". Better scrape off those McCain/Palin and Tea Party bumper stickers if you value your insurance rates.
With the questions regarding the police, why are the police unions using "Mob" tactics to bully business owners to fall in line with their union demands?
http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/117764004.html?blog=y#commentbox
And union groups pulling stunts like this?
http://talkingunion.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/emergency-labor-meeting-in-cleveland/
That flatly contradicts the famous observation of Republican governor Lee Sherman Dreyfus. I do not believe that times have changed that much.
My family and I have been referring to his famous quote about this city quite often over the past few weeks, mostly in an attempt to maintain our sanity.
Third Coast - I never wear my conservatism on my car. Liberals are vindictive bastards. Here in Denver, cars with conservative stickers have been vadalized.
see. my proposal for a no-fly zone over madison is looking better and better.
The chief of police and the sheriff also live in the "real" world within the 30 square miles. They report to the mayor and city council, not the governor.
Fuck the question of whether police feel they're adequately compensated! They should do what they're not paid enough to do anyway!!!
Reality from inside Althouse's mind.
I guess the right-wing anti-civil service shit sort of falls apart once you aim your cannons on the police and firefighters, etc.
Nice little pyrrhic victory you're fomenting here.
The Governor does not control the Madison police. The Governor does control the Capitol police. Why weren't they securing the building?
Not enough of them. An color guard can't hold off an army.
principle -noun
1. what your side hopes will guide the other side, so yours can win.
I don't understand why they are using local police for this. Hire private security guards and they will be accountable. I am a federal employee working in a federal building in DC - all of the security is private. Either do the job or get out.
I have to disagree with the UW prof about Republicans asking whose side the cops were on. One of the faults of the RINOs is that they never challenge the other side; they are so worried about being loved that they never take a stand. Sounds like WI Republicans need to have just begun to fight.
PS Whatever the cops' side was, they did one good thing after the vote. According to Professor Jacobson, cops commandeered a bus to get the Republican Senators away from the Capitol as protestors chased it down the road.
This is what lynch mobs look like. Interesting how the Lefties love to invoke the image, but look who practices it.
PPS Trickling Down His Leg, as usual, doesn't want to admit that anything pyrrhic is on his side. All this makes the Lefties and union slugs look like the howling mob they are.
@Ritmo:
I guess the right-wing anti-civil service shit sort of falls apart once you aim your cannons on the police and firefighters, etc.
So this is the new progressivism, is it? Cops should only protect those who don't criticize them. Nice.
Most people don't think Americans should spend their lives licking jackboots, but you evidently disagree, when you think you can scoer some points for Team Blue anyway.
There are some who think it dith profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul. But for Madison, Ritmo?
Writ Small writes large...an astute observation appropriate for all seasons...unfortunately the GOP (aka "the stupid party") all too often abides by one noun too many..
Why do you criticize the police for not having sufficient scruples/principles to temper their own self-interest, Gabriel Hanna, when the whores at FNC and the RNC have none of their own?
The police just seem to have caught on to the prevailing philosophy on the right, that self-interest trumps everything else and that money is the sole guiding principle. Why do you berate them for understanding the implications imparted to them by the right wing and its iron-fisted rule, Mr. Hanna?
Your side has taught them well. No sense in complaining that someone has appropriated your own values now, is there? Don't want to besmirch those pro-education credentials now, would we?
Typically short-sighted view, Ritmo. You have to remember that police may not always be on your side. What then?
Idly wondering if the local or national press have commented on the apparent overwhelmingly white composition of the crowds as often as they during the various tea party protests last summer.
What then? I listen to their concerns related to their own interests, like we should when it comes to every worker. That's what's then.
Sorry if respecting another person's needs gets in the way of your unscrupulous/amoral political worldview.
I have to say Prof. Althouse, that you've written a truly accurate and "Spot On" essay here; that the mobs were NOT peaceful nor civilized and that their conduct was by and large precisely as you and Meade presented it, is important for people to understand.
Gee, maybe you should send this essay to Fox News - and NO I'm not joking. Lord knows that ABC, CBS, MSNBC and CNN won't touch your story; hell they wouldn't get within 100 feet of it.
Has there been discussion on the union membership of the newspapers?
What causes us to believe a union member can write objectively about protesting for collective bargaining privileges?
I want real police, enforcing the law, equally and with a high sense of duty — not self-interested union enthusiasm.
you don't have real police officers, you have a police union. and the mere possibility of politicized police is why police unions should be illegal, never mind the actuality.
Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
Why do you criticize the police for not having sufficient scruples/principles to temper their own self-interest, Gabriel Hanna, when the whores at FNC and the RNC have none of their own?
KOS and Soros are going to be outraged.
Trickling Down His Leg just told gave the world the perfect argument against public sector unions.
Vicki Hearne
"Courage and goodness are not exactly private, but they are often secrets, not that acts of courage I know about would be any surprise to the familiars of the brave...[I]t is as though the kind of public space in which knowledge of individual virtue is possible cannot be larger or more abstract than the kind of public space [her dog] Bandit can guard, and this is a book so is not the kind of public space Bandit can guard. Or because a book, a nonfiction book, is a place where the soul cannot select her own society.
"The people who were brave were less confused than most. And I have to tell you that the woman who said to be at one point, about an earlier battle in these wars, 'Be careful. People who are kind to animals are not very nice,' was not a dummy, knew some things..."
Bandit p.275
They'll never mention the overwhelming whiteness of the Madison mobsters. It doesn't fit the meme. Kinda like they'll never investigate why, despite being grossly overfunded, WI teachers consistently fall below national averages in the education of every demographic group. Their inability, or refusal, to educate minorities should be promptly investigated.
Welcome to the conservative side, Professor!
You will live happier, longer, and far less confused now
Arguments that trickle down edutcher (et al)'s legs have a way of running amok of reality.
Any army or force that you don't pay enough bread to (or make threats of not paying enough bread to) will abandon you. It's a basic rule of history and politics, and you silly mofo's ignore it at your own peril. No unionization necessary to accede to this truism. The brotherly bands of a hungry stomach are stronger among soldiers and policemen than those brought about by any so-called union.
You goofy assbuckets are shooting yourselves in your own feet and I will laugh as the proverbial manure hits the fan.
You're angry - I like you when you're angry. Like Chase said:
Welcome to the dark side.
Yes, Crack has a descriptive history when it comes to his love of angry women.
Why not just call it a love of irrationality, Crack? That would be the honest thing for you to do.
What then? I listen to their concerns related to their own interests, like we should when it comes to every worker. That's what's then.
Ah...so you just have to dance to the cop's tune, otherwise don't expect him to enforce the law. What could possibly go wrong, eh?
Is the premise then that underpaid cops are going to run amok?
Does hygiene guy really think the left is descending to 3rd world standards in selectively enforcing the law, and that it's a good thing? Are you kidding me?
We either bribe the cops with even more unrealistic retirement and health benefits than the new bill allows, or they will turn on the right and look the other way at the left?
Is a pro anarchy position the new hangout for the left?
Listening to and respecting someone's concerns so as to fairly bargain with them only amounts to slavishly acquiescing to them in your boot-licking, domination-submission tinted, inherited from a medieval fiefdom worldview, Maguro.
@Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene
Sir,
From your picture, you look like a sane man but write like a crazy man. Ann Althouse and her husband write the unvanished truth, but you color your words and her words to fit your nutty views.
If you think the police are siding with the demonstrators now, just open an investigation into their misconduct during these activities.....Most of the demonstrators seem like decent enough people. But in any left wing crowd, there's bound to be some who would dearly love to generate a few pictures of police abusing demonstrators. The fact that there are none, probably miffs them as much as you.
@Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene
Sir,
From your picture, you look like a sane man but write like a crazy man. Ann Althouse and her husband write the unvanished truth, but you color your words and her words to fit your nutty views.
The brotherly bands of a hungry stomach are stronger among soldiers and policemen than those brought about by any so-called union.
According to Ritmo, it's either unionize, or starve.
Nuance!
@Ritmo:
No unionization necessary to accede to this truism. The brotherly bands of a hungry stomach are stronger among soldiers and policemen than those brought about by any so-called union.
Progressives USED to thing that Pretorian guards and police states were bad things that progressive should oppose, that institutions should exist to prevent those things from happening. Now they say, get on the winning side, the judgement of history has been made.
Ritmo descends to power-worship before our eyes.
I would never think of questioning the sanctified provenance of the "unvanished (sic) truth" that a much higher - perhaps divine - being than I put into your mind, Gene.
Sane polls of course are a different matter.
Union busting as a fairer and supposedly apolitical means of budget cutting is a move with very, very limited power. But keep banging on that drum. I'm happy to see how far it gets you.
Nice (if stupid, for you) tu quoque that you descend into using, Gabriel.
I never said that it was important which party was in power while supporting the feeding of the troops, just that it happens and that both sides respect it.
Sorry if you don't like the implications of supporting a side that doesn't. That's your problem, though.
For someone who would defend the agenda of a party that supports mercenaries abroad, and apparently now at home, you sure have a creative and expansive definition of "Pretorian guard", Gabriel.
Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
Arguments that trickle down edutcher (et al)'s legs have a way of running amok of reality.
Before he waxes literary, Trickling Down His Leg needs to look at a dictionary, then he'd be better off waxing his legs. Clearly, the definition of running amok is another thing which eludes him.
Any army or force that you don't pay enough bread to (or make threats of not paying enough bread to) will abandon you. It's a basic rule of history and politics, and you silly mofo's ignore it at your own peril. No unionization necessary to accede to this truism. The brotherly bands of a hungry stomach are stronger among soldiers and policemen than those brought about by any so-called union.
Like all good little Commies, Trickling Down His Leg thinks the only things that motivate people are bribery and terror. Loyalty and a sense of duty, he's never heard of. This is what you lose with a police and fire union.
From my perch in the Washington, DC, metropolitan area the police tactics looked vaguely familiar -- the actions of your police in Madison resembled the tactics used in Washington to defuse the various protest mobs that show up from time to time.
Now if Madison really were the real world the police officials would right now be engaged in after action analysis to determine where they did well (getting the Republican lawmakers away in the commandeered bus, for instance) and where they fell down and their tactics could be improved. And, obviously, from this distance I don't know that they aren't doing so even as we use the Professor's blog to debate and discuss their tactics -- though it appears that your Mr. Tubbs may instead be risking a painful dislocated shoulder patting himself on the back.
If the police really did handcuff certain doors shut, that's an area for improvement. That they permitted a judge's order to be defied suggests room for improvement. That the actions of the police allowed them to appear -- to left and right alike! -- as being biased towards the protesters definitely demonstrates that there is room for improvement.
"The police just seem to have caught on to the prevailing philosophy on the right, that self-interest trumps everything else and that money is the sole guiding principle. Why do you berate them for understanding the implications imparted to them by the right wing and its iron-fisted rule, Mr. Hanna?"
I can't wait until the military catches on to the prevailing philosophy of the left, that they're a bunch of Nazi baby killers. Surely you won't have cause to bitch and whine when that happens?
Loyalty and duty only trump the nutritional needs of life in your sado-masochistic understanding of life and society, edutcher.
And as for the cute "little Commies" label, why stop there? Maybe if you think hard enough, you can find a way to call me "Hitler"! That would be an "epic" move for a man as wise in the ways of the world as you, ed.
A little more convoluted than I expected, Crimso, but you're almost there. I'm happy to say that Rube Goldberg couldn't have put together a stranger argument than that one.
@Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene
I meant to write what I wrote and spelled the word "unvanished' on purpose. HeH! You now say union busting is what happened!!! Nope, the union now gets to do its own job of collecting dues. If that is union busting so be it!!
"the Wisconsin State Journal to dish out ice cream news for liberals in Madison's protest playground, where no one can possibly get hurt, and the policeman is your friend."
Stellar writing, Althouse.
Police renounce their oath when they choose sides. Even FDR knew that politicization of government employees would be a disaster.
The left is not just un-American, they are anti-American.
Why the obsession with collecting dues? I couldn't care less if unions are barred from extracting a mandatory fee from their members without giving them the option of opting out. It's their right to collectively bargain that has been attacked, as I understand it, and that is the biggest problem.
I wouldn't even have a problem with certain restrictions on collectively bargaining on behalf of a union representing largely public sector employees, provided it was balanced. But this line you're all walking on becomes finer and finer every day, and yet you think you have the moral, intellectual and political support to bang away at it with a sledgehammer. I don't think so.
"Loyalty and duty only trump the nutritional needs of life..."
I'm suspecting written by someone who has experienced neither.
WV = gamies, that some do play.
Wow--you folks in Madison are really fucked up!
You know, I'm not sure. But I think in the beginning the police were "local." I remember the Black police chief coming in and saying he was supportive to the protesters.
Somewhere it seems the State police are now inside. (Different paychecks. Can't imagine the local police are happy, if there was a change.)
While it seems the megaphone that belongs to the media is set to LIE. Governor Walker has gone on record, also, as saying "everyone in a democracy has a right to be heard."
How anyone arrives at the Rotunda, I have no idea. So, I'll venture a guess that the Rotunda is some sort of destination hub for transit buses. Otherwise, how do people get to the building?
How come no one is complaining that their parked cars have been towed?
By the way, even in Meade's pictures, the State police look very professional.
Meanwhile, will the democratic office holder, who let people in through their window, get in trouble? /s
Ritmo; your bias is showing. You say Fox and the RNC are unscrupulous. Do you believe the DNC and MSNBC are less so? Cause I don't. There are no white hats vs. black hats in the real world, except to the simple-minded.
Excusing cops for shirking their duties because conservatives are the boogie man is a rather silly argument.
Pogo finds room to praise FDR while still maintaining his obligatory accusation of the next picayune little thing that should somehow be denounced as "anti-American/un-American". That's astonishing, folks.
Or perhaps it's also a sign of progress, in a sense.
What do you do when you can't count on the police?
When seconds count, the police are only one political party away.
Mary Spicuzza - that photo shows why she's a print reporter.
Ouch....
Welcome to the conservative side, Professor!
Reminds me of Irving Kristol's line about liberals who've been "mugged by reality."
Money serves a lot of purposes, JL. I somehow adhere to the subversive belief that defending its acquisition for the purpose of sustaining the basic nutritional and residential needs of life is a more scrupulous and principled position than defending its acquisition for the purpose of enriching one's already considerable political power.
Of course, I fully expect to incur the full-throated wrath of a tirade against communism and every other device of the anti-Christ for this horrible and shocking belief of mine.
Somewhere along the way, you guys thought that confusing "needs" with "wants" and "desires" would be a smashingly brilliant idea. But this doesn't seem to be the case, however. Funny.
This what fascism looks like: a police force that favors its own political ends over its oath to serve and protect.
And its another reason why the second amendment is so necessary.
@Ritmo:
Loyalty and duty only trump the nutritional needs of life in your sado-masochistic understanding of life and society, edutcher.
Hey, Ritmo. Tell that to the privileged guests of the Hanoi Hilton. Or Cabanatuan. Or Camp O'Donnell.
Proof that duty, honor and country can trump the nutritional needs of life.
Trickling Down His Leg invokes sado-masochism as if he knows what it means. Like his idol Chrissy, it just makes a tingle run down his leg.
PS I would use a Hitler analogy on Trickling Down His Leg because Der Fuhrer understood the value of loyalty and expected it. The Commies believe everyone is as intellectually, psychologically, and morally bankrupt as themselves and always go for intimidation. A distinction a little reading of history imparts. Too bad Trickling Down His Leg never got past the Classics Illustrated version.
Ritmo, you are so damned vain!
The vanity compels you to produce starchy authoritarian statements from on high.
And you just become a gibbering fool.
Stop trying to impress us with your non-existent authority. If you have something to say, which appears doubtful, say it as simply as possible.
You're making a fool out of yourself.
I await your usual foul, vicous tirade in response.
Pogo:
You threaten those famous "2nd amendment remedies" that Sharon Angle told us about because policemen don't prioritize arbitrary edicts above their own empty stomachs.
If I ever got the need to feel that melodramatic I would probably just enjoy a viewing of the movie "Red Dawn". Do you lack so much purpose in your life that you must find this sort of drama in so many places? Have you tried looking under your sofa cushions for items that fell there long ago but were since confiscated by an omnipresent tyranny?
Have you not been hugged, lately?
Hey, Ritmo. Tell that to the privileged guests of the Hanoi Hilton. Or Cabanatuan. Or Camp O'Donnell.
Ah. SO that's what Scott Walker is planning on turning his state into!
Thanks for the heads-up, Mojo.
Money serves a lot of purposes, JL. I somehow adhere to the subversive belief that defending its acquisition for the purpose of sustaining the basic nutritional and residential needs of life is a more scrupulous and principled position than defending its acquisition for the purpose of enriching one's already considerable political power.
And which party is the one out to enrich it's political power? Because I would say both, no?
But I'm curious- if you do think Republicans are the bad guys- and seemingly you do- then does it follow that you believe anarchy is excusable when they are in control? Because anarchy is what you get when cops decide which laws they will or will not follow.
It is nice to see that Ann is getting it. Eventually all the public employee unions will be gone in all non lefty states. Mainly because the public can't afford it but also because Dems are just inherently corrupt. The Dems use the unions to corrupt state provided services so that they are biased for Dems and against Republicans. Obviously Republicans cannot permit this.
Now that the Tea Party has invigorated the Republican party to do the Right thing, we'll get these abuses of power by the Dems rolled back. It is going to take time but the country will be much better, less corrupt, and more constitutional. The Dems' anger and fear let us know that we are on the Right track.
We have the Constitution to guide us and the Federalist Papers to explain the Constitution. BTW, it is thrilling to read the Federalist Papers, to get a chance to roam around in the minds of these brilliant men who created our republic.
Good old Ratmo, always dependable--off topic, off meds, and boring.
C4BTH said (under his prior avatar):
"...the stupidest threads are just ripe for the threadjacking. I'll be sure to leave a trail of turds on every one of the brain droppings here that suit my fancy. Getting you shit-eaters to complain about the taste after opening your mouths wide and saying "Ahhhh..." to every bad idea under the sun is very satisfying, I must admit."
It's your MO, dude. Always bad faith argument. Now he'll post my name or my address or threaten to contact my employer. Like the other lefty thugs who can't actually argue the case, but must mock, evade, straw-man, and threaten.
You have only changed your photo and name, not your character.
"We, the people, should demand to know what happened, how it was that thousands of protesters were able to occupy the state Capitol building day and night for weeks ..."
We already know how it happened, Ann. Unionized police facilitated the takeover since they benefit from government-official union negotiations just as the teachers do.
In Boston, unionized police are making over $200,000 a year and retiring with million-dollar pensions. Do you think they're going to protect those dollars?
of course they are.
The police have been corrupted by the money their unions have stolen from taxpayers. They are protecting the protesters. Anybody tries to remove them will be arrested and jailed - with questions asked later after the damage is done.
Any questions?
They're fucking thugs with guns and badges.
I wouldn't fuck with them if I was you.
Nice little blog you got here. Be a shame if anything happened to it.
I don't think Republicans are bad guys. I just think that they're wrong (or at least at the moment they are, and very wrong, at that) and that the direction in which they've been trying to push the state for the last forty-three years has reached its natural limits.
The extremist language that you entertain in your comment - ("anarchy is what you get when cops decide which laws they will or will not follow.") - shows that there is a certain sense of balance in life that you are rather desperately losing sight of.
Now he'll post my name or my address or threaten to contact my employer.
Or maybe, just maybe, paranoia and hysterics is your MO. It goes beyond MO, though. It's a way of life for you. And one that obviously pervades your comments - as I had pointed out.
Like the other lefty thugs who can't actually argue the case, but must mock, evade, straw-man, and threaten.
Why not bring up your favorite straw man for this... that Alinsky guy?
Hitler... Alinsky... Hitler... Alinsky...
They represent the yin-yang of right-wing political bugbears.
I love how Pogo fearfully accuses me of threatening to "expose" him while obsessively posting a long-ago comment of mine, that he thinks exposes me for expressing something other than what he thinks I meant.
That's a pretty interesting, and hypocritcial, MO.
Walker and the republicans ought to admit they fucked up by not going far enough. They should pass a right to work law in WI and outright ban public service unions and pass a concealed carry law and a full school voucher program. It's time they man up and represent the taxpayers and not the tax moochers.
Political cops aren't cops, there enforcers. Those cops should be fired and stripped of their retirement benefits.
Lordie Lordie--you folks can have wisconsin. Fucked up beyond all belief--and cold and the cheese and brats arent all that good--
when cheese and brats are the only thing you have to offer, aint much there
and already several states including wisconsin have gone forward with reforms--thanks to douchenozzle himself who presaged the republican takeover of state houses--including the bint in chief ms pelosi
we love ya guys
Ritmo--get over yourself son--you're a bigger douchenozzle than Mr Obama with a much smaller stage to play on.
Grow up
Loyalty and duty only trump the nutritional needs of life in your sado-masochistic understanding of life and society, edutcher.
Sorry if respecting another person's needs gets in the way of your unscrupulous/amoral political worldview.
The brotherly bands of a hungry stomach are stronger among soldiers and policemen than those brought about by any so-called union.
I somehow adhere to the subversive belief that defending its acquisition for the purpose of sustaining the basic nutritional and residential needs of life is a more scrupulous and principled position than defending its acquisition for the purpose of enriching one's already considerable political power.
The moron who wrote these either 1) actually believes that the curtailment of collective bargaining will cause the poor, poor pitiful public employees to starve and go homeless, or 2) is just blowing smoke out his ass.
Either way, it only underscores his idiocy.
The extremist language that you entertain in your comment - ("anarchy is what you get when cops decide which laws they will or will not follow.") - shows that there is a certain sense of balance in life that you are rather desperately losing sight of.
LOL! You gotta admit that's pretty rich considering some of the stuff you post.
Roger! Glad to know that the generation that you've lost power to has taught you a trendy new term or two! That internet and Urban Dictionary really are cool things, aren't they? Perhaps they will now teach you about some things that other Baby Boomers could desperately use: Compassion and Reason. Lord knows you haven't picked them up from watching the incumbent president who will wipe the floor with the entire field of GOP candidates come 2012.
LOL! You gotta admit that's pretty rich considering some of the stuff you post.
Yeah, I know. But when I try to speak in a more removed and objective way I get accused of being an intellecshull, etc., so its a trickier balance to pull off. You have to remember that I don't have the benefit of a peanut gallery here. ;-)
Ritmo--you gonna have spell that argument out to me in more coherent terms--
if you didnt repeatedly lapse into ad hom arguments I would have a bit more respect for you--but alas--you lapse into them in the second interaction.
you have a brain--learn to use it son--publish someting--make something of yourself--but being an asshole on a blog makes you a bit lower than whale shit.
Actually I love ad homs--makes it so much fun :)
this is actually like flame wars on usenet 20 years ago--wonderful
the good old days
Roger, you know I only use my ad hominems against you when I can do so as lovingly as you use "douchenozzle" against me!
Anyway, diplomacy is under-rated on the web, you are right and I know you are big enough to appreciate that. Good think I've got a great private sector job that allows me to rise above whale shit. But unfortunately larger civic engagement and ideas are just as important to me. Thankfully there's an internet for that, too - as well as serving as society's bathroom wall.
Oh well. To paraphrase the inimitable Don Rumsfeld, I guess we converse with each other using the internet we have.
C4BDH @ 12:24pm:
"But when I try to speak in a more removed and objective way I get accused of being an intellecshull (sic)..."
Response:
LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. OMFG! LOL!
That right there was some hilarious stuff. You deserve an award for comedian of the year. Come forward, rogue, and claim your prize.
Ritmo--I do appreciate your insights--but you have the social skills of a wounded warthog--you invariably resort to ad homs --not worth my time or effort to document but I suspect the readership can do so.
My suggestion--try argumentation without ad homs (and you do have some skills in that regard)--some people (including me) might respect you--but not in your current incarnation--and for christ sakes son--choose a single identity--makes you look less psychotic.
Roger:
Do you honestly think that Rush Limbaugh, Matt Drudge, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, etc., etc., ad infinitum ad nauseam have given the cons who battle me here the ability, incentive, inspiration, inclination, etc. to engage people who disagree with them the social skills, grace, aplomb, etc. of something better than a "wounded warthog"?
I can only do battle with the tools that have been deemed legitimate. Not as witty a paraphrasing of the Rumsfeld quote, but I do like that structure and hope it helps you see where I'm coming from.
So this is the new progressivism, is it? Cops should only protect those who don't criticize them. Nice.
When you see the behavior of the modern progressive movement, it is easy to see how the previous progressive movement gave birth to fascism, communism, and national socialism.
And that's not to mention Andrew Breitbart.
I honestly don't see how with acolytes as illustrious as those, some people put themselves in the position to demand that others follow their idea of a higher standard of civility in the square of public debate.
no ritmo--since I do not have a tv and do not listen to the idiots on the airwaves I cannot comment--I can honestly say I do not listen to talk radio, or rachel maddow or kieth whats his name.
so I would prefer those strawmen not be used against me. now I can argue using such references as marsilio of padua, machiavelli,and the numerous writers during the english civil war--and if you are not familiar with those then we probably have little to discuss--I assure you I am much more familiar with them than you are--so I do not need any one in the current panoply of "commentators" to form my opinions--
Look up Marsilio--his writings are quite profound--gives some considerable insight into todays events
you invariably resort to ad homs
"Resort to?" :)
Dude, you need to pay attention. He's here specifically to insult people he disagrees with. He admits this. Which raises the question: why are you arguing with him?
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Rev--I am an addicted classical liberal--I keep trying to use John Stuart Mill's argument about free speech.
But at the end of the day I can resort to my command of classic anglo saxon four letter words that I learned in the cavalry.
:)
That's bull Revenant. I am more than capable of and open to debating any idea with anyone who can do so fairly and honestly. There are a significant portion of people here who understand that. If you don't, then that's a pity.
The first comments on any thread here of any post are invariably insults of the people whom Althouse has disagreed with. Who is not paying attention to whom, exactly?
But hey, at least you got to call me an idiot, which is nice. It also completely demolishes any point you were trying to make.
Roger:
I am not using the foundational heros of modern conservative punditry as a strawman against you. I am drawing reference to them to point out the political environment they have shaped among the larger public (amply represented here) and the inevitable fact that the majority of Althousians look to their style as a standard for social behavior, especially insofar as it has anything to do with political thought.
I would praise you for having the good sense to nurture your mind with more sensible and important influences (and I thank and appreciate you for recommending that I either inform myself of them or read them in further depth). But you already knew that's how I felt.
The point is, why shouldn't their rigor (and your example in following that) be the standard? Is Althouse and her crew doing them a service or a disservice? Does that even matter and if not, why not?
Yeah, I know. But when I try to speak in a more removed and objective way I get accused of being an intellecshull, etc., so its a trickier balance to pull off. You have to remember that I don't have the benefit of a peanut gallery here. ;-)
Well to be honest, I usually ignore your posts because they are often big on invective and short on substance. I get the impression that you are simply dropping turds (to use your colorful phrase), so I tend to ignore them. I only engaged you today because I found your argument intriguing. Silly, but intriguing.
And them you dismissed me by implying I am unbalanced. C'est la vie.
You really can't blame people for attacking you when you send out the signal that you come here looking for a fight. Walk into a bar with your attitude and you will likely get a similar response.
And as for my own television habits, I cancelled my cable subscription (and by extension, access to nearly all televised signals) more than 3 or 4 years ago. One of the best decisions I've made.
This agreement of taste between me and yourself, Roger, I would take as evidence of the validity of Seven Machos' dictum to regard matters of taste as a basis for morality.
Ordinarily, however, I wouldn't agree with him, though. On that as well as most other things. ;-)
I don't know how drunk the average Althousian is, JL, but I don't see this place as a bar. Others have suggested coffee house, or the even more beverage neutral "salon". But not a bar.
In any event, most people are prone to rhetorical excesses when talking about things important to them. Hence: Roger's appreciation for colorful (if appropriate, not that anyone could define that) rhetoric, and Trooper's embrace of that as behavior as natural and understandable as it can be problematic.
I did not dismiss you as unbalanced; I dismissed the gauge you are following for what constitutes a healthy separation between private-public interests to be unbalanced.
And I am not responsible for Pogo's or anyone else's misinterpretation and fixation with a previous post of mine.
I notice Ritmo has gone from slightly humorous to downright dour and bitter.
I am not bitter, Alex. It's called a more serious discussion.
Or as Bill and Ted might say, Stuff "So Crates" would talk about.
Enjoy the day, guy. ;-)
Ok- go anywhere people gather, and tell the crowd- "You're all a bunch of cretins and I'm your intellectual superior!"- and see what kind of reaction you get.
There are a lot of bright folks here. I don't get how you come by your pomposity.
I gotta run now.
Some arguments work, some are more emotional or just based in tradition. If you have a better argument, why are you responsible for making it sound humble enough for someone else to not be offended at being shown to be wrong?
Seriously, what do I have to do? Apologize for going against blog wisdom and address everyone as "Sir" and "Madam", preface my remarks with descriptions of their eminence and great esteem?
I just don't get what you're poking at, Just Lurking. You seem to imply that challenging conventional ideas (conventional "wisdom") is a serious offense and one that begs my endless humility.
Since that dynamic is a theme that recurs constantly throughout history, I feel inclined to assume that it is what you are saying.
Or, of course, you could clarify upon your return. No rush, just whenever you feel like getting your next refreshment.
The press should be not only a collective propagandist and a collective agitator, but also a collective organizer of the masses.--Vladimir Lenin
I, of course, neither agree with nor approve of that statement.
Well, Perfessor, as a Conservative Wisconsin resident, I think that Tubbs was successful--IFF avoiding mayhem is 'success.'
At the same time, the definition of "respectful behavior" was taken down by several notches.
Was that a fair trade?
C4BDH: I was suggesting that the police be reminded of Kant's categorical imperative. That if they feel justified in selectively enforcing the law based on politics, then they (and you) should have no complaints when the military bases their behavior on politics. And my father is a retired police officer of 26 years, afetr which he taught high school for 10 more years. No stranger to public sector unions, but intelligent enough to see the stupidity of police acting in such a way. Clear enough?
"afetr which he taught high school for 10 more years"
He taught careers in public service classes (mainly law enforcement). Not spelling.
Glad to hear that they're looking into the handcuffing of the doors. It's a sad testament to the state of things in Wisconsin that without this blog, nobody would've known (or given a crap).
A question for you Madisonians. Everywhere I look there is mention of recall drives against Scott Walker and against Republican senators. Nothing about recall drives against any of the 14 "Fleebaggers." Are there no such recall drives going? What's the matter with you folks in Wisconsin?
"Tubbs called Meade at 2:15 this afternoon (Saturday) to say they are looking into the handcuffs matter."
When he called did he say "They call me Mr. Tubbs."
Throughout this whole thing I was appalled at the complete lack of professionalism of the Capitol police in Madison. They are responsible for public safety, but rather than impartially doing their jobs they took sides. This jeopardized the safety of public officials as well as ordinary citizens. The state police really need to conduct and investigation of this department. The Capitol PD leadership needs to be replaced ASAP and all officers need retraining. Gov. Walker should not tolerate this kind of unprofessionalism.
I used to donate to my local police and fire associations. They are negotiating their contract right now. They have hinted through backchannels that the mayor and alderfolks who aren't with them shouldn't expect timely service.
I will no longer donate to those associations.
What was the rationale for exempting the police unions from the provisions of the reform anyway? It seems to me the most compelling case for outright banning public employee unions is seen in the public safety area. I don't understand why, if you are going to push for public employee union reform, you don't go ahead and address the law enforcement (and fire, EMS, etcetera) problem right up front.
This line just jumped off the page at me:
" ... but I live in the real world, here in Madison, Wisconsin. "
I would never have guessed that's where it is.
[PhD, UW-Madison, '87]
Interesting to see that Tubbs called Meade after you posted this morning that Tubbs had not called Meade as promised. Guess that shows that Tubbs reads your blog and is responding to it.
What was the rationale for exempting the police unions from the provisions of the reform anyway?
The rationale is called "picking a fight you can win".
Eventually the police and firefighters will have to be brought in line, too.
Ritmo: while obsessively posting a long-ago comment of mine, that he thinks exposes me for expressing something other than what he thinks I meant.
No. Pogo is spot on. You got cocky and admitted why you post here - to hijack threads that challenge libtard groupthink. You're here to spike them, to stink up the place so bad that people will turn away.
You admit to being a disrupter, a Troll. So its fair game to throw that back in you face when you muck up the thread.
Shorter Conservatives for Better Dental Health (and indeed most "progressives":
"People who disagree with me deserve to die."
I used Google images for a picture of Capitol Police Chief Charles Tubbs. And lo and behold, he's a person of color. Perhaps the only one in Madison. Hahaha.
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