I saw these people myself today. At first I thought it was some sort of comic street theater, but it was, apparently, real doctors, defending what they were doing. I'll have my video interview up soon. I asked if it was dishonest or unethical, and the answer was that everyone has symptoms, perhaps a migraine, diarrhea, or insomnia. I suggested "activitis."
UPDATE: My video:
UPDATE 2: I spoke to another doctor — I assume he's a doctor — and I asked him whether he was worried, with all the cameras here, about his reputation. He said no. But he didn't use a political defense. He didn't say he supported the protesters and wanted to help them. He said people really do have symptoms, and it's a normal thing for doctors to believe patients who report symptoms and to write excuse notes for them. People call doctors all the time to get the required notes, and doctors trust the patients to report their symptoms properly. He ticked off the symptoms I've listed above.
Posts
93 comments:
Is there something in the water in Madison that makes these people naturally fucked up?
Big Government corrupts everything.
That is just galling! I'm really furious now!
"Give me liberty or..." no, just give me a fake excuse so my boss doesn't dock my pay or get mad at me.
And they are so brazen, almost as if they have gotten a free pass for decades to do any illegal activity as long as it's for a liberal cause.
Dear ______
Fen needs to be excused from work today due to severe sunburn acquired from skipping work today.
Thanks
Doc
Dear Fen
Don't bother coming in next week.
You're fired.
Cheers
The Boss
Professor--again thanks for blogging thru the furor in WI. A question for you--and given your frenetic pace no answer required--but I presume you are an officer of the court. Is there a role for an officer of the court in such a blatent display of illegality? (please understand not meant to be a challenge to you; just a point of clarification for me)
If these doctors can be identified, they should have their licenses pulled, and any teacher that shows up with their "excuse" should be fired summarily for fraud.
Enough!
I hope there is some fallout from this. If this were happening in my state, I would be noting names and license numbers, and sending off complaint letters to my medical licensing board and attorney general.
As it is, I can just watch, and wait, and hope things unfold the way they should. The "sick" teachers and the doctors who are "excusing" them are acting like spoiled brats, throwing a temper tantrum when they don't get their way. I admire Walker and the other Wisconsin Republicans for having the backbone to stand up to this kind of theatrics. Anyone who has ever parented a toddler knows if you give in, you only make things worse down the road -- and our elected leaders have been giving in for far too long.
Astonishing. I work in a federally licensed and regulated profession. I wouldn't risk my license this way, certainly not for such a selfish reason. What ever happened to the idea that the students come first? What ever hapopened to shared sacrifice?
I cannot believe a person held in a position of trust and expertise such as a doctor would commit such a patently fraudulent act. I couldn't make myself lie like a teacher, no matter how deeply I believed in my cause. I just couldn't do it.
But I just saw it. Thankfully I am no longer a member of a union.
In a few of the frames, it's evident that the doctor(s) tried to conceal the hospital or medical school that issued the white coats.
Is use of a hospital- or medical-school issued coat an additional infraction here?
LOL at the MD who tried to invoke HIPAA.
One of the people signing notes (on camera) was James H Shropshire MD, an Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine at the Wisconsin School of Medicine, Department of Family Medicine.
I look forward to seeing the disciplinary actions taken by the State of Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin against Dr. Shropshire, who apparently feels free to issue fraudulent medical diagnoses for political reasons.
"And they are so brazen, almost as if they have gotten a free pass for decades to do any illegal activity ... "
There is rampant Medicare fraud. Who do you think is perpetuating all that fraud? And remember ... the AMA helped pass ObamaCare ... an un-Constitutional law designed to force people to pay for health care they do not need.
This is small change for that corrupt crowd of thieves.
I'm always amazed by how pervasively, compulsively dishonest lefties are. There's absolutely no corrupt, greedy, dishonest, vicious behavior they can't feel noble and smug about engaging in.
There's something wrong with those people.
You have to be a professional to hold to a professional code of ethics and most doctors are technicians only.
Since the AMA went over to the Lefties decades ago, I suspect disciplinary hearings won't happen soon, but there are probably legal remedies at hand.
Maybe firing the teachers is just a start.
If I were a parent, this would be the last straw. Swell example for the kids.
PS Love the tag GatewayPundit put on the demo Senators - Fleebaggers.
Here's the thing - the Dems are working very hard right now to engineer a confrontation with the GOP over the budget that will result in a government shutdown - just google up what "landslide" Harry Reid said yesterday.
They want a government shutdown that they can blame on the Republicans so that they can ride the wayback machine to the Clinton era where such things pissed off voters. I think a shutdown will actually please some voters this time around, but the Dems are married to this idea of replaying the past and condemning republicans for cutting off the flow of public services.
Well what the heck is a public employee strike (especially an illegal one) but a shutdown of a public service?
Mind boggling what they get away with.
Proving once again that there is not a single honorable person on the Left. Not even the Doctors.
For Wales, Richard, for Wales?
"Fleebaggers."
Instant classic!
I asked if it was dishonest or unethical,...
Yes it is, and it's disgusting.
Since they're on camera, and clearly lying, can't they be held responsible in some way?
The media, Political Correctness, and job security scams like unions have all conspired to create the modern liberal as we know him/her. They can't even begin to picture how their behavior comes across to others. They've been so insulated from criticism for so long, they don't have to.
Well, I'm guessing these doctors all just lost their licenses, eh?
If not, why not?
Correction: they think they don't have to.
I wonder if employers in the future would put. Any. Weight on these doctors' work excuses in the future. Or, imagine what a malpractice. Lawyer could do with the info that a doctor signed fake excuses. Wouldn't do much fo r a defendant's credibility.
Really, shameful. As a doctor, I understand how borderline some work excuses can be. No one but the patient knows how sick they really feel. But as an employer I've also seen more than my fair share of bogus excuses. Work excuses are not something physicians should treat lightly.
Usually state medical boards are independent so the gov may have little power in this matter--the commissioner of health however as a political appointment may find him/herself in an awkward position.
Please excuse the strange punctuation. I have not gotten used to the iPad.
"Here's the thing - the Dems are working very hard right now to engineer a confrontation with the GOP over the budget that will result in a government shutdown .. "
And this is where we'll learn what Republicans are made of - and whether we need a third party or not.
If Republicans refuse to stand up to Democrats and refuse to fund Democrat Party programs then what do we need Republicans for in the first place?
I for one don't want my Republican representatives FUNDING Democrats. Democrats are the enemies of America and freedom and the party that I belong to will not fund them ... or else I'll do everything in my power to end that political party and start a new one that will promise NOT to fund Democrat programs.
Republicans should put forth a budget so we can see what Democrat Party programs Republicans want to continue funding.
And then let's have a vote.
If that budget doesn't pass, so be it. Those programs aren't funded any longer.
It is the "omnibus" spending that is designed to ensure Democrat Party funding sources using taxpayer money.
That has to stop and it will stop one way or the other.
"... can't they be held responsible in some way?"
How, exactly? The corrupt police are unionized and won't enforce the laws because their union brothers are committing the crimes.
The AMA has given Democrats hundreds of millions in donations over the last 30 years to get them to look the other way while the medical profession eviscerates the Medicare and Medicaid programs with rampant fraud and embezzlement.
We live in a Democrat Party kleptocracy and they own the cops, dude.
You can forget about "holding them accountable."
We're living in lawless times; the Old West. And it's going to take "Old West solutions" to end this lawlessness.
PatCA,
And they are so brazen, almost as if they have gotten a free pass for decades to do any illegal activity as long as it's for a liberal cause.
Surprise. And it's not just at rallies like this. I've been saying, for some time now, how I've been encountering it in day-to-day life and nobody cares - not even the conservatives. It's like they can do anything to a black conservative and, as long as it falls below actual violence, it's all good.
I often question what planet Ann and many others live on, not just because they don't usually see it, but because their reaction to hearing about it from me is so blase', like I'm lying or something. These people have no values - clearly - and they get away with murder. How so few understand that is beyond me.
So Government employees like Dr. James Shropshire are openly using their positions of trust and authority to abet crimes being committed against the State?
If he still has his job next week, then Wisconsin might as well give up. They own you.
Lincolntf--well dr S answers to the dean of his medical school and ultimately to the chancellor--I amm SURE that those fearless bastards will take swift action on Tuesday--oh wait.
There seems to be a misimpression that the AMA stands for anything but their own board. It does not represent 90% of doctors anymore and has no power. It gets its money from the CPT code book, which it stole from the California Medical Association years ago. It has no power over medical schools or licenses.
These docs should be brought before the Medical Board and asked what examination they performed to justify the sick note. If none, that violates the licensing law. I think a 6 month suspension should get their attention.
The right wing doesn't need a doctor to verify that they're sick.
The right wing doesn't need a doctor to verify that they're sick.
But... the left wing ... does... ?
I don't think this insult worked out as well as you thought it would.
I have to say this may have been the biggest blunder the pro-union side could have made. Fundamentally this strikes almost everyone as wrong, except for the Garagey relativists who find the means justified. This is going to backfire, even if it results in nothing more than shaming some overpaid government docs.
"Since the AMA went over to the Lefties decades ago, I suspect disciplinary hearings won't happen soon, but there are probably legal remedies at hand."
Indeed there are. The AMA is powerless, but the Wisconsin Medical Examining Board is not. They ought to be flooded with complaints.
"You have to be a professional to hold to a professional code of ethics"
Uh, maybe. But, if true, it's a bit of a tautology to say so.
"..most doctors are technicians only."
You assume patients function (cognitively and physiologically) the same way simple mechanical devices do. Not true, technically speaking.
The doctors in this video are committing fraud, at least in the vernacular sense of the word. Either way, it is unprofessional.
Offering a note is a not medical treatment and not subject to malpractice. You'll note that no diagnosis was offered. The doctor is not an agent of the patient's employer and does not have any obligation to the employer.
"Offering a note is a not medical treatment and not subject to malpractice. You'll note that no diagnosis was offered. The doctor is not an agent of the patient's employer and does not have any obligation to the employer."
But being on record cavalierly writing fraudulent excuses certainly does undermine a doctor's credibility. And that can be used against him in any court setting. (FYI - doctors don't only get hauled in to court for malpractice. We also often have to testify in our patient's other litigatioins- car accidents, etc. Would you trust the testimony of these doctors about someone's accident related injuries? If you were on the jury and they were the plaintiff in a malpractice case, would you trust their testimony? Trust must be carefully cultivated and earned. These doctors are undermining the trust between our entire profession and the public.) Feh.seasters
First, do no harm.
Then, do no work.
wv: orphama...it writes itself!
"First, do no work."
Get off my meme!
Damn you, Spaulding, you beat me to it!
But being on record cavalierly writing fraudulent excuses certainly does undermine a doctor's credibility.
Meh, at least not anymore than smoking lowers a doctor's credibility or having unpaid parking tickets.
conspiracy to defraud is a crime
The man is clearly willing to falsify documents when it suits his purposes. I think a thorough review of his prescription-writing history should be undertaken immediately. I'm guessing you'd find lots of "questionable" Oxycontin scripts.
I love the doctor's invocation of patient privacy -- you're having the conversation on a public street corner dumb ass!
Gather the data -- easy, the form I saw had a doctor's license number on it. Look through disability and workmen's comp cases for testimony by those doctors, and flag 'em for review.
Publish the data -- not the name of the teacher diagnosed, just the list for each diagnosis the doctor's name, ID, and the zip code of the diagnosed teacher. Now it's available for use by anyone defending comp cases.
Is there something in the water in Madison...?
Check out the brownies, too.
So now we have physicians issuing fraudulent opinions regarding the health of specific individuals for purely political reasons. Oh yeah! I like this a LOT! Think of how much more could be accomplished with these physicians when government is ultimately footing the bill for all medical care. Ethics. They're for the little people.
Imagine if a cop started writing up bogus opinions of what occurred in a certain situation (i.e., in an arrest report). You on board with that, M.Z.?
These "doctors" should be reported to both the AMA and to the police. They have committed fraud.
Some of you need to collect more boxtops if you want to play Internet lawyer.
I'll give you a little hint. You can only commit fraud against an entity you a relationship. In this case, the relationship is between the patient and the doctor. There is no relationship between the doctor and the employer.
Strikes me the data on diagnoses written could also be interesting to malpractice attorneys. I expect a jury might be interested in doctor's willingness to write sketchy documents.
Come to think of it, malpractice insurers might think that something of an exposure, no?
Ummm, doesn't the Doctor work for the same employer as the person falsely claiming illness?
He's committing fraud against his "Boss", the State of Wisconsin.
"Offering a note is a not medical treatment and not subject to malpractice."
On some of the videos of these doctors handing out excuses, medical information was requested and used as the justification for release from work. One seems to invokes HIPAA concerns as he openly questions "patients" in a public place. Medico-legally, what they are doing probably qualifies as a medical evaluation, subject to malpractice. A misdiagnosis that harms someone is not a big worry here. But these doctors make a mockery of providing confidential and ethical evalutaions. Putting a political rationale on that ("everyone is sick of Walker") only makes it worse.
This story (not this post, but the story) is now up on Drudge's top links.
Some groups of people just can't carry on in the dark the way that they always have. And they just can't seem to get used to that idea. And so they'll keep getting outed, like this.
"I'll give you a little hint. You can only commit fraud against an entity you a relationship. In this case, the relationship is between the patient and the doctor. There is no relationship between the doctor and the employer."
Bullshit. A school district is providing a valuable benefit to an employee (paid days off), based on a representation by a licensed medical professional that that person is ill.
If the medical professional is lying about it, that is fraud.
My husband, a doc, suggests that a good question for the "doctors" involved would be "how many people who requested excuses because they said they were sick today have you turned down?" Not that they wouldn't lie about that, too...and not that they would care. But it might take them off guard and be good enough to give them a brief squirm.
Ummm, doesn't the Doctor work for the same employer as the person falsely claiming illness?
No, not that it is particularly relevant here.
Medico-legally, what they are doing probably qualifies as a medical evaluation, subject to malpractice.
I don't really feel like doing all the work here and will let others have fun. In what world does the patient sue the doctor here for malpractice? Let's keep in mind, this is the same medical universe where diagnoses are made over the phone or even the Internet for medications.
In our wonderful pretend world, say there was an investigation of this. The doctor is going to claim the patient was able to go to work. The patient is going to claim they weren't going to work. Our mythical lawyer is going to note there was a labor protest nearby. There is the small matter of their evidence of some consultations being done near the labor protest, but there is going to be no evidence that the particular evaluation was done there, not that there is anything wrong with that anyway.
So according to MZ, I am not a conspirator to fraud if I help my friend defraud his employer because I have no relationship to the employer? I find this legal reasoning highly suspect.
The doctors are filling in fake dates on the forms and then signing them, right? It's obviously no use having a "sick note" for a Saturday, so they must be.
If that kind of outright falsification of documents isn't a fireable/chargeable/sanctionable offense, then nothing is.
M.Z.---speaking here as a real, honest to goodness prosecutor--- you have no idea what you are talking about with regard to fraud. Consider, for example, that in most jurisdictions anyone who aids or induces a crime is also guilty of the crime.
The Wisconsin Medical Board will investigate complaints from citizens about behavior like this. I am going to send one myself.
What is it about the Left that finds this behavior laudable?
"Medico-legally, what they are doing probably qualifies as a medical evaluation, subject to malpractice.
I don't really feel like doing all the work here and will let others have fun. In what world does the patient sue the doctor here for malpractice? Let's keep in mind, this is the same medical universe where diagnoses are made over the phone or even the Internet for medications."
As I said malpractice is not is not likely to result from this. If you think diagnoses made over the phone don't subject a physician to liability you are mistaken. On the latest Althouse video the doc goes to ridiculous lengths to make what he is doing a "real" patient evaluation. Whatever the legal determination of these evaluations for work release, they very well may violate W state ethical restrictions, putting the physicians' licenses at risk of being suspended.
This is an object lesson about why having a single payer system where the docs rely on the state for their income makes it unlikely if not impossible that they are working for you. The system is tough enough now. Imagine Berwick and like minions running your healthcare.
To be a doctor you just need the degree, A physician is a whole different animal requiring ethics and comitment. That guy has neither.
Without an exam handing out notes sight unseen to the masses - the doctor is putting his license on the line.
This is unethical and the doctor should loose his license.
I hope he looses his license and I am going to write a note to AMA to draw attention to this wrong-doing.
The doctor writing notes to large masses or handing out form letter formatted notes without an exam is unethical. I will be writing the AMA and the medical board to look into this misconduct.
Doctors should never lie. Teachers should not lie. The standards clearly states that trust should never be discounted by this type of action.
/via Wisconsin Medical Examining Board
Filing a Complaint, or following up on a previously filed complaint:
DRLEnforcement@wisconsin.gov
Next time one of these lying teachers catches a student cheating, what will they say?
Next time one of these lying teachers catches a student cheating, what will they say?
Did you or any one in your family protest on our behalf in February, 2011?
Is there something in the water in Madison...?
Maganese and Chromium-60.
DADvocate said...
"Did you or any one in your family protest on our behalf in February, 2011?"
No, we didn't. Just exactly why would any sane person do that DAD? You work for US ... remember that you ingrate.
Dear Mr. Kotter:
Epstein is sick today.
--Epstein's Mother
I'm going to guess (but it's a very experienced guess) that every "Doctor" handing out excuses today was a state employee. Getting them fired from their state jobs ought to be job one Monday morning.
@RogerJ
"Is there something in the water in Madison that makes these people naturally fucked up?"
The doctors should be giving out scripts for 'entitlementitis,' a disease that spoiled cossetted coddled lefties are particularly susceptible to. It makes them think they "earned" benefits & packages that they only received through political pattycake between corrupt WI Dem politicos and corrupt WI union thugs.
@RogerJ
I for one would love to have the lovely articulate Ann stand up as my counsel were I to get my Irish up and cold-cock a couple of these preening whining slackers with placards.
She's amply redeemed herself for that slip in 11/08 when she pulled the wrong lever on the national ballot in the voting booth.
@Kevin
"I look forward to seeing the disciplinary actions taken by the State of Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin against Dr. Shropshire, who apparently feels free to issue fraudulent medical diagnoses for political reasons.
I wouldn't hold my breath, Kevin, as several of my siblings went to the U of WI [I went to UMich @Ann Arbor] and tell me the UW is more politicized than the UMich. Hard to imagine.
Maybe the State of WI might strap on some stones, but even there, the bureaucratic desk jockeys are Dems overwhelmingly and would "lose" the paperwork...!
@Tina
"....Not that they wouldn't lie about that, too...and not that they would care. But it might take them off guard and be good enough to give them a brief squirm.
A brief squirm might be worth calling in a complaint about Dr. Shropshire, e.g., to make them remember their [almost certainly] residual professional obligations and the ethos that accompanies them.
However, special pleading and silly rationalizations and blatant lies are the order of the day on the left---have been for over a century.
The events in Madison show the power of the digital revolution in the form of digital cameras and the Internet. Control of information is no longer in the hands of newspapers and television networks. All of us can be reporters if we find ourselves in the right place at the right time. The doctors in this video do not seem to have gotten that message.
THANK YOU for posting this! We have been ALL OVER this issue on our blog Common Cents...
http://www.commoncts.blogspot.com
Is there something in the water in Madison...?
Dihydrogen Monoxide. A very dangerous substance. It can kill you. An over dose can cause severe electrolyte imbalance leading to death.
A litle off-topic, but things like this are why th right-to-lifers are suspicious of the "mother's health" rationale for partial-birth abortion.
pilfered from Oberhammer @ Intense Debate
http://www.fammed.wisc.edu/directory/105
Lou Sanner MD, MSPH aka (Dr.Defensive & Dr. Patient Privacy)
Email: lou.sanner@fammed.wisc.edu
Clinic: Northeast (Madison)
Affiliation: Northeast Family Medical Center
DAMN! Knew I forgot something..
May I intro Dr. Lou Sanner and friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjFbMDp5Pg8
One Doctor ( appears in some video) id'd per Tweeter jim treacher
@jtLOL the doctor handing out fake sick slips is WI lic #21403. According to WI license lookup, Dr Bernard Micke of Madison.
is the following: note "HIS SPECIAL INTERESTS INCLUDE FAA PHYSICALS"
Bernard F. Micke, MD
Faculty, University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health
Bernard Micke, MD earned his medical degree from the Medical College of Wisconsin and completed his residency at Hennepin County Medical Center, Minneapolis. His special interests include FAA physicals.
UW Health Clinics
Palliative Care Medicine (608) 890-9444 UW Hospital and Clinics Map
Languages Spoken
English
Medical interpreters are available to help patients communicate with hospital and clinic staff. For more information, please contact interpreter services at (608) 262-9000.
Professional Certifications and Education
Board Certification Family Medicine
Residency Hennepin County Medical Center, Minneapolis
Internship Hennepin County Medical Center, Minneapolis
Medical School Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, 1974
Hospital Affiliations
Primary Affiliation(s) University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics
Secondary Affiliation(s) Meriter Hospital, St. Mary's Hospital
UW School of Medicine and Public Health
Department of Medicine
QUERY: WOULD HIS OPINION REGARDING A PILOT'S FITNESS BE INFLUENCED BY BY CONCERNS OVER THE PILOT'S ECONOMIC CONCERNS/ DESIRE FOR PROTECTION FROM "UNFAIR" TREATMENT FROM FAA OR AIRLINE...
HOW CREDIBLE ARE HIS PAST AND FUTURE CERTIFICATIONS NOW.
ARE HIS FAA EXAMS CURSORY OR COMPLETE?
HOW SHOULD A BUREAUCRAT RESPOND TO THIS DOCTOR'S OPINIONS, FUTURE AND HISTORICAL.
All assuming the identification is correct, of course...
my point is the corrosive effect of drs (whomever they may be) handing out Dr slips like candy. The FAA hypothet above could apply as easily to others.... what is the effect on previous FMLA opinions etc
Interesting that some of you so interested in "tort reform" now want
to see doctor's sued for malpractice.
That is about all conservatives have had to contribute the health care debate, but look how quickly you shift ground to score a short-term political point. Where are your principles
'M.Z.' said something silly about collecting more boxtops to play at internet lawyer. Well I have enough now I believe.
ONCE those teachers submit those 'excuses' for days missing, they have committed a felony. Look it up big boy. or girl. The used-to-be MD's already committed one by writing out the excuse, they were in most cases, simply recording name and address to be followed up later on by their employer at badgerdoctors@gmail.com - really. good to know, because JB Van Hollen CAN subpeona for all those emails - ALL of them. Sent and received. I see a much larger case moving forward here..
EACH conviction (for EACH excuse submitted) is subject to 6 years and 10k - and the teachers are subject to having committed a felony as well, so they can kiss their licenses good bye as well.
I see the unemployed growing and YET there will be LOTS of WANT THE JOBS & PAY teachers waiting to take their place. Works for me.
Its understandable why my company, Walmart, no longer accepts doctor's excuses in view of what these asses are doing, appropriately the Dem mascot.
Why weren't there any prosecutions for embezzlement?
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