UPDATE: Dead? That's NPR (linked by Drudge). The NYT, updated 4 minutes ago, says her condition is unknown.
ADDED: Gabrielle Giffords was the member of Congress who had the honor of reading the First Amendment when the Constitution was read on the House floor January 6th. Video.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.Peaceably to assemble.
AND: Linking to my post, Instapundit says:
And judging from the comments to this post, people are already trying to score political points. Well, they kind of telegraphed this strategy, didn’t they? Remember Bloomberg making a fool of himself by blaming the Times Square bombing on the Tea Party? How about waiting until we actually know something, this time? That’s likely to be soon enough.Yes. Please.
Posts
291 comments:
1 – 200 of 291 Newer› Newest»NPR says Giffords and six others have died.
Terrible. Just terrible.
This is horrible! We have some really sick and scary people in this country.
Jesus.
Horror.
So wrong.
Damn it. Dozen or more people hurt now.
Sounds like she's still alive now.
Perp in custody.
Sarah Palin had AZ's 8th district in her gun sights.
http://www.takebackthe20.com/
It would be interesting to follow the conversation on teh Internets today, but alas I have to get up and do stuff.
Prayers for everyone impacted - for her family and loved ones and the others killed. Prayers for our country and all of us.
Godawful- seven dead? from what one story called randomly fired shots!
I pray the report, Freeman referred to, is incorrect.
The current report is that she was hit in the head at close range. But the same reports say she was responsive when being bundled into a helicopter.
They dropped a couple of life flight helicopters into the scene.
Now CNN is repeating the NPR report. I'm hoping NPR is wrong.
(Not saying *I* know the shooter was a Palin disciple, just saying that that will be said, and then there will be those against that, and then accusations of this and that, and counter-accusations of that and this...)
Can only concur with those who say horrible--my best wishes to all those wounded and for their complete recovery.
She's gone.
She was one of the House Democrats in Sarah Palin's "target" ad, with the crosshairs placed on a map.
Fuckers.
Can we please drop the hysteria now? All the "reload," drawing targets on people, describing opponents as traitors, all of it that we've heard for years. Just STFU already.
There are fragile minds and hateful minds out there, damn it. Show some responsibility.
Very sad.
So young.
Sad news today. Prayers to the injured, that they survive, and for their family and friends.
Hey, chuck b! Way to be classy! Now, kindly fuck off and leave the political ghoulishness out this. This goes for everybody commenting here on this. Partisanship has no place in this tragedy. There will be time aplenty to sort this out in the coming days. Remember, chuckie, these things can come back and bite your ass big time.
In the meantime, a number of people have been killed, and their families and communities have been plunged into a nightmare that few of us can imagine.
Lay of the political ghoul crap, people.
Is it possible to pray for the wounded and the dead and not make this into a political slime fest--I doubt it, but do hope it goes down that way.
Chuck B, I'm wondering at what point you think that anything you've chosen this moment to say is helpful or appropriate?
Just like woof down below.
Can't even wait on information about the murderer, who is in custody, before spewing hateful accusations. But go ahead. Don't let an opportunity go by.
What Roger J said...
Who is next? Her office has been receiving threats of violence for some time.
Chef Mojo, fuck yourself. Fuck yourself. Sarah Palin drew crosshairs on her, the right wing and Republican Party has been stoking rage in this country for a long time.
Political motivation is the most plausible explanation, asshole. You're arguing this is some random grocery store shootup?
And you will deny it, make apologies as has happened in all the previous political murders.
Who is next?
right of the people peaceably to assemble.
Even 100 years ago they feared split infinitives.
100% behind RogerJ had to say.
We need to wait and get all of the facts before mindlessly throwing poo.
Please show some respect to the fallen.
Fulbright Scholar, Scripps and Cornell graduate, wife of a space shuttle and Navy pilot, businesswoman, serious politician with thoughtful positions on immigration, border security, guns, economic issues, energy. She seems to have been several cuts above the average politician.
Apparently she had no children. And now she never will.
Remember, the DHS warned us of the rising threat of violent extremism from the political right.
And you guys whipped up hysteria over this.
She was a Blue Dog Democrat, for fuck's sake.
Sigh. Too late.
Stop it AL. Stop inciting.
The fucker shot her point blank in the head.
Jesus.
I hope he hangs.
7 dead? Wow.
Youngest woman ever elected to Congress, wife of an astronaut and mother of a daughter. This is where hate speech gets us. Sick, sick, sick. Wake up, America.
"Sigh. Too late."
Of course. AlphaLiberal and his like-minded cronies were already salivating at the mileage they could get out of this before they bothered to check the victims for a pulse.
Grotesque, but that's life.
We have no idea who the person who did this was and what his or her motivation could be.
Or even if the Congressperson was the target or collateral damage.
We need to wait and take a breath and wait for the facts to emerge.
Time enough for politics.
Alha: you are a sorry mother fucker--really a sorry excuse for a human being.
AL,
Will you please shut the hell up. We are willing to ignore your vile bullshit most of the time, but not now.
Several people were just shot to death and here you are attempting to score political points off their corpses.
CNN wheeling back on the report of her death. They're now saying they are getting a conflicting report that she is currently in surgery.
No doubt the left will use this as an excuse to launch an all out civil war now. Giffords = Franz Ferdinand of 2011.
Synova, Is it really my job to be "helpful or appropriate"? The fur is already flying elsewhere. I'm sorry if that upsets you.
Remember when there was a bomb in Times Square and Nanny Bloomberg started talking about the Tea Party and people who were angry about health care.
Slow down. Take a breath. It could just be a garden variety deranged person.
We don't have any facts yet. Other than a good woman has died and should have our thoughts and prayers.
So sorry that this happened to her and all the others there. Her family is in my prayers.
But, oh, Alpha? You're a fucking moron. Give your bullshit a rest for one day at least.
Just awful.
CNN wheeling back on the report of her death. They're now saying they are getting a conflicting report that she is currently in surgery.
MSNBC is also backtracking.
Youngest woman ever elected to Congress, wife of an astronaut and mother of a daughter. This is where hate speech gets us. Sick, sick, sick. Wake up, America.
No doubt you blame Glenn Beck. Next we'll hear calls for silencing anyone who dares criticize Democrats, because after all SOMEONE might take it the wrong way...
"This is where hate speech gets us. Sick, sick, sick. Wake up, America."
See? This event is a political godsend for a certain type of person.
Press releases and ad campaigns and interest group triangulations are already well in the works.
Time enough for politics.
Nonsense. The hysteria is why everybody is enjoying themselves.
@AL:
Typical of you. As usual, you're not letting a crisis go to waste.
You want crosshairs, asshole, go to Kos and check out Blue Boy's diary from 2 days ago. Go ahead. I'll wait. Then talk to me about crosshairs.
In the meantime, wallow in your crisis. I hope you cum real good.
What kind of gun must this guy have had? He apparently wounded as many as 12 people. Reports say security returned fire and wounded the assassin.
And Alpha, shut up, at least until we have some idea who did this. And remember that the first assumption was that a right winger killed Kennedy in Dallas.
The main point is that this is a tragic and despicable act, no matter who did it or what their beliefs.
Been switching back and forth among the cable networks.
FOX is quoting a witness as saying the gunman "shouted something" before firing.
For AlphaLiberal's sake, I hope it wasn't "Allahu Akbar."
I know this is a blog and 24 hours news cycle etc--might not this be an appropriate time to stop posting and let the situation settle for 6 hours? you guys can do what you want, but I am out of here.
Perhaps we should all try a little backtracking. We don't yet know whether this was the work of Gavril Princip or John Hinckley.
I would expect nothing less from Alpha Liberal.
How about no more responses to the sicko posts here?
I've taken the pledge.
Giffords is dead. 4-6 others are also dead, one is a child.
This is not how we do things in this country, damn it.
For the sake of argument what if it was a white male and he shouted out "For the Republicans!", does this condemn all Republicans and conservatives? Really I want to know why my political speech would suddenly be subjected to being censored because of a lone madman.
Alphaliberal: "Can we please drop the hysteria now?"
"I want you to get in their faces. I want you to punch them back twice as hard. - Barack Obama
This eliminationist rhetoric has consequences.
There are also consequences when Democrats ram death panels to deny Americans proper life-saving health care down America's throat.
I imagine some people are going to take that as an attack that they need to defend themselves against and that they're going to punch the Congress back twice as hard. Get in their faces.
I wonder if anyone in the United States Senate is listening?
Democrats declared war on the American people and I for one don't find it too surprising that people are choosing to fight back.
Alpha you appear to be the only person thrilled by this event. Hop off your high horse and have some respect.
This is not how we do things in this country, damn it.
Who is WE kimosabe? Last I checked no one here pulled the trigger.
What kind of gun must this guy have had? He apparently wounded as many as 12 people.
Some pistols hold more than 15 rounds, and with spare magazines can be reloaded almost instantly.
Peter
"For the sake of argument what if it was a white male and he shouted out "For the Republicans!", does this condemn all Republicans and conservatives? Really I want to know why my political speech would suddenly be subjected to being censored because of a lone madman."
You lost me on this.
Here is the art work on Sarah Palin's rifle scope crosshairs on Rep Giffords' district and others.
That server's been crashed so here's another photo of Palin's violence-themed campaign solicitation.
Coherent eyewitness (a Safeway employee) says 15-20 shots fired. The Congresswoman shot in the head from "close range." Six dead. A "21 year old male" in custody.
Not dead? Jesus, our home is in turmoil this morning. I wasnt going to comment, but maybe there is some hope.
A prayer is needed. Please?
"You lost me on this."
Don't worry. By the time evening rolls around, "Alex" will have put on his "left wing" disguise and will be blaming this on Rush Limbaugh.
Unfortunately, the left is using this tragedy to score political points. Rep. Giffords was on Gov. Palin’s target list for defeat this past November. The left claims Gov. Palin has blood on her hands. So does the tea party movement.
Yup, the left has no shame. They are no actively attempting to stifle and foment violence against conservatives.
@AL: Here, I'll even give you the link; http://boyblue.dailykos.com/storyonly/2011/1/6/933828/-My-CongressWOMAN-voted-against-Nancy-Pelosi!-And-is-now-DEAD-to-me!
Guess, what asshole? This has just about the same pertinence as Sarah Palin figuratively "targeting" congressional districts.
Still feeling the pleasure, AL? This crisis is really jacking you off, isn't it?
Some DailyKos for AL to read: My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!
2:37 p.m. ET: KOLD-TV in Tucson reports it has been told by hospital officials that Giffords, 40, is alive and in surgery.
Fingers crossed.
This is no time to try to make political hay.
Who was the asshat that jumped to conclusions when an INS office was attacked in NY?
here's a gem I found on a left-wing blog just now:
This is the dark heart of the Western Taliban. Beautiful and horrible in its simplicity: Derive power from selling fear and hate. Whip that product into a corrosive froth. Sit back and count the bodies.
No shame.
DailyKos Diarist: "Giffords is dead to me now."
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2011/1/6/933828/-My-CongressWOMAN-voted-against-Nancy-Pelosi!-And-is-now-DEAD-to-me!
In Africa and Europe we have seen radio hosts and politicians openly call for the killing of people.
Then those people are killed.
Hysterical demagogues are creating that situation here.
Sarah Palin:
"Don't retreat - RELOAD!"
Fuck you too, Sarah, you sick fuck.
The fur is flying elsewhere? Who gives a shit, chuck.
But I guess it's flying here as well, now, isn't it. Gracias, amigo.
And yeah... the pre-triangulation, the need not to let a crisis go to waste, it all smells a whole lot of party-time don't it? Whoo-hoo! We can make political hay! Lets go! Alpha! You got your script baby, get your points in there early, before any details come out. We all know how to spin this, too bad of the sacrifice, but it will come out in our favor, huh?
Everyone knows that the violent rhetoric of the left is as vile and outright aggressive as any on the right, but a death, a real *death*, that will obscure that truth and political points can be made. The opportunity can not be wasted. The only thing that could happen that would be better is the *left-wing* assassination fantasies about Obama came true.
Dancing on graves is a liberal specialty. Can you imagine the sorrow if Congresswoman Giffords doesn't die and the political rally at her funeral has to be canceled?
Fox is saying she is still alive . . . doesn't make this any less horrible, but we can pray she comes through this.
"Some pistols hold more than 15 rounds, and with spare magazines can be reloaded almost instantly."
But usually shooters don't get that many shots on target. Either the crowd was dense or this guy was a composed and experienced shooter.
Are there any grassy knolls nearby?
This is like Viagra for AlphaLiberal. You can almost sense the erotic trembling in his typing.
Alpha's fake concern is a tad thick. You just know he's smiling ear to ear.
Fuck you too, Sarah, you sick fuck.
If anything ends up happening to Sarah Palin, will you accept your share of responsibility?
("I never called for her death!")
Neither did she.
"This is no time to try to make political hay."
On the contrary. This is a teachable moment in American civics. Time to pull your children close and show them how America was born.
Our founding fathers did precisely the same thing to their government in order to create the United States of America.
They declared war on their own government and cast off their oppressors to create new guards for their security.
Then they started killing those who taxed them.
@Palladian:
Yeah, Alpha is really getting off on it. Viagra indeed.
Florida - it's time for you to get the banhammer.
Alpha is def masturbating furiously to the idea that this can somehow be pinned on Sarah Palin. Maybe he envisions her on trial for this, that increases his pleasure.
Looks alike Alpha's getting his direction from Sully: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/an-assassination.html
Still not clear that she is dead.
I just reread Jim Bishop's "The Day Kennedy was Shot."
Confusion and misinformation was rampant and some has never been cleared up.
"I hope that's not where we're going, but you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies. They're saying: My goodness, what can we do to turn this country around?" Sharron Angle
It was perfectly okay for chuck to mention the Palin had 'targeted her district.' He even clarified his statement a short time later. Get a grip, people, especilly AL.
Reports are now that Gifford is alive!!! - they are syaing she is in critical condition.
Please continue your prayers for all impacted - which I think includes us all - but especially for those who loved and cared for the dead and wounded.
Florida, florida... you completely forgot.
Left wing people can talk about politicians being dead all day long and next Tuesday and it's Not The Same Thing.
Giffords also got the signature spot of reading the 1st Amendment. Did you notice?
"Our founding fathers did precisely the same thing to their government in order to create the United States of America."
Really? I missed the bits of history where the Founders gunned down civilians at political rallies.
Maybe you and AlphaLiberal can get a room somewhere for your blood feast.
I lied: I am back for my last comment to Althouse: Ms A--if you had a shred of human decency would spike this thread--you wont of course because it drives up your hit count which is what this is all about.
Fox says that it had three sources saying that she was dead. Now they are backing off, explaining their coverage, and that she is alive and "in surgery."
"... it's time for you to get the banhammer."
For reciting American history? Wow.
I don't see why Althouse should close this thread. It's important to defend our rights to free speech in the wake up lefties using this assassination as a beachhead to silence us. Remember they WILL silence us if you just shut up.
Live Stream
Florida - you clearly express approval for assassinations, so you should be banned. You should shut the fuck up.
I'm out of here. Too much troll sickness.
Alex: Congresswoman Giffords is a friend of mine, in fact I just talked to her at our last state party meeting in December. She has always tried to do the right thing to benefit the people down there in Tucson as well as the United States of America. Your trying to spin this into attempts by liberals to 'foment violence against conservatives' would be twisted and bizarre if it were not so sickening right now.
Rep. Giffords' office was shot during the campaign (as well as Rep. Grijalva's.) A lot of the rest of those who voted for the health care law received death threats.
Incidentally, I was present when an unruly crowd in the Holbrook Safeway on Aug. 7, 2009 caused then rep. Ann Kirkpatrick to leave (which was shamelessly exploited during the campaign by the Gosar campaign as saying she had 'walked out' on her constituents.
I'm angry. I'm willing to wait until we know more about the suspect and why he did this horrible murder before I say more specifically about this.
deborah said...It was perfectly okay for chuck to mention the Palin had 'targeted her district.'
I respectfully disagree.
"I missed the bits of history where the Founders gunned down civilians at political rallies."
Were you not taught Civil War history in junior high school? Abraham Lincoln ordered the United States military to kill American people in the southern states where he did not command political power.
Chef Mojo, fuck yourself. Fuck yourself. Sarah Palin drew crosshairs on her, the right wing and Republican Party has been stoking rage in this country for a long time.
Note you don't even see the irony.
Palladian said...
This is like Viagra for AlphaLiberal. You can almost sense the erotic trembling in his typing.
OH yeah it is.
And she's not the only one.
The leftist are in a tizzy now...
And not for the last time, I imagine :)
AP is now reporting that she's died.
"I don't see why Althouse should close this thread. It's important to defend our rights to free speech in the wake up lefties using this assassination as a beachhead to silence us. "
The very first post from AlphaLibera attempted to do just that. To use this violence as a way of silencing criticisms of those in the Democrat Party who are destroying our country.
I will not be silent unless Ann Althouse does as they suggest and she bans me.
I hope she will stand for a principle.
Democrats brought union thugs to intimidate and beat the American people during town hall meetings on ObamaCare.
Those violent actions have consequences. This is one of the consequences. Once people are attacked then they strike back and the American people feel they are under attack from their own government.
People are striking back - just like their president urged them to do.
This is a VERY dangerous time. The liberals are going to use this assassination to shred the Constitution, just you wait and see. They needed a smoking gun, here it is. I expect calls to ban the 2nd amendment very shortly.
Eli Blake saide....
I'm angry. I'm willing to wait until we know more about the suspect and why he did this horrible murder before I say more specifically about this.
I think that is very sensible and the right way to approach this tragedy. I never agree with Eli Blake about anything but he is 100%correct about this and we would all be wise to follow his lead.
I am very sorry for your loss.
if violent, over the top rhetoric is obviously BAD, then why do the lefties give a complete pass to the New Black Panthers and Kanye West?
The liberals are going to use this assassination to shred the Constitution
No. First, they've already been using the attempted assissination of President Reagan and the resulting paralysis of Jim Brady. Second, neither that attempt nor the very successful attempts prior to then have been used successfully to shred the Constitution.
There's nothing wrong with this thread that losing three commenters wouldn't solve.
@Eli, thank you for your forbearance. Yes, let's find out what happened first.
I was a teenager when Kennedy was shot. I have vivid memories of people rushing to claim that the assassination was a Texas plot to put LBJ into the presidency, or that the shooter was a member of some right wing militia. In the end, of course, Lee Harvey Oswald was a dedicated member of the far left lunatic fringe, who had gone to live in Russia and attempt to renounce his citizenship.
So let's find out. As of the latest data I've seen, Congresswoman Giffords was officially listed as "wounded." So let's all hope.
I don't think I can hack this here salon.
It is events like this and threads like this that tell us about the two kinds of people who post here.
No not liberals and conservatives.
Decent people and those others who are not worth your consideration. From both sides of the aisle.
Sarah Palin:
"Don't retreat - RELOAD!"
Fuck you too, Sarah, you sick fuck.
Barack Obama:
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl.
Note, your faux outrage is pathetic.
Just pathetic.
This is a horrible crime. I won't assume what the motives are until I hear some reports from the police on this. But this is an evil act, regardless of what the motives were.
However, I will say that people like Florida, and anyone who cheers him/her/it on, are complete trash and worthy of scorn and contempt, whether he/she/it believes what he/she/it is saying or is just being a troll.
AL, Are you one of the perverts who call for the rape of Palin?
I'm with Roger...out of here until there are some facts known...
Prayers for ALL the victims and families. So sad.
Someone was apprehended
"There's nothing wrong with this thread that losing three commenters wouldn't solve."
Barack Obama encouraged this type of violence. YOu don't want to hear that.
We get that.
But he has a public record of eliminationist rhetoric.
Obama encouraged Latino voters to punish their enemies - who he defined as Americans against illegal alien amnesty.
"We're gonna punish our enemies and we're gonna reward our friends who stand with us." - Barack Obama
This violent rhetoric has consequences. People feel they are being made to be enemies by their own president and they're striking back.
This violent eliminationist rhetoric starts at the top. The buck has to stop somewhere.
Sarah Palin drew crosshairs on her
Sarah Searchlight and her psychotic followers, including Nugent the narc, should be held accountable for this. This will backfire on the teabuggers as well (assuming the perp is another pro-NRA, slack-jawed racist yokel, as appears to be the case).
Florida is a moby.
It says on the latest story from the AP that an aide was killed, but she is in surgery????
Her husband, Capt Mark Kelly, USN, is an astronaut and is scheduled to command the last shuttle flight in April. God bless him and the rest of her family.
This will backfire on the teabuggers as well
Oh stop.
You can't come to grips with the fact that your idiotic ideas are not popular.
Your wet dream of this having something to do with the tea party is coming true.
"Florida is a moby."
A transparent one, at that.
Political motivation is the most likely explanation. Someone of the right motivated by the people in our body politic running around with guns at political events and urging people to take "Second Amendment remedies" and reload are most likely.
Of course it could be something else that motivated the gunman. It is not likely.
Will conservatives finally stop flirting with violence? We've had a series of killings now. Cut it out. Speak against the violence-invoking language. Stop making excuses.
I don't think Florida is a Moby. I think he (and AlphaLiberal, and J, and Alex) are just douchebags.
Screw the thread. Time to spend time with family.
Meant to say "is not coming true"
Watching you leftists immediately think of this in terms of your political agenda is appalling.
I've read she and her staff had just set up a table outside the grocery store to talk to people as they came in and out. Just like the girl and boy scouts do around here, selling cookies and whatnot. Seems like she didn't have any security at all. What I read says the guy came out of the store and walked up and blasted her first then everyone around the table.
That could happen any time around here, we have people with tables set up outside the grocer all the time. What a shame. I'll pray for her when I go to reconciliation this afternoon.
Will conservatives finally stop flirting with violence?
Wake me up when "conservatives" make an assassination movie about the president (like a liberal did about GW) or openly wish for the Vice President's death (like thousands of leftist did as noted on the DU & Kos Web sites).
Note, you're a silly, ignorant hypocrite and despicable.
Latest:
Looking for a "second suspect." Not sure if there is one, but 19 people were shot. How does one person do this?
Someone "dropped a gun" at a similar event she have at the same place over a year ago.
The people who are trying to score their points do the blog, and the Congresswoman, and whatever cause they might espouse, no good.
Nobody wins in this sort of thing and, if it's correct that about a dozen were shot, it would appear the Congresswoman alone was not the object of the shooter's ire. Until we know about motivations, any speculation may come back to bite several people here - and none of us should forget who - on any side - only cared about making political hay.
Considering a lot of the people shot may not have had anything to do with the Congresswoman, a little restraint out of respect for them seems in order.
I'm bookmarking this thread for future reference.
I'm bookmarking this thread for future reference.
Perhaps capturing it would work better (not that I expect the Professor to delete it, but ...)
They are saying on Fox that someone in the crowd shot back at the gunman.
This is surreal.
Still reporting she is in "grave condition"
Just heard that someone in the crowd shot back at the attacker! Not verified, but I'd say possibly unprecedented in assassination attempts.
"Looking for a "second suspect." Not sure if there is one, but 19 people were shot. How does one person do this?"
Apparently 15-20 shots were fired. Police fired at the suspect who was unharmed. Where did all the police bullets go?
"Political motivation is the most likely explanation."
Agreed.
The Congresswoman was one of only two who voted against Nancy Pelosi. Looks like that wasn't such a good move. Looks like maybe somebody took issue with that vote.
Or maybe the Latinos are going after their enemies ... like Obama encouraged them to do. Seeing as how she campaigned against open borders.
So, I agree with AlphaLiberal. Looks like she crossed the wrong people.
Awful. I hope that the perp gets the justice he deserves, and swiftly at that.
Reports are very sketchy and you can be sure the story will change about fifty times before we find out what it was all all about. Or if we ever find out what it is about.
It takes a seriously deranged person to do something like this whether at a politial event, post office, beer distributorship or high school. Idiots of both sides will scramble for some fleeting political advantage instead of having the decency to restrain the rethoric for even a few minutes.
It can be a very sad and confusing world.
Fox News Channel is interviewing Arizona State Sen. Linda Lopez, who cited a report that Rep. Giffords has "responded to commands." Fingers crossed.
"Where did all the police bullets go?"
That's a very, very good question.
Somefeller said: I will say that people like Florida, and anyone who cheers him/her/it on, are complete trash and worthy of scorn and contempt, whether he/she/it believes what he/she/it is saying or is just being a troll.
Agreed, absolutely. I'll add that I've long thought that Florida was not a serious commenter. Moby-ism is bad enough for the dishonesty, but to use it in a circumstance like this is tremendously beyond the pale.
- Lyssa
Doesn't mean a damn thing yet, if it ever will, but DHS is running the suspect's name through their databases to see if there are any hits, including the watch list.
And some guy on Fox is saying that many shots indicates an "automatic" weapon. That he has no clue about guns is obvious.
Oh, and a federal judge was shot and killed according to Fox.
"They are saying on Fox that..."
Fox has Shep in charge of the coverage. I can't think of another broadcaster who seems more authentic. Agree or disagree w/ Shep's opinions; we can all agree that Shep is the best thing at Fox.
Reporting suspect 21-22 yr old
edutcher said...Considering a lot of the people shot may not have had anything to do with the Congresswoman, a little restraint out of respect for them seems in order.
Maybe so, however, several of Representative Gifford's staff were also hit by gunfire, and I surmise that more than one did not survive. Attacking her and her staff might have been the motive.
So far 6 reported dead. Is this a game changer? Will the public's revulsion to it bring some sobriety -- briefly at least -- to our national politics? If this board is any indication...
"I'll add that I've long thought that Florida was not a serious commenter."
Really?
What's not serious about pointing out how Barack Obama foments political violence in America with his heated eliminationist rhetoric?
Is that out of bounds? When our President urges Americans to "get in their faces" and "punch back twice as hard" and "punish your enemies" he foments political violence.
When Democrats bring union thugs to intimidate and beat people at town hall events ... don't you think we should discuss the ramifications such violence has on the body politic?
Is that not serious?
Engage the issues and avoid personal attacks. It's personal attacks and bullying of your kind that breeds this sort of violence.
re 2: 20:
as I said to some of the other teabuggers around here, Jay-boy--one, Im not a demo (nor a GOPer) and two, step in the ring, ya piece of seditionist white trash scheisse
Reporting suspect 21-22 yr old
Hell of shooter, particularly for someone that young. I sure hope that they can get some good informmation from him on how he got to this place.
So far 6 reported dead. Is this a game changer? Will the public's revulsion to it bring some sobriety -- briefly at least -- to our national politics? If this board is any indication...
You mean, the failure of some of us to automatically assume that the shooting was obviously and irrevocably the result of right-wing politics is part of that supposed lack of sobriety?
Yes, I weep for people who wait for all the facts to come in before rushing to judgment.
Reporting suspect 21-22 yr old
Hell of shooter, particularly for someone that young.
Not if he were military ... or a militant.
AP has identified the shooter as Jared Laughner.
Florida said...
"Political motivation is the most likely explanation."
Agreed.
Absolute nonsense. This could be some creep looking for his 15 minutes or somebody wanting a mass of bodies for some other reason (e.g., McDonald's in SD 20 - 30 years ago).
Speculation is just that and, for now, irresponsible.
Prayers for Congresswoman Giffords. Her politics doesn't matter; she does.
Those who are busy finger pointing and blaming this that and the other, usually Left wingers, ought to just sit down and shut up until the full events are sorted out. By spouting off, all you all are doing is whipping up frenzy on the Left that will result in the death of some innocent. May God forgive you all for this.
No Jared Laughner on Facebook in case anyone was wondering . . .
Whatever the motive, the shooting involved a member of Congress doing her job, going among her fellow citizens. That alone gives it political ramifications.
"...You mean, the failure of some of us to automatically assume that the shooting was obviously and irrevocably the result of right-wing politics is part of that supposed lack of sobriety?"
we're taking notes on the AA regz, is what some of us are doing. Evidence, as they call it up at Althouse's, er, soon-to-be former place of employment ( :] ). And maybe, like just maybe the Feds will be coming to get yr unregistered gats, you sad pedazos de mierda. Best to flush yr HDs as well, and the Nugent posters
"I weep for people who wait for all the facts to come in before rushing to judgment."
Never let a good crisis go to waste. Isn't that the Democrat Party motto?
Wasn't AlphaLiberal (a Democrat Party employee) right out of the gate blaming Sarah Palin for this shooting?
AlphaLiberal: "She was one of the House Democrats in Sarah Palin's 'target' ad, with the crosshairs placed on a map."
Democrats will use this event to paint Sarah Palin as a dangerous kook. It's already begun. Andrew Sullivan has already suggested Palin is responsible for this shooting. The talking points are already being distributed.
They will not let this crisis go to waste.
Jared Laughner, 22 year old white male.
Mentioned on the news that there's some talk he could be an Afghan War vet- that would certainly explain the gun skills.
Awful, awful stuff.
Those who are busy finger pointing and blaming this that and the other, usually Left wingers, ought to just sit down and shut up until the full events are sorted out. By spouting off, all you all are doing is whipping up frenzy on the Left that will result in the death of some innocent. May God forgive you all for this.
It's totally normal to speculate on the motives of a killer. After the Oklahoma CIty bombing, it was immediately assumed to be an act of an Islamic Terrorist.
"we're taking notes on the AA regz"
Uh oh.
They backtracin' us.
Live info from UMC upcoming
Doctor is optimistic about Gifford's condition and for a recovery, but won't define what level of recovery. Child is the one fatality at the hospital.
FOX is now reporting that Giffords is alive and in surgery and also that one victim who has died is Chief United States District Judge John Roll.
"Jared Laughner, 22 year old white male."
AP: ... officials who provided his name to the AP spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release it publicly.
Obama administration officials are already compromising the investigation by releasing facts to favored reporters without authorization.
I'm sure that if it was a Republican Congresswoman, like say Bachmann, who was shot at a public appearance, all these people here would still be saying "We can't speculate that it was a lefty......no way will we do that." Yeah...right.
Alpha is going overboard as usual with his bullshit, but it is not "mere speculation" to say that it was most likely a right-winger in this case. It is simply the most-likely scenario. Certainly, it is more than possible that there is no political motivation, or that it was a lefty. But at this point, it is obvious that the right-wing shooter is the most likely culprit. Just as when we hear about a bomb attempt on an airplane, countless commentators on this site will start saying things like "Oh, I'm sure he was a Christian....Can't be a Muslim, right?" "I'm guessing his name is....Mohammed" before we have any details. Is it guaranteed that the bomber was a Muslim terrorist? No, but it is the most likely scenario.
And no, that does not mean all right-wingers are to blame. But we all know that there are way too many nutjobs out there, and continuing to use the violent rhetoric that we've heard from the right over the past few years - ("People are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out." Quoting Jefferson's "Tree of Liberty," "Don't retreat, reload!", the Left are all "traitors," Palin's crosshairs on the map, and countless others)
- is just foolish and irresponsible.
You can say that you think the Left's ideas are horrible and damaging to this country without all the violent bullshit. The only thing the violent bullshit will accomplish is riling up the mentally unstable, whether on the Left or Right.
Wishing and hoping that she, and all the other wounded people still fighting, can somehow make it through all of this alright.
surgery is complete according to a doctor spokesman. He said he is hopeful for her recovery. Only confirmed death at the med ctr was a child.
Speaking of cross-hairs, IIRC either GQ or Esquire had an article about conservative talkers a few years ago with cross-hairs superimposed over a individual pictures each of Laura Ingram and others..
"After the Oklahoma CIty bombing, it was immediately assumed to be an act of an Islamic Terrorist."
Really, woof? I don't remember anything of the sort. But since there really wasn't much of a world wide web at that time, and certainly no blogosphere, we can't go back to verify that. From what I remember, it was a possibility, but most news stories I saw on the news speculated anti-government people, since they chose a federal building which contained a local office the IRS.
In fact, I can't think of any attack on US soil of any kind at any time that was widely assumed to be an act of islamic terrorism. In fact, most "news" agencies bend over backwards to try and deny the possibility until it becomes clear they cannot ignore it any longer (Times Sq, Richard Reid, WTC 1, WTC 2, ILAL counter at LAX, etc)
Alpha is going overboard as usual with his bullshit, but it is not 'mere speculation' to say that it was most likely a right-winger in this case. It is simply the most-likely scenario.
In the absence of facts, it is mere speculation.
And what good, really, is a "most-likely scenario"? How does it get you any closer to the truth? A healthy skepticism keeps one from rushing to embrace a most-likely scenario until the facts are in.
That is good news if the congresswoman has survived. We should keep her in our prayers. As well as those who died at the hands of this deranged gunman.
There are some reports that a federal judge was killed. It will take a lot more time to find out what was the motive for these heinous acts of murder.
"Yes, I weep for people who wait for all the facts to come in before rushing to judgment."
It could be someone associated w/ an anti-Jew group.
Lots of those folks (including Muslim terrorists) have done a lot more than Palin's crosshair targeting and reload rhetoric. And, how could Palin's jabber motivate a non-nut? I'd assume that this murderer had a lot more going on than some politician's quips.
Even so, it'd probably be best for politicians to avoid the Palin-type imagery because it's in poor taste, even though it's impossible to imagine that these quips could influence anybody.
No, I take my post, above, back. Upon further reflection I believe the article heading had a picture of a rat (implying conservative talkers were vermin) with a cross-hair over it, (the rat) not the talkers as such themselves.
YouTube Manifesto:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/f/0/3L1lsLU-kUw
" ... Afghan War vet ... "
You mean one of Obama's killing machines, right?
For all we know now, Judge Roll was the target, and not necessarily Giffords. But don't let that stop those from trying to make political hay out of it.
@J: J, are you like a hipster? Like a fixie riding hipster? Because you appear to be one irony slinging pabst blue ribbon drinking smoking typing ball of cool. do you like live in a big city where people look at you and go...cool? Would you like to move to one if you had the jack?
Judge Roll was the target, and not necessarily Giffords. But don't let that stop those from trying to make political hay out of it.
Not that I support those trying to make political hay out of it, but, if he was, would that really change things?
Only if it were a personal issue, as in the judge had ruled against him on a specific issue. Otherwise, it would be just as political.
Mr Buddwing said:
"And what good, really, is a "most-likely scenario"? How does it get you any closer to the truth? A healthy skepticism keeps one from rushing to embrace a most-likely scenario until the facts are in."
My point is that many of the same people here who are preaching patience and care before we speculate in any way, are the same people who will jump on the speculation bandwagon whenever it's a crime where a Lefty or a Muslim terrorist scumbag is the most likely culprit.
Waiting instead of speculating is usually a good thing. But only doing so when it's your side that potentially is the culprit, while readily speculating away when it's the other side, is a joke. And the same people who do this are now acting superior to those on the Left who are doing the exact same thing the commentators here have done many times in the past concerning crimes that look to be the result of Leftist idiots or Muslim terrorist shits.
The truth is this: Alpha and some others here are being insensitive assholes and are jumping the gun on the speculation. The majority of the people here who are crying about them being insensitive assholes are just as big assholes who have done the exact same things on many comment threads in the past when it wasn't the Right who were the target of the speculation.
My point is that the hypocrisy is thick in this comment thread.
OK, James, I take your point. I flatter myself that I'm a person who doesn't treat suspicions as conclusions, and you're right to call out people who do.
Jared Lee Loughner's Youtube video . . .
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10
The shooter sounds like he belongs to the Methamphetamine Party.
The apparent shooter's middle name is "Lee."
He was an apparent nut--a "conscience dreamer."
What the hell is a conscience dreamer?
re 3:17
Not quite.
IM yr worst f-ng nightmare, Mikhael Teabugger.
Some DailyKos for AL to read: My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!
The diary has disappeared from the site. The right thing to do, IMHO.
Facebook: Killer was fond of Obama
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jared-Laughner/100001952074770
"The diary has disappeared from the site. The right thing to do, IMHO."
Yeah, gotta get all that damning lefty violent rhetoric down the memory hole - and quick!
Giffords is a friend of mine and I am glad that she has made it through surgery.
Praying for those who have died, reportedly including U.S. Judge John Roll and also a 9 year old child.
Nobody is crying about anything jack. You will be known by your opinions and your behavior. Own it.
Because you have shown what you are all about as have many others commenting here.
To ask to wait for even a couple of hours for more facts is not hypocrisy. Just as it is not hypocrisy to call for both sides to tone it down a tad until the facts come out. It is just common sense.
Which is in short supply these days.
If that is indeed the shooter's youtube channel then it is looking like the crazy theory is the most likely.
A list of his favorite books from the site:
Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.
He also had a few manifesto type videos and one of him burning the flag.
"What the hell is a conscience dreamer?"
Sort of like a lightworker.
Sigh, the guy appears to be bat shit crazy, but hopefully not legally so because if anyone needs the death penalty he does. With all the fair trial caveats of course . . .
Favorite Books: The Communist Manifesto
No surprise there.
I know that some people hate speculating, but I can't help it, I find it facinating, and I'm not trying to score any political points, so here it goes:
Rep. Giffords is a blue dog and called for border control. However, the YouTube channel reports indicate complaints about people who can't speak English (implying, of course, that he was anti-illegals).
Interesting, very interesting.
......
Hmmm, OK, Shep Smith is reading some more of his statements, and they don't sound like they are related to English at all; they are more about literacy and people being "illiterate." Hmmm.
I was thinking vet seemed most likely, based on age, but I would expect they would have found record of it by now. But if he was just crazy, then did he just get lucky with that many shots?
Related question: If you were planning a terror attack, what would stop you from planting a number of crazy things on the net pointing in any and all sorts of directions that you might want people to think? It would be a brilliant way to confuse and distract your targets, and to cause in-fighting and blame.
....
OK, Shep Smith just read some more, about the government controling our minds with grammar. ??? Wow. He also described himself as a "military recruit", but Mr. Smith said that they couldn't get any confirmation of military ties.
"... if anyone needs the death penalty he does."
We do not kill mentally ill people in the United States. That's inhumane.
Bat Shit Crazy.
Facebook: Killer was fond of Obama
Beware of possible hoaxes.
Its Loughtner with an 'o'. Some have turned up some of his writings and let me tell you, he ain't no tea-partier, quite the opposite. Called america a "Teroorist Nation". Look for this story to quickly lose media intrest now.
Prayers for Rep Giffords and the other victims.
I think some of you on this board need to apologise so you can re-join the human race.
"We do not kill mentally ill people in the United States. That's inhumane."
Who said he was mentally ill? He's a loon and we kill loons all the time.
James said: The majority of the people here who are crying about them being insensitive assholes are just as big assholes who have done the exact same things on many comment threads in the past when it wasn't the Right who were the target of the speculation.
Oh, please, do name specific incidents and names. Otherwise, you're just a liar.
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