November 18, 2010

How is it a crime to lie to a woman and thereby obtain her consent to have her breasts touched?

I don't understand this:
Police in Idaho have arrested a woman who impersonated a plastic surgeon so she could carry out breast exams to random strangers....

The victims said they believed [Kristina] Ross because she used medical vocabulary.

She said Ross even gave them a phone number to an actual plastic surgeon's office in order for them to make follow-up appointments.
Ross is charged with a felony — "practising medicine without a licence." Oh, blech, it's the Daily Mail. Why do I keep reading that lurid trash! The charge is practicing medicine without a license. Oh, what bullshit. She wasn't practicing medicine. She was lying to ladies in a bar.

The Daily Mail also makes a big deal out of the fact that Ross's "gender category" is "male to female."

47 comments:

Original Mike said...

If lying to ladies in a bar is a crime, a whole lot of us are going to jail (though in my case, the statue of limitations has run out).

Fred4Pres said...

She is a brilliant woman to think that up. I wish I could have seen her in action...

Oh yeah. Touching boobies on false pretense is wrong. Sort of.

This is like the Palestinian guy who got sentenaced to rape for pretending to be Israeli. That is just not fair. Lying for sex (other than hiding STDs) is generally a foreseeable risk, especially in a bar.

Fred4Pres said...

Lying about STDs is a foreseeable risk too in a bar, but I could see the state taking action on that.

Clyde said...

Sounds like Ms. Ross has a fine career ahead of her at the TSA, where not only could she grope the breasts of random strangers, but get the opportunity to feel up their junk as well.

"America! What a country!"

Trooper York said...

Has anyone seen Titus?

The Crack Emcee said...

You just refuse to see fraud for what it is:

A crime.

I did a whole day's worth of posts on fraud, yesterday, because of you. Damn it, get with the program and protect your fellow citizens.

former law student said...

Sexual touching (the boobs) without effective consent (if the strangers knew she was not a plastic surgeon they never would have let her.)

I know we're not supposed to look to foreign court decisions, but this summer an Israeli Arab who supposedly lied* to an Israeli Jewish woman thereby obtaining her consent to sex, was convicted of the crime of "rape-by-deception."

*The lie was that he had represented himself as Jewish.

Sabbar Kashur, 30, was found guilty this week of “rape by deception” by the Israeli court and sentenced to 18 months in jail.
According to the complaint filed by the woman, the two met in a Jerusalem street in 2008 and had sex that day.

According to the BBC, when she discovered he was not Jewish, but an Arab, she went to the police.


The judge explained his ruling:

If she had not thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious relationship, she would not have co-operated. The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls.

Pogo said...

The gubmint lies to men and women all the time in order to obtain consent.


Thank you, sir! May I have another?

E.M. Davis said...

You should hear what Mark Twain said about her.

Pastafarian said...

I agree with Crack: Fraud was the first thing I thought of. It isn't for monetary gain, but I guess he/she gained something here -- copping a feel.

Is it then also fraud, however, if you were to pretend to be more wealthy or more well-endowed than you actually are in order to cop the same feel?

Maybe. Didn't Rene Zellweger cite fraud as the reason from her divorce from that rather obviously gay (not that there's anything wrong with that) bald little hillbilly that she was married to for five minutes?

Hoosier Daddy said...

The victims said they believed [Kristina] Ross because she used medical vocabulary.

How stupid can you be?

The Crack Emcee said...

BTW - what have you got against The Daily Mail? I can't stand their emphasis on who's lost weight, or got knobby knees, but otherwise, can't you enjoy a good tabloid for what it is? Hell, I'd rather read it than the NYT.

Trooper York said...

There was this dude in the 1980's who used to go around with a camera and asked women to show their breasts. And thousands of them did!

I forget his name though. I want to say Curious George but that might be a cartoon character or something.

The Crack Emcee said...

Hoosier Daddy,

The victims said they believed [Kristina] Ross because she used medical vocabulary.

How stupid can you be?


As stupid as the average NewAger.

The Crack Emcee said...

Troop,

Dave Chappelle had a good gig going, too.

Touching boobs doesn't require fraud, just imagination.

Trooper York said...

Well in the eighties all you needed was an eight ball.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

Well, we all don't have game like the Crack Emcee.

William said...

@Trooper: I think the guy's name was Ugly George. There were some women who showed their breasts, but the vast majority said no and said it in a very hostile way. Plus the camera he carried looked like it weighed a ton. That poor man went through a lot of effort and pain in order to gaze upon a few breasts......In examining the pathologies involved, I always wondered about him, the insecure women who acquiesced, and, of course, myself for watching such a dumb show.

The Crack Emcee said...

Charlie Rangel's begging for "a drop of fairness and mercy".

You gotta love the guy.

Trooper York said...

That's it William. I remember I met him one time at the Robin Byrd show but I didn't pay any attention to him at the time for obvious reasons.

Fernandinande said...

"Man allegedly poses as female plastic surgeon to give 'breast exams'"

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/300384

She wasn't practicing medicine.

The charge is a side-effect of the medical industry's very successful rent-seeking.

traditionalguy said...

Obviously she wanted it. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. Think of this Pretend Doctor's new career she can have at TSA as a Pretend Protector of the public. They always tell youngsters to find a career that they really like doing, and it will never seem like work to them.

Geoff Matthews said...

Not entirely new, and not limited to men who went through a sex-change.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/4106/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/707719/posts

And, a funny commercial.

http://aonetube.pseudotube.com/banned_commercials___canadian_breast_exam___very_funny.mpg_X185962.html

edutcher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
edutcher said...

OK, this is a guy, presumably who liked other guys - or thought he did, who wanted to be a girl, so he had everything snipped, but inside he still thinks a guy when it comes to girls?

Man, even Titus couldn't explain that one.

Trooper York said...

There was this dude in the 1980's who used to go around with a camera and asked women to show their breasts. And thousands of them did!

I forget his name though. I want to say Curious George but that might be a cartoon character or something.


Right about George being a cartoon, but the guy you're thinking of is probably Allen Funt of Candid Camera fame.

tim maguire said...

Reminds me of a sign I saw on a fence in Manhattan shortly after I moved here in early 1996:

Free Breast Exams
Corner of 42nd and Lex
Ask for Vinnie

Matthias said...

Is it a crime for a woman to lie to a guy and tell him she is on birth control when she isn't? Is that "rape-by-deception"?

I'm really asking. I'm looking at the parallels and wondering where the distinction lies.

Trooper York said...

"edutcher said....
Right about George being a cartoon, but the guy you're thinking of is probably Allen Funt of Candid Camera fame"

Actually William had it right. His name was Ugly George.

He was well known back in the day and his work was on Manhattan Cable Public Access.

chuckR said...

edutcher

simple

(s)he eventually realized (s)he was lesbian who had been trapped in a man's body

you need some type of 2D matrix to sort this stuff out

Fred4Pres said...

Fraud can be a crime, but more often than not it is treated as a tort.

And coping a boob fraudulently is worng but not exactly a felony. Any lying to get sex is wrong, but not rape.

Juba Doobai! said...

TSA employee working overtime?

c3 said...

Ross's "gender category" is "male to female."

Sound like he/she is making a U-turn

The Crack Emcee said...

Fred4Pres,

Fraud can be a crime, but more often than not it is treated as a tort.

Ahhh, so that's the problem. You hear that, Ann:

It's a fart.

peprgirl said...

They better arrest Howard Stern too, thats one of his best shticks

Oclarki said...

What's the point of reassigning ones gender from male to female if you still like chicks? There are heterosexuals on women's sofball teams too, okay.

Titus said...

Tits are fun.

Sigivald said...

Well, Idaho defines "Practicing medicine" (54-1803) as "To investigate [...] for any human disease, [...] deformity or other condition, physical or mental, by any means or instrumentality".

Examining people for plastic surgery would seem to be investigating for a human "deformity or other condition" by some means.

Further, section (c) includes merely to "hold oneself out as able to do any of the acts described", without taking any other concrete action (ie, saying you're a Real Doctor when you're not).

So if she was claiming to be a plastic surgeon and examining people with that as a pretext, it looks pretty clear-cut under Idaho law.

That she was doing it to cop cheap feels rather than to defraud or get payment for some sort of treatment doesn't appear to be relevant.

Ann Althouse said...

"BTW - what have you got against The Daily Mail?"

It keeps coercing me to read it. This should be a felony, the way it manipulates me by being so enticing.

The Crack Emcee said...

Ann,

It keeps coercing me to read it. This should be a felony, the way it manipulates me by being so enticing.

Well alright then. Same here. Every day. They're cheap but they're good.

Kinda like me.

c3 said...

It keeps coercing me to read it. This should be a felony, the way it manipulates me by being so enticing.

What did they offer,

A free breast exam?

Gwen said...

In South Korea, it is illegal for a man propose to a woman in order to convince her to have pre-marital sex and then end the relationship.

I know there was talk of repealing this law, but I'm not sure if it has happened yet.

Big Gov't Trickling Down on You said...

Why do I keep reading that lurid trash!

Why is the sky blue? Why is the ocean so deep?

The Musket said...

"The judge explained his ruling:

If she had not thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious relationship, she would not have co-operated. The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls."

And that why you need to make sure before you're having sex -- anybody can lie about almost anything on this topic. Quit jumping into bed with someone just because they say they're ok. And -- if they're lying about other parts of sex, they're lying about the STDs, too.

wv: menshes - those fools who believed what they were told in order to get them into bed.

Beldar said...

It's felony sexual assault, at least as that crime is defined in most U.S. states. The consent for the touching is invalid since it was based upon the false premise that the faker is a doctor.

Beldar said...

Meh, I may have overstated that. It may only be simple assault if the touching was only breasts, not genitalia. Compare, e.g., Texas Penal Code §§ 22.01 & 22.011.

Dr Jonathan Berman said...

Thanks for sharing with us How is it a crime to lie to a woman and thereby obtain her consent to have her breasts touched?. Dr. R. Berman is a certified cosmetic, plastic & reconstructive surgeon in Boca Raton. Find best plastic surgeon in Boca Raton & all of South Florida.