October 16, 2010

"They're All Bullies and Whores!"

Ha! Emily Bazelon and I talk about the election, the gay rights cases, the gender card, what you can say about women, Christian fundamentalism and anti-gay harassment, and all the complexity that doesn't fit into your ideological templates. Feast your eyes and ears on 28 minutes of bullies and whores:

28 comments:

Trooper York said...

"Feast your eyes and ears on 28 minutes of bullies and whores"

Cool. Which one are you?

bgates said...

I think she's the one on the right.

Though that's just how it looks to somebody looking at her next to Emily Bazelon. From her perspective, she's on the left.

Trooper York said...

Good one bgates.

Hee.

Mark said...

Ann,
Yesterday you were upset with Barry because he told a woman faculty member that she looked like a student. She did in fact look like a student, and in fact acted like a student flirt. To normal people of a certain age, being mistaken for a younger person is considered a pretty tame compliment.
Today, you advocate calling politicians (and others) "whores" -- calling a spade a spade, so to speak.
How do you reconcile these divergent points of view?

GMay said...

Ouch Mark, that's gonna leave a...mark.

I wish there were transcripts of these BHTV thingies because I can't bring myself to watch. Anybody got some highlights?

(Can I ask about highlights in a thread that involves women?)

Big Mike said...

I got all of 3 minutes into the video before I had had all of Emily Bazelon I could take.

Trooper York said...

Better watch out dude. I hear Emily has a list.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Cool. Which one are you?

One of them is a lady in red.

And I've watched enough of these divalogs to know Althouse is the bully.

deborah said...

I can't really handle the Baz.

Jason (the commenter) said...

What I've learned so far:

Althouse has a piano, and she uses the bench to hold books.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Don't give Emily Bazelon a hard time! She's behaving perfectly so far, she has Althouse laughing.

Jason (the commenter) said...

It's two people who agree on everything! Is this a date?

Mark said...

I thought Emily came across as a lightweight, but nice young woman who has some potential. She talks kind of strangely, with weird Eastern establishment affectations. For example, she says "sort of" about a million times.

There was one "highlight." Ann made some very mature and insightful observations about the motivations of Christian people who think that homosexual acts are sinful, but are sympathetic to the sinners, and cognizant of the sin in their own lives. She distinguished such people from haters. She also criticized young "bullies" who torment gay people, but suggested that they were not responsible for the suicides of those who were bullied. She said that it was dangerous to beatify the poor souls who commit suicide, as it might inspire other troubled souls to follow suit, especially if their tormentors would be caused to suffer in prison as a consequence of their suicides. A perverse incentive. Emily sensibly agreed, and has written sensible thoughts along those lines in Slate.

wv: spire. I shit you not!

yashu said...

Mark, I don't see the analogy. We expect-- should expect-- very different things from a POTUS talking to/ about a US citizen (especially in such a public forum), than from citizens talking to/ about politicians.

Of course, by now, after so many incidents much much worse than this little gaffe, I have no expectations of presidential decorum from Obama.

Mark said...

@Yashu. I was not drawing any sort of "analogy." I expect that all of us, presidents and not, will be nice, and respectful, and truthful. I expect those of us who hear such remarks will not be hypersensitive to the extent that they impinge on the rights to free expression of any of us, presidents and not.

Ann was hypersensitive yesterday, and disrespectful today.

There are no analogies involved.

traditionalguy said...

Bazelon pointed out the significant difference between seeing a woman accept her abuse, and seeing a woman push back cogently against her abuser. To me that simply says that a hard decision maker and gutsy woman is as good as a man, plus she brings in extra qualities of a woman as well. Ergo we are proud to accept and support a Palin, an Angle, a Nikki Haley, an O'Donnell, etc.. To assert that such a reaction is explained by a lust for a Fertility Goddess is tripe. That accusation only shows the serial abuser's weakness when the usual bullying of a woman fails to work anymore. And that also goes for Karl the wizard Rove's sudden stupidity disease.

Ann Althouse said...

"How do you reconcile these divergent points of view?"

I say women entering politics need to be tough and the people need to be able to speak bluntly about politicians.

Politicians need to be respectful toward the citizens who come out and ask questions.

Also, the word "whore" is a harsh way to refer to a politician on the take. It's a political issue to be discussed. Be tough and get on to the merits.

But when a politician talks to a citizen he shouldn't be subordinating her. He should stay on the substance and answer the question or he deserves to be criticized.

Ann Althouse said...

I'm all about criticizing politicians, and one of the things I criticize them for is not answering questions and another is not taking the voters seriously.

traditionalguy said...

Professor: you should pay Bazelon to feed you all of those straight lines like the pitcher in home Run derby pitches. You were hitting them out of the park tonight. Warning... danger the Ohio state guys in Madison tonight have scored twice in 9 minutes and are only down 3 points.

Mark said...

@Ann: "But when a politician talks to a citizen he shouldn't be subordinating her. He should stay on the substance and answer the question or he deserves to be criticized."

I agree. I think that the disagreement is in how you perceived his "student" comment. You saw it as an attempt to subordinate. I (and Barry, and I think most men) saw it as a nice compliment and natural human reaction to the flitatious git that she was. In fact, she was. I think it's more than a perception. You projected your insecurities on to her, and (gently enough) assaulted those of us who saw more clearly what was really going on there.

Today, you harshly told the truth about political whores (and kindly told the truth about Christians). I salute you!

chr1 said...

I too give credit to Bazelon for digging deep on the Phoebe Prince case. I may not like where she stands on it (bullying), but she doesn't go along with the narrative. It's good journalism (especially when highlighting Phoebe Prince's problems, the moral and legal questions surrounding punishing the teenagers involved, and the questionable judgment of the prosecuting attorney)

I may not agree, but that kind of journalism we need more of.

Why she submits her will to such groupthink at Slate (when such idealism can cause some of the problems she describes)...is beyond me.

It's the Christianists! The personal is political! Feminism is about abortion! Stop the bullying and make harassment laws! It's not race, it's class!

Same old s**t. Thinking for yourself doesn't often win you notice, but you do get to keep your dignity.

"forky"-Failed mascot design at the most recent food olympics.

Christy said...

One wonders if Bazelon knows any Christian Fundamentalists, or if she only knows what she sees on TV Dramas and reads in the MSM.

tomjacobs59 said...

After 23 years in juvenile court, I believe that teenagers learn from the experiences of their peers, not just from being lectured by those in authority. Consequently, “Teen Cyberbullying Investigated” was published in January, 2010.

Endorsed by Dr. Phil on April 8, 2010 ["Bullied to Death" show], “Teen Cyberbullying Investigated” presents real cases of teens in trouble over their online and cell phone activities.

Civil & criminal sanctions have been imposed on teens over their emails, blogs, text and IM messages, Facebook entries and more. TCI is interactive and promotes education & awareness so that our youth will begin to “Think B4 U Click.”

Thanks for looking at “Teen Cyberbullying Investigated” on http://www.freespirit.com [publisher] or on http://www.askthejudge.info [a free website for & about teens and the law].

Respectfully, -Judge Tom.

Penny said...

"I'm all about criticizing politicians,"

Why yes you are, Althouse! You and nearly everyone else in this country!

And now that you have mastered THAT "skill", how about you work on criticizing those with different political views in your "up close and personal" sphere of influence?

I would love to suggest a Thanksgiving/Christmas challenge to all bloggers and commenters.

Let's pretend that our family and friends are nearly the same as politicians. They enter your atmosphere, merely to be challenged with insightful questions about their views on whatever you wish to lay on the table next to the turkey. The OTHER turkey.

Bring extra gravy, cause you are going to need it to cover up that bad taste you leave behind.

Methadras said...

Jason (the commenter) said...

And I've watched enough of these divalogs to know Althouse is the bully.


Better to be a bully than to be bulled. But then again, your worldview is that of meekdom.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Methadras" But then again, your worldview is that of meekdom.

So I have a Christian worldview? I'm like Jesus and you're like Osama bin Laden?

I do love my brothers.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Althouse: ...and another is not taking the voters seriously.

Politicians don't get to pick their constituents, we get to pick them. If they think the person asking them a question is an asshole, too bad. Assholes are probably the biggest block of voters out there. If a politician can't make them happy, they have no business being in politics.

God Of Bacon said...

Where does Emily Bazelon fit into this social structure?

http://columbine101.blogspot.com/2009/01/columbine-101-lesson-one-real-world.html