August 19, 2010

Americans who believe Obama is a Christian: 34%.

Americans who believe Obama is a Muslim: 20%.
More than a third of conservative Republicans now say Obama is a Muslim, nearly double the percentage saying so early last year. Independents, too, are now more apt to see the president as a Muslim: Among independents, 18 percent say he is a Muslim, up eight percentage points.
So the less popular Obama is generally, the more likely he is to be perceived as a Muslim? Is this fair to Obama? Is this fair to Muslims?

The linked WaPo article tags on this final paragraph:
In the Time poll, 25 percent say most Muslims in the United States are not patriotic Americans. But the survey also indicates that the public's opposition to the center may be more complicated than just anti-Muslim sentiment. Fifty-five percent said they would accept a Muslim community center and place of worship two blocks from their own home.
May be more complicated! Good lord! The Washington Post has a low opinion of Americans!

233 comments:

1 – 200 of 233   Newer›   Newest»
Expat(ish) said...

Well, the WaPo has a poor opinion of Americans who don't work at the WaPo or the NYT or the White House, anyway.

-XC

shoutingthomas said...

Well, Obama has characterized Christians as bitter clingers.

He's had plenty more nice things to say about Muslims than Christians.

So, 2 plus 2 equals 4. Right?

HDHouse said...

The drumbeat on "Obama is a Muslim" has been going on from the right for months. After a while it confuses everyone and that is the case here. It is the same tactic used by the birthers and currently in the great mosque strawdog.

Big Mike said...

Good lord! The Washington Post has a low opinion of Americans!

All of you liberals do.

AJ Lynch said...

The poll results say 1 in 5 Americans & almost 1 in 5 independents believe the president is a Muslim but the story naturally focuses on those stupid, uninformed Republicans and conservatives. The story should have concluded that the Dems and Obama are so screwed.

Joe said...


It is the same tactic used by the birthers and currently in the great mosque strawdog.

Really because i ahven't heard ANYONE claim Obama is Muslim in the Hamosque Contreversy...

Please give us names, times, dates, and your source, HD

LarsPorsena said...

"The drumbeat on "Obama is a Muslim" has been going on from the right for months.."

What's wrong with being a Muslim? A noble religion of peace offering brotherhood and enlightenment to all?

Why should you worry about this?

It's no more important than misidentifying Obama as a Baptist instead of a Methodist.

El Pollo Real said...

Good lord! The Washington Post has a low opinion of Americans!

That's news? Seriously?

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I wouldn't be OK with any community center/house of worship 2 blocks from my house, but I live in the 'burbs, and there's nothing like that that close. I wouldn't object to a Muslim one as close as any other house of worship, although I'd wonder who they were trying to reach (given there are very few Muslims around).

I know a lot of people who really don't like Obama, and I know a lot of people who don't think he's a (sincere) Christian. I don't know anyone who thinks he's a closet Muslim. I realize that's falacious reasoning, but it's enough to make me skeptical of even these numbers.

bagoh20 said...

Let's just ask him. I'm sure he can find a way to say he is a both in 30,000 words or less. Beside we could all use the lecture.

Big Mike said...

But still, before I accept what the Post had to say, I'd like to know how the questions on their survey instrument were phrased -- and whether they used the same polling outfit as Daily Kos used to "prove" that a significant fraction of Republicans are birthers.

The Post doesn't get that the main thing it had to sell was credibility. And it threw that away on Obama's election and their subsequent efforts to turn their paper into an outlet for Democrat propaganda.

Salamandyr said...

I don't think Obama is particularly religious at all. It would get in the way of his self-absorption.

Jim said...

And once again it should be pointed out that the WaPo, NYT only ever talk about "conspiracy theories" when it has the potential to hurt Republicans.

The dearth of stories on what percentage of Americans are "Truthers" - and to which political party they primarily belong - is telling. As is the fact that their own columnists often engaged in similar conspiracy mongering (We invaded Iraq because of Cheney's Haliburton connections. George Bush's connections to the oil industry took us to war so that American oil companies could monopolize Iraqi oil fields., George Bush was selected not elected. etc.)

So, quite frankly, this gets a big yawn from me. Maybe if the Democrats hadn't spent *8 years* peddling every ludicrous conspiracy theory under the sun then they would have a right to complain about the "Obama is a Muslim" theory.

But since they spent *8 YEARS* attempting to whip the country into a paranoid frenzy about pretty much any and everything in a naked bid to gain political power, then I have just one thing to say:

You reap what you sow, Democrats.

ROFLMAO

chr1 said...

I think most people on the left like Magic Barry O because he's further on the Left. Tax and spend...equality for all...more government oversight of nearly every economic sector...one-worlder-ism.

WHy...this alligns perfectly with NPR's stated goals, for example.

The rest of us must wait, stress the economy, and stress the consequences of Magic Barry O's politics, and vote.

jaltcoh said...

34% might be deceptively low. It doesn't mean 66% of Americans think he's lying when he says he's a Christian. What percentage don't know or don't care?

El Pollo Real said...

Salamandyr wrote: I don't think Obama is particularly religious at all. It would get in the way of his self-absorption.

I agree (in part). I think he has the typical "they're all the same" attitude towards traditional religions and fails to appreciate any historical differences.

It may be his job as President to treat all faiths as equivalent in the eyes of the law, but in the public eye he wears his faith, socialism, proudly on his sleeve.

Martha said...

Obama has made no effort to appear to be a Christian since becoming President. He canceled the White House Prayer Breakfast. He is never seen attending Sunday church services INCLUDING skipping church on Christmas day.
(Obama and Michele went to a gym to work out this past Christmas morning--no evidence the Obamas celebrated even the present opening part of Christmas morning).

Remember when Obama said "My Muslim faith" in an interview with Stephanopoulis? George had to
prompt/correct Obama by saying " Your CHRISTIAN faith".

sarisari said...

I wonder what percentage of people think he is not religious. I've always thought attending that Chicago church and the whole "Jesus changed my life" was a means to an end.

Scott said...

I just wish Obama believed in America.

fartCloud said...

I thought he was an orthodox moron.

traditionalguy said...

I have some very intelligent Indian friends. They have been strictly committed to the Democrats who will allow entry into political clout to monied immigrant families easier than the old-money GOP will. The nomination fight in 2008 put them into a quandry. They did not like Hillary, but they knew instantly without any question that Obama was a Muslim. Their money flowed to John Edwards and that was a fiasco. It seems that Indian culture has tolerance for hundreds of gods/religious traditions. They can instantly spot a muslim from their attitude of proud superiority. The American people have seen enough to figure Obama out now.

Larry J said...

Salamandyr said...
I don't think Obama is particularly religious at all. It would get in the way of his self-absorption.


Truly believing in a religion means accepting there is a higher power than yourself. I see no evidence Obama believes that.

As for building a mosque or cultural center near my house, I wouldn't have a problem with it except perhaps if they use loudspeakers for their call to prayer. That would get annoying.

As it is, I'm agnostic and live less than a mile from the Focus on the Family campus. Less than a mile in the other direction is a mega-church that was involved in a huge scandle with the pastor as well as a shooting attack that left several people dead. Neither of those institutions bothers me in the least so why should a mosque? They're free to believe what they want and I'm free to ignore them.

Dad Bones said...

We used to pray for our presidents. Now we have one we can pray to, and ask him for money. Being a Muslim would cut into the godly action he has going for him.

ricpic said...

Americans who believe Obama is a lizard: me.

Drew said...

So the less popular Obama is generally, the more likely he is to be perceived as a Muslim?

I don't think you can draw that conclusion. Though his popularity is in free-fall, I don't believe there's a correlation. Rather, I think it's as "shoutingthomas" said above. Take the "bitter clingers" speech, add Rev. Wright's anti-American nonsense, Obama's apology tours and bowing to mideast tyrants, his weird comments about Muslims being a part of America since its inception (heck that whole speech he gave in Egypt (?) soon after his inauguration that was all "Yay! Islam!") -- and his support of Mosque in lower Manhattan is just the cherry on the top. . . . no, the results of this poll don't surprise me at all.

Scott said...

@LarryJ: I always wanted to open a gay stripper bar in Colorado Springs. Put it right at the FOF exit off of I-25. Call it "The Church of Satan" or something.

Maybe if I win the lottery... :)

David said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Scott said...

Oh Harold, go suck on a lemon.

rdkraus said...

I believe he is a con man who uses religion the same way he uses everything else, however it is advantageous to him at the moment.

Was that one of the choices?

jayne_cobb said...

Quite frankly I don't believe he's either; his ego won't allow for the possibility of something greater.


And if I recall correctly wasn't it the Clinton team that started the whole "secret muslim" thing?

David said...

First, people are fucking with the pollsters.

Second, why is assuming that he's lying about being a Christian because he's really an atheist (Althouse's position) different than thinking that he's lying because he's really a Muslim?

(For what it's worth, my position is that he's not lying.)

Comrade X said...

well, that's the downside of hiding your past. you allow people fill in the blanks for themselves.

Kensington said...

Well, he's so reflexively dishonest about so many things, why is this something he wouldn't be dishonest about, too?

So who the hell knows what he is? He says he's Christian. If it came out he was a Muslim, who'd be surprised?

Personally, I suspect he's really just an Atheist, except insofar as he thinks that he himself is God.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Wasn't there a similar percentage of Democrats who believed 9/11 was an inside job?

Kirstin said...

Obama is responsible for the confusion about his faith. Has he attended a Christian worship service since Easter? When was the last service that he attended before that?

Apparently he and Michelle must attend a worship service together or neither one will attend. He has said that they attended Trinity United Church of Christ less frequently after the birth of their first child. What about using the church nursery? Does it take two Harvard lawyers to stay home with a newborn?

jayne_cobb said...

Comrade X,

Well he did claim to be a blank slate.

BAS said...

I'm dubious regarding the statistics. What question was asked and in what way? How many people answered it? How many people hung up on them.It seems like a Kos poll to me.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
A.W. said...

Okay, so basic math here. 34% say he is christian. 20% believe he is muslim. that is 54% think they know what faith he is. So what does the other 46% think he is? jewish? atheist? Cthulhu worshipper?

You want my theory? i think the people calling him muslim actually don't give it much thought. i think they literally don't ordinarily pay much attention to a person's faith. So when asked they go, "well, his middle name is hussein and he bowed to the king of saudi arabia, so i guess he must be muslim."

I mean try this thought experiment. imagine you were told that a man was named Aaron Steinberg, and to guess what his faith was. you would guess jewish, right?. and you'd probably usually be right.

And if you met a guy named Bruce Walker, you would guess he was scottish, and thus presbyterrian. (the Scottish are almost 100% presbyterrian)

If his name was Jose Lopez you would guess catholic.

Sean McLarty? Irish thus Catholic.

Guido Calabresi? You’d guess Italian and thus catholic (and wrong, Judge Calabresi is Italian Jewish).

There is such a thing as names that are for one reason or another associated with certain faiths. For one the faith has certain first names associated with it. Christians like names from the new testament, jews from the old, and Muslims draw from the Koran. And then there is ethnicity often tracking with faith. Presbyterrianism has dominated scottland for a long time. Hispanics and Filipinos, who are both likely to have a name like Jose Lopez, are very often catholic, and so on. there are exceptions of course. if you meet a man named Piyush Amrit Jindal, you would be unlikely to guess he was Christian, but in reality Piyush, who goes by the western nickname "Bobby" and is kind of a famous guy, is a devout catholic.

So now pretend you don’t know what you know. Now imagine you met a man named named Barrack Hussein Obama and you were required to guess what religion he was with no other information. You would guess he was a muslim. And I suspect that for most Americans, it doesn’t get any further than that.

Of course I am sure they were given a “none of the above” option. But you know, most people are never know when to admit they just don’t know the answer to a question. I believe it was Socrates who said the beginning of wisdom is “I don’t know” and many people are not so wise.

Pastafarian said...

Not that it really matters much, but I'm pretty sure that Obama is an agnostic.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course; other than the fact that his claiming to be a believer is dishonest and patronizing. But I doubt that this is the first agnostic president we've ever had.

He's not a Muslim, he's a dhimmi.

Lem said...

Most Americans understand what it means when they hear somebody take a Ramadan break.

They also understand when a politician has to keep quiet about something that may hurt them come election time.. like the add by candidate Paul Tsongas in the swimming pool meant to show he didn't have cancer.

kent said...

So the less popular Obama is generally

Speaking of which: New Official Kos Pollster: Obama Needs To Stay Away From Midterms, Even In Illinois.

"Hope! CHANGE!"

edutcher said...

The more removed The Zero appears to be from what the average American thinks and feels, the more this sort of thing will take hold. I note the birther thing is gaining some traction, as well.

Also, Rev Wright's church isn't most people's idea of Christian love and tolerance.

traditionalguy said...

I have some very intelligent Indian friends. They have been strictly committed to the Democrats who will allow entry into political clout to monied immigrant families easier than the old-money GOP will.

You sound as if you're living in 1910, not 2010. A lot of GOP wealth is new money and a lot of immigrant money (certainly Asian) is GOP.

John said...

My very inadequate understanding of Islamic law is that if the father is Muslim (as Obama's was) the child is automatically Muslim.

He may have renounced Islam or never even embraced it. He may (though I have doubts) be a practicing Christian. More likely he is a nominal, non-practicing Christian.

But if my understanding of Muslim law is correct, he is technically a Muslim.

I don't think he is Muslim in any practical sense, though.

John Henry

Pogo said...

Obama is 34% Christian, 20% Muslim, 73% Golden Calf, and 102% innumerate.

Trooper York said...

More and more Americans are realizing that he is in fact a great big mistake.

Moose said...

Wait - since when were we complicated? I thought we were just categories?

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

Comrade X said...

well, that's the downside of hiding your past. you allow people fill in the blanks for themselves.


This is exactly right,because Obama has steadfastly refused to let the public know anything about himself...at all (i could list, if you like) the gambit is now backfiring as the public fills in the gaps from what they see and perceive.

It ain't turning into a pretty picture either.

Delicious.

The Drill SGT said...

I don't think Obama believes in god or Allah. period. His Rev Wright period was just political opportunism.

On the other hand, his world view is more in synch with a Muslim perspective, than any other President, that BS about Jefferson, not withstanding :)

SteveR said...

I'm inclined to say yes to a pollster that asks that question, because: a) its a stupid question, b) its a leading question and c) answering yes makes HDHouse feel better about himself

Lem said...

Even his God poll numbers are low.

knox said...

First, people are fucking with the pollsters.

Agree.

If any of these stupid pollsters approached me, it would be hard for me to decide whether to say "not interested," or to have some fun giving ridiculous answers.

traditionalguy said...

IMO knowing the religion of the President acts to gives a comfort level to the citizens. We know what we can expect and we feel less threatened by the unknown. A good run down would be: The Presbyterians are cold blooded fighters. The Baptists are social animals that believe the all the scriptures they know about. The Methodists are better educated Baptists. The Lutherans are Episcopalians that rely upon Sola Fides teachings. The Episcopalians are Catholics that have refudiated the Catholic Church's chain of authority. The Catholics are believers in salvation by Church sacraments and are very merciful folks with a high educational level. The Pentacostals are looking for true spiritual leadership, and occaisionally they find it for a season. All of those have their strong points and their weak points, but they are all within the Western Tradition. But a Muslim is an unknown except for a habit of despising us for not bowing down to their 650 AD visionary prophet and conquerer who orders his followers to replace all of our Christian Traditions with him or else die trying. (full disclosure; I am PCUSA Prebyterian).

pm317 said...

Many Lefty liberals thought they could dupe the rest of the world and especially the Muslim world into thinking how great America is for having elected this faux Muslim with a Muslim name and Muslim ancestry. They congratulate themselves on their clever little trick everyday.

former law student said...

I'd say the more Obama is perceived as a Muslim the less popular he is.

After all, all Muslims are terrorists who only want to build a mosque near Ground Zero so that they can spit on our graves.

former law student said...

I wouldn't be OK with any community center/house of worship 2 blocks from my house

You'd hate where my friend lives. There's a Kingdom Hall just a half-block away. But he knew about it before he moved in.

He does say that the JWs don't hit his house any more than any others.

The Crack Emcee said...

Obama was brought to you by Oprah Winfrey. He's obviously a NewAger. As a NewAger, he can claim to be for both Christianity and Islam, disregarding the parts of each he finds disagreeable.

I find it interesting how some people understand the concept of a "spiritual battle" while others (or, in many cases, the same people) disregard it in the case of NewAgers - even as they make inroads to everything. (NewAge being the one belief system that most refuse to take seriously, or even acknowledge, as they endorse it's tenets). It's like watching a game of "Spy Vs. Spy" - with most denying there are any spies at all.

It's gone on for so long, I still can't decide if I'm surrounded by liars or fools.

Chip Ahoy said...

So the less popular Obama is generally, the more likely he is to be perceived as Muslim?

No. See post hoc ergo propter hoc.

former law student said...

well, that's the downside of hiding your past. you allow people fill in the blanks for themselves.

Funny, for a man who's written "two autobiographies by the age of 40," as his detractors claim, you'd think his past would be fully revealed.

Matt said...

20% of Americans are stupid. And most of those who fall into that category are Republican. There is no way to overlook that fact.

former law student said...

They can instantly spot a muslim from their attitude of proud superiority.

That's how I spot upper caste Hindus.

Scott M said...

Funny, for a man who's written "two autobiographies by the age of 40," as his detractors claim, you'd think his past would be fully revealed.

I take it you've never read Stephen King's "The Stand" or "Tommyknockers". Mountains of prose with a story that could have been told in a 10th of the space.

Trooper York said...

"former law student said....
After all, all Muslims are terrorists who only want to build a mosque near Ground Zero so that they can spit on our graves."

I know you think that is a big joke, but I am afraid you are exactly right. And if you think that the people behind this travesty aren't doing that then you are just fooling yourself.


Laugh all you want and call us foolish bigots but we know is going on here. As does most of America.

The Crack Emcee said...

lyssalovelyredhead,

"I know a lot of people who don't think he's a (sincere) Christian. I don't know anyone who thinks he's a closet Muslim."

bagoh20,

"I'm sure he can find a way to say he is a both in 30,000 words or less."

Salamandyr,

"I don't think Obama is particularly religious at all. It would get in the way of his self-absorption."

El Pollo Real,

"I think he has the typical 'they're all the same' attitude towards traditional religions and fails to appreciate any historical differences."

Larry J,

'Truly believing in a religion means accepting there is a higher power than yourself. I see no evidence Obama believes that."

rdkraus,

"I believe he is a con man who uses religion the same way he uses everything else, however it is advantageous to him at the moment."

If you understand NewAge, all of these answers are correct.

former law student said...

After being linked to every extreme sermon made by a man who grew up under segregation, just because he was a member of his church, how eager would you expect Obama to be to join another? The blogosphere would be fact checking the pastors' views since birth.

The only way for Obama to go to church would be to run through the phone book listings, starting with Anglican and end with United Church of Christ.

Scott M said...

After being linked to every extreme sermon made by a man who grew up under segregation, just because he was a member of his church, how eager would you expect Obama to be to join another?

That's got to be a record for the number of veiled excuses in one sentence. Wright is excusable for his demagoguery because he's a victim. Obama isn't a member of a church because he's a victim, etc, etc.

The Crack Emcee said...

And has anyone else noticed that - even with Oprah's hands-on participation in this presidency - NewAge isn't even an option?

Talking about Christianity vs. Islam is a great way to distract attention away from the obvious, eh?

And let's play another game:

With the exception of national security, name a policy of the Obama administration that goes against a tenet of NewAge.

Scott M said...

With the exception of national security, name a policy of the Obama administration that goes against a tenet of NewAge.

Begrudged increase in spending and additional personnel to the southern border?

The Drill SGT said...

former law student said...
After being linked to every extreme sermon made by a man who grew up under segregation, just because he was a member of his church, how eager would you expect Obama to be to join another


One could (I don't) excuse Wright of his racism, because of his upbringing through no fault of his own.

One can't excues Obama of selecting Wright as his Pastor and participating for years and years in that cesspool. not to mention, throwing his young children into it.

Obama made a choice... he alone is accountable for that choice

AlphaLiberal said...

Ann you sure do have a massive blind spot on this stuff. Why do more people believe that Obama is Muslim?

It's not hard to understand. Not at all.

It is because of the ceaseless propaganda campaign against him from a 24/7 "news" network, the right wing media, the timidity of mainstream journalism, the lies from the right wing hucksters like Breitbart.

I come to this web site to marvel at how delusional, uninformed and misled most American conservatives have become. We now have "partisan facts," which are not facts at all but a fantasy world that conservatives choose to live in, over reality.

I don't know that our democracy can survive, and am pretty sure the right wing would prefer it not - in favor of their "plutonomy."

The Crack Emcee said...

Scott M,

Close but no cigar:

"Begrudged" don't cut it.

wv - "concar": The Chevy Volt.

bagoh20 said...

Imagine that he never claimed to be any religion, and never attended any church. Now, where would you think his religious belief sit?

Christian would be no higher than third on my list. This is the conclusion you also come to if you think he is a dishonest American politician, which in not a matter of faith.

The Crack Emcee said...

bagoh20,

"Imagine that he never claimed to be any religion, and never attended any church. Now, where would you think his religious belief sit?"

NewAge still fits. Perfectly. Keep your eye on Oprah.

Scott M said...

We now have "partisan facts," which are not facts at all but a fantasy world that conservatives choose to live in, over reality.

Partisan facts aptly describes a good number of the liberal arguments for Obamacare.

Mr. Colby said...

I doubt that all those people who told the pollster "I believe Obama is a Muslim" really and truly believe that Obama is a Muslim. I expect that a large chunk of those people interpreted the question as "Would you like to register your disapproval of President Obama and what he stands for by telling a pollster that you think he is a Muslim" and answered in the affirmative.

Plenty of odd-appearing poll results make so much more sense when interpreted in this way.

Lem said...

Rush opened with this story today.

He points out that this is not some county clerk somewhere.. this is the president of the US that as his term of office goes on people are more confused about him.

He could barely contain his glee.

Turtledove said...

I don't think he has a religion other than leftism.

Matt said...

The Crack Emcee

Sneering at people because they are 'new age' is no better than sneering at people because they are Christian or Muslim or whatever religion someone doesn't like.

Christianity itself has many branches. Christian churches in white communities are very different than Christian churches in black communities - for instance.

And the fact is we live in a multicultural multi-ethnic world. Therefore we live in a multi-religious one as well.

So faulting people for dabbling in a little Eastern religion and a little Western religion and a little Native American religion in order to find peace or find truth is rather petty.

It doesn't necessarily speak better of someone if they are a fundamentalist with a strict interpretation of one particular religion. One could, in fact, argue fundamentalism is much more problematic.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Why do more people believe that Obama is Muslim?

Alpha, did it bother you at all regarding the number of self identified Democrats who believed Bush knew about 9/11 in advance?

Any thoughts from you on the partisan and delusional beliefs of your fellow Democrats or do you also subscribe to the same belief?

Just wondering.

Roux said...

Obama's too busy worshiping himself to be Muslim or Christian.

Scott M said...

@Matt

So faulting people for dabbling in a little Eastern religion and a little Western religion and a little Native American religion in order to find peace or find truth is rather petty.

Only if their dabbling isn't destructive. My aunt "dabbled" (ie followed it line by line) with using Dr. Spock for raising my cousin. In his 40's, he's still a mess.

Scott M said...

Obama's too busy worshiping himself to be Muslim or Christian.

Thread winner. Well crafted, sir.

Sixty Grit said...

Omongrel worships Communism almost as much as hdhouse worships blind obedience to the State.

TMink said...

I understand and accept that our President self-identifies as a Christian. I also understand he self-identifies as black when he is of mixed race. Same thing to me, a flag of convienence in both cases.

Trey

The Crack Emcee said...

Matt,

NewAge is fundamentalism.

phx said...

I agree (in part). I think he has the typical "they're all the same" attitude towards traditional religions and fails to appreciate any historical differences.

It's not that Obama would fail to appreciate the historical differences. I think he would fail to be impressed by the theological differences.

Lem said...

As a catholic Kennedy was asked what role the pope would play in his administration.

What role is Mecca playing in Obama's administration ;)

Matt said...

Scott M
Using Dr. Spock for raising my cousin. In his 40's, he's still a mess.

I was unaware Dr Spock was filed under 'New Ager'? If we are talking religion you don't have to look too hard to find Christians or Catholics who are a mess either. If we are talking adults who are a mess the exact same applies to those reared in a very strict conservative household - or what ever you consider the opposite of Dr Spock's methods.

Raising someone with Dr Spock's methods may only have something to do with someone being a mess. There are many other factors. Most agree that what makes people who they are is a combination of nature and nurture. For instance is someone has schizophrenia we know it is something in the genetics - not something that they were taught. Nature plays a big role as does life experience.

Scott M said...

I was commenting on the destructiveness, not whether or not it is newagie. Spock's version of raising a child (written before he had any, of course) was fairly destructive to his daughter, wouldn't you say?

The Crack Emcee said...

Matt,

"I was unaware Dr Spock was filed under 'New Ager'?"

Sigh. There's a lot of stuff about NewAge that aren't understood yet - starting with it's history and reach.

You do know how to work Google, don't you?

Joe said...

So faulting people for dabbling in a little Eastern religion and a little Western religion and a little Native American religion in order to find peace or find truth is rather petty.


It's perfectly Ok to fault people for adopting something that is an incoherent mish-mash of platitudes....

In believeing in many things, a little of this and a little of that, they are basically saying they believe in NOTHING...and really aren't interested in making the intellectual and spiritual journey to some form of more coherent belief system.

Instead, they have decided to adopt a poorly thought out philosophy that basically ratifies their beliefs and actions.

Being Buddhist/Muslim/Hindu/Christian is HARD. We almost always fail in our attempt and can beat ourselves up endlessly for our failures, wonder about our anomalies, our heresies and doubts...."believing" isn't easy.

phx said...

It's perfectly Ok to fault people for adopting something that is an incoherent mish-mash of platitudes....

Is it okay to fault people for believing that there is a sky god who is keeping tabs on you and who is going to throw you into an everlasting pit of hell-fire after you die for not believing in him? Or is only those who believe in a "mish mash of platitudes" that "really aren't interested in making the intellectual and spiritual journey to some form of more coherent belief system."?

c3 said...

So does knowing that 1 in 5 Americans believe our President is a Muslim lead to a high opinion of Americans?

It IS pretty sad.

(I wonder if there's been any recent polling about the Kennedy assassination? Are myths stubborn things?)

Matt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Scott M said...

@phx

...that second part. Yes.

Matt said...

Scott M

I don't know much about Dr Spock except that his methods have come to be considered controversial by some.

However, I know he did not have a daughter.
[Read <a href="http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/drspock.asp”>here</a>]

But let's be honest. Anyone who raises a child by using advice [line by line] from <i>any</i> book is not too bright.

Clyde said...

I'm sure someone has probably already said this, but I'll say it anyway: What percentage thought Obama was a socialist? A majority or just a plurality?

Jim said...

Alpha -

It is because of the ceaseless propaganda campaign against him from a 24/7 "news" network, the right wing media, the timidity of mainstream journalism, the lies from the right wing hucksters like Breitbart.

Personally, I BLAME THE NEW YORK TIMES:

But it is a mistake to conflate his African identity with his Muslim heritage. Senator Obama is half African by birth and Africans can understandably identify with him. In Islam, however, there is no such thing as a half-Muslim. Like all monotheistic religions, Islam is an exclusive faith.

As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.


And the kicker?

But of all the well-meaning desires projected on Senator Obama, the hope that he would decisively improve relations with the world’s Muslims is the least realistic.

The date of the article?

MAY 12, 2008

OUCH. So much for your LIES about how it was the "right-wing" that started the whole muslim thing.

Tell Axelrod you need new talking points. You've officially reached the expiration date on your old ones.

Jim said...

clyde -

I'm sure someone has probably already said this, but I'll say it anyway: What percentage thought Obama was a socialist? A majority or just a plurality?

The last poll I saw said that 55% view Obama as a socialist.

jr565 said...

What was the percentage of people who believed that 9/11 was an inside job?
Or the percentage of people that believed that 6 WTC was brought down by demolitions?

jr565 said...

Re: Obama being a musilm or christian. Maybe it would help Obama if he was more forthcoming with any records that proved he was born in Hawaii and if he dindn't refer to his Muslim faith before being corrected by George Stephanopolous to be his Christian faith:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGdkqfBICw

THough that is more of a sign that Obama is just an idiot rather than that he is a muslim

Joe said...

Is it okay to fault people for believing that there is a sky god who is keeping tabs on you and who is going to throw you into an everlasting pit of hell-fire after you die for not believing in him? Or is only those who believe in a "mish mash of platitudes" that "really aren't interested in making the intellectual and spiritual journey to some form of more coherent belief system."?

You don’t read well do you? Did you notice the references to Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism as well as CHRISTIANITY? And the conclusion that “belief” is hard and requires some thought? As in ANY belief, not simply Christianity? I guess you had too many bad Sunday School experiences…oh well.

But to take your point about Sky Gods and keeping tabs and ever-lasting fire…so My Sky God does keep tabs, He is a Triune God. Whoa, dood “Triune” Three Persons in One? How does that work? Well it’s a “Mystery.” OK, so now the incomprehensible is a “Mystery?” So any time we run into an anomaly are you simply going to say, a la Carlin, “It’s a Mystery?” No, not everything is a mystery, some things are, in fact, rationally knowable. Ok, what are they? How can we discern those things that are a “Mystery” from those things that are knowable? See dood/doodette “religion” requires thought and rationality…and it ain’t easy…because many questions can be asked, even by believers of one another… Now in YOUR universe believers, Christians especially, are seemingly doofusses and Know-Nothings, but that’s because you like to ignore or are ignorant of, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Loyola.

But New Age seems to want to take a little of this and a little of that, in order to have to avoid thinking about the unknowable….it’s just easier that way.

Scott M said...

@Matt

You are correct. It was his grandson. Failsnark on my part.

jimspice said...

Ann you should pose the question to your readers.

Bruce Hayden said...

I think that this is another self-inflicted wound on the part of President Obama. He may self-identify as Christian, but doesn't go through the motions of faith that most of the religious do in this country, and that we somewhat expect in a President.

This is compounded by his insistence on taking the opposite side from what most Americans take on issue after issue. He seems to reflexively take the side of the downtrodden throughout the world, and if the left has painted a group as anywhere near being a victim, he seems to automatically take their side against ours.

And, so, after showing he has no compassion with the Israelis, he backs the (non-Jewish, non-Jordanian) Palestinians, bows to the King of Saudi Arabia, and now backs the Mosque in the shadow of where the WTC used to stand before 9/11.

I think that the reality is that he really isn't Muslim, but is rather, just not one of us. Never has been, and never will. He isn't the first President, and won't be the last. I don't think that Wilson was, nor maybe Nixon or Carter. But they at least went through with the semblance of Christianity (and Carter is clearly devoutly Christian).

And I think that that is where he has made his mistake. He and his wife should have picked a (Christian) church right after coming to D.C., and then spent every Sunday in town in church there, unless they make it clear that they are "spreading the wealth around" by occasionally attending other Christian churches in the area. And, if he had done so, then his polls would probably be at least a couple of points higher, with more of the people giving him some benefit of the doubt about being one of us.

I am not sure if I buy Crack's theory about the President being a member of the Oprah Church of New Ageism (or is it the New Age Church of Oprah?) I would rather suspect that the Obamas are just not all that religious, and now that he is President, they figure that they don't need to go through the motions any more about pretending to be religious.

jr565 said...

To answer my own question:

http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll

The national survey of 1,010 adults also found that anger against the federal government is at record levels, with 54 percent saying they "personally are more angry" at the government than they used to be.

Widespread resentment and alienation toward the national government appears to be fueling a growing acceptance of conspiracy theories about the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Wow, and note all the anger at the government. We hear about all the rage from the tea partiers yet who was monitoring these crazy deranged leftists at the time or reporting about it on the new? Sounds like the lefties feel that because it was coming from the left that it simply WAS and therefore that rage was not irrational but justified. Hence the movies and artwork about killing George Bush and all the hanging of BUsh in effigy at all the rallies.

What percentage of people would characterize Bush as "The Worlds Biggest Terrorist" or Hitler?

The Crack Emcee said...

Joe,

When 80% of Americans are believers, it can't be that hard.

phx said...

Now in YOUR universe believers, Christians especially, are seemingly doofusses and Know-Nothings, but that’s because you like to ignore or are ignorant of, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Loyola.

No, in my universe believers such as Christians, Hindus, Jews, Moslems, who sneer at others for "adopting an incoherent mish mash of attitudes" and fail to see the irony are funny people

Matt said...

Joe

But New Age seems to want to take a little of this and a little of that, in order to have to avoid thinking about the unknowable ...it’s just easier that way.

I hate to tell you this but Christianity is actually designed to be the easiest of all religions to follow. You simply have to believe. That is one of the main reasons Christianity has risen to the prominence that it has over all other religions - many of which require more sacrifice to attain enlightenment.

So faulting New Agers because they want it easy is not really an argument most Christians can make.

But, anyway, why should suffering be the true test of whether a religion is legit or not? Is someone better because they whip themselves? Is someone better if they pray and fast for days at a time? I think not. I think one may make that choice and feel they are better. But it does not make it so.

Scott M said...

No, in my universe believers such as Christians, Hindus, Jews, Moslems, who sneer at others for "adopting an incoherent mish mash of attitudes" and fail to see the irony are funny people

Faith is not a rational choice. The only way your statement would be true, ie Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc seeing the irony, would be if it were a rational choice and they could reflect on it in such a manner. Since faith is not a rational choice, but rather a "gut feeling" for lack of a better way of putting it. You don't choose your faith. Your faith speaks to you. You no more choose your faith than you choose to fall in love with someone.

My point being that someone who's faith has given them the gut feeling and certainty that their faith is correct, sees no irony on a spiritual level for looking at the other religions as false. That doesn't mean we should all just genocide one another and it certainly doesn't mean we can't treat each other with respect.

On a rational, intellectual level, you can look at the tenets of your faith and say that there is no more proof than the others, but the proof in the pudding, so to speak, is the spiritual belief that faith entails.

Scott M said...

You simply have to believe.

I don't want this to devolve into a theological argument, but that is a woefully incorrect summary of Christianity and "what it takes" to be a Christian.

jr565 said...

former law student wrote:
They can instantly spot a muslim from their attitude of proud superiority.

That's how I spot upper caste Hindus.


Every time I see a cow I know it's the relative of a Hindu reincarnated. I can often tell, based on the spots on his hide, which family he was from orignally when he was still a human.
Still can't distinguish the relatives when I eat hamburger, but I'm assuming that the spiritual essense is lost when the cooking process is carried out. I do know that reincarnated Hindus taste GOOD! Especially with some bacon and pickles and some ketchup. Yum!

phx said...

That doesn't mean we should all just genocide one another and it certainly doesn't mean we can't treat each other with respect.

Scott, so you and I can treat each other with respect, even respect each other's very different spiritual path perhaps.

That's different than reserving the whole "making the intellectual and spiritual journey to some form of more coherent belief system" BS to sky god believers, as Joe does. I mean, talk about a "poorly thought out philosophy that basically ratifies their beliefs and actions." Jeepers. Can we have a little humility in addition to righteous posturing from the sky god believers, please?

Joe said...

(The Crypto-Jew, or is he?)

No, in my universe believers such as Christians, Hindus, Jews, Moslems, who sneer at others for "adopting an incoherent mish mash of attitudes" and fail to see the irony are funny people

Then you confuse “belief” and “truth”, “validity” and “truth”….I can believe something, strongly and it not be true…And something can be valid, following an internal set of guidelines and axioms, and it not be true. I argue most great religions have validity, but that their validity comes thru the application of reason and time. Hence “belief” ain’t easy.

Now New Ageism seems to be a mish-mash of incoherent platitudes….New Agers aren’t devoting themselves to sorting out what they believe and why, they’re simply picking from some mythical a la carte menu of beliefs so as to avoid having to make any choices or changes. Certainly I can fault their intellectual laziness. Siddhārtha Gautama, Loyola, Aquinas devoted their lives to trying to understand what was “real” and how to convey that reality to their followers. Self-esteem seminars and crystals just don’t compare….

@Crack
Most of us who are believers rely on our equivalent of the “Baltimore Catechism,” the fruits of someone else’s mental labour. I know I rely on the various commentaries by Rabbi’s on the Torah and Talmud…or do I? Still even applying the Catechism or the writings of David Tzvi Hoffmann can be challenging, is it better to give a “bum” money or food or merely a lecture? How can I vote for Bush or Obama, when my faith tells me that certain of their positions are immoral? Can I still be a Vikings fan if Brett Favre is their QB? You know the TOUGH questions, because the Catechism or Talmudic Commentaries may not be exactly on point, all the time.

jr565 said...

former law student wrote:
I'd say the more Obama is perceived as a Muslim the less popular he is.

After all, all Muslims are terrorists who only want to build a mosque near Ground Zero so that they can spit on our graves.


Yet in any earlier converstation you implied that Muslims were more consistent believers as they followed their koran more closely when it called for jihads than christians or jews who seem to ignore a bunch of stuff in THEIR books. So weren't you implying that Muslims were in fact extremists?

Joe said...

(The Crypto-Jew, or is he?)

Matt you are Soooooooo wrong….Oi Vey!

OK,
1) You must love your G*d with all your heart, all your mind, all you body, and all your soul; and
2) Love others as you love yourself.
Are you crazy, that’s NOT easy! That’s IMPOSSIBLE! So, is by G*d’s Grace we arrive in Heaven (Augustine), by Faith Alone (Solas Fides) or by Works? All, none, some, a mixture of all three?

And to PHX, THAT’S an example of working thru the contradictions and anomalies of your faith….something I don’t see New Agers doing much of. I can fault bad engineering when I see it, whether it’s bad Egyptian Engineering, bad Ewok engineering, or bad New Age engineering.

Scott M said...

sky god

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that God lives in the sky. You're being purposefully disrespectful of at least three major religions.

I can "respect" another person's different faith, even as I am convinced that they are incorrect, but that doesn't mean, at all, that I give it the same worth. Respect simply means tolerance. Not acceptance.

phx said...

My argument was with a clearly intolerant sky god believer. Particularly for his intolerance.

Joe said...


I mean, talk about a "poorly thought out philosophy that basically ratifies their beliefs and actions." Jeepers. Can we have a little humility in addition to righteous posturing from the sky god believers, please?


We ARE humble, dood/doodette...doesn't mean we aren't RIGHT,though...looking at my Sky God's actions and requirements would humble anyone RATIONAL human....

Matt said...

Scott M
woefully incorrect summary of Christianity

Is it? I have had a good many disussions with Christians who tell me all one has to do is accept that "Christ is your lord and savior". Period.

True, it may not define everything it means to 'be a Christian'. But these same folks tell me it is not about 'good works' or what you do in the community or how nice you are to people, or even how much you pray or go to church. Ultimately it is about believing.

The appeal of Christianity is that it traditionally does not involve as much sacrifice as other religions. Christianity does not require that one has to earn the respect or suffer for their God. I am not saying this means 'anything goes'. And I'm not making a value judgement of the belief. I'm just explaining what I have read and experienced as to what makes Christianity appealing for people. It is a lot more of a comfortable relgion than others.

AlphaLiberal said...

I see. We have here clear evidence that the attacks and lies against the President from the right wing propaganda machine are being believed.

So the response? Dig up some right wing poll from years ago about Bush foreknowledge of 9/11 and claim that Dems do the same. OK, I'll address that:

A) So what?

b) We can't see the actual question asked as it's behind a pay wall at Rasmussen (the right-leaning polling firm). So it's difficult to draw conclusions about it (I know, con's begin with conclusions and THEN turn to the data).

c) A YES answer may not infer conspiracy at all, just acknowledging Bush was warned of probable attacks from bin Laden and went off to cut wood. He took NO action. None. Zero. Zip.

So, yeah, Bush was warned, therefore he did know SOMETHING was possible/likely and must not have been as surprised as the rest of us. This is undisputable so a "yes" in that vein is not at all out of line with the clear facts.

d) See a. Ya got nuthin.

Lem notes Limbaugh's glee that he and the other right wing bloviators have met success painting Obama as a Muslim. So, he is a happy liar to see his lie live. (Also, he's a junkie).

As far as conservatives and your ethics, you guys lap up these lies and internalize and spread them. You're willing dupes. Like the right wing emails from my relatives that are wrong 98% of the time.

So, celebrate the success of your lies but know that your mendacious ways are also a tremendous liability. You will rue these tactics in time.

Michael said...

FLS: You wrote "Funny, for a man who's written "two autobiographies by the age of 40," as his detractors claim, you'd think his past would be fully revealed."

Did he not write these autobiographies ? I am not sure what you are saying here.

Joe said...

My argument was with a clearly intolerant sky god believer. Particularly for his intolerance.

How am I INTOLERANT? You confuse, as many Leftists do the words “Tolerance” and “Acceptance.” I tolerate you, I’m not asking Althouse to ban you. I’m not running some kind of “Who Is” program to find out who PHX is, and then track you down. I’m not asking Blogger or your ISP to ban you, am I? No, I’m talking with you.

You want to confuse my non-ACCEPTANCE of you with an INTOLERANCE of you. I don’t accept your viewpoint as valid or well-thought out. I reject your atheism. In short, I do not accept your PoV as valid or true. You certainly may continue to hold ill-thought out and invalid positions, and hold to your angry atheism as long as you care to. But don’t expect me to agree with you or to say your position is as well conceived as say the Buddha’s or the Torah’s.

I especially love your “intolerance” of my “intolerance.” That is SOOOOOO typical of your sort. You elevate yourselves, supposedly, above someone who disagrees with you by labeling them “intolerant” but somehow you will continue to suffer thru this unseemly “intolerance.” When you can produce a definition of “intolerance” and then EVIDENCE of my “intolerance” get back to me, otherwise just expect my laughter at this shtick.

AJ Lynch said...

Alpha:

You typically knee-jerk defend the liberal govt and its many bureaucratic agencies like you did yesterday re the FDA.

Some here knee-jerk defend whatever Obama's detractors say about him.

Why do you get so outraged with that?

Big Mike said...

I love Jim Treacher's take-down. The money quote:

"Personally, I don’t think Obama has any real religious beliefs at all, because that would entail believing in a power higher than himself."

AlphaLiberal said...

Bush knew something was afoot and probable even if he did not know when and where. They even mentioned planes in the memo.

Bin Laden determined to strike in US.

We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a ---- service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.


This memo presented to Bush on August 6, 2001, over a month before September 11, 2001. He told the agent "you covered your ass" and then went off to clear brush with his dog. He did nothing in response, in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief.

My opinion is more that he was just lazy and, also, saw warnings of al Qaeda as a Clinton/Democratic issue, therefore to be ignored. It was PROBABLY not that it was any conspiracy in alignment with bin Laden.

Joe said...

True, it may not define everything it means to 'be a Christian'. But these same folks tell me it is not about 'good works' or what you do in the community or how nice you are to people, or even how much you pray or go to church. Ultimately it is about believing.

Dood/doodette welcome to, dare I say it, New Age Christianity. They are correct, to a point. You can be a very nice atheist, do good works, help old ladies across the street, reform bums and crack addicts, be polite to all you meet…and go to H3ll. Because you didn’t believe…G*d and His Son, were very clear that belief in Them was central to Salvation. So yes, “belief” is central to one’s faith.

HOWEVER, if one “believes” one will also DISCERN….leading to reading the Gospel. And then one will begin to run into things like “Love your G*d with all your heart….” And then one must ask oneself, “Do I TRULY believe?” And if I do, what does that phrase mean to me? And from Belief flows ACTION….the being polite, being humble, doing good works, helping old ladies, working with bums or crack addicts….

IF you TRULY believe, then one’s life and actions change…Belief alone doesn’t show anything, because that’s just words…as my forebears said, “Talk is cheap, it takes money to buy whisky.” With the talk comes the whisky, and if no whisky is evidence in evidence, then one might question the talk or the belief….

Joe said...

You are a glutton for punishment aren’t you AL? We’ve been down this road before….the Memo says Bin Laden is going to attack the US, not use airliners to attack critical targets…need we go on? And if he’d acted on this memo by creating DHS and instituting shoe searches and searches of little old ladies at air ports and launched an invasion of Afghanistan, people like you would be calling him a gross-over-reactor!

Matt said...

Joe
> Are you crazy, that’s NOT easy! That’s IMPOSSIBLE! <

Are you kidding?

You think loving others as you love yourself is THAT HARD? How the heck do you define loving others? I call it respecting others, which is pretty darn easy. Leave me in peace and I’ll leave you in peace. If you need a hand I'll lend it to you. Easy. I can honestly say [and you probably won’t believe me] that I hate no one I know and no one I know hates me.

I may not be lovey dovey with my neighbors and I don’t go out of my way to offer them the food in my refrigerator or freely give them my DVD’s, CD and books but we respect each other. And who wants a neighbor [or others] hanging around looking for love all the time? It's a bit creepy, actually.

Anyway, respecting [or loving] others is not something one needs to be a Christian to do. I have a lot of great friends who are atheists and agnostics. We don't work hard to gain respect. We just do it.

Crimso said...

FWIW, I just heard some talking head on Fox News begin this story with "A new poll shows 20% of Americans think President Obama is a Muslim. He's not."

But we all know Fox uses dog whistles and code words to get out what they REALLY mean...

former law student said...

Dreams from My Father was a memoir; The Audacity of Hope was a polisci book -- how his experiences shaped his thinking and what actions needed to be taken.

Joe said...

…including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

Tell me Al, are the Twin Towers Federal Buildings? Now the Pentagon is, but it isn’t in NYC. Boy this memo is a great thing to act on.

AlphaLiberal said...

AJ, I defended the FDA? Help me with that. On what?

Oh, the Avastin issue the right wing is pushing. Yeah, that wasn't a defense of the FDA. That was me pointing out a) it's not a death panel as Palin defined death Panels and b) asking how many private insurance companies pay for the very difficult medication.

So, you seem to paint a response not in complete agreement with the latest right wing line as "knee jerk." It was actually "thoughtful."

And I don't think I mentioned the FDA (or that they determine which drugs Medicare refunds).

One thing I did not do is say "there's no problem here." I pretty much reserved judgment and raised questions given it's a new issue I've not looked into. And, that the right wing is going apeshit over the issue.

So, no, I don't think that let's anyone else off the hook for living in the Fox Noise misinformation cocoon. Fox lies and you should be better news consumers.

AlphaLiberal said...

Joe:

"Tell me Al, are the Twin Towers Federal Buildings? Now the Pentagon is, but it isn’t in NYC. Boy this memo is a great thing to act on."

I think there were federal office there. but so what? That's not my point, as you damn well know.

My point was clearly stated -- Bush was warned of SOMETHING from bind Laden and possibly including airplanes. You're just being dishonest.

Fuck conservatives.

Joe said...

I may not be lovey dovey with my neighbors and I don’t go out of my way to offer them the food in my refrigerator or freely give them my DVD’s, CD and books but we respect each other. And who wants a neighbor [or others] hanging around looking for love all the time? It's a bit creepy, actually.

So you DON’T love them as you love yourself? Or do you? Are they in abusive relationships? Do they need help with spouses, children, parents? Do you ask? Do you care?

And then there’s Darfur, what are you doing about Darfur? And interest on loans, is interest on loan’s OK or not? What about bike paths?

You confuse being polite with loving, and you confuse who is your neighbor, when your neighbors are EVERYONE, whether you know them or not. And then there’s you? Is your spouse abusive, an addict? Do you love yourself? Do you drink to excess, use pRon, use drugs, are these substitutes for dealing with the pain of your life?

Dood, you haven’t even cracked 1/10,000th of what that phrase means. ….and all your heart, mind and soul, so G*d is the starting point for all your actions and thoughts? I’m much better than you, I’ve cracked 1/9999th of what that phrase means!

TMink said...

" I have had a good many disussions with Christians who tell me all one has to do is accept that "Christ is your lord and savior".

A simple sentence, but not a simple action! Accepting Christ as Lord means being obedient to Him. A good translation of this use of the word "Lord" is Master. As in slave and master.

Accepting Christ as savior means accepting that I need a savior because I am sinful and unacceptable to God. Accepting Christ as savior means I accept Him as the Messiah, the Son of God. It means accepting that the God of Abraham is the one, true God.

So it is a short sentence, but not so simple. Or easy. Trust me.

Trey

Scott M said...

Fuck conservatives.

So why do you bother?

Joe said...

My point was clearly stated -- Bush was warned of SOMETHING from bind Laden and possibly including airplanes. You're just being dishonest.

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, AL Bush was warned of SOMETHING from Bin Laden and airplanes…well, when you put it THAT way, who can argue? So from this obviously actionable intelligence you’d have recommended to Bush:
1) Search little old ladies for bombs; and
2) Suspend all air travel in the US; and
3) Root out all Islamic students with expired Visas currently or having been enrolled in Flight Schools; and
4) Attacking Afghanistan for harbouring Bin laden;
5) Resigning, because everyone knew he “stole” the election from Gore.

Fuck conservatives.
Hard to argue with logic and evidence like that. I’ll take that as yur concession, that you have no real arguments at hand. Thank you for playing.

AllenS said...

AL,

Are you wearing a condom?

A.W. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rdkraus said...

White House says Obama is Christian, prays daily

ALAN FRAM

From Associated Press

August 19, 2010 2:21 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) — The White House insisted on Thursday that President Barack Obama is a Christian who prays daily as it looked to tamp down growing doubts among Americans about the president's religion.


Well there you go. They've never lied to us before.

AlphaLiberal said...

Just closing out some windows and I saw another example of the pathological lying from conservatives:

Karl Rove's Crossroads GPS this week detailed the "seven public policy initiatives" that will be most important for Congress next year. The group runs ads against Democrats across the country.

On the list at No. 1: "Stop the Obama tax hike time bomb scheduled to detonate on January 1, 2011."

That's not a typo. Rove's group is claiming that Obama set the timer on that so-called "bomb."


When Rove-Bush passed their tax cuts, they included a date for the tax cuts to end and the tax rates to revert to previous levels.

This is one of thousands of examples of the lies.

So if you think liberals are out of line to be irritable about such things, maybe you want to look inwards to face the problem. When you lie as a habit, people will not think well of you.

The Crack Emcee said...

Can we go back to NewAge as fundamentalism?

Seems to me that would put it on the same plain as a lot of religions. And, considering the fundamentalism of religious belief, I think Matt's comment that "faulting people for dabbling in a little Eastern religion and a little Western religion and a little Native American religion in order to find peace or find truth is rather petty" ignores the fact that supposed true followers of those religions (the ones doing all that "hard" work) don't care for such dabbling.

Doesn't seem very sensitive, or "spiritual", to selfishly, and deliberately, do something that offends those you're supposedly honoring merely for your own sense of "peace" or "truth".

But then, caring about others has never been high on the list of NewAge concerns, compared with having power over them.

A.W. said...

Alpha

You're still flogging this stupid crap?

Bin laden is determined to attack the US? Well no fucking shit. Seriously, anyone who knew anything about terrorism knew that. Hell, anyone who opened a paper when the WTC was attacked the first time knew that. Gee, how did we know that bin Laden was attacking us? Um, because he did it before and we didn’t exactly make him regret that.

Any other blindingly obvious facts you want to bring up? Next I suppose you will tell us that Bush was also told that gravity pulls downward. Really seriously, on 9/10/2001 you had no idea that bin Laden was attempting to attack the U.S.? Everyone fucking knew that. If anything the briefing was useless and represented a classic example of government waste. No one has yet to provide one single fucking quote that told us one single fucking thing that a minimally aware, minimally educated person would not have known circa August, 2001. The fact that you think this is some kind of fucking revelation speaks to the state of your knowledge, not that of Bush's.

All this is is stupid dishonesty. And beside the fucking point. You feel that 9-11 was bush's fault? Great, well, that is a wonderful argument for never electing the guy again to be president, except he can't be president again anyway. Seriously how many years will he be out of office before the left stops lying about him?

Randy said...

While serving as President, Obama has probably attended church about as often as Ronald Reagan did.

A.W. said...

> This is one of thousands of examples of the lies.

Bullshit on that. It may not have been him who set the bomb, but he has the tools to disarm it and he is choosing not to. But i love it, democrats own 2 branches of government but they are still blaming republicans for their failures or in this case, their policies. Democrats have said they hate the bush tax cuts for years. They are letting them die based on that hatred. They could save it. But its not their fault the taxes are going up? Who exactly do you think you are fooling?

Joe said...

When Rove-Bush passed their tax cuts, they included a date for the tax cuts to end and the tax rates to revert to previous levels.

Actually it involved Congress and the use of “reconciliation” to pass the tax cuts…AL, please try to be reasonably factual….oh and ARE you wearing a condom? And is it consensual with the Conservative, if not isn’t that “rape” or “sexual battery”/ Doesn’t that obviate many of the “good points” you get for be a “Caring” Progressive?


WV "vinglut" when your Danish in-laws bring too much Merlot.

k*thy said...

I can "respect" another person's different faith, even as I am convinced that they are incorrect, but that doesn't mean, at all, that I give it the same worth. Respect simply means tolerance. Not acceptance.

To me, respect implies acceptance. My accepting that someone has a different belief system is a lot less work and grief than practicing all that tolerance all the time, imho. Another’s is not incorrect, it's just different and, inherently, won't have the same worth to them as it does to me (and vise versa). I subscribe to a more agnostic theism - a faith that believes, but does not know for certain. It counterbalances my doubts. While it might be interesting for me to dabble in it as an intellectual exercise, that’s not what’s useful for me.

Matt said...

Joe

Thanks for admitting the one thing I knew you were saying from your first comment; You think you are better than everyone else.

Congrats.

But, of course, you too completely miss the point. How many people out there live according to this tenant of 'love thy neighbor' as you define? What? Say that again, please? Yes, that's right. Nobody. Including Christians. So what of it? What does it mean if no one lives purely this way? Does it mean no one is going to heaven?

CS Lewis said, quite rightly, that anyone who lived like Christ would be considered a crazy person. And so they would. But each of us can play our part and do our little bit to help others as we also try to help ourselves and our own family in this modern world we live in. We can't all be Mother Theresa. [Even Mother Theresa wasn't either].

Be realistic. I know a lot of non religious people who work in the Red Cross or give time and money or blood to charities. The world is a better place because of them. But that is not a Christian thing any more than it is a human thing. Wanting to help others is part of being human.

You also seem to think that if someone is purely committed to one relgion they are better. They are not. If people choose to believe in a 'mish mash' of religions they are not more 'crazy' or 'lazy' or 'wrong' than someone who is a hard core Evangelical. As someone who is apparently better than the rest of us you should know that.

Joe said...

My accepting that someone has a different belief system is a lot less work and grief than practicing all that tolerance all the time, imho

What “tolerance” requires almost NO effort, you refrain from acting….tolerance is LESS than “acceptance.” I accept that people are Liberal Democrats. I see how they arrive at their beliefs, I understand that at least 20% of the US is Liberal Democrat, I understand and accept that will, from time-to-time, come to power-wreaking untold damage on the US.

I do NOT however, accept Nazi’s or Marxist-Leninists…I can “understand” how they arrived at their positions. But I do NOT accept them as legitimate positions and would never accept a Nazi or Marxist-Leninist POTUS as “legitimate.”

HOWEVER, I would not recommend imprisoning or executing Nazi’s or Marxist-Leninists…that’s called “tolerance.” I am forebearing to act….acceptance would grant them something more a legitimacy to exist.

Joe said...

They are not. If people choose to believe in a 'mish mash' of religions they are not more 'crazy' or 'lazy' or 'wrong' than someone who is a hard core Evangelical.

Yes they are, Matt. They have failed to invest any effort in thinking for themselves or in reading up on their beliefs. Adopting as your core belief some pastiche of ill-thought out platitudes is the very definition of Intellectual Laziness. IF you believe something, you might want to invest some time in understanding that which you profess to believe.


As someone who is apparently better than the rest of us you should know that.

You are a humourless drone are you not…you and Althouse, you probably agreed with her about the Ewoks, I mean “Mama Grizzlies.” I obviously was making a self-deprecating remark concerning, in fact, MY UTTER UNWORTHINESS to even tie the L*rd’s Sandal. But somehow, you misinterpreted it, sorry about that.

Scott M said...

@k*thy

I get what you're saying, but consider this. I tolerate hitchikers. By tolerating, I mean I don't run them over, throw things at them, scream at them to get jobs, etc. If I saw one get injured I would do everything I would for anyone else.

What I don't do is accept them into my car for a whole host of reasons.

In that case, it requires a lot more effort to accept than to tolerate.

A.W. said...

I will say i am under no obligation to respect a person's faith, as the term implies some sort of esteem to their faith. I am allowed to think their faith is bullocks. I am allowed to express that opinion too.

Although in general I choose not to exercise those rights and tend to be polite about my religious differences. Of course regulars know where I had to deviate from that rule significantly, but it was for good reason.

But to illustrate my point about respect, is it respectful to say that Mohammed was a pedophile? Well, probably not, but it was true. He married a girl named Aisha who was 6 years old when he married her. But don’t worry, he waited to consummate the relationship… until she was 9. Don’t I have the right to say that?

Look its not a complicated syllogism. We have freedom of religion, right? So here is how it goes.

1. We have freedom of religion.
2. Freedom of religion means you have the freedom to choose your religion.
3. The right to choose anything, includes the right to make a knowing and intelligent decision.
4. In order to make a knowing and intelligent decision you must be able to learn everything related to that decision.
5. In order to learn everything about a faith, other people must be free to speak about that faith.
6. Some of the facts of many faiths are ugly and it is disrespectful to mention them.
7. Therefore freedom of religion includes the right to hear disrespectful statements about each religion.

Or to put it in stark relief, I corresponded with a former Muslim in Pakistan, who told me that learning of Mohammed and Aisha broke his faith. Whoever told him of that certainly wasn’t respecting his faith, but they were respecting his right to decide what faith he would belong to. And it made it possible for him to make a new choice.

The Crack Emcee said...

I respect everyone's faith equally.

Bwaaaa-haaa-haha-ha-ha-ha!

Yea, I'm Back: Earth Wind & Fire (And Brimstone)

Matt said...

Joe

They have failed to invest any effort in thinking for themselves or in reading up on their beliefs.

So which is it? You are saying two different things here. And note it wouldn't be faith it if required you to think for yourself. The whole idea of religion and faith is that you don't truly have to think for yourself. It's easier that way.

Adopting as your core belief some pastiche of ill-thought out platitudes is the very definition of Intellectual Laziness.

Again, Christianity itself has many different interpretations. Which ones are lazy in your view? Most likely only the ones that you don't believe in.

In general I see your point. New Agers glom on to simple platitudes. But most religions do the same. That is part of the appeal of religion to many people. But so what? As long as they are not taking up arms and killing us I see no problem with people wanting an easy path to spirituality. It makes them no less of a person. And it doesn't make someone better if they think the path must be difficult.

Skipper50 said...

Why can't this administration communicate something as simple as the President's faith, or lack thereof? Is this a subtle, complex matter? Is he or isn't he? Or is there a strategic political purpose to encouraging ambiguity?

TosaGuy said...

So why are these wackos more of a threat in the eyes of ruling class liberals to the Republic than other types of wackos?

Scott M said...

And note it wouldn't be faith it if required you to think for yourself. The whole idea of religion and faith is that you don't truly have to think for yourself. It's easier that way.

This isn't true at all, Matt. While core tenets of a religion may be arbitrary (probably are, in fact), and given that faith itself requires no rational thought, existing every day by those tenets DOES require a constant mental process and educated (in the context of the religion in question) decision-making. In other words, walking the walk. It's anything but easy. In fact, it's one of the hardest things a human can do...unless your religion happens to be hedonism, lol.

Joe said...

So which is it? You are saying two different things here. And note it wouldn't be faith it if required you to think for yourself. The whole idea of religion and faith is that you don't truly have to think for yourself. It's easier that way.

Nice try, the Blessed Buddha once said, “If you meet the Buddha in the road, Kill Him!” The Path to Enlightenment is NOT the Buddha’s path it is YOUR path! The Buddha merely showed that there was a path and that S’atori was possible…YOU must make the effort to find the Path, YOU must exercise the Eight Fold Way….

Jesus did not address slavery. The Apostles did not address slavery…it was Protestants who, believing all were the equal of G*d, who began the Modern Abolition Movement. G*d expects and requires us to THINK, to apply His Principles to our lives. Belief is NOT UNTHINKING…you are living in some anti-religious fog if you believe that, willfully blind to the work of Talmudic scholars, to the various Muslim schools of law, to the work of Augustus, and Aquinas and Loyola. You are being WILFULLY blind to religious history.



Adopting as your core belief some pastiche of ill-thought out platitudes is the very definition of Intellectual Laziness.

Again, Christianity itself has many different interpretations. Which ones are lazy in your view? Most likely only the ones that you don't believe in.


Uh one’s that say things like “All you have to do is BELIEVE to be a Christian.” I may not believe in Lutheranism or Catholicism, but I certainly can respect the intellectual firepower that created them, though.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

Randy said...

While serving as President, Obama has probably attended church about as often as Ronald Reagan did.


Maybe but R. Reagan didn't sit in Rev. Wrights church for 20 years lapping up his racist hatred, considering him his mentor, getting married there and having his children baptized there, did he?...No.

Scott M said...

While serving as President, Obama has probably attended church about as often as Ronald Reagan did.

This is a non-issue. I think it's perfectly fine for a president to keep to 1600 Penn Ave on Sundays and invite preachers/pastors/priests whatever, to come there. It would actually inconvenience the least amount of people and cost the US taxpayer the least in terms of SS coverage. Why is this an issue?

AllenS said...

The most ridiculous Sunday news footage was the two Clintons on the way into church every Sunday, with The Bill carrying his bible.

Ya, you betcha.

Randy said...

Why is this an issue? It's not an issue for me, Scott. I'm also not questioning the President's religious beliefs.

Matt said...

Joe
Do you realize you just referenced both Buddha and Christ? Is that not a mish mash of sorts?

But do you realise you are making an argument for New Age belief by saying people have to find their own path? You are admitting that there is more than one path. Indeed there is. And that path can be attained via new age methods as well as the many Christian, Buddhist or Muslim faiths.


Scott M & Joe
I respect what you are saying about the hard work that faith requires. But look, if you incorporate the work it takes to be a father, a husband, a good member of the community, etc into Christianity then, yes, being a Christian takes work and responsibility. But I hope you can understand that you do not need to be a Christian in order to be a father, a husband or a good member of the community etc. They require hard work all by themselves whether you believe in Christ, believe in the flying spaghetti monster or are an atheist.

Michael said...

Leave it to the lefties to love the single most oppressive religion in the world today. Never a discouraging word from our "progressive" friends on the topic of Islam. Lots to say about Catholic priests, wicked Mormons, judgmental Baptists, religion anywhere near the public square and on and on. Not only do they heartily support Islam but they know a very whole lot about it and its lovely tenants.

Obama's religion is Obama.

The poll is nonsense.

Scott M said...

@Matt

But I hope you can understand that you do not need to be a Christian in order to be a father, a husband or a good member of the community etc. They require hard work all by themselves whether you believe in Christ, believe in the flying spaghetti monster or are an atheist.

Granted. But "walking the walk" and trying earnestly to live up to the requirements of a religion, in my case Lutheranism, is a whole extra layer of difficulty. Can you not see that? We're talking about more than what you seem to consider the requirements of just being an all around good guy.

Joe said...

Do you realize you just referenced both Buddha and Christ? Is that not a mish mash of sorts?

Yes I realize it, we’re talking about RELIGIONS, not “my” religion…My point was to demonstrate that MOST religions do not just want a passive acceptance, but require active participation. So I have used to rather dissimilar religions to make my point.

But do you realize you are making an argument for New Age belief by saying people have to find their own path? The Buddha or the Apostles set limits on what the “True Path” is or is NOT…”We are many parts, but all one body” does not mean that you can be a Buddhist Stripper AND a Christian. The Buddha would tell you that you cannot believe in the Incarnation of Vishnu AND be Buddhist…now what part one fulfills or how one practices the Eightfold Path is up to INDIVIDUAL DISCERNMENT.

And that path can be attained via new age methods as well as the many Christian, Buddhist or Muslim faiths. And uh NO, a priori…There is No G*d but Allah, Mohamed was His Prophet.” Pretty much excludes any other path to Paradise….”We believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, ... And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, ….And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, …Amen." Also pretty much excludes any other path to Salvation…..that’s the whole point, either G*d is Allah, or YWH, “I am Who Is” or the Holy Trinity, but G*d or the Dharma, is NOT a pastiche of all of them, because they all are fairly mutually exclusive. Only really one of them can be “Right.” And ergo there is only ONE “right path”, not “right paths.”

But I hope you can understand that you do not need to be a Christian in order to be a father, a husband or a good member of the community etc.

Straw man, I don’t believe anyone has said otherwise. But Crack, and to an extent I, simply do not accept New Age “Touchie-Feeliness” as the basis of a real sustainable spiritual life.

Robert Cook said...

traditionalguy said...

"I have some very intelligent Indian friends.(snip)...they knew instantly without any question that Obama was a Muslim.(snip)...They can instantly spot a muslim from their attitude of proud superiority."

This is among the more stupid of the many many stupid comments that are posted to this blog every day and every week.

"The American people have seen enough to figure Obama out now."

Not if they think he's a socialist/communist/Muslim, they haven't.

Joe said...

This is among the more stupid of the many many stupid comments that are posted to this blog every day and every week.

And Lord knows you made enough of them yourself, to be something of an expert on stoopit statements.

Scott M said...

Not if they think he's a socialist/communist/Muslim, they haven't.

I remain agnostic on that point. I believe there are socialists and communists within his circle of advisers, however.

What I believe is that, forgetting public policy, this is one of the most amateurish administrations I've observed in my life. I was definitely in the, "okay, he won, let's see what he can do" camp. They're horribly inapt ability to control their own message and knee-jerk reaction to various things that have happened have removed any confidence that I have that they fully realize the enormity of the task they have won themselves.

AllenS said...

Go ahead, Mr. Cook, tell us what religion Obama belongs to. Be sure and provide some sort of evidence of your conviction.

Michael said...

Scott M: I echo your sentiments on this president. I believe most people had very good faith hopes that he would be up to the job. Our hapless and stupid McCain was clearly not the right man for the time, the economic time and my belief and that of a great many on this and other libertarian/conservative blogs was that we should get fully behind supporting and hoping for a successful presidency. He has been a complete disaster. In hindsight it is not surprising that a man steeped in academia and completely without business experience would prove to be out of touch with the forces that turn the economy. His lack of appreciation of or even understanding of the great middle of America is stunning

Matt said...

Joe & Scott M

I guess I am not completely understanding what you mean by active participation or difficulty.

My larger point is that all the things you [so far] are saying that requires you to be a good Christian can be applied to non believers. Perhaps you mean things specific to religious faith such as prayer or reading the Bible each day, or doing the things that are required in your religion only. [Obviously being a monk or a nun takes a lot of effort, time and sacrifice - but I don't think you are monks].

Joe
If a Muslim says Allah is the one they are no more right or wrong than a Christian who says Christ is the one. Both will defend their belief until the day they die. And some might even kill or die for that belief. Who am I to say which is correct and which is wrong? And, therefore, who am I to tell someone who believes in both that they are wrong? Sorry, but no one has a lock on faith. No one. Even though, yes, technically, one who believes must certainly feel they alone are right.

But who cares if history is on their side. Even Christianity was a young religion once upon a time. And don't fool yourself Chrisitanity borrowed from existing religions in its day.

Scott M said...

My larger point is that all the things you [so far] are saying that requires you to be a good Christian can be applied to non believers. Perhaps you mean things specific to religious faith such as prayer or reading the Bible each day, or doing the things that are required in your religion only. [Obviously being a monk or a nun takes a lot of effort, time and sacrifice - but I don't think you are monks].

I think you have a stereotypical view of what it is to be a devout Christian. If I were a cop and we were talking about law enforcement, I'd say you watch too much tv. However you came to the conclusion that being a good Christian just means being a good person, I would suggest you bone up on your knowledge of such things. Who knows where that will lead?

Michael said...

Matt: You wrote: "Who am I to say which is correct and which is wrong?"

You are a well educated, articulate person who has the gift of reason and observation. You might not be able to determine which religion is, in the end, the one true faith, but you can certainly judge for yourself which faith holds beliefs that are superior to others. Eschewing judgment in life is neither a sophisticated or desirable stance. Some cultures are better than others. Some religions more open minded than others. Some people less intelligent than others. You have the obligation to make these judgments.

k*thy said...

Fair enough, on tolerance being fair and objective, but another definition of it is to endure – and that’s what I was hearing, hence the more work. Acceptance, to me, is to let some experience or condition be without me trying to affect it. Also, I was applying to the context of a faith practice, as it was being discussed.

Scott – about the hitchhiker – I guess I would apply acceptance to say that I would probably just let them be and I’ll carry on. I keep driving, they keep hitching – not much effort that I can see.

simply do not accept New Age “Touchie-Feeliness” as the basis of a real sustainable spiritual life.

A friend of mine has a saying on his bathroom mirror, “Bill, I’ll take it from here, today. Anyway… thanks for the help. God”

Matt said...

Scott M

You're not answering the question. I'm not trying to be disrespecful or using any stereotypes. Especially since I admit there is more than one way to attain spirituality. I simply want to know what 'difficulties' are required in being a Christian that are different from being a human being. It's a tough world out there. Religion and faith are ways to contend with it.

And so I begrudge no one who simply goes to church on Sundays and never thinks about relgion or God any other day of the week. Plenty do it.

And note I am fine with you saying there is no real difference. Or it is about devout scholarship and mental discipline or something like that. My main contention is with Joe who - it seems to me - thinks following an established religion is more righteous than following a non-traditonal or a mash-up of other relgions. I think he is incorrect.

Methadras said...

Living Culture - The Cult of Personality

Look into my eyes, what do you see?
Cult of Personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I've been everything you want to be
I'm the Cult of Personality
Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I'm the Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality

Neon lights, A Nobel Price
The mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You don't have to follow me
Only you can set me free
I sell the things you need to be
I'm the smiling face on your T.V.
I'm the Cult of Personality
I exploit you still you love me

I tell you one and one makes three
I'm the Cult of Personality
Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi
I'm the Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality

Neon lights a Nobel Prize
A leader speaks, that leader dies
You don't have to follow me
Only you can set you free

You gave me fortune
You gave me fame
You me power in your God's name
I'm every person you need to be
I'm the Cult of Personality


A prophetic description of our current dear leader.

Carol said...

Matt might as well have said, like Pontius Pilate, "what is truth?" That vapid relativism has been extant at least that long. It is nothing new or modern.

K*thy wrote: "My accepting that someone has a different belief system is a lot less work and grief than practicing all that tolerance all the time, imho. Another’s is not incorrect, it's just different and, inherently, won't have the same worth to them as it does to me (and vise versa)."

Just for the record, if you don't think your beliefs are true, and another's (contradicting) beliefs are false - for everyone and in any time and place - then you believe nothing.

traditionalguy said...

I look on Obama's claim to be a Christian the same way I look on Iran's claim of Peaceful only intentions for its Nuclear reactors. The surrounding circumstantial evidence is so great that both claims are false, that a stated belief that both claims are false is rational. The statement as known fact that Barry is Christian and that Iran is not building a weapon is the laziest journalism reporting since FDR said that Doolittle's Tokyo Raid came from secret bases in Shangrila and that became the accepted fact... but only by willful fools.

Skyler said...

Hmm. Muslim father. Attended a muslim school, which they claim was not a madrassas but was nonetheless muslim. As an adult he attended Rev. Wright's "christian" church. Rev. Wright was recently muslim and converted to christianity, I suppose to get a bigger congregation. His marxist message sells better to people who don't already have to reject christianity in name.

I think the important thing is that B. Hussein may or may not be a muslim, but he's certainly sympathetic to the religion, and he's also a marxist, and as his wife made especially clear, he has no love for our country.

I think that's bad enough. No need to decide whether he is muslim or not.

Matt said...

Michael & Carol

Note I never said all religious faiths are equal and therefore it is all relative.

What I basically am saying [in part] is no matter where you go in the world you will encounter people with different faiths. And invariably those faiths are widely held and very near and dear to the people who live there. And have been for centuries. Who are we to say they are wrong? Maybe they all believe the same thing without knowing it?

But, yeah, that's too New Agey of an idea for most....

knox said...

I think that's bad enough. No need to decide whether he is muslim or not.

Yes. There are plenty of things not to like about Obama without worrying whether or not he's Muslim. He can, and does, do enough damage just on account of his secular ideology.

Joe said...

Who are we to say they are wrong?

The Pope, the Patriarch of Constantinople, the Sublime Porte, a number of other folks, possibly even YOU, if you are in Saudi Arabia and you'er a Devout Baptist, or conversely if you are in Little Rock and you are a Wahabi.

You can be wrong and I don't have to declare a Jihad or a Crusade. But if you have a whole bunch of religions and they say "A" or Not-A" well some of them have to be wrong, but it is either "A" or "Not-A."



Maybe they all believe the same thing without knowing it?

What, "Thou shalt not disfigure teh soul." Wow, the Orange Catholic Bible, thanks there Commission of Ecumenical Translators.

No, sorrry either Jesus was the Way, the Light and the Truth, or we get multiple shots at Nirvana...but it's hard to see anything else.

You're right it's too New Agey" you apparently have sunk into some kind of "let's all hug and get along." It's childlike, adults can agree to disagree, we don't ahve to worry about his or my feelings being hurt, if you don't like my religious "toy."

Robert Cook said...

Allen S. said:

"The most ridiculous Sunday news footage was the two Clintons on the way into church every Sunday, with The Bill carrying his bible.

Ya, you betcha."


Perhaps...but then, how are the Clintons any different in this regard, if true, than the vast majority of self-described god-fearing Christians?

Joe said...

Perhaps...but then, how are the Clintons any different in this regard, if true, than the vast majority of self-described god-fearing Christians?

I guess if:
1) Your majority of G8d-Fearing Christians (GFC's) never made more than $32,000 in any job they held, prior to 1992, but are now worth $109 MILLION dollars;
and
2) Their SO spends her time talking about how we all need to suffer, contribute and pay more, whilst paying for a $5 million wedding; and
3) A majority of GFC's have had affairs with interns that could have been their offspring...

Sure if that's what the majority of GFC's fit then I guess you're right...

Wow, RC you do prove that that you know STOOPIT statements, they appear under your name all the time.

Robert Cook said...

Allen S. said,

"Go ahead, Mr. Cook, tell us what religion Obama belongs to. Be sure and provide some sort of evidence of your conviction."

I would not presume to say I know what religion he belongs to, if any. He claims to be a Christian. I have no reason to doubt that. He attended a Christian church for, what...20 years?

Appearances are all most of us have to go on in our assessments of all but our most intimate intimates.

Refer to my previous reply to you: how do any of us know what religion any of our apparently pious friends and neighbors actually subscribe to...if any?

Didn't Jesus say many will claim to know him, but he will deny them?

Matt said...

Joe

You’re inviting debate more than you know. Of course the Pope would say all other religions except Catholicism are wrong. What would you expect him to say? But it doesn't make him right.

When I say who are we to say they are wrong - it is a question that some may ask. If you are born in the middle of India the odds of you being Christian are rather low. And if you are born in Oklahoma the odds of becoming Hindu are rather low. Same applies in Muslim countries and Buddhist countries.

But try telling a Hindu in India or a Christian in Oklahoma they are wrong. You seem to say one is right and one is wrong. I'm asking: Really? Are you sure? I’m not going to tell them. Hence maybe we should hug it out....

Kirby Olson said...

It's possible to be a Marxist Christian. (Liberation theology along the lines of Rev Wright is Marxist Christianity.)

Is it possible to be a Marxist Muslim? If not, then Obama is not a Muslim.

Joe said...


You’re inviting debate more than you know. Of course the Pope would say all other religions except Catholicism are wrong. What would you expect him to say? But it doesn't make him right.


Actually the Pope DOESN'T Say all other religions are wrong...

Might help if you worked on your religious knowledge.

Joe said...

Is it possible to be a Marxist Muslim? If not, then Obama is not a Muslim.

8/19/10 5:48 PM



Saddam Hussein, tried it...of coourse he's not exactly the role model a SUCCESFUL POTUS might want to emulate?

c3 said...

Its interesting that until recently we only expected our Presidents to have a civic religion (preferably "generic Christian")

Jimmy Carter was the one to change that. Have we all forgotten the controversy around having a "born-again Christian" running for President? (How quaint it now seems to consider that President Carter "lusted in his heart")

Since the late 70's 'Christian" in a political sense has come to mean "conservative Christian" or maybe "I believe in family values etc"

Its not that its lost its meaning, its that the meaning (which said more about the American public than the president) has changed.

I'm not sure what term best fits our President's faith. I'm not sure its important. Its between he and God. He could be a strong Christian and I could still disagree with him politically.

We have strong Catholics on both sides of the political aisle.

Michael said...

Matt: It is not too "new agey" an idea it is a sophomoric idea.

c3 said...

As a case in point a significant percentage of Americans say they're "Christian". A minority of Americans attend church on a regular basis.

Obviously, the term "Christian" has a broad definition for Americans

I'd assume that the term "muslim" has an equally vague working definition.

How many Americans have actually met a muslim?

Joe said...


We have strong Catholics on both sides of the political aisle.


Not on the abortion aisle...Pelosi is NOT Catholic.

I do agree people expect "Christian" in the POTUS, but "generic Christian"...I don't think peole want to hear about Consubstantiation v. Transubstantiation, or whether the Pope correctly or incorrectly included the filioque in the Nicene Creed.

However, I do think Jeremiah Wright crossed a line, or should have...I agree we don't care by-and-large theology, but "the USA of KKKKK" really ought to have been too much. I guarantee had it been a white candidate hearing about the sins of Blacks, that candidate would be gone.

Rialby said...

When you go to a radical church led by a radical preacher and the press conspires to cover it up, some % of the people are going to question your faith.

Remember, his pastor is a former member of the Nation of Islam who became a Christian yet is still close with Farrakhan. What does that tell you?

Rialby said...

What religion did Barack Obama practice when he was a child in Indonesia? He once told the NYT that the call to prayer was "one of the prettiest sounds on earth at sunset".

Did Barack Obama ever consider or call himself a Muslim? Is this something that the fawning press should have asked before he was elected?

Kirstin said...

This issue has been settled:

“The president is obviously a Christian,” said deputy press secretary Bill Burton. “He prays every day.”

Reagan wasn't a model of faithful church attendance as president, but maybe he was sincerely concerned about the inconvenience to churchgoers if he attended services. Maybe Obama uses inconvenience to churchgoers as an excuse to play another game of golf.

Reagan spoke from a Christian worldview and was criticized for it. One of Obama's priorities upon taking office was to withdraw the "Mexico City Policy" executive order (Reagan and Bush 43) prohibiting funding foreign abortions.

Joe said...


He once told the NYT that the call to prayer was "one of the prettiest sounds on earth at sunset".


Hey now, Rialby it IS...go to YouTube, listen to it. It is incredibly beautiful.

Rialby said...

Skyler - should have read your post first. You're absolutely right. It doesn't matter if he's a Muslim. He's a horrible POTUS.

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