September 14, 2008

Do you worry about what black people will think if Barack Obama loses?

I do. This worry has been a factor in my thinking about whether to vote for Obama, and I also worry that it's wrong to allow it to be a factor. So I was eager to read Randall Kennedy essay. Excerpt:
Black America, of course, is diverse. Some black conservatives -- columnist Thomas Sowell or Ken Blackwell, former secretary of state of Ohio -- will undoubtedly be delighted by an Obama defeat; he is, after all, their ideological foe. But there are also black leftists who oppose him. Writing in the Progressive magazine, Prof. Adolph Reed of the University of Pennsylvania urges voters to reject Obama (as well as McCain) because he is a "vacuous opportunist" who, like Bill Clinton, conservatizes the leftward end of the American political spectrum. A close variant is the camp of blacks who will be relieved by an Obama defeat because they fear that his victory would misleadingly suggest that America is no longer in need of large-scale racial reform. Still others, who believe that Obama has hurt himself by seeking the political center and declining to be more forceful in voicing a progressive alternative to the Republican ticket, would feel somber vindication.

There are blacks who'll be indifferent to an Obama defeat because they don't think that the outcome of the presidential race will have any real effect on their miserable fates. Others, protecting themselves against the pain of disappointment, have systematically repressed expectations....

If Obama loses, I personally will feel disappointed, frustrated, hurt. I'll conclude that a fabulous opportunity has been lost. I'll believe that American voters have made a huge mistake. And I'll think that an important ingredient of their error is racial prejudice -- not the hateful, snarling, open bigotry that terrorized my parents in their youth, but rather a vague, sophisticated, low-key prejudice that is chameleonlike in its ability to adapt to new surroundings and to hide even from those firmly in its grip.

If Obama is defeated, I will, for a brief time, be stunned by feelings of dejection, anger and resentment. These will only be the stronger because the climate of this election year so clearly favors the Democrats, because this was supposed to be an election the Republicans couldn't win, and because in my view, the Obama ticket is obviously superior to McCain's.

But I hope that soon thereafter I'll find solace and encouragement in contemplating this unprecedented development: A major political party nominated a black man for the highest office in the land, and that man waged an intelligent, brave campaign in which many millions of Americans of all races enthusiastically supported an African American standard-bearer.
Two things Kennedy doesn't say: 1. Much of Obama's success has come from white people who have a very positive attitude about the prospect of the first black President. 2. Some of Obama's success occurred because of resistance to the idea of a woman President. 3. White Democrats have also lost in years when people thought the Democrats were somehow destined to win.

197 comments:

D said...

They'll get over it. Although I am not sure the MSM, Hollywood, and other elitist liberals ever will.

And frankly, just like with Sarah Palin, I think the first black person elected to White House - either as the President or VP - will be a Republican.

Whether they will get over that is another thing altogether.

Fen said...

There are blacks who'll be indifferent to an Obama defeat because they don't think that the outcome of the presidential race will have any real effect on their miserable fates.

What a load of crap. Yes Randall, there will still be blacks clinging to their victim status - thats "their miserbale fate"

that man waged an intelligent, brave campaign

Obama's campaing has been incompetent and prideful. He's the typical Affirmative Action hire. We've seen them in our work spaces, no way are we allowing that PCBS in our oval office.

Don Singleton said...

You say a factor in your thinking about whether to vote for Obama is whether black people will be upset if Obama loses?????

There are some Muslims that will be upset if we do not institute Sharia law in the US. Some of them even fly planes into buildings. But I don't think the fact that they might be upset is any reason to install Sharia law in this country.

Even if we faced a repeat of the Los Angeles Race Riots of 1992, I don't think that would be any reason to quiver in fear and vote for Obama.

Fen said...

Black America, of course, is diverse

Sure, that must be why 90% of them routinely vote for the Party of Enslavement.

Fen said...

You say a factor in your thinking about whether to vote for Obama is whether black people will be upset if Obama loses?????

Everyone here will be upset if Ann doesn't strip down during her next BHTV...

Everyone here will be upset if Ann doesn't hand out $100 checks...

All kidding aside Ann, I'm astonished that your vote is prey to extortion.

rhhardin said...

I recommend the ``I no longer care what black people are mad about'' position, that more or less started after OJ.

Articulated by John and Ken (KFI) March 18 after Rev Wright, real audio.

It's actually the only position that's willing to treat blacks as adults.

m00se said...

Call it Hillary's revenge.

Call it Hillary's supporter's revenge.

Call it sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Man, I'm taking getting tired of this crap. The electorate needs to grow up.

AllenS said...

I've been hoping for massive race riots. That's why I'll probably vote for McCain, even though I don't particularly care for the man.

rhhardin said...

John and Ken (KFI) con't
The podcast of the whole 3PM hour is here (mp3)

Bob said...

Another thing to bear in mind: nothing prevents Obama from running again, when he will have more experience in the Senate and world affairs than he does at this point.

The tradition of presidential candidates basically retiring from running for president is a recent one. There is nothing to prevent an effective candidate who loses a close race from trying again.

sammy990099 said...

Man, White Liberal Guilt taken to an extreme. And they call conservatives "shallow" because we like 'em "folksy".

Dadgum said...

P Diddy won't be happy about not being able to party in the White House.

sammy990099 said...

p.s.

Yes, it is wrong to vote FOR (or agains) Obama because he is black, well, because it's racist.

The Drill SGT said...

I think the first black person elected to White House - either as the President or VP - will be a Republican


I don't see that the GOP has a huge blck bench rioght now. I certainly would have voted for Powell, and I like Watts however...

I do agree with your basic point. In local elections for example LA in my case, the first black elected was Bradley, who was a cop. He wasn't GOP, but he was viewed as a conservative law and order guy and therefore crossed over. I suspect that was part of Powell's appeal as well.

It is likely easier for a black conservative to take the GOP vote and pick up black racial votes and feel good white votes (like Ann) than it would be to start with a black liberal who has the minority and feel good vote locked up, but can't get a single extra vote

oldirishpig said...

Reply to Bob @ 7:28 AM:

There is one insurmountable obstacle to Obama running again in 2012 after he loses this year. It's his party; they eat their losers alive. Seen much of John Kerry or Michael Dukakis lately?

terrance said...

"Do you worry about what black people will think if Barack Obama loses?"

Congratulations Ann. You capture an essential truth again in your blog.

You notice that Ann does not fear what white people, women, geriatrics, children, hispanics, italians, jews, fundamentalists, and so on will think in response to the outcome of this election.

Ann....are you really significantly less worried after having read the opinion of a Black Ivy League Law Professor?

D said...

I don't see that the GOP has a huge blck bench rioght now. I certainly would have voted for Powell, and I like Watts however...

I agree, but Sarah Palin came out of the blue and so could a good conservative black candidate. And how about Michael Steele?

Of course, the next up and coming guy I see isn't black, but of East-Indian heritage - Bobby Jindal. He and Palin would make a formidable ticket in a few years.

Funny how the GOP is looking like the party of diversity now, isn't it?

dr kill said...

No.

yashu said...

Fen, I think it behooves conservatives (and Republicans in general) to recognize and indeed insist that "Black America, of course, is diverse," whatever the current voting statistics are. To do otherwise is to play into the kind of thinking that deems Condi Rice or Clarence Thomas "not really black" (or for that matter Palin "not really a woman").

Oxbay said...

The only saving grace of an Obama victory is the fact of a black man winning the election and becoming President of the Unites States. The makers of conventional wisdom would despise how people like me would expect that all affirmative action programs would have to be disbanded. If an African American could become President on his own merits there is nothing that prevents anyone of doing anything they want in our country. The government would have to adopt Althouse's standard of Cruel Neutrality when it comes to all things race.

Of course that should be the standard already.

Michael_H said...

"Do you worry what black people will think if Barack Obama loses?"

Nope. Not a bit. Do black people worry what I'll think if John McCain loses? Nope.

Americans are far more color neutral than those who earn a living at the prospect of being aggrieved believe.

The Drill SGT said...

D:

I forgot about Steele and agree about Jindal

Observer said...

Of all the reasons to vote for a candidate, it would be hard to find a worse one than a fear that blacks will riot if that candidate loses. Would you vote the other way if you believed even more whites would riot if McCain loses?

EnigmatiCore said...

"I also worry that it's wrong to allow it to be a factor."

There might be a reason for this.

Peter V. Bella said...

I do not worry about what Black people or any other racial or ethnic group think; nor do I care. If people are going to vote for Barak Obama solely on the race issue, then they are fools; just like people who voted for Hillary just because she is a woman. It is the same if you vote for a candidate solely on party affiliation; regardless of the candidate’s lack of qualifications or experience. Gee, what will the party think if I vote against them?

The goal is to elect someone who will represent all of us, not just one group of us. The day whoever raises his hand to take that oath is the day he is the President of the United States; not the President of the Blacks, women, gays, Hispanics, or any other individual group.

Meade said...

"Two things Kennedy doesn't say..."

And, 4. Unlike most black Americans, Barack Obama had the freedom to choose whether or not to be "black."

terrance said...

Part of the brilliance of Ann's blog rests on the sequence of her posts, in addition to the content of each individual entry. After correctly observing that she fears the reaction of black people to an Obama loss, she idiographically notes the anxiety of one liberal white person, namely Frank Rich if Palin were to be elected.

Ann's progression of posts demonstrates the truth of her observations. That she aptly worries about the reactions of a certain race of people (blacks) while noting a more differentiated set of responses from white people. Ann rightly observes that If Barak is elected we have much less to fear from the McVeighites than we do African Americans in general if he is not elected.

Ann, outstanding one-two punch on the blog front.

Dogwood said...

Do you worry about what black people will think if Barack Obama loses?

Why should I?

bleeper said...

I live in a place that is majority black. I really don't concern myself with what others think. I do, however, have a large number of firearms and plenty of ammo. Dogs, too. Others can think what they will, I will defend myself and my property. With luck, the rioting that occurs when Hussein is defeated will not be in my neighborhood.

Mitch said...

Ann--

Do you worry about those who "...cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment..." if Obama wins?

Imagine what they're going to do with all those guns and Bibles....

As long as individuals think of themselves primarily as hyphenated-Americans, and politicians pander to that identity, we've got a problem regardless of who wins this election or subsequent elections.

John Clifford said...

I don't worry about "what black people will think" if Obama loses. Come on, Ann... this is about the most racist thing I've ever read, at least from you.

Treating "black people" as if they were monolithic is racist. As your quote from Kennedy pointed out, some blacks are Democrats, some are Republicans. Some are pro-Obama, some aren't.

If we ever want to get past racism in this country then we need to stop thinking about blacks as especially needful of protection against the struggles of life. Like, "Oh, my God! How will they handle it if a black man loses the election?"

Black people are people first, just like white people. In fact, we are all African-Americans; some of us left Africa earlier than others and took a more circuitous route.

The way to get over race is to get over it. What I worry about is that well-intentioned idiots will vote for one person over another because of skin color instead of qualifications. You know... racism.

CinnamongirlFla said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
miller said...

The question can have (at least) two meanings:
1. Do I personally care what other people think about my private choices?

No. Not. One. Bit.

2. Am I concerned about a society where one segment of it is so divorced from the rest of society that it would riot if it (the small minority) doesn't get its way, failing to see how a pluralistic society works?

Yes. However, see

2a. Am I concerned enough to sway MY choice so that the potential for violence is reduced?

No. Not. One. Bit.

I am amazed at how some people (I don't include Ann here) patronize blacks as somehow incapable of making good choices or as somehow needing protection from bad choices.

Voting for Bambi is a Bad Choice. Not a smart one.

I don't think even a large minority of blacks will riot. I think we'll hear unpleasant speeches and a lot of hate expressed right away in high dudgeon. And I think we'll see a re-energized base of Grievance Theatre. And the leftist blogs will explode. And MoveOn.org will likely stamp its little feet in even more frustration.

But over all, I can live with that. Because expressing your opinion is fine.

There might be a small number of losers who think that violence will advance their cause. They will, of course, be the type of people who fail to see that history shows these types of movements always fail to achieve their objectives.

The word for those types of people who will resort to violence if Bambi isn't elected is simple.

Losers.

Bissage said...

Like Professor Kennedy and so many of his clan of melanin-enhanced persons, I too will feel some degree of pride if Mr. Obama is elected President of the United States.

This is remarkable for I could be fairly described as “fish belly white.” The blue of my veins shines forth like a road map of the Interstate Highway System. When I go to the beach I do not tan; I stroke. Rudolph took ill one Christmas Eve so Santa gave me a glass of brandy and hitched me to the front of his team of reindeer and guided his sleigh by the light of the aurora borealis that was my face.

You get the idea.

So where do I get off claiming I’m an honorary member of America’s foremost race of noble savages?

It happened many years ago and I’ll spare you the details. Suffice it to say that a carousing Saturday night on the wrong side of town resulted in the event of my dropping trou for a nubile Nubian. Her eyes bulged and became as large as saucers as she exclaimed: “Lawdy, lawdy, Missuh Bissage, you done gotsa baddie biggsah broddah, you does!!!” She let loose with a “SHEEEIT!” and then seized upon my gleaming manhood with a jungle lust unlike any other I have known.

So you see, I too can claim membership among the Traveling Brotherhood of the Funky Mugambo.

Should Mr. Obama prevail this November, I will see it as not so much a moral victory for the Dark Race, but rather a victory for all those blessed with the primitive, yet devastatingly effective, ecoutremont we share in common.

hdhouse said...

I worry more about the country if Obama doesn't win.

terrance said...

I don't worry about "what black people will think" if Obama loses. Come on, Ann... this is about the most racist thing I've ever read, at least from you.

You are being unfair to Ann. Do you believe that her worries are intentionally, deliberately, and voluntarily formed? While you are at it why not demand of Ann that she not experience hunger when she has not eaten.

Paco Wové said...

"...this is about the most racist thing I've ever read, at least from you."

Seconded.

D said...

I worry more about the country if Obama doesn't win.

Funny, I worry about the country if he does win.

miller said...

I worry about Michele. How will this put fresh fruit on her children's table?

Simon Kenton said...

"a vague, sophisticated, low-key prejudice that is chameleonlike in its ability to adapt to new surroundings and to hide even from those firmly in its grip"

Got yer false consciousness, right here.

knox said...

the climate of this election year so clearly favors the Democrats, because this was supposed to be an election the Republicans couldn't win, and because in my view, the Obama ticket is obviously superior to McCain's.

It's not the "black rage/disappointment" factor that worries me: it's the feeling of utter entitlement that democrats have had since this election began. They picked a guy who is fairly green and then piled all these ridiculous expectations on him. They really think he's perfect, and they've never considered the possibility that he may lose (that's why Palin has caused such an uproar).

All of this adds up to a scary scenario: we are in for one hell of a temper tantrum if Obama loses in November--black disappointment is the least of it.

AllenS said...

Wanna bet that every black that Ann has in her class graduates? They might not do any work, pass any test, attend many classes, but they will graduate. Ann is afraid of the consequences if they don't pass. Go ahead Ann, vote for Obama, not because you like what he stands for, but because you are afraid of black people.

miller said...

I really don't think Ann means what you think she means.

I think she means something along the lines of "the liberal elites are unable to cope with their ideas and candidates getting rejected, and they might resort to a hissy fit."

I don't think she means that she will change her vote because some people might riot.

chickenlittle said...

Ann said: This worry has been a factor in my thinking about whether to vote for Obama, and I also worry that it's wrong to allow it to be a factor.

I honestly don't understand this sentiment. Color me ignorant.

Roger J. said...

To the headline of your post: Not at all.

On the more generic question of this campaign, go to realclearpolitics and look at the polls. This is not good news for Team Obama, and if there is, in fact, a "brady factor"--and I think there is, Obama is down by a couple of more percentage points that wont show up until November 4. Now that is sad, but I think it also realisitic.

Roger J. said...

Chickenlittle: I think what it suggests is that our hostess is, at heart, a liberal, and a conflicted one at that.

Pogo said...

I expect many blacks will continue see themselves as victims regardless of the outcome.

Black city council, mayors, governors, Senators and House Representatives haven't changed that mindset one iota.

Why should this?

chickenlittle said...

@Roger: I have the Realclearpolitics electoral map . I love the daily change.

miller said...

Washington State is in play. WASHINGTON.

Looks like Dino Rossi might boot out Governor Chris, too.

I love this.

yashu said...

I can't speak for Ann, but I don't think the concern (for me) is about what people may *do* but what they may *think*. (And not as a basis for decision, but as a contemplation of what the future may bring.) I really don't expect riots, etc. (at least not by black people)--that seems really implausible and far-fetched to me. I imagine there will be great disappointment and dejection among many (as there was among many women when Hillary lost, probably much more), but I don't foresee anger or rage among a majority of blacks.

I do foresee rage and despair-- but more among liberal whites and others who've been seething since Bush was first elected and have only raged and despaired ever since (until Obama augured an end to their nightmare, the exorcism of Bush/Republicans from power). I do fear the extent to which "racism" as explanation for a hypothetical McCain victory will be exploited as a rhetorical weapon, by the usual suspects (as it already is, of course, cf. Frank Rich in post above). That will be the narrative for many here, and in other countries, bandied about in editorials (cf. all the talk of reactionary homophobic evangelicals after the last election).

But (perhaps I am an optimist) I don't think it will lead a majority of black people to feel this country is significantly more racist than they already think it to be. Indeed, I hope in the long term Obama's candidacy (like Palin's), whether or not he (or she) wins, will have helped in that regard, expanded people's sense of possibility. His hypothetical loss will confirm the belief that our country is racist to a rotten core only in those who already feel that it is (e.g. as expressed by a commenter or two at Althouse--whom I don't believe to be black).

chickenlittle said...

@Roger. One reason I read Althouse is that I feel many of the same conflicts she does (I voted D for many many years). I just don't get guilt politics at all.

miller said...

Bambi will reach his high point of 45% support in the general election. There's a solid base of about 40%, plus an extra 5% who choose based upon the latest ad they see.

McCain will pick up the solid 40% of the vote plus the remaining "independents" who see an invigorated, fresh, and positive administration.

But the bitterness on the left will be awesome to see.

The NYT's editorial offices will not be a safe place to be.

I would love to be a fly on the wall as Bill & Hillary watch the election returns in the comfort of their living room. They will turn to each other and say one word: "2012."

Roger J. said...

Miller is spot on. McCain will win the popular vote narrowly, but take enough EC votes, the only ones that matter, to preclude even the possibility of a legal challenge. Go to realclearpolitics, look at polling data and trend lines, and ask yourself: how can Obama reverse these?

Roger J. said...

Miller--GREAT NEWS from WA state--you have a link to a good source for polling data there? Its not that Chris Gregoire is bad, its just the unseemly way she stole the election from Rossi. I know there is no hope for SeaKing, but thanks to Gaia that the rest of the state might be able to slay the seaking dragon.

Roger J. said...

Chickenlittle: let me suggest this aphorism: A cynic is just a wounded idealist. Liberalism, not as currently defined, is my default position. Unfortunately, liberalism has been coopted by so called "progressives," which has debased that once proud term.

miller said...

Roger, I will have to go find it on the radio site. It mentioned Dino's polling above Chris, and that the gap between Bambi-McCain is about 2 percentage points, with McCain moving up strongly.

Washington's got a crazy independent streak to it. Sometimes they'll vote for a wastrels like Murray or McDermott, but sometimes they vote for the intelligent choice, such as Reagan.

miller said...

Washington State is essentially Seattle and All Else.

Seattle routinely votes 120% for the most leftist Democrat.

The rest of the state has to struggle against that.

Rossi's going for the swath of voters around Seattle, the ones that want to be socially conscious but who do not want to bankrupt the state to do so.

miller said...

This isn't really official, but the latest poll shows a statistical tie between Rossi-Gregoire:
Survey USA for Washington 9/8/08

The Drill SGT said...

I'll turn Ann's thought around.

I think that America will NEVER elect a hyphenated American. (e.g. any variant)

Obama was leading when people thought of him as post-racial, now that he is a Black American, he is going to lose. People want their President to think of him/herself as American first. That is also why a Palin might be President, but a card carrying Feminist will lose.

Powell though black was recognized as a American success story through and through. His themes would not have been his blackness, but rather his American story. He would have won, Obama could have one, but is now headed for a big defeat.

If the people think of you as American first, you can win, emphasizing that other stuff is a sure loss.

Dudley Do-right said...

No, I don't worry a bit. I think there are enough mature, intelligent blacks that
1)see what a hash Obama's making of his campaign.
2)recognize that Obama's offered little of substance as to how he'd govern.
3)want the country to survive and to be well run for the good of themselves and everyone else.
4)know that "Change" can be for worse as well as for better and, in fact, worse is more likely.

IOW, don't sell "the Blacks" short, they're thinking people too.

But, if I'm wrong to the point that there's to be a race war, now's as good a time as any. Let's get it over with.
DD

Roger J. said...

Miller--thanks for the link. I was born and raised in Miami, but WA state has been my home since 1978 (until recently). Eastern WA however which is a different from seaking as night from day. Having had the opportunity to see all 57 states, I will fearlessly state, there is none so beautiful as Washington state.

miller said...

I am a transplant myself.

It took me a while to think of myself as a "Washingtonian." But the first time I paid my car tabs, I knew I was (a) a citizen and (b) going to change the ways things ran.

Tim Eyman is a wonderful gadfly to have around. He simply drives the Seattle elite nuts the same way Sarah Palin drives the NYT nuts.

Every complacent Democrat-run city-state needs an Eyman to keep things honest.

MikeR said...

I'm really disappointed. Just reading the comments on that other post is sad. Take the black impression that most everyone out there is racist, plus the liberal impression that How could a majority really disagree with them, and you have the ingredients for a whole lot of paranoia.

I hope that McCain wins a sizable plurality; that should help some.

There's one person who could really help here, and he has chosen not to. I would give Barack Obama a lot of credit if he would say, You know, a lot of white people are voting for me because they're happy that a black man would be president in America. I expect that that is a much larger number than the white people who may vote against me because I'm black. And I hope to win this election, but it is not going to be decided on my color. If I win, it's because more Americans agree with the policies I espouse. And if I lose, it's because there are many Americans who still agree with John McCain's (foolish, outdated) policies.

But he has chosen not to say this, and it's a real pity.

Joan said...

(a)the climate of this election year so clearly favors the Democrats, (b) because this was supposed to be an election the Republicans couldn't win, and because in my view, (c) the Obama ticket is obviously superior to McCain's.

(a) is undeniably true, given how much the MSM is in the tank for the Democrats.
(b) was true back when Iraq was a mess, gasoline was over $4/gallon, and the housing crisis was making headlines every day. Now, not so much, although the media will keep harping on those slightly higher unemployment figures.
(c) is just ludicrous. Obama's first important decision as an executive was naming his VP, and he picked Biden. Biden, who says Hillary would've been a better choice, and asks wheelchair-bound supporters to "stand up!" The idea of Biden a heartbeat away from the presidency is truly frightening. He can't open his mouth without bungling something -- Putin would laugh in his face.

Roger J. said...

Miller--ah yes tim eyman and the 30 dollar car tabs--gaia bless him.. unfortunately those 30 dollar car tabs keep crawling up. But yes, every political system needs a disturber of the peace, and Tim is the man.

For the rest of the posters, this is an inside joke.

Fen said...

hdhouse: I worry more about the country if Obama doesn't win.

Well, I don't believe you. But, if for once you really care about the country over your own selfish interests, I guess thats a start.

Obama's first important decision as an executive was naming his VP, and he picked Biden.

Worse, his first reaction to a crisis [Palin] was to panic and flail about wildly. He's not ready for a leadership role.

PJ said...

I agree with the Drill Sgt that Powell would have won the 2000 election if he had run. (I sometimes joke that Mrs. Powell bears more responsibility for the Bush Administration than any other individual.) That's what got me over worrying about whether a black man could be elected President, and what it would say about our society if the answer were no. The election of Obama would have symbolic significance, of course, and all else being equal that could be a very good thing. But all else is hardly equal, and that symbolic good will not figure in my vote. In any case, I don't see any reason to believe that Obama would do anything beyond the symbolic achievement of his election to actually promote the cause of racial harmony.

Thorley Winston said...

Obama's campaing has been incompetent and prideful. He's the typical Affirmative Action hire. We've seen them in our work spaces, no way are we allowing that PCBS in our oval office.

Fen, what’s a PCBS?

And I agree that Obama is in many ways an unqualified affirmative action pick and became the nominee largely because in the Democratic primary, identity politics is king not queen.

What irritates me about his nomination though is how much he reminds me of some of the people I went to school with who would get stuck in our small groups for class projects. While I and a couple of others were doing all of the actual work, they would spend their time BSing with other students and their name would get put on the final product which they got as much (or more depending on who they talked to) credit while someone else did all or most of the actual work.

I’ve seen that in a number of the bills that he’s “co-sponsored” – his name gets added as a co-sponsor after the primary sponsors have done all of the work and there is no indication that he actually did anything other than put his name on the bill after the work was done so that he could get credit for passing a bill.

That being said, I’m voting for McCain and against Obama because I care about health care reform, entitlement program reform and other economic issues and McCain is generally awesome on those while Obama is absolutely awful. The not liking Obama’s personality is a distant third in my consideration.

Fen said...

Politicly Correct Bull Shit

zeek said...

Wanda Sykes said it well. "If he wins black people are going to have to come up with another excuse. You can't blame the man when you are then man." Jump ahead to 2:30 for the above quote.

It's enough to make racist white people vote for him so they can do away with Affirmative Action being based on color rather than need.

The other problem is what if Obama wins and is so ineffective at the job that he becomes another David Dinkins? NYC's first and only black mayor is considered by many to be one of the worst the city ever had and he was voted out after his first term. He was also the last Democratic mayor the city has had. That was about 15 years ago in an overwhelmingly Democratic city. If inexperienced Obama screws up he could not only set back the party but the advancement/image of black people as well. It's not like there's a long list of viable alternatives. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton?

Assuming the traditional racist vote is contained within Republican voters, and the guilty white vote is contained within Democratic voters, are the above doubts enough to make non-racist swing voters pull the lever for McCain?

terrance said...

Ann is not racist or prejudice in any way. Her courage and perspicaciousness are second to none. She is an individual who happens to see reality more accurately than most and is able to articulate her vision better than almost anyone else I have ever encountered.

Roger J. said...

you know, Fen, your problem is you keep it inside and dont let it out!

Good man--and as a cavalry man I will tell you: Gary Owen

Zeb Quinn said...

Guilt-tripping is not an effective campaign strategy or the overall basis for a presidency.

Oregon had its own Tim Eyman, Bill Sizemore (who is himself originally from WA). In fact, some say Eyman modeled himself after Eyman. But the liberal machine utterly destroyed Sizemore.

Roger J. said...

Sorry Terrance--shes not going to let you suck her toes. (OK, that was crude)

Roger J. said...

Miller and Zeb--as northwesterners we would have to take too long to explain this insurgent aspect of NW politics. But I take your point. I think it will have to remain an inside joke.

jdeeripper said...

"Do you worry about what black people will think if Barack Obama loses?"

No. I hope Obama loses and I hope his supporters of whatever race are dissapointed and bitter.

I hope Obama's defeat forces them to cling to their religion more and continue to scapegoat White America for all their problems.

Maybe We Can't
by Cinque Henderson
The black case for Obama-skepticism

Zeb Quinn said...

In fact, some say Eyman modeled himself after Eyman.

That should be, some say Eyman modeled himself after Sizemore.

miller said...

Zeb, your first quote was perhaps more interesting and Freudian. ;)

garage mahal said...

Obama was leading when people thought of him as post-racial, now that he is a Black American, he is going to lose

Funny that all started when he starting running against Karl Rove. . Because we know Republicans are "Values Voters".

OldGrouchy said...

I now understand how Dear Sweet Prof. Althouse almost became a Math. Prof. Three very clear reasons: 1.) her love of analytical thinking and 2.) her use of algebraic formulations in her discussions.

miller said...

Quoting from thinkprogress?

Fair, balanced reporting.

That's the ticket to convince me.

It reminds me of my absolutely favorite book shop in Ann Arbor with a sign that proudly says "Where independent minds come together," with the unstated "and all think alike."

I found it hard to believe that independent minds think 9/11 was an inside job, but this shop certainly thought so.

And Karl Rove was behind every Bush.

Really, quite funny. There are some things so stupid only the intellectuals can believe them.

Roger J. said...

you gotta admire Karl Rove and his mind control machine--what a magnificent bastard. He alone is torpedoeing the Obama candidacy. Or, maybe not.

William said...

Kodak moment: A twelve year old little girl in pigtails meets Obama. She is black and thrilled beyond words to meet him. This is clearly the greatest moment of her life. Obama shakes her hand. He senses the affection and pride flowing out of her, and he basks in it and smiles at her with genuine joy. It is a very fine moment to observe....I suspect that some people will vote for him because of moments such as this, just as I suspect Sarah won a fair number of votes when her little girl patted down the baby's hair....Chivalry is extended not just to women but to all vulnerable people--minorities, children, the handicapped. There are a lot of good things to come out of this campaign.....I would like to think that Obama is as fine and straight as he looks. He is a tall oak but he comes from a fever swamp that produces such stunted growths as Sharpe James, Kwame Kilpatrick, and the Rev. Jackson. I am glad that he inspires the hope of that nice little girl and worried that he has the support of such deeply flawed characters....To expand on the comments of zeek above: When Mayor Dinkins won the mayoralty in NYC, many were very proud to have a black mayor. The feeling was transient. The trick is not to elect a black mayor but to elect a good black mayor. Ditto with a black president.

Trooper York said...

Bissage, you should be very happy that Mort is not awake. Otherwise, look out brother.

Joe said...

I'm not really concerned with what blacks think come an Obama loss. I've had this discussion a number of times with my black friends and it boils down to this - the fact that Obama is where he is proves we're not a "racist" nation since there aren't enough Blacks in America to get him this far. If they want to ask themselves why he didn't win, look at his politics not his skin color. Obama is a small "s" socialist and we are simply not that liberal a nation.

Of course I also tell them that Obama has two problems in the GE. First he's never had to run a campaign in a truly competitive race. Second his campaign (and Democrats in general) act like they're fighting the last election all over again.

Re: Point one - Obama's previous elections were all gimees. Even when he ran for the US Senate, his first real challenge, he was aided by a divorce scandal that torpedoed his Republican rival and left him to face Alan Keyes. Obama and Axelrod like to think they know what they're doing but they're unprepared for running a real, nationwide race. Look at the strategy Axelrod used to get them this far: a campaign focused on gaming the caucuses and pushing urban turnout in primary states. This worked against Hillary initially and in the early going Obama won big. Yet when Hillary adjusted her game plan and went after the rural and suburban voters, she rallied and began winning. Obama coasted after March and ultimately relied on Dean's influence to help him secure the super delegates necessary to insure the nomination.

Re: Point two - Rove isn't the strategist you need to worry about. McCain's campaign and it's exceptional performance since July are all because of Steve Schmidt who has organized a tightly scripted, iron disciplined, and extremely agile campaign that has managed to get inside the Obama/Axelrod OODA loop. The more Democrats continue to focus on the missteps of the Kerry campaign and their favorite boogie man Karl Rove, the greater the McCain advantage. Schmidt is using Clausewitz and Sun Tzu, Obama/Axelrod are planning Pickett's charge. McCain/Palin are flanking them, pressuring their supply lines, and harrying their rear. They have turned Obama's strength into weaknesses (Celebrity), seized key positions (Change/Reform), and forced Obama to take risky attacks (Lipstick) and go on the Defensive (when you have to say you're going on the offensive you aren't). Obama/Axelrod are fighting the last war with failed tactics and the only thing they can hope for is that the other side makes a serious mistake down the line otherwise they're due a rude awakening on the 5th.

terrance said...

Roger J. said...
Sorry Terrance--shes not going to let you suck her toes. (OK, that was crude)

Roger...it was appositely crude. Your comments consistenly border on comedic genius.

LutherM said...

I was wondering how to vote in the Presidential Election.
My acquaintances told me, if I vote REPUBLICAN;
the United States will have over 500,000 troops in a war;
the U.S. will lose that war;
and there will be protests and riots in America.
I thought about it and decided;
the DEMOCRAT was a PHONY;
the REPUBLICAN was an HONEST MAN;
so I voted for GOLDWATER.

(It turned out my acquaintances were right)

save_the_rustbelt said...

Luther M:

Ain't that the truth!

If Obama loses, look for a revival of the "What's the Matter with Kansas?" theme - the rubes are not smart enough to vote for their own interests.

The Drill SGT said...

Joe,

nice analysis. Roger J, Trooper and I would describe it as a classic Cavalry campaign. Stuart on a good day. Sun Tzu more than Clauswitz.

Gary Owen!

vbspurs said...

There is a very good Instalanched post about this. It's about the dead silence at Columbia, when hearing much of what McCain said.

Check out the (Haloscan) comments. I contributed my peace after this foreigner wrote this:

It seems to me that the function of a true leader is to inspire others to follow. With strength, with purpose, with hope.

McCain is a symbol of the festering evil that has chocked the minds and souls of so many Americans. He will do nothing but tighten the leash of corporate control around your neck and, amazingly, you cheer them on.

Your minds are warped, your morality self-serving and your vitriol pathetic. You are cavemen who are no longer needed in this society. Your time is up, the game is over. Face it, you lost.

The USA needs hope, it needs a true leader, and the man to provide that is Obama.


So you know, Ann, factor in the wrath of the whole world if you reject The One. The Healer. The Leader.

Wait. The Leader? Now where have I heard that before?

Cheers,
Victoria

Jim said...

victoria -

I believe the appropriate term is "Dear Leader"...or was it "Comrade"?

I get so confused...

vbspurs said...

Il Duce? El Caudillo? Conducator? El Comandante-en-Jefe?

Why do tinpot politicians always have funny hats and funnier nicknames, Jim? It's one of the wonder of the ages, after chunky peanut butter.

Der Hahn said...

Fen said ... Worse, his first reaction to a crisis [Palin] was to panic and flail about wildly. He's not ready for a leadership role.

His first crisis was how to respond to the Russian invasion of Georgia and it produced the same flailing response - three different statements of policy and probably drove him to the knee-jerk selection of a 'foreign-policy expert', Biden, as his VP.

Kirk Parker said...

Fen,

"Everyone here will be upset if Ann doesn't strip down during her next BHTV"

Good grief, man, that's just you--everyone else is hoping for more egg salad sandwich action!


Bob,

So, Obama as the Harold Stassen of the Democratic Party? Works for me.

vbspurs said...

BTW, RH, thanks for the clip! I'm listening now.

I just want to say one thing about "do you worry about what black people will think if Obama loses"?

Why don't people care about how white people feel???

We will riot outside Brooks Brothers, and burn down Farmer's Markets. Feel the white hot rage!!

(See what I did there? "White" hot. Very clever, very clever)

Cheers,
Victoria

Kirk Parker said...

Roger J.,

"Its not that Chris Gregoire is bad,"

The heck you say. She's not Dukakis-level bad, but still bad enough in her own right--incompetent at governing, if nothing else (a trend she started as Attorney General.)

And with Roger, Zeb, and Miller here, and probably others, the real question isn't about inside jokes, it's when is Ann going to visit Seattle? :-)

Joe said...

Thank you Drill SGT.

However I'd say that the GE has evolved from a classic cavalry campaign to more of a pitched battle. I'm thinking in terms of Ghettysburg where Lee's cavalry (the media) were absent and left him blind (to Palin). When he did meet the enemy he flailed about blindly and thus got sucked into a battle he otherwise would not have chosen to fight. The difference here is that instead of getting stuck with a mediocre Meade the GOP's campaign is being run by Hancock (McCain), Chamberlain (Palin), and Reynolds (Schmidt).

Synova said...

terrence, I think, said, "You are being unfair to Ann. Do you believe that her worries are intentionally, deliberately, and voluntarily formed?"

And that's the thing about that.

I don't think Ann is being racist at all... but if we go by the "rules" then racism isn't about actual racism or prejudice or anything. It's not *even* about subconscious or unthinking reaction. It simply is and relies only on being a member of the oppressor race.

To wonder if being worried about the reaction of blacks to an Obama loss is wrong is honesty, and honestly a consideration of objective facts rather than unthinking prejudice.

But really... in this regard... it's probably not blacks who are going to be so upset at an Obama loss as that sub-group of white liberals... the ones that had to go into therapy after the 2000 and 2004 elections.

You know which ones I mean.

The ones who really *do* think that Bush has done something obviously worthy of impeachment, imprisonment, or even being hung for "war crimes." Those who are so full of fear of being thrown into a gulag when the impending Theocracy takes power that they view most Democrats and certainly the media to be in collusion.

There really are nut-jobs out there and they really *will* have a meltdown when Obama loses.

Roger J. said...

OK Kirk--give me a break here--I was trying out my soft gentler side about Chrissie. OK?

:)

Roger J. said...

Drill Sgt: may I ask what armor you served with? I came in the army and took basic with c troop seventh cavalry; my first assignment was with the second Armored Cavalry, and in viet nam i was blessed to serve with the first battalion of the 69th armored--the only armored unit in Viet Nam that fought as a battalion. Being a troop commander in combat was the most demanding duty I have ever had. It was the pinnacle of my career.

UWS guy said...

Blacks in the south were denied voting rights within most of your lifetimes.

Signs outside the city limits of cities said, "N***** don't let the sun set on you here." during most of your lifetimes.

America was an official apartheid nation during most of your lifetimes.

Fen and others talking about their guns and their fucking dogs in this thread are unfortunate.

Roger J. said...

terrance: thanks, sir. you have to understand that we old cavalry troopers are cut from different cloth. we ride to the sound of the guns and we save the last round if things go bad. Drill, Trooper and I are cavalry. Its a mindset.

UWS guy said...

The south (and those wanabees who live N, E, W of it) needs another lesson and I hope Obama delivers it.

The Drill SGT said...

Joe said...I'm thinking in terms of Ghettysburg where Lee's cavalry (the media) were absent and left him blind (to Palin).

If it's Gettysburg, it is that alternate universe where Lee listens to Longstreet.

For you amateur tacticans, Longstreet was a proponent of the Strategic Offense and Tactical Defense. He told Lee, "Screw those guys, Reynolds has them up on a bad ass hill, our boys are better marchers. We'll go around their right flank, and threaten Washington directly. We'll find a nice chunk of ground around Rockville and make those other poor dumb sons-of-bitches come up a hill at us.

Lee thought that it would hurt morale to leave the field so he ignored Longstreet and sent his boys up the hill to defeat. The rest is history.

McCain has gotten around behind Obama and seized the "change" banner and Obama and the media are now making successive and weaker charges uphill against a GOP team that is gaining morale and confidence in ultimate victory

Roger J. said...

Drill--great analogy.. they never listen to us, only except us to pull their ass out of the jams they put themselves in. From Marshal Ney on, the cavalry is the decisve arm of battle.

Peter V. Bella said...

I hope Obama's defeat forces them to cling to their religion more and continue to scapegoat White America for all their problems.

They are going to cling to their religion and their community organizers

nsikubx said...

It still surprises me to see such debates in various forums - including this one! Anyone that has been following both sides of the campaign strategically, should know by now that this historic election is not about race. And whether or no Barack Obama loses, has nothing to do with black people!

How demeaning is that?

This election is about the right candidate envisaged to bring the much anticipated change not only in America, but the world at large to make it a better place to live in.

chickenlittle said...

UWS guy said: The south (and those wanabees who live N, E, W of it) needs another lesson and I hope Obama delivers it.

Should I start banking offshore to avoid my share of reparations?

The Drill SGT said...

Drill Sgt: may I ask what armor you served with? I came in the army and took basic with c troop seventh cavalry

I served along side 3-7 Cav in Germany when I was with 2-64 and 3-64 Armor

Later, I was with 2-1 Cav and 3-66 Armor

My service in Nam was with 8th RRFS and 265th RRC 101AB

The Drill SGT said...

LOL,

Buford and Reynolds won the war for the Union when they picked the battlefield. :)

OldGrouchy said...

UWS: You don't what you're talking about. The Deep South was scary in the late Fifties and early Sixties, especially with a Northern license plate on the car.

However, even some, maybe many (I don't know and neither do you!) southerners disliked segregation and worked against it. The 1964 and 1965 Civil Rights Acts were righteous and people like Bull Connors are roasting in hell.

Do know this however, the USA was never an "apartheid nation" as you falsely claimed. Southern states were segregated for too many years and slavery remains a blight on our history, which many of us are trying to scrub away not from history but from the present.

Your "prayer" for an Obama hate filled rage against an ancient enemy that no longer exists is disgusting.

You Socialists exhibit a hatred for this country that boggles the mind. I hope you don't experience that hatred yourself.

UWS guy said...

Interracial marriage was illegal during your lifetimes.

But no...none of those people who passed those laws, none of those people who supported the politicians who passed those laws, no...none of them are around today.

They don't exist, all those who supported miscegenation laws, and whites only drinking fountains, and dug holes for bigoted signs into cities, why...they're all gone, right? All the children they raised? They didn't get any of those familiy values passed down right?


The civil war analogies thought up in this thread obviously were done with the self-irony button turned to OFF.

Jim said...

Do I think there may be race riots if Obama loses?

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, c'mon, the Los Angeles Lakers won a championship and look what happened there. And that was just a basketball game in which there were no real-life personal stake for anyone involved...The stakes are much higher this time around, and suddenly we're all supposed to act as if there's no history of it having happened or that it's somehow untoward to point out that it might happen again?

Does that mean I'm belittling black people or stereotyping them as a single monolithic group? Absolutely not. But neither am I blind to kind of ridiculous excuses that pass for provocation to riot in certain communities (e.g., Los Angeles).

If a riot were to happen, doesn't that mean that America is racist? Not unless you're talking about the racism of those who would choose to participate in such a riot.

Does that mean anything to me in terms of my voting? Not a bit. And to even raise the spectre in an advocacy piece is to attempt a particularly nasty brand of political blackmail.

What about people who are concerned about the potential for riots? Then I would suggest that the best solution is to prepare those communities for a potential Obama loss in November. Rather than blowing smoke and spraying perfume on the rotting corpse of Obama's election strategy, the media should try letting just a little bit of honesty penetrate their sycophantic coverage of Obama's campaign.

Try analyzing the gross stupidity of their "50 State Strategy" which wasted millions of dollars on advertising and staff in places like Alaska in pursuit of a goal which was never realistic in the first place. Try looking into the amount of time, money and other resources which were diverted from domestic campaigning in favor of the ego-serving premature victory lap across Europe. And so on, and so on...

A sudden shock of bad news can have unpredictable effects on even the most stable communities, so if the media is really concerned about the possibility of a post-election riot then they owe it to the public interest to tell the truth sooner rather than later.

Cedarford said...

If the race is close, you can easily anticipate race hucksters trying to exploit the fear factor of the Althouses out there..."Vote Obama...or else...the seething angry blacks streets will erupt in righteous anger and burn, pillage, and kill!"

You can easily see desperate black radicals, WASP/Jewish media elites, mayors of America's shitholes and university Presidents "warning America" on Nov 1st. Of awful consequences if voters show their "racism" by voting against Obamessiah.

And if cities do burn? I think the reaction will be far different than in the 60s when guilty leaders rushed a plethora of welfare and other goodies to "angry blacks" so they wouldn't be so angry anymore.

Another round and I think the response will be backlash and zero white guilt and zero financial sympathy for blacks and the Left.

=================
yashu said...
Fen, I think it behooves conservatives (and Republicans in general) to recognize and indeed insist that "Black America, of course, is diverse," whatever the current voting statistics are..


Sorry, yashu, voting is one of those bottom line things.

Blacks can talk all they want about how diverse they are, how the barber shop talk rules, how much they have solid family values, hate criminal coddling, cherish religion and hard work and smaller government and charter schools. It all gets the respect it deserves when 95% of blacks automatically vote for a liberal Dem race hustler who opposes all those claims.
=====================

UWS guy said...

You can easily see desperate black radicals, WASP/Jewish media elites

careful guys you're sheets are showing...

Peter V. Bella said...

Blacks in the south were denied voting rights within most of your lifetimes.

Signs outside the city limits of cities said, "N***** don't let the sun set on you here." during most of your lifetimes.

America was an official apartheid nation during most of your lifetimes.



So the only reason we should vote for a totally inexperienced, unqualifed, politically corrupt politician from Chicago is to have racial healing?

OldGrouchy said...

BTW: To all the "Old Troopers" here. Us King's of Battle always thought you "Yellow" legs were too dumb to be grunts or cannon cockers. Riding a horse(Tank, whatever!) all day shakes up your brains. :) :) :)
HAND.

The Drill SGT said...

But no...none of those people who passed those laws, none of those people who supported the politicians who passed those laws, no...none of them are around today.


and your point is?

You need to remember that those were Democrats that passed those laws and Robert Byrd who burned those crosses still give Democrats a majority in the Senate.

garage mahal said...

Quoting from thinkprogress?

Fair, balanced reporting.


I noticed you ignored the actual content and video in the link. What did you think of the Obama Waffles?

OldGrouchy said...

RJ: Yep, Marshal Ney certainly won a major battle at Waterloo! The French King thought so much of the Marshal that he was awarded a special prize!

UWS guy said...

Where did all the dixicrats go when they walked out of the convention?

I guess they all vanished like all those people who thought the whites only drinking fountain tasted extra sweet also.

The Drill SGT said...

RJ: Yep, Marshal Ney certainly won a major battle at Waterloo!

Ney's approach was more grunt or Marine than a Cavalry one. High diddle diddle one more time up the middle!

very un-subtle, very not cavalry :)

paul a'barge said...

Over 90% of black people are going to vote for Obama because Obama is black. That's as racist as any KKK'er strutting around in a bed sheet.

I'm supposed to care about what these people feel? Please. It's 2008. We are the most exceptional nation on the planet. We are a nation of laws and of justice.

Not a nation that has to cower at the thought of a racist minority that threatens us with their temper tantrums ... again.

Every time these folks don't get what they want they burn their own neighborhoods. Keep it up, folks. Keep it up. Please.

Roger J. said...

Alright Grouchy--will concede that Ney lost some of his ability--however, the king of battle remains a support arm.. :)
BTW--we emailed earlier about sand hill--visite there a month ago--all updated and new--Harmony church ranger camp is gone--alas. moved to main post.

Seriously I have always had my trust in red legs--I used to call for fire with "danger close" and your cannon cockers never screwed up. Never. Good men all.

UWS guy said...

" cower at the thought of a racist minority that threatens us"

OldGrouchy said...

A question for the ages: Is it permissible to metaphorically shoot UWS Guy with a "brain pill" load. Nothing truly harmful, although a slight "ouch" might be allowable; no bruising permitted.

While the guy seems to be a committed Socialist, even that type exhibits intelligence from time to time, yet he has not, at least in this post.

Perhaps it's the drinking water in the Madison area, in which case, truckers could make a special run to bring in bottle of Dasani.

MGGSA: does he not have understanding of the issues in this GE or is he simply brain dead?

OldGrouchy said...

RJ: Thanks for the Sand Hill update. I miss those WWI or WWII barracks and the mess halls; We had a great US stoker.

And you're right, Yellow Legs are good soldiers too; Gen'l Custer excepted; Capt Custer was a good soldier too. Maybe too much time spent today in the mythical bar of memories, drinking too much of those long ago spirits.

jdeeripper said...

UWS guy said... The south (and those wanabees who live N, E, W of it) needs another lesson and I hope Obama delivers it.

Bet on those "wanabees".

They're EVERYWHERE.

And their candidates in this election are going to win.

Remember you can't change a country in just one lifetime.

It takes quite a while to redeem a nation of it's sins.

Jesus failed. Maybe Obama will do better.

But I doubt it.

Over 90% of black people are going to vote for Obama because Obama is black.

That's a low number. I'm guessing Obama pulls 97% of the black vote with the highest black turnout ever.

miller said...

I wouldn't trust thinkprogress if they said the sky was blue.

They're a completely in-the-tank-for-progressives (not even honest enough to call themselves liberal anymore) website.

So anything they post is either slanted, untrue, or both.

UWS guy said...

"I do, however, have a large number of firearms and plenty of ammo. Dogs, too"

"
And I agree that Obama is in many ways an unqualified affirmative action pick"
--isn't that redundant?

"I hope Obama's defeat forces them to... continue to scapegoat White America for all their problems."

"black people are.... as racist as any KKK'er strutting around in a bed sheet."

missed all those lynchings of poor southern whites ...all those pentecostal churches burned in the 60's too...

Condoleezza Rice's friends died in a church burning....obviously the men who did that and supported it have magically vanished also.

vbspurs said...

careful guys you're sheets are showing...

Don't you ever equate any commenter here with that loathesome anti-Semite. How he is tolerated by the blog owner when he's been banned from Ace of Spades, for one, is beyond me.

However, your attitude of "you're all secretly racists" is noted.

UWS guy said...

I think my above quotes show that I don't think y'all are keeping anything secret.

miller said...

Your sneer that we're all secretly racists is duly noted.

Thanks for your opinion. It makes us understand things oh so much better.

UWS guy said...

No one denies that blacks, white, hispanics, et cetera can be racist, it's whether those sentiments can be turned into law and public policy.

the only people capable of doing that is the white majority, so they have the onus of being extra careful with what they do with those emotions.

Yes, black racism and victimology hurts blacks, White racism and victimology however ....hurts blacks.

UWS guy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
UWS guy said...

This last section of Blogging Heads with Glen Loury gave me chills.

Glen starts about 3 min into this clip and his frustration is palpable.

Palladian said...

"this last section of blogging heads with Glenn Loury gave me chills it was so good."

Did the chill run up your leg? Are you sure it wasn't a thrill?

B said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

careful guys you're sheets are showing...

I am not a sheet :-)

This mantra that if we don't vote for Obama, we are racists is getting pretty old. Don't you have another drum to beat?

The Jim Crow south is long dead; as are many of those who held those ideas 50 years ago. Dead.

Is there still racism. Of course there is and there always will be. That is the inherited hardwired nature of the human mind (actually all animal minds) to suspect and dislike the "stranger" or those from the other "tribe". Civilized people reject that nature.

When Obama is defeated, I expect to see race riots, and it won't be Caucasians doing the rioting. It will be a collective temper tantrum and concentrated in the mostly urban areas.

blake said...

Black racism also hurts whites, UWS.

But thanks for showing us a preview of November 6th. The "you're all racists" approach is bound to be a social and political winner.

Meanwhile.

Ann's post is just an upfront expression of actual feelings that actual people have. (Anyone remember "Bloom County" where Binkley's dad is staying up late, unable to sleep because he feels like he should vote for Jesse Jackson?)

You aren't going to be able to "That's racist!" her out of it, regardless of what side you're on.

Palladian said...

I was born in 1975. Am I past the age of guilt-ridden burden, Wine Saver Guy?

UWS guy said...

Am I quoting people out of context? Show me.

So far people are going back and forth between blacks are like the KKK on one swing of the pendulum and "the civil rights era was a long time ago and racism and those who support it no longer exist".

ok...pick one, are blacks a violent threatening minority that puts fear in your heart, or does it [problems of racism] not exist anymore?

I'll say again, the people who supported the apartheid laws in america are still alive, they are shamed into silence, but they haven't changed.

miller said...

So what.

Like the left says, it's time to censure and Move on.

Stop with the 40s and 50s guilt. Bambi wasn't even born until Selma, you know.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

So far people are going back and forth between blacks are like the KKK on one swing of the pendulum and "the civil rights era was a long time ago and racism and those who support it no longer exist".

ok...pick one, are blacks a violent threatening minority that puts fear in your heart, or does it [problems of racism] not exist anymore


These are not mutually exclusive concepts. The both can be true. I know...I know...hard for your brain to hold two thoughts at one time...but please do try.

UWS guy said...

Do you take credit for the good your country does Palladian? Do you feel pride that our fathers and father's fathers fought in WW2? As an American do you share the honor of bringing democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq?

How can you then not also feel the opposite when it comes to other aspects of our near history?

You don't have to be culpable to know shame for your countrymen.

GeorgeH said...

Do you worry about what black people will think if Barack Obama loses?
I do. This worry has been a factor in my thinking about whether to vote for Obama,.....


Were you on the OJ jury?

miller said...

I'm glad my country fought two world wars. I'm sorry my country had slaves 170 years ago. I'm glad my country had the cojones to work out its issues with slavery and to pass laws such as the Civil Rights laws of the 1960s (especially since it was with the work of both parties).

There. Can we leave aside the issue of white guilt now? Or do you need a special hall pass?

UWS guy said...

How many years ago did James Byrd Jr. get lynched?

miller said...

I don't know. How many?

UWS guy said...

10 years ago. June 7th.

UWS guy said...

Tied to a pickup truck; dragged to his death and dismembered.

dick said...

UWS,

You really need to study your history more. Long after the South was more or less desegregated the North was still having more problems with segregation. right around 20 years ago in Boston in the area represented by Tip O'Neill, the high school in Charlestown was not permitted to play football games with Roxbury, the Harlem of Boston. The reason was that the last time they had played after several years of fights during the games a Charlestown resident shot at the Roxbury residents and crippled a couple of them. Same area, same time, a white DJ and his 13 year old son stopped to get a slice of pizza in Charlestown with a black musician friend of his. The local residents stoned them and the kid lost and eye and all three were hospitalized. Same town, same time, a black guy stepped into a bar to ask directions. He ended up dead on the sidewalk right outside the bar and nobody knew nothing. Different area, same time, the city of Boston tried to move a black family into a housing development in South Boston. They had their windows shattered every nigh for a week and then they were burned out. A fellow employee with me of a company in Charlestown again, a black man, told me that he could not even get his friends and relatives to come apply in the daytime because it was too dangerous for them in that city. As I say, this was in the district represented by the Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill.

The North is more segregated than the South these days and also more dangerous for either race in the home area of the other race.

At the same time the city that is supposedly the most friendly to African Americans is Columbus, Ohio, not exactly a pillar of the LLL dem political area.

OldGrouchy said...

"Am I quoting people out of context? Show me." This must be the point where you leap up, prancing around the room saying: "See, see, I'm right!"

Well, if that's your thought, go for it. You're by yourself and the some of us are wondering: "Is he the fool or are we by arguing with him?"

You're a fool and we're complementing that by emulating your pathetic behavior. Not a good day for righteousness, eh?

So, shame on us. As for me, I shall stop that practice now. Ciao, baby!

Joe said...

The Drill SGT said...
LOL,

Buford and Reynolds won the war for the Union when they picked the battlefield. :)


My point exactly. Schmidt(Reynolds) chose the ground, McCain(Hancock) has entrenched and deployed his batteries most effectively, and Palin(Chamberlain) has not only secured the flank but served to tie up a great deal of Obama's resources. It's definitely an alt-history Gettysburg, lol, but I think the analogy holds. McCain's going to make Obama kick him off that ridge and Obama (like Lee) can't conceive of walking away from the fight.

Funny, when you think about it Axelrod is sort of like A.P. Hill, a capable general who's simply out of his element as a corps commander (Axelrod is a capable politico who's never run a national campaign before) and if there's a Longstreet on the Democrat's side anywhere it's Bill Clinton, and like Obama isn't listening to him either.

UWS guy said...

Any way, back on topic. I had lunch with a friend last week, his father is black.

He's gone the fatalism route and says he's already mentally and emotionally prepared for an Obama loss on Nov. 4th. He said he will still donate and vote, but after the announcement of Palin he stopped believing America will elect Obama.

UWS guy said...

In fact in his words, he never believed it anyway.

bleeper said...

Facts are facts - I have seen many riots in many ghettos across this country. Never saw one started in Potomac or Los Altos Hills or any other upscale enclave when "their" candidate lost. Also, where I live, 95% of all 911 calls are due to the actions of young black males. Also, the jail is full to overflowing with black inmates. I don't care about why, just know that I will protect myself should evil flow from downtown into my suburb. Not fear, just preparation. Plenty of time at the range. Pray for peace but prepare for war.

UWS guy said...

and no, I didn't have lunch with Obama.

Jim said...

uws -

The difference between you and many of us here is that we do not feel shame at what people did in the past because we have pride in what the people did in the interim to erase those wrongs.

People like you want to forget that part: the part where we, as a society, learned from our mistakes and moved on. That you and other victimhood specialists think we ought to skip over the most recent good to find the most ancient bad speaks more to deficiences in your thinking process and that of your ilk than it does of those who refuse to accept guilt for a long-since corrected situation of which they were not a part and for which they bear no responsibility.

Unless you are trying to tell us that you are in favor of jailing the son of a murderer for the crime of his father, then your entire argument about some sort of obligation for me, or anyone else, to feel shame at the actions of others is just hypocritical posturing on your part.

It is people like you that keep the remnants of racism alive in this country. You want to create a grievance where none exists in order to provoke a supposedly justified anger in the supposedly aggrieved which creates a backlash of anger from those who are being falsely and maliciously accused of wrongdoing. And the cycle repeats and intensifies so long as people like you aren't made the social outcasts that you deserve to be and the transparently false arguments you make aren't strongly rebuffed.

The cycle stops here. The cycle stops now: know that we are on to your game and will no longer stand silent while you knowingly make false accusations against good people who have done no wrong.

Perhaps Obama was right: this election can bring a great deal of racial healing to this country because the over-the-top and obviously false repeated accusations of racism from the Obama campaign have finally created an atmosphere in this country where good people are no longer willing to stand silently while the victimhood crowd poisons another generation with their evil.

In the words of your candidate:

"We have had enough..."

UWS guy said...

"a backlash of anger [by whites] from those who are being falsely and maliciously accused of wrongdoing."

yup yup. I don't even need to comment I think.

UWS guy said...

95% of all 911 calls are due to the actions of young black males. Also, the jail is full to overflowing with black inmates. I don't care about why

UWS guy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
UWS guy said...

again, please correct me if I'm quoting people out of context.

miller said...

I am sorry that James Byrd got lynched. The guys responsible should be tried for murder and if convicted should suffer the penalty for their crimes.

Now, what was your point? That people are still evil?

But I don't need a lynching to prove that. I can just look at Bambi endlessly repeating the lie that McCain wants a 100-year war in Iraq.

That's evil.

Is it the point that white people are still attacking black people? (And that blacks are still attacking whites? And so on and so on...)

Yes. That's still happening.

It is that AmeriKKKa is still as racist as it was when the whites imported the first blacks?

Nonsense.

The Civil War was 170 years ago. I think the issue of slavery is put to bed.

Blacks and women have had the right to vote for years now. They can even run for office and do good (such as Michael Steele) or bad (such as the former mayor of Detroit).

I don't feel a general sense of shame or guilt. I'm actually quite proud of the way America has been changing to become more fair and honest. I see the glass as 95% full.

Can we do more? Maybe. But should we do more when there are other issues?

Calling us all racists and haters is an odd way to get people to see your point of view.

It gets tiresome when people don't stop and say, "You know, America is a pretty good place." Because it is. And America largely has good people who work hard and try to raise their kids right.

Calling them racists and haters doesn't really affect them, but they do tend to think people who make those statements are just a little bit silly and a whole lot ignorant.

UWS guy said...

Why would you assume I'm not arguing from the premise that America is a good country?

I start with that premise.

miller said...

Calling us racists and haters doesn't really jive with calling America a good country, unless you think we are somehow not good Americans.

Perhaps we don't like Bambi due to his inexperience and his stupid policies. (They are stupid, you know. Taking money from the rich to give to the poor works for Robin Hood, but that's a fairy tale.)

Bambi wants to be in charge but has done NOTHING to show he's capable of being in charge. I reject him on the face of that, not for his skin color or his ancestry. I could not care less what shade he is. I care whether his character and his policies would lead to a poorer, weaker America. And because I think they will, I reject him as choice for the presidency.

UWS guy said...

On a peice of brass, it's the tarnish that requires buffing and polish, not the part that already shines.

UWS guy said...

Taxes are for the general welfare, if the general are not well, how does that fare?

or taxes are for the general welfare, if the general are not well, how is that fair?

UWS guy said...

Hate to break it to you, but McCain is a democrat. Which is what makes this such a roashark test.

McCain = amnesty
McCain = repeal bush's tax cuts
McCain = campaign finance regulation

UWS guy said...

Real Conservatives will vote Bob Barr.

UWS guy said...

or Ron Paul...

rhhardin said...

Slavery was nothing to apologize for when it was going on. It stopped when it could no longer be justified, more or less, owing to ideas from Western civilization that Western civilization imposed on itself.

As to the mindset that permitted it, Stanley Cavell tries to reproduce it in The Claim of Reason. I wonder if I can search to it...

Yes! Search Inside on ``slaveowners'' and go to page 372.

It's copied out here as well, though I meant that to get more into his treatment of abortion.

Jim said...

uws -

are you drinking heavily or just heavily self-medicating?

You're making no sense whatsoever.

You dowdified what I was saying about your arguments creating a vicious cycle of racial grievance between blacks and whites to mean what exactly?

Are you saying that people who are falsely accused aren't justified in being angry at the people who knowingly make those false allegations? Or in your world are the falsely accused supposed to be happy about being the subject of outright lies?

Please do tell us about the color of the sky in your world because it obviously isn't the same one the rest of us are inhabiting...

rhhardin said...

con't, and continue with the slaveowner result indexed to p375.

They want you to buy the book instead of reading it online.

UWS guy said...

Gandalf was a community organizer; Sauron was a governor.

Jim said...

uws -

Ahh...that explains a lot...

No doubt living in the Mines of Moria lo these many centuries has affected your ability to see things clearly...

I wondered what happened to you after Gandalf knocked that bridge out from beneath you...

...now we know...

Palladian said...

"Real Conservatives will vote Bob Barr."

No, stupid people will vote Bob Barr.

UWS guy said...

Wittgenstein!

reminds me of the joke about Pat Buchanan and liking his speeches better in the original German.

UWS guy said...

So you've already sent in your ballot anti-paladin?

Palladian said...

"So you've already sent in your ballot anti-paladin?"

No, Ultra Wino Salvager Guy! Not sure how they vote in that miserable state of yours, but here in New York no one's voting yet.

But here's a tip: REAL progressives vote for Ralph Nader. Tell your friends.

jdeeripper said...

UWS guy said... How many years ago did James Byrd Jr. get lynched?

Several years before Eve Carson got lynched. Not sure the exact year.

But many years after Willie Horton went on his racist rampage.

I think a comparison of interracial violent crime rates would be interesting when discussing race and racism in America.

It a subject blacks and their White liberal allies have extreme difficulty dealing with.

But your paranoia and racial panic are predictable. We're talking about Brack Obama losing to John McCain/Sarah Palin and your brain is fevered with thoughts of lynchings, anti-miscegenation laws, apartheid and speeches made in German.

Be a man, put down the wine bottle and come to terms with your problems.

You obviously have deep seated emotional problems that go beyond your frustrations with politics.

UWS guy said...
Any way, back on topic. I had lunch with a friend last week, his father is black.

He's gone the fatalism route and says he's already mentally and emotionally prepared for an Obama loss on Nov. 4th. He said he will still donate and vote, but after the announcement of Palin he stopped believing America will elect Obama.


Sounds like you might have been talking to yourself.

George said...

With respect, Professor, I do not worry what 'black people' will think if Barack Obama loses.

I cannot presume that 'black people' as a group think the same way any more than I presume to think retired Navy officers think the same way or Alaskan women think the same way.

I did not see people asking that question when Fred Thompson was running. No one worried if not voting for Fred would hurt the feelings of tall, ugly men.

yashu said...

(UWS, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the persons you've quoted on this thread is a troll/Moby. It's unfair to take some of those comments as representative of the regular commenters here.)

William said...

I'll start with my own DNA. The Irish theory of evil is that it was a phenomenon created and perpetuated by the British. There's something to that theory. During the potato failure, one out of seven people in Ireland starved to death. When they moved here, they faced hardship and discrimination. Despite their meagre circumstances, the Irish still found the energy and will necessary to burn down a Negro orphanage during the draft riots in NYC....My point is that there is no excluded middle. It is possible to be guilty of oppression even while you are being oppressed....I think one of the most debilitating effects of colonialism is that it causes the colonized people to be blind both to their own weaknesses and to the strengths of the colonial power. Michael Collins, the IRA leader, refused to play cricket or soccer because they were "British garrison" sports. DeValera (born in NYC to Cuban father) wanted Gaelic to be the sole and exclusive language of Ireland....I see that same kind of wounded, nationalist pride in the Rev Wright. I heard an excerpt from one of his sermons where he damned Jefferson as a pedophile. There was a Zulu king who lived several generations after Jefferson. When his mother died the Zulu king was so upset that he ordered all of his 2000 wives to be put to death. Jefferson raised an ideal of liberty for America that he himself imperfectly followed, and that America has imperfectly tried to realize. No king in Africa ever raised that ideal.....I am not knocking African kings or Irish nationalists. I just think being American is a better way.

yashu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
yashu said...

(The person I suspect of being a troll is "bleeper.")

Peter V. Bella said...

UWS guy,

Do you, as a good Democrat, feel proud of your only cannonzied saint, FDR? The man who acted like Hitler and put AMerican citizens in internment camps. Japanese, German, and Italian American citizens? They lost their property and all their personal posessions; the things they worked for. Does FD fucking R make you proud to be a Democrat?

Were you proud that they put a statue of him up? Have you made your pilgrimage there yet?

Cedarford said...

UWS guy said... "How many years ago did James Byrd Jr. get lynched?"

Several years before Eve Carson got lynched. Not sure the exact year.

But many years after Willie Horton went on his racist rampage.

I think a comparison of interracial violent crime rates would be interesting when discussing race and racism in America.

It a subject blacks and their White liberal allies have extreme difficulty dealing with.


Indeed. The 60s Left, blacks, and radical Jewish-owned portion of the media developed a crime narrative of hard-working people only driven to crime by desperate poverty and class subjugation, of blacks cowering in fear of racist whites everywhere.

The truth is very hard for them to swallow.

In the "Color of Crime", the stats show black crime exploding AFTER the Civil Rights Era and equal job opportunity and LBJ's great transfer of wealth and services and affirmative action to blacks.

Black men are 35 times more likely to do armed robbery than white or Asian men. Blacks account for 53% of all murders in the US, and almost half of stranger rapes of white women and over half rapes of Asian ladies.

Nor are high black crime rates unusual and restricted to just the USA for it's "shameful past injustices" but on a par with what blacks do in other Advanced nations.

And the white crime rates in the USA, are comparable to whites in Canada, Europe, even the Noble Swedes themselves - except for a slightly higher murder rate (due to a combination of guns and certain whites "honor code"). And the white on black crime rates and Asian on black crime rates are low...extremely low. So low that in certain years while half of stranger rapes on whites and Asians are by blacks, the DOJ, nationally, had no recordable rapes on black women by those ethnicities.

But the 60s narrative still gets screeched out - 1000 violent black
assaults on fellow blacks or other races are "tragedies" - but the one white on black violent crime that happened "is a lynching".

Eve Carson was white, blonde, pretty and could be taken by predators looking for just such a target.
A "tragedy".
James Byrd was a -somehow - unavenged "lynching" even though the three killers are all on death row.
The Chattanooga Horror? The actions of the Carr brothers in Kansas City? Just "senseless tragedies" in PC-land.

Windbag said...

I doubt anyone is reading at this point, but I don't care what blacks will think *when* Obama loses by a landslide in November. All the blacks I know are conservative and rooting for his defeat.

Synova said...

"No one denies that blacks, white, hispanics, et cetera can be racist, it's whether those sentiments can be turned into law and public policy."

You're wrong. It is most certainly denied that minorities can even *be* racist *because* their sentiments can not be turned into policy. I think most people have more reasoning ability and less agenda, but the minority who insist this is true are significant.

"the only people capable of doing that is the white majority, so they have the onus of being extra careful with what they do with those emotions."

Because... racism isn't actually bad. Prejudice and hating isn't actually *bad*. We don't need to eliminate these things where they exist, we only need to keep on the white majority, no matter *what* they think, even if they *aren't* racist.

"Yes, black racism and victimology hurts blacks, White racism and victimology however ....hurts blacks."

Bull sh*t.

Black racism does what racism always does. It perpetuates itself and causes a rot deep within our shared national psyche. It hurts everyone.

And pointing to "back-lash" by people who are fed up with being accused of racism... not because they are racist but because it's only the ability to influence policy and not actual beliefs and they just happen to be part of the "oppressor class" as an *example* of racism?

Maybe this is why Obama doesn't see any problem with projecting and predicting that people are going to use racial attacks against him and WHEN THEY OBJECT TO BEING CALLED RACISTS he and other black columnists I've read see this as proof that they ARE racists.

I guess in order to NOT be a racist a person has to publicly say and accept that they ARE?

Drown the witch... if she drowns she wasn't a witch.

Lovely.

Terry said...

Possibly the most ignorant thing America could do is elect the reincarnation of Jimmy Carter due largely to white guilt.

Do I expect problems? Yeah, I do. Do I worry about it? No, I do not. There are those that simply cannot be helped.

Remember that the Democratic party has for decades now brilliantly shown up in the ghettos every four years to encourage African-Americans to vote them into office to save them. The irony, which seems to be lost on millions, is that they do this to the same people every four years.

David said...

I will say it again.

Obama has the advantage of a lock on nearly 100% of the votes of African Americans, who are about 11% of the electorate. Thus, Obama's race gives him a tremendous advantage because there is no chance that McCain can cut into this group.

He has many other advantages, most of which are functions of his personal ability and charisma.

But he has made two terrible mistakes recently.

The first is his failure to have real programatic change that matches his rhetorical calls for change. All it has been is a return to old liberal principles.

The second has been a terrible response to the Palin nomination. Instead of ignoring her, as he should, he has attacked her, thus diminishing himself.

He is running as an original, and looks like a retread, and for President, and looks vice-Presidential.

David said...

And why are all these commentors talking about riots if Obama loses?

There won't be riots if he loses. Not a chance.

The impact will be a lot more subtle, and more long lasting, than the consequence of a riot.

miller said...

I think another thing that MIGHT happen is that some of the members of the community that reliably vote "Democrat" might be persuaded that the Democrat Party is no friend of theirs.

If the Republican Party is smart (but they usually aren't) they will be working on this segment right now.

The Republican Party is the party of Lincoln. It's time to promote that message.

Vercingetorix said...

I DO worry about what they think. My neighborhood in 80% black ... of course ... all terrific people and I love them to death. We got real close after Hurricane Katrina while trying to recover and rebuild.

But they are all for Obama. I don't have a "McCain" sign in my yard ... nor do I put a "McCain" bumper sticker on my car. In spite of their support for Obama - I've yet to see an Obama sign in the neighborhood (dunno ... maybe political signs are against the homeowner's association rules).

I DO have a "thank you president bush" bumper sticker ... because in my opinion ... had Al Gore been in office on 9-11 this country might not exist right now. So I think Bush deserves some thanks. This sticker is about all I can do although i will write him a nice letter before he leaves office.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"Real Conservatives will vote Bob Barr."

No, stupid people will vote Bob Barr.

Palladian. You are rapidly becoming one of my favorite commentators.

Fen said...

Jim: The difference between you and many of us here is that we do not feel shame at what people did in the past because we have pride in what the people did in the interim to erase those wrongs.

People like you want to forget that part: the part where we, as a society, learned from our mistakes and moved on.


You nailed it. Cultures evolve, as ours has. But the grievance-mongers would damn the Founders for not considering Animal Rights when they drafted the constitution.