Althouse: "Thousands of revelers... carried posters of former President Bill Clinton, and chanted 'Thank You U.S.A.!' and 'God Bless America.'"

February 17, 2008

"Thousands of revelers... carried posters of former President Bill Clinton, and chanted 'Thank You U.S.A.!' and 'God Bless America.'"

Oh, they're just trying to help Hillary.

Just kidding. Kosovo has issued its Declaration of Independence today.

53 comments:

Simon said...: I find it faintly amusing that back when we intervened militarily in Kosovo, most of my friends to my left - not the fringe, mind you, who never met a genocide they don't like, but the more sensible ones - joined me in arguing that it was unequivocally the right thing to do, and my friends on the right knashed their teeth and said how awful it was. And then in Iraq, most of my friends to my right joined me in arguing that it was unequivocally the right thing to do, and my friends on the left knashed their teeth and said how awful it was. I guess that either makes me a moderate or a warmonger, one or the other!; 2/17/08, 11:26 AM
Bissage said...: It's wrong to celebrate because violence never solved anything.; 2/17/08, 11:33 AM
Anonymous said...: Simon, I also have a reasonable lefty friend, and I once asked him, seriously, what are the criteria for a morally acceptable American military intervention? He thought about it for a couple of minutes (the question, that is; obviously he'd thought about the underlying issue for years), and to paraphrase his reply, he basically said: I trust American military intervention when America has no possible commercial interests in the region.

Now, you might think this is a questionable doctrine—I certainly do; we aren't actually in the habit of, e.g. taking over the oil fields when we go into places like Iraq—but it actually does help explain why an intervention in Kosovo is acceptable and an intervention in Iraq is not.; 2/17/08, 11:40 AM
Simon said...: Love Marta Costello's take on Putin's reaction.; 2/17/08, 11:51 AM
Simon said...: Bissage - I'd paraphrase my comment here and say that to the contrary, as a historical matter, violence has ended up solving virtually everything. It's not always led to the outcome the instigator might have preferred, but still.

Paul - I don't think that's necessarily a bad criterion at all, and if you start from the paradigm that it can never be morally justified to go to war for self-interest, but war fought for purely altruistic reasons may be. I'm skeptical of the premise, as you are, but I can understand the reasoning.; 2/17/08, 12:01 PM
Ralph L said...: celebrate the end of a long and bloody struggle for national self-determination.
The NYT reporter thinks this is the end, when they've been fighting for thousands of years? Is it just because the German Army is there?; 2/17/08, 12:11 PM
rhhardin said...: Kosovo bombing briefing from Imus, April 6, 1999.; 2/17/08, 12:18 PM
rhhardin said...: Popular Beach Boys song Kosovo , Imus, April 1, 1999; 2/17/08, 12:21 PM
ricpic said...: Another gift from the Clintons: a muslim state in the heart of Europe.; 2/17/08, 12:34 PM
Bissage said...: Simon, here's some friendly advice. And I'm on-the-level, here, because I've come to think of you as a bright, thoughtful and studious commenter at Althouse who might, nevertheless, benefit from not always taking everything so literally.

First, when someone makes a bold statement with sweeping implications that is obviously false, stop and ask yourself whether you have good reason to so quickly conclude you are so much smarter than that person.

Second, if that doesn't work, click on the link provided and see if maybe that ought not be read in pari materia with the comment.

You might find you've gained something from the endeavor.; 2/17/08, 12:58 PM
titusisgay said...: Sorry Althouse Titus is in fact gay.

Believe it or not many gay men had sexual experiences with women when they are young. Like many straight men had gay sexual experiences when they are young.

I appreciates women's tits. Many gays do. I love women, many gays do.

My first gay bar was "Going My Way" in Madison when I was 15. The place is still a vacant building on the square-very cool inside. I also went to the New Bar, Rods, Hotel Washington complex all the time in high school until I got bored and realized I needed to live in a bigger city. I did love that afterhours restaurant there though-what was it called? I marched in the Madison Scouts in the rifle line which is very gay. I danced one season when I was 16 for the Kanopy Dance Company in Madison-also very gay. I had to see a psychologist to get out of gym because I was beat up in high school-also very gay.

I am disgusted that you would think that I was straight. Honey, I am gayer than a three dollar bill.

I demand that you apolgize.; 2/17/08, 1:54 PM
titusisgay said...: Cafe Palms was the name of the restaurant- I loved it there. What was the name of the bar downstairs-not Rods but the one where breeders could go? I went there too for Long Island Ice Teas when I was 16.

I would drive to Milwaukee to go to Park Avenue on Sundays (gay night); La Cage, CeLaVie (jeffrey dalmers hangout).

Then I got bored with Miwaukee while still in high school and would drive to Chicago to go to all kinds of clubs.

By the time I was 17 I had seen it all and was ready to leave the midwest.

When I lived in Boston I also frequented the gay bars Buddies, Chaps Ramrod Napoleons and Josephines, JOX,-could those names of bars be any gayer?

While living in San Francisco I didn't go out much because I was in a relationship.

When I moved to NYC I would go out to the Mineshaft,

I still miss Wisconsin. I love the "Supper Clubs" out there. Fish Frys, fatty foods, french fried everything-including cheesecurds=yum.; 2/17/08, 2:05 PM
Maxine Weiss said...: Could you please do another thread on incestuous intrigue?

We haven't wringed (wrung?) every issue out of that thrilling topic yet.

It's a good traffic-builder, and you know, everyone has cousins.; 2/17/08, 2:09 PM
Maxine Weiss said...: Not Amba. Not Ruth Anne. Not even her own children will tell Althouse the truth.

Palladian thinks it's insubordination, but I see myself as a kind of Consigliere.

I'm the only one willing to tell Althouse what she doesn't want to hear.; 2/17/08, 2:12 PM
tjl said...: "When I lived in Boston I also frequented the gay bars Buddies, Chaps Ramrod Napoleons and Josephines"

Judging by Titus' bar list, he's far older than he lets on. Most of these places were demolished decades ago.

By the way, casual readers of these comment threads should not assume from Titus' posts that solipsism is a necessary part of being gay.; 2/17/08, 2:44 PM
Clyde said...: Ricpic, given that the Muzzies have taken over France (burn, Citroen, burn!), Denmark (cartoon riots), the Netherlands (Van Gogh slashed to death), Spain and Britain (bombs blowing up trains and Tube stations), I don't see letting them have their own country in Europe as that big a deal. The horse has already bolted from that burning barn, to cuisinart a metaphor.; 2/17/08, 2:57 PM
Simon said...: Bissage - we weren't disagreeing. I was trying to underline your point, not refute it. :); 2/17/08, 3:12 PM
Simon said...: Clyde - re Holland, resistance is brewing.; 2/17/08, 3:12 PM
somefeller said...: Ricpic, given that the Muzzies have taken over France (burn, Citroen, burn!), Denmark (cartoon riots), the Netherlands (Van Gogh slashed to death), Spain and Britain (bombs blowing up trains and Tube stations), I don't see letting them have their own country in Europe as that big a deal.

Under that logic, I guess the Muslims (or, to be precise, Islamic fundamentalists or Islamists) have taken over the US already, since they destroyed the World Trade Center towers, which was of course a much bigger deal than all the incidents you cite combined, and which in your view constitute a takeover or near-takeover of the nations in question.

A few riots and homicides are serious business which must be dealt with firmly, but they don't make a revolution.; 2/17/08, 3:19 PM
Clyde said...: Somefeller, 9/11 was a "one-off" that the Muslims haven't been able to follow up on in the U.S. In Europe, it's just one thing after another, constantly. Western European countries have large, burgeoning Muslim populations that are outbreeding the native Europeans. See any Mark Steyn article for evidence to back up that claim.

I saw a link the other day to some kind of French "hero mother" picture, showing women who had four or five kids. Out of the group of 8 or 9 women in the picture, all but one were wearing head scarves. Make of that what you will.; 2/17/08, 3:27 PM
somefeller said...: Most European countries aren't having Islamist terrorist incidents constantly, and for a "one-off", 9/11 was a pretty big deal. The IRA did more damage in the UK during its heyday than Islamic fundamentalists have done thus far in the UK, and in the case of situations like the riots in France, let's not confuse street crime and thuggery from the lower classes (which in this case happen to be Muslim) with an impending revolution. Further, while Muslim birthrates in Europe may be higher than the average now, you're assuming that will continue to be the case going forward, for both sides.

Again, the issue of Islamist terrorism is a serious one, but the Eurabia nonsense that Steyn and company like to promote is just an exercise in hysterics.; 2/17/08, 3:35 PM
Cabbage said...: The thing that always bugged me is that Kosovo has only been majority-albanian since Tito moved a bunch of them there post WWII.; 2/17/08, 3:42 PM
Maxine Weiss said...: Today's subject is tipping.

People that provide a service are tipped.

But, should you tip a nurse? Aren't they providing a service? And, if they don't do a good job....

It seems that tipping nurses is just good insurance

Police officers should be tipped, if you want them to help you better.

What do you think ?; 2/17/08, 3:58 PM
Mrs. Hermoine Stottlemeyer said...: I think Maxine should be thrown out of here !

Hermoine; 2/17/08, 4:04 PM
Maxine Weiss said...: Negro, negro negro negro negro

negro, negro negro negro negro
negro, negro negro

Negress?; 2/17/08, 4:11 PM
Mrs. Cora Ann Mapleton said...: That's it. I've really had it. I can't continue to patronize this blog. Why must the denizens of the Althouse Community be incessantly subjected to the disagreeable presence and vulgarity of Maxine ?

I will not return.

Cora Ann; 2/17/08, 4:13 PM
Bildo said...: But, should you tip a nurse? Aren't they providing a service? And, if they don't do a good job....

I would heavily tip the right nurse who did a really good job.; 2/17/08, 4:31 PM
Maxine Weiss said...: Firemen are tipped all the time.

Talk to the residents of Malibu.; 2/17/08, 4:35 PM
MadisonMan said...: titus, I think you're thinking of the Barber's Closet.

I went to Cafe de Palms exactly once, and was disappointed by the food.; 2/17/08, 4:42 PM
MadisonMan said...: maxine, after we got home after our son was in the hospital after birth, we sent coffee cake to the nurse's station. Not a monetary tip, just a thanks for your excellent care coffee cake.; 2/17/08, 4:45 PM
Maxine Weiss said...: There's really not that much difference between tipping and bribery.; 2/17/08, 5:33 PM
Paddy O said...: There's really not that much difference between tipping and bribery.

Sure there is. Timing.

Bribes usually go before.

Tips come after.

That's why people who bribe have to be tougher, just in case the service doesn't match the cost. The bribee knows what they've been paid and they have to live up to it. No mystery for them.

Tippers just are responding to what's already been done. Thus leading to assessment on both sides. The tippee and the tipper are both judging each other and throughout the whole process are assessing the potential transaction.

Tipping is a significantly more dynamic process, though there is risk with both. A bribe entails the risk of money paid and imperfect service. While a tip entails the risk of a great service with an imperfect tip. Thus the customer really is always better served with tipping, but of course a bribe is altogether more motivating.; 2/17/08, 6:05 PM
AllenS said...: There is no bribe big enough to get me to tip Maxine.; 2/17/08, 6:27 PM
Chip Ahoy said...: You crack me up!

*gets spackle and sandpaper*

*fixes cracks*; 2/17/08, 6:37 PM
Chip Ahoy said...: Don't bother me for a moment, I'm looking up in pari materia; 2/17/08, 6:45 PM
Anonymous said...: somefeller said: "Again, the issue of Islamist terrorism is a serious one, but the Eurabia nonsense that Steyn and company like to promote is just an exercise in hysterics."

You would then be placing yourself on some plane of knowledge and understanding above Steyn, I take it, from which you clearly see a larger and more accurate picture? Or, you could just be stating your ignorant, preferred view of the situation. Easy choice for the audience, I think.; 2/17/08, 6:47 PM
Bildo said...: But would you tip a hot nurse?; 2/17/08, 6:58 PM
Trooper York said...: Anne Osborne: You're a cop for God's sake, you're supposed to uphold the law, but instead you bend it and twist it and sell it. I saw you take that bribe and, and resist arrest and tamper with evidence and perjure yourself under oath.
Remy McSwain: Don't forget I ran a red light too, huh.
Anne Osborne: You still think it's funny, don't you? Why don't you just face it, Remy? You're not one of the good guys anymore.
(The Big Easy, 1987); 2/17/08, 7:00 PM
Bildo said...: No you're not a cop for God's sake.
You're just lying there in the hospital all screwed up.
Don't you want a cute nurse to make everything better?; 2/17/08, 7:15 PM
Maxine Weiss said...: Paddy O: You seem to be saying that a bribe is a quasi-contract, and a tip is a gift.

If a bribe is accepted, performance then becomes an obligation.

A tip does not carry any such obligations.; 2/17/08, 7:15 PM
somefeller said...: You would then be placing yourself on some plane of knowledge and understanding above Steyn, I take it, from which you clearly see a larger and more accurate picture? Or, you could just be stating your ignorant, preferred view of the situation. Easy choice for the audience, I think.

Well, I'm just a simple country lawyer and not some kinda big international journalist like Mark Steyn, but using my meager analytic skills, I think I can see that Steyn is just another blowhard who is out peddling bigotry and hysteria, wrapped up in poor demographic analysis. I'm not alone in that view, and you can find a more detailed response here, as annotated here.

As far as my alleged ignorance goes, well, I'll defer to your judgment on that point, as I'm sure you're more familiar with the topic of ignorance than I am.; 2/17/08, 8:31 PM
titusisgay said...: Judging by Titus' bar list, he's far older than he lets on. Most of these places were demolished decades ago.

I am 37-I never "lead on" that I was anything other than that.

Buddies turned into Buzz-Buddies closed in the mid early 90's when I was in college in Boston. Buzz which turned into Buddies closed about a year ago.

Napoleons closed in the mid to late 90's-I think.

Chaps closed a year ago or so but still has a gay night on Wednesday-a friend of my DJ's there on Wednesday.

Ramrod is still open.

Not of those bars closed "decades ago".; 2/17/08, 8:38 PM
Paddy O said...: You seem to be saying that a bribe is a quasi-contract, and a tip is a gift.

Oh, no. A tip isn't a gift. It's a payment based on perceived service. A bribe is a payment based on expected service.

Thus a tip is something that is negotiated throughout the process, with the final payment giving definition to the prior service received. It defines what had been previously nebulous. Sort of like observing a quantum particle.

A bribe lays out the expectation and there is a settled understanding of what does and does not constitute fulfillment. A bribe is very concrete in this way.

Tips entail much more mystery. But there is still the expectation at the beginning of the transaction that there will be some sort of payment. Thus it is neither a gift nor is it an actualized contract. Instead the fulfilled payment of the services can potentially fluctuate between 0 and the full worth of the tipper's estate, based on a less than infinite number of factors which may or may not include any culturally settled notions of approved service.

Isaac Newton would have been much more comfortable with bribes than tips. But as modernity has passed away, bribing has become increasingly passé. So we, embracing uncertainty, love to tip whoever we can, especially here in America.

This is also why bribery is so prevalent in countries that have had a hard time moving beyond modernity, or are stuck in pre-modern thinking. They cannot abide the fluctuating probabilities of potential unrealized remuneration.

Tipping is a sign of societal advancement. But it is certainly not a gift.; 2/17/08, 8:39 PM
titusisgay said...: I also started going out very young. I couldn't even drive in Madison when I went out-age 15. I saw Divine perform at the patio at Rods the summer of 1987. I graduated from high school 1989.

I started going out to bars in Boston when I was 18 which was in 1998-I had a fake id from a friend of mine.

I am old enough honey-by biological clock is ticking.

As far as my punctation/grammar get over it TJL.; 2/17/08, 8:41 PM
titusisgay said...: Also Jox closed about a year ago also bitch. Again, none of those bars closed "decades ago". Deacades would mean more than one and Buddies would of closed in the early to mid 90's. I was in Beantown from 89-96 and it was open most of that time.

Now wheres my apology Althouse.

Yes, Barbers Closet, I loved it there. I also knew Rodney Shields, the owner of Rods, rest her soul.

By the way I just went to work out with a friend of mine and had sex in the sauna with a big black guy. We just rubbed our dicks together but it was enough for both of us to cum.; 2/17/08, 8:48 PM
titusisgay said...: "I started going out to bars in Boston when I was 18 which was in 1998-I had a fake id from a friend of mine."

Sorry I meant 1990.; 2/17/08, 8:49 PM
titusisgay said...: Also from the ages of 33-45 is the prime age of the gays in NYC.

At that point in your life you still have your looks and you finally are making money to do things.

Other cities may value the younger twink gays but in NYC mid 30's to early 40's is primetime.; 2/17/08, 8:54 PM
Finn Alexander Kristiansen said...: ricpic said...
Another gift from the Clintons: a muslim state in the heart of Europe.

I do wonder two things:

1) Will Kosovo end up different than the typical Islamic state or be a breeding ground to export conflict. We get rather jolly and giddy over who we support, only to see them revert to some sort of unexpected mean.

2) Is it hypocritical to support ethnic or religious secession movements selectively, and would the U.S. be so supportive if say, Texas turned majority hispanic and wanted to secede, or Mississippi with blacks?

This is much less about democracy than ethnic self rule, and that can come back to bite you all around the world (as Putin has pointed out).; 2/17/08, 8:57 PM
Finn Alexander Kristiansen said...: Oh, and I have no thoughts to offer yet on gay clubs, tipping versus bribes, or why Michael Jackson's brother moved Albanians to Kosovo.

(What? what? Ohhh, a different Tito. Nevermind).; 2/17/08, 9:06 PM
Simon said...: Finn Kristiansen said...
"Is it hypocritical to support ethnic or religious secession movements selectively[?]"

That depends on the philosophical premises whence you support secession movements.

"and would the U.S. be so supportive if say, Texas turned majority hispanic and wanted to secede, or Mississippi with blacks?"

That's a rather different situation. Under this Constitution, there's no right of secession, at least in the sense of unilaterally doing so. That question's entirely settled.; 2/17/08, 9:14 PM
Finn Alexander Kristiansen said...: Simon says:

"That's a rather different situation. Under this Constitution, there's no right of secession, at least in the sense of unilaterally doing so. That question's entirely settled."

Oh Simon. How many nations actually have secession rules written into their constitutions or national charters? How simplistic of you to settle it so easily.; 2/17/08, 10:49 PM
Crimso said...: SCOTUS ruled secession illegal.; 2/18/08, 8:00 AM
Crimso said...: The Confederate Constitution did not include a right to secede. This seems ironic, until one realizes that their logic was that the right to secede was self-evident and need not be explicitly stated.; 2/18/08, 8:03 AM