So I said, in the previous post. And one reason I said it was because I'd already opened a tab for a second article on the home page of the NYT today: "Where Have All My Deep Male Friendships Gone? I have many guy friends. Why don’t we hang out more?"
Part of what changed, says Rhaina Cohen, the author of “The Other Significant Others: Reimagining Life With Friendship at the Center,” is that norms around marriage shifted. For most of human history, marriages were arranged by family, or motivated by economic convenience, not driven by romantic love. Your spouse was the person you built a home with, raised kids with, went out into society with — not necessarily someone you shared your deepest fears, insecurities, desires and dreams with. That’s what your friends were for. They were your soul mates.
“There was a norm around sentimentality being a core part of masculinity in the 18th and 19th centuries,” says Cohen. “In letter-writing manuals at the time, men were encouraged to be expressive about their feelings for their friends.” Think about that: The ability to openly express affection was once a key indicator of masculinity. Nowadays, of course, manhood is measured by the opposite capacity — strong, silent repression.
***
That makes me want to take the off-ramp into this other NYT article I have open in a tab: "These Founding Fathers Were Frenemies. Maybe We Can Learn Something. Can the fraught relationship between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams help heal our own hyper-polarized politics? Monticello is betting yes." Kind of a travel article, really. Like all travel articles in the NYT, it's for women. Frenemies. Do men talk like that? But this is interesting:
Monticello’s research shows it draws a broad mix of visitors from across the political spectrum, including more conservatives than other historic houses and museums, whose visitors skew more liberal than American adults as a whole. For some here, that reality was driven home on Jan. 7, 2021, when people stopped by for tours on their way home from Washington, wearing shirts and hats from the “Stop the Steal” rally the day before.
Oh! The crazy insurrections! Interested in Thomas Jefferson! Who could have imagined?
Sam Saunders, a retired civil engineer who has been a guide for nine years, said that was a challenging day at Monticello, though there were no incidents, and it was impossible to know if any of those visitors were among those who had gone on to storm the Capitol after the rally.
“Maybe some of the fuss was in our own emotions,” he said. And even on normal days, he added, it was important not to pass judgment on visitors based on hats, clothing or other cues. “You can’t assume people feel a certain way,” he said.
In the buddy comedies I watched growing up, there was sometimes a moment, played for humor and pathos, when the two friends finally shed their masculine armor.... Take “Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure”... Ted... nestles his head in the crook of Bill’s neck — but then they quickly pull back. They eye each other suspiciously, and then simultaneously, disgustedly, say: “Fag.” And then they carry on, happily bantering again, as if nothing happened..... I must have watched [that scene] a hundred times, and the message I absorbed must have been something along the lines of: If you’re a dude, you can get close — but not too close — to your friends.
The NYT is emitting just a soupçon of homophobia this morning. So onto the details of Graham-Felsen's heterosexuality:
In my late 20s, I moved in with my longtime girlfriend, whom I married soon after. Being married meant I could no longer go gallivanting around with my boys whenever I wanted to — but by then, I had largely lost the taste for gallivanting around. It was easier to stay in my warm, cozy apartment and watch prestige TV with my wife than brave the cold, filthy subways and blow money at stinky bars. I was becoming more committed to writing and wanted to wake up early, without a hangover, and get to work on a novel. My friends were still important to me, but not that important. My empathic wife (who is an editor at this magazine) was fulfilling pretty much all my emotional needs.
Including the emotional need to get this piece published? But let's carry on, happily blogging again, as if no unkindly suspicions had suddenly burgeoned.
Then we had our first child.... My wife suggested that I find some friends at the playground, but almost all the caretakers there were moms....
LOL. That's the plot of my ex-husband's third novel. Published in 1988.
Eventually my loneliness started to eat into my confidence as a writer, and this made me even more reluctant to see my friends.... I was seriously struggling, and my writing came to a standstill. I started to see myself as an unemployed washout, living off my wife, contributing squat to the world, increasingly unpresent for my son.
Well, that's your novel right there, but the problem is only women read novels about that sort of thing, and your perspective is male. Who will read this?
These were just the sorts of anxieties I once would have shared with a good friend.... [I]nstead of picking up the phone and calling someone, I picked up the phone and clicked on podcasts. I listened to so many episodes of so many podcasts....
The new male friendship is your friendship with the podcaster. And you know his name:
In late 2018, I found something that finally resonated. And I found it on — alas — “The Joe Rogan Experience.”... And while many of his ideas made me wince, I found myself spellbound by his voracious curiosity.... The weave of these yap fests reminded me of what it was like when I had hours of open-ended time with my own friends....
Blah blah blah and he "ended up working out for over 1,000 straight days," but he was still lonely. He found another podcast, “Man of the Year,” which stressed "social fitness" and gave advice like "be the friend," which got him doing the obvious, calling up friends and arranging to get together. The article ends with a description of one get-together with an old-friend guy: "we had no problem talking honestly. We didn’t empty our souls, the way my wife and her friends might do with one another. That was OK; we related on our own terms. I felt free and easy the whole night, afloat in the presence of an old friend’s unjudgmental love."
So your wife and her friends "empty [their] souls"? Did you and your friend follow the "byzantine bylaw" "No talking about wives"? But does she talk about you? What is this difference? What are these varying depths? When is it too shallow and what are your wives doing out there? Emptying?
80 comments:
Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. So what?
I'm assuming he lives in New York City. Want more friends? Get out to the real world. If you choose to live in a concrete hive noted for its rudeness you have no real basis for your complaints.
Yes, totally not gay.
I always get distrustful when some X-burt tells that back in the 19th or 18th century so and so happened. Yes, people did a lot of things 120 or 240 years ago. But they stopped doing them. Mostly, because the "new way" of doing things was better or fitted the advance in industrialization and modernization.
And were marriages in the USA, in the 18th century driven by "economic convience" with men being close-lipped to their wives and spilling their guts to their friends? Somehow I doubt that. I don't think Daniel Boone or George Washington were chit-chatting with their "Friends" about their "deepest fears".
Nerd!
""No. No talking about wives."
First rule of the fight club.
What a bizarre world New York has become. So insulated. So provincial. So...unto itself. It likes to think of itself as the center of the world, but honestly, it comes off as a giant waiting room for therapy.
If you've ever been one of those people who wonder way gay people seem to feel the need to tell you they're gay and why they don't just keep their private life private like everyone else, this article and the article blogged in the previous post show you why your premise is wrong. Heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual. Just start noticing.
So, this guys rather odd take is because he's in an odd circumstance. He's a writer, working at home. Its not clear what his wife does, but she's no longer fufilling all his "Emotional Needs". He's lonely, and wants some Bro time.
Understandable. But very atypical. And BTW, who watches a scene from a movie "hundreds of times"? Probably a guy sitting at home, doing nothing, and with lots of time on his hands. Like this guy.
Proving you are not gay used to be a valued pastime for men.
If you showed a kid your penis, you would get your ass kicked, and likely get run out of town. Now you get a parade. Times have changed, men have responded. Every boy used to know without reservation what a good man was, even before he understood the physical difference. Today, there is confusion and disagreement in it's place. In the past , very few men would describe their male friendships like this, or even think of it.
Lincoln was very close to Speed.
Althouse: "...the problem is only women read novels about that sort of thing, and your perspective is male. Who will read this?" Not women. Because we all know that readers cannot be expected to identify with protagonists who do not look, speak and think just like the reader. (Well, if said reader is a woman. If men readers don't like reading about women, THAT's a problem!)
Word missing from the Adams-and-Jefferson article: Abigail.
No hetrosexual used to be the norm, so no one had to talk about it and make it clear they weren't Gay. And yes, some Gay men wont stop talking about their sex life. That's because a lot of Gays want to be the center of attention, and have an exhibitionist streak in them.
Based on personal experience, some of them had to struggle to "get out of the closet" and once out they can't handle the freedom. Eventually, they tone it down, but it takes a while.
"...this article and the article blogged in the previous post show you why your premise is wrong."
The source of your premise is the NYT, thus wrong.
A needy soy boy. He should get out of his NY apartment occasionally and, I don't know, take up boxing or something...
Oh, and it'd be nice if the NYT appeared to think that men's not thriving were a problem to be solved rather than just a phenomenon to be looked upon with momentary regret in the Clarkson "Oh no! Anyway..." vein.
"but the problem is only women read novels about that sort of thing, and your perspective is male. Who will read this?"
The best writing advice I have ever seen on YouTube was a guy who edits novels for aspiring writers, and finally, in one episode, after many giving technical advice, he comes out and says it. It was almost like that moment when Althouse made her feeling about genre novels known, he said: "I am going to be straight with you here. Most novels sell between 200 and 2,000 copies. If you can get 200 people to read your novel, you have succeeded, if you can get 2,000 people to buy it, you are doing great."
That's why men should continue to write novels even though outside of specific categories sell even though women straight up refuse to read them, they will not get a fair shake from a publishing house. Just look at the "literary prizes" and who they go to and why for an explanation.
"Where Have All My Deep Male Friendships Gone? I have many guy friends. Why don’t we hang out more?"
We must distinguish here that we are talking about most men, not a small subset of elite men who for one reason or another benefit from all of this.
This is happening because the Regime that has been controlling Washington DC and the engines of culture dissemination like film and music has made a concerted effort to drive men out of common institutions.
1. Men are not welcome in several common institutions like:
a. State Education including Public, Private, and Universities
b. The Health Care industry
c. Government funded NGOs
d. HR departments, Corporate administration
2. Men are being attacked quite pointedly by popular culture notably in film and music indstries.
3. The armed forces under the previous Regime have been mistreated and abused for decades.
4. Jobs that maintain our infrastructure and are physically hard have been denigrated mercilessly.
5. Most importantly the nuclear family, pair bonding rituals, and the common role of the head of household has been destroyed.
Women are easily led and filled with angst. Hence the war against the patriarchy.
I wonder if Ann will ever realize the damage her Feminism has done to our society.
Every man should lose at least one bloody fist fight and win one. It clears the head. Oh, and I guess today I need to add that those fights should be against other men, scary powerful men capable of hurting you.
Ann Althouse said...
If you've ever been one of those people who wonder way gay people seem to feel the need to tell you they're gay and why they don't just keep their private life private like everyone else, this article and the article blogged in the previous post show you why your premise is wrong. Heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual. Just start noticing.
No shit. Tribal signaling is what we do.
The problem is that our tribe is sick. It is poisoned by evil people who have evil goals.
They are pushing the trans agenda and the destruction of the institutions that are the foundation of a free high trust society and the continuation of that society.
We need children. We need liberty.
Only women can provide one of these things. Only men can provide the other.
You need to ask yourself why they are doing this and why you decided to help them tear our society apart.
Part of what changed, says Rhaina Cohen...
There's his whole fucking problem right there. "Let's get a woman to explain to us what the problem is!" Maybe ol' Sam needs to nut-up and figure this one out for himself.
bagoh20 said...
Every man should lose at least one bloody fist fight and win one. It clears the head. Oh, and I guess today I need to add that those fights should be against other men, scary powerful men capable of hurting you.
I think everyone in the world can benefit from getting their ass kicked once or twice including women.
Everyone has moments where they are the asshole.
"I thought about him all the time, and cared, deeply, about what he thought of me. We got jealous and mad at each other, and often argued like a bitter married couple — but eventually, like a successful married couple, we’d always find a way to talk things out."
I don't have any male friends who think like this. I don't think I've ever had one who did. "Talk things out"? Sounds like a chick to me, but what do I know? I'm just a guy.
I agree with Mason G. It sounds like a woman writing male characters.
bagoh20 said...
Every man should lose at least one bloody fist fight and win one. It clears the head. Oh, and I guess today I need to add that those fights should be against other men, scary powerful men capable of hurting you.
Exactly! Getting punched in the face teaches you everything you need to know about violence very quickly. We'd have a much calmer society if kids still got into fist fights.
Peter Gibbons: Does anybody ever say, "Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays?".
Lawrence: No. No, man. Shit, no, man. I believe you'd get your ass kicked sayin' something like that, man.
--Office Space
The Wall Street Journal had an essay about “romantasy” novels, in which the closing quote was a single woman saying “I’m looking for men written by women.” But men are the problem.
Transphilia or transphobia with a gay and spirited appeal.
What the hell is it with these Cosmopolitan weirdos in NYC?
I was reminded of that line, with that entry,
Queer eye for the urbane trans/homosexual.
This the fallout from gay lib. Yob always have to wonder if that close friend is going to get freaky with you. And the shock and hurt when they're rejected ..holy shit.
It's the stuff of nightmares.
“… Heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual. Just start noticing.” The Professor has come a long way, but still has some blind spots - understandably.
Friendships are based on sharing a project. It could be work or play, or a neighborhood situation. If you want more friends, find a project.
It becomes tricky when you start having kids. They are a project unto themselves. If your current friends are childless you will most likely lose contact. That's where church or clubs like Rotary come in handy.
1. I would never trust an article written by a guy with a hyphenated last name.
2. This guy was the official blogger of the Obama campaign.
3. I had my 50th reunion last week at Omaha Creighton Prep. We are friends and brothers and have been for over 50 years and we don’t have to write stories about it for the NYT.
As I think more about the article that the professor brought to our attention, it strikes me that it is presenting the natural progression of life and personal growth as unnatural and yet another problem that men must address. When my college friends and I started getting married and having children, we saw less of each other and contacts dwindled. As the kids grew up, we reconnected, sometimes via email or text. Now, several of us talk almost every day, and gatherings have become more frequent. It’s not a problem, it’s life.
Whiner's article triggers whiners.
The problem is a lack of trust. Men get burned by gossip plots until the go silent. Yes men are gossips too.
The antidote is a layman’s version of the legal ethic of atty client privilege. DO NOT TELL A FRIENDS SECRETS.
I wonder how much real brothers matter in this regard, and it occurs to me that us Boomers were the last generation in which most guys had multiple siblings.
As for the substance of the article, what a fruitcake.
And I found it on — alas — “The Joe Rogan Experience.”... And while many of his ideas made me wince...
Wasn’t me.
The assumption is that men who tell you they are not gay are gay.
- Recruiter: Now, are either of you homosexuals?
- John: You mean, like, flaming, or...
- Recruiter: Well, it's a standard question we have to ask.
- Russell: No, we're not homosexual, but we are willing to learn.
--Stripes
What is "prestige TV"?
Heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual. Just start noticing.
No. Closeted homo NY Times employee friends do that.
Is this the 'Sunday Seinfeld' edition of the NYT, a newspaper about nothing ?
"Heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual. Just start noticing."
That's not been my experience. Is it okay to notice that it isn't happening?
Heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual. Just start noticing.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Sounds like he is deep in the closet, NTTIATWWT.
And the only people who go out of their way to assure you that they are heterosexual are closeted homosexuals.
What is "prestige TV"?
Netflix and BBC America.
"In late 2018, I found something that finally resonated. And I found it on — alas — “The Joe Rogan Experience.”..."
"Alas".... Yeah, the dude's a fruit. Effeminate, closeted, supine sissies- These are the males that libtards are trotting out to teach non-libtard males how to be real men.
The NYT specializes in nattering on about nothing much that's important. Most men can figure things out for themselves--by themselves.
"Most men can figure things out for themselves--by themselves."
1. Men arrange a space for themselves.
2. Women clamor to be allowed entry.
3. Entry is grudgingly allowed.
4. Women notice "problems" with the space.
5. Women initiate modifications to repair the "problems".
6. Men start drifting away to establish a new space.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
What happened to Just Say No? Grow a spine. If my (F) partner (M) suggested I call my girlfriends to say goodnight, I'd simply give him a blank stare and say "no".
"Heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual. Just start noticing." That's funny. What we cisheteronormative heterosexual men (just so you know) notice when "heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual" is that they may just be on the other team. Considering that no actual heterosexual man of our acquaintance has ever "rushed to assure" us in that way. Like, none. (Talking about those of us who are not NYC "writers.")
A lot of my male friends have written me off because I'm not a Progressive anymore.
"Heterosexuals rush to assure you that they are heterosexual. Just start noticing."
A heterosexual will do this if you assume that he's gay and treat him that way. Just start noticing.
I really only have male friends. Like Jamie, I worked in male construction industries or, later, think-tanks, and I was sensitive to my role as a woman who sometimes had to let the guys have guy time. My dearest friend is a 95-year old man. I've always, almost exclusively, had friends 20 to 30 years older than I am. My husband says I have always secretly been an 80-year-old man shaking my fists at the sky.
We were born mere days apart.
What's odd is that female school-era friends have begun re-appearing in my life. I appreciate these appearances too, but, coming of age in the 80's, there really was far less difference between male and female friendships then. I hit the sweet spot where you could have male friends -- without privileges.
Building on Narr and Achilles: You could summarize it in three words: brothers, recess, draft.
Small families mean so many boys grow up without brothers. And almost all of them grow up without a father as an alpha-dog leader (postmodern fathers seem to be activity planners and backup mothers). So they don't learn how to deal with other males all day, every day.
Recess used to be the time and place you worked out on your own how to deal with other males. Hardly any school has true unsupervised outdoor recess anymore.
The draft used to force men into some kind of ersatz brotherhood, with or without combat. I don't believe in a draft except for truly existential wars, but I do have to acknowledge that it had this function. People who haven't been in the military don't realize how, in spite of all the regulations and supervision, soldiers spend a lot of their time in unsupervised peer groups, sorting out the informal rules for getting the job done without buddy-fucking each other.
The reason men don't know how to deal with each other is because they never learned how to be men.
JSM
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
Robert A. Heinlein
hombre said...
Achilles: “I think everyone in the world can benefit from getting their ass kicked once or twice including women.” The benefit to women might be that they would understand that in a world where men exist male protectors are useful. As for men, the only “benefit” I can remember is thinking I should have done better
This is exactly right.
Any person who says they want to take out the patriarchy needs to be shipped to Afghanistan until they figure out what the patriarchy is.
Hombre and Achilles: "in a world where men exist male protectors are useful."
In a world where Sam Colt existed, women don't need male protectors so much.
Probably why the lefties push gun control.
JSM
"postmodern fathers seem to be activity planners and backup mothers"
I saw a commercial the other day where the dad says he wants his kids to see him vulnerable and struggling through things.
WTF???
When I was a kid, my dad was Superman and I didn't want to see any of that stuff. I wanted to know that, no matter what, my dad had it covered and everything would be okay. Maybe he had his doubts sometimes, but he didn't share them with us kids.
Howard said...
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
Robert A. Heinlein
True for men.
Optional for women. Women have an important job only they can do.
Mason G said...
"postmodern fathers seem to be activity planners and backup mothers"
I saw a commercial the other day where the dad says he wants his kids to see him vulnerable and struggling through things.
WTF???
Do not ever think this is an accident.
They have been trying to take down the United States since it's inception and this is just one of the tools they are using to do it.
People couple up, and then the women spend time with the other women and the men spend time with the other men. If Sam manages to achieve that, he won't have to worry so much about not having men friends or not talking about deep things with them. The guys will all bond over complaining about their wives, and the women will bond over complaining about their husbands. Sam will also be so busy and have so many other things to worry about that he won't care if he's "really" gay or not -- though he and his new friends, when they say, "Love ya, bro," will still take care to say or imply with a glance that they don't mean it in a gay way.
"Boys keep swinging/ Boys always work it out," David Bowie.
New progressive social media trend: instead of baseball caps, men wear underwear on their heads emblazoned with emblems of their favorite sports teams, and slogan, "I'm perfectly normal".
.
Between “dude” and “bro”, I am ”literally” sick to death of it… and of literally, as well.
You have been telling them for 60-70 years that they are toxic and evil and that no one needs them. Now you are unhappy that they believe you.
Why would I mess with any far left b*tch in NYC??? They are so stuck up on themselves and they might accuse you of all kinds of things if you are polite and act like a gentlemen. The Roe effect is real people. These people will kill their babies to find 'happiness'.
Would not touch them with a 10 ft pole.
One of the things I noticed is that men form friendships through doing things. Men typically don't form close friendships in workplaces. And that as you get older, if you aren't married with kids then you lose those male friends because their friends become either the partners of their wives friends, or the parents of their kids friends.
If you're single, you lose those friendships, and they are very hard to replace because most people already have friend circles.
"The article ends with a description of one get-together with an old-friend guy: "we had no problem talking honestly. We didn’t empty our souls, the way my wife and her friends might do with one another. That was OK; we related on our own terms. I felt free and easy the whole night, afloat in the presence of an old friend’s unjudgmental love."
That's cringe inducing.
If "old-friend guy" reads this article he's never gonna answer the phone again when the author calls.
Anyone who repeatedly uses the word "dude" is someone who has always had few, if any, close friends. I would laugh at him and tell him to knock it off, as would most of my friends. I am 74, I still have friends I've known since I was in grade school and high school and "newer" friends I met while golfing in my 20s-60s (used to do that up to 50 times a year), I have had gay friends (they made no secret of it and no-one in our groups was bothered by it). I say "had" because they have died as have a number of other friends - one of those things you have to deal with as you get old. But nothing ever compared to the loss of my wife in 2023, nearly 40 years after we met in our first week of law school. So, yes, she was my best friend.
In the Simpsons there was an episode where a new gay character is introduced to the family. Homer doesn't quite understand the situation.
Marge: Homer, didn't John seem a little "festive" to you?
Homer: Couldn't agree more, happy as a clam.
Marge: He prefers the company of men!
Homer: Who doesn't?
The NYT is obsessed with grooming candidates in a bid to normalize the transgender spectrum disorder.
There is frequently commentary at this site looking at sources such as WaPo and NYT about the difficulties in men finding a place in this new world defined by toxic masculinity and the White patriarchy. Have any of these fools ever played pickleball? There is no patriarchy in pickleball, there is just a small plastic ball you whack across a net. All men and women are equal in that environment and it is glorious. Who needs deeper relationships than that? I used to rely on my wife for our mutual friends. Now we play pickleball.
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