Observes Peter Baker in this morning's episode of the NYT "Daily" podcast — "The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown" (audio and transcript at Podscribe).
We hear the recording of Zelensky, with new focus on the dismissive "JD": "What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What? What you, what you, what do you mean?"
Baker continues: "Perhaps history will not note this as an important moment. I noted it."
Yes, the re-listen affected me.
But Vance's response wasn't to express personal offense and it wasn't to go forward with the topic of what Putin would do in the future. Vance changed the subject to the past, to what the U.S. has already done: "You should be thanking the President...."
Peter Baker says Vance is "really putting Zelensky on the defensive... and Zelensky of course, has thanked America for three years, quite prolifically." And, Baker asserts, Vance and Trump "haven't supported Ukraine. Trump and Vance don't support Ukraine."
We hear Vance's next words — "you've had problems like bringing people into your military" — and this is where Zelensky indulges in what I hear as threat: "Even you, but you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you'll feel it in the future."
And that's the remark that brings in Trump in full dominance mode: "Don't tell us what we're gonna feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're gonna feel. You are in no position to dictate what we are gonna feel. We are gonna feel very good."
Of course, Baker puts Zelensky in a positive light. Go read the transcript if you want to see how. I'm blogging this because Baker's focus on the "JD" moment made me see the interchange in a new light. It pinpointed Zelensky as the aggressor.
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160 comments:
Shecky Zelenskyy.
The JD thing was the first thing I noticed.
I still haven't heard or read why there were no interpreters - I haven't sought out that knowledge, figuring somebody would mention it at some point, but so far I've been wrong. I am willing to give Z a certain amount of benefit of the doubt because he was speaking English, but now I need to go find out why - if it was his decision, it was not a smart one. Couldn't he have had an interpreter present and ready to jump in at his request?
“All your money is belong to us.”
—— Shecky Zelenskyy
I enjoyed the summary this morning at spectator.org
Their timeline begins with a reporter's question to Trump about his alignment with Putin. Trump gives a diplomatic answer and JD disparages the Biden admin's belligerence. And then here comes Z, and we're off to the races.
Vance lost with the fake outrage. If you use moral high ground, you don't have it. He's maybe too young to know that.
Vance is maybe playing to a young audience that doesn't know it either.
America is supporting Ukraine because America gets something out of it, not out of charity. Trump and Vance's point ought to be that it's getting near break-even now, not something about gratitude and disrespect. Idiots.
I was surprised when Vance started to push back on Zelensky. The “JD”, to me, was a response to Vance inserting himself in the conversation. Upon reading a few other takes on it though, I think Vance was right to chime in. I agree Zelensky was the aggressor, likely primed to be by the people he met with beforehand. It’s possible he would have been so without that priming, though.
Zelensky wants to continue the war to continue the money grift. He doesn't care about the lives lost. If there is peace, then there is a good change all the corruption in Ukraine is exposed. Plus Zelensky is a narcissist and a propagandist. (thus why he wears army green all the time). Trump was right. This asshole is flirting with WWIII. Let Canada and Europe give him money and send troops to die for his bullshit.
Its funny how the MSM, or I should say the MSM-DNC, frames the issues and controls the narrative. If any reporter had been as Pro-Putin and Baker is Pro-Zelenskyyy, he'd be called a "Russian Asset". So why aren't we calling Baker a "ukrainian Asset"? Well, because the NYT/WaPo/etc. control the narrative.
I should be shocked that a supposedly American reporter would take the side of a foreigner who insults us and the American President/VP in the white house, but I'm not. Because Baker is not an American, he's a globalist.
And if Zelenskyyy has thanked America before (when was that, btw?) he shouldn't have had any problem doing it again, when asked. But Zelenskyyy feels he has the Globalist establishment in both the USA and Europe on his side, and he can be as rude and obnoxious as he wants.
Anyway, the real point is, why is a border dispute between Ukraine and Russia any of our business? Its not. It was wrong to give Zelensky weapons to continue a war, and its wrong now. I hope Trump will see that, and just cut him off.
At least he stopped calling him “bitch”
Jamie said, "I still haven't heard or read why there were no interpreters..."
I would guess because the WH meeting was supposed to be nothing more than a PR spray. I think it was Scott Jennings how noted all Zelensky had to do was wear a tie, sign the agreement, and go to lunch. Zelenky's English is perfectly sufficient for those simple tasks, but instead he chose to pontificate. He chose poorly.
If there is peace, Vogue won't put Zelensky and his wife on the cover again. Don't give this asshole one more dollar. And never send America's youth to fight and die in another bullshit European war. If Europe had to face Putin alone, they would bow their heads and put their tail between their legs.
@rhhardin, JD Vance is amazingly intelligent and quick on his feet. I am certain his outrage is not faked, and I have no idea why you would think so. Perhaps because you are not thinking at al.
The war was created in a lab - and dispersed under crook Joe - for money grubbing reasons. Millions dead.
Chris Murphy(D) does not care.
Marco Rubio schools Georgie-boy.
"America is supporting Ukraine because America gets something out of it, not out of charity."
No, we're not getting anything out of it. Defense contractors and those getting some of the graft are, the rest of us aren't. We don't need their minerals either. If Ukraine decides to mine them, we can buy them on the open market. And Russia and other countries have the same minerals for sale.
There are countless videos of Ukrainian men being beaten and hauled off the street to be sent to the front with only a few days training. The estimate is that they are dead within two weeks.
Ann, I’ve read you for years, probably 15+, and I’ve always appreciated your perspective. You think and write so clearly, it’s very impressive to me.
But your coverage of Trump over the last year or so, has really made me step back. I’ve had opposite takes on nearly every post covering this general topic for probably a year now. Like, you are so insightful, what am I missing? It’s really made me question things.
I concede Zelenksy erred. He needs US help and should have been a better politician and did the things Trump wanted him to do. But that doesn’t change the inherent absurdity of Trump’s positions. Trump is still wrong about nearly everything, but Zelenksy still needs US support.
But c’mon, JD Vance was the aggressor when he stated that the current admin is trying diplomacy for the first time. Vance was wrong, that was likely offensive to Zelenksy, but I guess Zelensky had to sit there and take it.
And I read Vance’s “you should be thanking the President for trying to bring it into this conference” as an emotional expression of personal offense. But again, you and I have been reading things differently for a while now.
The way Biden and Europe have handled this situation, it has created a classic moral hazard. Zelensky is mostly playing with other people's money and other people's lives. His assessment of risk/return and therefore his posture and positions are entirely skewed. The Oval Office meeting only illuminated that for the world.
Think of Vance's Hillbilly Elegy as Vance's Mein Kampf.
"Zelensky speaks English as a second language. But any decent person would not weaponize that against him....
Poor Zelensky, nobody gives him an even break. Did somebody forbid interpreters? He doesn't have one, in his Presidential entourage? People are pointing out that diplomacy begins with effective communication, and that leadership begins with effective planning. Several journals have declared that the meeting went off the rails and virtually everybody lays that detour at Zelensky's feet. The Ukrainians asked for a signing ceremony in DC. They got what they asked for, yet brought something else.
I still haven't heard or read why there were no interpreters
Because this was a signing ceremony for the Minerals Deal not a negotiation, and Zelensky did three astounding things:
(1) Completely ignored the intended purpose for the Oval Office meeting in front of the Press; (2) Ambushed the President with a new demand; and (3) induced incredible amnesia in the Press which have failed to mention the actual purpose for the meeting in almost every single news report or analysis.
@mindnumbrobot, righ you are. The agreement itself was worked out ahead of time and the scene in the Oval Office was supposed to just be kabuki theater. It was not a working session, mostly just a photo op and then go do lunch.
But Zelenskyy had met with Democrats, whose twin goal L’s seem to be to humiliate Trump and get the war to drag on, the better for their stock portfolios and opportunities for kickbacks. They told him to take a crap in the punch bowl, and so he did. Figuratively, of course, but no doubt if there had been a punch bowl handy he’d have dropped his pants and squatted.
It is kind of fascinating, to me anyway, that Zelensky being such a thug, a grasping, greedy, uncivilized thug, he makes Putin look almost good by comparison. Would Putin have sat there dressed like that, muttering and rolling his eyes and crossing his arms and fidgeting, like some bully at school caught picking on other kids on the playground and called into the Principal's office to be reprimanded. Calling names and being all cheap and disrepectful like he's going to dick measure with Vance and Trump. Mr. Mini Macho Man.
Not that Putin is good, they're all a bunch of gangsters, I know that, but Putin at least seems to have some modicum of finesse when he's on the world stage. Maybe it's a Slav thing.
Trump does not like it being pointed out that he will go down in the history books as another Neville Chamberlain.
He won’t.
The NYT will take any little thing and blow it up in order to attack Trump.
Why didn't Baker write about Trump saying "raw earth" instead of "rare earth?" That's nearly as big as the JD slip of the tongue.
I heard the JD part but chalked it up to English being Zelensky’s second language.
Actual Items, my understanding is that the European leaders have not talked to Putin for years. That is the basis for Vance's "diplomacy" remark. Zelensky's response about 'How you negotiate with a murderous dictator?' confirms this and shows their attitude, which is nice in theory, but not helpful in realpolitik. The answer to Zelensky's question is that you do the best you can with that dictator for the purpose of saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of young men.
a serious question:
*if* you were Trying to screw the pooch (or skewer the deal)..
what would you have done differently from what Zelenskyyyyy did?
I can't think of a thing. which raises Another Serious Question:
WHY?
was Zelenskyyyy so coked up, that he had No Idea what was happening?
or was it All intentional?
and *if* it was All intentional... WHY?
anyone? anyone at all?
@Big Mike
note to self - no punch bowls at future social events.
actual items said...
" Ann, I’ve read you for years, probably 15+.. "
as mister Owl would say: Let's Find OUT!
https://www.blogger.com/profile/05096604382672350715
On Blogger since August 2017
hmmm..
I'm sure Zelinski calls the Vogue editor "Ms. Wintour"
@once written at 0820-
"It was pointing out that Ukraine is fighting an expansionist Russia alone..."
The reason the Ukraine is alone is that the other nations at risk of being invaded by Russia have sat back and said, "Let's you and him fight."
Sure, a few have increased their defense budgets, mostly in response to T-45's prodding, but why is it America's responsibility to keep on funding this meatgrinder?
One could go back in history and point to our "guarantee" to help Ukraine when they more-or-less voluntarily gave up their nukes, or, more recently, blame Biden's incredibly stupid January 2022 "minor incursion" remark (that was before Biden's foreign policy evolved into a simple word, "Don't!").
Sorry- no agreement is forever, and Ukraine and the rest of Europe have had plenty of time to prepare for the end of Uncle Sugar's ATM largesse. Zelensky asked for "ammo," and we have provided it. Maybe not everything he dreamed about, but enough to seriously deplete our own stockpiles, and the Ukrainian lines have changed minimally in 3 years. Enough already.
War hawks crow about how good it is for the US to spend a few dollars to degrade Russian military assets. Every resource that Russia loses in Ukraine is a resource that it will not have to defend itself in the east against our actual true adversary, China, when it decides to help itself to eastern Russian raw materials.
Zelinski was groomed by corrupt American Democrats.
"Like, you are so insightful, what am I missing? It’s really made me question things."
I view it as a contribution that I am able to make readers question things, but you seem to be questioning whether it is good to expose yourself to writing that makes you question things.
That doesn't make me question what I am doing. I'm observing the world and offering what I have to say. Your comment seems like something I've seen too much of: a caution that one had better be against Trump or there will be consequences. In my case, I will lose readers. I really don't care.
"Baker asserts, Vance and Trump "haven't supported Ukraine" What's the value of an interpretation that looks at the exchange on the basis of that BS assumption? Trump is trying to end a war with a deal that gives U a tripwire security tie with the US without provoking Russia further. The deal was already negotiated. Z doublecrossed the admin in the Oval Office.
The "JD" was d*ck move by an unreliable amateur arrogantly playing a weak hand in the house of the partner he needs.
The prog reaction is not surprising, of course--TDS, 24/7. But it is suprising in this sense: Trump is not a warmonger, he wants to end war, he tries to scale back US military commitments, he wants to end US-as-global-police. No more empire. Isn't that what the left always claimed to want?
Zelensky does a fist bump with the European kleptocracy with the Democrazis progressing in the woke of the Obama/Biden/Clinton world war ethnic Springs with benefits. A Jewish Spring, almost. Perhaps they can try again. Sudan is still a viable hotbed of black lives matter, selectively, less and less
OCEAN 11 said, "No, we're not getting anything out of it. Defense contractors and those getting some of the graft are, the rest of us aren't."
You're almost there, buddy. Not the defense contractors. But the un-named friends of politicians that brokered the deals.
A 155mm artillary shell cost between 2000 and 4000 dollars. By the time they get off the plane in Ukraine they cost 25, 000 dollars and up. Shipping ain't that much.
The conspiratorial worldview of this comment section cracks me up. As if the date of my creation of the actual items Blogger profile has anything to do with how long I’ve read Althouse.
I was a reader of James Taranto in WSJ’s Best of the Web in the 2000s. He used to link to “blogress, Ann Althouse” when she covered Wisconsin politics. Me being a big fan of reducing the power of sector unions, I followed that Wisconsin stuff closely.
*public sector unions
Actually, the JD thing was the last straw. Vance could see all the mugging and eye rolling Z was doing while Trump was speaking. I think Americans have had a belly full of forever war, supporting or participating.
"There are countless videos of Ukrainian men being beaten and hauled off the street to be sent to the front with only a few days training."
Even so, it is the best of all possible worlds.
https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/19942/pg19942-images.html#Page_5
If Russia wanted to adopt Ukraine, they would have invaded in 2014 when the coup had left Kiev in chaos and a viable choice for a progressive pimphood.
Ann- no caution by me at all. I have no plans to stop reading.
Me questioning things means: am I wrong about something big or are you wrong about something big or some combo? I work full time and only follow politics in my free time, so I’m never confident that I’m not the wrong one when I reckon you follow this stuff more closely.
In my case, I will lose readers. I really don't care.
I don't think that's how it works, you will be read even more carefully so you can be continually called out for your heresy. Or is it blasphemy? Probably both.
I'm glad The Vice President chimed in. Zelinski was acting like an entitled democrat party super-brat.
IMO, it's a mistake to attribute what occurred to anyone's taking personal offense over "JD" or anything else. What happened is that VZ was encouraged by dems and neocons to try to shame and embarrass Trump into including some kind of security guarantee for Ukraine as part of the peace process. Trump's team had already made it clear that he would not be doing that. The best Trump would do was the minerals agreement, which would put American industrial assets on the ground that would serve as a signal to Putin that he better not violate the cease fire (at least so long as Trump or Vance are in the WH). VZ well understood Trump's position but had been egged on by the president's political opponents (who are REALLY opposed to a Trump-led peace agreement) to make a stink over the lack of a formal security guaranty. JD's reference to VZ's campaigning for dems in Pennsylvania signaled that he and Trump knew exactly what VZ was up to in doing the dems' bidding. And his statement "you should be thanking the president" was saying, in effect, "You should be grateful we're willing to do the minerals investment piece of this, which we're only doing as a means of helping to stabilize the situation, not because the U.S. needs your minerals."
Bottom line: Trump and Vance were obviously annoyed by VZ, but it wasn't because of how he was dressed or that he called Vance "JD."
Big Mike - I think RH drinks a tall glass of Bulwark juice everyday.
We know so little about Ukraine. How many casualties? How much military aid is actually arriving on the ground? How do we see the war playing out? How does Putin? How does Zelinsky? What forces are working to shape policy? (See Mollie Hemingway's article on the advice Zelensky was getting from Neocons and Democrats--it blew up in his face.) How serious are the EU nations? Is Lindsey Graham a weathervane on Ukraine? Did anyone listen to Rubio's press conference?
The NYT will take any little thing and blow it up in order to attack Trump.
Yes. This incident is colored by the propaganda media watching government funding of opposition to Trump being cut off and a desperately searching for an effective angle to attack him.
Amadeus - you have a link to that Mollie Hemingway article?
Is it on X?
Trump does not like it being pointed out that he will go down in the history books as another Neville Chamberlain.
Oh how soon we forget Joe Biden with his stern "Don't don't don't" when asked for his comment on Putin's threats. How'd that work out? About as well as the "Well, a little incursion is okay" statement did. I don't recall Chamberlain sending arms to Poland the way Trump sent them to Ukraine, prior to the war. Trump took preventive measures. Biden waffled.
So save your "Peace in our time" crap for when Trump actually utters the kind of tripe progressives do. Or pull a quote now. I'll read it.
Zelensky's actions lend credence to the theory he was coked up during the meeting. That or he has some condition that causes him to squirm, twitch, touch his nose A LOT, sniff repeatedly and be hyperactive.
My first comment on this blog after seeing the oval office peace negotiation meltdown was that Zielinsky's biggest mistake was telling Trump that Russia was going to be a threat if we didn't stop him and Ukraine. It is almost as bad as using an ultimatum as a negotiating tactic. It actually caused Trump to lose his cool just a little bit.
It would help if people would be honest about what Zelensky is.
Zelensky is a dictator that has "suspended" elections until the war ends. Of course he doesn't want peace. The war is all that keeps him in power.
Zelensky is a Nazi style fascist who has imprisoned his political opposition and any one in media who criticized his actions.
Zelensky is a corrupt grifter who has siphoned off foreign aid to enrich himself and has laundered a lot of that money back to the US politicians that support this war. His cronies in Ukraine have siphoned billions to themselves.
The Ukrainian people of western Ukraine would vote him out by a landslide if they had the opportunity. They realize the only reason Ukraine is in this is to maintain control over a region where Western Ukrainians have been killing Russian ethnics in Eastern Ukraine since the 2014 coup that ousted a leader that represented that region of Ukraine.
Mollie Hemingway on X
Interesting. Susan Rice has her grubby mitts on things... among others.
"Zelensky repeatedly declined opportunities to sign the deal in Kyiv and Munich, and requested the meeting at the White House. It later came out that Rice and Tony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, and Alexander Vindman may have been personally advising Zelensky to do this meeting in the way he did -- that they recommended him to be hostile and to try to goad Trump into blowing up. Even though he didn't, and even though Zelensky's actions horrified many normal Americans, the Obama team went on the airwaves to falsely characterize what happened."
And, Baker asserts, Vance and Trump "haven't supported Ukraine."
*cough*bullshit*cough*
“It was pointing out that Ukraine is fighting an expansionist Russia alone and that if it fails, the U.S. will possibly then be confronted directly with having to engage.”
What the Ukraine war has pointed out is that Russia is a pirate with a wooden leg, an eyepatch, and a hook. It can successfully prey only on the weak and disregarded.
The notion that it is a threat to Europe is absurd.
As noted by the Z man, Trump has been Hitler now for nine or 10 years, and now it appears he is going to be Chamberlain too. That is quite an accomplishment.
"Ann- no caution by me at all. I have no plans to stop reading."
Thanks. I am on guard against those who come here to play on my feelings and derail me from staying true to what is my mission. Sorry for the "false positive"!
more:
"I think their goal was to have a wonderful performance by Zelensky, an angry Trump appearing to scuttle the deal, and the support of the neocon portion of the GOP to start applying pressure on Trump to have US Troop commitments as part of the "security guarantee." It was a set-up, in Susan Rice's interesting choice of words.
Instead, Zelensky had one of the worst stage performances of his acting career, and Trump was statesmanlike (against all odds) throughout. Zelensky followed Team Obama's advice to be hostile to a tee, but it didn't land how they thought it would. Surprisingly, one of the most important aspects of it not working out might have been Lindsay Graham's reaction. Had he and other neocons thought Zelensky was being reasonable, Trump would be having to fight (even moreso) the neocon portion of the GOP in addition to Team Obama's dirty tricks. Even the "conservative" neocon pundits on TV last night were admitting Zelensky had royally messed up.
As you can see from the hostility of the bureaucracy to any Republican oversight, no matter how reasonable or minor it may be, the entrenched bureaucracy and permanent DC apparatus is quite active. That goes quadruple for the deep state in the Intelligence Community. I'd expect more and more shenanigans and to be prepared so that you don't fall for the next information operation. The post-WWII architecture in Europe and the US needs this war to continue or be settled on "US troops on the ground" type guarantees, even though that's not what Americans want."
YEP!
The EU coordinated talking points - so very similar to American Democratic-Soviet Talking points.
btw- Did Joe Biden pardon Susan Rice?
Perhaps that was a mistake? er... an oversight.
Obama, Biden Oval Office Meeting On January 5 Was Key To Entire Anti-Trump Operation
Over at Nwsmax Colonel Shaffer seems to be saying that Zelensky already had sold the minerals to Great Britain three days before the election.
https://www.newsmax.com/newsmax-tv/tony-shaffer-ukraine-trump/2025/03/02/id/1201039/
Can this be true? Did they think that Biden would be elected and we'd never find out? But, due to Trump's intelligence picks, we did find out? When? Did Zelensky come with the intent to pick a fight so the deal would fall through for that reason? Not knowing we knew? And Trump wanted the fail in public so we the people could see the problem and the fail? to counter the prepared world media narrative? of what jerks we are? because we were mean to the guy we found selling the mineral rights twice? because it bothers us to be played? Am I awake? Is this all a dream?
As the leftys would say: What the actual fuck?
@ Howard
"Zielinsky's biggest mistake was telling Trump that Russia was going to be a threat if we didn't stop him and Ukraine."
Yeah, I think you're correct
For me, there were enough 'WTF' moments in this exchange to make me think of it as a spat. The Progressive Legacy Media is always going to spin things like this as a Trump unforced error; the New Media is going to spin it as Trump reacting correctly to a latest outrage.
When you watch the whole video, there's a moment when a New Media reporter challenges Zelensky about his suit, why doesn't he own a suit. It's belligerent, and it escapes comment because he's not a participant. But I think this set Zelensky rolling, until he got so frustrated he started mumbling cuss words under his breath. JD chiming in, and Trump going nearly apoplectic was just poor statesmanship. All sides lost it. But, when you're engaging in diplomacy at this level, your mettle is tested by this kind of crap, and you pretend to ignore it, because it makes you the better diplomat, and the ability to completely control your emotions will, inevitably, give you a negotiating edge - when you figure out how to exploit theother guy's emotions when you want to. There's just no way around it.
I understand Trump's and Vance's reactions, don't fault them for it, but they should have done better to take control of the meeting. Zelensky is like every other Ukrainian I've ever worked with - constantly figuring the angles from the supremacy of their own little world. They're mostly Eastern European and what's left is Turk, and on top of all that, their heritage has come through the Soviet crucible as a disfavored provincial resource. Self-interest is the only thing they've been bred to know, it's the only thing you can count on for survival, and there's a reason everybody calls them the most corrupt people that exists - although I've seen worse.
NATO member states spending as a % of combined spending.
Look at this Pie chart
The combined defense expenditure for members of NATO was approximately 1.47 trillion U.S. dollars in 2024.
The GDP of Russia in 2023 was approximately $2.01 trillion.
Italy's GDP was about $2.3 trillion.
Question.
Why can't the combined nations of Europe marshal the resources to collectively defend themselves from invasion by an Italy?
After all, the US is borrowing our contribution from generations yet unborn. Putin's Russia is not the Soviet Union of the Cold War.
Re. interpreters: Don't leave home without one. There are consequences of being "misunderstood". Some chuckle-worthy, some; the difference between war and peace.
"Ich bin ein Berliner".
Like dating in great-grandma's day, meetings between national leaders should always have chaperones. We can call them "interpreters." And like sexual activities in great-grandma's day (assuming there was anything like that going on back then) they should mostly be conducted behind closed doors. Great-granma didn't like meetings like this happening outside where they could scare the horses.
I screwed up my pie chart link above. Here's one that works...hopefully.
https://x.com/cdrsalamander/status/1895894526134534543
@ Peachy
“Trump was statesmanlike (against all odds) throughout”
I very much disagree.
A statesman would know his own numbers (again, doesn’t Trump have numbers people?) and not keep misquoting $350 billion. It’s half that. And it’s old military equipment, then we spend money on new equipment with US defense contractors, and money flows back into our economy. It’s hardly a raw deal. I was called morally irresponsible on this blog on Friday for pointing this out. But we have US citizens thinking we are taking money from US working poor and giving it to Zelensky to buy cocaine. A statesman wouldn’t let this misunderstanding flourish!
Correction to Wild Swan 9:23
Should have said: I know you will write what you want. So, you disagree on Trump. No one but a bot-head wants forced agreement. Kierkegaard said: The Crowd is Untruth, meaning if you say what the majority wants because they want it, that's lie even if it's the truth.
We have allied with foreign leaders who were more oppressive and more corrupt than Zelinsky. Yes, it's time for peace, but the outrage against Zelinsky seems exaggerated and ill-conceived. Pit Zelinsky against Putin, and who's worse? To some extent, we (the Western governments) made Zelensky what he is now.
I am on guard against those who come here to play on my feelings and derail me from staying true to what is my mission.
Hmm ... who else talked like that?
A statesman would know his own numbers (again, doesn’t Trump have numbers people?) and not keep misquoting $350 billion. It’s half that.
Zelensky himself has said he doesn't know how much it is or where it's all gone (but he welcomes further scrutiny...lol). And there are different ways to calculate the cost as it hasn't all been in cash as I understand it. And maybe Trump is calculating the "opportunity cost".
Anyway it's billions and billions....it's huuuge.
But, when you're engaging in diplomacy at this level, your mettle is tested by this kind of crap, and you pretend to ignore it, because it makes you the better diplomat,
"Diplomatic" blunders can be as deadly as military mis-calculations. Diplo-speak relies on "translation". There are times when straight talk is a must.
Words intended to "send a signal" may spare feelings but cost lives. Many lives. See Korea and Kuwait.
Jamie said...
The JD thing was the first thing I noticed.
I still haven't heard or read why there were no interpreters - I haven't sought out that knowledge, figuring somebody would mention it at some point, but so far I've been wrong."
This is my guess what no interpreter was present. The problem is Zelensky (like the vast majority of Ukrainians, is a native Russian speaker. His English is better than his Ukrainian. Since the invasion, the ultra-nationalists in Ukraine have eliminated any Russian cultural influence. This includes make it it illegal to use Russian for any formula purpose, like government, doctors, movies, etc.
Bob Boyd said: "Putin's Russia is not the Soviet Union of the Cold War."
Absolutely right, sir.
Unfortunately, though, neither are Great Britain and Germany, and their weakness is part of the reason Putin can get away with this crap.
"In my case, I will lose readers. I really don't care." My best guess is you'll/you're gaining readers.
Trump is likely to hand all of this mess over the Europeans by saying that the Europeans can buy all of the U.S. weapons they want to give to Ukraine. And really, what possible objection could the Europeans offer against this?
Another good listen on the history of the problems in the Ukraine. From a neutral point of view the US doesn't come out looking too good. We won the Cold war under Reagan and gave the Russians some security guarantees. We didn't keep those promises. I'm not a fan of Russia but it is necessary in any negation to understand the other side's concerns and hold to what you promise.
https://x.com/BGatesIsaPyscho/status/1895751157651251687
Bob Boyd - link does not work.
their weakness is part of the reason Putin can get away with this crap.
Weakness which we continue to enable.
If they really believed Russia was going to invade Europe, would they have made the choices they have made?
@ Peachy
I reposted the link at 9:26AM. Does that one not work for you either? It works for me.
Here it is again:
https://x.com/cdrsalamander/status/1895894526134534543
Bob Boyd - Link works @ 9:58
thanks.
and holy smokes.
Glad to hear it. Thx.
Yeah, that's a jaw-dropper isn't it?
Actual Items-
See Bob Boyd's link at 9:58
- Or -
here
Big Mike: "@rhhardin, JD Vance is amazingly intelligent and quick on his feet. I am certain his outrage is not faked, and I have no idea why you would think so. Perhaps because you are not thinking at al."
rhhardin is locked in on just being so much smarter than those gosh darn dumb Trump/Vance dudes, and now, Rubio as well, and Sec Treasury Bessent as well, and anyone that sees it completely different than rhhardin does.
And you know, its probably important that rhhardin points this every day, just so everyone knows.
Its amazing how dumb Trump is, and Vance, and everyone is in senior leadership over at that Dumb Trump Admin.
Oh well, I guess we'll have to just muddle through with these guys until some smart GOPe establishment, status quo, easy as she goes types can be reinstalled.
I don't understand why the Ukraine thinks an American security guarantee would be worth anything. They had an American guarantee of their territorial integrity in 2014, but the Obama administration did basically nothing to effectuate that (other than some minor, cosmetic sanctions on Russia) because the Ukraine is mostly irrelevant to US interests. If the US gives a "security guarantee" today, why would they expect things to play out differently?
Is it that they expect US troops to be based in the Ukraine as a tripwire? Why would we benefit from stationing troops there? They're not all that close to any places we particularly care about, and there are more reliable partners in the area.
“Vlod the Imploder”
—— J.J. Sefton
Each new day raises the same question: Will Hardin “screw the pooch” today?
re: Sal's pie chart. (his substack is a must read, btw)
Let me be the first (today) to point out the tired but true fact that most of these nations have some form of universal health coverage that is presented as a human right. When we speculate how this can be true in nations with an average GDP per capita lower than Mississippi, we get to the crux of the argument Trump is making.
It takes a lot of education and nightly exposure to legacy media to develop the ability to fail to see the obvious here.
"Because this was a signing ceremony for the Minerals Deal not a negotiation, and Zelensky did three astounding things:
"(1) Completely ignored the intended purpose for the Oval Office meeting in front of the Press; (2) Ambushed the President with a new demand; and (3) induced incredible amnesia in the Press which have failed to mention the actual purpose for the meeting in almost every single news report or analysis."
This meeting wasn't supposed to happen. Zelensky insisted on coming to The White House to sign the deal. And to grandstand in front of the world press corps.
The salient point of the invasion of Ukraine, pointed out by George Friedman, is that Putin has lost the war. After three years and losses in the hundreds of thousands the Red Army could not defeat a vastly inferior country in both man power and armaments, even with the initiative of the first move. They even have had to draw on North Korea to continue the war. To attack Europe they would have to mount an offensive from the Scandinavians and the Baltics to Ukraine. They can't do that. Trump seems to see that, and wants this to end, because a chastened and weakened Russia has been exposed as no longer threat to NATO. On its own, they are no longer the great power they once were, but joined at the hip to China, they are dangerous. Ukraine has bravely done all they can do. Mission accomplished. Now bring Russia in from the cold and away from China. That seems to be how Trump sees this. I think he is probably right.
"This meeting wasn't supposed to happen. Zelensky insisted on coming to The White House to sign the deal. And to grandstand in front of the world press corps."
Maybe Z was intentional, provoked this so he could flee to the EU shelter as a battered wife of the abusive American husband.
I'm 90% with @actual items and I'll add a couple things. On May 20,2019 Zelenskey too office in less than 30 days Pres. Trump called asking for dirt on former VP Biden's crime family. Z did not respond immediately so Pres Trump stopped a congress approved $400 million dollar shipment of arms.
Folks keep saying Z could just sign the paperwork and get what? He gives up, on behalf of his country, 50% of Profits on minerals he needs to sell to support his 40,000,000 people.
Marco Rubio over weekend FINALLY had a thoughtful comment about what they are TRYING TO DO to get Putin, who has avoided ALL previous attempts to end war, to the table with USA and the Big negotiator. Maybe instead of SIGN THE DAMN PAPER, a little insight and negotiation could have helped. Marco seemed to "hint" that the oval office was a set up.
The folks of Ukraine do not want to be Russians. They have seen Bucha and Mariupol war crimes they would rather fight to the end - their drones have changed war as we know it. so they will wait for USA to decide if Putin can be a made to deal or not.
Zelensky and Putin are cut from the same mold. The big difference is that if the war ends Zelensky will be out and Putin will not. Meanwhile, effete UK and EU leaders, some Gazprom’s customers, bloviate and try to guarantee bad loans with more bad loans. This isn’t political or geopolitical rocket science once TDS is removed.
brad writes, "Folks keep saying Z could just sign the paperwork and get what?"
I'll answer with an answer. Some other folks keep saying the U.S. taxpayer - moms and dads with families to support - can keep sending money to Ukraine and get what, brad?
"Because this was a signing ceremony for the Minerals Deal not a negotiation, and Zelensky did three astounding things:
(1) Completely ignored the intended purpose for the Oval Office meeting in front of the Press; (2) Ambushed the President with a new demand; and (3) induced incredible amnesia in the Press which have failed to mention the actual purpose for the meeting in almost every single news report or analysis."
Zelenskyy requested this signing ceremony, too.
Good luck fixing this.
Again - The EU wants to support Zelinski. They can! Please do!
Why does Mr. Keir Starmer keep adding *but USA* to his promises. Stop it. Stop turning to the US tax payer. Stop it.
We've paid enough.
Harun - for the win.
Also, Democrats keep claiming Trump/Vance "ambushed" Z.
Why would they do that? Was a win guaranteed? No. This not being signed looks bad. This is not a win.
In fact, it makes me wonder if the Dems SET UP THE AMBUSH and of course they love to accuse other people of what they themselves do.
Which side won from this public argument?
1) Putin
2) Democrats
3) Europeans who are angry at Vance.
Democratic Senators get financial war kick backs. Prove me wrong.
Howard: "My first comment on this blog after seeing the oval office peace negotiation meltdown was that Zielinsky's biggest mistake was telling Trump that Russia was going to be a threat if we didn't stop him and Ukraine. It is almost as bad as using an ultimatum as a negotiating tactic. It actually caused Trump to lose his cool just a little bit."
Completely agree with this. On top of the substantive disagreement over the "security guarantees" which Trump and Vance understood from the 2 previous Zelensky purposeful blowups (Bessent and then the Rubio/Vance meetings in Munich).
Harun: "In fact, it makes me wonder if the Dems SET UP THE AMBUSH and of course they love to accuse other people of what they themselves do."
Of course they did, along with the euro-weenies, as seen from the pictures and video from the meeting the coked up midget had with the dems (and 3 republicans, including Graham who quickly recognized the danger to his electoral prospects when this fallout hits the campaign trail with him next time)...which completely explains why Graham has come out so forcefully for Zelensky to resign. Graham is trying to out-MAGA anyone from his right in the next primary.
Zelensky is now out there saying the end of the war with Russia is "very very far away."
yeah - I'll bet at least 4 years.
BTW - Trump and company need to re-focus on cleaning up the no-ID to vote system the corrupt democrats have installed.
X
🚨"Victoria Nuland’s son is part of a think tank working against President Trump’s efforts to end the Ukraine War.
Prior to Zelensky's DC visit, the group was drafting alternative "peace plans" to escalate the war and lobbying against the proposed mineral deal."
"I'm 90% with @actual items and I'll add a couple things. On May 20,2019 Zelenskey too office in less than 30 days Pres. Trump called asking for dirt on former VP Biden's crime family. Z did not respond immediately so Pres Trump stopped a congress approved $400 million dollar shipment of arms."
We delayed the shipment because Z was a comedian entering his first elected office and he said we was going to negotiate peace with Russia.
Z didn't even know about the delay.
Trump requested information in regards to corruption at the highest level of USG - you may recall that Biden granted pardons to all his family? You may recall that his prosecutors slow walked Hunter's cases to get past statue of limitations for Joe as VP?
Please start being skeptical and curious about both sides of an issue.
He said HE was going to negotiate peace with Putin.
Trump and Vance enjoyed playing the tough guys on home turf. But Zelenskyy is the real thing. He stayed in Kyiv, when Russian forces were closing in and the city was under bombardment. Vance, by contrast, chose to move to a secure location when confronted with a few hecklers on a skiing trip this weekend.
Says it all.
OT: Musk says he lives in fear of his life.
Would that be because of the corrupt-Sewer-Mob-Soviet-MSNBC -Democrap Party?
of = for
Kakapoodle.
JD Vance is the VP or the US.
Of course he needs to protect himself and his family from the corrupt democrat mob.
Why sell out the Winston Churchill of this era?
It is the 1945 peace that Trump is destroying.
Who lost Ukraine? That will define American politics for a generation or two.
Vance is not exactly a profile in courage. His job in the army was writing press releases.
Ann, I've also been reading your blog for 15+ years. There are plenty of partisan red meat blogs that my friends enjoy to either hate-read or affirm their beliefs. As Obama might say, I don't need to get all wee-wee'd up, so don't enjoy those.
Your blog is smart and rational. For many years, we did not agree politically. It's fine, you are never heavy-handed about politics. Men in shorts garner all of your scorn.
I've been here long enough to know that you are going to keep doing what you're doing. People who are intolerant of diverse viewpoints, can head over to Bluesky or Reddit.
This failed comedian got chumped by the Democrats with their "pre meeting" suggestions and coaching. No ambush by Vance and Trump--just a reaction to the overt aggression on the part of Zelenskyy. The meatgrinder for both Russian and Ukrainian soldiers will go on. A little harder now since Mr. Z managed to cut off US funding with his bad behavior.
@actual items;" It’s half that. And it’s old military equipment, then we spend money on new equipment with US defense contractors, and money flows back into our economy ..."
The ideas you are expressing were placed inside your skull as a single, fungible unit by the propagandists who are all that you read. That's why you have a problem understanding Althouse. You swallow. You do not digest.
If Vance becomes the 48th president of the United States, he will be referred to as JDV. Without any ambiguity. But not to his face, and not by practicing coke-heads like VOZ.
"will go down in the history books as another Neville Chamberlain"
It seems more that Trump doesn't want to be another LBJ. He could escalate what has thus far been a proxy war. But people who always want to jump to WW2 examples overlook all the wars since then. Russia doesn't care about human lives so the only way to win is absolute attrition or nuclear war. And they won't invade into western Europe because of NATO. This is Vietnam-like not WW2 for that reason.
I don't think using "JD" was any big deal at all. Everybody calls Vance "JD". His book cover says JD Vance. His book Introduction opens with "My name is JD Vance". How many people know what his full first name is (James). I had to look it up and I never heard him called James before. If Zelenskiy said, "JD, I agree, we need to try diplomacy!" nobody would feign an offence to that.
So the crucial thing was to obstruct the possibility of diplomacy by Zelenskiy. "What kind of diplomacy?", quoth he. To which an answer of course is, "None of your business, Vladimir! We do the diplomacy, you consent and stand by, Vladimir."
@ Jupiter
"The ideas you are expressing were placed inside your skull as a single, fungible unit by the propagandists who are all that you read. That's why you have a problem understanding Althouse. You swallow. You do not digest."
So please educate me. What's the real story?
"But Zelenskyy is the real thing. He stayed in Kyiv...."
Now, chart the trajectory of his net worth for us over his years in leadership. How much is he worth, and where did it come from? It's a real dyed-in-the-olive-drab-wool Bernie Sanders story.
For all the "I stand with Ukraine" commenters here, who wants American youth to fight and die for Ukraine? Who wants more Ukrainian and Russian youth to die for a little bit of territory. Who wants NATO to keep expanding? Who wants to fund Europe and Canada's defense forever? Who wants to be enemies with the Russian people forever?
Are you really "pro-Ukraine" or just anti-Trump? Zelensky cancelled elections and has outlawed his political opposition. In what possible definition of "democracy" is it actually being defended?
All of this liberal Russian boogeyman hatred in America partially extends from the outright lie the "Russia interfered in our election" (2016) and "Trump colluded with Russia and is a Russian asset."
Probably one of the absolute dumbest things to believe in modern American history. Just as dumb as believing the mRNA COVID shots were "safe and effective." I'll bet there is a high correlation between "I stand with Ukraine" and "I got vaccinated." It's all empty, bullshit virtue signaling.
Anybody asking, "what kind of diplomacy" should be simply referred to Treaty of Portsmouth between Czarist Russia and Imperial Japan brokered by TR in 1905 for relevant example.
"Why sell out the Winston Churchill of this era?"
Unconditional surrender meant fighting to Berlin.
Moscow has nuclear weapons, so you won't be fighting until Moscow. So explain why playing as Winston Churchill when Russia has nukes is wise?
Vance spoke first but Zelensky’s response to him makes him the aggressor?
If Zelensky had called him Vice President Vance instead of JD, that would have come out Wice President Wance, so maybe he thought he was being polite. Zelensky’s “nice ocean” comment was on a par with Trump’s “gambling with World War III.”
As to the substance of what Vance and Zelensky said, Vance wanted to lay the failure of diplomacy on Biden, whereas Zelensky’s point was the failure of diplomacy goes all the way back to Obama. The first Trump administration is in that timeline too, which may be what triggered Vance to say, “I think it’s disrespectful for you to come to the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media.”
I don’t recall when that use of “litigate” and its sibling “relitigate” entered American politics, but I wish they would leave.
We've been blowing through huge stockpiles of munitions that still had a decade or more of shelf-life and were built before the massive inflation of the past 4 years.
It would be better not to have to replace these stockpiles in a time of inflated costs, but if we keep giving everything to Ukraine we REALLY can't wait for prices of materials to stabilize. The lead time on some of these items is 36-48 months and that's with intact supply chains, which we will NOT have if we're in a war with China or Russia.
We are OUT OF MONEY at the same time that we're going to have to rebuild our military capabilities before someone takes advantage of our current weakness.
"A statesman would know his own numbers (again, doesn’t Trump have numbers people?) and not keep misquoting $350 billion. It’s half that. And it’s old military equipment, then we spend money on new equipment with US defense contractors, and money flows back into our economy. It’s hardly a raw deal. "
“The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact.”
George Orwell - 1984
Iman said...
“All your money is belong to us.”
—— Shecky Zelenskyy
Somebody set us up the Trump.
Left Bank: "Vance spoke first but Zelensky’s response to him makes him the aggressor?"
LOL
Your lies are becoming even more pathetic. It was a 50 minute discussion, which wasn't supposed to be a discussion at all, but Zelensky, encouraged by the New Soviet Democraticals in their meeting with Zelensky PRIOR to the meeting with Trump in the Oval, used the meeting to relitigate, again, for the 3rd time at the last minute, the terms of the deal which had ALREADY been agreed to.
Zelensky spoke for 40 minutes before Vance even spoke up.
So no, Vance did not "speak first". A moronic claim that is even worse than most of your moronic claims.
There was an off screen interpreter that Z asked for clarification a few times
Prof. M. Drout: "We are OUT OF MONEY at the same time that we're going to have to rebuild our military capabilities before someone takes advantage of our current weakness."
You need to begin internalizing the clear truth that for many of the "Slava Ukraina" crowd in the West, ensuring that NO military and geo-political focus being put on the ChiComs is part of their intended results.
They are working hard to bury the US in an Eastern Europe direct war with Russia. This completely opens the door to allowing the ChiComs free rein everywhere else AND increases russia's reliance on the ChiComs for weapons and men (North Korea is controlled by the ChiComs hence the NK ground forces deployed to Ukraine was due to ChiCom pressure).
This is also the way the New Soviet Democraticals and their NeverTrump/NeoCon allies believe they can completely destroy Trump's second term.
Re. interpreters: Don't leave home without one. There are consequences of being "misunderstood". Some chuckle-worthy, some; the difference between war and peace.
"Ich bin ein Berliner".
That's what puzzled me about the lack of interpreters. Errors in translation can have consequences ranging from hilarity to the brink of war. Why take the chance? Have one standing by. Don't need him or her? No harm done.
So brad and actual items are sock puppets of who?
The main problem for the warmongering globalists that support the dictator Zelensky, whose murderous regime has been killing Russian ethnics in Eastern Ukraine since the 2014 coup, is they are so transparently dishonest.
At least try to have better lies.
And while you are at it go sign up for the war you support and stop supporting the press gangs that are kidnapping Ukrainians and sending them into battle to die.
There was an off screen interpreter that Z asked for clarification a few times
Ah, thank you, FullMoon!
Vance wasn't in the army.
Full Moon is correct that there was an interpreter offscreen. I remember Zelenskyy asking for a clarification somewhere in the discussion, though I cannot point to it exactly.
That being said, I don't think the problems were one of interpretation as of one of expectations. Trump and Vance were under the impression that they were there to do a signing of an agreement already reached. Zelenskyy, probably coached by the Democrats and Europeans, decided to "relitigate" in public points that had already been agreed upon.
If all you have is ad hominem attacks, at least get those right.
Achilles: "So brad and actual items are sock puppets of who?"
Probably rhymes with Wife Wong Wepublican Duck.
"Vance is not exactly a profile in courage. His job in the army was writing press releases."
What was yours?
Gusty Winds - 100%
I repeat: Putin has lost the war. Stalemate for him is a defeat and an unmasking of Russian weakness. Trump recognizes that this changes everything. Continued combat is now pointless. Zelensky, along with the elites in Europe and the armchair war-lovers in the US , who will not die in this war, want it to continue.
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said..." It can successfully prey only on the weak and disregarded.
The notion that it is a threat to Europe is absurd." Actually, Europe is also weak and disregarded. It's been years and they still can't beat Ukraine. If the Europeans had more than one effective military they could easily hold him off, byt other than the Poles, it's all bluster and nothing to back it up. Even so, I suspect all the difficulties they've had in Ukraine are enough to keep them from trying for more. Although the Baltics might be an exception.
Paddy O said "It seems more that Trump doesn't want to be another LBJ. He could escalate what has thus far been a proxy war." I think that's very perceptive and that (as Paddy O says) Viet Nam is a much better analogy than WW2.
"and *if* it was All intentional... WHY?"
I'm going to go for simple.
The simplest explanation is that Zelensky is at the end of his rope here. He and Ukraine have no options. He's frustrated and angry. His biggest supporters, Biden and the Euros, strung him along for years. He hears from even the americans that support him, that "isn't it great that Ukrianian blood is being used to take out Putin's armor? It's cheap for us!" It can't feel good to send off thousands of men and women to their deaths, while begging internationally for help, from again, the people that supposedly supported him.
Biden and company probably told him that after the election they would have more political weight to help more, but Trump winning through all that away. He knows that the Euros can't help him. The Poles and Hungarians would rather feed him and Ukrainians to the Russians as a sacrifice.
He knows that his people are being sacrificed and he doesn't like it. He's been ill advised by people that support him.
So he lashed out because he has nothing else he can do at this point. If he can't get the President of the US to help he's going nowhere.
A real hero that gets f***** when real politics gets involved.
The EU response is typical for them, insult America again and demand our money and blood. After reflecting on the events of this affair my prior is that the the EU is looking for a hat trick, they want Russia completely destroyed with US blood so they can turn the pieces into a resource colony for their enjoyment. That is their historical MO.
In that process they want the US bloodied with no weapon stockpiles so that China can severely damage the US, including killings of US citizens on a Ukrainelike scale.
Last, they will build power based on Russian oil and minerals to counter China into a bi polar world while still thinking they can insult the shattered US into providing human cannon fodder to kill Chinese.
I think that about sums it up. It is perfectly obvious that the EU has:
1. Absolutely no respect for the US and places no value on the lives of US citizens.
2. Has no use for democracy and wants to rule as tyrants.
3. Has an insanely demonic sense of entitlement and feels the world is obligated to serve them alone.
4. Will never fight a war that results in the possibility of casualties to European young people.
This I believe, it sounds crazy, but a nation must respect the worst case threat.
I am reminded of the Frenchman on the wall in the movie, Give. E your money and blood, or I shall taunt you again!”
Death and dying but insistence on decorum, has ever been Europe's MO.
Josephbleau: "The EU response is typical for them, insult America again and demand our money and blood. After reflecting on the events of this affair my prior is that the the EU is looking for a hat trick, they want Russia completely destroyed with US blood so they can turn the pieces into a resource colony for their enjoyment. That is their historical MO."
This is a perfect synopsis of the Establishment/State Dept/CIA/USAID plan for Russia that has existed for over 20 years and accelerated with Nuland and that entire crew. They haven't even been hiding it! They have been bragging about it the whole time, not caring if the russkis and even the ChiComs heard them directly! Which has driven the russkis and the ChiComs even further into each others uncomfortable arms.
NATO to surround Russia with color revolutions in neighboring states all of whom will be admitted to NATO, force a desposing of Putin, instigate multiple regional breakaways within Russia and eventually break up Russia into 15 to 20 sub-nations that can each be exploited for the benefit of the Euro-US "elites"....having used US blood alone (the euro-weenies have zero interest or capability to use the almost negligible combat ready troops/assets they have for that purpose) and the American treasury as their private cash trough to draw from to fund it all, again, with the euro-weenies on the side watching us expend ever more taxpayer cash to reward the EU.
What's in a name? Not much - they change like seasons:
1984-1989 James Donald Bowman
1990-2012 James David Hamel
2013-2025 James David Vance
He changed his name to Vance when he graduated Yale law school – for "personal reasons." But in terms of branding, "The Vance Law Firm" or "Senator Vance" sounds much better than "The Hamel Law Firm" or "Senator Hamel." He knew that.
But why JD? He was Cpl. James D Hamel in the military – that's a professional, adult name. "JD," meanwhile, is a frat boy on your lacrosse team (not a cool one).
So, address the man as JD. He's name aware. He picked JD. It's not our fault he picked a child's name for himself.
" I was called morally irresponsible on this blog on Friday for pointing this out."
You were called morally reprehensible for championing the war as a benefit to the US because Ukrainians were killing Russians so we don't have to. You're not the only one pushing this argument, and yes, I think it's immoral.
Maybe instead of SIGN THE DAMN PAPER, a little insight and negotiation could have helped.
The deal was agreed to. He was provided two prior opportunities to sign it and instead, insisted on having it done in DC.
The negotiations were over. Sign the damn paper and go have lunch.
So, address the man as JD. He's name aware. He picked JD. It's not our fault he picked a child's name for himself.
Or you could actually call him by his title. That would be Vice President, if you haven't heard.
"Vance is not exactly a profile in courage. His job in the army was writing press releases....." Now, there's a gem of insight, reflecting the keen mental prowess of our intrepid poster.
It must have been interesting work, for a Marine, to be writing press releases for the Army.
Gusty Winds said..."All of this liberal Russian boogeyman hatred in America partially extends from the outright lie the "Russia interfered in our election" (2016) and "Trump colluded with Russia and is a Russian asset.""
Hillary Clinton has a lot to answer for, but never will.
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