Said Sergey V. Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, quoted in
"U.S. and Russia Pursue Partnership in a Head-Spinning Shift in Relations/The two sides met in Saudi Arabia for their most extensive discussions in years. In addition to Ukraine, business ties were on the table" (NYT).
Speaking to reporters after the meeting, American officials did not dwell on Russia’s violation of international law in attacking Ukraine, its alleged war crimes or the three years of devastation that Russian shelling and bombardment had wrought in parts of Ukraine. Instead, they repeatedly lauded Mr. Trump for trying to stop the fighting by talking to Russia in a way that his predecessor did not.
“For three years,” Mr. Rubio said, “no one else has been able to bring something together like what we saw today, because Donald Trump is the only leader in the world that can.”...
“We were not invited to this Russian-American meeting in Saudi Arabia,” Mr. Zelensky said while on a visit to Turkey. “It was a surprise for us — I think for many others as well.”
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108 comments:
In this context, consider that the Doomsday Clock people just moved the setting from 90 seconds to midnight to 89 seconds to midnight. You see, AFTER Trump arrived the world became MORE dangerous. When Biden's puppetmasters were launching weapons into Russia we were soooooo much safer!
With all credibility now squandered:
https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/2025-statement/
" its alleged war crimes or the three years of devastation that Russian shelling and bombardment had wrought in parts of Ukraine."
Did Russia dwell on the ten years of shelling of ethnic Russians in Ukraine by the ethnic Ukrainian army? Shelling with only stopped recently with the Russian capture of all of the territory in artillery range of Donetsk City, for example? Although I think that the Ukrainians are still using HIMARS to attack cities with cluster munitions.
There are lots of war crimes accusations to go around. Maybe the US could lift its objection to a UN Security Council investigation of Bucca that the Russians requested, and that we vetoed...
You won't read about this stuff in the New York Times though, will you.
"because Donald Trump is the only leader in the world that can.”...
Progressives: "That's because he's a tool of Putin!!!"
Those of us that lived through the 80's when Democrats like Bernie Sanders extolled the virtues of the USSR, the 90's when Bill Clinton began normalizing relationships with Russia and Communist China while Tim Walz travelled to China, and then the 2000s as Progressives told us we needed to learn to have peace with Islamic nations rather than war; we wonder why having peace talks is now verboten.
If I were Europe, I would go cut a deal with Putin, blame the whole war on America —It was our fault, and cut the Americans out and rebuild their economies on cheap Russian resources and set up tariff barriers with the US.
I will get off of my soap box after saying this: Blinken and Bided fully understood Russia's position, they just thought that Russia was weak, and we were strong, and they could use Russia's legitimate concern for its own security to force Russia to take on the odium of starting a war that we had set as the trap that we thought was going to bring down the Russian Federation, the same way the Soviet Union broke up, and allow us to waltz in and scoop up their untold trillions in natural resources at looter's prices, and leave China friendless to face us alone in the Pacific.
It was a bold strategy, Cotton, but it didn't work out.
peace breaks out
rich, and Dr We Evil most hurt
The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists has been around a long time. It was founded right after WWII by Einstein and others involved in the Manhattan Project, many of them not scientists at all. They were, and still are, a small and unrepresentative group of far left ideologues. They were among the KGB's "useful idiots" in the Cold War, working hard for the US to surrender to the inevitability of unitary communist world government. With victory in the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union, they latched on to migration, climate change, biological and chemical warfare, racial disparities, and the rest of the usual left-wing laundry list. They are now no different than any other Soros tentacle working for our enslavement and impoverishment, and although I haven't checked, I'd bet next month's mortgage payment that they have a heavy influx of tax dollars through USAID and a myriad of other government agencies and NGO cutouts.
The presence of the CIA puppet is not needed.
Without USAID, they couldn't afford to send the coup representative to the meeting of democratic peers.
Jaq said... If I were Europe, I would go cut a deal with Putin, blame the whole war on America —It was our fault...
Yes, it was our fault. President Trump explicitly agrees.
It's been depressing to watch neocons and Cold War deadenders like Instapundit write enthusiastically about the need to "bleed Russia" at the expense of every remaining combat-age male in Ukraine, all while pretending the U.S. didn't help drive the 2014 coup against that country's elected president.
I think past a certain age it's hard for some people to process new events without forcing them into a template that only fit actual circumstances decades ago.
The best thing politically for Zelensky is to have the war end with him being able to credibly claim that the US stabbed him in the back. It kills me to say it but Ukraine can't win this war. The Russians might be able too. The Dems and the Euros seemingly want the war to go on until what exactly? The Russians win anyways because the Ukrainians ran out of soldiers to fight with? The Euros are fools or knaves to think that the US was ever going to put troops on the ground there, Dem or Republican presidents.
Zelensky's complaint that he wasn't invited reminds me of that scene in "Tombstone" when Doc turns to Johnny Tyler in the street and says, "Oh, I forgot you were there. You may go now."
Trump is a deal maker. Finding stuff to add and arrange so that everybody comes out ahead.
Zelensky is a dead man walking, so to speak. He'll be forced to hold elections before any deal is finalized. He's the illegitimate president of Ukraine. His term of office expired long ago. The final resolution will be signed by the newly elected president.
Kate @12:41pm. Hilarious. Exactly!
This is reminiscent of the September 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and the Soviet Union to carve up Poland. I suspect this is less about ending the war in Ukraine and more about US-Russia relations.
Is it Zelensky or Zelenskyy? Choose one, MSM!
And I have an alternate more accurate take, NYTs:
"Writing about the meeting later, then NYT"s did not dwell on Ukraine's violation of international law in shelling civilians in Donbas, its violation of the Maidan agreements, its attacking the breakaway Republics, its alleged war crimes, or the three years of devastation caused by Ukraine's refusal to negotiate. Instead, they repeatedly attacked Mr. Trump for trying to stop the fighting by talking to Russia in a way that his predecessor did not."
I just hope Zelensky can continue to not hold an election, and "save Democracy".
How we going to have WW III if Trump keeps negotiating a peace deal? Talk about a far-right extremist!
The art of the deal.
Is peace an endpoint for Russia, or a rest stop?
Just remember that a boatload of manufacturing was shipped to Communist China in, supposedly, an effort to westernize the People's Republic. Last I looked, Communists were still in charge, speech is not free, and their military continues grow while CC's sphere of influence grows worldwide.
"American officials did not dwell on Russia’s violation of international law in attacking Ukraine,"
This caused an eye-roll from me. Do they not teach Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War anymore? There's no such thing as international law. Nations do whatever they want to do and think they can get away with. Our nation and our allies are hurt if our negotiators don't go the bargaining table intrinsically knowing this.
How much, in percentage terms, is the US funding the Ukrainian side of this war?
This is reminiscent of the September 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and the Soviet Union to carve up Poland.
Which did result peace on the Eastern Front, until Germany attacked USSR in violation of that pact (and in which, if I understand history correctly, the Ukrainians were somehow involved).
Kaki is referring to the deal between Hilter and Stalin by which part of Poland was cut off and given to Ukraine, after which Stehpan Bandera, a national hero of Ukraine still, sent his force of nationalists in to cleanse that territory of Poles, and Jews, too, BTW, and Hungarians, any non Ukrainians who might have lived there. Polish farmers were murdered with their families on their farms, or simply locked in their homes, which were burned. Remember, this guy remains a national hero of Ukraine. Stephan Bandera's grandson Stevie Bandera lives in Canada, and commented once that he had visited Ukraine and was "treated like a god."
So it's always good to be reminded that Ukraine is a fake country pasted together by a rogues gallery of dictators from Lenin to Stalin to Hitler to Khrushchev. That the actual boundary of the ethnic nation of Ukraine is far smaller than the borders that fell under their control at the fall of the USSR, and that the Ukrainians had a plan to continue the kinds of things that they had done after the Hitler Stalin agreement.
There was no way that Ukraine could have regained control of the ethnic Russian regions, but if they did, they were going to be cleansed of ethnic Russians. There was no way that we could have, in good conscience, fought a war with Russia to hand over these people to the Ukrainians' tender mercies.
If Ukraine comes out of this with Odessa, they can consider themselves lucky and thank Donald Trump.
Russia has no reason to invade high population, low resource, Russia. Invasions are like voltage, the flow in one direction, towards resources away from population. And of course the same dynamic leaves Russia vulnerable to the same kinds of thoughts occurring to China, which we can use.
I mean that Russia has zero incentive to invade Europe. Hitler was after Russia's resources because he couldn't find them in Europe, which he controlled.
While I have always been sympathetic to the Ukrainian cause, I have always been opposed to the blank check approach to aid. To what end and what cost do we continue propping up this almost failed state? The idea of Ukraine joining NATO was always a losing proposition, as they couldn't possibly contribute 3-5% of their GDP. It was always a one way deal. Putin has failed as his goal was to defeat the existing government and install a pro-Russian government. He needs a way out. Zelensky has no real say. He only exists if the US and NATO support him. If we stop funding him, Europe doesn't have the money to fill the void.
Putin needs a way to exit and make it look like a win. It's a loss no matter what. He didn't get what he wanted and he wiped out his already meager young male population.
"Putin needs a way to exit and make it look like a win. It's a loss no matter what. He didn't get what he wanted and he wiped out his already meager young male population."
This is projection as pure as a Tiger Woods wedge shot in his prime.
How long before a lefty federal judge issues the TRO . . .
Marco Rubio looking like a diplomat of substance here. Not Jimmy Baker stature - yet - but a worthy envoy. Trump, with Rubio's deployment, has put the Ukraine on notice now, and with them, Europe - i.e., NATO. Not mentioned, because they're irrelevant: The United Nations. Also not mentioned, but in everybody's mind: China.
Nobody has said this yet unless it’s in the comments at the NYT which I couldn’t read via uploading to Pocket to get past the paywall. This has nothing to do with Ukraine. Thinks about the last week or so with VP Vance in Europe. They have been put on notice. “We’ll broker the peace but ya’ll got stand on your own two feet while we deal with a bigger threat”
This is about China. It’s one of the reasons why it was held in Saudi Arabia. It also aligns with Trump’s stance on Panama and Greenland. Russia is ruled by mob boss like thugs and Trump has some experience there. He’s neutralizing relationships developed via Chinese belt and road initiative, dangling sweet US access and biz dev to Russia for calling the dawgs off but still tossing some Crimean red meat, and boosting the profile of Saudi Arabia to get the Abraham Accords back on track.
We can’t trust Russia and Trump knows that but Trump can cater to their egos just as they cater to his. He’ll pull it off and we just may see China get a bit isolated. Whether it can outlast his term remains to be seen but a very strong Middle East with a diminished Iran, a Europe carrying own weight against a potential re-emerged threat in post-Trump Europe and stronger US ties in the Pacific with an isolated China would be a remarkable feat and definitely anchor Trump’s second term as a historical success.
LLR-democratical Rich: "This is reminiscent of the September 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop..."
LOL
No.
It's not.
But you've got nothing else so what the heck, right?
Ha! Aggie put it down before I could hit “Publish”. I tip my hat to you Aggie, from an old SWC Mustang! Gig’em and Pony Up!
Phaedrus: "This is about China. It’s one of the reasons why it was held in Saudi Arabia. It also aligns with Trump’s stance on Panama and Greenland. Russia is ruled by mob boss like thugs and Trump has some experience there. He’s neutralizing relationships developed via Chinese belt and road initiative, dangling sweet US access and biz dev to russia for calling the dawgs off but still tossing some Crimean red meat, and boosting the profile of Saudi Arabia to get the Abraham Accords back on track."
All correct, and there's more but this hits all the major piints.
The attempt to create the necessary wedges between the russkis and our only real existential threat to the US, the ChiComs, is what has the dems like LLR-democratical Rich up in arms since the dems have been and are fully in alliance with the ChiComs and the islamic supremacists against the US.
The dem-ChiCom / dem-islamic supremacist alliance explains pretty much every action you've seen the dems take over the last 40 years...with the assistance of far too many compromised/bought off republicans with Mitch McConnell at the head of that crew.
There is no question that Ukrainians were dying in huge numbers in service of the US's geo-strategic interests in the Pacific. I would argue with Phaedrus's language and spin, but not the substance of what he says. China is the reason that Rubio is on board with this. Europe too, BTW, is ruled by gangsters and thugs, who are happy to imprison anybody who points it out on social media.
What's the matter with Putin? He was supposed to be CONQUERING THE WORLD!!!, and yet he hasn't even taken Eastern Ukraine or Kharlov. Of course, it could be part of his incredibly devious plan, so deep and so long range that no mortal - except Putin - can understand it. LOL.
for 1000th time. Who controls the Donbas or even Ukraine is none of our business. Moscow ruled Ukraine for 500 years and no in the USA gave a damn.
Now suddenly who controls the Donbas is a vital USA interest. Give me a break! Trump wants peace. And that is the only USA interest in this slaughter.
In this context, consider that the Doomsday Clock people just moved the setting from 90 seconds to midnight to 89 seconds to midnight.
Trump’s proposal to cut US military spending in half far exceeds the wildest dreams and proposals of the formerly peacenik Chomsky left. The Doomsday Clock has always been a fraud targeting the dopiest American media.
Original Mike said...
“How much, in percentage terms, is the US funding the Ukrainian side of this war?“
35–45%
"War crimes!" got me to thinking. Ever since the use of Allied propaganda about German war crimes in Belgium in 1913 to rally recruiting, the notion that leaders of countries at war could enter into peace talks (even in the face of the pointless slaughter on the Western Front for 4 years) became unthinkable. Diplomacy is mostly incompatible with an idealistic, Good vs. Evil view of war and foreign policy. In the NYTimes article quoted by Althouse, you can already see the case against Trump: he betrayed Ukraine and the cause of "Our Democracy" just by talking to Putin. How dare an elected President presume to undercut the Deep State's strategic plans to bleed the evil Russian war machine and the eternal expansion of NATO?
"35–45%"
Kinda makes it "our" war, doesn't it? Or at least half our war. No wonder Russia wants to talk to us and Trump wants to talk to them.
Is Europe the rest? Does Ukraine contribute?
“Art of the deal” = give everything away before you start negotiating. 🤣
The Saudi’s own a lot of Ukrainian arable land. When someone tells you to fight for your country, always check who owns the assets because that is who you will be fighting for.
RCOCEAN: "Now suddenly who controls the Donbas is a vital USA interest. Give me a break! Trump wants peace. And that is the only USA interest in this slaughter."
As the SecDef in "Independence Day" stated, "that's not entirely accurate".
Ending the conflict in Ukraine is a strategic move that delivers on multiple key strategic objectives that feed several other larger strategic objectives related to desired eventual containment of The Dragon!
The Dragon of course being the ChiComs. Objectives which the dems oppose as a party because the dems are aligned with the ChiComs against the US.
And the dems were so confident of their ability to maintain power in the US that creeps like Swalwell knew he could doink a ChiCom spy and have the FBI cover it up and Diane Feinstein could have a ChiCom spy driver for 20 years and get away with it and ChiCom officials could shower Hunter Biden with cash and jewels and pay off biden's grandkids accounts and they would all just walk away.
"give everything away before you start negotiating"
What was your plan to keep Russia from taking Odessa that didn't put us on the brink of nuclear war? Or are you one of those people who think that it's "cowardly" not to risk nuclear war over borders thousands of miles and oceans away from our own?
"always check who owns the assets because that is who you will be fighting for."
You mean like BlackRock in Ukraine?
https://eraoflight.com/2022/08/12/monsanto-and-blackrock-are-buying-up-ukraine/
“Is Europe the rest? Does Ukraine contribute?”
Yes and yes.
Abacus Boy, LLR-democratical Rich: '“Art of the deal” = give everything away before you start negotiating"
Obambi gave Putin the Crimea.
Obambi gave Putin the Big Green Light to move into Syria as well.
Biden gave Putin Eastern Ukraine.
Putin oligarch pals paid 10's of $Millions into the Clinton slush fund.
Putin's oligarch pals paid millions directly to the biden crime family.
Blackrock and other financial houses paid off the New Soviet Democraticals to secure the rights to "rebuilding" a war-torn Ukraine...a deal worth a $trillion dollars...like a bigger version of James Biden, not a builder, getting lucrarive construction contracts worth $billions for "building" in Iraq.
Of course, the biden admin made sure the "sanctions" against russia were easily, EASILY, circumvented so 3rd party nations could resell russki commodities, into Europe!
Thanks for showing up Richie! I didn't know when you were going to pry yourself away from yahoo comments to rejoin us!
@Kaki sez: "Art of the deal” = give everything away before you start negotiating. 🤣...." But but Kaki - you haven't told us what you would do ! Give us your profound insights, bro ! And: Did the Saudis sit in on the discussions?
And to think I didnt even mention obambi, biden, hillary and FBI Director at the time Mueller selling off US uranium to Putin via his russki oligarch pals.
The democraticals, like New Soviet Democratical Richie, have been the absolute best gift to Putin that could possibly be imagined.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-money-has-the-us-given-ukraine-since-russias-invasion/
It’s a sellout
tommyesq said...
This is reminiscent of the September 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and the Soviet Union to carve up Poland.
Which did result peace on the Eastern Front, until Germany attacked USSR in violation of that pact (and in which, if I understand history correctly, the Ukrainians were somehow involved).
Stalin ordered the Holomodor, which caused millions of Ukrainians to die of starvation. When Hitler invaded, a lot of Ukrainians welcomed the Germans as liberators and some joined to fight against the Soviet Union. It’s hard to blame them.
As others have said, China is the big issue. Russia is secondary, Ukraine and Europe tertiary.
But Russia is third great power, can play the other two off against each other. Ukraine war benefits China by making Russia dependent. Ending Ukraine war benefits US by possibly limiting China influence, allowing full US pivot to East. Not nice for Ukraine, but inevitable.
Thanks, Meade.
"Since February 2022, the United States has allocated $113.4 billion in emergency funding to support Ukraine in wartime."
I had the impression we had provided even more; USAID could fund that out of their pocket change. (I kid, I kid).
It's not a "sellout," it's was a betrayal to lead Ukraine "down the primrose path," as it was framed at the beginning of the conflict over a decade ago when the US overthrew Ukraine's elected government through street mobs paid by USAID and ultranationalist snipers.
The war is over but for the dying. Russia has won. We don't have the weapons to give the Ukrainians, we can't give them Tomahawk cruise missles without risking nuclear war, and we can't beat them on the ground. Ukraine is out of soldiers.
Obama said it back when he was president, "Russia will always have escalation dominance because it is an existential war for them, and Ukraine is not a vital US interest." You can argue that the Russians are just paranoid, but every Russian leader since Gorbachev has said that it would be, including those in the opposition, so your opinion, formed probably by Ukrainian propaganda, doesn't count.
Trump is the man who is not burdened by what has been, who takes the situation as it is, and who recognizes that every soldier who dies in this war, when it is obvious that Ukraine can't win, is dying in vain.
If we don't end it soon, Russia will take Odessa. Russia is approaching Kiev every day. The longer it goes on, the worse it will be for Ukraine.
Losing a war sucks. Ukraine screwed up, they trusted Joe Biden, and his judgements about Russia were wrong. I guess Ukraine can keep fighting until the Russian Army pulls his body out of a bunker, like Hitler did, but it would have been better for Germany if Hitler had surrendered when his military leaders knew that victory was impossible, meaning a year earlier or so, long before the Red Army got to Berlin.
"Stalin ordered the Holomodor"
Do you have a link to the text of that order? Or was that mass starvation caused by collectivization of the farms, which was going on at the time, that and which coincided with a horrific drought. We have plenty of historical records of Stalin's collectivization of agriculture, which led to the starvation of millions of non-Ukrainians too, BTW.
I think this discussion illuminates the effectiveness of Trump’s position. All this stuff needs to be set aside. Men are dying, cities are being destroyed. Let’s make a deal.
I think it was Churchill who said, “Jaw, jaw, jaw is better than war, war, war.”
Larry J said,
“ Stalin ordered the Holomodor, which caused millions of Ukrainians to die of starvation. When Hitler invaded, a lot of Ukrainians welcomed the Germans as liberators and some joined to fight against the Soviet Union. ”
9 out of 10 Ukrainians fought in the Soviet Red Army and only 1 out of 10 joined the German Nazi Army.
Ukrainian nationalist committed massacres primarily against Polish and Jewish population in Nazi held territories.
None of these can be explained by Holodomor.
Holodomor was an atrocity perpetrated by Soviet Communists. It was based on the Marxian theory of class struggle, it had nothing to do with race. Anybody who had any surplus grain was treated as a class enemy by Soviet Communists.
Trump’s proposal to cut US military spending in half far exceeds the wildest dreams and proposals of the formerly peacenik Chomsky left.
Those cuts are proposed only and contingent on cuts by both Russia and China doing cuts in their military spending. It is an offering to stop a new Cold War arms race. Trump is quite clear that he wants to cut waste in defense but that overall defense cuts (beyond jettisoning DEI) will be based on potential adversaries backing out of an arms race.
Because the media is against Trump; they are acting like the cuts are already certain, which is part of what is tanking defense cuts. The other part is defense contractors losing some of the grift from the wasteful spending. It is not like Boeing is delivering the new AF1 (fixed price contract, so that's really on Boeing) or T-7 in a timely fashion.
I am happy for Marco.
trump tells ukraine they should have never started the war..The guy is a criminal traitor selling ukraine down the river which we all knew anyway. UKRAINE DID NOT START THE WAR..WTF You could see this coming a mile away.. Putin is ecstatic!
The choice of Saudia Arabia for their meeting is a bit of a slap at Europe, too, once you think about it. Wasn't it usually the case the the diplomats met in Switzerland, back when Europe was important?
My take on why Zelenskyy was not invited is that Trump is sending him a message that no matter what impression he got from being able to haul Joe Biden around by the ear, he is fundamentally an American puppet and he gets what we give him. As I said, that's my take.
This guy is a total S BAG...Trump, who said last week that he and President Vladimir Putin spoke by phone about ending the war, has made several comments bolstering the Russian president. He said during an interview with Fox News last month that Ukraine should not have fought when it was invaded by Russia... Exactly just give up everything and kiss the ring like trump expects from his court of trumpers...What a traitoris S BAG..
I guess the Democrats are going to run on a platform of endless war.
As I've mentioned more than once before, I always address people by their chosen handles as long as they do the same for me. Since 'gilbar' is too arrogant or hypocritical or stupid to follow such an obviously fair policy, even when reminded, and insists on dragging me into threads where I have not have anything to say, I will point out that GILBAR looks like the initials of the latest frontier in human sexuality. Have you come to terms with LGBTQ+? Now you have to accept G.I.L.B.A.R.: granny porn, incest, llama-loving, bestiality, anilingus, and rape. G.I.L.B.A.R.! If you don't, you're a reactionary bigot. Say it again: G.I.L.B.A.R.!
1) Russia started the war. I saw it. It was on television. For a month we saw newsreels of Russian tanks doing "exercises" next door to Ukraine, while the Russians were demanding that the Ukrainians submit to the Russians' demands. Then we saw the Russians attacking Ukraine - we did NOT see Ukraine attacking Russia (until later, of course, as part of a defensive war).
2) Russia lost the war. The war showed that Russia is a pale shadow of the feared Soviet Union. Remember the Fulda Gap? That was supposed to be the weak spot in NATO defenses that, if breached by a Soviet attack, would have left western Europe open to Soviet invasion. Russia couldn't even sweep through the defenses of a third-rate (at best) military power power aided (only aided) by NATO.
3) Yes, of course this war should be ended now. It should have been ended years ago, and would have been if the US had had a President. Now we do.
But don't let's forget: We no longer need to wonder whether Russia can overwhelm NATO at the Fulda Gap.
A favorable outcome for Putin will help motivate the European folks to kick down 5% for defense.
NY Times brilliant strategy, that they sneer at Rubio for not employing: "List all the really bad things that Russia's done and is doing. By insulting the folks you're trying to strike a deal with, you vastly increase your chances for diplomatic success." If this is Establishment wisdom, worthy of being dispensed as the best way to ridicule He Who Must Not Be Named, ask not for whom the bell tolls.
Ukraine signed some law that says they can't meet with Russia, but Z is butthurt he wasn't invited?
BTW, lots of shuttle diplomacy happens in this world.
https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-law-declaring-talks-with-putin-impossible/
Those who claim that Russia is winning might want to think about these facts: 1. A few months ago they started using civilian cars, golf carts, motorcycles, and mopeds to take their troops into battle, because they were running out of armored vehicles. They evacuate their dead and wounded (when they do - they often don't bother) on wheelbarrows. 2. In the last couple of weeks they have started using donkeys and horses to bring supplies to the front lines, because they don't even have enough unarmored vehicles for that. 3. They are sending troops into battle on crutches. 4. The North Koreans, whose presence Jaq was denying a few weeks ago, had to be pulled out of the line after Ukrainians killed or wounded 4,000 of the 12,000 or so Kim sent. 5. Russians on social media complain that they can't go anywhere without being slaughtered by drones, and that their commanders routinely send them on attacks were only 10% survive.
Holodmor hurt Ukraine more because Ukraine had most of the kulaks, rich peasants.
And yes, this is why some Ukrainians helped the Nazis. It should be noted Bandera was interned in a concentration camp, and only got out by agreeing to help them...
Also, the Lviv area is what was purged of Poles...but its a crazy city that was called Lember, Lviv, and Lvov...and lots of population transfers occurred in WW2.
Vance: Look, you're not invited to the meeting, Vovchyk.
Zelensky: What? Why?
Vance: Describe to me what Donald Trump looks like.
Zelensky: Um...
Vance: Does he look like a bitch?
Zelensky: What?
Vance: Does he look like a bitch?
Zelensky: No.
Vance: Then why'd you try to fuck him like a bitch, Vovchyk?
Zelensky: I didn't...
Vance: Oh yes you did, Vovchyk. Oh yes you did. And Donald Trump doesn't like to get fucked by anyone except Mrs. Trump...and Stormy Daniels.
You ever read the bible, Vovchyk?
Harun said...
“Holodmor hurt Ukraine more because Ukraine had most of the kulaks, rich peasants.
And yes, this is why some Ukrainians helped the Nazis. “
Almost all Nazi collaborators were from Western Ukraine, where nobody died from Holodomor, because it was part of Poland at the time. It was annexed by USSR only in 1939.
Russia and China are both 2nd rate military powers- at best. I've got a fairly good memory- and I remember all the "experts" saying Russian forces would occupy Kiev within a month. Seems that didn't happen.
Ukraine's tactics are forcing a reappraisal of our own military and tactics. I've read a lot of MilSF, and Falkenberg's Legion didn't use drones, nor any other series I've read. Battlefield robots in some. Autonomous massive near indestructible tank, The Bolos in others- but not cheap, inexpensive drones. Whichever you want to call, Kill one or Zone of Lethality, drone warfare has made it bigger and wider. In ancient days it was literally the length or a spear or sword or war hammer. Then, arrow range. Then musket then artillery then machine gun range. In WWI the distance between opposing trenches was 50-250 yards. The area in between the kill zone. Now a drone operator miles from the front can observe individual enemies from a surveillance drone- and target and kill individual soldiers anywhere in a few hundred square miles. It's gone from thousands of bullets to hundred of artillery shells expended to one or two cheap drones per enemy killed. So our military has learned lessons that came at Ukraine's and Russia' expense.
I'm not privy to Trump's thinking. But unless we're planning on going to war overseas, we don't need overseas bases for the Army. The Navy is another matter. Someone needs to continue sweeping the seas of pirates. And us in cooperation with other maritime nations, well, why not?
“ In this context, consider that the Doomsday Clock people just moved the setting from 90 seconds to midnight to 89 seconds to midnight.”
Haven’t we been mere minutes from doomsday since the clock was first rolled out 78 years ago?
Jersey Fled said...
“ In this context, consider that the Doomsday Clock people just moved the setting from 90 seconds to midnight to 89 seconds to midnight.”
Haven’t we been mere minutes from doomsday since the clock was first rolled out 78 years ago?
******************
Well, they can't just name it "The Concerned Scientists who Cried Wolf" now, can they....
"Ending the conflict in Ukraine is a strategic move that delivers on multiple key strategic objectives that feed several other larger strategic objectives related to desired eventual containment of The Dragon!"
Indeed, this thinking has the hallmarks of John Mearsheimer. A lot of wishful thinking coming from the Drago & White House. Problem is Trump is no Nixon and Rubio is no Kissinger. Putin doesn't forget.
“How much, in percentage terms, is the US funding the Ukrainian side of this war?“
The US "aid" to a large degree comprised sending at or near-end of life kit to Ukraine, and replacing it with fresh orders from US defense contractors. Under this arrangement the US got to upgrade its military hardware, employing tens of thousands of people in a domestically critical industry, road-test its hardware, and in the process both degraded the Russian war machine and exposed it for what it is -- a poorly equipped meat-grinding operation.
All of this has been: (i) financed by the privilege of the dollar (a privilege largely dependent on the fact that while the US acts as the world's hegemonic military backstop other countries will continue to buy and hold its treasury bonds) and (ii) without sending any US troops to die in the process. It is an unbelievably great deal for the US, and the new administration now pretends to be "aggrieved at having to pay for other people's wars". To borrow from Talleyrand, it is worse than a crime...
The US gets an astonishingly good deal from being (at the moment) the world's sole military superpower, supported by its allies and shaping the world to the rules it has written. We also get an amazing deal from the current Ukraine arrangements -- the Ukrainians are fighting and dying in what (unless you naively believe that Putin has only local aspirations) is really the West's fight. Of course others should pay more, but it is still a great deal for the US, for the reasons I stated. However the Trump administration are now wanting to walk away from our allies and turn inwards (save for threatening, in the last four weeks, Canada, Panama, Greenland and Gaza), you may find that, before too long, Pax Americana collapses rather quickly and the world becomes a chillier place for everyone. But just think about two things (of a multitude) for starters. First, who will help the US defend Taiwan, should China (perhaps reckoning that the US has given up "bailing out" its allies) decide to invade it? If you have already given up on that one as well, what are Trump's plans for our semi-conductor industry? Second, as Trump puts up tariffs and disavow the benefits of global free trade, why should the rest of the world continue to hold USD for the long term?
Instapunditeers have all of their neocon planted fantasies about what is going on in the war. It's over.
Oh come on, Dr Weevil, you don't even seem to be trying anymore. Ukrainian propaganda is kind of funny though.
"Pay no attention to the fact that each of our glorious victories is that much closer to the Dnieper!"
"Russia and China are both 2nd rate military powers- at best."
OK, cool, then I am sure that Europe won't mind sending troops and armor and taking them on themselves —Oh wait. One French general said that his troops would be slaughtered like so many majorettes if put up against Russian troops. Germans won't do it, Britain said that they need American guarantees and air cover, or they won't do it. And here Russia is using donkeys and golf carts and making their helmets out of shovels and frying pans! We could knock them over with a feather and we just won't do it!
Why don't we just start WW3 already? The Instapunditeers ask. None of the Russian nukes will work, I am assured, Russia and China have 2nd rate militaries, it will be a cakewalk!
"Russia started the war. I saw it. It was on television."
Oh, that's precious. Never change. Don't open a history book, you are perfect as you are.
Jaq, formerly "Timofei in Vermont , disingenously asks for a signed order from from Stalin setting off the Holomodor.
Belss his heart!
Here's some evidence to prove his dedication to contrived ignorance on this topic:
"A 1932 letter from Stalin to Lazar Kaganovich, a top Soviet official, emphasized the need to suppress Ukrainian nationalism and warned against "losing Ukraine." (RGASPI Archives, Moscow)
Politburo directives imposed extreme grain requisition quotas, leaving Ukrainian peasants without enough food to survive.
* Confiscation of Food & Repression
Soviet authorities forcibly took grain, livestock, and even household food supplies from Ukrainian villages, ensuring that peasants had nothing left to eat.
*The introduction of the "Law of Five Ears of Grain" (August 7, 1932) made it a crime punishable by execution or exile to take even small amounts of leftover grain from collective farms.
*Internal Soviet Reports Acknowledging Starvation
Reports sent to Stalin and the Politburo from local officials in Ukraine described widespread starvation, corpses in the streets, and cannibalism. Despite this, Stalin refused to relax grain requisitions or provide aid.
Telegrams from Ukrainian Communist leaders such as Vlas Chubar and Stanislav Kosior requested food relief, but Stalin rejected most of these appeals.
*Population Control Measures
In 1933, Stalin sealed the borders of Ukraine, preventing starving peasants from fleeing to other Soviet republics where food was available.
The Soviet government denied foreign aid and censored reports about the famine, falsely claiming that there was no crisis.
So, no Timofei, Stalin didn't have a signed order to kill all the Kulaks hanging in his Kremlin office, but not even the Russians today deny he was the driving force.
(ChatGPT)
LLR-democratical Rich: "Indeed, this thinking has the hallmarks of John Mearsheimer. A lot of wishful thinking coming from the Drago & White House. Problem is Trump is no Nixon and Rubio is no Kissinger. Putin doesn't forget."
LOL
You are such an idiot...who will do anything to keep pressure off the dems ChiCom allies.
The russkis couldnt maintain a couple squadrons and small land force effectively engaged in Syria and they sure arent sweeping across Ukraine and then the Baltics and Poland.
They have zero force projection capability at longer distances, particularly with a GDP 3/4 that of Italy.
Nope.
All of the dem/ChiCom aligned talking points are designed to keep the focus off China and to keep the money laundering thru Ukraine at scale.
ALL of the talking points.
And of course our German "allies" (wink wink) Of Nordstream 1 & 2 fame have already announced zero German troops are heading to Ukraine. And Starmer cant scrape up more than 1 or 2 combat ready and equipped battalions to back up his pathetic threats.
And the French? Yeah, they'll be there for ya....LOL.
Better go back for more talking point cut and pastes Abacus Boy. Your rhetorical gruel is running thin...
Better yet, Zelensky's money laundering boys are still accepting volunteers! Go for it...for once.
Jaq said...[quoting someone else]
"Putin needs a way to exit and make it look like a win. It's a loss no matter what. He didn't get what he wanted and he wiped out his already meager young male population."
This is projection as pure as a Tiger Woods wedge shot in his prime.
************
Yes! The Great Humanitarian Putin obviously has a soft spot for his young male population, no longer conscripting them by the hundreds of thousandss to be forced into battle untrained and ill-equipped.
Instead he's hired 10,000 NORK soldiers completely ignorant of modern warfare, and sent THEM to be slaughtered as they wander across treeless plains to be picked off by deadly drones costing only a few bucks.
snort
Jaq seems to think I'm an "Instapunditeer" (ugly neologism) and a neocon. No one who actually reads what I write here could possibly think that.
He doesn't seem to understand that Ukrainian strategy is to trade small amounts of land for vast heaps of Russian casualties. At the rate the Russians are advancing, they will capture Kyiv some time in the 22nd century, and will lose the entire population of Russia twice over doing it. Not going to happen.
Of course, an honest interlocutor would have addressed my points about the Russian use of motorcycles and donkeys and wheelbarrows, among other things, as signs of military failure. No surprise that Jaq doesn't do that.
I am trying to recall, who has paid out more millions directly to the biden crime family: Putin and his pals or the ChiComs (inclusive of cash, jewels, cocaine and trafficked underage prostitutes)?
Probably the ChiComs.
I did address your horses and donkeys and golf carts tidbit of news from the front. I said if that is the case,, then Germany, France, The UK, and Poland, all willing, should just waltz in and mop up. Why would they need American assistance?
The part about Russian soldiers on crutches is pretty funny, because there is a viral picture of a pair of Ukrainian recruiters turning around to look at a man with an artificial leg walking away from them carrying a bag of groceries.
The Ukrainians always accuse the other side of their own faults. Ukrainian propaganda is not somehow "authoritative" and quoting their propaganda does not settle an argument. Including regarding the widespread starvation that happened in the Soviet Union at the time of the collectivization of the farms, which the Ukrainians, for propaganda purposes, call the Holodomor.
Stalin was a bad man, I hope he is burning in Hell, he is responsible for the deaths of millions, but not just Ukrainians. The same thing happened in the Soviet Union as happened during the "Great Leap Forward" in Communist China.
It's interesting though how the Ukrainians cherish the hatred, and keep it alive with these stories.
Viciously nasty Jaq continues to pretend that what the Ukrainians want and need is troops. No, they need more F-16s, M-1 tanks, Patriot missiles, and ammunition. We have hundreds of F-16s that we don't even need, that cost more to dispose of in an ecologically sound way than it would cost to ship them to Ukraine, and we have supplied zero. The Europeans have supplied a dozen or so, soon to increase to 70-80, but we could easily supply 200 or more, which would help turn the tide. We've supplied 31 M-1 tanks, one for every 20 miles of the front line, and have thousands more. Again, we could easily supply a few hundred, and end the war in a matter of weeks without committing any foreign troops whatsoever. So why don't we?
As for the Ukrainians 'cherishing the hatred', the Russians are raping, torturing, and murdering civilians and captured soldiers in the occupied territories, beating anyone heard speaking Ukrainian, burning all Ukrainian books, shooting soldiers who surrender and in at least one case putting their heads on stakes and taking pictures. They continue to slaughter civilians with drones - they call it going on Safari, and say it's good practice for using them on soldiers. And they continue to hit hospitals, churches, schools, and apartment buildings with missiles, bombs, and drones every fucking night. Any normal human being should hate them for that, much more so the people they are doing this to. The fact that Jaq doesn't hate what they're doing shows what a contemptible swine he is.
Like I said, Ukrainian propaganda has no authoritative value to settle arguments.
I wouldn't know. I don't read Ukrainian propaganda. I read a bunch of Americans and other non-Ukrainians who study the war intensively, plus a few Ukrainian private citizens who give their personal opinions. That's why I know far more about it than Jaq ever will: he only reads lying propagandists like Scott Ritter and Kim Dotcom.
I cannot believe the amount of total bullshit that Rich professes to put forth as argument here. vomit.
Weevil,
Of course you read Ukrainian propaganda. I’ve been reading it for the last few years on the MSN home page (or whatever the default smattering of ludicrous news is on my work computer). Stories of the the wily Ukrainians drone-grenading hapless Russian conscripts. A Ukrainian fighter shooting down a Russian ground-attack aircraft presented as if it was the Ukrainian Air Force triumphant. A modest salient trumpeted like it was Zelensky before the gates of Moscow.
So it isn’t surprising you’re nattering absurdities about wheelbarrows and 90% casualties.
The Ukraine was never going to prevail in this war. That was a certainty from day one. And it was criminal that the vultures in the Biden Administration and their European cronies did not immediately act to bring an end to the war. They didn’t even try.
Russia has no shared goals with America. Instead, it has worked for the past 20 years to develop alliances with Iran, North Korea, Bashar Al Assad in Syria and China; in an attempt to rebuild the USSR. That won’t stop because Marco wants to make friends, or some Trump admin idiots think they can turn Russia against China. Russia has a 2,600 mile border with Russia and will not counter it.
This is incredibly foolish diplomacy that won’t work. And it’s morally bankrupt. I don’t want an alliance with war criminals. But I guess some Americans do. They’ll get the future they deserve.
CrackER:
(Address me by my full name and I'll address you by yours.)
I don't read MSN or any other network, and I haven't seen the stories you mention. I have repeatedly told you all where I get my news about the war, and recommended a dozen Twitter accounts that I find particularly useful, e.g. @TrentTelenko, @secretsqrl123, and @WarTranslated, two Americans and an Estonian. The last is particularly useful because he translates Russian social media, getting the facts right from the horse's mouth. Assaults with 90% casualty rates: that's what the Russians involved in them say! Donkeys and horses and wheelbarrows: the Russians using them post pictures. Hundreds of smashed vehicles lining the roads to the front on the Russian side: filmed and commented on by depressed Russians. North Korean allies: wounded Russians have posted video of their Korean fellow soldiers in hospital. Anyone who says I'm repeating Ukrainian propaganda is a liar or a fool. It's very easy to find out how the war is going, though it does take time to sift through the masses of evidence on Twitter and draw conclusions about what is likely to be true, what false, which accounts to read and which to avoid. I spend about an hour a day on it.
The Russians are proud, tough people with a chip on their shoulder. Trump showed before you need to be respectful as well as firm with them. The Obama/Biden people gave them license but treated them like punks. A bad idea.
Meade said...
"Original Mike said...
“How much, in percentage terms, is the US funding the Ukrainian side of this war?“
35–45%"
Which is, in my opinion 100% too much.
"This is incredibly foolish diplomacy that won’t work. And it’s morally bankrupt. I don’t want an alliance with war criminals. But I guess some Americans do. They’ll get the future they deserve."
Well, I guess you;re against our alliance with Israel and Bibi too, since both of whom have been committing war crimes in Gaza. See the international court for more details. And we are allies with the Saudis and the Turks, neither of whom are poster kids for ethical behavior. But y'know....
And we do have "shared goals with Russia". Goal 1 - prevent WW III. Goal 2 - Both are countries have majority Christian, with elected leaders, and have voters that want their Governments to keep their noses out of each other business.
Goal 3 - Neither country wants China to rule the world Goal 4 - both countries want free and fair elections in Ukraine. Or least one of them, Russia, does.
Only 5 mentions of "Nazi" in a discussion of 2025 current events involving Russia and Ukraine. That must be a record for Althouse.
Stop the fighting. Then let Putin be destroyed or prosecuted. Then let Ukraine be reformed. Some things are worse than other things, some dangers lead to worse outcomes if unmet, and there is a priority that can be followed logically.
I do hate what's happened to Ukraine. The chief culprits, after Putin, are the Obama administration, which oversaw the toppling of the elected (agreed, very corrupt) President and stood by as Russia annexed Crimea and Donetsk and Luhansk. Fast forward to February 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine and Biden offered Zelensky a ride out of Kiev. Do you think things would have been different if Trump had been President? My maternal grandmother is Ukrainian, so I am committed to their suppoty. But unless we're willing to actually put troops on the ground, we're just asking Ukraine and Russia to bleed to death.
I have nothing against Putin. Why should any American? He's standing up for Russia. There's no reason we and Putin cant get along, but we wont get along if we insist on sticking our nose into Russian-Ukraine Relations. We wouldn't tolerate Russia telling us what to do with Mexico. The Russians feel the same about their back yard.
Trump just hammered Zelenskyyy after ZZelensky attacked Trump. Why this Ukrainian begger is shooting his mouth off is a mystery. Who is he winning over by attacking Trump?
Everything Trump says is true. Zelennsky is dictator who refuses to hold elections, and has more or less banned all the opposition parties, locked down the country in martial law, and censors the press. But we must save Ukraine or "democracy will die in darkness" - LOL!
It is simply false that Zelenskyy "has . . . banned all the opposition parties" and adding a "more or less" doesn't make it true. As I have pointed out here at least four times before, there are 8 parties in the Verkhovna Rada, Zelenskyy's with 235 seats, two allied parties with 36 seats between them, three opposition parties with 71 seats, two other parties with 39 seats, and 24 independents. Three openly pro-Russian parties were banned, but most of their members are still in parliament as independents or members of new parties with less openly pro-Russian policies. Churchill not only banned the British Union of Fascists during World War II, he locked up its leader, Sir Oswald Mosley, despite his being a baronet and an elected member of Parliament. (Mosley married one of the notorious Mitford sisters in the Berlin home of Joseph Goebbels, with Hitler as a guest of honor.) There was a war on, and Mosley was a traitor. Why do I have to keep pointing out simple and easily-proven facts?
Of course, everything else RCOCEAN II writes in his 3:42pm comment is also either false or grossly exaggerated.
Dr Weevil said: [the] Ukrainian strategy is to trade small amounts of land for vast heaps of Russian casualties.
The governments of Russia and Ukraine have conducted "body exchanges" of fallen soldiers multiple times during the war. The ratio of Ukrainian dead to Russian dead returned since early 2024 is greater than 10:1. I don't think the strategy you attribute above to Ukraine is going as well as you believe.
Scrutineer doesn't seem to understand the implications of the Ukrainian strategy. If they are slowly retreating, the bodies of the vast numbers of Russians killed and the smaller number of Ukrainians killed will naturally be disproportionately on the Russian side of the front lines, where the Ukrainians will have to be exchanged and the Russians not, with fewer of both on the Ukrainian side of the front lines, where the Russian corpses will have to be exchanged, and the Ukrainians not. This will naturally skew the numbers. (That's leaving aside the fact that the Russians routinely abandon their dead and wounded on the battlefield, leaving whole fields of rotting corpses.) By the way, @squatsons is famous for his lying propaganda: not a reliable source.
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