So reads the filing quoted in "TikTok files court challenge to U.S. law that could lead to ban/The filing citing First Amendment and other grounds could prove to be an existential fight for one of the world’s most popular apps" (WaPo).
"Congress has never before crafted a two-tiered speech regime with one set of rules for one named platform, and another set of rules for everyone else.... [The government acted without] proof of a compelling interest, but on speculative and analytically flawed concerns about data security and content manipulation — concerns that, even if grounded in fact, could be addressed through far less restrictive and more narrowly tailored means."
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66 comments:
What if we call it a tax, like ObamaCare?
Arguably, a unified internet was an aberration rather than the norm, and a splinter net was always inevitable, if not a default state.
China has proven there's a lot of value in a splinter net. By restricting access to Western applications, China forced development of its own domestic systems. Today, the Chinese internet is its own ecosystem. Whereas the majority of the world uses a decidedly US based internet.
Given the ubiquity of the internet now, along with the power ML brings to applications, we're far beyond databases and forms. We're now at a point where private content policies can shape public opinion. That alone means the internet is going to splinter, and it should.
Many countries already have laws and limitations on foreign propaganda and influence in the media. Applying that to the internet is not only unsurprising, it's also nearly a necessity.
The risk of not managing the influence of technology in one's society is so massive, it simply cannot be ignored. As these rules come down, it's necessarily going to fragment the internet.
The biggest losers are the free flow of information, but that's a necessary causality of safety, and US internet companies by and large.
"Congress has never before crafted a two-tiered speech regime with one set of rules for one named platform, and another set of rules for everyone else"
Get ready, because in current and very near future America, this is going to be a feature, not a bug.
The federal government can probably constitutionally control what servers or banks TikTok deals with within the borders of the US, but I firmly believe that they don't have the power to prevent U.S. citizens from accessing Tik Tok servers in other countries. If the federal government really has that power, then we truly don't have a first amendment any longer.
Thank God someone spoke up for the 1st Admendment. Now do the ADL censorship law that Congress is just about to pass and give to Biden for signature.
OTOH, never underestimate the ability of the Liberal/Left SCOTUS judges and establishment hacks like Roberts to ignore the plain and traditional meaning of the Constitution to give the Uniparty Establishment a win.
The fun part is that they are pretending that our fascist Regime is are not spying on us through Google and Facebook.
And our evil government regime is protecting their giant corporate allies by taking out their competition so they can spy on the American people uncontested.
allowing China to own anything in this country is a scandal.
Not sure I agree with this. If TikTok were a publisher with its own viewpoints and editorials and the like, maybe. If it is merely a platform pursuant to Section 230, then it by definition has no viewpoint of its own, and can probably be banned without impinging on the First Amendment.
I am not surprised to see that Rich favors a censored Internet. Apparently, free speech is "a necessary causality of safety..."
“Free speech” completely looses its value once the government becomes completely ensconced in power.
It’s no longer a necessity, but rather an incumbency to maintaining power and control.
I have little doubt that China is using TikTok for espionage and propaganda purposes. That's the only justifiable reason to ban it. If they are not going to make that argument in court, then the government should lose.
[A forced sale ] is simply not possible: not commercially, not technologically, not legally....
Did they explain why?
Real American said...
allowing China to own anything in this country is a scandal.
Do you have a single historical example of where capital controls work well?
Sounds like Obama Care….
Congress critters went out of their way to say “it’s NOT a tax” it’s a shared responsibility payment which means it’s just a regulatory fee or whatever.
Then CJ Robert’s switched his vote and decided “it’s a TAX” after all.
Fucker.
Congress can ban foreigners from owning US companies.
This isn’t a close call. It doesn’t matter whether the foreigners own a media app or a manufacturing company.
Rich will happily allow his location chip be implanted, for safety, you know.
The Constitution defines American civil rights, not of foreign corporations, or Chinese government and affiliated enterprises.
The argument for preventing American citizens from accessing TikTok is that American citizens are the property of the US government, and accessing TikTok might make them less useful to that government.
"... but merely a regulation of TikTok’s ownership.... In reality, there is no choice.... [A forced sale ] is simply not possible: not commercially, not technologically, not legally.... If Congress can do this, it can circumvent the First Amendment by invoking national security and ordering the publisher of any individual newspaper or website to sell to avoid being shut down...."
Only if that "individual newspaper or website" is owned by the CCP. In which case, it's also a legitimate target.
Foreign governments and foreign communist Parties do not have 1st Amendment rights or protections.
[A forced sale ] is simply not possible:
Sure it is, it could happen tomorrow. If it weren't the case that US enemy CCP views TikTok as a weapon to be used against the US
Yancey Ward said...
The federal government can probably constitutionally control what servers or banks TikTok deals with within the borders of the US, but I firmly believe that they don't have the power to prevent U.S. citizens from accessing Tik Tok servers in other countries.
If TikTok wants to completely leave the US, it's welcome to do so. No business offices, no servers, no interaction with US banks / credit card companies, no interactions with US advertisers, etc. In that case they can quite properly ignore any US gov't edicts.
But just as we've seen with online gambling, if you want to do business IN the US, then the US Gov't can tell you "no".
I expect that TikTok trying to run for US users from foreign servers would quickly run into serious bandwidth and latency issues, and become unworkable.
But if the CCP would rather do that, than give up their weapon against America, that's their choice.
However, controlling servers IN the US is not their choice, it's our choice.
And it can be pulled
The purpose of free speech is to promote a marketplace of ideas. How about if there is no such marketplace? Let's look at American universities. The vast majority of them -- especially the elite ones -- promote only one version of the so-called "truth." In other words, students are not being exposed to a marketplace of ideas. Most institutions in the U.S. -- the MSM, Hollywood, the big social media platforms (with the notable exception of X), etc. -- are similar. How about TikTok? Does it promote a marketplace of ideas? No. Are its addicted users likely to seek alternate viewpoints elsewhere? No. So how does TikTok further the purpose of free speech?
I should have knocked the block off that professor who told me way back in 1988 that calling the mainland Chinese "Red Chinese" was nekulturny.
Oh, and I can certainly see someone creating a TicTok, or maybe a TicToc, company with all the same features as the current TikTok, but a different promotion algorithm, once TikTok goes away.
I dont' believe that teh CCP would be able to sue for Trademark infringement in that case.
"I have little doubt that China is using TikTok for espionage and propaganda purposes."
I can confirm to you with 100% certainty that they are. You'll just have to take my word on that.
If parents and those in positions of responsibility would for one second take their heads out of the butts and actually do their jobs by informing their children and the public in as un-classified way as they've done in the past (they've done it with CNWDI, they did it in Vietnam, and they've done it with intelligence tradecraft secrets), then TikTok wouldn't have any market-share whatsoever.
So many of our problems, like drugs for instance (I know that's not the greatest example), could be solved overnight if they were dealt with on the consumer side instead of the regulatory side.
TikTok is absolutely an espionage, propaganda, and biometric and psychographic data-mining tool for the PRC. Our government knows this and has the evidence, and there are ways of sharing that evidence with the American people without having to pass legislation clearly in opposition of the 1st Amendment.
But it is 'our government', so we already know what they won't do...
Start taking Chinese lessons.
Our country is so fucked up we can't last too much longer.
I welcome our panda overlords...
Labor and environmental arbitrage, State's Choice, diversity, immigration reform, sexism... genderism, and practical and actual slavery are just not enough reason to abstain from PRC and affiliated enterprises.
There's no constitutional right for ChiComs to spy on Americans.
A lawyer wrote in a Complaint, "obviously unconstitutional?"
Whatever happened to FRCivP 1? A "short and plain statement of the facts."
Apparently, free speech is "a necessary causality of safety..."
We'll see about that just as soon as it's the Republicans who are in charge of deciding what speech will be allowed.
So we allowed the Soviet Union to start up a broadcast network during the Cold War? Start a newspaper maybe? I seem to recall the FCC has always controlled what was allowed to be freely distributed? I am not sure we need to do it with TikTok, but I am also not sure that it is without precedent.
China is using for espionage. LOL. Tell me how that works. As for propaganda, everyone uses everything for "propaganda".
Unlike like some, I'm not snowflake, and i can handle "propaganda". Its just words.
Blogger Rocco said...
What if we call it a tax, like ObamaCare?
Why not call it a "Gag Order"?
Like most things, there are reasonable solutions to these kinds of problems. And, like most things, those in power like the status quo because it keeps them in power.
The reasonable solution here is a strong data privacy act (or constitutional amendment):
* Each individual owns all of their data. This includes tracking data, medical data, search history, etc. If it's about you, you own it.
* Your data is not to be aggregated, sold, transferred or even collected without express, explicit and easily understood consent.
** All consent is revokable.
** You can license your data, but that license can be revoked at any time for any or no reason.
** You must of of age of consent (18?) to license your data. This means companies like TikTok and Facebook cannot use minor's data to feed the algorithms that present content.
* The penalty for using data without consent are criminal starting with the CEO.
* This applies to any entity that connects to US. Violation will include fines and termination of their ability to connect (this is a tricky technical challenge, but should be there).
* The act applies to all governments without exceptions.
There are some details to be worked out, but the gist is the 4th Amendment needs to be beefed up and applied to private companies, too.
Essentially, we need a significantly.
RCOCEAN II said...
"China is using for espionage. LOL. Tell me how that works."
>>>>>>How about, large server farms controlled by ChiCom nationals, with plenty of computer power to engage in year-round hacking of American public and private networks to gain access to proprietary data, technology and military secrets."
There are many valid points made above (not looking at you LLR-Democratical Rich).
But we must remember the Tik Tok legislation is simply the first major step against the ultimate target: Elon Musk and X.
The usual suspects will no doubt generate a russian collusion hoax targeting Musk to justify the Tik Tok treatment against X and then piggy back off that to remove Musk's clearances needed to run SpaceX and StarLink to force him out there.
I suspect we will also see even more federal agency lawsuits against other Musk companies (what is it? 17 now?).
Musk has crossed The New Soviet Democraticals Rubicon, just like Cuellar.
There are many valid points made above (not looking at you LLR-Democratical Rich).
But we must remember the Tik Tok legislation is simply the first major step against the ultimate target: Elon Musk and X.
The usual suspects will no doubt generate a russian collusion hoax targeting Musk to justify the Tik Tok treatment against X and then piggy back off that to remove Musk's clearances needed to run SpaceX and StarLink to force him out there.
I suspect we will also see even more federal agency lawsuits against other Musk companies (what is it? 17 now?).
Musk has crossed The New Soviet Democraticals Rubicon, just like Cuellar.
Also, Fentanyl, or rather precursors made in China, which migrate across our Southern border. George "Fentanyl" Floyd syndrome is a clear and progressive condition in America. Perhaps an empathetic entreaty to the Oriental opium trade of yesteryear. Tick tock.
The Sino-Fauci pandemic. Just follow Democratic precedent and label it as a purveyor of misinformation, disinformation, and malinformation, with a neo-National Socialist orientation.
RCOCEAN II said...
Unlike like some, I'm not snowflake, and i can handle "propaganda". Its just words.
*************
Oh really? You've handled Hamas's obvious propaganda about Israeli "genocide" pretty badly.
Tiktok pushes virulent racism and antisemitism. There have been exposes in mainstream news sources where it was proven. According to people I work with outside the US, tiktok is banned in many countries for causing sectarian violence and racism. I was told it is well-known abroad that tiktok is a tool being used by the Chinese government to cause problems in enemy countries
I’m sorry, but I don’t see the problem. None of the US social media or internet companies are allowed to operate in China. Not Facebook, not Instagram, not Google. Why should the US allow a Chinese social media company to operate In the US? This is a simple trade issue.
The part of the bill explicitly referring to TikTok doesn’t really even make a national security argument, it more or less just says TikTok has 270 days that can be extended once by 90 days, while separately here is a process to use for apps that are shown to be specific threats to national security, as shown by a required public report submitted to Congress. Guessing the bill writers know this is a potential legal issue as there is explicit language that makes it clear that TikTok (or other companies owned by ByteDance) can be submitted through the other process if a court finds singling out TikTok to be unconstitutional.
If the court decides singling out TikTok is unconstitutional under this law, that part can be scrapped without having to throw out the provision that deals with apps that actually present a threat to national security. Hence why it was included separately.
The free speech argument is a red herring. TiKTok doesn't create any speech; it hosts speech made by others. It doesn't offer opinions or editorials, it doesn't publish it's own stories. If I build a wall and allow others to post comments on it, the government doesn't infringe my free speech rights when it passes a law saying walls can't be built from Chinese bricks.
Censorship of social media we like.
Greg the Class Traitor said...
But just as we've seen with online gambling, if you want to do business IN the US, then the US Gov't can tell you "no".
I expect that TikTok trying to run for US users from foreign servers would quickly run into serious bandwidth and latency issues, and become unworkable.
But if the CCP would rather do that, than give up their weapon against America, that's their choice.
However, controlling servers IN the US is not their choice, it's our choice.
And it can be pulled
I am just shocked that so many normally intelligent people are cheering the US Government as the government blocks US citizens access to outside sources of information.
Douglas B. Levene said...
I’m sorry, but I don’t see the problem. None of the US social media or internet companies are allowed to operate in China. Not Facebook, not Instagram, not Google. Why should the US allow a Chinese social media company to operate In the US? This is a simple trade issue.
You have no problem with the US government blocking your access to information produced by other countries.
You want Big Brother to protect you from those nasty awful tik tok posts by people from other countries.
Is there a sale on extra stupid flake breakfast cereal going on right now?
For obvious reasons the government(s) should not force TikTok to do anything -- divestment, censorship, etc. Doing so abridges TikTok's rights and the rights of US citizens and other residents of the USA who choose to use TikTok.
Dave Begley said...
There's no constitutional right for ChiComs to spy on Americans.
Do Americans have to allow our government to keep us from seeing outside sources of information?
Should we allow our government to keep us from seeing outside information?
Joe Smith said...
Start taking Chinese lessons.
Our country is so fucked up we can't last too much longer.
I welcome our panda overlords...
China is more fucked up than we are at a fundamental level. Their demographics are almost infinitely worse.
But more than that there is still a core of citizenry in the US that understands trusting your government with filtering what you see is a bad idea. They do not know anything other than kneeling to your government in China.
People on this board are just being a bit slow today. They will figure it out eventually.
Jupiter said...
The argument for preventing American citizens from accessing TikTok is that American citizens are the property of the US government, and accessing TikTok might make them less useful to that government.
+1.
It seems a lot of people here wish to ask Uncle Joe Shitshispants for permission on what apps they can download and what news and content they can view from other countries.
Banning TikTok is so obviously unconstitutional...
US Senator helps TikTok make its case:
"Some wonder why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down, potentially, TikTok or other entities of that nature. If you look at the postings on TikTok and the number of mentions of Palestinians relative to the other social mediat sites, it's overwhelmingly so among TikTok broadcasts. So I'd note that's of real interest, and the President will get the chance to take action in that regard."
- Mitt Romney
Rich said...
If the court decides singling out TikTok is unconstitutional under this law, that part can be scrapped without having to throw out the provision that deals with apps that actually present a threat to national security. Hence why it was included separately.
Rich is just saying the quiet part out loud.
This is about shutting down entities that are not colluding directly with the US government and X is next.
This is the key distinction between National Socialism and International Socialism by the way. The Communists "nationalize" big businesses. The NAZI's team up with them to suppress the citizenry.
Rich said...
Arguably, a unified internet was an aberration rather than the norm, and a splinter net was always inevitable, if not a default state.
China has proven there's a lot of value in a splinter net. By restricting access to Western applications, China forced development of its own domestic systems. Today, the Chinese internet is its own ecosystem. Whereas the majority of the world uses a decidedly US based internet.
Rich just saying the quiet part out loud again.
Our Regime is jealous of the control that China has over their people and this is just another step towards making the US more like China.
Thanks to commenter Yancey Ward for his legal expertise insights. What is a bill of attainder and why is this bill which applies only to TikTok not a bill of attainder?
Since, two hits in a row. Well done.
What do you call millions of dead Jews? The Holocaust
What do you call 33,000 dead Gazans? A Genocide.
Tryng to understand Fox News Conservatives is simply impossible. China is running some Social media platform and using it to CONQUER THE USA. Y'know just like Putin was trying to CONQUER THE WORLD when he invaded Ukraine over a border dispute. No one has given specific details about how China is spying and corrupting our youth (lol) using Tik Tok.
If Congress wants to censor social media and ban foreign ownership, then lets get the Israelis out of the USA Tech Companies and media companies, and lets bring back a production code for Hollywood and TV. No attacking or targeting of Chritianity. NO attacking people on race, including whites. And mandating Executive suites that looks like America.
Or we could have one rule for everyone aka Freedom of Speech.
Achilles said...
I am just shocked that so many normally intelligent people are cheering the US Government as the government blocks US citizens access to outside sources of information.
I do not now, have not ever, and will not ever, have a problem with the US gov't blocking the CCP from having access to teh American people.
Banning TikTok would be like naming radio bands on which Nazi Germany or the USSR broadcast its propaganda to the US.
If you want to go looking for what teh CCP has to say, feel free.
But the CCP should have NO control over ANY information source in the US, other than their embassy
Douglas B. Levene: "I’m sorry, but I don’t see the problem."
Well, you're the clever fellow whose explicitly stated preferred methodology for selecting the republican nominee for President is for the candidate to be selected by party insiders in a smoke filled room with zero transparency for the party base......you know, the actual voters.
So it wasn't exactly a challenge to suss out your position on this issue ahead of time.
If I have missed any potential retractions to this statement you may have made, I will be happy to not raise this point again.
" Lindsey said...
Tiktok pushes virulent racism and antisemitism. There have been exposes in mainstream news sources where it was proven."
LMAO.
Yes, tee up Bidens Justice Department to claim the same thing about X and shut that down too. Mainstream news sources have 'proven' quite a lot about Truth Social too.
Enjoy the power you just handed the mainstream media!
Greg the Class Traitor said...
If you want to go looking for what teh CCP has to say, feel free.
But the CCP should have NO control over ANY information source in the US, other than their embassy
Good to know you are happy being a serf in the US Government kingdom. Make sure you ask nicely what information you think is OK for you to know. I am sure Joe Biden's puppet masters will keep all of the information you see clean and tidy. Wouldn't want you to see any "misinformation" from any unapproved sources.
I have no such wish to kneel.
I will also regard people that support relinquishing my freedom to the US government as enemies. If you want to limit what apps I can download and what information I can interact with because you are scared of "misinformation" or "propaganda" you are part of the problem.
TikTok is CCP spyware
It's not about TikTok. It's about control. This should be obvious.
Achilles said...
Greg the Class Traitor said...
Me: If you want to go looking for what teh CCP has to say, feel free.
But the CCP should have NO control over ANY information source in the US, other than their embassy
Achilles : Good to know you are happy being a serf in the US Government kingdom.
So it's your desire to be a serf in the CCP's kingdom?
Make sure you ask nicely what information you think is OK for you to know.
Bzzt, wrong.
The CCP uses it's control of TikTok to determine what you will see on TikTok
What you are fighting and arguing for is that the CCP has a RIGHT to do that in the US
And in that you are full of shit
I will also regard people that support relinquishing my freedom to the US government as enemies. If you want to limit what apps I can download and what information I can interact with because you are scared of "misinformation" or "propaganda" you are part of the problem.
If you wish to empower the CCP to decide what information Americans can see, YOU are the problem.
What is it with all these people who claim to be "America First", but who then demand that we all put Communist China or Putinist Russia First?
You must really hate America, to want to give power to our sworn enemies and competitors
Old and slow said...
It's not about TikTok. It's about control. This should be obvious.
It's about the CCP's control of US discussion.
What's really unclear to be is exactly how much of an America hater you have to be to want the CPP to have more power in the US
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