From "What to Know After Closing Arguments in Trump’s Civil Fraud Trial/A judge’s decision lies ahead, and appeals are highly likely. But this case could end Mr. Trump’s decades-long role in the New York real-estate business" (NYT).
The NYT writers find it "surprising" that Trump — who disrespects the Attorney General and the judge — respects lunchtime.
This part of the article makes me think it's clear what the judge is going to do:
The attorney general... is asking that the judge set a penalty of about $370 million — which she says is the amount the Trump business gained through the fraud — and that the former president and other defendants be barred from New York’s real estate industry and from managing any company in the state....
Although Justice Engoron appears poised to bring down the hammer on Mr. Trump, the former president’s sons might fare better.
When Ms. James sued Mr. Trump, she also named Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr, as defendants. But on Thursday, as the attorney general’s office argued that they played a role in creating some of Mr. Trump’s financial statements, the judge expressed doubt that Ms. James had proven her case against them. In particular, he seemed skeptical that the attorney general had sufficiently tied Donald Trump Jr. to wrongdoing.
“I haven’t seen it,” Justice Engoron said, offering the Trump sons some hope that they might escape relatively unscathed.
It seems that only Trump will be barred doing business in New York, and Eric and Don will be permitted to continue to manage the real estate. That would greatly soften the impact of this case.
Whatever this judge does will be reviewed on appeal, of course. I'm just anticipating that he will not boot the entire Trump family out of its New York business.
The article notes that the trial judge might not issue his decision until after Election Day. Then, Trump won't be getting any new material to process into his political rhetoric and you may expect many repetitions of that pre-lunch closing argument.
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88 comments:
Arthur Kirkland said…
"You're out of order! You're out of order! The whole trial is out of order! They're out of order!"
Let Trump continue to say what he said. He's right. Judge Engeron and the AG have been made to look like greedy fools in everywhere outside NYC.
The whole case is outrageous, and the idea that some Leftwing Judge who hates Trump should be able to destroy his business on the basis of nothing should be overturned and if not, Trump should do everything inside and outside the law to avoid paying anything.
We need to take a stand against Judicial tyranny. All this power we give to judges is based on the assumption they will deal out justice in neutral, objective manner. Not destroy their political enemies through "lawfare".
I’ve seen other reporting that the judge said he would issue a final ruling by the end of the month.
Is Trump being punished by NY State for negotiating a loan deal that all parties freely agreed to and where all agreed-to obligations were fulfilled?
Suppose I buy a new car in NY State and trade in my old car. Will I be committing fraud if I start the negotiation over the value of my trade-in too high?
The banks should have to repay the profits they made lending to Trump as well.
Let there be no mutually beneficial transactions! They're anti-progressive.
>Ann Althouse said...
This part of the article makes me think it's clear what the judge is going to do<
Who needs the article?! It has been clear for months what he is going to do, since he has virtually broadcasted it.
How wonderfully communist of him.
The article notes that the trial judge's decision may not arrive until after Election Day
That is surprising to me as I assumed the purpose of the trial was to provide a conviction to assist in future trials intended to prevent Trump from participating in the election and holding office. So, the party leaders had the propagandists signal the delay in decision to either hold the decision for maximum political impact later or they are concerned about their ability to control the narrative around convicting an innocent man of a crime that isn’t a crime…
I respect lunchtime over those frauds.
The entire leftwing democrat apparatus is a crime syndicate. A lie syndicate. & a grifting syndicate.
Shouldn’t sentencing follow victim impact statements? Oh, wait . . . . .
Trump may not be able to use the trial outcome but he doesn't need to. The ads and appeal write themselves "judge with zero real-estate or loan experience rules that a real-estate developer and a bank [that routinely issues loans using real-estate as collateral] don't know what they are doing and he knows better the value of those properties and as a result judge shut down developer's business".
Next up, Judge rules all planes must be grounded due to his determination that it is impossible for them to fly...
I hope the Judge lowers the boom on Trump, and NY becomes the next Detroit as businesses leave the marxist state that says only the government, not the market, can set the value of anything.
Something tells me that investors and business owners/operators who have any kind of contact with New York State are going to be taking to heart the result of this case (and, unless they're idiots, they've already taken note of the proceedings to date, and the cost in money, attention, reputation that this prosecutor and judge have already imposed).
The whole savage farce sends a clear message from the takers to the makers: stick 'em up. And, when we've finished looting you, you can go away.
The damage to business is bad enough. The damage to the settled expectations which the law is supposed to support; the damage to the very stuff of law-making; is far worse.
What would Tom Wolfe have done with this???
We need a strong president who can make the trains run on time, like Joe Biden, who killed the rail strike because he was worried about how it might increase inflation and hurt Democrats in the mid-terms. Not a wannabe strong man like Trump, who won't even override lunch time.
The judge declared Trump guilty before the case started and was giddy at the idea of punishing him. What Trump is guilty of is a crime without any victims and, if enforced equally, which it won't, would probably wipe out most of the large businesses in New York State, at least any who ever took a loan. The judge has also shown gross ignorance of the topic he is ruling upon, declaring that a declared property tax value is the going market rate for a property, which is so embarrassing wrong that it immediately provides a basis of appeal based on the judge's incompetence. This entire case was brought forth by a D.A. who ran on the platform of "get Trump."
It is not paranoia when they are really out to get you. This is an injustice. Trump is the victim.
So, if I understand the argument, if I enter into a contractual agreement on the basis of the value of my asset and I make up that value from my own mind and the other party agrees to that value and does not find reason to disagree with it (i.e. an independent assessment/valuation that disagrees)....
That's reason to be barred from doing business?
Is that actually the argument that has been seriously contemplated here?
That is surprising to me as I assumed the purpose of the trial was to provide a conviction to assist in future trials intended to prevent Trump from participating in the election and holding office.
------
It's a civil trial and he's already been found "guilty"; this is all about the penalties which will be imposed, if I'm not mistaken.
The problem is that they want to impose massive penalties which kill trumps businesses, but the minute they do that it will cause a major panic in the NYC real estate sector. They don't want that before the election.
He is the victim. WHY did Leticia go to the White House and whom did she meet with. Just like Fani...they are getting advice from the White House on how to go after the opponent of Joe Biden, and the media could give a shit.
When I was prosecuting, we looked into a few cases involving inconsistencies in loan application by developers and contractors. Banks were not the complainants. It became clear that the complaints were political. In most cases the inconsistencies resulted from variances in the requirements of lending institutions that were perfectly capable of doing their own due diligence.
There is no reason to think AG James would have a clue about the process or any interest in anything that might exonerate Trump.
He’s so loathsome that even when he’s right I want him to STFU and go away.
"judge with zero real-estate or loan experience rules that a real-estate developer and a bank [that routinely issues loans using real-estate as collateral] don't know what they are doing and he knows better the value of those properties and as a result judge shut down developer's business".
Seems to fly in the face of the business judgement rule, doesn't it? I'm not a lawyer so maybe there is a nuance I'm missing. But from the litigation I have been part of (as a defendant), the court seemed quite wary of questioning decisions about how to run the business and applied a stringent standard regarding questioning management and director decisions.
Red Queen.
Losing this case and having to pay $370 million will effectively put Trump and his family out of business and in bankruptcy. Most of Trump's assets are in New York real estate and he'd have to sell all of it.
Justice Engoron asked him to finish, and Mr. Trump obliged.
Trump has always obeyed judicial direction no matter how much he rails against it. That's the difference between the "dangerous" Trump and the good Democrats (who are more like Eddie Haskell).
See also Matthew 21 for The Parable of the Two Sons
NY democrats showing just how much THEY value the Rule of Law.
Fuck them and their shriveled souls.
Is there any developed country where this kind of persecution could happen? Any resemblance at all to this law, politically abused by this elected DA, then maneuvered to conviction by this partisan judge?
How hard can you squeeze a golden goose before it dies? Seems the case is attempting to put the squeeze on Trump, for political reasons, without running off every other business in NY that has different valuations on taxes versus loans. Which would be all of them.
Regardless of the outcome, after the trial Trump, Inc should close up shop in NY State lock, stock and both smoking barrels and leave NYC and the State. Loudly or quietly as is their won't. Not another penny of taxes or of jobs brought to that benighted place.
Heartless Aztec said...
Regardless of the outcome, after the trial Trump, Inc should close up shop in NY State lock, stock and both smoking barrels and leave NYC and the State. Loudly or quietly as is their won't. Not another penny of taxes or of jobs brought to that benighted place.
As should EVERY other rich business person that lives there and pays taxes. Get out whilst you can.
Rich said...
Losing this case and having to pay $370 million will effectively put Trump and his family out of business and in bankruptcy. Most of Trump's assets are in New York real estate and he'd have to sell all of it.
1/12/24, 9:20 AM
I'm sure you are thrilled that the Deep State and the corrupt Progressives finally got their man. The biggest danger to ALL of them because he was exposing them for the lying corrupt asses they all are...Well, congratulations asshole. Just goes to show who is okay with destroying America and it isn't Trump.
Like Sebastian says, it's "To hell with "golden egg omelettes! Today, we are eating goose!"
But it looks like the judge is backing off of that, probably after getting some notes on her performance from other billionaires in NYC, who are all sure to donate heavily to Democrats, but don't really want to take the chance of setting this precedent.
Ultimately, though, this is what identity politics leads to. It's one thing when you are talking about voting, worse when jury judgements become about tribalism, but when it infects the judiciary, it's the end of our republic that Ben Franklin warned us about.
I don't think that Miami and Houston real estate prices can't stand the boost that this will give them. Every business helmed by anyone who is not a die-hard Dem will be looking to exit NYC.
As to the "trial" - Trump is just laying the groundwork for the appeals now - so the more he causes the judge to look bad and political, the better for Trump.
I don't think that Miami and Houston real estate prices can't stand the boost that this will give them. Every business helmed by anyone who is not a die-hard Dem will be looking to exit NYC.
As to the "trial" - Trump is just laying the groundwork for the appeals now - so the more he causes the judge to look bad and political, the better for Trump.
I don't think that Miami and Houston real estate prices can't stand the boost that this will give them. Every business helmed by anyone who is not a die-hard Dem will be looking to exit NYC.
As to the "trial" - Trump is just laying the groundwork for the appeals now - so the more he causes the judge to look bad and political, the better for Trump.
Once more the government steals under cover of a false Law violation by their political rival. That’s why Magna Carta had to be forced on a tyrant in England. And as then the Trial by Jury remedy is what the English Barons demanded and is what is missing for Trump ( the father of Baron).
We need another 6-15-1215 Magna Carta to create Justice in America for a man born 731 years and 3 days later. There is nothing new under the sun.
Letitia James would never have gotten into law school without affirmative action. Like Fani Willis, she is so stupid she doesn't even know she's supposed to pretend to be unbiased.
I admit, this does not account for Engoron.
YOU do not have what it takes to be INK MASTER, pack your machines and leave!! More fraud,organization,University etc
Everyone knows that this case never would've been brought had Trump never run against Hillary and kept contributing to Democrats. So, as in most totalitarian states, the more arbitrary the enforcement of law, the clearer the message. "Nice little business you got here. Be a shame if we had to shut it down because your loan valuation exceeded your assessed value."
Is this a claim never before brought in NY?
Denied a jury, excessive fine imposed?
Sixth and Eighth Amendment violations as basis of appeal?
The objective here his to hurt Trump before the election, and besmirch the Supreme Court if they have to reverse on constitutional issues above.
Problem for Team Get-Trump: it's clear the public already sense what's going on.
Lots of good comments. This case is some kind of new low, and I can't believe NY State passed this law, thereby empowering these puffed up little dictators to push Trump around. Does NY State have no actual problems, like crime, schools, the justice system, migrants?
Unable to make a criminal case of fraud--what most people mean by "fraud"--they are somehow empowered to sue, without having to prove actual fraud or even an intention to commit fraud. By God this is something like a bill of attainder. I like the analogy to selling a used car in NY (Tommy Duncan), puffing the market value a bit. How many of us are criminals? Some economists have argued that it should be impossible to sell a used car: the seller will over-value, and the buyer will under-value. Meanwhile, a used car is indeed a set of problems waiting to happen. Judges are allowed to be entirely ignorant of such matters, and/or pretend to be ignorant in order to hurt Trump?
I suspect Trump will eventually win this case, but he will have to get it into federal court to do so. This was a kangeroo court.
Of course Donald Trump respects lunch. He sympathizes with the vulnerability of ham sandwiches to grand jury indictment.
@Tommy Duncan says:"Suppose I buy a new car in NY State and trade in my old car. Will I be committing fraud if I start the negotiation over the value of my trade-in too high?
As we can clearly see, that depends entirely upon whom you happen to offend, and how badly you offend them.
And @cassandra lite says: "He’s so loathsome that even when he’s right I want him to STFU and go away." Maybe consider self-awareness, the precursor to 'Principles'?
'The NYT writers find it "surprising" that Trump — who disrespects the Attorney General and the judge — respects lunchtime.'
Only a communist doesn't respect lunchtime.
TreeJoe @ 9:14: "So, if I understand the argument, if I enter into a contractual agreement on the basis of the value of my asset and I make up that value from my own mind and the other party agrees to that value and does not find reason to disagree with it (i.e. an independent assessment/valuation that disagrees)....
That's reason to be barred from doing business?"
TreeJoe, yeah. And don't forget that not only should you be banned, you should be forced to disgorge all the excess valuation of assets used to secure the loan, and all the money you made as a result of using the loan to build your business, and a further stunningly-large sum just to demonstrate how upset we are by what you did.
If that makes no sense, don't you worry. We'll do the thinking around here. Now pay up.
TreeJoe @ 9:14: "So, if I understand the argument, if I enter into a contractual agreement on the basis of the value of my asset and I make up that value from my own mind and the other party agrees to that value and does not find reason to disagree with it (i.e. an independent assessment/valuation that disagrees)....
That's reason to be barred from doing business?"
TreeJoe, yeah. And don't forget that not only should you be banned, you should be forced to disgorge all the excess valuation of assets used to secure the loan, and all the money you made as a result of using the loan to build your business, and a further stunningly-large sum just to demonstrate how upset we are by what you did.
If that makes no sense, don't you worry. We'll do the thinking around here. Now pay up.
Shes an enabler of the criminal hordes no one should respect her
Blogger Rich said...
Losing this case and having to pay $370 million will effectively put Trump and his family out of business and in bankruptcy. Most of Trump's assets are in New York real estate and he'd have to sell all of it.
"Rich" shows us all how much he/she/it respects the rule of law. Show trials are not the law. Stalin should have shown us that but "Rich" needs another lesson.
On his tax forms, Trump entered a value for one building of less than $20 million. On his bank forms, he entered a value for the same building, within just a few months of that, of over $500 million—30 times as much.
That's not "maybe an accident," and that's not "just what everyone does," and that's not "common practice," or other nonsense (I've seen posters here try to convince me of some of those very same pieces of nonsense). That's knowingly and intentionally lying. And everyone reading this knows it is. Nobody, but nobody, believes he was "just exaggerating a little bit" by 30 times as much.
That's not "innocent" or "common practice." It's outrageous, extremely rare fraud crimes. You all know Trump lied. And you all know it's illegal to do that.
The analogy that I would use for this case is speeding on the highway. Do I and a lot of other people drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit? Yes. However, Trump is the guy that got caught going 150mph and is whining to the cop that "everybody does it!"; "why didn't you pull that other guy over!"; "I have never been in an accident so what is the big deal"
In law school, I quickly figured out that the key words were metaphors that a nihilist could manipulate to achieve power and money.
I'm not a nihilist, but there are quite a few out there in positions of power.
The obvious solution is to raise the tax appraisal value of all real estate in the state of New York to match the most recent loan appraisal value of the property (adjusted for 2024 dollars.)
I have always been quite cynical about our ruling class, but this takes my opinion of them to new, previously unimaginable, lows. I really put nothing past this crowd anymore.
"That's reason to be barred from doing business?"
TreeJoe, yeah. And don't forget that not only should you be banned, you should be forced to disgorge all the excess valuation of assets used to secure the loan, and all the money you made as a result of using the loan to build your business, and a further stunningly-large sum just to demonstrate how upset we are by what you did.
And hey, we might also go after your kids.
Michael K
Althouse is a well repected insightful blog. You'd think that progressive would send commenters better prepared to argue. Unless the Richs, Dinky and Chucks are the best they have. Kinda sad really.
Someone should check and see if the judge ever had to put up collateral to secure a loan, and how much he overvalued that collateral.
Of course Donald Trump respects lunch. He sympathizes with the vulnerability of ham sandwiches to grand jury indictment.
Very funny! And apt.
- Krumhorn
Some commentors have suggested [either directly or indirectly] that Trump over-valued his properties and there in is the issue/crime. No so. Trump (or you or me) could value our property at $1,000,000,000 and use it for collateral for a loan. The lender (i.e. bank or other) has a fiduciary duty to get an independent evaluation of the property and determine the value to determine if their assessment of the value covers the loan in case of default. The point of the collateral is to cover any possible bank loss in case of default. If they decide to go forward with the loan then what is the crime?
Also assessed property tax is typically below market value (in good years) and in some states, significantly below market value.
Rich said...
"On his tax forms, Trump entered a value for one building of less than $20 million. On his bank forms, he entered a value for the same building, within just a few months of that, of over $500 million—30 times as much."
What specifically are the "tax forms" you are referring to? Are you referring to property tax assessments? You cannot possibly be that stupid. The IRS doesn't collect taxes based on value, only on gains. I'm honestly wondering what you are referring to here, because I don't understand what fraud you are talking about.
"Cast himself as the victim".
I can't figure out who was the victim in this case. The bank wasn't victimized. The State of New York wasn't victimized. That leaves Trump.
Rich @ 11:22: "...The analogy that I would use for this case is speeding on the highway. Do I and a lot of other people drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit? Yes. However, Trump is the guy that got caught going 150mph and is whining to the cop that "everybody does it!"; "why didn't you pull that other guy over!"; "I have never been in an accident so what is the big deal""
The analogy is incorrect. What you need is to be going 150 on the Indy track where there is no fixed speed limit and people drive as fast as their machines and skill allow. The speed cops don't go to Indy.
Thanks for playing.
wendybar said...
“He is the victim. WHY did Leticia go to the White House and whom did she meet with. Just like Fani...they are getting advice from the White House on how to go after the opponent of Joe Biden, and the media could give a shit.”
Leticia went there to swap cookie recipes. Just like Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch did on the tarmac.
"On his tax forms, Trump entered a value for one building of less than $20 million. On his bank forms, he entered a value for the same building, within just a few months of that, of over $500 million."
1) Tax assessment and market value are two different things. If a discrepancy between those is a crime, then we are all in trouble.
2) Does your state just take your word for it when they value your home? Maybe I should move there.
I live in a market that has a bit more freedom than NY. The value of my home in terms of my loan is different than the appraised value of the property for tax purposes. Neither of those values come close to how much I could get if I sold my home today, which would be a higher amount. As far as that goes, if I could use equity in my home above my original loan value to secure another home improvement loan. On my insurance, there is yet another value for my home.
This is not the least bit extraordinary, unless you are a commenter that can't afford a home.
Office space in the urban corpses is already at an all time vacancy. They are going to ban Trump from business in New York, read, New York City/Manhattan and then the market is going to be worse than it was when Trump revived Manhattan back around 1990.
Who is going to invest in NYC once they see that the state will just take everything from you?
One way or another, NYC will be whining like its the 1980s again. Only now, with the internet, remote work, AI, there will be now reason to revive it for at least 40 years.
Don't know much criminal law, don't know much Con, rico or civil rights law, but this old country lawyer knows a few things about real estate and its legal valuation, having been a bankruptcy trustee, counsel for both condemnors and condemnees and special master in eminent domain cases, having done real estate title examinations for county departments of transportation, and having litigated value in the confirmation of foreclosures, I feel somewhat justified in getting out of my rocking chair and pounding on the counsel table.
Assessed value does not equal fair market value. It doesn't even equal the fair market value that the tax appraisers ascribed to the property several years ago when the county last looked.
Assessed value is never used in eminent domain cases and a party who tried to introduce it as an indication of fmv would be laughed out of court. In court, value is always determined by dueling expert real estate appraisers giving their opinions as to the value of the property in question and giving their reasons for their opinions, supported by facts such as the size, condition, amenities of the property along with recent sales of comparable properties. (Always supported by facts. The factual basis for the opinion is the foundation without which the appraiser's opinion cannot be spoken.) The appraisers will of course be subjected to a thorough and sifting cross examination. (Many years ago Fulton County GA DOT liked to hire an appraiser for road condemnation work who had the reputation of hating trees. i.e. giving them little or no value.) Indeed,finding a legally acceptable fair market value for a twenty foot strip of land to widen a rural county road can be a complex process.
Valuing large urban commercial and hotel properties would be infinitely more involved. If Judge Engoron didn't hear and read extensive testimony and reports from highly skilled appraisers experienced in the New York commercial market, all subjected to cross examination, before he reached his decisions regarding the "correct" valuations of the Trump properties, but simply relied upon the county's appraiser value, the inescapable conclusion is that he is a fool and a knave.
And, of course, even brining this case points a gun at the very much struggling New York commercial real estate market. Hapless, hopeless fools!
Rich,
My house is currently appraised for taxes at @ $17,000.not a typo, seventeen thoudand
Since the first $15m of a principle residence is tax exempt, I pay property tax on $2m.
It's currently probably worth around $400m.
And your point about pedjts appraisal was?
What is your house appraised at? What would it sell for?
I pay about $1300/yr property tax. About 65%?
Don't ask me to Explain pr property taxes.
Or 11% sales tax on everything including water and food.
John Henry
He’s so loathsome that even when he’s right I want him to STFU and go away.
That says a lot more about you than it does Trump.
I am very interested to know the other billionaires who have been thus prosecuted. You know, because this is plainly not selective enforcement that amounts to a bill of attainder, but by the abuse of a prosecutor's power. It's impossible that this is a violation of equal protection, because this prosecutor can show how she combed through the tax documents of all of the billionaires in NYC, to protect their banks. I am confident of it. I am just as confident of it as I am in the soundness of our justice system.
You cannot possibly be that stupid.
Oh, yes he can.
Watch.
Misrepresenting the realizable value of an asset in order to minimize inheritance tax sounds like fraud to me.
Valuations are not “totally subjective” they are based on professional opinions which take into account contemporaneous and historical transactions together with extant conditions. You cannot just make it up! Why not just submit a value of zero on every asset and see what the IRS thinks of that?
Minimizing for tax purposes — yes, to an extent as long as it is within the range of what is reasonable, and you also have to certify that the information provided is honestly provided.
There is a range of legitimate views on property values, and then there are illegitimate views beyond that range. Trump seems to fallen into the latter. He cannot have legitimately thought that it was worth less than $20m when completing his tax returns, and then legitimately thought it was worth more than $500m a few months later. One, or probably both, of those statements were not honestly held legitimate views.
Your example of someone giving an honest opinion on value and it then being sold for a higher value is not comparable. You can be honestly mistaken and then a sale surprises everyone. But here there was no sale, there was no new party who was willing to pay more, there was only Trump who claimed it was worth $20m for tax purposes and $500m for collateral purposes.
The fact that the bank could have conducted additional DD to uncover the fraud does not change the intention of the person committing the fraud.
Of course Donald Trump respects lunch. He sympathizes with the vulnerability of ham sandwiches to grand jury indictment.
========
if grand jury eat ham sandwiches for lunch do proceeding become moot?
can they true bill empty platter?
Of course Donald Trump respects lunch. He sympathizes with the vulnerability of ham sandwiches to grand jury indictment.
========
if grand jury eat ham sandwiches for lunch do proceeding become moot?
can they true bill empty platter?
. Most of Trump's assets are in New York real estate and he'd have to sell all of it.
Rich must be Judges son. His business acumen is just as horrendous.
So selling your real estate holdings is going to bankrupt Trump?
Then there is the matter of Net worth. ~$2 Billion IF, and I cannot make the IF bigger, The Judge enforces the asked for Penalty (I would not be surprised if it was $1 hoping not to get appealed and the judge looks the fool for even hearing the case) an appeal will take years before appeals are exhasted
was worth less than $20m when completing his tax returns, and then legitimately thought it was worth? more than $500m a few months later
What are you babbling about?
Assets do not go on tax returns. Sales of real estate are listed to figure capital gains.
And the experts you mentioned to determine value, did testify. Real Estate Experts. Bank loan officers lending to real estate developers, experts. Donald J Trump would be considered a leading expert in NYC real estate values.
None of your comment references the facts of the case. Repeating. Bank experts and Real Estate experts, Both testified that Trump followed common practices for the industry.
Blogger Rich said...
"He cannot have legitimately thought that it was worth less than $20m when completing his tax returns"
In what instance would the IRS expect property valuations on a tax return? Please be specific.
You are wrong Rich. Banks testified they used 3rd party valuation. No fraud. They’d do it again they testified. Trump paid early. You are full of shit.
I’m sure the NY bosses are telling all the other business leaders not to worry or be afraid of getting in trouble for doing the same thing. They need to understand that this was just a government hit on trump because we only hate him. But the businesses know that the mob will need to make an example of someone else later, or the victims will begin to doubt their power to destroy.
Valuations are not “totally subjective” they are based on professional opinions which take into account contemporaneous and historical transactions together with extant conditions.
That's correct - based on professional opinions, in a negotiating environment. Each side presents its case and they meet in the middle. In this instance, the state of NY was entirely free to do its own valuation outside the courtroom and present a property tax bill to the Trump organization - did they? Or are they just using their laziness as a gotcha?
Also, it's seems likely to me that if a bank wants to lend an elite client money with no collateral at all, based on her record of payment and the importance of the relationship, they are at will to do so - within regulatory limits about how much unsecured debt they can carry. Is this a correct assumption? Because if it is, Trump could have sought, and perhaps received, loans using nothing but his own good payment record. Would that also have been fraudulent, given that he's self-evidently a bad, bad man?
I'm looking forward to the future headline:
PRESIDENT TRUMP TO NYC..."DROP DEAD"
I'm looking forward to the future headline:
PRESIDENT TRUMP TO NYC..."DROP DEAD"
After eight years of NYAT to Trump - DROP DEAD, seems fair.
Rich thinks (if that is the proper word for the origin of his babble) that bankruptcy would ruin Trump. Hey, fool, look up Trump's use of bankruptcy in Atlantic City with the casinos and how much money he MADE.
The Art of the Deal...DJT vs. Bankruptcy laws.
Trump won.
MarcusB. THEOLDMAN
This case will be laughed right out of existence on appeal.
William Roper : So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More : Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper : Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More : Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
This case will be laughed right out of existence on appeal.
Sure. But by then, it'll be back-page news. If even that.
In the meantime, we'll hear about another dozen, bullshit things thrown at Trump. Each will be blasted in the headlines.
It's not about the merits. Never has been.
Rich said...@11:22 and 4:44
When you don't know what you're talking about it's a good time to shut up and listen.
We went over this ad nauseum earlier. Search the archive and then comment.
I like the way Rusty sees the world and explains things in a way that makes perfect sense to a goat herder from the bronze age.
I used to think of Rich as one of the most intelligent and intellectually honest liberals on here, albeit as deluded as the rest of them.
No longer.
His ends-justify-the-means defense of this laughably flimsy, illegal, vindictive kangaroo-court persecution of Trump tells me he is as stupid and evil as all the rest of them.
You disgust me, sir. You and your ilk are my enemies, and I will be glad for the day when you and I no longer share a flag and a nation.
This Stalinist horse shit cannot stand. I decided today am writing the largest check I can afford to Trump's campaign and signing up as a door-knocker and poll-watcher for him. I haven't done that since I quit in disgust after Romney.
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