It was necessary to “change the entire equation and not just have a clash,” Khalil al-Hayya, a member of Hamas’s top leadership body, told The New York Times in Doha, Qatar. “We succeeded in putting the Palestinian issue back on the table, and now no one in the region is experiencing calm.”...
“I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us,” Taher El-Nounou, a Hamas media adviser, told The Times....
November 8, 2023
"Hamas leaders say they waged their Oct. 7 attack on Israel because they believed the Palestinian cause was slipping away, and that only violence could revive it."
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This supports one experienced observer's theory that this was Hamas version of the Tet Offensive. Do or die.
"...no one in the region is experiencing calm." Well, that's an overstatement. There are a number of people in the region now experiencing the ultimate calm, having been executed, burned alive, eviscerated, beheaded or simply blown to pieces, all thanks to the Hamas Tantrum Du Jour.
What an evil "rationalization" for this ongoing horror.
First, Fatah. Then, and now, Israelis, again, and again, and again. How utterly progressive... monotonic.
"I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent"
Or, as Wisconsin's own once put it, "This game's not over until we win."
"From the river to the sea" means No Israel.
Well the military leadership in Japan in the spring of 1941 was embroiled in a war that had been going on in China with mixed results; the US had embargoed the sale of scrap steel to Japan, and then FDR turned off the "oil spout" so to speak. The Japanese Navy had fuel reserves that were probably no more than 12 months or so --and it was time to put "Japan" on the table.
Hamas called it October 7. Japan called it Pearl Harbor. Stupid is as stupid does.
I doubt things will turn out as well for Hamas as they ultimately did for Japan. Japanese society had been struggling to remake itself since the Meiji Revolution. And notwithstanding the loss of WW II and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki Japan was in a much better place in the second half of the 20th century than it was in the first half.
Mission Accomplished.
Michael K's observation that this might be Hamas version of the Tet Offensive is interesting. The Tet offensive involved the deliberate sacrifice of the Viet Cong infrastructure in South Viet Nam. The North Vietnamese leadership was willing to destroy the Viet Cong to win the political battle (or at least to put the wind up Walter Cronkite's skirts).
And maybe the very senior Hamas leadership--sitting in safety elsewhere were willing to sacrifice their "grunts" and regimental level leadership in the hopes that the rest of the Arab world would join them. But if that doesn't happen--and Hamas on the ground in Gaza is wiped out--what then?
Such statements underscore why demanding Israel agree to a ceasefire makes no sense whatsoever. Hamas will not stop. They not only admit this they proclaim it repeatedly. Hamas delenda est.
How much do they think this advances the "Palestinian cause"? (Without getting into just what that is exactly and how well it lines up with known history.)
“I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us,” Taher El-Nounou, a Hamas media adviser, told The Times....
Earlier, it was reported a cease-fire was desired.
Whether by war or the slow cascade of time, when this is all over there's going to be beach front property for pennies on the dollar. Buy one get one free Palestine when you buy one Palestine of equal or greater value. For a limited time only!
You kind of have to wonder if they understand about nuclear weapons.
A permanent state of war with Israel means a lot of dead Palestinians. It doesn't seem so far that anyone who isn't an Iranian proxy is interested in getting in on that kind of suicide pact with Hamas and the other terrorist barbarians.
Israel's job is to make the strategy too expensive for them to continue.
Hamas should release the hostages, women, and children, then, for the first time since their incorporation, negotiate in good faith.
"Dammit! Everyone is paying too attention to that asshole Zelensky! We need to put some Israeli babies in the oven, rape some women, take some hostages, and get a lot of our own people killed to get back in the spotlight again. That comedian is hogging the oppressed limelight"
What a fucking strategy.
Would have been easier if Hamas started wearing Army Green sweatshirts and pants to every public event.
A subtext of the Abraham Accords that Trump got negotiated was places like Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. were tired of the Palestinian "problem". As we see, SA and UAE are not rallying to the call. Instead they are standing by as Israel deals with Hamas.
Those people who want to join them at the table are incentivizing more terrorism. People respond to incentives…
Israelis seem committed to destroying Hamas permanently.
Good.
This is like Japan initiating Kamikaze attacks when every rational analysis said they were outmatched and would lose. They indulged in magical thinking, that their will power and righteousness would overcome overwhelming material disadvantage. That only works if the other side gives up. Israel appears to be defying that expectation, or wishful thinking.
The Arab leaders, led by the Saudis, were selling out the Palestinians. Hence the attack.
But had Israel responded in a humane, decent manner to the attack Hamas would be in even worse shape then it was on October 5th.
Hamas wasn't gambling that their attack would start a war, and lead to a crisis. They were gambling Israel would over-react and kill so many innocent civilians in retaliation, that the Arab world would have to side with them. And that's what has happened. we're up to 10,000 dead arabs in gaza, vs. 14oo dead israelis.
Of course the USA has stupidily gave Bebe an blank check to do as many war crimes as he wants. So, we're losing friends all over the Muslim/Arab World. Good luck in invading Iran without arab support, neo-clowns!
In other words Hamas and all of the Hamas supporters, including elected officials and “elite” wan to kill all of the Jews.
What do the woke liberals on college campuses think of this strategy?
Lexington Green said...
"Israelis seem committed to destroying Hamas permanently.
Good."
What are you gonna say when they don't succeed?
They are honest and straightforward in describing their objective and the means of obtaining it. Root for them if you wish.
What Rick67 noted. This admission shows that a ceasefire is untenable with Hamas. Hamas has made it clear that Israel is in a fight of survival, so Israel must fight and, to survive, it must win.
Exactly what a low IQ moron would say.
Hamas should release the hostages, women, and children, too, then, for the first time since their incorporation, negotiate in good faith.
I see the Saudi, Kuwaiti, and Qatari ruling families quietly pointing Mossad in the right direction. Perhaps, even the King of Jordan may enter the fray.
Abraham Accords... one year until a new season of opportunity following the Spring.
"This is like Japan initiating Kamikaze attacks when every rational analysis said they were outmatched and would lose."
Well, except. The Japanese did not know about nuclear weapons. Once they found out, they wised up pretty damned quick.
I'm not saying the Israelis should, or would, use nukes to solve their Gaza problem. But;
From the River, to the Sea!
means radioactivity!
"“I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent …"
It's the only thing which gives their lives meaning. Pathetic and evil at the same time.
It is rather strange to think about the massive secrecy surrounding the Manhattan Project. The second World War might have ended considerably sooner if the Japanese had known a bit more about nuclear weapons. Of course, by then, it wasn't the Japs the Americans were worried about.
Back on 31 October, in a post entitled "Gaza and the Extremist’s Gambit", Tanner Greer asked, "Can strategic sense be found in “senseless” violence?" "Yes", he said, and pretty much nailed what the Times reports the two Hamas people as believing.
https://scholars-stage.org/gaza-and-the-extremists-gambit/
i figured, that hamas NEEDED israeli airstrikes, to get people's sympathy..
And, what BETTER way, to get israeli airstrikes; than raping and murdering and beheading little girls?
Of course in a SANE World raping and murdering and beheading little girls would make you Unsympathetic
BUT; we DON'T live in a SANE World
Job done then. I hope it fails.
Unconditional surrender, war crime tribunals and public executions after they are exposed as mere gang murderers, not nation builders or Islamic martyrs. Otherwise, these same folk will just keep doing what they've been doing since I was born, when Ike was in office.
Israel is a bull trying to deal with a pack of wild dogs.
They have to respond to potential attacks from all directions, and the Muzzie leadership and paymasters--whether Saudi/Sunni or Persian/Shia--have the ability to encourage or rein in different subfactions as opportunities or needs arise, while claiming to desire a just settlement. Just like the last several decades.
The Saudis and the Iranians would gladly sacrifice the sad sack Palis (ALL of them) to take Zion out--or at least down a few notches.
It would be nice if they just did some Tik Toks instead.
So the Hamas leadership (living in safe luxury in the Gulf States) and their bosses the Iranian mullahs courageously decided that now was the time to fight to the last Palestinian prole.
Those Palestinians sure choose some mighty fine leaders.
I think the Gazans are finding out that when you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes the hard way.
Why no sanctions against Quatar for harbouring terrorists?
Hard to imagine anyone not being aware of FAFO. Time to make the rubble bounce and finally end this. It isn’t going away any other way.
Lexington Green: "Israelis seem committed to destroying Hamas permanently."
Crack Emcee hardest hit.
"the Palestinian cause was slipping away"
Slipping away through peace and coexistence with Israel.
"only violence could revive it."
Of course Pali leaders won't rest, and can't afford to, until Israel has been destroyed and the Jews killed.
"Hamas should release the hostages, women, and children, then, for the first time since their incorporation, negotiate in good faith."
Someone needs to do a little studying on Islam. Jew-hatred is baked into the Muslim heart because the Jews rejected Big Mo way back when. Your study will show you that "way back when" is always today.
Robert Spencer is a great source,
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-history-of-jihad-robert-spencer/1128170822?ean=9781642932560
Be careful what you wish for, pal.
Hamas leaders are totally credible.
So once again it's Trump's fault, this time for the Abraham Accords.
As if I needed a reason to hate Hamas more.
A subtext of the Abraham Accords may be the Abraham Lincoln Accords. Love but conquer. We will forgive them when they lie prostrate. Sherman will preside.
I can remember when unleashing a death squad on a much reduced scale was frowned upon.
Ethnic extermination of Jews is the rallying cry for United Muslim rule. Those Jews had better beat them to it.
Israel’s response needs to be EPIC. And thoroughly Old Testament.
Unconditional surrender, war crime tribunals and public executions …
And take a lesson from how Pershing handled the Moro Rebellion — wrap the perpetrators in pig skins before you execute them..
Universities are the Soros DA’s assigned to prosecute Hamas.
“But had Israel responded in a humane, decent manner to the attack Hamas would be in even worse shape then it was on October 5th.“
According to game theory tit for tat is the winning strategy. The Bully will win, unless a bigger bully appears. India and China have equal populations, but India will loose and China will win. India is peaceful, philosophical, and moral. Your mom will tell you to fight the bully.
Clyde said...
"A permanent state of war with Israel means a lot of dead Palestinians. It doesn't seem so far that anyone who isn't an Iranian proxy is interested in getting in on that kind of suicide pact with Hamas and the other terrorist barbarians."
I think you'll find that when Hamas has been eliminated in the Gaza strip the remaining Palestinians will welcome the order that the Israelis brought. In don't think your average Palestinian was as committed to "From the River to The Sea......" as the Hamas leadership is. Besides they're tired of being held hostage to Hamas.
I think you'll find Jim, as the IDF makes more progress in eliminating Hamas as a threat, that Quater will politely ask the Hamas leaders to leave. The only connecting flights will be to TelAviv. Quatar gains more in its relationship with Israel than it does from Hamas. Hamas has spent their political capital. No one in the world, with any brains, believes that they want a peaceful solution to this. Unlike Vietnam where the Vietcong could drift away into the protected jungles of Laos and Cambodia Hamas has nowhere to run. All exits are blocked. With the Israelis winning they will have a difficult time blending into a population that does not want them there anyway.
But had Israel responded in a humane, decent manner to the attack Hamas would be in even worse shape then it was on October 5th.
I'd say they were about as humane and decent as one can expect a nation to be under those circumstances. They told Hamas exactly what they had to do in order to escape retribution. They warned the civilian population of Gaza to leave. They have continued to try to avoid civilian casualties, in spite of Hamas's use of the people it claims to represent as shields. They have protected evacuating Palestinian civilians from Hamas's violent efforts to keep them in the north.
If Israel really wanted the "genocide" that some claim they're committing, it would have taken a lot less effort than what they've been doing and continue to do. Is part of their undoubted restraint due to their desire to stay on the right side of the community of nations, to the extent they can (since there's a significant portion of that community that has never considered Israel on the right side of anything)? Probably. But that's why we moderns have norms: to provide motivation and a framework for resisting our worst impulses.
Why would anyone want to reward those who reject those norms categorically?
"'From the river to the sea' means No Israel."
No, it means no Palestinians, as they will be obliterated in a full-on war with Israel to the end. Hamas betrays their amoral recklessness and stupidity, to instigate an act of violent terrorism, knowing (and counting on) the response Israel did mount. I'm sure the doomed Palestinians were not canvassed by Hamas as to their preferences in re: ongoing subjugation (but remaining alive) or fairly quick extermination.
On the other hand, Netanyahu has long provided funding to Hamas, supposedly to "buy peace" and to prevent any forward progress to the establishment of a Palestinian state. Could there have been a long game at play, with the current events among the possible calculated outcomes, with Hamas acting as a witting or unwitting tool of Israel to bring about a catalyzing event--a mid-East Pearl Harbor--to justify a final war against the Palestinians? Or was he simply stupid beyond belief, to think that ongoing pay offs to a terrorist group could not possibly end in a catastrophe of some kind? Whatever the case, the unknowing and hapless Palestinians, with no power over their fates, are suffering the real world consequences, (as did the similarly unknowing and hapless Israeli citizens who were brutalized, kidnapped, and killed).
In don't think your average Palestinian was as committed to "From the River to The Sea......" as the Hamas leadership is. Besides they're tired of being held hostage to Hamas.
Man, I hope you're right.
I've heard polls (but I can't remember where - I really need to spend some time on this) that the "average Palestinian" doesn't support Hamas but does support "from the river to the sea." Yesterday my husband was listening to a journalist interviewing ordinary Palestinians about what they would like to see happen with Israel. The majority of the interviewees wanted zero Jews in the region; a few said they were willing to allow Jews to continue living in a Muslim Palestine. None, if I recall correctly what he told me, wanted a two-state solution.
War is many things.It is ugly. It is cruel. It is a departure from moral norms that forces us to question whether our postwar return to moral norms is real, or illusory. The survival imperative will never be calibrated or modulated.
War will be abolished right after we get rid of human nature.
The NYT -- or was it WaPo -- is infamous for publishing quotes that do not quote. Another day, another handmade tale.
[Did] Hamas act[...] as a witting or unwitting tool of Israel to bring about a catalyzing event--a mid-East Pearl Harbor--to justify a final war against the Palestinians?
or...
Or was [Netanyahu] simply stupid beyond belief, to think that ongoing pay offs to a terrorist group could not possibly end in a catastrophe of some kind?
God forbid on the first, and what an enormous gamble it would have been - doesn't pass the sniff test to me as there seem to me to be WAY more outcomes WAY more destructive - even totally destructive - to Israel. And if the second, he was no more stupid than Obama or any number of others in the West.
It remains my belief that because we don't even recognize the waters we swim in, we are being played by people who don't share Enlightenment values but know very well that we will try our best to stick to them. But because those people don't recognize the waters they swim in, they may have misread the (relative - but pretty significant, given their general approach to problem-solving) tolerance and forbearance they've experienced from the West, including Israel, as fecklessness.
The PLO got a seat at the table way back - late '70s, wasn't it? They were observers, but they were listened to. What have they and their ideological offspring done with their voice and influence? Oct. 7 is only the most recent example. And the Muslim-on-Muslim atrocities aren't even getting any airplay. The perpetrators of all this mayhem think and prioritize differently from even the least liberal Western nations.
"It remains my belief that because we don't even recognize the waters we swim in, we are being played by people who don't share Enlightenment values but know very well that we will try our best to stick to them."
I don't believe we "try our best to stick to" Enlightenment values. We are as brutal and savage as anyone.
We are as brutal and savage as anyone.
Probably this is a dead thread, but... yes, Robert Cook, we are more or less exactly the same human stock as Hamas. Yet we behave very differently under stress. Why? We are not "better people" by nature. But when was the last time such atrocities were committed by a group that espouses Enlightenment values?
An individual, sure. There are psychopaths everywhere. But in the Enlightenment world, war, even asymmetric war, is not carried out by the torture-murder of children.
Hamas is telling us who they are. Meanwhile, Israel is still trying to get civilians out of danger in Gaza. We may be, by nature, equally brutal, but we have established societal controls that prevent us from giving free reign to those impulses.
"We are as brutal and savage as anyone."
Badass brutal and savage?
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