December 31, 2022
".... the final nail in his coffin...."
A bunch of links about Trump's newly dumped tax forms — beginning with the screwiest one:
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121 comments:
They've got him this time.......the walls are closing in!
It's humorous that his enemies have been clamoring for these taxes to be released for the last 6 years and, now that that has happened, it will be forgotten in the next week or so.
Also, this says more about our inane tax system than anything else, but nothing will change.
there's never been a better reason to throw Trump in prison
isn't Trump a republican? isn't THAT a felony??
didn't Trump run AGAINST democrats? isn't THAT TREASON???
A coffin may serve as protection from walls closing in.
When do we get to know about Joe "The Big Guy"'s taxes?
Does secret money laundering from Ukraine and China show up on his spreadsheet?
It puts a nail in the "Trump is a brilliant business man" coffin. He's carrying forward the biggest loss I have ever seen.
I read that someone once said ...
Show me man and I will build/curate a prison/museum for him
He has armies of lawyers and accountants fill out his taxes.
They use laws passed by Congress, or 'loopholes' as democrats call them, to pay as little in taxes as possible.
It's the American way.
Now let's see the taxes of every prominent Democrat starting with the first family and working down.
Fuck these fascist clowns.
I dare DC to open that Pandora's box and prosecute Trump based on those rax returns. Come on, do it. See what happens.
Badges? We don’t need no stinking badges.
If Trump had committed crimes, the long, ongoing IRS review would have so noted. This was an exercise in innuendo, cherry picking and noting Trump business partners.
Hell these headlines could have been, and probably were, written months ago.
Nancy's tax returns might prove interesting.... hate to go down that path, but without pain - for the Democrats - there will be no gain.
A billionaire who can afford to hire an army of accountants and tax attorneys is going to somehow openly cheat on his taxes. Sure thing.
Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
often note to the "Walls are closing in" relatives that Trump does not sit down April 14 with a copy of TurboTax for Business to do his taxes.
Why? Because he's smart. Only teams can cover all the ins and outs of the tax codes.
"He's carrying forward the biggest loss I have ever seen."
Are you an expert in the taxation of real estate investment? How many complex tax returns dealing with real estate investment have you, in fact, "seen"? Have you ever studied any? Or do you just read inflammatory news articles designed to inspire more contempt for a man already held in extreme contempt?
Hopefully, Trump uses this to his advantage in '24. They'll try to attack him over this, and he can look at the cameras and say, "you're damn right I took advantage of every legal loophole and exemption available to me. The real issue is that the political class have spent decades building this convoluted mess of a tax code all for the benefit of their rich donors. Meanwhile, the IRS will go after you for failing to declare $600 you earned selling junk on eBay!"
@Althouse, very good to see your skepticism at 11:29. I’d appreciate reading much more of that skepticism in 2023.
When we talk about metaphorical nails in coffins, this event should more appropriately be considered as another nail in the coffin of public confidence in US institutions. Unfortunately, there is an asymmetry between building and destroying public confidence. It is far easier to destroy public confidence than it is to build it.
See the Gallup poll linked below.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-institutions-down-average-new-low.aspx
There is a reason why smart real estate developers hire & rely on really really good CPA’s. See Sammy's comment, here.
https://patterico.com/2022/12/30/weekend-open-thread-158/#comment-2671402
And, finally, recall Judge Learned Hand's observation:
“Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant.
Commissioner v. Newman, 159 F2d 848 (1947).
https://patterico.com/2022/12/30/weekend-open-thread-158/#comment-2671402
Trump hatred is so bizarre. Great example of the power of coordinated propaganda.
Interesting if exposing tax returns, which I thought were only available to IRS or perhaps courts, becomes a thing. Would love to see the returns of other members os congress, on both sides of the aisle.
but sure, lets prosecute him, or anyone we don't like, based on years of propaganda, lies, and ignorance.
Stalin would approve the effort, but want it ramped up a lot.
"..it's certainly cheerful to have The Daily Beast come along and declare — who needs crimes? — that there's never been a better reason to throw Trump in prison."
@Althouse's implication?: There's never been a better reason --> there's never been any reason to throw Trump in prison.
Psychological projection is strong at The Daily Beast.
Althouse (to Bob R): "Are you an expert in the taxation of real estate investment? How many complex tax returns dealing with real estate investment have you, in fact, "seen"? Have you ever studied any? Or do you just read inflammatory news articles designed to inspire more contempt for a man already held in extreme contempt?"
And that's the last we will see or hear of "Bob R".
David Cay Johnston is a fucking idiot.
“For my tax evasion, I should be punished. For my tax avoidance, I should be commended. The tragedy of life today is that so few people know that the free bridge even exists."
-Louis D Brandeis.
Memeorandum the hive mind in function begire twitter
Biden and the Dems have handed out billions in federal income tax credits for expensive and unreliable wind turbines and solar panels. And they want to give away another $380 billion in the future. And the solar industry is reliant on Chinese slaves.
That’s the scandal.
Interesting if exposing tax returns, which I thought were only available to IRS or perhaps courts, becomes a thing. Would love to see the returns of other members os congress, on both sides of the aisle.
It's not the members of Congress that they want to use this against. It's you and me.
Bob stands up at a school board meeting and complains about allowing "transwomen" into the girls' bathroom. Soon after, his tax information gets leaked, showing that he pays child support for a kid he had with a mistress ten years ago.
Bill and Sue organize opposition to an eminent domain attempt to build a shopping center. Then it comes out that, when Bill was out of work, Sue drove six hours on the weekends to dance topless at a bar three counties away in order to keep from losing their house.
Joe embarrasses a political candidate by asking a tough question during a public meet-and-greet, and suddenly it's leaked that his father-in-law has been keeping his business afloat for the past six months.
Let me see if I understand how the game is played.
Door #1: trample on the promise of taxpayer privacy, guarantee brutal payback against your own side as soon as the political winds shift, all to reveal —shocker!— no crime but a completely predictable complex mess. Door #2: honor the promise of privacy, slow (a little; maybe) the erosion of public respect for your side, and move on to something a little less insubstantial that might actually help you destroy Orange Man.
Which door? #1! Of course!
This time the walls are really closing in. They were just slow before.
The tax flap is going to fizzle just like the super-secret docs at Mar-a-lago. Watch.
If Trump died tomorrow, one of the grand juries looking into stuff, will indict him of flight from justice... or something.
'And that's the last we will see or hear of "Bob R".'
She's small, but she's feisty : )
Inflammatory comment about serial bankruptcy filer from AA, clickbait for her faithful Trumpist followers.
I'm glad the J6 committee released Trump's taxes.
Don't get me wrong. They perpetrated a fraud on the Supreme Court to obtain them, and there is absolutely no justification for making them public.
But everybody knew that anything in them that could be spun to make Trump look bad was going to come out. So releasing them was better than the usual practice of leaking details to select members of the press to be presented out-of-context, all while the media debated which Trump ally had actually leaked them.
The Washington Post could not even muster any outrage in its headline beyond "Trump Minimizes Taxes."
Blogger Bob R said...It puts a nail in the "Trump is a brilliant business man" coffin. He's carrying forward the biggest loss I have ever seen.
In real estate, you get depreciation deductions (not as large as in past) that reduce the income or create a loss in addition to the operating revenue less the operating expenses incurred. Presuming the real estate appreciates over time, the owner has a gain for the amount of the net sales proceeds over the depreciated value. Please don't sound so naive (or stupid).
Don't paid CPAs assume liability for mistakes in tax returns? Asking for a friend.
Don't paid CPAs assume liability for mistakes in tax returns? Asking for a friend.
How many final nails does Trump have in his coffin now?
Oh give me a break. Releasing the tax returns of Trump--just about four days before the Dim majority on the Ways and Means Committee loses the ability to do that--is simply cat nip for the committed--or rubbish for the rubes.
Tax returns for the wealthy--or for say Fortune 500 corporations--are subject to a lot of interpretation--and ongoing discussions between the IRS agents and the auditors/accountants.
In the 80s I worked in the Legal Department of a Fortune 50 energy company. IRS agents lived onsite at company HQ. And it usually took anywhere from five to ten years after the closing of the company's tax year for a particular tax year to finally close.
Putting all of Trump's tax returns before say Sharon in Sioux City, and expecting her to understand and act on them is like putting a copy of Mad Magazine before Mike in Milwaukee and saying that, after Mike reads the Mad Magazine issue, he's qualified to do neurosurgery.
BRACE YOURSELVES:
A wave of economically illiterate half-wits who can barely spell 'net operating loss carry forwards" and "depreciation of real property" are coming!
Yeah, the Left/liberals have made it quite clear they are no longer bound by the law or anything else when they dislike someone enough.
You even had Bob Wright chortling over Steve Bannon going to jail over the J6 testimony. THe fact that it was totally unreasonable, was irrelvant to Bob. Bannon was Pro-Trump and deserved to be in prison. And have his life destroyed.
No doubt if Trump gets railroaded by the DoJ on completely bogus charges and then sentenced to 20 years in prison over the equivient parking violation, the Liberal/left will celebrate.
Readering: "Inflammatory comment about serial bankruptcy filer from AA, clickbait for her faithful Trumpist followers."
LOL
What percent of Trump controlled business entities over the last 40 years have declared bankruptcy?
Keep in mind on the day of Trump's inauguration his latest tax filings at that time listed over 540 separate business entities under his control.
Feel free to also answer based on weighted value of total assets controlled vs raw number of entities if that makes you feel better.
LOL
Maybe instead of embarrassing yourself further on this subject you might prefer embarrassing yourself re: Twitter status and viability?
Donald Trump knowingly committed dozens of brazen tax frauds during the six years when he ran for office and was President . . . [writes David Cay Johnston].
One technique he used at least 26 times between 2015 and 2020 was as simple as it was flagrant. Trump filed sole proprietor reports, known as Schedule C, that showed huge business expenses despite having zero revenue. That created losses which Trump used to offset his income from work and investments, thus lowering his income taxes. Additional Schedule Cs had expenses exactly equal to revenues while only a few showed profits.
Trump knew this was unlawful because he lost two trials over his 1984 income taxes in which he did the exact same thing . . . . Both judges, in scathing opinions, ruled that Trump committed civil tax fraud.
That Trump persisted in using the same fraudulent technique in six years of recent tax returns is powerful evidence of . . . criminal intent. This device is not Trump’s most lucrative tax cheating technique, but it is the easiest for jurors to understand should Trump be indicted on tax charges.
The Congressional report raises questions about numerous other tax deductions Trump took, including charitable deductions that may be bogus or overstated; treating personal expenses as business expenses; loans to his three older children that may be to escape gift taxes; and reporting almost $5 million of capital contributions as tax-deductible business expenses.
Suspected tax fraud was never investigated and required tax audits were never performed, thanks to SecTreas Steven Mnuchin's hand on the scale.
Bob R: I don't know about "brilliant" but he was good enough to get elected President against all the odds.
Readering and gadfly. Should be a vaudville comedy team.
Neither one of you would be able to understand Trumps tax return if your lives depended on it.
"Suspected tax fraud was never investigated...."
(Christ in a sidecar) It was never investigated because there was no fraud. That's why your accountants should always be CPAs. A good CPA knows more about the tax laws than the IRS. Avoiding taxes is not tax fraud.
My wish for you two in the new year is that you both get audited.
I knew gadfly would eventually show up.
Ann's comment/reply to "Bob R" was welcome. I wonder how many others in the hospitality industry would show massive losses from the Covid fiasco? Not many were as big operations as the Trump properties. Still, hundreds of businesses closed their doors as a result of Fauci and Birx's massive malpractice. My daughter in law was valuable enough to her convention and meeting scheduling business to be kept on during the devastation caused by Birx and Fauci. She works from home and that helped.
Mel gets it right "I really don't care, do you? The guy runs a fraudulent trump organization enterprise documented by the court, tells us what we don't know please :)
Impeachment 4.0. In order to avoid appearance of diversity (i.e. color judgment, class-based bigotry), and other special and peculiar interests, and to be equitable and inclusive, there should be open discovery of both parties, all parties inside and managing this prosecutorial and handmade loop. Let loose the Ouroboros! and don't spare the babies.
One technique he used at least 26 times between 2015 and 2020 was as simple as it was flagrant. Trump filed sole proprietor reports, known as Schedule C, that showed huge business expenses despite having zero revenue. That created losses which Trump used to offset his income from work and investments, thus lowering his income taxes. Additional Schedule Cs had expenses exactly equal to revenues while only a few showed profits.
Single entity LLCs file Schedule C. It is not an illegal scheme. Entities are allowed offset revenue with expenses from other operations- like work and investments. Nothing illegal there. The ‘exactly equal’ happens because you’re only allowed to use expenses to offset revenue. Nothing surprising there. I don’t even have to ask the CPA/MST MFO expert sitting on the couch next to me…
I mean Liz Warren has committee power over IRS and she repeatedly confirms she has no effing idea what a tax loss carryforward is or the significance of a reporting period. Why do we allow these dolts to continue to invent this shit?
Trump's coffin must look a lot like the coffin of a Navy Seal, what with all the nails.
so, just to be clear...
I about four days, it will go back to being illegal to release private tax returns?
And once again Gadfly quotes a Soros funded rag that nobody ever heard of.
Your act is getting old, Gadfly.
Before I retired, I used to attend journalism organizations' conventions, and at one such David Cay Johnston was a featured speaker. He spoke about how his extensive knowledge of financial accounting laws and regulations made it possible to slant reporting in ways that weren't apparent to far-less-knowledgeable readers. I assumed he was bragging, but perhaps he was merely being informative.
Before I retired, I used to attend journalism organizations' conventions, and at one such David Cay Johnston was a featured speaker. He spoke about how his extensive knowledge of financial accounting laws and regulations made it possible to slant reporting in ways that weren't apparent to far-less-knowledgeable readers. I assumed he was bragging, but perhaps he was merely being informative.
…I compelled the CPA/MST at the other end of the couch to look- ‘this is not that bad’ is all she came up with so far. Never heard of Mazars…wondering why she never gets ‘shady’ in front of her name in a headline like Mazar, “…because all my shady stuff is done by Democrats!”
Six years chasing these forms, making all kinds of Mueller Report type wild assertions, and the best they can do is prove that unlike any of his predecessors Trump LOST NET WORTH AND INCOME “serving” the People. Way to go idiots!
Come on gadfly, now that you have Trump's tax return, use it. Show us how to do it.
Question for Open AI.
Say in the past 6 years, How many Trump stories used the phrase “walls closing in”?
Bob R comes out swinging vacantly. Professor counters with a raging stacatto bitchslap. Out comes his mouthpiece. He's circling Iceland somewhere now.
Readering comes out with a flacid retort showing he's hopelessly outclassed. Count him out.
Gadfly races outta the dressing room, over the top rope with his latest journolist talking points, hoping to pick up some spare change for his effort. Whatta stunning victory for the sage of Wiconsin's legal square circle.
During Trump's presidency, he turned over control of his business (I believe to his son in law?) to avoid conflict of interest. He declined to take a salary (took $1 as I understand it). His net worth declined. Sure sounds criminal to me.
He gets $ from lots of countries because he has properties all over the world. Duh.
In distinct contrast, Pelosi became rich on a middle class salary. Let's see HER tax returns. Or Hunter's.
Careful what you wish for, leftists.
You just might get it.
Okay supreme court, you allowed his tax returns to be released so that they could be "studied" to help monitor US presidents in the future, so you said.
But in reality ( which you f****** knew already ) is that they would be released for political purposes immediately.
You want to lose any credibility you still have, keep it up. You already have US Marshals protecting you from democrats, now you want to enrage the other side as well.
I apologize for making a poorly informed and naive comment. I am influenced by statements like the following:
"The report also showed that Trump had carried forward $105 million in net operating losses on his 2015 return, $73 million in 2016, $45 million in 2017 and $23 million in 2018 to reduce his tax liability."
I've been aware of only a few such loss caryovers, all have an order of magnitude or two smaller. If I ever need to hear from people who encounter 100 million dollar real estate losses on a regular basis, I'll know where to look.
Trump's candidacy ensures that many will be mining his tax returns, on top of the existing lawsuits and investigations. Next 6 months should be interesting, especially for GOP rivals for the nomination.
Final “nail” in Trump’s coffin, or his hands and his feet?
Tag: Trump is like Jesus.
"Who needs crimes?" Who even needs reasons? Reasons are so white supremacist or something. They want what they want. Full stop.
The Hopeless gadfly: "Suspected tax fraud was never investigated and required tax audits were never performed, thanks to SecTreas Steven Mnuchin's hand on the scale."
LOL
Just when you think the dumb lefties can't possibly get any dumber, along comes gadfly to disabuse you of that notion.
Let me guess, the Mnuchin "hand on the scale" "proof" is in some dossier somewhere, right?
It appears our Hopeless gadfly is desperate to supplant Inga and readering as Chief Leftist Mindreader of Althouse blog.
Suspected tax fraud was never investigated and required tax audits were never performed, thanks to SecTreas Steven Mnuchin's hand on the scale."
First you make an accusation without any foundation. Second the very same IRS that hasn't found errors in his hundreds of returns over the years somehow turned a blind eye. Sure. The same federal and NY state bureaucracy that has been waging war against Trump even before he was elected turned a blind eye. Now let's do Obama, Biden and the top Democrats in Congress.
All this and the IRS never figured out what the dastardly villain was up to! Good thing the Daily Beast is on the case!
'Suspected tax fraud was never investigated and required tax audits were never performed, thanks to SecTreas Steven Mnuchin's hand on the scale.'
And Epstein traffic'd kids to nobody...what's your point?
Funniest part in the 2020 return is where he lists $8 mil in state and local taxes but is limited to 10,000 by Paul Ryan's tax bill.
Or maybe poignant is the word. Je ne sais quoi.
How do you file a Schedule C 26 times between 2015 and 2020? Always knew there was a lot I did not know about tax law. I only file 1 Schedule C a year. Must have been a lot of amended returns?
Then DCJ says he filed "65 Schedule Cs while a candidate." ??? Maybe he explains this inconsistency later in the article, as I didn't read it til the end. It all sounds very damming, but somehow I don't think I would rely on DCJ for tax advice or recommendations for tax policy.
"That Trump persisted in using the same fraudulent technique in six years of recent tax returns is powerful evidence of . . . criminal intent. This device is not Trump’s most lucrative tax cheating technique, but it is the easiest for jurors to understand should Trump be indicted on tax charges."
In the highly unlikely event that the foregoing describes in any way what is reflected in the tax returns, it would seem primarily to be evidence that: a) Trump and his accountants are the second dumbest group of people to ever exist, and b) the IRS is the dumbest.
Wait, what?
I thought the big strategy was to coddle and promote such a hopeless candidate to run to the inevitable slaughter.
Well, maybe they're trying to get some dirt to balance out the potential exposuure of slime from Biden Inc selling access and skimming via a drug/porn addict.
Can't help noticing that NYT had an article yesterday and then nothing today, Did I say nothing? Yes. A fish has more legs than this story.
Can't help noticing that NYT had an article yesterday and then nothing today, Did I say nothing? Yes. A fish has more legs than this story.
I can’t recall the details/specifics, but I had the impression at one point that a huge portion of Trump’s net operating loss (NOL) carryover was attributable to a (since closed) loophole. It went something like this: The taxpayer had losses that were generated by depreciation deductions on highly leveraged real estate in an S corporation (why Trump would have been using an S corp rather than a limited partnership is a piece I can’t explain). The losses got bottled up in the S corp because of a rule limiting loss passthroughs to the stock basis. Then, when the mortgage didn’t get paid, there was a corresponding amount of cancellation of debt (COD) income that didn’t get taxed because of the “insolvency exception.” The untaxed income nevertheless produced a basis step up that allowed the losses to get passed through to the taxpayer.
So the taxpayer got the benefit of the losses created by the depreciation deductions, which were artificial and did not correspond with the economics, without recognizing the offsetting COD income. There was a 2001 Supreme Court decision on that issue, Gitlitz, written by the he-who-shall-not-be-named Clarence Thomas, saying, yup, that’s the way the statutes Congress enacted work. If you don’t like it, complain to them. The COD/basis rules were subsequently changed by legislation, but the change didn't affect prior transactions like Trump's.
The transactions giving rise to the NOL carryforward would have been way before the years involved in the Trump return release. All you would see in those returns would be the NOL carryforward, with no indication of where it came from.
--gpm
"Trump's candidacy ensures that many will be mining his tax returns, on top of the existing lawsuits and investigations. Next 6 months should be interesting, especially for GOP rivals for the nomination."
To quote the worlds greatest shit bag, Harry Reid, "It worked, didn't it?."
But it won't work. Why, because after being investigated for 7 years at a cost approaching $100mm, no one has found a crime yet. Trump is without a doubt the most innocent man in the world.
This squeeze play by democrats, on the Constitution, is open contempt for the People. The IRS/House nexus has eliminated the right against self incrimination. IRS says "You must confess but we will keep it secret." House Says "We will expose your confession regardless of our promise." ADAB, All Democrats Are Bastards.
"Trump's candidacy ensures that many will be mining his tax returns, on top of the existing lawsuits and investigations. Next 6 months should be interesting, especially for GOP rivals for the nomination."
To quote the worlds greatest shit bag, Harry Reid, "It worked, didn't it?."
But it won't work. Why, because after being investigated for 7 years at a cost approaching $100mm, no one has found a crime yet. Trump is without a doubt the most innocent man in the world.
This squeeze play by democrats, on the Constitution, is open contempt for the People. The IRS/House nexus has eliminated the right against self incrimination. IRS says "You must confess but we will keep it secret." House Says "We will expose your confession regardless of our promise." ADAB, All Democrats Are Bastards.
"How do you file a Schedule C 26 times between 2015 and 2020?"
You're supposed to file one for each business. Some may be in foreign countries so keeping them separate makes some sense.
I thought it was generally known that Trump lost money every year he was President. When you are losing money, you are not paying taxes. That is the way it works. I am less concerned with a President who lost money while President than I am in how the hell members of congress are making millions per year on a 180K a year salary. First thing the Republican congress needs to do is release Bidens tax returns. THOSE I want to see. WHERE is the money coming from?
Trump literally IS the most innocent and transparent politician in my lifetime.
Rob R. You assert you have never seen such ginormous loss carry forwards. Can you give a couple examples of smaller loss carry forwards you have observed? Any? One?
Rob R. You assert you have never seen such ginormous loss carry forwards. Can you give a couple examples of smaller loss carry forwards you have observed? Any? One?
ThAnks for the info Rehajm.
Gosh, the wall are STILL closing in on Trump.
6 years and counting, baby.
Do the likes of Schiff and Pelosi think this is making the average American more likely to trust government, or less?
After this stunt, I'm of the opinion that a gallows a hundred yards in length would not be sufficient to accommodate every Inspector Javert who merits public hanging.
Haven’t seen it mentioned so do a search on:
donald rumsfeld letter to irs
I appreciate his sentiments.
They use laws passed by Congress, or 'loopholes' as democrats call them, to pay as little in taxes as possible.
I have a front row seat in Schizoids theater. They always want to review the past looking for the red herring that will validate the voices.
Donald Trump is the cleanest man in politics.
Donald. Trump.
Carol said...
"Funniest part in the 2020 return is where he lists $8 mil in state and local taxes but is limited to 10,000 by Paul Ryan's tax bill.
Or maybe poignant is the word. Je ne sais quoi."
There's a reason envy is a sin.
There will be no justice from a system still covering up for Epstein’s clients.
Imagine that a businessman, hounded by the government and demonized in the press at the behest of the opposing political party, lost money. Nancy Pelosi somehow managed to “earn” over 100 million dollars just investing what she could eke out in savings on her low six figure salary. Joe Biden’s crack head son is a better businessman than Trump!
Althouse is just mad that gloating tools above create sympathy for Trump.
I am as puzzled as Bob R. at the vitriol aided at him regarding what I consider a fairly inocuous comment about the loss carried forward. The numbers cited seem large enough to be considered significant. Why are Ann and her minions demanding specific examples to back up his contention that these are large? Why is Bob's comment raising hackles for them?
I think this harassment of Trump is in part meant to discourage any other patriotic business people from seeking high office. I don’t know what was done to Ross Pirot ,but it worked for many election cycles.
And soon Biden's tax returns, IN DETAIL, will show of he mentioned his 10% 'Big Daddy' fees over the years... all thanks to Hunter's laptop!
If not.. tax evasion.
Gee, Liz Cheney's net worth increased from $6M to to $36 in six years. Joe Biden's increased from $325K to however many millions..
Trump is the most investigated human in history and they found NOTHING.
It is humorous to watch the 'elite class' fail like usual.
A CPA I met commented the code in his career went from one book to an entire shelf. His cpa practice around 5 CPA’s.
A certified tax attorney I met explained how there are lots of grey area in the tax code, and how interpretations often come down to court cases. There is a tax court system.
A real estate investor explained how you wanted to use a tax attorney, due to attorney client privilege.
From a real estate meeting I went to, a lot of swaps taxability come down to intent.
And you'll continue to vote for Democrats Ann . Right up to the point that they decide to come for you.
Readering said...
"Trump's candidacy ensures that many will be mining his tax returns, on top of the existing lawsuits and investigations. Next 6 months should be interesting, especially for GOP rivals for the nomination."
How about you post your tax returns in the public square. Let us all get a look under your wife's dress.
You're absolute shit at this 'moral scold' business.
Bob R said..."It puts a nail in the "Trump is a brilliant business man" coffin. He's carrying forward the biggest loss I have ever seen."
I'd file this statement in the folder "tell me you don't understand the real estate business, tax accounting, and context without saying you don't understand the real estate business, tax accounting, and context"
I have no doubt that you don't know of many cases with $100 loss carryforwards. That would be a statement I'd take into account if you were conversant with the commercial real estate field (and tax accounting). I am.
Between depreciation and high leverage from debt financing, taxable income from real estate can vary widely (note that I'm saying "taxable income, and not "profits", because the two are not synonymous). So it's not uncommon to see VERY large operating losses in the real estate field.
I teach valuation and financial analysis, so I'm a "numbers guy" (even have a PhD in the topic), and I've been teaching this stuff to a quarter century.
One of the first things I hammer into my students is that a number by itself is pretty much meaningless - it always has to be put in context. As an example, a $100 million loss on a $300 million enterprise is probably significant. That same loss for a $50 Billion one is a rounding error. Taken to extreme, consider you losing $50,000 at a craps table vs. Elon Musk losing ten times that.
A quick back of the envelope calculation makes me estimate that Trump Tower, Trump World Tower, AXA Financial Center, 40 Wall Street, The Trump Internation Hotels in NYC and Chicago, his E 57th St property, Mar-a-Lago, and his 7 Springs interests are likely worth at least 4-5 Billion, and that says nothing of his joint ventures.
So, is a $100 million loss on a $4 billion base a lot? I'm not sure. But it alt east puts it in context.
I've been aware of only a few such loss caryovers, all have an order of magnitude or two smaller.
Bob R, you keep stepping on the same rake. The folks around here are smart with a wide range of experience in varied fields. That means you're being intentionally obtuse, is very easy to spot.
Tell us, in you vast experience, what was the volume of real estate transactions that generated the carryover loss? Isn't it likely Trump does a magnitude or two higher volumes you have encountered.
Or do the people you deal with have private jets, helicopters, and golf resorts scattered across the US and foreign lands?
Couple of key points that people are missing, in all of this.
Observation number one: This is going to be remembered as an important moment in the development of an actual opposition to the DemoRepub Oligarchy. The handwriting is on the wall, for those smart enough to see it: If they can do this to Trump, they can do it to anyone. RINO collaborators with the criminal claque that have taken over governance of these United States will lose the consent of those they represent, and will also lose their BS jobs as the controlled opposition.
Observation number two: Anyone with the sense to see the future is going to start setting up and working with an actually effective opposition party/movement.
Observation number three: The feckless DemoRepub operatives who came up with this ploy are going to find that a tool, once used by them, can and will be used against them. They've opened up the dam, here: Wait until you hear and see what's in Pelosi's and Biden's historic tax records. A forensic accountant would have years of work reviewing all the BS they came up with to cover their bribes, let alone all their little fiddles with the market that should have never been legal.
Consequence is coming, darlings. You won't like them.
Blogger Bob R said...
It puts a nail in the "Trump is a brilliant business man" coffin. He's carrying forward the biggest loss I have ever seen.
12/31/22, 11:13 AM
You must not get around much?
As a former Banker, it's very typical for a 'Person' or 'Family' whose 'Net Worth' is heavily invested in 'Real Estate' to show annual losses on their annual tax returns - largely derived from expensing of 'Depreciation' - which any person can take on their annual tax returns even if you only have 1 rental property. Your comment of "Losses" is similar to your other comment of "brilliant business man". Losses are not a sign of brilliance or unbrilliant. Annual Losses are only 'Deferred Income'. Eventually, you pay those taxes when you sell those assets.
Rt41Rebel said...
Don't paid CPAs assume liability for mistakes in tax returns? Asking for a friend.
12/31/22, 1:10 PM
Yes, You, CPAs and/or 'Paid Preparers' (signers) who sign on the bottom of the tax returns are equally liable. Perfect example is Trump's former CEO and his not claiming Income from his corporate benefits on his personal return. He got dinged twice - once on the Corporate Return and the other on his Personal Return.
Bob R, "...I've been aware of only a few such loss caryovers, all have an order of magnitude or two smaller..."
Well, given your comments, I expected that you don't deal with the most wealthy people in the USA or World. But, as I mentioned in my original quote, as a Banker I did and Trump's losses are fairly typical for someone of his 'Net Worth' and activity as a Real Estate Investor. If you got the Governor of Illinois'- Jay Pritzker's tax returns you'd see the same but at a magnitude 2 - 4x greater than Trump. There are some 50 - 70 similar Investors in the USA who largely invest in real estate and have 'Net Worth's' much larger then Trump. Moreover, Trump and these Investors are similar to a lot of corporations who deal largely in real estate investing.
Rusty, thanks for your periodic reminder that I get under your skin.
Blogger Ray - SoCal said...
"...A real estate investor explained how you wanted to use a tax attorney, due to attorney client privilege..." 1/1/23, 10:15 AM
Ray, you're somewhat correct. But from my experience the reason "tax attorneys" are used is that the are far more creative in interpreting the tax code vs. CPAs who are heavily structured which I see as a weakness for tax law. But most wealthy families I've financed over the many years use both a CPA and Tax Attorney - in some cases multiple CPAs and Tax Attorneys. I suspect Trump does this due to his over 400 + tax entities around the World.
Blogger Michael said...
Rob R. You assert you have never seen such ginormous loss carry forwards. Can you give a couple examples of smaller loss carry forwards you have observed? Any? One?
12/31/22, 6:54 PM
Michael, in my view there's no difference - tax wise - from a 'Loss Carryforward' of $100k or $1 billion. "The Loss" is just another word for deferred "Gain". One never avoids the tax - even in 'Death'. They key of the scale differences are 'Risk'. The higher the dollar amount the greater risk to the Investor of success or failure. But that's another subject!
Bob R, looks like I can't compete when it comes to innocuous comments making Trumpists here go nuts.
Blogger Readering said...
Inflammatory comment about serial bankruptcy filer from AA, clickbait for her faithful Trumpist followers. 12/31/22, 12:43 PM
I'm sorry that your ignorance of the "Bankruptcy" laws is so similar to Bob Rs, comment of real estate tax laws.
I've seen many wealthy and not so wealthy people file for bankruptcy many times. One, in particular stands out after filing 4 times. In his Seventies he finally hit the jackpot and died with a 'Net Worth' of $500m. My point is "Bankruptcy" law is designed as a 'fresh start' and is actually a very productive way of setting up resolving many claims. Meaning in your case and claim of "serial bankruptcy" is just a political propoganda pushed out there because you don't like Trump. BTW, don't bother to answer cause I'll give you 100s of Democratic names as a response. An Economy plays no favorites!
Yinzer said he was "puzzled"? Did you miss Bob Rs zinger? "...It puts a nail in the "Trump is a brilliant business man..."
Why would you have tax losses in 'Real Estate'? I rarely pay Income Taxes on my real estate income (except for local real estate taxes) because 'Depreciation' on the buildings and the 'Interest Expense'(bought with Debt) are tax deductible. Both deductions are usually high enough to avoid paying income taxes (or minimal) until I sell the property. That's the part most Trump haters miss. But the Trump haters who know this and themselves are real estate investors it doesn't matter because hatred of the man is more important. So they are left with lies and more lies. So tiresome!
Hstad: I've got nothing against bankruptcy laws as method to allocate losses to creditors in lieu of rush to judgments, and provide fresh start to debtors. But it means bankrupts stiff a lot of creditors of a lot of $$. The tragedy is that creditors had power and $$ to persuade Congress to exclude student debt from fresh start, while a fat cat like Trump benefitted from bankruptcy law.
Readering said...
"Rusty, thanks for your periodic reminder that I get under your skin."
I find you amusing more than anything else. It's like you're a mouse in a maze. If you're given a choice of giving an informed, thought out opinion or being a snarky twat. You'll always choose to be a snarky twat.
Readering: "Bob R, looks like I can't compete when it comes to innocuous comments making Trumpists here go nuts."
Bob R, looks like I can't compete when it comes to making hilariously ignorant and misinformed comments which causes more knowledgeable people here to notice the ignorant comments.
FIFY
Rusty, you don't write like a guy amused, but a guy upset.
Readering said...
"Rusty, you don't write like a guy amused, but a guy upset."
Nah.
Rt41Rebel said...
"Don't paid CPAs assume liability for mistakes in tax returns? Asking for a friend."
At my office if we make a mistake we pay for it. It's seldom ever happened. Each return is looked at on three different desks, even pro bono returns. Most mistakes happen when clients fail to give us documents, even when we ask for them.
Then there are the "computer experts" who file online for free and don't print off a copy.
This is the Democrat playbook where they are about to be hit with really bad news, so they want to make sure they prepare the ground with ammunition for their base.
So, Hunter is going to be hit with tax issues, and this is the way you get people to ignore that.. ."well, Trump also gets foreign income"
"Well, Trump also avoids paying taxes"
(Hunter evaded taxes....didn't declare diamond gifts as income)
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