August 22, 2022
"Russia has accused Ukraine’s secret services of assassinating the daughter of an ultra-nationalist philosopher who had backed the invasion of Ukraine..."
"... prompting fears that Moscow could exploit her death to justify a new round of missile attacks on Kyiv.
Darya Dugina, 29, was killed on Saturday night when her car exploded on a highway near an elite residential region close to Moscow. She had been with her father, Alexander Dugin, at an event shortly before the blast. It is believed that he was the intended target.... However, the exiled Kremlin critic Ilya Ponomarev said a group of Russian partisan fighters known as the National Republican Army (NRA) had claimed responsibility for the bombing.... Ponomarev said he supported the NRA and defended the group’s right to launch violent attacks inside Russia. 'The war is a colossal crime,' he wrote on Telegram, the messaging app. 'There are people who consider it right to punish the initiators of the war and its ideologists. They do what they think is right.'"
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93 comments:
Dugan is Putin's Rasputin. A satanist, for a time at least, he is a dangerous influence on Putin. Apparently the daughter followed in her father's footsteps.
There are vanishingly few sane politicians.
considering all the lies given to us by the hack press - it's hard to understand what the truth is.
prompting fears that Moscow could exploit her death
You can always tell who the villains are because they're the ones who pounce after something bad happens.
Polonium 210 unavailable? *cough*
The US assassinates people all the time. Murdered that Iranian general just recently.
Murder is OK now. You can even kill someone in New York and they'll let you right back out on the streets.
That's the message. It's OK. All the things you used to think were morally wrong, they're not any more. That's the message. Are there any rules left?
Can Russia use nuclear weapons now? Like the US did?
During a war, I've never understood why non-elites (grunts, cannon fodder, civilians) believe that elites involved in starting and prosecuting a war aren't legitimate targets. My experience is that those at the top most often change their minds on an ill-advised direction or policy when it begins personally affecting them.
Hunter Biden's taxpayer funded baby momma said: "Considering all the lies given to us by the hack press - it's hard to understand what the truth is."
Is there really even a real war occurring? As I recall, if the United States was engaged in a war, CNN would send their correspondents there (usually to help the enemy, but that's for another comment).
So why isn't CNN covering the war? Is it because they cannot fake a war on live television? Where's the live correspondent shoots? Why isn't ABCNews CBS or NBC covering Biden's war in the Ukraine?
I'm not saying that the war is fake. I'm saying if it was fake, this is how they'd fake it.
wasn't she? didn't they? Weren't the mainstream media Bragging about this? Just yesterday?
Fuck Ukraine.
Assassination of ideological opponents is the way to go! This is the America that I grew up to love, with such allies.
It was Azov, as the Russians have provided sufficient evidence to show. Sure Azov is happy to lie and claim a resistance army inside of Russia did it, but the terrorists were not very good at avoiding the security cameras, both entering Russia, and at the scene. Not only that, they screwed up and killed the beautiful daughter, and not the man himself. Bad tactics to murder beautiful young women.
Watch Lindsey Graham, Amy -eats-her-salad-with-a-comb Klobochar, and John McCain plot war against Russia with Azov.
https://rumble.com/vwxxi8-ukraine-on-fire.html
Coupes and assassinations without borders is a clear and progressive (e.g. regional, world) risk with diverse precedents.
That said, The Biden/Maidan/Slavic Spring in Ukraine is Kiev's war in collusion with domestic and foreign special and peculiar interests targeting the people over eight years in progress.
Nation is just community. The TLT seems to think it has a negative connotation. America, for one, has a constitution (more so since the overturning of the Twilight Amendment) that mitigates progress motivated by diversity, redistribution, and conjured rites.
The Russian response is expected. Is it true? Maybe, maybe not, I stick it it the "noted" basket. Same with the NRA claim. And the war goes on.
Another theory is that Putin's FSB wanted to kill Alexander Dugin because he had criticized Putin. At this point, though, anybody could have done it. You could attribute the uncertainty to the riddle wrapped in a mystery inside of an enigma that is Russia, but we are experiencing similar confusion nowadays in the USA.
Can't really justify car bombings of philosophers even if they advocate for crazy things.
"considering all the lies given to us by the hack press - it's hard to understand what the truth is"
That's easy here though. Anyone using exaggerations like "ultra-nationalist" is a propagandist trying to shape opinion.
"Nationalist" doesn't sound menacing so they dress it up with adjectives so we'll believe the victim deserved to be murdered.
When somebody puts somebody else on a "kill list" and other people on that kill list have been killed, and an attempt is made on the life of the person on the kill list, I think suspicion should first light on the keepers of said list, AKA Azov, rather than some new made up organization that Azov would like dearly to exist for propaganda purposes.
This war has made me question so much history, BTW. I mean, wasn't it convenient that all of the *aircraft carriers* just happened to be out of Pearl Harbor that day, the anticipated tip of the spear in any war in the Pacific, used a few short months later to great effect in the Battle of Coral Sea, for example, and the soon to be obsolete battleships were left there, almost as bait? Naah!
I wish the US would just admit that this is about building the largest empire that the world has seen, and stop pretending it's about some kind of moral principle which we have steadfastly ignored for decades. We should have an "Empire Day," like Britain used to do, we could all cheer the wars on unirnically. Maybe I could go along with the crowd then. Iraq was a real black pill for me.
Can't we all agree that this is a terrorist act that deserves condemnation, regardless of who did it? Or have we moved on to thinking that anyone who supports Russia in this war deserves whatever happens to him or her?
Finding new excuse or excuses to attack Kyiv is the least of Russia's problems.
Is it unusual in this war for noncombatants to be killed? I thought there were many civilian casualties on the Ukrainian side. I guess the death of a politically connected person is far more important than the death of a powerless person.
The Russians have proved the asassination attempt against the father, (ended up killing the daughter), was done by Ukrainian Intelligence. Sadly, she took his car. Of course, if she'd been in the same car as her father, the assassins wouldn't have cared.
If Zelensky and his gang continue to carry on these assassinations and attack Russian civilians using NATO supplied missiles and refuse to negotiate an end to the war, then Putin will be faced with two choices:
1) Endless war and death
2) Overthrow Zelensky and install a Pro-Russian Government
Whether no 2 will have to be done by Russian tanks in Kiev, or whether the Ukrainian military will mount a Coup is unclear. But things cannot go on like this.
I would have been surprised if Putin's Russia hadn't accused the Ukraine for the attack.
""... prompting fears that Moscow could exploit her death to justify a new round of missile attacks on Kyiv"
As if Russia needs any excuse to do just that.
Seamus asked: "Can't we all agree that this is a terrorist act that deserves condemnation, regardless of who did it?"
Well, what if Joe Biden murdered her via drone flown from Vandenberg, AFB? Is Joe Biden a terrorist?
This entire war could've been ended months ago, with the Ukraine recognizing reality. The Donbas and the Crimea are under Russia control now, and they will never be ruled by Kiev again.
But Zelensky, knowing he can skip the country with an airplane full of cash, continues to fight and is now escalating the killing. Its a sad state of affairs, and the whoops and hollars for death and destruction from the usual American Yahoos is quite disgusting.
We're going bleed those Russkies dry, say the neocons and the Southern warhawks. Yeehaw! And spend billions and billions. Yeehaw!
What is the Biden regime's view on terrorist attacks directed at civilians?
Asking for a friend.
Whether the intended target or not, her role as a government propagandist makes her a legitimate target.
Russia doesn't have to justify bombing Kiev. They discover each time that it's bad press though, and like all civilian bombings throughout history, counterproductive. Excluding Hiroshima and Nagasaki. August 6th is American Technology Day.
Blogger Buckwheathikes said...
'Hunter Biden's taxpayer funded baby momma said: "Considering all the lies given to us by the hack press - it's hard to understand what the truth is."'
Oh, Dear. When I first read that, I thought that the DC stripper that Hunter knocked up (and whose child the Biden family callously refuses to acknowledge) had started issuing policy pronouncements.
Buckwheathikes said...
The US assassinates people all the time. Murdered that Iranian general just recently.
they SURE DO! usually with quite a bit a "collateral damage"
For a blast, from the past;
when the US assassinated Yamamoto (by shooting down a Military Plane, flying in a WAR ZONE);
DC wanted to hide it, because they (some of they) thought it was Bad! and Wrong!
Now we blow up people's houses, while their children are eating dinner; and we BRAG about it.
""Nationalist" doesn't sound menacing so they dress it up with adjectives so we'll believe the victim deserved to be murdered."
Funny because that's just what Putin did when giving his reasons to invade the Ukraine (*). And his faithful followers like Timmy the surrender monkey and know-nothing NN (who still thinks that Ukrainians are stupid hicks who have no idea why they are fighting) continue faithfully following his footsteps. Such loyalty to fuhrer Putin is really heartwarming.
(*) Russian propaganda loves to say that they have killed that many 'nationalists'
Is the Putin security services so incompetent to let Ukrainian operators penetrate this deeply inside the Kremlin?
Russia is famous for false flag operations. It was their pretext for invading Finland in 1939.
"Can't we all agree that this is a terrorist act that deserves condemnation, regardless of who did it? Or have we moved on to thinking that anyone who supports Russia in this war deserves whatever happens to him or her?"
Seems to me if you start a war, you don't have standing to bitch about the other side fighting back. Though it does seem that the father was a more appropriate target.
Several observations. There's a long tradition in Soviet Russia of murdering those who, for one reason or another, have fallen out of favor. Lavrenti Beria--head of the NKVD was seized just after Stalin died. Some say he was murdered when he was taken; although there was a trial and his sentence of execution was announced some four months later. Death first, trial later. And Trotsky didn't kill himself. So this could be a botched attempt by people around Putin.
Second, our press doesn't seem to mind or tut tut too much when an ISIS or Taliban capo gets taken out with a Hellfire missile in the ear delivered by the US Air Force. The press cheers or says good job and the world moves on.
Third, it is a war between Ukraine and Russia. And the young woman's father was purportedly the "brains of Putin". If the Ukrainians did it--they missed-see the first paragraph above. And back in WW II the US had no trouble in making the decision to intercept and shoot down a plane carrying Admiral Yamamoto.
It's a hard world. There have been at least two occasions where the Russkis have shot down a civilian airliner carrying hundreds of people.
Another old lawyer said...
During a war, I've never understood why non-elites (grunts, cannon fodder, civilians) believe that elites involved in starting and prosecuting a war aren't legitimate targets.
I feel the same about school shootings. The "bullied" killer never seems to get the guy(s) who bullied him, just innocent kids.
Survived the bomb, airbag killed her.
@tim "Whether the intended target or not, her role as a government propagandist makes her a legitimate target." Legitimate or not, Ukraine does not want stories that cast them in a questionable light. No such stories are allowed today.
Hunter Biden's tax payer funded Hooker said...
considering all the lies given to us by the hack press - it's hard to understand what the truth is.
Sad but true. I thought Putin should be dead from the cancer reported a month or so ago.
Tim In Vermont said-
I wish the US would just admit that this is about building the largest empire that the world has seen, and stop pretending it's about some kind of moral principle which we have steadfastly ignored for decades
I don't know but if we are actually trying to build the word's largest empire we are doing it in a kind of half-assed way, aren't we? For the last 20 years or longer, we conquer countries and then leave. If we actually wanted an empire we would stay.
I think the truth is that we've had morons as leaders and we are only now realizing it. Sure, some are money grubbers tied to defense contracts but I think, for the most part, they are poseurs who are playing statesman/woman but who have no real talent for that function. If it's an empire it's the sloppiest empire ever created. It's being created by children playing an adult game.
Seems most believe it was the wrong target. Simple remote control device available on Amazon could be used to trigger the bomb. Funny they apparently used old time mafia style.
Maybe she was the target. Wartime bomb perfect cover for bad divorce/child custody/support situation.
So terrorist/freedom fighter news filtered through Russian news filtered through American news. I see now reason to disbelieve any of this. Not that you usually can trust war propaganda anyway, but this has extra levels of doubt.
It has been said that Putin has been looking for an excuse to mobilize Russia for war. Remember, this current war is technically not a war according to Putin, so he is technically limited in what he can do. I am not sure why he cares exactly given he is essentially a despot, but apparently he thinks it matters. In any case, he cannot conscript an army under the current conditions, but he could use this as an excuse to make this an official war and get the public behind him for full mobilization.
How much this would help him is unclear. He can barely equip and support the army he has, so throwing untrained and unequipped conscripts is going to be of limited value.
Of course, if he wants an excuse to lob a nuke....
So terrorist/freedom fighter news filtered through Russian news filtered through American news. I see now reason to disbelieve any of this. Not that you usually can trust war propaganda anyway, but this has extra levels of doubt.
It has been said that Putin has been looking for an excuse to mobilize Russia for war. Remember, this current war is technically not a war according to Putin, so he is technically limited in what he can do. I am not sure why he cares exactly given he is essentially a despot, but apparently he thinks it matters. In any case, he cannot conscript an army under the current conditions, but he could use this as an excuse to make this an official war and get the public behind him for full mobilization.
How much this would help him is unclear. He can barely equip and support the army he has, so throwing untrained and unequipped conscripts is going to be of limited value.
Of course, if he wants an excuse to lob a nuke....
tim in vermont:
"wasn't it convenient that all of the *aircraft carriers* just happened to be out of Pearl Harbor that day, the anticipated tip of the spear in any war in the Pacific, used a few short months later to great effect in the Battle of Coral Sea, for example, and the soon to be obsolete battleships were left there, almost as bait? Naah!"
You're reminding me of the joke (somewhere in Nabokov) about the message found in a bottle: "We medieval mariners...."
We didn't know the battleships were soon to be obsolete, and that the aircraft carrier would be the key to the Pacific naval war, until Japanese carriers struck our battleships and wrought thorough havoc. There was an argument going on at the time. The Japanese kind of settled it for us.
Raised and repaired battleships proved useful (not central, but useful) for the rest of the war, once we operated them with awareness of their vulnerability. Hell, we brought New Jersey, the Iowa, the Wisconsin, and the Missouri out of mothballs for the Korean War, mothballed them again, then recommissioned them in the 1980s.
If I stipulate that FDR actually wanted to engineer a pretext for war, he could have done it without losing those magnificent ships (not to mention all those sailors). Getting attacked at Pearl Harbor and successfully slaughtering the attackers, with only minor damage to, say, four battleships, would have done just as well.
Then there's this... https://thegrayzone.com/2022/08/18/ukraine-veterans-us-aid-soldiers-war/
Where did it go?
"I don't know but if we are actually trying to build the word's largest empire we are doing it in a kind of half-assed way, aren't we? For the last 20 years or longer, we conquer countries and then leave. If we actually wanted an empire we would stay."
Exactly. The notion that the US is trying to build "the largest empire that the world has seen" doesn't stand up to even a cursory examination.
I wonder if the same people justifying killing THE DAUGHTER of a intellectual WHO DOES NOT HAVE POWER IN THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, would be OK with Putin assassinating the daughter (assuming they have one) of Bill Kritol or an American historian who supports Ukraine.
I guess they would.
Because they're favor of murdering anyone who advices Putin or is his friend, because...hey, they deserve it. And turnabout is fair play isn't it? Yeehaw!
Of course tough guy killers on the internet or in the press are a dime of dozen. Remember when drunk "Tough guy" Chris Hitchens wanted to drop an Abomb on Iraq. Those iraqi women/children deserved to die said "Tough guy" Hitchens.
Of course when Poor Hitch got cancer from drinking/smoking, all his buds thought it was the TRAGEDY that made THE WORLD CRY. Brave little Hitch, Tough Guy, then went on sympathy tour. I'm sure most of Neo-con killers wouldn't be 1/10 as brave.
If we're going to have female assassin spies, then they should all look like Natalia Vovk.
Oh no! Someone with a name got killed!
What is the world coming to?
MikeR said...Legitimate or not, Ukraine does not want stories that cast them in a questionable light. No such stories are allowed today
They do what they need to do. I don’t judge them even when I don’t like what I see them doing. But as others here have pointed out (and still others through history), it doesn’t make much sense that we all agree that it’s ok to win a war by killing large numbers of mostly powerless peasants in uniform but it’s not ok to win a war by killing the handful of people who actually made the war.
Can't we all agree that this is a terrorist act that deserves condemnation, regardless of who did it?
No.
Once you start a war, the rules are gone.
Putin's putas are out in force today and making the usual BS arguments.
I wonder if the same people justifying killing THE DAUGHTER of a intellectual WHO DOES NOT HAVE POWER IN THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, would be OK with Putin assassinating the daughter (assuming they have one) of Bill Kritol or an American historian who supports Ukraine.
Try this imaginary movie plot. Assassin kills Hitler's 2 year old daughter in a torturous manner, causing mental breakdown of Hitler himself, resulting in early end of the war. A bit squeamish, but not altogether vulgar, eh?
shambling declared regime change in poland, then went back to his tapioca, 60 billion has killed a lot of middle and top ranking Russian army officers
The first rule of War is there are no rules in War. Everyone is a combatant, including Ms. Dugina.
I would be surprised if some part of the Ukrainian Government was involved in her killing. Regardless if she was or was not a legitimate target, (she wasn't) there is no military objective gained by killing her or her father (her father wasn't a legitimate target either). They were cheerleaders for the war, not participants. I don't know why a military decision would have been made to kill her or her father when it risks personnel and materiel to carry it out and there is no clear gain. I could see a Ukrainian paramilitary group carrying it out. I could see this supposed NRA carrying it out. I could see Russia's FSB or some other agency carrying it out and using the death to inspire support for the war and possibly to crackdown domestically on dissidents. But I see no clear benefit flowing to Ukraine from this death, nor would I expect to see any if it had been her father that had died either. Which makes me skeptical that a Ukrainian military or government group would carry it out.
They were cheerleaders for the war, not participants.
Three elements of opinion.
1. They were cheerleaders.
2. They were only cheerleaders and had no other role.
3. War cheerleaders aren't war participants.
Reminds me of "oral don't count".
Whether the intended target or not, her role as a government propagandist makes her a legitimate target.
Really? Do you really want to go there? Because if you do, you're saying that Saddam Hussein could have considered Jonah Goldberg, Charles Krauthammer, and all the other neocon pundits calling for regime change in Baghdad to be legitimate targets.
Or are only good guys entitled to kill non-combatants?
Once you start a war, the rules are gone.
Congratulations, you'd just said it would have been permissible for Slobovan Milosovic to have set off car bombs in Washington during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999.
I don't know what happened at Pearl Harbor, but I do know that "our government would never do anything so perfidious" is not a strong argument.
But apparently today is "let's celebrate murdering people we don't agree with for speech" day.
There have been at least two occasions where the Russkis have shot down a civilian airliner carrying hundreds of people.
Was one of those airliners Iran Air Flight 655? No, I see that it was someone else who effed up in that case (but didn't deliberately shoot down the plane).
@tim - I've got no problem with that. My problem is with the American coverage of Ukraine.
I think that what is happening in the United States with how information is controlled and presented, is up there with the most serious problems we have. I have a problem with anyone (perhaps not you) who wants to distract me from that.
And back in WW II the US had no trouble in making the decision to intercept and shoot down a plane carrying Admiral Yamamoto.
Shooting down Admiral Yamamoto didn't violate the norm against targeting non-combatants.
Congratulations, you'd just said it would have been permissible for Slobovan Milosovic to have set off car bombs in Washington during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999.
So what's your theory? That some god would have condemned him to hell?
"doesn't stand up to even a cursory examination."
Look at a map of US military bases worldwide.
"you're saying that Saddam Hussein could have considered Jonah Goldberg, Charles Krauthammer, and all the other neocon pundits calling for regime change in Baghdad to be legitimate targets."
Now that you put it that way, it sounds pretty legit.
Of course it's also a valid argument then that she was a legitimate target for Putin, since her dad was on an Azov kill list (this is not debatable) he could pin it on them easily, and use it to ramp up Russian unity even further, but I think that articles in the Western press arguing for the breakup of the Russian Federation has worked pretty well already.
Just because one side fucks up, doesn't make it true that the other side must have planned it.
If the Russian "have proved" the as[s]assination "was done by Ukrainian Intelligence" (as tim in vermont 12:43 and rcocean 1:26 agree), perhaps one or the other could provide a link to some evidence? And not just evidence but proof that this is so?
If 'tim in vermont' wants to tell us (1:07) about a "kill list" on which some have already been killed, he again needs to provide a link, tell us the evidence for the existence and authenticity of such a list and the killings supposedly done from it.
So much of what both of them write is obviously false that I am not inclined to believe either of them without a great deal of evidence. For instance:
No, the war would not end if Zelenskyy fled the country: his people elected him and support him and will continue fighting with or without him, though more successfully with him.
2. Nor would not he be safe doing so: Putin's former chief of staff and deputy prime minister who quit in March because of the war, Anatoly Chubais, was hiding out in an unnamed country until 8/1, when he turned up deathly ill in a Sardinian emergency room, unable to walk or close his eyes. Zelenskyy will live a lot longer in Ukraine than in any possible exile - not to mention keeping his self-respect.
3. No, the Russians will not be satisfied with Crimea and Donbas and a more pro-Russian (~Nazi collaborator) unelected ruler in place of the one they elected. Russian leaders have been quite openly showing maps of the new Russia in which it occupies Odessa and the entire coastline and lots more, and some openly talk of occupying it all, plus other countries, not just Ukraine.
4. The statement that "The Donbas and the Crimea . . . will never be ruled by Kiev again" shows remarkable ignorance of how the war is actually going right now. It's not hard to find out a great deal about that. I recommend starting with Trent Telenko's Twitter feed and going from there. We know more about this war than just about any in the past. For instance, there is an international satellite system designed to track forest fires that allows anyone with the spare time to track exactly where the artillery is being fired on any day to see how the front line is moving. See DefMon3 on Twitter.
The only way I see Russia winning decisively is if the Putin-fans here and elsewhere convince whoever's making Biden's decisions for him to cut off all supplies to the Ukrainians and let them run out of ammunition. Even then, what the smaller NATO countries are supplying may suffice. You do know that 20,000+ Russians on the north side of the Dnipro with no working bridges to get ammunition, fuel, or food, don't you? Supplying an army with barges on a wide open river under enemy fire is not a very promising strategy.
ah yugoslavia where we served as al queda's aircover, how did that work out again,
"when the US assassinated Yamamoto (by shooting down a Military Plane, flying in a WAR ZONE);
DC wanted to hide it, because they (some of they) thought it was Bad! and Wrong!"
Nonsense! They wanted to hide it because the circumstances made it abundantly clear that they had broken at least one Japanese code (in fact, they had broken all of them).
"Or are only good guys entitled to kill non-combatants?"
You have to have a base you can fly drones from. Otherwise, your activities are immoral and illegal. Maybe that's why Biden and Harris don't want to visit the Border. Afraid they'll be vaporized in a completely legal and moral Narco drone strike out of Tamaulipas.
tim in vermont said...
"This war has made me question so much history, BTW. I mean, wasn't it
convenient that all of the *aircraft carriers* just happened to be out of Pearl Harbor that day, the anticipated tip of the spear in any war in the Pacific, used a few short months later to great effect in the Battle of Coral Sea, for example, and the soon to be obsolete battleships were left there, almost as bait? Naah!"
The Battleships were still seen as the Most Important Ships. The Aircraft Carriers were just supposed to provide air cover in 1941.
We only had two operating out of Pearl at the time. The Lexington was 400 miles from Midway, carrying airplanes for Midway. It was transporting Marine Scout Bomber Squadron 231 to Midway, but turned back when they heard about the attack.
The Enterprise was 200 miles west of Oahu at dawn on the 7th, they had just delivered Marine Fighter Squadron 221 to Wake Island on December 4th. Some of Enterprise's planes arrived during the attack on Pearl.
The Saratoga was just sailing into San Diego, when they heard.
The Yorktown had been stationed in the Pacific. It was sent to the Atlantic in mid 1941 along with 3 Battleships, 4 light cruisers, and 2 destroyer squadrons. She was sent back after the attack.
(info from History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, vol III, The Rising Sun in the Pacific)
So the absence of the carriers is explained. We had very few. They were busy. This was very much the time when the Battleship "ruled" the sea. The battleships at Pearl were the prime target. Japan built special torpedoes for the shallow water to be able to strike the battleships.
I am almost certain Roosevelt knew something was happening. After the disaster at Pearl, no one could ever admit they had known. So they did the impossible, a successful coverup.
If the info got out, Roosevelt would have been impeached. He was trying to get Japan to attack us with the oil embargo. Japan had only two choices. Attack America, or leave China. The Japanese code would not let them leave China. War was certain.
Like the current war in the Ukraine. No one knew what was next. Both sides underestimated the other, and what they might do. An important lesson for today. I see dangerous parallels with Russia today and 1941 Japan.
the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999
A predecessor to the Slavic Spring, where Muslims attacking Christians progressed through denial of civil services, under sanction of NATO air cover.
Howard said...
Is the Putin security services so incompetent to let Ukrainian operators penetrate this deeply inside the Kremlin?
The Russian Military turned out to be corrupt and incompetent. A bunch of featherbedding idiots and losers who told Putin he could take over Ukraine with 130,000 troops.
Kinda like our generals telling Bush things that were silly and ridiculous things to get us into Iraq and Afghanistan. Those idiots planned on occupying Iraq with less than 100,000 troops.
I don't know why the FSB would be any different. Our FBI is currently in competition with them to prove who is more incompetent and corrupt.
I think it is safe to assume that pretty much every government agency in the world is corrupt and incompetent until it proves otherwise.
This revolves around the type of person that is drawn to government service. They are generally mediocre people who cannot succeed in a competitive environment but they really like being in charge of other people.
"tim in vermont said...
"doesn't stand up to even a cursory examination."
Look at a map of US military bases worldwide.
8/22/22, 5:30 PM"
Many of those US military bases are just an office with one or two service members.
Original Mike said...
"Can't we all agree that this is a terrorist act that deserves condemnation, regardless of who did it? Or have we moved on to thinking that anyone who supports Russia in this war deserves whatever happens to him or her?"
Seems to me if you start a war, you don't have standing to bitch about the other side fighting back. Though it does seem that the father was a more appropriate target.
She seemed to be saying the same things as dad.
Why was he more "appropriate?"
Cuz she was a girl? I haven't seen her picture but I am assuming blond and attractive. Just a hunch.
I am thinking this "combatant non-combatant" distinction is pretty shitty. Most of the soldiers fighting in the Russian army are conscripts.
She was happy to force those Russian men to go fight Ukraine.
I wanted to say fuck her but that might be misconstrued. I am less sad about a chicken hawk warmonger getting killed than a conscripted man who actually fights against his will.
There are a bunch of shithead warmongers in DC that are in the same boat as this Dugin fellow.
Blogger tim in vermont said..."I don't know what happened at Pearl Harbor,…"
But you assume "something" did.
Why stop at Pearl Harbor? Area 51 has so much more potential.
Seamus said...
Whether the intended target or not, her role as a government propagandist makes her a legitimate target.
Really? Do you really want to go there? Because if you do, you're saying that Saddam Hussein could have considered Jonah Goldberg, Charles Krauthammer, and all the other neocon pundits calling for regime change in Baghdad to be legitimate targets.
Or are only good guys entitled to kill non-combatants?
I want to go there.
As a former combatant who watched helmets thrown at the TV in the chow hall in Afghanistan during some of our "news coverage" I can tell you that some of these "pundits" were none too popular with the grunts.
I am not a big fan of chicken hawks and liars. She is in the same boat as all the warmongers here in the US trying to start a war with Russia they intend to send other people to fight and die in.
Russia does not need any excuses to bombard Kiev with missiles as Russia is already at war with Ukraine. Or Special Military Operation-ing with Ukraine.
Honestly, what the hell does killing Admiral Yamamato in WW II have to do with killing the daughter of a commentator/Political thinker who isn't even part of the Government? Russia and Ukraine aren't even - officially - at war.
And we didn't drop an agent in Tokyo to kill Yamamoto and his family with a timebomb, we ambushed the 2-3 transport planes (with fighter escort) that were transporting Yamamoto around a fucking war zone. What was he doing in the war zone? He was helping plan the new japanese offensive.
Talk about apples and oranges. Its as if someone tried to equate killing an Admiral who visits the frontline in a war, with murdering his daughter in peacetime in Tokyo.
Of course, some people can't think. "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. Kill all them furriners, even the babies". Of course, these are the same morons who can't tell you what all the killing was about 5 years after the war. I don't think they care, they just like war and killing people. Yee haw!
"Why stop at Pearl Harbor?"
Nobody ever noticed that if you want to mobilize your nation for a war you want to fight, it would be far better if the other side should attack first, so that your populace is angry and ready to fight, rather than carping about being dragged into a war of choice?
You should read "The Guns of August" and see how much effort went in to getting the other side to start a war that side one desperately wanted to fight, at the outset of WWI.
Ukraine massed troops for an offensive against Donbas, and unleashed an artillery barrage that signalled the beginning of the offensive while Russia had all of those troops massed on the border. What the artillery was doing was inviting Russia in for a war.
Why didn't Biden even pick up the phone to try to prevent this war? Because he wanted it to happen. Biden told Putin "where he could shove his red lines." Imagine if Trump had said something like that.
Some Westerners really have a hard time grasping the reality of existential struggles. That's
what is going on in Ukraine, for many millions.
But there are commenters here who have missed their callings as geopoliticians and strategists, obviously, and those with access to the inner workings of the embattled regimes, apparently.
Lucky Althousers!
Me: "Nationalist" doesn't sound menacing so they dress it up with adjectives so we'll believe the victim deserved to be murdered.
Phil: "Funny because that's just what Putin did when giving"
Weird. I point out the tell that reveals the article is suspect, you reflexively resort to "Russia does too!". Your mask is slipping.
"Cuz she was a girl?"
No, cuz I get the impression the father had a role in encouraging Putin to do this. If that's true, then fuck him. Now, that may very well not be true; I could be wrong. I haven't paid close enough attention to really know, nor do I intend to start. I only have so much bandwidth.
"Look at a map of US military bases worldwide."
Boy, do I think you've mis-analyzed this. You think those bases are imposing US dictates on the local population? Cuz that's what empires do.
It's part and parcel with your delusion that Russia is justified in invading Ukraine because Poland is in NATO.
Where has our money gone in the Ukraine? At the link is a list of Russian lives and equipment lost to Ukrainians using weapons we sent them.
https://storage1.censor.net/images/9/4/f/5/94f5eec16998f35a4d84c8accf2c57f0/780x1083.jpg
What has the war to do with us?
- We don't want to fight a two front war. The Ukrainians for their own reasons are seriously weakening any possible Russian front by their struggle. Also they have shown that the Russian forces have great weakness in an attack.
- The war has halted Russia's push to restore the Russian/Soviet empire.
- The war has led our NATO allies to increase their contributions and readiness.
- The war has led Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
- The war has led the EU to move away from depending on Russian oil and gas.
- New weapons and tactics have been tested on the battlefield. Planes and tanks are at risk from drones and various weapons carried by single individuals.
- The Ukrainians are trying to stay in the West and this must be a wish the Russian people have as well. The Ukrainian effort is impacting the social basis of the Russian tyranny which is silent hopelessness and apathy.
We're so used to people not wanting to fight for democracy that now when they do want to fight many of us are hesitating. We wonder if it's real. I've had those thoughts but I think you can't explain the effort the whole country is making except by thinking they want to be free and they will fight for that. If they lose Putin will be strengthened and will start a war somewhere else in Europe and we'll have to fight this same fight at a greater disadvantage. That is what happened when people decided to be "realistic" about Czechoslovakia and not support it against Hitler; and then they found themselves fighting Hitler anyhow, in Poland, at a greater disadvantage than if they had fought him in Czechoslovakia. Peace is what we want but it's not what Putin wants and we have to go through his armies to get it back.
Murdering civilians is OK. But you have to give them a fair trial first…unless they are named Trump. The famous existential threats are always fair game. CIA means never having to say you’re sorry. Even when massacring Seal Team that was in the raid on Ben Lauren’s home
Does anyone know whether 'tim in vermont' is talking about 2014 or 2022 in his 8:30 comment? He seems incapable of making himself point clear. Either way, his point is idiotic, but I'm wondering whether it's even true. Democratic Ukraine has a perfect right to put down bloody rebellions inside its own borders, particularly when they are financed and in part fought by agents sent by an enemy power. Suppressing insurrections is in no way an 'invitation' to a brutal tyrant bent on conquest to invade.
I have it on good authority that the area of Russia east of the Crimea bridge around Novorossiysk, and at the mouth of the Don around Rostov, is more than 50% Ukrainian, and most of the wide area between tho two places named is more than 75% Ukrainian. Yet we all know, as does Zelenskyy, that if Ukraine had smuggled weapons and armed agents into the area and encouraged the local ethnic Ukrainians to rise in armed revolt against the Russian minority and join their provinces to Ukraine by force, back when the area was right next door across a convenient bridge, it would have been a major war-crime. The same principle applies to Putin.
Some of Putin's supporters here are starting to sound like Ezra Pound talking about Mussolini, though Mussolini was a lot less murderous than Putin.
What Seamus said.
"Ukraine massed troops for an offensive against Donbas, and unleashed an artillery barrage that signalled the beginning of the offensive while Russia had all of those troops massed on the border. What the artillery was doing was inviting Russia in for a war."
Ukraine wanted this war? On the face of it, that seems crazy. Can you please back up this assertion with a reason why Ukraine would want a war with their much larger and better equipped neighbor?
I ought to take this very seriously, but the idea of Iraqi assassins going after Jonah Goldberg has such comedic potential.
Lot's of good stuff here to take to the cafes.
A cafe' is a great idea, Tim.
Meanwhile, how about you read a book beside Babs Tuchman's--which wasn't that great in its day and is just quaint now.
rcocean: Dugan is no more merely a philosopher or civilian than, say, Dick Cheney was during Bush II. Neither was his daughter. I'm not expressing an opinion beyond that about the bombing. Dugan was a fascist who founded a political party and urged war against Ukraine and other satellite states to regain Russia's glorious recent past. And like many fascists, he dabbled in Satanism and other esoteric realms occupied with obtaining power. But just because that sounds nutty doesn't mean he isn't a politically powerful force in Putin's inner circle, or at least was, for decades.
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