Said Ron DeSantis, quoted in "Ron DeSantis suggests France would ‘fold’ if it was invaded by Russia/The 2024 presidential nominee contender also angrily chastised students on stage with him for wearing masks as 'Covid theatre'" (The Guardian).
I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump.
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160 comments:
I’m setting aside my notion that DeSantis might not have the stones for national office. Oorah.
DeSantis fails to take into account that Frenchmen wouldn't have to fight because they have nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. Their conventional military force might prove inadequate -- surveys suggest a pretty low percentage of the population would be willing to fight (similar to all the other Western powers). But that's the point of the nuclear deterrent! They don't need a million men willing to take up arms. They need, like, maybe ten?
He seems like the kind of person who would lie about the number of casualties if he were ever in charge of a war.
The idea that DeSantis was a "more palatable, elegant version of Trump" was always a fantasy. You don't get Trump's ideas without having Trump's attitude. Trying to find someone more "palatable" and "elegant" is how you end up with squishes and backstabbers. Being a bit of an asshole forces one to develop a thick skin, and a confidence in one's own ideas.
Would France put up any resistance?
Years ago Google had a gag bomb on its search function. You'd enter "French military victories" and the auto-correct would ask, "Did you mean French military defeats?"
Desantis is positioning to win a primary, which involves moving to the right.
It's not a good look. France is a good ally and a very nationalistic country. Why needlessly put them down?
Hard to believe that Ron DeSantis would say such an insulting thing regarding France. In his effort to praise Ukraine he did not need to put down an ally. This will become a talking point for the Dems. soon enough An unforced error and not very smart of DeSantis. I do like DeSantis and think he’s a very good governor for FL.
DeSantis is not far from the truth. Reminds me of the Norman McDonald bit about both world wars being close. The new world order is a lot like the old. That’s what Putin is betting on.
Well, the French don't have a great track record, non?
DeSantis is wrong about the French being "surrender monkeys" but then that myth has pervaded the minds of many millions for decades.
He's right, however, about the idiotic mask theatre - and more people need to call that nonsense out, as he did. And yeah, DeSantis is more "elegant" than Trump...and they are both great for the very reason that such as Althouse find them unpalatable and inelegant.
why do R go for cheap shots instead of thoughtful pungent irascibe etc.
: talking down to electorate?
is France in NATO or too smart for that?
Oh brother.
A Trumpian comment, for sure.
That said, most of these Western European countries don’t spend enough on defense. And it’s tough to envision the citizenry of any of them react like Ukrainians.
DeSantis singled out the French. Not sure why. Better not to have made the comment at all. But if you’re going to make a point, better to encompass all of them. Trump would have.
I can't figure out what audience he's attempting to reach or think he's reaching with this comment. It certainly can't be, or shouldn't be, believed by him as resonating with the GOP base.
It harkens back to the cheese eating surrender monkeys and freedom fries taking the place of french fries in the run-up to the Iraq Invasion in 2003 but only a seriously deluded person could seriously argue today that France didn't, just possibly, have the right side of the argument back then.
We were told Biden was all that. How are you liking all THAT unity he was supposed to bring back???
The World War II French Resistance was a lot more myth and a lot less heroism than later stories might suggest. And during their invasion of France the Germans got well inside the French army’s OODA loop (decades before anyone knew what an OODA loop was) and stayed there. Military communications have improved a little bit since 1940, so things might be a bit different were Russians to invade France in the 21st century. No generals sending orders to divisions that had been surrounded and forced to surrender, no ordering troops to defend positions that were already miles behind the front lines, that sort of thing.
That said, allow me to express my skepticism that Althouse will be as diligent looking for comments by the likes of Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, or Tony Evers that could be used against them. She is what she is, now and forever. Elitist to the last.
It's obvious if you watch the video with sound that DeSantis isn't angry with the kids. He's annoyed with the set up and judging by how "set" his words are, he's been saying it for awhile to many different groups he meets with.
The press has been trying to get something that could be painted negatively for awhile now, I'm certain. This is why they added captions to the video. Watched without sound, it's a lot easier to imagine the nonexistent malice they need to be present for this story to take off.
The manipulation is obvious once one knows what to look for.
And I just love the fact the Neocons who propagandized their way into the Iraq War are clutching their pearls over insulting the French. It's unbelievable.
According to foreign policy expert VP Kamala Harris, a big country (Russia) invading a smaller country (France) would be bad. So there's that.
Unfortunately, India, a big country, and China, an even bigger country, support the Vlad.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
It's the Guardian for goodness sakes. If they didn't frame DeSantis' comments in the manner they did they wouldn't be the Guardian. For the sake of discussion lets say that DeSantis was described accurately in his manner of comments. I say give him a pay raise. Little fucking pukes. But now I'm saying more about me than either the Great Governor from the Great State of Florida or the Guardian writer and editors.
Workers are icky. The peasants are revolting.
The cheese-eating surrender monkeys have the history from 1940, so there is that.
Its eems to be a thing with the Center-Right to sneer at the French for being "Surrender Monkeys". Very dumb and very wrong. 90,000 French Soldiers died in 6 weeks of fighting. By comparison the US Army lost 110,000 in 11 MONTHS on the Western Front in 1944-45.
If it's in the Guardian, it must be a fact.
Althouse helped to get this war in Ukraine started by voting for weak leaders like Obama. De Santis isn't wrong.
They will always come up with something that makes the Republican nominee look crazy. They called boring-ass Mitt Romney and George W. Bush racist Nazi Klansmen. You think they can't do it to anyone else?
I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump.
But I was told by so many people that Desantis was Trump without the mean tweets!
And more seriously we have a vegetable in office because of people like Ann.
The reason we have such shitty leaders is because so many women look at these elections like they are choosing a boyfriend.
The one they cheat with, not the one they marry.
A lot of men are looking for a tribal leader so it isn't like they are much better.
I found it interesting that the media spent much more energy on DeSantis telling students they could take off their mask. That’s a low story of the day. DeSantis insulting a NATO ally is bad form and insulting. It’s red meat for some, but it doesn’t suggest good leadership to me. You can praise Ukraine resistance while not carrying on the last century stereotype of France. Besides, France is less a problem here than Germany, and it was just our government that folded in Afghanistan.
As far as his criticism of college students wearing masks, DeSantis is a breath of fresh air. Throughout human history, young people have thought of themselves as immortal. What happened? How come, when I go to the gym, the only people wearing masks are 20- and 30-somethings? Good for him to mention this -- nobody else is.
The Left attacks DeSantis because they are threatened by a successful politician with elite credentials who does not seem to care what the other elites think of him. The amazing thing is that his victory margin in 2018 was only 0.4%. The U.S. would be a much different country if he had lost.
I'm worried about US troops folding. When climate change and racism are said to be our biggest threats, it devalues the warrior culture, which has already been diminished by Girl Power. And even Girl Power has been diminished by Trans Rights.
The French have been demoralized since Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo, and wearing masks has been theater, a virtue signal, or obedient compliance since day one. Take your pick, but they have never been a deterrent to getting the virus. DeSantis is a breath of fresh air.
Did you watch the video? I think that is a wild mischaracterization by the Guardian of how DeSantis talked to the students.
Is he wrong about France? I don't know. I think so, but...
I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump.
The nature of this statement is why we're in the mess we're in and I'm convinced it's why civilizations die.
How about considering supporting good policies instead of if you'd like to be friends with/date/blow the candidate?
The good guys are up against devoted Rules for Radicals politicians. Do those seem like good people to you?
Althouse, you are engaging in a lefty perspective of conservative politicians - give them a chance but say one thing that I find questionable and write them off. I don’t see you applying that rule to Dem politicians like Clinton, etc. The rule only applies to conservatives who seem like the “other”. Revealing.
Not me, living in Florida has given me an appreciation of our Governor. Trump Vs DeSantis, I'm with DeSantis.
In the Second World War France folded at once when it was invaded. The French soldiers had listened to lefty propaganda about not fighting in a "capitalist war" so they surrendered, expecting to go home. Thinking, "what if they had a war and no one came?" They were marched off to work as slave labor in Germany in fields and factories. The Ukrainians however understand before they are enslaved that they will be enslaved by RUBK if the Russians win. RUBK is Putin's dream, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and Khazakstan = RUBK - an empire with a large territory, with 200 million people, agriculture and oil.* De Santis, because he lives among former Cubans, knows as well as the Ukrainians what is coming from a man like Putin. And so, as Althouse rightly says, the campaign against De Santis is beginning. He's not a sweet little tourist agent running a sunshine-and-beach state for weary DC government types? well then, destroy him. If you can.
*Austin Bay said that. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/03/podcast-a-sit-rep-on-ukraine-with-col-austin-bay.php
A typical politician's mistake: if you say something good about someone, you don't have to also say something negative about someone else. It makes you look small. It is what makes Joe Biden look like such a little insecure twit.
Ronald Reagan was the consummate politician because he knew how to give praise, even to people he didn't much care for.
That's the problem with women voters - They looks for "palatable" and "elegant" over policy and results.
The media are twisting and characterizing anything a successful Republican says.
All while they ignore Biden family corruption.
nothing new.
A minor incursion. Mow thats elegance.
It harkens back to the cheese eating surrender monkeys and freedom fries taking the place of french fries in the run-up to the Iraq Invasion in 2003 but only a seriously deluded person could seriously argue today that France didn't, just possibly, have the right side of the argument back then.
France and Germany wanted the sanctions ended so that they could go in and cut oil deals with Saddam. Any opposition to war was based on their desire to deal with him because it benefitted their oil and gas companies. If the options are leave Saddam in power and free from sanctions, or remove him, I'll support removal every time.
>Achilles said...
The reason we have such shitty leaders is because so many women look at these elections like they are choosing a boyfriend.
The one they cheat with, not the one they marry.<
Achilles wins the thread.
France has the Marceau Line.
"I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump"
A little rough for nice women, I agree. But how much longer will the U.S. have the luxury of catering to their sensibilities?
Rougher men are on the international scene. Since we are no longer the one superpower, we have to deal with it. Trump tried, in his bumbling way. DeSantis is saying he would and he can. He apparently prefers being serious over being "elegant." We'll see if America is in the mood to get serious.
Yeah, and Rubio and Trump drink water weirdly. And Perry stumbled in a speech. Ford stumbled on airplane steps. Some of the movies Reagan starred in were silly. Romney put a dog on a car roof, and might have cut someone's hair in high school. Cruz took a vacation during a cold snap instead of staying put and looking concerned, and besides he looks a little like Eddie Munster.
And the list goes on and on. And yeah, yeah, pubs do it to dems as well.
Friggin' mean girl journalism.
It's amazing how a tiny thing can destroy a candidate, if that candidate is on the non-left.
But a big thing - like international money laundering and influence peddling for personal gain (to the tune of millions and millions) by an entire political family (Biden Pelosi Clinton) GARNERS a big fat nothing from the hack press.
it's not a good look. France is a good ally
I disagree. They left NATO and kicked us out of France in the 1950's. They bailed and stuck us with Vietnam. They were trying to rip off the Australians with the nuclear sub sale.
Is there any reason to believe a characterization of DeSanti's quote by the Guardian? What did he actually say? If you believe how the Press reports it, you've learned nothing during the Trump Administration.
"Angrily" is a loaded and subjective term that assumes a great deal about DeSantis' emotional state. "Impatiently" or "brusquely" would be more accurate, but they the right prejudicial flair for the article.
"Loaded and subjective" is a good description for the entire piece, which spends quite a bit of time trying to crowbar in facts that aren't relevant to the story but do paint the intended unhinged DeSantis picture. Indeed given the nature and lack of grace of the article I can easily picture Martin Pengelly "angrily" typing at his computer.
I will not say that Martin was angry, though, because I am not a mind reader.
"And more seriously we have a vegetable in office because of people like Ann."
There's very little use trying to please me. I have a hard time finding a politician I can even tolerate, and I can remember ever liking one. I'd thought DeSantis had some potential, but I'm not investing my limited supply of hope in him.
A peripheral here in California graduated college. All the graduates crossed the stage wearing a mask. It looked, and was, really stupid. The video and photos they taken to memorialize the big day will retain that flavor forever.
'I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump.'
Why? Is he wrong?
There were 100M people in France during WWII, and 200M in the Resistance.
Funny how that works.
As for DeSantis, you can't argue with his background.
France has actually shown more sense than Biden so far. 14 new nuke plants, for example. Even Germany has changed course. Not Biden.
'90,000 French Soldiers died in 6 weeks of fighting. By comparison the US Army lost 110,000 in 11 MONTHS on the Western Front in 1944-45.'
Fight smarter, not harder...
In the Second World War France folded at once when it was invaded.
This is a complete lie as shown by the French causualty lists. Midwits keep saying it - for some reason.
My big concern is that he'll do a Scott Walker. Have some early successes, go for higher office, lose to a fish like Jeb Bush and then disappear into obscurity.
The frog bashing is very 2003. I haven't indulged since they got rid of that worm Chirac. I'd recommend he do the same.
The nature of this statement is why we're in the mess we're in and I'm convinced it's why civilizations die.
How about considering supporting good policies instead of if you'd like to be friends with/date/blow the candidate?
That would require using logic and reason instead of emotion.
I have a hard time finding a politician I can even tolerate, and I can remember ever liking one
You're not supposed to be picking a boyfriend. You're supposed to be picking the man who will do the best job as president.
I recall just before the start of the Gulf War air campaign when we were looking for missile shooters to form the screen around the four carrier operating box in the Persian Gulf, the Force commander and I helo'd down to Jebel Ali, UAE where the French navy flagship and two French missile shooters were in port. We asked the French admiral whether we could count on his ships joining the Arabian Sea Battle Force for service in screening the carrier box, and he replied that his orders were, in the event hostilities seemed imminent, to sortie his squadron to Djibouti 1500 miles to the South on the Horn of Africa and protect French interests there. We didn't see them again until the war was over, but apparently the tactic was successful since Saddam didn't attack Djibouti at all. So, yeah, DeSantis was using hyperbole, but hyperbole perhaps based on some element of reality.
Can anyone name a Democrat leader who isn't dishonest, corrupt, and morally bankrupt? Seriously. One who doesn't throw around nasty, vicious slanders relentlessly? Just one? Can't do it.
Ann's standards are so flexible (or distorted) as to be no standards at all.
"Althouse will be as diligent looking for comments by the likes of Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, or Tony Evers that could be used against them."
🙄 Yeah, Ann NEVER calls out Biden or Harris for saying stupid shit.
rcocean says it's wrong to sneer at the French as surrender monkeys. After all the French lost 90,000 men in just six weeks of fighting in 1940--by contrast the US Army lost 111,000 men in 11 months of fighting in Western Europe--1944-45.
Ocean forgets Patton's message to his troops. "Your job is not to die for your country--your job is to make some other poor SOB die for his country". By the Patton standard, the French soldiers were getting all wrong.
As for our host's desire to find a politician who is "elegant and palatable", I'll give her my state's governor--Gavin Newsom. She can have him as far as I care--and good riddance. But he would be a disaster as President. His hair would always look good though.
So the walls are closing in on DeSantis too?
Looks like the 2024 campaign is starting.
Who are all the new posters here? All anti-DeSantis.
Yeah, Fuck him. Achilles was right. He's a gigantic POS and calculating opportunist willing to do the bidding of our tyrannical enemies.
He's being a Karen about the masks and is giving aid and comfort to the terrorist Putin by slagging our allies at best and signalling a greenlight to attack France at worst.
When Putin is defeated, I hope Congress fires up HUAC to cancel these quislings and traitors. Cancel with extreme prejudice.
Much like the media chose to highlight comments made as asides by Trump, ignoring the meat of his public appearances, in order to denigrate him as a candidate and as a president, the media now ignores what DeSantis is promoting as his ideology and policy, and instead falsely accuses him of cruelty to children. I'd file this under "civility bullshit" by the media.
The article, way down near the bottom, does point out that in the speech he gave, DeSantis proposed energy independence for the US and cessation of European reliance on Russian oil and gas, as a means of reducing the influence of Putin. Odd that this rather important policy aspect of the speech got so little attention, in favor of a false accusation about masks.
It used to be said of the Soviet newspaper "Pravda" that to know what was happening in the world, one first read only the last bits of articles, and then noted what was omitted from the story, to have a more truthful set of facts than the published version. US media is becoming more like that every day.
DeSantis will be effective, abrasive, and well hated in Madison.
I want Oxford comma bonus points.
Pissing people off at a personal level is not necessarily a good idea. John McCain’s hatred for President Trump may have saved the ACA. Ross Perot’s hatred for President Bush (pere) may have allowed Clinton to be elected with 43% of the popular vote in 1992.
The comments about France notwithstanding, anything anyone can do to smash Covid theatre is welcome. I also have difficulty imagining any Republican being upset that Desantis isn't the "more palatable, elegant version of Trump". Trump is, to Althouses's reckoning, neither "palatable" nor "elegant" yet he received more 'actual' votes than any other candidate in history not named Biden. Republicans & independents will have no trouble pulling the lever for Desantis should he be the nominee.
DeSantis is a fucking hoodlum, with limited policy bandwidth, pretty much like trump. Lacks Trump's showmanship and manipulative skills, though.
@DD Driver, not as often as she might, no.
Let me refine that a little. He has some skill at making a splash and manipulating the mob -- but not near Trump's level.
Eh - we overdid the "French surrender immediately" jokes back in 2003. I'd guess DeSantis hasn't read about the French paratroopers at Dien Bien Phu.
It is true that their Army was on paper more than a match for Germany's in 1939, and that they held out for less time than did the Warsaw Ghetto. That was a matter of leadership and national mood. I still think Herman Wouk put it best in discussing the aftermath:
"Who then, she thought, were the 'collaborationists,' derided and excoriated by the Allied press and the de Gaulle broadcasts? Here they were.
"Wasn't it so? They were the French.[...]
"They had lost. They had spilled rivers of blood to win the first war, paid their taxes for twenty years, done what their politicians had demanded, built the Maginot Line, gone to war under prestigious generals; and the Germans had taken Paris. Eh bien, je m'en fiche!"
I agree with Ann that most politicians fail to deliver the kind of genuine inspiration we are looking for or need.
They usually end up saying something stupid.
But it's amazing how the left have 20 forgives to the GOP's zero forgives - when it comes to saying something stupid.
My use of Garner is pure snark. I hate the word, too.
"I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump."
You voted for Hillary.
"There's very little use trying to please me. I have a hard time finding a politician I can even tolerate, and I can remember ever liking one."
Feelz aside, what do you want the next president to do? What direction should the country take? How should we respond to the roughness of the rough men abroad? More energy production, or less? More illegal immigration, or less? Tougher toward China, or not? More welfare spending, or not? More ACBs on the court, or Jacksons? And sorry, you can't have boring, as $5 trillion in blowout Covid spending and now Putin have shown.
I noticed all the new commenters too.
I see Howard the Chinese troll bot is trying out some new AI rubrics today. Almost passed the Turing test but put too many nonsensical ideas in a line. I'm sure Beijing will adjust for that.
“Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics.”
– Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps)
Amateurs think DeSantis insulted the French, professionals think he is giving them a needed kick in the ass!
France has a NATO defense budget commitment of 2% of GDP. They have not been meeting it.
Further, what is their military readiness? Prior to the Ukraine invasion, what percentage of the French fighter aircraft could have lifted off on short notice with a full load of functional anti-aircraft missiles? I would wager it was a very low percentage.
It does not matter how brave your people are - you cannot stop tanks or airplanes with spitwads!
The internet is full of keyboard commanders (such as myself), but to hear Leftists speak authoritatively on life-or-death topics for which they ZERO knowledge is particularly painful.
When one's metrics are that male shorts or drinking with a straw are quite out of bounds, this is not a surprising volte face.
Reminds me of that joke: How are women like cell phones? They like to be talked to and held but you push a single wrong button and you are disconnected.
I may have to support Tucker Carlson for President. There are pretty much no Republicans left who are trying to keep us out of war.
"There's very little use trying to please me. I have a hard time finding a politician I can even tolerate, and I can remember ever liking one."
That "can" was supposed to be "can't." Sorry!
"You're not supposed to be picking a boyfriend. You're supposed to be picking the man who will do the best job as president."
Yeah, back when the slogan was "I like Ike," people meant they thought Dwight Eisenhower would be a good boyfriend.
Of course, you can pick who, among the choices will do the "best job" and that can happen without your ever actually liking any candidate. I can't think of ONE candidate for office that I have ever actually liked. As people, they are all unappealing to me. The political class in this country is dismal. All of the qualities I would want in a leader are lacking: integrity, intelligence, wisdom, courage, knowledge....
Where are John Francois Kerry and James Taylor when you need them!?!?
Of course, you can pick who, among the choices will do the "best job"
That's what your supposed to do.
and that can happen without your ever actually liking any candidate.
Exactly.
"The political class in this country is dismal. All of the qualities I would want in a leader are lacking: integrity, intelligence, wisdom, courage, knowledge...."
I understand that Chuck Schumer is extremely intelligent. I still wish he had terminal cancer. You are undoubtedly highly intelligent, but you still are apparently unable to grasp that politics is not beanbag. No, we can't all just get along. If you give them an inch, you will discover that a mile is missing. Politics is a struggle, a zero-sum game. That's why government should be limited. Anything controlled by government becomes a weapon for harming someone.
TreeJoe said...
Desantis is positioning to win a primary, which involves moving to the right.
It's not a good look. France is a good ally and a very nationalistic country. Why needlessly put them down?
France is, and has always been since supporting us during the Revolution, and ally of convenience- for them. As a nation, France is the ultimate in takers. When the USA struck Libya from bases in Britain, France refused to allow overflights over French territory to get there.
“The Left attacks DeSantis because they are threatened by a successful politician with elite credentials who does not seem to care what the other elites think of him. The amazing thing is that his victory margin in 2018 was only 0.4%. The U.S. would be a much different country if he had lost.”
Kinda like Lincoln’s defense of Grant: he fights. He fights well - better, I think, than Trump. And he has executive experience. My dream team in 2024 is Trump/DeSantis.
Why would those kids still be wearing masks? It was idiotic, from Day 1. There was never a medical or public health for kids to be masked. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. Yes, the teachers wanted it, just as they wanted to sit at home collecting paychecks. They are self entitled government workers - that’s what they do. But that doesn’t make a credible public health justification for imposing harmful (and they surely are harmful) masking (and vaccination) mandates on kids. These supposed health mandates were imposed as acknowledgments of the power that teachers have in Dem party politics. Nothing more.
The thing that I see about De Santa’s is that he sees political vulnerability in his enemies, like Trump does. Same instinct. And, no, he often isn’t nice about it. Those attacking him aren’t nice about it either. So, they attack him, he counters their strikes, he draws blood, and we cheer. What was done to Trump by the Dems, and many mainstream Republicans was far from nice too. They violated 230 years of election norms, stealing the election. Even in your state (WI) - where far more than just Biden’s 20k margin of votes were apparently illegally garnered from nursing homes from some of the most vulnerable people in your state. Just from 90 nursing homes. That was beyond not nice. We are well beyond nice now. We don’t want it, and won’t vote for it. When their terms are over, Lynn Cheney and Mitt Romney aren’t going back to DC. They will be lucky to survive the lynch mobs (Romney can just move to one of his other houses, of course). If you haven’t noticed it yet, squishes (nice Republicans) are getting walloped in primaries. And most everyone expects the election this November to be the same. We want fighters, not appeasers.
I’m curious to know if he’d asked the kids to come massless- and they showed up like that. Kids were smirking. There was so laughing. He gave them an option- if u want to wear them, by all means.
"(The Guardian).I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump." The Guardian is a leftist rag. Probably not a good idea to allow the leftmediaswine to inform your impressions on any subject, but particularly Republicans.
DeSantis and Trump share some perspectives, but DeSantis is no "version of Trump."
I don't know or care about any France comment, but there was nothing "angry" about his telling the students "you don't have to wear" the masks, etc. He certainly did not chastise them. Watch the clip.
All of the qualities I would want in a leader are lacking: integrity, intelligence, wisdom, courage, knowledge....
If you'd let me pick your economic team I would vote for you. I do not consider your youth to be a liability...
Ann: I can't think of ONE candidate for office that I have ever actually liked.
Well, that is par for the course when you are selecting someone to boss you around. No one really enjoys someone in that role, even the selected is essentially perfect. Furthermore, the sort of person motivated to be in that position typically has some personality problem as a motivation, whether it be narcissism or control issues or "save the world complex" or just corruption. All you can hope for is the person is aligned with your priorities and is effective. If you want someone you like, it is very likely you will choose poorly.
Those who know history are well aware that many, perhaps most, of the greatest and most effective leaders were deeply flawed individuals. Many of them could be accurately described as murderers or worse, and even those that did not go that far were not good husband/wife material except for a very specific pool of individuals. Some of the nicest were absolute rubbish; being nice is often one of the worst traits for a leader. Being a leader requires picking winners and losers and, when necessary, sending men and women to their death; being "mean" is part of the job description.
They'd have to go through Poland first. So that's not happening.
Ceciliahere said...This will become a talking point for the Dems. soon enough An unforced error
Criticizing France? Are you joking?
AA, re: politicians.
They're like Rumsfeld's observation about armies. Contextualizing, 'you go to the ballot booth to vote for a politician on the ballot, not a politician you might want or wish to have at a later time.'
You can always not go to the ballot box, not vote in a specific race, or write in some other person, but those options are objectively voting for the worst candidate between those who have a shot at winning - meaning the worst of the (D) and the (R).
"I can't think of ONE candidate for office that I have ever actually liked.
I liked Bob Dole. Solid citizen, funny, good voice.
Funny. My oncologist told me that they're increasingly unsure of the efficacy of the vaccines and the use of the masks. What do you want to call her, Ann?
Maybe Dr. would be accurate. And not just one of those university professor ones.
Ta: could you give me your definition of "hoodlum"? To me it's someone who attacks people, threatens them, robs them, in short, initiates force or threatens to. You know, the kind of thing statists-- whether "liberals," socialists, communists, etc--do. Could you then tell me what De Santos does that qualifies as hoodlum behavior? Is it more hoodlum-ish than, say, Biden or the Clintons? And if so, how so? Inquiring minds want to know.
.
Howard said...
When Putin is defeated, I hope Congress fires up HUAC to cancel these quislings and traitors. Cancel with extreme prejudice.
***************
Althouse, are you really going to let Howard use your blog to advocate killing people he disagrees with?
In the Second World War France folded at once when it was invaded. The French soldiers had listened to lefty propaganda about not fighting in a "capitalist war" so they surrendered, expecting to go home. Thinking, "what if they had a war and no one came?
This is bullshit first propagated by Churchill to cover up the British Army's (and his total incompetence in not coordinating effectively with the French) appalling performance in France. The French did not "fold at once", in fact they kept on fighting after the British abandoned them.
And your cute little phrase originated during the Vietnam War, which indeed was a capitalist (the U.S. didn't care if Vietnam was a democracy, only that it wasn't communist) war fought for no good reason.
Howard,
"He's...signalling a greenlight to attack France at worst."
I didn't like DeSantis' statement either. But if it makes you feel any better, I don't think a Russian invasion of France has become more likely because the governor of one of the United States of America suggested it would be easy.
I think W shows humility and goodness in the things he does to support wounded veterans.
It isn’t a white thing- it’s a privilege thing… he can’t really help that, unless he had chucked it all.
Ann Althouse said...
The political class in this country is dismal. All of the qualities I would want in a leader are lacking: integrity, intelligence, wisdom, courage, knowledge....
3/3/22, 11:52 AM
You do read the NYT and Washington Post. I have my own reservations about the morality of all but one President, and they all have judgment issues to one degree or the next, but none of those men (and they are all men) would tolerate the notion that you are their superior. Donald Trump would be particularly scathing, while Barack Obama would shut you down with a stare. Joe Biden's a vegetable, but then no one would let you near him.
At least you might have a shot at face time with them, though. I'm smart enough to realize most would be totally uninterested in anything but a perfunctory handshake from me- and I certainly wouldn't want to be trapped in an airport with most of them. President Trump might give me thirty seconds of time before politely but firmly reminding me that any new advisers would have to prove their loyalty by punching out Kevin Williamson. Something like that, anyways. Of course, for face time with Trump I'd carve Williamson up real nice.
Lol, that was still putting a nice sheen on it.
The French are preparing their surrender documents right now, and the Russians aren't even in Kiev yet.
France isn't Paris.
Ann, you'd have to look back at the elections of George Washington to see nearly unanimous support of the President. His personal qualities were evident. But the election of 1796 (J. Adams and T. Jefferson) was as rancorous and nasty as nearly any election in American history. Your wish for a leader with all the qualities you described is a chimera. People have been this way for the entire history of homo sapiens. Just ask the Neanderthals.
Who would be so brazen as to tell high school kids they don't have to wear a mask, then turn right around and note many countries would not stand up to foreign military aggression, notably the notorious surrender monkey France?
Why, Hitler...of course.
The clip of him with the students was funny. Talk about thin skinned. He was REALLY angry and he told them to take off their masks. So much for choice. An authoritarian at heart after my heart. No doubt he will do well if he runs in 2024.
Meanwhile...the US military is about to undergo mandatory transgender pronoun training.
As for La Resistance -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR8DjbyOby4 See at 5:00 - 6:00. The resistance played a key role following the Normandy landing. No doubt DeSantis would have gotten a prime desk job with the Vichy regime.
Why do you believe The Guardian? I haven’t tracked down the France quote yet but the students one is bogus. He didn’t react angrily. He just said that no one needed to wear masks anymore unless they wanted to.
Althouse, do you really believe that reading an article from The Guardian is going to give you anything resembling an objective view of Ron DeSantis? He is the mortal enemy of left-wing "journalists." He was hardly "angry." He just told the kids that the masks don't do anything, that COVID is now officially over, and they don't have to wear the masks anymore if they don't want to. Dissing the French is probably not helpful, if he actually did, since they are NATO allies, but I have my doubts about whether he actually said what The Guardian claims.
So the Nazification of DeSantis begins in earnest.
Gee. Never saw that coming.
France is a good ally
No. They are not. Even going back so far as forcing our aircraft to fly around the Iberian Peninsula - when bombing Gaddafi in '86 - as opposed to flying over their precious airspace.
And let's not forget their actions during both Gulf Wars.
Never trust The Guardian on US politics.
The words on the page don't convey like the video what a jerk DeSantis was with the high school kids, theatrically expressing his disapproval of masks, and jabbing his finger at them at close range while berating them. He must have just read a poll showing him way behind Trump. And he must have been the most unbearable sports jock at his own high school.
Criticizing France? Are you joking?
Remember when that Hillary Clinton supporter/staffer at the Spanish TV network adjacent to Trump Doral cooked up that Trump offense that was supposed to finish his political career?
This Desantis thing feels just like that…and it will be just as successful…
It's a long long way to Tipperary.
There wasn't a single Republican Congressman or Senator that had the courage to talk to the protesters in the Capital Hill building on Jan 6th. They all ran off to safety except for Adamn Kinzinger who in his own words, locked himself in his office and took out a pistol to shoot any protester that "came through the door".
AA: "The political class in this country is dismal. All of the qualities I would want in a leader are lacking: integrity, intelligence, wisdom, courage, knowledge...."
Bingo.
Same goes for the media.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR8DjbyOby4 See at 5:00 - 6:00. The resistance played a key role following the Normandy landing. No doubt DeSantis would have gotten a prime desk job with the Vichy regime.
Until Normandy most of the Resistance was communist I can recommend some books but you won't read them.
This is bullshit first propagated by Churchill to cover up the British Army's (and his total incompetence in not coordinating effectively with the French) appalling performance in France. The French did not "fold at once", in fact they kept on fighting after the British abandoned them.
Where can I get a copy of your book, Field Marshal? My reading about WWII must be incomplete.
Yeah, back when the slogan was "I like Ike," people meant they thought Dwight Eisenhower would be a good boyfriend.
That was a good slogan. So, when Ike's VP ran for POTUS in 1960, they had buttons made that read "I Like Dick".
My stepfather had recently converted to the Republican Party and pinned that button on his lapel. I was 7 years old and didn't get the joke. Apparently neither did he because he was a staunch anti-Communist and thought Nixon was the ideal candidate.
We all know that every Republican presidential candidate becomes the "worst thing since Hitler" once he gains national prominence and threatens the Media Democrats.
It will be DeSantis' turn for the next two years. We will get a steady stream of articles showing what a lout he is. At some point, Althouse will be annoyed by the utter silliness, even if she does not like the guy.
They will focus on convincing well intentioned, liberal White women not to vote for him. The "not suitable for boyfriend" stuff probably works for the young ones. The "not suitable for husband" stuff works on the middle aged ones. The "not suited for supporting me in my old age" doesn't always work, so it will be the usual "Republicans will cancel Medicare and Social Security".
It is so utterly predictable.
TreeJoe said...
France is a good ally
Oooh, that's funny!
Please, share with us the last time France acted as an actual ally to the US. What did they do? When did they do it?
France pulled their military out of NATO's integrated command structure in 1966.
What is the MOST "ally-like" thing they've done since then?
France's population is close to twice that of Poland's. It's economy is 5x that of Polands.
So, when's the last time that France provided the US as much support as Poland did, not on a relative basis but just on an absolute basis?
You are right: France is a very nationalistic country. But what that translates to is they're a bunch of international users who always take, never give, and can never be trusted to keep an agreement when it's not in their short term interest to do so
Whatever else they are,the French have gone full throttle with nuclear power. I respect their energy policies.
Blogger readering said...
The words on the page don't convey like the video what a jerk DeSantis was with the high school kids,
Lefty panty twist.
Meh. DeSantis is ex military and the American military has despised the French since WWII. As have the English and most other militaries. The French fed their best and brightest into a meat grinder in WWI and their socialist teachers taught the sons of the lesser men who survived by hiding behind bureaucracy that fighting is bad, even in defense of your own country. Which is why France rolled over for Hitler. This is an historical and verifiable fact.
Snarking about it was an unforced error on DeSantis’s part and I hope he learns from it. IF he actually pressured the kids in masks that was unforced error too. I haven’t watched it (is there video?) and joking and encouraging kids to do something the Left thinks is verboten would of course be twisted by the media. Neither of these things is a deal breaker for me.
He was REALLY angry and he told them to take off their masks. So much for choice.
Below is the actual quote,dumbass. I'll bold the part you need to stick in your ear.
"You do not have to wear those masks. Please take them off. Honestly, it's not doing anything. We've gotta stop with this Covid theater. So if you wanna wear it, fine, but this is ridiculous."
Got that? If not, read it again. And again.
Generally like DeSantis, but that is a stupid thing to say. The whole myth of French weakness and cowardice should be abandoned. The thing started when the French very wisely chose not to join the USA in invading Iraq. As to losing to the Germans, in 1940, 82 years ago, there was no one on Earth who was going to be beat the Wehrmacht at the top of their game, certainly not the Americans who had a pathetic, tiny, outdated army at the time.
"I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump."
Whatever gave you the idea that people want that? Palatable to who? People that won't vote for him?
Reading authors with long careers, guys like C.P. Snow and John LeCarre, it becomes obvious in their later works that they're either insulated from the current reality or no longer have the creative nimbleness to portray it in their works. What is supposed to be 1970 reads like 1935, 2010 like 1965. Don't let that happen to you, Althouse. It isn't 1992.
People who care about elegance and their palate are a big part of the problem.
"Politics is a struggle, a zero-sum game. That's why government should be limited. Anything controlled by government becomes a weapon for harming someone."
This appears to be a difficult concept for some to accept- even those who otherwise appear to be intelligent and reasonable.
I like DeSantis. At this point, he's the only one being talked about that I'd vote for in 2024. Although, if Biden's presidency continues getting worse and worse, who knows?
I don't know the whole context, but the France comment was unnecessary and hurts the point I think he was trying to make. Countries need strong leaders and people who believe in their country.
Although, sometimes you're just screwed or saved by geography. Ukraine has alot working against it and the US has it easier across the ocean with only Canada and Mexico on its borders.
I watched the video, I wouldn't call it angry, but annoyed. I don't see it as directed as the kids, but at the continued "theatre" and not wanting the kids feeling forced.
The France comment could possibly be bad for diplomacy, but the other is progressives looking for every chance to rile up their supporters with outrage. Like DeSantis being labeled as a racist for using the phrase "monkey up" when his opponent was black.
Frog-bashing is a surefire winner in Amurka. It appeals to people who claim that there were 100 million Frenchmen in WWII, and other historical illiterates.
Trust the French to pursue their interests, and work from there. Like in the mid-1770s, when it was French promises (and backchannel support) that forced the American rebels to declare independence and try to set up as a real country, and not just nibble away and negotiate for a better deal inside the Empire, which was one possibility.
Without French (Spanish, Dutch) support of money and military power, there probably would never have been a Patriot victory.
Saratoga was NOT the decisive battle in that regard--the commitment by the Patriots to no-surrender had to come before, otherwise the French could stay home entirely, even forgoing the sheer fun of twisting the lion's tail.
Didn't DeSantis say exactly what the world has been saying for 5 days?
Nobody believed Ukraine would withstand the Russia assault. Taking a swipe at one of the elites, is not nice.
But I'm tired of playing nice,and losing. Much prefer mean tweets, peace and prosperity.
The rest of the story. Media is looking for a smear that will stick. Bush was an idiot, Regan a shallow Hollywood actor. Romney gave his employees cancer/evil capitalist.
Who ever comes out of the primaries will meet exactly the same attack Trump faced/faces. A full on coordinated attack from the deep state/media. If they are polite, they will lose.
And he must have been the most unbearable sports jock at his own high school.
Bitterness for decades at not being part of the cool crowd in H.S. is not a good look. It might be healthy to put that one behind you.
Pretty sure you thought Obama was suave and sophisticated, Althouse.
Pretty sure you liked him quite a bit- at the time ;0)
stonethrower said...
People who care about elegance and their palate are a big part of the problem.
=======
but do they approve !of! their ?inferiors? getting cheese from the government.
A full on coordinated attack from the deep state/media. If they are polite, they will lose.
=======
so what is the point of being rude to le peuple français?
They'd have to go through Poland first. So that's not happening.
My favorite scene from "The Battle of Britain".
One can argue about France and France-bashing forever. For me, what De Santis said was unnecessary and feeds the suspicion that like GW Bush or Marco Rubio he has "jock brain" and will say and do stupid things and thus undercut his effectiveness. But as this is the first time I've heard him say something like this maybe the country would be lucky if he were president.
Althouse comments, where I can often come for rudimentary health and clothing advice from some who don't feel up to contributing more to the topic at hand.
Narr said...
Trust the French to pursue their interests, and work from there.
Yes, trust the French to have no honor, no decency, to be complete and utter users who will screw you over in a nanosecond for short term advantage.
What part of that is it that you find attractive, Narr?
"I'm setting aside my notion that DeSantis could be the more palatable, elegant version of Trump."
Why would you ever have wanted a "more palatable, elegant version of" a New York racketeer? Especially when said racketeer pledges undying friendship with "Pootie-Poot" Putin?
iowan2 said...
But I'm tired of playing nice,and losing. Much prefer mean tweets, peace and prosperity.
The rest of the story. Media is looking for a smear that will stick. . . Regan a shallow Hollywood actor.
I read in the media that Ronaldus Magnus tore down the Berlin wall and blew up the Soviet Union. Perhaps you missed that.
What Bruce Hayden said.
He is wrong about France and largely right about the masks.
But, neither statement was necessary. He could have stuck to praising the Ukrainians and said something more objective about masking, without referring to the people in attendance. The point would have been made, and, if anyone was "offended", he could have stood his ground on the facts. Instead, the discussion has shifted to the tone. Unforced error.
We live in an undignified age. Biden makes statements like this about once/week. He probably gets a pass because of his cognitive impairments. DeSantis has no such excuse. Trump is obviously the standard bearer for this level of discourse. H. Clinton is also a practitioner. Harris, too, though she has trouble forming these statements coherently or with any punch. I could go on about current politicians. Obama, W. Bush, and even B. Clinton seemed (to my recollection) to be more careful, though they sometimes slipped.
But, prior to that, while the cross-partisan discourse may have been harsh, politicians were generally very careful about needlessly insulting outsiders, including especially voters and foreign citizens. While not monotonic, there has been a clear trend away from this over the last 2-3 decades. Our culture has degraded.
The incentives of social media, the news cycle, and the general culture are now such that dignity has less political value and riling up the base has more. At root, the American education system has prioritized emotion over reason. Tribalism rules.
Our host longs for the better days of the past. She thinks the ship has not completely sailed and that there is chance for dignity to return to our political discourse. I am not so optimistic.
Yea, I can really see Ron DeSantis standing up to Putin.
Patton once said he'd rather have a German division in front of him, than a French division behind him.
Yep. Thank goodness we've got elegant Gropey Joe. And Justin Blackface. And Boris Blockhead. And those wonder twins in Australia and New Zealand. Yep, so elegant.
Greg, try not to be such a bore.
"I read in the media that Ronaldus Magnus tore down the Berlin wall and blew up the Soviet Union. Perhaps you missed that."
Proof the media lies.
Ann Althouse said...
The political class in this country is dismal. All of the qualities I would want in a leader are lacking: integrity, intelligence, wisdom, courage, knowledge....
I agree with this indictment of the political class in general, but I disagree that the DeSantis clip indicates that he doesn’t have any of those qualities. In fact, I argue it exemplifies all of them. This brainless masking of low risk young people is unscientific and politically motivated, and these days it takes intelligence, wisdom, knowledge and courage to not just submit, and stand up to the media who will crucify you for dissent. And he has the integrity to behave consistently with what he believes, and says. Contrast with the many politicians on the left who claim masks are super effective but keep getting busted violating their own rules. Or politicians like Stacy Abrams who is happy to be photographed maskless in front of a room of masked little schoolkids. I’ll take politicians like DeSantis over those control freak creeps any day.
Jim - Are you familiar with the term "body language." Hard to see that from the written word. He was so upset he was almost shaking. Watch the video.
It is really interesting to read the comments in this thread that (correctly) point out we should understand France has a historical narrative and national interests that may or may not intersect ours, and our policies and statements towards them should be informed by a realistic estimation of those, and some of the attitudes towards Russia expressed on other threads.
gadfly said...
Especially when said racketeer pledges undying friendship with "Pootie-Poot" Putin?
Hmm Gay baiting and lies, just another day ending in "y" for gadfly.
President trump, unlike President's Obama and Biden*, opposed Russias moves and kept Putin contained.
So, I guess that reality is why you have to constantly lie.
Poor Narr, claims I'm a "bore" for pointing out what an ass he is.
Since he is being an ass, he can't actually defend what I attacked
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