Althouse: "Rittenhouse Jury Is Said to Reach a Decision" ... NOT GUILTY on all counts.

November 19, 2021

"Rittenhouse Jury Is Said to Reach a Decision" ... NOT GUILTY on all counts.

The NYT reports.

236 comments:

«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 236 of 236

Bruce Hayden said...: “I can see where you are coming from, I think he showed bad judgment being there with the weapon, but under the law, he was facing life in prison. But if he weren't armed, and still provoked the rioters by trying to put out fires and prevent fires, he would still likely have been attacked and possibly killed. So his only "reasonable" course of action was to abide by the decision of those in power to stand idly by while his friends' business was destroyed”

I don’t see Rittenhouse as the type of anti racist, anti Marxist, that the others there carrying AR-15s (and often in ballistic plate armor). They were there to protect the community from the violence, make a statement of support of the community, and nothing else. Rittenhouse, on the other hand, very much appears to have been their primarily to do good. He had helped scrub graffiti earlier in the day, was putting out dumpster fires, and trying to administer first aid. That he was not a trained EMT is irrelevant - his training was better than nothing, which is what they otherwise had. The gun very much appeared to be completely for his personal protection. He carried what I would have carried in his position that night - a legal length (very likely 16”) AR-15 (except maybe a bull pup semiauto shotgun). I’m not in his position - I am over 3x the age where I can own a handgun, and have a clean record, so with my CCLs I can carry one concealed in most states in the Union. He couldn’t. He did the next best thing he legally could. Note that Lefty was carrying a handgun concealed, but was apparently doing so illegally.

As for the debate about his AR-15. The prosecution originally charged him with illegal possession of it. That charge was dismissed by the judge before charging the jury. The issue about its length was never really germane. It was almost assuredly >= 16” long, the shortest rifle/carbine you can own under the NFA without an ATF tax stamp. You can own shorter AR-15s (and I do) w/o a tax stamp if they qualify as handguns. This requires that certain conditions be met (e.g. no real stock, no vertical handgrip, etc). The military M4 Carbine has, I believe, a 14” barrel, but they are not constrained by the NFA. You just don’t see barrels that close to legal length in the civilian world. Instead, for AR pistols, 10”, 7.5”, etc are common.

What was important was his age and where the gun was. He was 17 at the time. That meant that in most states, he could own a 16” rifle/carbine or an 18” shotgun. But I don’t think that he could buy it. He could arguably possess it in WI, but not in nearby IL, where he lived, because he didn’t have, nor could he get (because of his age), the required IL permit. He got around that by never bringing the gun into IL. The place where things got sketchy was that the prosecutors charged him with illegally possessing the gun, based on their novel Lawfare type creative (mis)interpretation of the WI gun laws, as they applied to 16-17 year olds. Suffice it to say that they were effectively trying to convert an “And” to an “Or” (or visa versa) and trying to claim that it was illegal because he hadn’t had the WI hunter safety class required of 16-17 year olds to hunt (except he wasn’t hunting).

The defense moved to dismiss the charge, because there was no evidence to support it. The problem arose because the WI model jury instructions for this charge didn’t fully track the statute, and instead made it sound like he had violated the law. The prosecution wanted the stock instructions. The defense wanted them modified to track the statutes. When it came down to the wire, and the judge was readying his jury instructions, he decided that there were no questions of fact remaining, and if he went with the prosecution, he would likely get reversed on appeal, either because the instructions didn’t track the statutes, or their novel interpretation didn’t give fair warning to Rittenhouse, thus violating Due Process. So he dismissed the charge.; 11/20/21, 6:56 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: “ Might be the worst analogy in the history of the internet.”

I think that you are in denial, that the races of the killer of Ashlii Babbitt, and his victim were irrelevant. The shooter was black, and his victim was white. There was no evidence that she was a reasonably imminent threat to causing death or great bodily injury to anyone, and esp not to her killer, surrounded by and behind other LEOs. He was twice her size. She had visibly armed LEOs around her. She was unarmed. Congress may purport to have the power to protect the sanctity of Pelosi’s private entry chamber with deadly force. They don’t.; 11/20/21, 7:06 AM
Achilles said...: The Crack Emcee said...

Drago,

He wouldn't have needed a self-defense excuse if he had been at home.

It is OK to tell a white boy to stay at home.; 11/20/21, 9:38 AM
RigelDog said...: Crack said: "I know he was defending himself, but I also know he wouldn't have needed to do it if he hadn't been there."

I'd like clarification. Are you simply saying that he did a really dumb thing by inserting himself into a rioting situation? AGREED.
Or are you saying that making a stupid naive decision to enter into a dangerous situation means that you give up your right to self-defense?; 11/20/21, 10:05 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Butkus51 said...

"Crack Emcee is a parasite. Nothing more."

So were the cops when they told Kyle to "Go Home!"; 11/20/21, 10:50 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: effinayright said...
The Crack Emcee said...

"Essentially you are arguing that the convicted felons who participated in the RIOTS and ARSON at that "protest" had a superior right to be there,..."

No, I'm not "essentially" saying that - you're now the second fanatacist to decide your thoughts are mine - just because you make it up.

How dumb white peiople are. I can see the "logic" used to kill Indians.; 11/20/21, 10:52 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Blair said...

"To all those vile PoSs that are wondering what would happen if Rittenhouse was black: wonder no more. That MF who shot Ashli Babbitt didn't get charged with a damned thing, so now you know exactly what would happen. Thanks for playing though."

Oh yeah - that one case washes away the 250 years of bullshit whites pulled before it.; 11/20/21, 10:54 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

"Kyle Rittenhouse didn't show up to commit violent acts, the rioters did."

And that precludes any of you from understanding NONE OF THEM should've been there. They were ALL in the wrong.

That's why bad things happened.

By the way, like Kyle, I'm now a trained EMT simply because I say so when carrying a gun with me.; 11/20/21, 10:57 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: RigelDog said...

I'd like clarification. Are you simply saying that he did a really dumb thing by inserting himself into a rioting situation? AGREED.
Or are you saying that making a stupid naive decision to enter into a dangerous situation means that you give up your right to self-defense?

The first - and nothing more. I like Kyle. I think he's a good kid who put himself in a bad situation. I also think he's suffered enough from what he did. I think probation was the way to go.

Acquittal means he did nothing wrong, and that's a lie. He killed people. He lied about his credentials before killing people. He got in over his head - which a kid can do.

This all-or-nothing defense white people are erecting is gross injustice - even to Kyle.

They're teaching the wrong lessons to this country.; 11/20/21, 11:00 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Chris Lopes said...

"He also wouldn't have needed to if the men who attacked him weren't there. Funny thing that logic."

It was not a job for a 17 year old with a gun, lying about his credentials.; 11/20/21, 11:01 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Gahrie said...

"He wouldn't have needed to be there if the police had been doing their job."

He didn't "need" to be there - he wanted to be there. The cops (who were there) told him to "Go Home!"; 11/20/21, 11:02 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: TRISTRAM said...

"The deceased and lefty would still be alive and whole if they’d been at home instead of ‘mostly peaceful’ rioting."

You guys only understand how this works if people are on the left - not the right.

Revealing.; 11/20/21, 11:04 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: You guys really are "manifest destiny" in action.

It's disgusting.; 11/20/21, 11:05 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Achilles said...

"It is OK to tell a white boy to stay at home."

It's common sense - which is in short supply these days.; 11/20/21, 11:06 AM
Gospace said...: "Viciously attacked by psychotic sociopathic felons, child molesters and women beaters" he never would have encountered if he had been at home.

And they would have instead attacked and killed an unarmed victim.

Which outcome is better? Dead criminals or dead victim at the hands of criminals?; 11/20/21, 11:07 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Bob Boyd said...
I wish him luck, as he will need it in today's world.

Me too. His ordeal is far from over.

A full acquittal did him no favors. He should've got probation with no jail time. Now he (and you morons) are allowed to think lying and killing are OK as long as your intentions are good - manifest destiny.; 11/20/21, 11:09 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: RigelDog said...

"Are you saying that making a stupid naive decision to enter into a dangerous situation means that you give up your right to self-defense?"

No, that's a leap of logic, and I don't take those leaps.

These guys, who will read something and then declare "So you're essentially saying,..." THEY take those kinds of leaps.; 11/20/21, 11:11 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: "When white people see the American flag, they see American history. When black people see the American flag, we see American history, too."

- Michael Che, who's brother is a cop.; 11/20/21, 11:13 AM
mikee said...: Riot control is a well-understood subject, using techniques from verbal commands to deadly force. Follow the science, I say. One riot, one Ranger, they used to say in Texas.; 11/20/21, 11:56 AM
Skippy Tisdale said...: Hey Cracker Emcee take your little faux noir act on the road an get back to us when you've got all the bugs worked out. It might help to rewatch all of the Law & Order episodes with Lorraine Toussaint as Shambala Green.; 11/20/21, 12:03 PM
Nichevo said...: The Crack Emcee said...
Blair said...

"To all those vile PoSs that are wondering what would happen if Rittenhouse was black: wonder no more. That MF who shot Ashli Babbitt didn't get charged with a damned thing, so now you know exactly what would happen. Thanks for playing though."

Oh yeah - that one case washes away the 250 years of bullshit whites pulled before it.

11/20/21, 10:54 AM

I usually hope for better from you, Cracky, and lately had been more and more often disappointed, but since I haven't really been around here ever since I'll House band comments, I don't know what you've been up to.

I've been ignoring most of the crap you've been writing today on this, but as for the above. Do you understand that you are not going to be permitted any 250 years of, as Ron O'Neal/Youngblood Preacher would say, old-time n-gger bullshit, to make up for whatever makes you feel bad? Do you understand that two wrongs don't make a right? That you don't get a bunch of free Ashlis to make up for...what, exactly?

Cuz I never thought I'd say this, because I couldn't have believed that people like you thought it, but if that's where you're at, then just have the race war and be done with it. Spoiler alert, you will lose. I don't like my odds either, but people who are rooting for Farnham's Freehold want stopping early.

Coming back to what people should and should not do. That shithead supposedly jogging around the construction site in Timberlands, should he have been there and done what he did?; 11/20/21, 12:36 PM
Nichevo said...: As for Howard the Coward's "discretion is the better part of valor," that is one of those Shakespeare quotes, like "let's kill all the lawyers," that you probably want to unpack a little before you swallow it whole.

Why the fuck did you ever join the Marines? Cuz pretty much 100% of you showed by doing so, a judgment as bad as you attribute to Kyle Rittenhouse (though not to those who attacked him).

Do us a favor, if you ever wake up to the shameful existence that is yours, and decide to end it, please have your lawyer drop us a note. Then again, we probably won't miss you.; 11/20/21, 12:41 PM
TRISTRAM said...: Blogger The Crack Emcee said...
TRISTRAM said...

"The deceased and lefty would still be alive and whole if they’d been at home instead of ‘mostly peaceful’ rioting."

You guys only understand how this works if people are on the left - not the right.

Revealing.

---

Was actually referring to the permanent bicep injury ...; 11/20/21, 1:12 PM
RigelDog said...: The Crack Emcee quoted me and replied: "RigelDog said...

"Are you saying that making a stupid naive decision to enter into a dangerous situation means that you give up your right to self-defense?" }}}}

No, that's a leap of logic, and I don't take those leaps. -----

Glad to hear that's your thinking; it's why I asked for clarification.
That leaves me to ask, what DO you mean by pointing out that Kyle shouldn't have entered into a dangerous situation, as far as addressing whether or not he was attacked and then was entitled under the law to self-defense?
I couldn't agree more that he shouldn't have been there, he had no idea how horrible and blood-thirsty and irrational mobs can get, obviously.
In case anyone wonders, I have run the scenario through my mind from the point of view of, say, a 17 year old black male (I'll call him Kevin) who went to support the protesters but otherwise acted exactly as Kyle did. Offering medical help, refusing to engage in violent destruction, putting out fires. If some hypothetical anti-BLM adult males charged him after saying they would kill him, grabbed his gun, and fired a shot, then of course Kevin would have been justified in shooting the maniac who was charging him. Then when other anti-BLM's chased Kevin down the street, throwing chunks of concrete that caused him to fall, and then bashed him in the head with a skateboard while another approached with a gun, pointed it, lowered it until Kevin lowered his rifle, and then brought the handgun back up to Kevin's head, Kevin would also be entitled to use his weapon against these attackers.
Absolutely.; 11/20/21, 1:48 PM
Drago said...: Cracked Emcee: "A full acquittal did him no favors. He should've got probation with no jail time. Now he (and you morons) are allowed to think lying and killing are OK as long as your intentions are good - manifest destiny."

A full acquittal did him all kinds of favors after a corrupt prosecution.

Again, you're a dolt.

And you still don't have the first clue about the laws of self-defense. Still.

After all this time.

When it would be so easy to clue yourself in.

That you don't speaks volumes.; 11/20/21, 2:16 PM
Chris Lopes said...: "Acquittal means he did nothing wrong, and that's a lie."

No. Acquittal means he didn't do anything he was charged with. That (according to the jury) is the truth. Being dangerously naive isn't a crime in Wisconsin.; 11/20/21, 3:00 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: The Crack Emcee said...
He wouldn't have needed a self-defense excuse if he had been at home.
...
Drago: "Hey, I get it. You want the streets abandoned to violent left wing mobs and businesses not protected."
No, you don't get it. You obviously just make it up in your head and assume that's what other people think too - and then put it on them is their idea.
...
I know he was defending himself, but I also know he wouldn't have needed to do it if he hadn't been there.

If you understand self defense law enough to know he was legally defending himself, why are you demanding he be punished?
That's some sick shit, man

And Drago's right, and you're full of bullshit.
Kyle was out that night to try to prevent more destruction in a town he was part of.
That is a good, laudable, moral thing to do.

For you to say "he shouldn't have been out there" is for you to say "no one should have tried to stop the rioters from trashing Kenosha.

And that is sick, twisted utter bullshit.

The good citizen thing to do is that whenever and wherever the Left threatens to riot, the good people should be armed, out in public, ready to kill any of the potential rioters who become actual rioters.

Start a fire? Get shot
Smash a window? Get shot

And if the Democrat running far too many places don't want that to happen, they're going to have to do what Evers did last night in Kenosha, and call out sufficient State power, and give it sufficient orders, so that the State stops the rioters before the good citizens have to do it.

I don't care how upset you are by the cops shooting another thug who thinks that resisting arrest is cool, if you riot, you should die; 11/20/21, 4:04 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Bruce Hayden said...
I don’t see Rittenhouse as the type of anti racist, anti Marxist, that the others there carrying AR-15s (and often in ballistic plate armor). They were there to protect the community from the violence, make a statement of support of the community, and nothing else.

Yeah, learning about those people during the trial really made my heart swell with pride, to know that America still has people willing to show up.

I'm a bit more cold-blooded: I'm not willing to show up in a place where the idiots voted in Democrat rules who will refuse to protect them from the thugs. But if they come to my town, I will be there (hopefully in a sniper position where no one can see me).

Rittenhouse, on the other hand, very much appears to have been their primarily to do good. He had helped scrub graffiti earlier in the day, was putting out dumpster fires, and trying to administer first aid. That he was not a trained EMT is irrelevant - his training was better than nothing, which is what they otherwise had.

Yeah, he seems to be a very nice kid. Far nicer than I am.

As for the debate about his AR-15. The prosecution originally charged him with illegal possession of it. That charge was dismissed by the judge before charging the jury. The issue about its length was never really germane.

Actually, it was.
https://gregquark.blogspot.com/2020/09/wi-law-about-16-17-year-olds-carry.html
(c) This section applies only to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593

941.28 is the ban on short barreled rifles / shotguns. So they had to prove that didn't apply
29.593 Requirement for certificate of accomplishment to obtain hunting approval (Doesn't apply to those not hunting)
29.304 Restrictions on hunting and use of firearms by persons under 16 years of age.

So "short barreled" was the only way they could nail him, and why that argument mattered.

The place where things got sketchy was that the prosecutors charged him with illegally possessing the gun, based on their novel Lawfare type creative (mis)interpretation of the WI gun laws, as they applied to 16-17 year olds. Suffice it to say that they were effectively trying to convert an “And” to an “Or” (or visa versa) and trying to claim that it was illegal because he hadn’t had the WI hunter safety class required of 16-17 year olds to hunt (except he wasn’t hunting).

Yeah, for that they should be tossed out of office; 11/20/21, 4:21 PM
Gospace said...: DiD Kyle lie when he said he an EMT? If he had said he was a licensed EMT the answer would be yes. He was certainly trained as a first responder. He was a lifeguard. As a BSA lifeguard have to have evidence of current training in American Red Cross First Aid and ARC CPR/AED for the Professional Rescuer or equivalent. Among other rigorous requirements. The Red Cross requires the same but less rigorous requirements. Reports are he was a police cadet of some sort. I can guarantee he got additional first aid training there.

So is EMT a term that can legally only be used by licensed certified EMTs? Or can someone say “I’m an EMT.” if they have a solid background and training in first aid and emergency procedures rather than explaining “I’ve been trained in first and and (list similar training).

The basic rule is- don’t perform any procedure you’re not qualified for.

This is actually a real problem and has been addressed in real court cases and at least one episode of NCIS. Navy Corpsmen are much better trained than those of other services. And an independent duty corpsman even more so. Yet all the other services can apparently be licensed immediately as EMTs with their military training. Navy Corpsmen are required to take a licensed EMT course in order to be certified. Corpsmen have been prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license after saving lives because they used procedures the Navy taught them to save lives of civilian accident victims. Prosecutors are asses.; 11/20/21, 4:39 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: “ So "short barreled" was the only way they could nail him, and why that argument mattered.”

But that was essentially my point. The gun almost had to be at least 16” long, since it was purchased through an FFL without an SBR tax stamp. And, with the butt stock it has on it, it couldn’t be an AR pistol. Besides, you just don’t see, say, 14” AR pistols. There just isn’t a market for them. 10”, 7.5”, and maybe even 12”, but not 14-15”. And that barrel was very clearly longer than 12-13”. Definitely 16”. Maybe even 18”. Besides, if Rittenhouse did have an AR pistol, it would have been just as illegal as if he had had Lefty’s Glock. He was under 18, so couldn’t legally have had either one.

They may have, at one point misunderstood gun laws, but that wasn’t what the state was charging him with, when it went to court. That charge, that got dismissed involved the deliberate Lawfare type misinterpretation of the gun law in WI that allows 16-17 year olds to have long guns. Yes, it wouldn’t have been a long gun under that statute, if it’s barrel had been under 16” long. But if it had had a shorter barrel, it would have been an SBR under the NFA either, requiring an ATF tax stamp. Same (stupid) 16” barrel length rule at both the state and federal level.

The misdemeanor weapons charge always looked fishy to me, along with those capital felony charges. I think that it may have had something to do with the prosecution trying to strip Rittenhouse of his innocence, and, thus, to claim that he wasn’t entitled to assert a defense of self defense, if he was guilty of the gun crime. Except that isn’t how self defense law works.; 11/20/21, 5:08 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: “So is EMT a term that can legally only be used by licensed certified EMTs? Or can someone say “I’m an EMT.””

I don’t think that it matters. The prosecution was just throwing mud there. Rittenhouse was clearly there, among other things, to do first responder first aid, if needed. Direct pressure over a wound, instead of letting someone bleed out. That sort of thing. The sort of thing that he would have had to have known to be a lifeguard.; 11/20/21, 5:15 PM
Lurker21 said...: The only thing I got out of the whole mess is that everybody in Wisconsin is still German: Grosskreuz, Rosenbaum, Huber, Schroeder, Binger, Rittenhouse, Althouse.; 11/20/21, 8:25 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: RigelDog said...

“What DO you mean by pointing out that Kyle shouldn't have entered into a dangerous situation, as far as addressing whether or not he was attacked and then was entitled under the law to self-defense?”

He is responsible for him being attacked - he walked into it. A mature person wouldn’t. But in our society he’s still a child, and I always side with the child. He’s got PTSD. I saw it, even if LeBron James didn’t. That’s enough. Give him probation, because he did kill two people, but allow him to cope with the magnitude of the rest.

“I couldn't agree more that he shouldn't have been there, he had no idea how horrible and blood-thirsty and irrational mobs can get, obviously.”

He’s still a kid.

He had every right to defend himself - we all do - but he never should’ve been there to do so.; 11/21/21, 1:16 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: I just found a little back-up for my position.

Maybe it will make more sense, to you, when it's spoken instead of written down.; 11/21/21, 1:21 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: The Crack Emcee said...
He is responsible for him being attacked - he walked into it. A mature person wouldn’t.

Bullshit. There were multiple mature adults, ex Army /Marine, who were there, armed and ready for trouble, just like Kyle.

The only difference is that the scumbag attackers thought Kyle was weak, so they attacked him.

Turns out they were wrong; 11/21/21, 1:25 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: The Class Traitor said...
The Crack Emcee said...
He is responsible for him being attacked - he walked into it. A mature person wouldn’t.

Bullshit. There were multiple mature adults, ex Army /Marine, who were there, armed and ready for trouble, just like Kyle

You moron, being in the military does not make you mature.; 11/21/21, 9:40 PM