So many conflicting interests there. But obviously there are a lot of wolves, and presumably the endangered species category needs to be restricted to animals that are quite scarce, not animals that we love. Here you have an animal that is loved — even regarded as sacred. The hunters probably love the animal in a hunterly way. Some people hate or fear wolves, and some farmers and ranchers have anti-wolf economic interests. I have no idea what the solution is, but I think I'd recommend rationality over sentimentality. It may be rational to defer — to some extent — to the tribes' belief in the sacredness of the wolves and that corresponding reverence for wolves that lives in the hearts of some of the people.
March 3, 2021
"Hunters in Wisconsin killed more than 200 wolves last week, far exceeding the state’s limit as they scrambled to take advantage of Trump-era wildlife rules..."
"... that they worry may be tightened by the Biden administration.
At least 216 wolves were killed in less than 60 hours, exceeding the state quota of 119 and prompting Wisconsin to end what was meant to be a one-week hunt four days early.... Environmentalists... said the large number of wolves killed in such a short time underscored the need for President Biden to put the gray wolf back on the list of animals protected under the Endangered Species Act. 'These animals were killed using packs of dogs, snares and leg-hold traps,' Kitty Block, chief executive of the Humane Society of the United States, said on Tuesday. 'It was a race to kill these animals in the most cruel ways.'... The resurgence of wolves in certain parts of the country has been called a success story for conservationists. But as their numbers grew, ranchers have had to contend with wolves’ appetite for cattle and sheep. Conservationists counter that wolves keep deer, elk and other species in check and therefore help prevent more vegetation loss.... Hunter Nation said the large number of wolves hunted in such a short period of time showed that the population had 'significantly increased.' The group said that in 2014, it took two months for hunters to kill about 100 wolves. 'This season it took just three days!'... Richard M. Esenberg, a lawyer for Hunter Nation, said it was misleading for animal rights activists to claim that hunters had killed double the number of wolves allowed by the state. The state had set a quota of 200 wolves, with 119 for hunters who applied for permits with the department and 81 set aside to the Ojibwe Tribes under their treaty rights....
But the tribes consider wolves to be sacred and made a deliberate decision not to hunt them, said Dylan Jennings, a spokesman for the Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission, which represents the tribes. The tribes saw their allocation as a way to conserve a large number of the wolves — not to give hunters more animals to kill, he said."
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There would be plenty of room for Dr. Suess to maneuver here, if he were still with us. Wolves are people, too, eh?
Thanks to conservation efforts along with the continued spread of "urban" live, wild predators are more and more likely to encounter humans. Animal rights activists and "nature first" groups see the earth as a "frozen in time" snap-shot of the perfect nature and this perfect nature is always at a time from the past. Similar to how the climate change folks want to freeze the earth's climate to a point THEY consider the ideal.
It all is constantly changing and adapting to that change. Reintroducing and growing the wolf population will have an effect on an ecosystem that adjusted to account for fewer. These re-surging wolves don't know what is or is not allowed on their menu and will follow their instincts to hunt for food. More and more that food will be humans as we share space with these re-introduced wolfs (and cougars, mountain lions, etc.). Hunting is one way to maintain that balance and it has a place. The animal rights activists are anti-hunting and would rather let the wolves over breed their new environment eventually crippling the deer population and pushing themselves to starvation, as a new balance is reached. The animal rights activists will then want to do something about the starving wolves.
Controlled hunting (via limits) with population monitoring is the current best way to keep these types of animal populations managed. They don't want to see that because "four legs good, two legs bad".
My image of wolves is from reading Little House on the Prairie books to my kids. They lived in the reality of survival and wolves were respected and feared. The acceptance of sentimentality as a base for action regarding any ecosystem is a recipe for disaster for all creatures, man included.
As Oregonians saw with the spotted owl, sometimes an "endangered species" is a proxy for a whole suite of environmental - or environmentalist - interests; the species itself might or might not be important in itself.
I'm not commenting on whether either the spotted owl or the gray wolf is actually endangered by the numbers, or important enough to be protected by the Endangered Species Act by its effects on its environment. I don't know the answers to those questions. I just remember how long it would take (and often how impossible it proved to be) to get a federal permit for various kinds of land use if an official endangered species resided in an area, regardless of the actual impact of the land use.
It may be rational to defer — to some extent — to the tribes' belief in the sacredness of the wolves
Or it may be rational to do exactly opposite and exterminate them.
When Amerinds say "sacred" it just means "we like it".
Just to be clear, I like wolves and think it's disgusting to "hunt" any animals with leg-hold traps or snares.
Deer are the problem. Wolves are the solution.
The vaunted journalists of the New York Times didn't think it relevant to tell us how many wolves are in Wisconsin? Must be a lot.
serious question
do You WANT ravenous wolves moving into Your neighborhood, and EATING Your children?
Deer are the problem. An appropriate, but dynamic, balance between food supply and predation is the solution. Wolves can only be "THE solution" in places where humans live in so far as the wolves are not interfering with the humans.
Two many sacred wolves were killed because of Trump. That's the story.
Most people who object to the wolves' killing live nowhere near wolf habitat.
I'm trying to recall the short story we read in 9th grade or so, where the of end the story is that wolves start to approach the two combatants who are trapped under a fallen tree or something.
"Smart" hunting policies are as important to a healthy environment as "smart" forest management policies. Environmentalists are pretty much clueless about both of those, and when they have their say in the controlling regulations, we see the result with much worse wildfires, overpopulation of deer (which also results in a lot of sickly deer), etc.
"The vaunted journalists of the New York Times didn't think it relevant to tell us how many wolves are in Wisconsin? Must be a lot."
I didn't quote the whole article but it in fact does give a number: "Before the hunt, state officials estimated there were about 1,200 gray wolves in the state."
The quickness of reaching the quota suggests that the number was greater than estimated, though it's possible that the officials miscalculated the effectiveness of the hunting techniques (the techniques that offend the Humane Society).
Madison Man: It's a story by Saki (H.H. Munro) called "The Interlopers."
If there is an ideal wolf population that the state is aiming for and the state has determined that in order to maintain that population, 200 wolves should be shot, then the decision of the Ojibwe Tribe not to kill its allotted 81 means somebody else has to kill an additional 81 wolves. Otherwise the targets are missed and whatever benefits are supposed to be realized through responsible wildlife management will not be realized.
Original Mike said...
The vaunted journalists of the New York Times didn't think it relevant to tell us how many wolves are in Wisconsin? Must be a lot.
for 2018 the Wisconsin DNR estimates a minimum count of 232 packs that have 925 to 956 wolves living in our state. The count is up 6.8% over last year's minimum count. (Note: This is a minimum count and many believe the number is much higher.)
for 2020 the wisco dnr says MORE than a thousand
https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/topic/WildlifeHabitat/wolfreport2020.pdf
And when a wolf decides a little 2 year old is "what's for dinner", these same people will scream for the government to do something. Not to allow hunting of the wolves. No, that would be cruel, but maybe put up signs telling the wolves that children are not a healthy meal and they should look to roots and berries for a more well-rounded diet.
"Deer are the problem. Wolves are the solution."
That's a hypothesis, but do we want wolves running around in proportion to the deer population? What would that mean? If that would produce so many wolves that they're also wiping out herds of sheep and cattle or roving around in packs in suburban neighborhoods, I don't think you'd cling to that notion.
Deer are a problem; no doubt about that. They've decimated (I know, I know) a lot of woodland flora and are a deadly menace on the roads.
At the house we summer in in Vilas County they will walk right up to you. So I have a lot of sympathy for the "more wolves" side of the debate.
Notice how it's always people from shitholes who hate fear and kill dogs.
Whatever works, just as long as this doesn't end with wolves playing girls' sports.
MadisonMan said...I'm trying to recall the short story we read in 9th grade or so, where the of end the story is that wolves start to approach the two combatants who are trapped under a fallen tree or something.
I read that story too! I can't help you with the name though. The two guys were elders in feuding clans and were about to kill each other when a tree fell on them and they were trapped under its weight. While stuck together, they worked out their differences and agreed to a peace. Then they saw a group approaching them and they thought they were saved to implement their new peace agreement. It turned out to be a pack of wolves.
Nature giveth and nature taketh away.
"I didn't quote the whole article but it in fact does give a number: "Before the hunt, state officials estimated there were about 1,200 gray wolves in the state."
My bad. I skimmed the article and missed it.
Packs of wolves roaming neighborhoods is a typical flatlander hysteria mongering fear dream.
This is a story about government incompetence and NYT propaganda . Rinse and repeat.
This is a very misleading article. This AP news story indicates that the quota was 200 wolves and the season ends when the 200 wolves are killed. Hunters check in every day to see if the season is still open. All this says is that fewer than 200 wolves were killed by the end of day two and by the end of day three 216 were killed.
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/02/20/appeals-court-denies-dnr-request-to-stop-wisconsin-wolf-hunt
Typical biased reporting to make hunters/gun-owners look like they are out of control with bloodlust. Here's an alternative interpretation. The fact that hunters could kill 216 wolves in three days suggests that there are a lot of wolves, supporting the assessment that they should not be on the endangered species list. Predator hunting is much, much more difficult with much, much lower success rates than typical game hunting.
With the decline of sport hunting, I think an answer to the deer population is a bounty.
but I think I'd recommend rationality over sentimentality.
There's a first!
Howard said...Packs of wolves roaming neighborhoods is a typical flatlander hysteria mongering fear dream.
The Complete History of Wolf Attacks on Humans would be a pretty short book. Pamphlet, really.
“Whatever works, just as long as this doesn't end with wolves playing girls' sports.”
Exactly. Wolves playing girls volleyball wearing the clothing of sheep. No one wants to see that!
What is it with Democrats protecting predators?
though it's possible that the officials miscalculated the effectiveness of the hunting techniques (the techniques that offend the Humane Society).
All human hunting techniques offend the Humane Society.
Howard said...Packs of wolves roaming neighborhoods is a typical flatlander hysteria mongering fear dream.
Yeah, it's not like some other, similar, animal...like say the coyote... is already doing that.
The thing that drives me crazy is when people say things like "this is their territory, and *we* moved into it". As if the small pets and cattle and other things they feed on have no affect on their population size. As if *we* don't have a right to move around and live in the country.
People used to say this about coyotes when I lived outside of LA. As if the cats and dogs the coyotes feasted on weren't brought here by people, and the rabbits living off the jasmine and that was planted, and the water sources created by lawn springers and swimming pools simply weren't part of the cycle that encouraged the population growth in an otherwise pretty tough landscape.
No one wants to see that!
Someone probably does, but [pronoun] should probably not be indulged.
My home backs up to a wooded area that surrounds a large open area. When my windows are open in the summer, I can hear coyotes at night. The owner of the open area has started developing it into a tract of new homes. I won't be affected by them directly. They'll still be well out of sight, and the road into them doesn't connect to mine. As an abutter I was invited to the planning board meeting. One of the other abutters raised the question of the coyotes. While all of the current residents of the land surrounding these new homes hear the coyotes, none of us have actually seen one. There's enough wildlife in the area to keep them fed. They haven't come after our pets although we're all vigilant. Lots of wild turkeys, smaller mammals, etc. The builder was unaware there are coyotes on his land. What having 15 new homes in this open area will do to coyotes' and all of the other animals' habitat is anybody's guess. A lot of the smaller animals have started to be more visible. I see more turkeys and foxes than I did before the construction began. The bears have been coming closer to the house. But still no coyote sightings.
Why is it OK for wolves to kill deer, but not OK for humans to kill wolves? Hunting and killing is just as much a part of our nature as it is the wolves'. I bet humans are more humane about killing wolves than wolves are deer.
"The thing that drives me crazy is when people say things like "this is their territory, and *we* moved into it"."
The human population should restrict itself to Olduvai Gorge.
Michigan now has over 750 known wolves, 3 times what the DNR says should be the maximum population.
Will we get a hunt?
Hell no. Down State city folk thinks it's yucky and barbaric.
Howard said...
Packs of wolves roaming neighborhoods is a typical flatlander hysteria mongering fear dream.
I don't have any experience with wolves, but coyotes stalked me and my dog pretty regularly when I lived outside of LA. I wasn't afraid for my personal safety, although it is pretty eerie to watch them creeping down the foothills through the brush as I walked. I did worry about my dog, and I had a lot of friends lose their pets to the coyotes, sometimes right in front of their eyes.
The mountain lions were fewer, but more aggressive and able to kill even larger dogs.
Coyotes are like cockroaches. The more you kill the more they breed.
https://www.amazon.com/Coyote-America-Natural-Supernatural-History/dp/0465052991
Those hunting techniques seem unduly torturous for the wolves. I’m ok with hunting for pop control, but the death needs to be as quick as possible.
Also, what do the hunters typically do with the dead wolf? Is the meat ok, or the pelt useful for anything?
"'It was a race to kill these animals in the most cruel ways.'"
Really?
-- Boiling in oil
-- Wood chipper
-- Pulled apart by evil, carbon-spewing trucks
-- Made to watch 'The View' for hours on end with their little wolf eyelids taped open
-- Being shown naked pictures of Hillary until they decide death is a better way
This woman has no imagination. And her name is 'Kitty.' Did her parents know she was going to be dumb ahead of time, or did they wait ten years to name her?
Sounds like poor management if the hunt regardless.
Everyone thinks wolves are great until a five year old gets eaten. I say kill as many as you can. There's more that you can't see.
Deer population can be controlled through hunting permits.
Mr. Forward said...
Deer are the problem. Wolves are the solution.
Have you given any thought to what happens to the wolves once the "deer problem" is solved?
Maybe I'm cynical, but I think if wolves were special to, say, Catholics, it wouldn't be a factor..
"Deer population can be controlled through hunting permits."
There aren't enough deer hunters.
Where did they find the ammo?
At one time, I believed buying bulk ammo in large bins was nuts. The province of conspiracy theorists, and fraudulent elections.
I deer hunted as a teenager, until I got too busy making a living. Always thought I'd go back to it in retirement but it hasn't happened.
"Just to be clear, I like wolves and think it's disgusting to "hunt" any animals with leg-hold traps or snares. "
I'm sure the elk and deer find killing their predators by any means delightful. The alternative for them is being chased down and eaten alive by a pack of wolves.
You better hope they kill some of the smaller varmints too.
Tell the big game hunters to swallow their pride and take out squirrels, chipmunks and mice, too.
And hope, too, that starving bears aren't your next problem.
•
In the old days, Cuomo would have been called a "wolf."
Apparently hunting season only started after Trump was safely out of office.
I still have a poster published by the Michigan DNR when they re-introduced the Eastern Wild turkey into Michigan. It said the turkey needs 5-10,000 square acres of uninhabited habitat to survive. 5 years later, flocks were roosting on people's roofs in subdivisions.
Maybee: The Alpha cougar lived in our Santa Cruz Mountains neighborhood. One neighbor watched him kill her cat on her bedroom balcony. Another neighbor caught him on a game cam killing a doe in their back yard. When scouting raw property for sale with a friend, we discovered his den. I saw him run across the road one night on my way home. He was the most graceful, athletic, magnificent beast I have every seen.
You could always tell when noobies moved into the area when you saw signs for a missing dog or cat.
Meade said...
Exactly. Wolves playing girls volleyball wearing the clothing of sheep. No one wants to see that!
NEVER underestimate the pervyness of porn
If there's a thing, there's a porn
NOTE: i Do NOT watch wolf porn!
There aren't enough deer hunters
Then drop the price, especially for out of state residents.
...killed more than 200 wolves last week, far exceeding the state’s limit as they scrambled to take advantage of Trump-era wildlife rules...
Will the NYT draw the same inference about seeking to "take advantage" of "Biden-era" policy when 13 Mexicans are killed after smugglers stuffed 25 of them in an SUV?
Some of the hunting methods, leg traps, etc. seem cruel and should not be used. On the other hand, wolves themselves are not known for the quick way in which they dispatch their prey. Surely there must be some way to teach wolves to hunt in a kinder, gentler fashion......Also, has anyone noticed that what with the introduction of Combat insect traps cockroaches are disappearing from our urban environments. These small harmless creatures with their frolicking ways are seldom to be seen even in the cheapest restaurants.
"Then drop the price, especially for out of state residents."
The price isn't the problem.
If deer are the problem, why isn't the solution a longer deer hunting season, more hunting licenses, and larger bag limits?
Why trust a wolf to do the job a well-equipped hunter can do better?
Hunter's kill more people every year than wolves could ever dream of.
Surely there must be some way to teach wolves to hunt in a kinder, gentler fashion..
Nature, red in tooth and claw.
browndog said...
the turkey needs 5-10,000 square acres of uninhabited habitat to survive. 5 years later, flocks were roosting on people's roofs in subdivisions.
well, they had to roost Somewhere. Can't expect them to be able to get their little turkey heads around the concept of square acres 1,897,473,600 ft^4th?
(i can't get MY little head around the idea of a four dimensional foot)
or, maybe they need acre lots (43,560 ft^2) that are physically square?
"Trump-era wildlife rules"
Otherwise known as "following the law"...
From here:
U.S. Code Title 16. CONSERVATION Chapter 35. ENDANGERED SPECIES Section 1532. Definitions
(6)The term “endangered species” means any species which is in danger of extinction throughout all or a significant portion of its range other than a species of the Class Insecta determined by the Secretary to constitute a pest whose protection under the provisions of this chapter would present an overwhelming and overriding risk to man.
Can anybody say, with a straight face, that wolves are in danger of extinction?
Introduce wolves to all their original range. Let's start with Central Park.
Good call Wince.
"The quickness of reaching the quota suggests that the number was greater than estimated, though it's possible that the officials miscalculated the effectiveness of the hunting techniques (the techniques that offend the Humane Society)."
So many more times the estimate...
Which is more 'sacred,' the U.S. Capitol Building or wolves?
Round up wolves, put them in the Capitol Building, and let them roam the halls with congresspeople.
Win-win.
Blogger Howard said...
Hunter's kill more people every year than wolves could ever dream of.
Clearly the wolves need a hunter's hunt to keep nature in balance.
"The Alpha cougar lived in our Santa Cruz Mountains neighborhood."
There are a couple of Alpha cougars in my neighborhood iykwimaityd...
Raise the price of hunting licenses and use the proceeds for vouchers for the purchase of livestock protection dogs by farmers/ranchers.
Howard said..."You could always tell when noobies moved into the area when you saw signs for a missing dog or cat."
I thought they (cougars) had a taste for mountain bikers.
That's the spirit, Joe! All manner of cougars chew up and spit out dirty dogs!
By the way, there is speculation on hunting forums that the actual wolf take was lower than reported. Apparently, the application fee was quite low, only $10. That means that a PeTA member, or anyone against the hunting of wolves could apply for the lottery for only $10. If they get a tag, they can report a wolf killed and they don't have to actually show a carcass. That fake kill gets added to the total and the season is closed earlier than otherwise.
If you are telling me there aren't enough deer hunters in WI, I'm ready to sing a chorus of "Gone, Wisconsin".
@goddess: Thank you. Man, forgetting that name was bugging me. We read that, Leiningen vs the ants, To Build a Fire, and Clarke's Rescue Party. All in one book!
"If deer are the problem, why isn't the solution a longer deer hunting season, more hunting licenses, and larger bag limits?"
Longer season and larger bag limits would help some, but the problem is there aren't enough people who want to hunt. It's not something you do on a lark.
We need a bounty. Pay hunters for killing deer.
Running dogs on pregnant wolves, calling it hunting.
That's how you get this many in that time.
How many people here have dressed out a deer and dragged it out of the woods?
Wasn't that Trabuco Canyon about 20-years ago, Danno?
Maybe the reason for reaching the limit so quickly is that the wolves have been conditioned to the presence of humans and do not consider us a threat. In areas where wolves have been hunted for years, they are considered to be the most difficult animal to take.
Sort of funny how all these white people suddenly give a rat's ass about indigenous religious beliefs. Just pure coincidence that it is something they can use to push their agenda.
"That fake kill gets added to the total..."
So- like counting covid deaths, then?
Is there anything fake numbers can't do?
Oh yeah, and The Most Dangerous Game. I need to compile these short stories in one place for my great-niece.
Original Mike said:
"There aren't enough deer hunters."
On what planet do you live? The state sets limits on how many deer are taken so that the hunters don't take too many! I'm too lazy to look it up, but states like WI, MI, PA, etc., typically have hundreds of thousands of deer hunters.
Doug said:
"If deer are the problem, why isn't the solution a longer deer hunting season, more hunting licenses, and larger bag limits?
Why trust a wolf to do the job a well-equipped hunter can do better?"
Just as importantly, wolves don't pay for the privilege. The large majority of money for wildlife conservation in this country comes from hunters and shooters through license fees and taxes on ammunition, not from PeTA and other animal lovers.
I saw a wiki page that mentioned Orange County in 2004. Also was one in Washington state in 2018.
"On what planet do you live?"
Planet Wisconsin, where in 2019 500,000 hunters killed 200,000 deer out of a population of 2,000,000.
"I have no idea what the solution is"
Yes, just like the rest of the humans. Just like the subset of humans who have jobs pretending they know the solution.
hunting techniques (the techniques that offend the Humane Society).
raising chickens offend the Humane Society. (Which is nothing but a cash cow for its executives, like the Lincoln Project)
When it comes to coyotes versus bird-killing cats and yappy small dogs, I am cheering for the coyotes every time. Sorry Fluffy, sorry Fifi.
The Complete History of Wolf Attacks on Humans would be a pretty short book. Pamphlet, really.
Or a Liam Neeson movie.
$275 for an out of state deer tag for a gun is not cheap.
Howard said...
"Notice how it's always people from shitholes who hate fear and kill dogs."
You can always move, Howard.
Would you go hunting it it cost $10?
Running dogs on pregnant wolves, calling it hunting.
Because wolves NEVER kill pregnant deer....no animal besides humans ever kill pregnant animals while hunting.
Humans are monsters. Fuck them.
For those of you who aren't offended by hunting, either humans, other animals or both together, may I suggest a Youtube channel: The Mink Man
You can tell the people who post here who don't have a clue by their comments. Dumb doesn't begin to describe it.
Predators tend to proliferate in proportion to prey. In the case of grey wolves the prey is often somebodies livestock. Predators also go for easy kills. That's natural. Predators make every effort not to be injured by their prey. Often somebodies live stock. Northern Wisconsin isn't truly wild anymore. A wolf that requires a territory of twenty square miles would be hard pressed not to trespass on a farm or two.
If you really want to help wildlife buy hunting and fishing licenses.
Why no hue and cry over the orangefoot pimpleback mussel?
The "hunting" aspect of this is all just a smoke screen. This whole issue is entirely a false flag effort by the DNR by our zombie governor Tony Evers. Neverending in his ability to demonstrate malfeasance and incompetence in every other avenue of his administration, the DNR is one of last avenue of vindictiveness to use against the electorate he and his allies have contempt over that the legislature Republicans have not managed to insulate us from. Essentially from friends and colleagues who have dealt with the DNR, Evers is using it the same way Obama & Biden illegally used the IRS against the Tea Party amd American voters.
when they re-introduced the Eastern Wild turkey into Michigan. It said the turkey needs 5-10,000 square acres of uninhabited habitat to survive. 5 years later, flocks were roosting on people's roofs in subdivisions.
Reminds me of the wild turkeys of Staten Island. No joke, those little guys will fuck up your paint job, car or house but especially car.
Here in our civilized little corner of the country, we don't hunt or eat our pests. We trap them, give them vasectomies and a stern lecture about safe sex.
In relation to hunting and woods happenings, I've noticed that Wisconsin figures in the national imagination as a solid mass of trees populated by a solid mass of hunters hunting in the most brutal, stagey ways imaginable. But were wolf traps actually used in the 2021 hunt? A national humane society says so in the NYT, but did that really happen? And the hunting down of many pregnant wolves - did that happen? Each wolf pack has only one breeding pair so why is it being said that "many" pregnant wolves were hunted down? (And why are we speaking of a difference between male and female wolves as if male and female were a division in nature.) Anyhow that hunting season is over so I suppose Wisconsonites are no longer being stereotyped by PETA and can go back to being nice people in suburbs enjoying the wildlife in the backyards. Till the deer hunt.
Original Mike said
“ Planet Wisconsin, where in 2019 500,000 hunters killed 200,000 deer out of a population of 2,000,000.“
And does WI DNR limit the number of does hunters can take? Because that is the way you control a population. 500k hunters is plenty if they are hunting does. Deer are managed as a natural resource and a revenue source for state gov. 500k hunters could put a serious dent in that population if hunting seasons and limits were eliminated. Year round hunting and all animals fair game and you would see the pop drop. It is not a shortage of hunters.
The hunters need to start a catch and release policy for the wolves:
Catch them, and then release them outside the homes of "conservationists"
If you don't know where their homes are, just start releasing them in any areas where the white voters voted Democrat in 2018 or 2020
Mr. Forward said...
Deer are the problem. Wolves are the solution.
No, human hunters are the solution. Deer tastes really good
Hunting or trapping females, especially pregnant females, is the best way to control a population. That was the point of the hunt, right?
Original Mike is correct, too many deer and not enough wolves. Driving country roads “up north” in spring and fall around twilight is precarious. My sister and I have had several close calls when I’m up visiting her in Jackson County. She hit a deer once and had damage to her car, luckily she wasn’t hurt, the deer got away, but left blood and fur and a huge dent on her car. I’ve seen one lone coyote in the suburbs and a few fox, lots of deer, even saw photos of a cougar roaming my neighborhood, but never a wolf much less a pack of them.
And yes there aren’t enough hunters to keep the deer population down in WI.
Nobody eats predator meat, but wolf pelts are pretty valuable. You get hats, mittens , etc.
Open up more tags for Bambi's little sister. Sexual equality!
Original Mike said...
How many people here have dressed out a deer and dragged it out of the woods?
I have, but make it a point to kill it first. It's just easier.
I used to go to a CrossFit gym that had a running track out back, and there was a tree line about 40 feet away from the track. Sometimes if we were working out inside the gym, you could see coyotes playing around on the track. Occasionally when we were running, you could see the coyotes sitting at the edge of the woods and watching us. I was never particularly afraid of them, but as a relatively slow runner it certainly made me think a little.
Most hunters are unsuccessful. Incentivize the good ones. After you've got your buck, which in a some of areas requires you to get a doe first, (at least used to) we should start paying you for all the does you can bring in (up to some limit, of course).
Wolves are high-capacity assault carnivores that target Bambi, domesticated animals, pets, and humans, too, when they can.
That said, save a bird, a bat, whack a wind turbine. With polar bear populations surging, donate to World Walrus Foundation. Save a tree, clear the Green Blight.
"Most hunters are unsuccessful."
'Vegan' is an old American-Indian phrase that translates as 'Bad hunter.'
: )
Because wolves NEVER kill pregnant deer....no animal besides humans ever kill pregnant animals while hunting.
Humans are monsters. Fuck them.
Doe, a deer, a female... female-female deer, and her fetal offspring.
In fact, Planned Population schemes are considered forward-looking, socially just, socially progressive, and good for the climate. Abort the wolf, cannibalize her profitable parts, and sequester her carbon pollutants.
Jamie said...
As Oregonians saw with the spotted owl, sometimes an "endangered species" is a proxy for a whole suite of environmental - or environmentalist - interests; the species itself might or might not be important in itself.
The whole spotted owl thing is just another of instance of environmentalists being anti-science. They adamantly hate evolution. The spotted owl is not endangered due to human activity - there are more forests in North America now than there were a century ago (there's been a substantial decline in the number of people using firewood for heating and cooking). The reason the spotted owl is going to go extinct is that there's a related species called the barred owl that is a little bit bigger and much more aggressive that is moving in and taking over territory from spotted owls. It's evolution in action - that ecological niche is being filled by a species that is better adapted for it.
Wince said...
...killed more than 200 wolves last week, far exceeding the state’s limit as they scrambled to take advantage of Trump-era wildlife rules...
-------============
along these lines : who gave D governors their gran pa ma hunting license during Covidiocy?
have they fulfilled limit or more to go
Todd’s comment at 8:05 AM was spot on. This “frozen-in-time” viewpoint is absurd. The universe has never stopped changing and it never will. It’s a type of ignorant arrogance that says these things only become important because activists have involved themselves in it.
One thing to keep in mind is that the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is NOT the same thing as the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA). The former is the touchy-feely public outreach arm of animal rights/environmental groups like PETA, Friends of Animals, etc. They bank on the public getting the two mixed up. They don’t run shelters or sponsor spaying/neutering services. In reality they have no especial love for animals but rather a noxious hatred for humankind.
In the years I’ve mountain biked through both Golden Gate Park and The Presidio I’ve only ever encountered one coyote as it scooted off across the path, probably spooked by the sound of my bike. There are placards near popular footpaths throughout warning of coyotes. With so much thick brush, their dens are probably hiding in plain sight. Still, it annoys me, though, that we’re supposed to just suck it up and deal with these scavengers as if their presence is the norm. It’s not. And sightings are not just in the parks. Last fall a juvenile coyote was seen trotting through the Russian Hill neighborhood. Apparently it decided to go on a walkabout from the San Mateo hills, south of the city, and ended up getting captured and sent to the SF Zoo for observation.
Each locale should have it's own rules on how and what can hunted. The feds can sod off.
The emphasis should be on 'wildlife management' not 'conservation'.
The problem with discussing deer management is that deer typically live their entire lives within a mile of where they were born. The deer that are causing problems in the burbs are not relevant when discussing wolves. Wolves will not live as close to significant human settlement as will coyotes. Deer management needs to be done on the smallest geographic scale that is affordable.
It just shows there are a LOT of wolves in Wisconsin.
I'm Not Sure said...
"That fake kill gets added to the total..."
So- like counting covid deaths, then?
Is there anything fake numbers can't do?
3/3/21, 9:12 AM
Or Democrat votes?
Wild animals will always gladly leave the woods to dine on the easy pickings residential areas provide. Garbage cans [where we used to live, we had to lock our garbage can in the shed after a black bear hauled it over 50 yards into the woods], tasty pets and gardens are a tempting smorgasbord. Can you blame them? My personal opinion regarding the killing of wildlife when they present a danger is that it should be done only on your own property. I enjoy living with wildlife even if it means making certain adjustments.
Wikitorix, re the spotted owl - exactly. It was always just a proxy for something else - in that case (as in do many), stasis.
Bears repeating:
Bitter Clinger said... [hush][hide comment]
This is a very misleading article. This AP news story indicates that the quota was 200 wolves and the season ends when the 200 wolves are killed. Hunters check in every day to see if the season is still open. All this says is that fewer than 200 wolves were killed by the end of day two and by the end of day three 216 were killed.
God of the Sea People said...
I was never particularly afraid of them, but as a relatively slow runner it certainly made me think a little.
You just have to out run the other guy!
If nobody has yet posted a link to The Interlopers story. Worth the 10 minute read.
https://www.edco.ie/_fileupload/The%20Interlopers%20-%20A%20short%20story%20by%20Saki.pdf
"Everyone thinks wolves are great until a five year old gets eaten.”
You are thinking of pit bulls.
Talk of wolves reminds me of stories about housepet dogs getting in a pack and reverting to wild, attacking livestock.
That in turn reminds me of generally normal people being swept up in mob activity.
Which naturally brings to mind old western movies where the sheriff shoots the ringleader and everyone else goes home.
Which, of course, explains the murder of Babbitt. The killer watched to many vintage cowboy shows.
"Everyone thinks wolves are great until a five year old gets eaten.”
You are thinking of pit bulls.
Yep.
"Everyone thinks wolves are great until a five year old gets eaten.”
You are thinking of pit bulls.
Whoa! Lotsa wolves eating pits in Wisconsin?
Fernandinande said...
It may be rational to defer — to some extent — to the tribes' belief in the sacredness of the wolves
Or it may be rational to do exactly opposite and exterminate them.
When Amerinds say "sacred" it just means "we like it".
Just to be clear, I like wolves and think it's disgusting to "hunt" any animals with leg-hold traps or snare
*************************
Just let a Christian say that he considers a statue of the Virgin Mary sacred---and watch the progs and hipsters sneer.
But Injuns get a pass, because being "indigenous" trumps silly White religious people.
Gahrie said...
Running dogs on pregnant wolves, calling it hunting.
Because wolves NEVER kill pregnant deer....no animal besides humans ever kill pregnant animals while hunting.
Humans are monsters. Fuck them.
************
Gahrie conveniently self-identifies as non-human so he can virtue-signal. Cute.
You just have to out run the other guy!
I was never at the front of the pack, but I usually wasn’t dead last either!
“Would you go hunting it it cost $10?“. But you have to count on a $500 fine every few years from the ahole DNR guy for technically violating some useless rule.
But I do like the painting of the Russian aristocrat in the horse drawn sled being chased by wolves. He is throwing his servant out of the sled.
“Just let a Christian say that he considers a statue of the Virgin Mary sacred---and watch the progs and hipsters sneer.
But Injuns get a pass, because being "indigenous" trumps silly White religious people.”
This is because progs treat people who are not like them as infantile childish ignorant folks who need to be indulged and laughed at behind their backs. This started when the Boston Brahmins had missionaries bring native young men to Boston in the 1800’s to dress them up and make them go to college. Proto virtue signaling.
Endangered Species. Think about that for a moment. Man lives for about 78 years. He demands the World stay exactly the same as he remembers it as a child. Like the Global Climate.
And by Man, I mean...girls. Everyone else adapts.
Gahrie said...
Running dogs on pregnant wolves, calling it hunting.
Because wolves NEVER kill pregnant deer....no animal besides humans ever kill pregnant animals while hunting.
Humans are monsters. Fuck them.
************
Gahrie conveniently self-identifies as non-human so he can virtue-signal. Cute.
You must be new here. There's this little thing called "sarcasm"...
Browndog said...
Original Mike said...
"How many people here have dressed out a deer and dragged it out of the woods?
I have, but make it a point to kill it first. It's just easier."
damn it!
Farming and logging have done more to eliminate species than all the hunters.
Consider the passenger pigeon.
Mr. T @ 9:54 AM,
The WI DNR is anti-hunter? Like the WA DOT is anti-car? How do these things happen???
wholelottasplainin',
It seems Gahrie has a perfectly-functioning sarcasm emitter, But you might want to get your detector checked out.
I hunt, but can't bring myself to shoot something that is close to a dog. Here in Texas, coyotes are considered varmints and hunted, but I even have a tough time doing that.
Scott said...
"I hunt, but can't bring myself to shoot something that is close to a dog. Here in Texas, coyotes are considered varmints and hunted, but I even have a tough time doing that."
In my little river town in Illinois we used to have a feral cat problem. It didn't used to be a problem but well meaning, obviously liberal, women and beta males would feed them. Dozens and dozens of food bowls and discarded cat food containers on both banks of the river. We're talking hundreds of cats. The village passed an ordinance, "Don't feed the fucking cats!". People fed them anyway. "Poor kitties. They're hungry!".
Then the even hungrier coyotes came along. All the poor kitties were gone in about a year. But now we have coyotes all over the place.
There is no season in Illinois and no bag limit. If you see one you can take it by any means at your disposal.
Where I live, we'd hear the coyotes at night, close by. finally, in an adjoining park, they discovered the den. Inside, cat collars.
Althouse - in re: total population of wolves in Wis.
1200 is the DNR target. This number was exceeded several years ago. My recollection is that the last time they attempted to take a census they stopped at ~ 2000 and acknowledged the count was likely much larger than that.
As a fly fisher who spends lots of time on logging roads up north, I can attest to the fact the wolf population is very healthy. They are everywhere.
Althouse - in re: total population of wolves in Wis.
1200 is the DNR target. This number was exceeded several years ago. My recollection is that the last time they attempted to take a census they stopped at ~ 2000 and acknowledged the count was likely much larger than that.
As a fly fisher who spends lots of time on logging roads up north, I can attest to the fact the wolf population is very healthy. They are everywhere.
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