This made me look up old posts on this blog with the "Leni Riefenstahl" tag. I found "Is Michael Moore like Leni Riefenstahl?" from 2004 (the first year of this blog). Somebody else had compared Moore to Riefenstahl, and I said:I split screened shots from Leni Riefenstahl's 1935 Nazi propaganda film, Triumph of Will, with @realDonaldTrump’s video of his return from the hospital. Not sure if this was intentional, but it's eerily similar. His media team looking to history for inspiration, perhaps? pic.twitter.com/ZsZfHLttdL
— matt danzico (@mattdanzico) October 6, 2020
There are many huge differences between Moore and Leni Riefenstahl, though. Quite aside from the fact that she was working in support of Hitler and Moore is working against Bush (and Bush is no Hitler, despite some noise to the contrary), Riefenstahl would have snorted at the lack of artistry in Moore's work. She was all about beautiful and precise visual imagery. "Triumph of the Will" does not pound at you with voiceover assertions, it aims to lure you and seduce you with sequences of images. Moore's type of propaganda is far, far easier to resist, because it is immediately and constantly apparent that he is propagandizing. That is a lot fairer to the viewer: your resistance is instantly activated. You can decide what you want to think. What Riefenstahl did was incomparable.And, from November 28, 2016, "As a filmmaker, Mr. Bannon, 63, has cited both the Nazi propagandist Leni Riefenstahl and the left-wing documentarian Michael Moore as models." The post title is a quote from a NYT article. I wrote:
Why is Leni Riefenstahl is called a "propagandist" and Michael Moore is a "documentarian." The same word — whichever you choose — applies to both. Riefenstahl was unquestionably a great film artist, far more interested in film as art than Moore. See the excellent, nonpropagandistic documentary about her, "The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl." Moore is an out-and-proud propagandist. What's wrong with that if your cause is good? Riefenstahl presents the problem of what's wrong with art if your cause is bad.
So... there you see what should be my answer to the tweet. To serve your own good ends, you can use aesthetic devices that have been used by others to accomplish evil. To give another example, Socialist Realism is a great style for poster art, even though it was created and used by the Soviet Union.
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69 comments:
The Left is delusional and dangerous.
I'm not saying that Donald Trump is a Nazi, but everything about him is Nazi-like and hey - is that a Nazi over there? Oh, my mistake, it was just Donald Trump.
"Not sure this was intentional..." = "Some say..." It's a way of saying something while leaving yourself the wiggle room to say you're not actually saying it. It's a gutless move.
And check the front page of today's Boston Globe, where they endorse Biden/Harris.
Check out the illustration of the two.
Looks like it would fit right in along the propaganda posters in Beijing.
https://www.bostonglobe.com
Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore anyone who is a vegetarian is just like Hitler.
If the President had spoke to reporters on his way from the helicopter to the White House; we'd have House Democrat investigations into why the President only stood 6' away from reporters to talk to them. So the President spoke to them from a balcony much further away.
Alas, we have House Democrat investigations on the President going outside Walter Reed, because if they try to impeach again on Ukraine, we might learn something about Hunter Biden.
Freezing the film on Trump waving as if he was giving the Nazi salute tells you who the real propagandist is here.
Needs Wagner or Beethoven music added. Flight of the Valkeries would do.
Tubby Riefenstahl?
"There are many huge differences between Moore and Leni Riefenstahl.."
Well, there's waist size, to begin with.
A bit of a stretch but it does suggest your sentiments.
Speaking of Nazis and intentions; did the NYT mention Gov. Cuomo's use of a 2006 Jewish gathering as evidence for further lockdown restrictions in NY?
They dare not call what they do propaganda...
...They just call everything Hitler instead.
One difference might be that, while Leni Riefenstahl was an attractive woman, Michael Moore is a fat sack of shit.
So, long ago, someone on a President's staff decided (or noticed) that having the President come and go from the Whitehouse in a helicopter looks dramatic (and has other advantages, too).
But when President Rump does it, it is Hitlerian.
Yes, Trump is definitely a bipedal mammal like Hitler! Time for impeachment?
It's too early in the morning for Godwin's Law. Also, morons.
The Trump as Hitler narrative is simply insane. It says way Moore about the person making the analogy than it does about Trump.
Althouse is correct. This is a variety of the "Hitler told stories -- Trump tells stories. So Trump is like Hitler!" scam.
If you are wondering what kind of genius would come up with the observation that Riefenstahl used narrative techniques, and so narrative techniques are tainted with nazism only when used by people Danzico does not like:
Matt Danzico is a roving American journalist, designer, filmmaker and executive producer.
Danzico has founded media labs and documentary units at BBC and NBC News. His teams have garnered Webby Awards, a Peabody and dozens national and international awards. Danzico's own reporting and filmmaking have also received international awards and press attention. In 2019, he was nominated for Journalist of the Year by the Shorty Awards for his work at NBC.
There is a Stalin propaganda clip that almost exactly imitates the Riefenstahl sequence. It was definitely intentional. The twitter post should have referenced that one because Russia.
Leftwing propaganda trumps it all.
Hitler liked dogs. Trump doesn’t have dogs.
I have sources.
This may be the dumbest Hitler comparison yet. Leni Riefenstahl showed planes landing, Trump showed a helicopter landing. Trump is Leni Riefenstahl.
Why does Eisenstein get a pass? He made a movie, "Bezhin Meadow", that celebrated and glorified the mythic Soviet schoolchild who informed on his own father. As rancid propaganda goes, that's pretty extreme and none dare call it hate.
Yes, the similarity between the Hitler and Trump scenes is truly bone-chilling.
And of course the same is true of any national leader landing in an aircraft and then disembarking while acknowledging whomever is there with hand gestures (Hitler salute, waving, it's all the same).
Yes, this kind of thing has never happened before. Except in North Korea. And Venice, CA.
Kids Sing Praise of Great Leader
Remember those halcyon days?
Hitler, or literally Hitler?
William said...
Why does Eisenstein get a pass? He made a movie, "Bezhin Meadow", that celebrated and glorified the mythic Soviet schoolchild who informed on his own father. As rancid propaganda goes, that's pretty extreme and none dare call it hate.
I'm sure Matt Danzico hopes that one day he too will be denounced to the state by his children. No doubt he would shed tears of joy!
These people are sick.
Trump can't be Hitler because Trump doesn't paint.
No painting = not Hitler. Problem solved!!!
"I'm not saying that Donald Trump is a Nazi..."
Really lazy and disingenuous 'journalism.'
'I'm not saying Mooch is a man in drag, but...'
'I'm not saying Obama is a closeted homosexual, but...'
'I'm not saying Pelosi is an alcoholic, but...'
I could do this all day.
Where's my Pulitzer?
"Not sure if this was intentional ..."
Oh it was intentional, Matt. Talk about your dog-whistle! If there's one thing us bigoted rubes out here in Flyovia are keen on, it's subtle references to Riefenstahl. We know you urban sophisticates have a hard time picking up on this sort of thing, since she was only covered for a couple weeks in your "Film As Literature" course, but we study her entire oeuvre in detail. The moment I saw that helicopter, I knew Our Leader was inside, and the rather coarse hair on the back of my thick red neck stood straight up! I even began to cling bitterly to a small firearm I had been absently fondling, a bazooka.
It always gives me a thrill when one of the Creatives picks up on something like this. You see, they're not so different from us.
Nothing like that ever happened during the Obama administration.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=obama+halo&iax=images&ia=images
Obama often said, "Some say...." when he was about to spout BS.
It's an easy "tell".
I heard that Trump's father invaded Poland before it was illegal to do that.
Hitler? The National Socialist who believed in collectivism over individualism, statism over a free society, and who practically invented identity politics? THAT Hitler?
Hitler? The National Socialist who believed in collectivism over individualism, statism over a free society, and who practically invented identity politics? THAT Hitler?
Blogger Lucid-Ideas said...
"Trump can't be Hitler because Trump doesn't paint.
No painting = not Hitler. Problem solved!!!"
Well, Bush paint's so he must be the real Hitler!
Tim said... The Left is delusional and dangerous.
it is porn to them.
That is what Howie, Lefty Mark and gadfly jerk off to.
Manifest Density?
Density?
That doesn't look like a Sabo, but it made me laugh.
Hitler debarked from an airplane at Munich. Neville Chamberlain debarked from a plane after returning from Munich. Neville Chamberlain = Hitler.
"Trump can't be Hitler because Trump doesn't paint.
No painting = not Hitler. Problem solved!!!"
Well, Bush paint's so he must be the real Hitler!
Great Scott! Churchill was Hitler!
It all makes sense now!
I wonder how many people here have actually seen Triumph of the Will? I wonder if the author of this piece saw it or just looked for a few stills from it to illustrate a pre-conceived theory.
It is one Hell of a powerful piece of filmaking. Even in German. Even without subtitles as it was the first time I saw it.
I first saw it in 1978. I've been recommending it to everyone since then. It is on YouTube.
Not because I believe in its message. I am no kind of socialist, National or otherwise. But I think everyone should see it to realize what we are up against.
I think everyone should read Marx, at least Volume 1 of Capital, for similar reasons.
John Henry
Blogger Static Ping said...
It's too early in the morning for Godwin's Law. Also, morons.
According to Godwin himself, President Trum is soooo horrible, sooooo Hitlerian that the law does not apply to him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/08/14/the-creator-of-godwins-law-explains-why-some-nazi-comparisons-dont-break-his-famous-internet-rule/
In looking for this I found that Mike Godwin is suing President Trump over the Tik-Tok ban which is interesting.
https://reason.com/2020/08/24/mike-godwin-the-creator-of-godwins-law-is-suing-trump-over-his-tiktok-executive-order/
John Henry
Meanwhile, in reality, it's Andrew Cuomo and Bill Deblasio who are ready to round up the Jews.
Something this drama queen lefty tweeter probably would support.
So, if your video or picture is seemly similar to one done by a fascist or communist makes you a fascist or communist? People have become deranged. No thinking allowed, I guess.
Tim said...
The Left is delusional and dangerous.
Sadly, I think this is right - the left's crazy has become dangerous.
Just to clarify for people who have never seen Triumph of the will, it is a "Documentary" in the most strict sense of the word. Much more than Michael Moore's films.
Trimuph of the Will records "documents" the National Socialist's huge Nuremburg Rally of 1934 (year?). Doesn't cover much of anything else.
It is propaganda as well, of course. But it is first and basically a "documentary"
John Henry
That has got to be the most moronic tweet of 2020, so far. Anyone can take 2 sequences of a heavier-than-air craft landing, someone emerging through the door, and a car ride, edit them and make them look similar.
Beyond that, giving this any attention at all is just playing his game.
"To serve your own good ends, you can use aesthetic devices that have been used by others to accomplish evil"
You can, except you can't. In the real world, under prog hegemony, you can only do what progs deem right. So, film propaganda for the right prog cause goes, but since there are no other good ends, that's the end of it.
Nice arguments about what you can do, striving for some sort of consistent principle, are beside the point. Aesthetics is power, power is aesthetics, as Foucault almost said.
William said...
Why does Eisenstein get a pass? He made a movie, "Bezhin Meadow", that celebrated and glorified the mythic Soviet schoolchild who informed on his own father. As rancid propaganda goes, that's pretty extreme and none dare call it hate.
10/7/20, 8:58 AM
If we gave every Eisenstein type the opprobrium they deserved for putting out or supporting commie propaganda, we'd need to put up more streetlights in Los Angeles just to display all the carcasses.
I've seen Triumph of the Will as part of a history class. There's a reason Tarantino learned so much from Riefenstahl, and why the ending of Star Wars Episode IV borrows so liberally from her. Without subtitles you'd need a transcript to make sense of the speeches and narration, but the intent is clear: Germany is back. The film was explicitly designed to appeal to people who would otherwise have no interest in Nazi politics.
The Epstein/ Bloomberg media would ignore all this, of course, because the more people actually learn of Naziism and its history, the more clearly it diverges from the Eisenstein narrative.
You're dead right, John Henry. Triumph is very powerful. Watch the scenes where Hitler is riding in a convertible through a town. Some of the women in the crowd are having orgasms the same way some girls and women did watching the Beatles or Elvis. Leni Riefenstahl is no fool and knew this, and included that footage deliberately.
Triumph of the Will won awards all over Europe, in 1934 and 1935.
Landing in an aircraft, jauntily emerging and waving to supporters, smiling from a balcony. The Banality of Evil! Let me know when The Bad Orange Man starts setting up death camps for his political opponents. Until then, those folks can go Godwin themselves.
The diversitist apology. So Pro-Choice. Don't exercise liberal license to indulge color judgments. #PrinciplesMatter
Effective political gesture, political ad, or film:
1) If made by a Republican; hmm...reminds one of Hitler
2) If made by a Democrat; well done, sir!
They can't help themselves.
Oh, why not pile on? They (the Resistance) don't hesitate to do so . . .
Hitler here, Hitler there,
Hitler Hitler everywhere!
Narr
I like fresh sweet rolls in the morning, just like . . . uh oh!
isn't this THE DEFINITION of White Privilege ?
i mean, assuming that Leni was white
Who cares. Trump is still hero.
I had some lefty friends on Facebook this past week - all women - who went absolutely crazy over Trump taking Marine One to Walter Reed. They thought it was "imperial" and a huge waste of money. They have no idea what is required for a Presidential motorcade through DC traffic. I was of half a mind to tell them of two experiences I had with motorcades during the Obama era, one while trying to get through Asheville, NC, on I-26 and the other trying to get out of downtown Atlanta one Thursday night following a football game at Georgia Tech at the same time Obama was speaking at some function in midtown. In both cases entire interstate highway systems were shut down. It took me 2 hours to get through little Asheville. In the Atlanta situation all 16 lanes of I-75/85 through the heart of the city - plus all overpasses - were closed to traffic so Obama could get to the airport safely. I finally decided to not tell them because I have come to the conclusion during this campaign season that all these people are the only ones who know "truth" and have no interest in hearing from anyone with contrary ideas or experience.
'his name, is a killing word' the use of the weirding module was improvised for the film, which btw is being moved to next year,
Hey look at me - more Twitter (media) porn - up my likes.
BTW, Ann - thank you for not using the NY Times again for this window into the 'Liberal Hivemind'.
I'm not sure it was intentional, he only spent hours going through a full length movie so that he could pick out specific frames to splice together and edit to make it look as if something from the movie resembled a perfectly innocuous helicopter landing. Who doesn't spend hours watching Nazi propaganda films for entertainment purposes? What could be more fun for liberals?
matt danzico is a sap. Every film student is subjected to Leni Reifenstahl's work as a brilliant example of shall we say advocacy filmmaking. The cameraman who did that sequence and the editor who prepared it for broadcast were among them at one time.
This is not obvious? Does he know anyone who went to film school? What was he expecting, new ideas, a fresh approach? Not in that industry.
Riefenstahl's influenced - directly or indirectly - pretty much everyone who made a film after her.
Yes, Trump is definitely a bipedal mammal like Hitler! Time for impeachment?
It's probably too late to impeach Hitler.
Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore anyone who is a vegetarian is just like Hitler.
Even worse, he owned a dog.
To quote John Belushi, playing Freud in an early SNL skit, "Sometimes a banana is just a banana."
It wasn't Trump directing the news networks about how to film his flight home. So compare the news networks to the Nazi propagandist. Or admit that sometimes a copter flight is just transportation.
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