The Washington Examiner reports. According to the Sheriff's office, this was "mail going to the post office." That suggests that there was mishandling but not by the Post Office.
Were the "absentee ballots" ballots that real voters had completed and attempted to direct to the Post Office? There were "three trays" of mail and "absentee ballots" — which is an assertion only that there were at least 2 "absentee ballots" in the mix of what was in the "three trays." The trays were in "a ditch" near the Appleton International Airport.
Think of the different ways "three trays of mail, including absentee ballots" could find their way into a "a ditch" near the Appleton International Airport. Think of the different motivations. The presence of a few ballots — again, how many? — could be random. But let's say it's all about the ballots. Was this done by someone intending to prevent votes from getting counted, or was this done by someone faking evidence that mailed ballots are getting thrown away?
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Was this done by someone intending to prevent votes from getting counted, or was this done by someone faking evidence that mailed ballots are getting thrown away?
Here's the funny thing about mail-in ballot fraud: motivation doesn't matter. It's mail-in ballot fraud either way, which impugns the process.
HXG anticipates epic voting fraud this election. End of the Republic possible.
"Was this done by someone intending to prevent votes from getting counted, or was this done by someone faking evidence that mailed ballots are getting thrown away."
Here in Chicago this usually happens because some mail carrier decided he or she was never going to catch up. Typically, sacks of undelivered first class mail are found in culverts in suburban Cook County. That is known as special delivery in the Lincoln Park postal district. Dropping a letter in a mailbox here is like playing Russian roulette. So maybe they do that in Appleton, too.
If the trays were full of absentee ballots, they probably were sent from majority Republican neighborhoods.
That suggests that there was mishandling but not by the Post Office.
Maybe it's too early for me, but I do not see how you jumped to that conclusion. The mail is handled by the USPS. Otherwise big time illegal. My scenario would be a USPS driver picking up mail from, say, street collection boxes and dumping those three trays before returning to the home office.
I agree we need more information. Mail is thrown away all the time by busy/lazy mail collectors, so this "garners" attention IF the three trays are mostly absentee ballots.
Postal employees do not enjoy delivering the mail. If you look on youtube, you will find any number of videos of postal agents dumping bags and boxes of mail into dumpsters and sewers, etc. I thought this practice had crested several years ago, but it may persist.
In fact, there are several postal employee unions, and my understanding is that these unions do endorse political candidates. If you regularly get mail from one political party (I do not) and if your postal delivery person favors the other party, is it possible that he or she could "lose" your ballot?
I did get a primary ballot earlier this summer, however, from a state when I haven't voted for more than five years. I sent it back with a signed note asking to have my name removed from the voting rolls. I think some people I know would vote a second time if given a chance. Certainly there is no way to catch them if they do so.
Nope. No vote fraud here.
Suckers.
What does “on its way to the post office” even mean? Are they referring to the institution (suggesting it’s not under USPS control), or a particular sorting facility (meaning it could be under USPS control)? Who but the post office would have large quantities of mail in trays?
What does “near the airport” mean? Could it have been a windy day and a cart on wheels blew off the tarmac and into a ditch and nobody noticed until a few hours later? If someone was trying to destroy ballots, would throwing random trays of mail into an open ditch be the method they chose?
The only relevant question: Did the ballots belong to voters expected to vote Republican?
This was a guy who didn't feel like driving all the way to the post office. It was a conspiracy of laziness.
Unfortunately thinking about the problem will not tell us what actually occurred. May I instead suggest an investigation.
Was this done by someone intending to prevent votes from getting counted, or was this done by someone faking evidence that mailed ballots are getting thrown away?
This is obviously the fault of the people you don't like.
Or maybe they fell off the back of some cheesehead’s truck.
- Krumhorn
Shoddy journalism. Why not give out the number of ballots and whether they were going to or coming from voters? Also the city/towns impacted?
There’s no way I would trust mail-in voting in these times. In person on Election Day for me and mine!
Mail that has been sorted by the post office (can be by hand or machine-sorted) is put into "trays" that go out with the delivery person. Mail is generally not put into trays until it has been sorted. If the mail was found in trays, it strongly suggests that (a) the mail was lost/dumped/whatever by post office personnel, and (b) the neighborhoods to which the mail was to be delivered was known.
Shoddy journalism. Why not give out the number of ballots and whether they were going to or coming from voters? Also the city/towns impacted?
According to the article, the mail was turned directly over to the post office, who is refraining from comment.
You can get trays from the post office and use them for bulk mail....the thing is all the mail would be coming *from* one address to a bunch of addresses if it was outgoing mail. That would be pretty easy to tell. Then it could have been lost by a person bringing it to the post office.
Another option is if the mail is going to all *one* address. That could mean someone went to pick up their mail at the post office, and lost it one the way home.
If the mail is *from* a bunch of addresses and not to only one address, then only the post office should have access to it. Either the postal carrier lost it/dropped it/dumped it, or someone got into mail that was collected and was to be handled only by the post office.
There's nobody that has responsibility to collect *your* mail other than the post office. You don't give it to your apartment manager, or business owner, or boss for them to put in trays to bring to the post office.
Agree that this is shoddy journalism, but that's what passes for news these days. BTW, the correct nomenclature is "Postal Service" or "USPS", not "Post Office" if used in a formal sense. The use of "post office" in the excerpt is understandable, but capitalization changes this.
THEOLDMAN
(former journalist - ashamed)
(former postmaster - ashamed)
retired chef - let's eat!
It doesn't matter if they were real or fake, filled out or on their way to someone to be filled out. What matters is that this is yet another illustration of how utterly ridiculous it is to operate with a fully mail-in ballot system. It's not a system. It's an open door to corruption. Those who scream for it, or demand it, do so knowing it leaves a door open for various types of corruption, fraud. It allows for a bevy of creative ways to alter thousands of votes.
We walk around this and act as if its really OK. You read media reports constantly scoffing at the idea of voter fraud. I've been reading about actual voter fraud for decades now. Quit saying it doesn't exist, that it's a Republican talking point. It is as regular as the sun coming up in the east. It's like saying the sun coming up in the east is a Republican talking point.
Those who are against voter ID are afraid of having their options for fraud cut off. There can be no other reason.
Those who are for mass mail-in ballots prefer to have options to corrupt the vote. There can be no other reason.
We all know this. Yet we all walk around it and allow this to happen. We are allowing our country to be ripped apart.
Me, 15 years in the USPS, almost all in management, the last five as a Postmaster -- my take:
If the mail was not cancelled ("postmarked"), then it was dumped somewhere between the point of origination and the post office.
If all the (non-postmarked) mail had the same return address, then it might have be someone from the business or customer that dumped it. But why would absentee ballots be mixed in with the dispatch of a business's mail?
If an assortment of return addresses, it could have been a carrier on a collection route that did this but it makes no sense, given the circumstances: if from a collection box, why not scan it collected but leave it uncollected in the box if too lazy to handle it? If from a business collection point along the route, the carrier has already handled it and placed in the vehicle -- why dump three trays of it later? Most dumped mail, as already been pointed out, is mail that has been postmarked and given to the carrier to deliver and they choose not to for whatever reason.
Again, the story leaves out information that would assist in determining responsibility to some degree.
THEOLDMAN, Postmaster emeritus.
If someone was trying to destroy ballots, would throwing random trays of mail into an open ditch be the method they chose?
If I were trying to destroy ballots I would be trying to do it in a way that wouldn't get me caught and expose the fraud. I mean, duh?
Incompetence, not malice, is my guess here. Fell off a truck or whatnot. Which does not make voting by mail any more secure, but anyone trying to do this on purpose would, one kinda hopes, be three-digit-IQ enough not to leave a literal paper trail.
No chain of custody
No verification your ballot was counted
Democrats run all of the institutions
These 3 basic, undeniable facts alone should tell you all you need to know about mail-in election.
Counter argument: It works just fine when democrats vote for democrats in democrat States.
The phrase "three trays of mail" sounds like it might be a terminology specific to and part of the job of someone gathering mail for the post office. If that is the case then this is almost certainly a case of a postal worker committing electoral fraud. The voting preferences of the district are in the public record and that alone is enough to tell such a person what the odds are on a vote from that area.
Beyond that if we are talking about the person who actually delivers mail to an area, then that person probably knows or can guess the politics of most people in his or district.
If "three trays of mail" doesn't mean something in the post office delivery context, then a bit more explanation of "tray" might be useful as it is surely a clue.
As I understand it many states have made it legal for people to gather other people's votes. The opportunities for abuse are obvious. In fact the inevitability of abuse is obvious.
The people I'm most irritated with are those that claim that mail-in voting can be conducted with integrity and honesty.
y'all are Ignoring THE REAL ISSUE
WHY, is there a Appleton International Airport????
Although ATW is an international airport, currently there are no scheduled international flights. Rather, private aircraft arriving in the United States can clear Customs at the airport.
How MUCH, is it costing taxpayers, to staff this Customs station?
WHO, are the richie rich folk that this is serving?
WHY, isn't THIS news?
serious question
were these actual, COMPLETED absentee ballots?
or, were they applications for absentee ballots?
have Actual, Wisconsin absentee ballots been mailed out already?
(here in iowa, i'm still getting applications sent to me)
What does one expect from Trump's Post Office?
That suggests that there was mishandling but not by the Post Office.
Are not the mailmen part of the Post Office, even though they're in the field distributing and collecting?
Even if this mail was swiped off a mail truck somehow, that is still mishandling by the Post Office because they didn't keep the mail secure.
Who mishandled it if it wasn't the Post Office?
I once worked a while for ManPower and spent a few days leafletting in CA. I recall a ditch that was full of ditched leaflets. Never underestimate the power of lazy.
Was listening to NPR yesterday and they talked about how mail in ballots tend to have the highest rejection rates and, while a cure is possible, it requires the voter to:
1. Identify that their vote wasn't counted.
2. Take steps necessary to cure the vote
They were talking about 4% rejection rates as an example.
Why on earth did Democrats go all in on promoting mass mail in voting?!?!?
Better to put your ballot in a bottle and toss it into the sea.
What does “on its way to the post office” even mean?
I agree. Mail is shuttled between towns and cities by contractors, but they're driving large trucks packed with mail. To pick 3 trays out of a semi-load doesn't make sense.
Greenville is a wide spot in the road. Appleton International Airport graduated from plain old Outagamie County Airport which I suspect is a better name since international flights would have little use for this dinky operation. As for bad reporting, this was Tailgunner Joe and Greta Van Susteren territory. News there is about Aaron Rodgers or it is not news.
Were there any guys in Hawaiian shirts delivering mail?
Any MAGA hats?
People on the left want to say this is caused by the right (even though "this" does not exist). I don't care who does it.
I don't really care if it was a lazy worker bee, or a dishonest pol of either party. This crap will occur. The numbers, we will be told are minor.
But even minor numbers can be critical (Gore/Bush anyone?). And for all the talk of voter disenfranchisement, THIS is the real deal.
When I worked the election in August, I recall maybe 2 (out of less than 400, but more than 300) were rejected. One was rejected because the person had apparently moved (they weren't registered in the precinct). A couple didn't have signatures.
What I'm curious about: in Madison, the absentee ballots go to the precinct/ward where the person would normally vote in-person. I wonder how this is done without the poll workers (after Election Day, as recently allowed by some Federal Judge somewhere) to put the ballots in the tabulator. Maybe I can work at that too.
Why on earth did Democrats go all in on promoting mass mail in voting?!?!?
Yes, a four percent rejection is high. But if you "harvest" 100 votes for your guy and 4 percent are rejected, you gain 96 votes.
What does one expect from Trump's Post Office?
Howard doesn't know many (any?) postal workers.
Perhaps they are setting up the scenario that after in person voting is over and they know how votes they need, they "find" the needed number in a Milwaukee, or better yet, a Waukesha culvert. "Oh yeah, that happened up in Appleton, remember? And now here. Oh look. See, Jane, see. biden-Harris carries Wisconsin. See Kamala, laugh, Laugh, Kamala, laugh. Look, Hillary is laughing, too. And Hunter laughs. And Czechowskyj in the Ukraine laughs. Everyone laughs. Die, Republic, die."
regardless of how or why the mail and the ballots ended up in a ditch, this is a pretty good example of why there are many more inherent problems with absentee ballots. To many steps in the process where you are not in control of your own vote.
Go vote in person. If you can stand in line at the grocery, or sit at your kid's little league game, or go to work you can vote in person. The polls are incredibly well managed for COVID-19. Lots of disinfectant, physical barriers between you and the poll workers, 6 foot spacing while waiting in line and in addition to the sticker you get to keep the pen you use to sign the poll book.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/cdc-study-wisconsin-elections-caused-no-coronavirus-spike/
And, we've done it before and we know there was no spike caused by it.
“ Why on earth did Democrats go all in on promoting mass mail in voting?!?!”
To quote an old movie, In confusion there is profit.
When Scott Adams was on about this Althouse mocked him.
Imagine you examine one of condoms in your medicine cabinet, and find a tiny hole. It’s just one condom, right? It’s just a tiny hole, right? Your confidence isn’t really affected, right?
Howard said...
What does one expect from Trump's Post Office?
Howard? let's assume, for the sake of argument;
that you Aren't a twenty something incel, living in your mom's basement...
Could you explain how you thought President Trump had control over the daily Wisconsin Mail?
Do you want us to believe, that In Your Mind, that makes sense?
I'm waiting... How is This President Trump's fault? PLEASE, educate us!
It is not uncommon for government agencies to outsource their printing and mailing of such things as utility bills & tax notices. In that case a private company takes the data from the city (county, state, utility district whatever), prints the bills or notices, stuffs them in envelopes and gets them to the USPS in mass. I would assume the same applies to absentee ballots.
I place a stamp on my husband's Wisconsin absentee ballot envelope when I mail it back. This means it must be cancelled at the post office. If the stamps on all that mail has been cancelled, it was the postal service that had control of it. If it was not, then it was on its way to the post office.
"Dropping a letter in a mailbox here is like playing Russian roulette."
In the early '80s I traveled around Europe...the usual backpack thing. At the time, the Italian post office had been/was on strike and mail wasn't being delivered. They just burned what was sitting around that they couldn't deliver.
I was told (and it worked) to mail everything from the Vatican instead.
I got a traffic (camera) ticket in Italy too. Rental car in my name, address, etc. It took five years for it to get to me. I was pissed off but paid it at my wife's insistence.
Newman!
Agree with eddie willers. Collections from drop boxes. The USPS has long ago lost any confidence the public might have had in its competence or integrity. Do the employees even have to pass Civil Service Exams nowadays? Our current mailman [who delivers from a truck] spends half his time backtracking. He must burn twice as much gas in doing this. At first I thought it was because he was new but he's been here a year now.
"Maybe it's too early for me, but I do not see how you jumped to that conclusion. The mail is handled by the USPS..."
I'm just reading what the Sheriff said. Why do you think he said that?!
Why don't we have a a multi-day vote in person election instead of mail in ballots. ?
The mail in ballot situation is ripe for leftwing tinkering.
Was it an attempt to get false mail into the system, the ballots and some other mail as a cover? "Oh, look, dumped mail. We need to get it to the addressees! Oh, and even ballots! How awful!"
We did that kind of thing to Germany in WWII; not ballots (Germany didn't have those then) but propaganda.
It would not be hard to mock up something like that. That whole batch of "mail" needs to have a good look from the Postal Inspection Service.
TreeJoe said...
“Was listening to NPR yesterday and they talked about how mail in ballots tend to have the highest rejection rates.... Why on earth did Democrats go all in on promoting mass mail in voting?!?!?”
The Democrats want all the rejects counted as votes for Biden.
I don't understand why, if we can pay our federal income tax online, why we can't vote online. Sure, there are risks but probably fewer risks than trusting the USPS. Assuming I get my ballot, I'll be taking it directly to the post office, not leaving it in my mail box to be picked up.
I place a stamp on my husband's Wisconsin absentee ballot envelope when I mail it back. This means it must be cancelled at the post office.
A LOT of mail with stamps gets through uncanceled.
Gore used that to his advantage in Florida, getting all military ballots his lawyers could find without postal cancellations disallowed in 2000.
“What does one expect from Trump's Post Office?
“Howard doesn't know many (any?) postal workers.”
A clue. They are unionized government employees. Little, if any, different from SEIU and AFSCME members, except maybe more militant. Maybe more like Treasury employee union members. We are probably talking 99% (or so) employee political donations going to Democrats. Would you trust these other unions to honestly conduct elections? When their paychecks might depend on electing Democrats? Why trust postal workers?
Pretty much every current and recently retired postal worker I have talked to indicated that they have horrible labor relations with their management (and thus, possibly why the union is so militant). Cousin moved from full time letter carrying for decades to overnight cleanup over management requiring significant mandatory elective overtime. Her daughter is out of the house, and she is now divorced, so has no need or desire for OT. Sorry. Required. Scheduled day off? Sorry again, but they need you. Recently retired rural delivery driver complained about them tracking her vehicle to make sure it didn’t stop anywhere for more than 15 minutes, and not giving them extra time, or pay, to deliver in the snow around Christmas, as was reasonable in the slack time in the summer. Etc.
“ Gore used that to his advantage in Florida, getting all military ballots his lawyers could find without postal cancellations disallowed in 2000.”
Which was, of course, illegal, since there is a specific provision that overrides state law in this regard for deployed military personnel.
WHY, is there a Appleton International Airport????
They probably had one flight to Canada at some point for the paper towel company employees who needed to visit a mill.
Blogger mockturtle said...
I don't understand why, if we can pay our federal income tax online, why we can't vote online. Sure, there are risks but probably fewer risks than trusting the USPS...
9/24/20, 11:18 AM
Two different things with, quite obviously, two different requirements.
But how about you attach your vote to the tax return? Pay your taxes and vote on the same form?
What does one expect from Trump's Post Office?
I don't know. What does one expect from Obama's IRS?
Ann Althouse said...
"Maybe it's too early for me, but I do not see how you jumped to that conclusion. The mail is handled by the USPS..."
I'm just reading what the Sheriff said. Why do you think he said that?!
How?! did you get from the Sheriff's:
According to the Sheriff's office, this was "mail going to the post office."
To your:
That suggests that there was mishandling but not by the Post Office.
If the postman picked up the mail, put it in his truck, and drove it to the post office, it may not be by your meaningless "Post Office" construct that the mail was mishandled, but nonetheless it was in the custody of an agent of the USPS and thus mismanaged by the United States Postal Service or their agent, whether inside a building commonly called a "Post Office" or in a postal truck or in a cart going between mailbox and cart.
Once the mail is in the mailbox, it is property/custody of the USPS. Those bushel-sized "trays" are USPS property. No hapless office manager or landlord did this.
They just found some dumped military ballots in Pennsylvania as well, apparently all for DJT - though I am not sure how the authorities know this. As for International Airports, many times it was done years ago for an international firm nearby. Hence Harrisburg International Airport due to a friend of mine's idea years ago who worked at IBM and AMP. The international status is ridiculous, but those companies could easily expedite spare or replacement parts to critical users very quickly via HIA. Don't try a flight though, I checked on flights to Dublin, an extra $1K to go from HIA, so we took the train from Harrisburg to Philly, stopped at 30th Street for the connection (where there is a nice pub type place), and saved the extra couple $K for souvenirs.
"Mail is shuttled between towns and cities by contractors, but they're driving large trucks packed with mail. To pick 3 trays out of a semi-load doesn't make sense."
Contractors trucks are sealed by USPS employees with a metal, number-inscribed tape that, once in place, is locked and must be cut to be opened. It is broken at its destination by the receiving postal facility. Inside the truck may also be Registered Mail, in a nylon sack, sealed with the same metal tape.
THEOLDMAN
once worked a while for ManPower and spent a few days leafletting in CA. I recall a ditch that was full of ditched leaflets. Never underestimate the power of lazy.
It met the owner one night at the Riviera in Vegas playing single deck blackjack. He got me to up my bets and I did pretty damned good.
Nine discarded ballots found in Harrisonburg, PA. All nine were for Donald Trump.
todd galle, asks how the authorities would know this? Well, it's right on the ballot who the person is voting for. That's the point of a ballot.
We are not going to have a legitimate election. It's set in stone at this point. And who arranged for this to happen? The Democratic Party and left-wing judges.
Pretty much every current and recently retired postal worker I have talked to indicated that they have horrible labor relations with their management (and thus, possibly why the union is so militant).
Lots of complaints about the Trump commission.
Another Obama judge with a nationwide injunction to stop changes in USPA.
Bastian, an appointee of former President Barack Obama, issued a written order later Thursday that closely tracked the relief sought by the states. It ordered the Postal Service to stop implementing the “leave behind” policy, to treat all election mail as first class mail rather than as slower-moving categories, to reinstall any mail processing machines needed to ensure the prompt handling of election mail, and to inform its employees about the requirements of his injunction.
The changes were to speed up delivery, which in our zip code is more than 7 days for first class.
todd galle said...
They just found some dumped military ballots in Pennsylvania as well, apparently all for DJT - though I am not sure how the authorities know this.
Yes, the link with details:
https://pjmedia.com/election/matt-margolis/2020/09/24/military-ballots-found-in-the-trash-in-pennsylvania-all-were-trump-votes-n964614
Mail-in ballots from the military serving overseas were found in the trash in Pennsylvania. The ballots were discovered during an investigation into election issues in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania. They were all votes for President Trump.
More discarded ballots. All, apparently, for Trump.
So, questions.
Will Althouse retract her mockery of Scott Adams?
How do we know these were a Trump ballots? I assume they are invalidated but, why were they opened?
How, if at all, did the discarder know these were for Trump? That is a very worrying thing.
Forgot the link
https://pjmedia.com/election/matt-margolis/2020/09/24/military-ballots-found-in-the-trash-in-pennsylvania-all-were-trump-votes-n964614
Blogger mockturtle said...
"I don't understand why, if we can pay our federal income tax online, why we can't vote online. Sure, there are risks but probably fewer risks than trusting the USPS. Assuming I get my ballot, I'll be taking it directly to the post office, not leaving it in my mail box to be picked up."
You're very trusting of the people at the USPS. I'm not. I'll be voting in person.
THIS WHOLE ISSUE JUST SOUNDS LIKE TRUMP TRYING TO DISCREDIT MAIL IN BALLOTS. SO someone threw away 3 trays of mail. Since they say it was 3 trays implies it was a lazy postal worker, as that is a measurement they would use, who should be fired. They should be able to tell whose route they were on by the return addresses to determine the employee responsible. The fact there were 3 trays and they were not all ballots makes it unlikely that there is some attempt to sabotage mail in ballots specifically.
Had our POTUS not been making such a big issue about the validity of mail in ballots this wouldn't have been national news. Local officials need to investigate to determine how they got there before we allow him to turn this into a national crisis on mail in ballots!
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