August 2, 2020

"Why Can’t We Just Have Class Outside? It might be the answer to America’s school-reopening problem."

Writes Olga Khazan in The Atlantic.
A small group of activists across the country are pushing for schools to consider teaching children in person, but outdoors in a park or even a parking lot....

It might sound crazy, but kids learn outside all the time, and did so even before the pandemic. About 250 “forest schools” exist in the U.S., in which younger kids spend much of their time in nature... In the early 1900s, during a tuberculosis outbreak in Rhode Island, kids attended a school with the windows always open, even in the winter. They sat in sleeping-bag-like blankets and had heated soapstones placed at their feet, The New York Times reported. Eventually, there were 65 such “open air” schools around the country....

Outdoor school would look like an extremely low-tech, mildly uncomfortable version of a regular school day, though perhaps with more sunscreen. Kids would be at a soccer field, in a park, or on another patch of green, advocates told me, or even in the middle of a closed road, if the school lacks green space. They’d sit under a tree or portable shade structure or simply wear sun hats.... [K]ids would wear jackets or head for the gym or cafeteria on rainy or cold days....
Kids should be outside most of the daytime, so it would be a great experiment in teaching them how to be outside. But are teachers prepared to be outside? Can teachers really meet the responsibility of caring for youngsters who are not walled in? I'm picturing kids getting up and running off. Isn't that what the outdoors inspires — what we hope for kids to want and love to do outdoors?

I'm thinking the entire enterprise of schoolteaching has to do with capturing young people indoors and insisting that they do indoor things, so the schoolteachers are people who've wanted to spend their lives doing that. How can they adapt to an outdoor setting? As Khazan writes, outdoor school is envisioned as the same as indoor school, just more uncomfortable! That is, these people who are the current schoolteachers will not be launching toward anything like "forest school." They'll just be tasked to get the kids to behave like the indoor kids that, until now, they've been creating and shaping in a convenient indoor setting.

Put them out in the middle of a closed road and watch the magic happen.

129 comments:

buwaya said...

Wet, cold.

We often used to have outdoor classes in the dry season heat. But we had a grassy football field edged with mango trees.

In the US in autumn and winter things aren't going to be as nice.

I guess tenting can substitute for mango trees, to some degree.

Josephbleau said...

No district could afford the liability insurance for this change. It would be ok for about 30 percent of students. January and February in the upper Midwest is not going to work for 8 hrs outdoors. If you are going to go inside to the gym all the time, why not just stay inside, infection will be the same. Who writes this stuff?

Nichevo said...

Uncomfortable doesn't necessarily mean that we are poisoned by fresh air or our tushies hurt sitting on a sward of grass. The uncomfortable probably comes in because we are not Grecians anymore sitting under the shade of a tree listening and memorizing. We sit at desks, we read books, we write, we use a blackboard, we use reference materials, dioramas, sometimes even AV equipment.

All of that is, obviously, more "uncomfortable," faute de mieux, outside. I would hope that teachers aren't neurotic enough to desire to be stuck inside hot classrooms. There often is a reason for things.

AA, your classroom routine is so well worn and hackneyed that all you need to operate it is your mouth, and not any classroom teaching aids?

Ralph L said...

At the school Auntie Mame chose for her nephew, the kids ran around naked. Can't remember if that was outdoors, though.

tim in vermont said...

This is a hard problem and only childish thinkers believe that there are easy answers. Denial is the go-to in most cases.

We can pretend that stuff like this doesn’t happen, for example

Then, in pediatrics, there’s this multi-system inflammatory syndrome in children, which appears to occur not typically with acute infection, but following the acute infection by a short period of a few weeks. This is where multiple systems are involved with inflammation, including skin, joints, kidneys, lungs and heart. And some of these kids can be very sick, with rare deaths.. - Same interview with the Dr at Berkley I linked in the other thread.

I know, I know, “Too bad so sad. Not my problem."

Jeff Brokaw said...

I think this is a great idea, especially for the younger kids, and boys of any age. More activity, less sitting in chairs, is a win for all.

My daughter-in-law homeschools their two young pre-schoolers and you would not believe the things they are already learning at ages 4 and 2. They love it because she makes it interesting and fun, and going outside regularly and learning about the world around us is part of it.

If I had to predict outcomes, I would say charter schools could and would adopt this willingly and make it work to the mutual advantage of the kids and the school environment in general while public schools will moan and complain about how unworkable it is.

iowan2 said...

Sure. It could be done. The issue is children have no discipline. Thats the reason learning has gotten so bad. Too many parents are busy trying to get their kids to like them they, failed to instill discipline. 60 years ago would have gotten better results. Not perfect, because there are always there are always the 1%ers. But today they have become the 40%ers.

Temujin said...

Site lines suck outdoors. Lighting varies as the day moves on. Whatever you're presenting on will either be seen or not seen, depending on where others are sitting and what time of day. There's precipitation. Heat. Down south it could not be done. I'll assume The Atlantic writer is not familiar with the South. Big area. A lot of people. Up north it'll be freezing, snowing, sleeting, and all those things that make it a Winter Wonderland. And of course, birds. They fly overhead.

And in large urban centers it would not work. Imagine teaching in a parking lot on the south side of Chicago. Wait- DUCK! I would not go to school if that's where it was held. Or in Detroit, Newark, Baltimore, Washington DC, etc etc etc

Aside from that, I'm sure it's a great idea.

MayBee said...

K]ids would wear jackets or head for the gym or cafeteria on rainy or cold days.... Kids should be outside most of the daytime,

Why not just....head to the classroom on cold, rainy, or snowy days?

IDK, the last moral panic brought about shooter drills, locking up schools and putting in bullet proof glass. So outdoors seems like a big counter to that.

MayBee said...

This also seems like kind of a middle class suburban answer to the problem- as all of the quarantine answers seem to be.

I don't know that a lot of urban schools have the space outside or the neighbors you want hanging around teaching all day.

MayBee said...

Althouse- would you have liked teaching your classes outside?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Yeah. Teaching outside in 36 degree weather with 2 feet of snow on the ground...or when it is 107 during the day in Arizona or Amarillo where the wind never stops blowing from every direction. Great idea.

Actually. Outdoor classes when the weather is nice is a good idea. But it isn't the answer to the political shut down of schools for the Covid (Get Trump) theater.

Fresh air in the schools, home and offices, instead of recirculated air is a better idea. Open a freaking window. Get some air circulating and venting out the old contaminated air. Even without it being Flu season, which is what Covid is....a flu virus....we should get fresh air.

We use an evaporative cooler...aka Swamp Cooler. During the hot days, air from outside being cooled by water, through the filter pads, blows through the house and out of the windows that are strategically cracked open. You can feel the breeze on the outside of the house. Nice fresh cool air circulating through and out of the house. At night when it cools down...we open the windows wide and feel the fresh air coming inside. Plus all the nighttime sounds of frogs, owls, other birds, and coyotes off in the distance.... :-)


Bruce Hayden said...

“ But are teachers prepared to be outside?”

Silly Ann. You are suggesting that public school teachers have more interest in their kids, than in themselves. A lot of them are happy as clams right now, getting paid to stay home, and sporadically pretend to maybe work. Remote education is great for them, because they can just ignore the students who have interests other than learning the subject being taught. No more disruptive students. No more dealing with classes where the bulk of the students are more interested in the social scene, that the subject matter.

But ultimately, the question arises, how long can we afford to support them if they fail to provide the education function, as well as the daycare function?

Birkel said...

The point of education is to develop union members who donate to Democratics, of course.

All else is beside the point.

Birkel said...

tim in vermont,

How goes your start-up business that guarantees safety for people?
Will all of your customers live to 120? 125?

narciso said...

that's not what science from norway and holland bears out, stay in your eloi bunker,

Fritz said...

This is a hard problem and only childish thinkers believe that there are easy answers. Denial is the go-to in most cases.

We can pretend that stuff like this doesn’t happen, for example

Then, in pediatrics, there’s this multi-system inflammatory syndrome in children, which appears to occur not typically with acute infection, but following the acute infection by a short period of a few weeks. This is where multiple systems are involved with inflammation, including skin, joints, kidneys, lungs and heart. And some of these kids can be very sick, with rare deaths.. - Same interview with the Dr at Berkley I linked in the other thread.

I know, I know, “Too bad so sad. Not my problem."


California has had 450,000 cases of WuFlu, and one death under 18 years old (the kid was between 13-17). It can happen, but it's a statistical anomaly. One doesn't design a policy around such rare events.

A few years ago a 35 year old woman living 2 doors down died of the flu, leaving 2 kids. Was Obama responsible?

iowan2 said...

As mentioned above, the midwest is hardly conducive for outdoor stuff. Iowa can have 40 degree temperature swings. Scattered showers are common. Severe weather too, common. Insects can be a challenge. Skeeters to noseeums, black picnic bugs, gnats...none insurmountable, but a huge distraction. And since parents can't be bothered to provide basics for there own children, sun screen and bug repellent become the schools expense.
And as noted upthread, liability is an issue. Pelosi refuses liability relief.

Bruce Hayden said...

“I think this is a great idea, especially for the younger kids, and boys of any age. More activity, less sitting in chairs, is a win for all”

This is one of the big scandals of public education. Lower school teachers, in particular, tend to be mostly female, and they naturally tend to prefer treating their students as they had been at those ages - girls who happily sit around quietly, with their legs primly crossed, etc. Boys aren't like that (on average), and are driven to be much more active. What to do to reconcile this? Drug the boys so that they act like girls. Instead, the boys would do much better if they had a couple recesses a day, where they could run around like wild Indians, burning off their excess energy. Instead, in a lot of schools, recesses have been abolished for any number of reasons, but mostly because girls don’t need them the way that boys do. Drugging the boys to act like girls is so much easier.

exhelodrvr1 said...

The public schools, on the whole, have a very difficult time thinking outside the box. As does most of the government bureaucracy associated with schooling. One of the biggest issues our country faces.

Tommy Duncan said...

"Why can't we just have class outside?"

In Minnesota the answer is mosquitoes, sunstroke and frostbite.

tim in vermont said...

Teachers over 50 should suck it up and get back to work, but asking me to wear a mask is beyond the pale.

stlcdr said...

Outdoor learning is what it should be. But sitting outside watching a teacher teach (sic) the same old drivel in 90 degree heat is what it’d be interpreted as.

cacimbo said...

The teachers unions are this biggest obstacle to this.

James K said...

I know, I know, “Too bad so sad. Not my problem."

Not the point, but nice straw man. The point is (a) MSIS is extremely rare, and the connection with COVID is hazy (it certainly pre-existed COVID and occurs with or without it); (b) seasonal flu is much more deadly to kids, but we do not close schools for that.

The point is that life is full of one-in-a-million level risks of death, and if we are going to shut down or massively alter our lives for them, then shutdowns and massive alterations will be our permanent state. I vote no, especially since the benefits of those measures, versus much less costly common-sense things like hand-washing, keeping sick kids at home, etc., are limited.

Expat(ish) said...

I grew up and went to school in Louisiana, Florida, and North Carolina in the 60’s and 70’s. No air conditioning. No screens in the windows.

I also have two Eagle Scouts and a venture troop leader and have spent more time camping outdoors in all weathers than almost anyone not in the military. But with teenagers.

Outdoor school ain’t gonna work.

But, heck, if so one can figure out how it can be used to hurt OrangeManBad, let’s give it a try.

-XC

walter said...

Puhleeze. This would not be nearly economically disrupting enough for teacher's unions.

Crazy Jane said...

The wonder is this wasn't considered in May.

Why couldn't an elementary teacher see half her (or his, not "their") students for an hour or two at 8:30 a.m. and the other half at 4 p.m.?

Here's the reason: "We've always done it this way, and just because there's a global pandemic, we can't just go changing things now."

tim in vermont said...

"The point is (a) MSIS is extremely rare,”

Care to put a number on it, both pre and post COVID? You seem to know a lot more about it than that doctor at Berkley, so please share.

Mattman26 said...

Maybe they could put up fences to contain the kids and then we can scream that they’re “putting children in cages!”

gilbar said...

serious (though, TOTALLY unrelated) question

hey, iowan2?
how do they detassle corn now? Are there Still busloads of kids heading out to castrate corn?
or, have they got the mechanical chopper things good enough now?
i used to live in Central Iowa; and there were LOTS of seed corn fields
up here in the driftless zone; i can't remember seeing a single field, so i can't just watch

tim in vermont said...

"California has had 450,000 cases of WuFlu, and one death under 18 years old (the kid was between 13-17).”

That’s kind of non responsive, isn’t it? How many of the children that have had it have scarring in their lungs? Shouldn’t we know this kind of stuff when making decisions? Or is it all knee jerk?

The Minnow Wrangler said...

This is like the "everyone should ride bikes" argument you see everywhere. Weather, bugs, etc. makes it impractical.

WK said...

Regardless of how the decision on how to reopen is made, students in poor districts will be negatively impacted. Students in wealthier districts will get by. We will likely not know how much learning is impacted as many states will probably stop standardized testing due to the disruption (not fair to students or teachers) and many colleges are not requiring ACT/SAT admissions tests. The results will show up years down the road but experts will be confounded about any possible causes.

joshbraid said...

Many schools do not have windows that open. I am guessing that most schools these days are "energy-efficient", which means that they recirculate indoor air (less cost for heating or cooling). The few times that my classes in government school or university were outdoors, the main goal was to enjoy a fine spring or fall day. I remember those days in particular and not for the instruction.

I think that the more people who do not participate in the dempanic the better. That said, using fear to control the populace is a very longstanding political method regardless of ideology. The most innovative approach should (and won't) take place in schools that identify as "Christian", which should not (and do) appeal to fear for motivation. I guess it is the easy path yet counterproductive as evidenced by "safetyism". My motto is "Watch out for meteorites, they can kill you!".

MadisonMan said...

I wonder how many school windows in new schools actually open. Has that been sacrificed on the altar of energy-efficiency?

The challenge of teaching outside is noise, in my experience.

M Jordan said...

I’m all for looking at alternative settings/methods in education but as a teacher of 35 years I can tell you, nobody pays attention to you when you’re outdoors. Nature rules. Comedians know this to be true and will never perform outdoors if they’re smart.

I once had the unlucky opportunity to witness two clowns performing in 100-degree heat outdoors in a park. Nobody laughed at anything. Finally one of the clowns — the little one, the Karen — got mad. “What’s wrong with you people?” she yelled. “We’re up here working our butts off while you sit on your hands.” They then went back to performing and the crowd clapped uneasily. This was, tbh, the funniest part of the whole bit.

walter said...

Reminder: Day Care workers are "heroes".

DavidUW said...

Just open the goddam schools.

Put teachers in face shields, clear out part of the front row for that magical 6’, shove in some hepa air filters and open the windows when possible.

No more risk to the teachers (and really we know it’s all about the teachers, screw the kids) than grocery shopping

tim in vermont said...

I know that blog commenters are the real experts, but the CDC is reporting this:

On April 26, 2020, clinicians in the United Kingdom (UK) recognized increased reports of previously healthy children presenting with a severe inflammatory syndrome with Kawasaki disease-like features.1 The cases occurred in children testing positive for current or recent infection by SARS-CoV-2, the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19, based on reverse-transcriptase polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) or serologic assay, or who had an epidemiologic link to a COVID-19 case. Patients presented with a persistent fever and a constellation of symptoms including hypotension, multiorgan (e.g., cardiac, gastrointestinal, renal, hematologic, dermatologic and neurologic) involvement, and elevated inflammatory markers.2 Respiratory symptoms were not present in all cases.

Eight cases, including one death, from the UK were described in a recent publication.3 In the limited sample of 8 children, it was reported that 75% of the patients were of Afro-Caribbean descent and 62.5% were male. The report also indicated that all 8 patients tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 through antibody testing, including the patient that died.3

During March and April, cases of COVID-19 rapidly increased in New York City and New York State. In early May 2020, the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene received reports of children with multisystem inflammatory syndrome. From April 16 through May 4, 2020, 15 patients aged 2-15 years were hospitalized, many requiring admission to the intensive care unit. As of May 12, 2020, the New York State Department of Health identified 102 patients (including patients from New York City) with similar presentations, many of whom tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 infection by RT-PCR or serologic assay. New York State and New York City continue to receive additional reports of suspected cases.

Additional reports of children presenting with severe inflammatory syndrome with a laboratory-confirmed case of COVID-19 or an epidemiological link to a COVID-19 case have been reported by authorities in other countries.


https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/2020/han00432.asp

My point here is not that we shouldn’t re-open schools, my point is that knee jerk responses and supposedly “obvious” solutions are dangerous. I think that older teachers should be offered early retirement, and that we need to really cut down the concentration of children in buildings and we need everybody involved, including parents, to agree to the kind of contact tracing that has been shown to work, and that all people in the school including the kids are going to have to wear masks as much of the time as possible.

stevew said...

Such a silly idea I had to go look up Olga Khazan. Yeah, silly idea from an inexperienced journalist with no training and expertise in education. Not very well informed about the various weather conditions around the US during the course of the school year either.

Here's an idea: abolish public schools, refund the taxes collected to pay for it, let the parents figure it out. That's pretty silly too, won't ever happen and would create a largeish underclass that get no education.

The only sensible, non-silly thing to do is reopen the schools as usual in late August/early September.

MadTownGuy said...

Brings back a good memory. Our Civics teacher in HS brought in an old tire and told us class would be outside. Late spring SoCal weather with overcast and temps cool enough for a walk. We went up the street the school was on, and kept walking past its end and up the hill. Got up as far as we could go without trespassing, which was pretty far up, and teacher turned loose of the tire. It rolled for what seemed like five minutes though it was probably much less. His lesson? To let us "experience the esoteric moment of a tire rolling down a hill." Lots of effort to teach us the proper use of 'esoteric,' but it certainly was memorable.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Ah so now the other small bits of wisdom from our 1918-1919 Spanish Flu are finally being discussed! Guess what schools that could not move outdoors did differently back then? Nothing. No one was begging Eilson to tell them what to do. Governors managed their states. County health departments did their job, and some cities like San Fran famously isolated themselves to quell transmission. No worldwide panic. No TV. That last point is the most relevant. National media had limited reach back then and absolutely would not have been trying to induce panic like our modern psychopathic media.

That’s my new theory. The more MEDIA gain power as the “4th estate” the more they abuse this power of information transmission and the the more psychopathically they operate, completely disconnected from healthy debate by their lack of care for their own country, zero empathy for fellow Americans, focused only on stirring up and screaming about HATE to the exclusion of normal human engagement. Instead of teaching AI to care like humans our modern tech masters seem intent on programming all the human out of their victims/customers.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Tim how many kids have died in that rare immunoresponse you describe? How many from COVID compared to common flu, which is MORE deadly to kids under 15. You are an hysterical fear-monger if you think kids are more at risk IN schools than at home. This reluctance to return to normal is causing a longer second wave than necessary already. Why make it last into flu season?

walter said...

Dane County, WI
Number of covid cases who have died: 37
Population: 529,843

https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/publications/p4/p45358-2017-dane.pdf
(from 2015)
Lower resp disease: 134 deaths
Pneumonia & influenza: 62 deaths

RichAndSceptical said...

Adequate vitamin d level has been shown in some studies to minimize risk of getting Covid-19. Getting the kids in the sun every day without hats and sunscreen might be a big plus.

I have given some thought to holding class outside. Bugs and direct sun for too long are the main problems. I'm thinking a tent with side vents and a big fan for circulation might work. Even a canopy might work.

On a related school matter, why not have the younger teachers teach at school and the older teachers handle the online teaching?

Fernandinande said...

Speaking of learnin' and stuff, the Universe turned 12,600,000,000 years old on July 17.

Happy Birthday, Universe! You might be taken for granted but you will not be forgotten!

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Hey Tim, my anecdotes can beat up your anecdotes. My 18 year old knows two kids who have committed suicide this summer due to mental illnesses which were exacerbated by isolation and their families' financial stress.

I know. Too bad, so sad. Only corona matters!

I Callahan said...

You are suggesting that public school teachers have more interest in their kids, than in themselves. A lot of them are happy as clams right now, getting paid to stay home, and sporadically pretend to maybe work. Remote education is great for them,

Yep. The ones in my own Facebook feed are all whining about having to go back. Apparently they’re more entitled than the police, fire, doctors, nurses and yes, grocery store employees. Teachers are some of the whiniest, most entitled people in the country.

Jersey Fled said...

From The Atlantic of all places:

Strikingly, in one database of more than 1,200 super-spreader events, just one incident is classified as outdoor transmission, where a single person was infected outdoors by their jogging partner, and only 39 are classified as outdoor/indoor events, which doesn’t mean that being outdoors played a role, but it couldn’t be ruled out. The rest were all indoor events, and many involved dozens or hundreds of people at once. Other research points to the same result: Super-spreader events occur overwhelmingly in indoor environments where there are a lot of people. . . .

Draw your own conclusions.

Mine: So why are we being told to wear masks outdoors?

Thistlerose said...

Well if they really do this it will reduce our rate of childhood obesity.

Wince said...

Zeynep Tufekci also writing in The Atlantic had a more comprehensive argument that ventilation is not being given the priority it should in the overall “mitigation stack,” particularly when it comes to schools.

We Need to Talk About Ventilation
How is it that six months into a respiratory pandemic, we are still doing so little to mitigate airborne transmission?

Saskia Popescu, an infectious-disease epidemiologist, emphasized to me that we should not call these “super-spreaders,” referring only to the people, but “super-spreader events,” because they seem to occur in very particular settings—an important clue.

…But that’s not all. The super-spreader–event triad seems to rely on three V’s: venue, ventilation, and vocalization. Most super-spreader events occur at an indoor venue, especially a poorly ventilated one (meaning air is not being exchanged, diluted, or filtered), where lots of people are talking, chanting, or singing.

…All this has many practical consequences. As Marr, from Virginia Tech, says, if aerosols are crucial, we should focus as much on ventilation as we do on distancing, masks, and hand-washing, which every expert agrees are important... all these protections stack on top of one another: The more tools we have to deploy against COVID-19, the better off we are.

...The importance of aerosols may even help explain why the disease is now exploding in the southern United States, where people often go into air-conditioned spaces to avoid the sweltering heat.

…There are two key mitigation strategies for countering poor ventilation and virus-laden aerosols indoors: We can dilute viral particles’ presence by exchanging air in the room with air from outside (and thus lowering the dose, which matters for the possibility and the severity of infection) or we can remove viral particles from the air with filters.

…Consider schools... Classrooms are places of a lot of talking; children are not going to be perfect at social distancing; and the more people in a room, the more opportunities for aerosols to accumulate if the ventilation is poor. Most of these ventilation issues are addressable, sometimes by free or inexpensive methods, and sometimes by costly investments in infrastructure that should be a national priority.

...[C]lassrooms have windows, some have doors that open directly to the outside, and many have a cement patio right outside. Teaching could move outdoors, at least some of the time, the way it did during the 1918 pandemic. Moreover, even when indoors or during rainy days, opening the doors and windows would greatly improve air circulation inside, especially if classrooms had fans at the windows that pushed air out.

Read: Why can’t we just have class outside?

When windows cannot be opened, classrooms could run portable HEPA filters, which are capable of trapping viruses this small, and which sell for as little as a few hundred dollars. Marr advises schools to measure airflow rates in each classroom, upgrade filters in the HVAC system to MERV 13 or higher... Jimenez told me that many building-wide air-conditioning systems have a setting for how much air they take in from outside, and that it is usually minimized to be energy-efficient. During a pandemic, saving lives is more important than saving energy, so schools could, when the setting exists, crank it up to dilute the air (Jimenez persuaded his university to do that).

Jimenez also wondered why the National Guard hadn’t been deployed to set up tent schools (not sealed, but letting air in like an outdoor wedding canopy) around the country, and why the U.S. hadn’t set up the mass production of HEPA filters for every classroom and essential indoor space. Instead, one air-quality expert reported, teachers who wanted to buy portable HEPA filters were being told that they weren’t allowed to, because the CDC wasn’t recommending them. It is still difficult to get Clorox wipes in my supermarket, but I went online to check, and there is no shortage of portable HEPA filters. There is no run on them.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

It is amazing that this far into a pandemic the public ignorance of epidemiology is still so high! Let’s review what we should have learned:
1. We cannot STOP the spread of COVID
2. But we can slow it down with mitigating factors (social distancing, frequent hand washing, don’t touch face)
3. Slowing the spread makes the slope less steep, which makes the peak lower preventing The overwhelming our health care system.
4. COVID will continue until everyone we all come in contact or herd immunity (between 60-80% have antibodies) is reached.
5. Doing 2 and 3 will create a long tail as deaths-per-day approach zero. We may never reach zero. Flus tend to evolve over time.

BUT overdoing 2 and 3 has the perverse effect of creating a 2nd wave, or graphically, a 2nd peak in DPD (a better stat than cases). This is because we slowed it way down without enough cases to create herd immunity, and the COVID as it says in #1 is going to run its course. After the second wave, if one shows up, the end is inevitable as the virus burns out. By all measures the worst is over for the USA and most of the world.

The plastic barriers may remain. Masks may become common. But life could and should return to normal now. When we get to our normal flu season, though, I’m afraid our horrible DNC-Media will try and confuse people further and induce panic over our normal flu too, conflating cases with COVID.

Mr Wibble said...

[i]The public schools, on the whole, have a very difficult time thinking outside the box. As does most of the government bureaucracy associated with schooling. One of the biggest issues our country faces.

8/2/20, 7:41 AM[/i]

It's always going to be that way, because the system isn't set up, nor can it be set up, to encourage creative thinking. Too many strings attached to money, too many funding compromises, and too much control from above regarding what should be taught. Add to that the fact that new teachers are graduates of education programs, which means they don't have the in-depth knowledge of a specific subject necessary to know how to be creative when teaching, and very often they aren't particularly bright either, and you end up with the modern classroom.

JAORE said...

Why can't we have outdoor graduations?
Or funerals?
Or outdoor baseball?

Oh, we do.

Why can't we have outdoor office cubicles?

Phil 314 said...

AZ schools typically start second in August. This past week highs were in the one teens.

James Pawlak said...

Hmmm! I invite her to now join such classes in Hurricane threatened Florida OR Southern Texas or Arizona or New Mexico OR, in February, our own Wisconsin (Or, Minnesota, North Dakota and, of course, that part of Alaska North of its "panhandle".

Openidname said...

Where's the science behind doing everything outside? Are there random, double-blind, controlled studies that show COVID-19 is significantly less transmissible outside?

Yes, I get it, it's sense -- more air, more space, more ultraviolet light. But science exists to test our a priori assumptions. If common sense were always right, we wouldn't need science.

P.S. When it's cold or rainy, "kids would head for the gym or cafeteria"? How about heading for the classroom?

Mark said...

Why can't we?

Because of authoritarian and arbitrary health officials -- like the one in Montgomery County Maryland who just made it a criminal offense for non-public schools to open -- who enjoy the power they have and with complete disregard for the current science and solely because of their own ideologically-driven prejudices have unilaterally decided that all of society needs to shut down (while they, of course, continue to have a cushy, well-paid job).

stevew said...

This article, in the Atlantic, makes much more realistic and sensible recommendations about actions on which we should focus in the school reopening discussion.

Let's Talk about Ventilation

Harsh Pencil said...


Why don't we do it in the road? Mm
Why don't we do it in the road? Ah
Why don't we do it in the road? Mm
Why don't we do it in the road? Mm
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?

Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?

Ooh

Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it, do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?

Mary Beth (the commenter) said...

This would work fine in some areas. In others, who would scan the park or parking lot each morning for used needles?

Like learning from home, the kids who have involved parents/parents with resources are going to do well and kids who don't are going to be left behind.

I'm Not Sure said...

"(b) seasonal flu is much more deadly to kids, but we do not close schools for that."

Not yet. Clearly, there are those who would like to.

I Callahan said...

That’s kind of non responsive, isn’t it?

No, it was a direct response to your knee-jerk emotionalism over a 1 in a million case.

How many of the children that have had it have scarring in their lungs?

I don’t know, and neither do you. How many kids have lung scarring due to asthma, acute bronchitis and the flu? If it’s one, we’d better shut the country and the schools down.

Shouldn’t we know this kind of stuff when making decisions? Or is it all knee jerk?

The virus didn’t even exist prior to less than a year ago. What kind of knowledge should we have at this point? Why does the flu keep mutating? After all of the years we’ve studied it, how come we haven’t eradicated it yet? And yes, it is all knee-jerk, in your case at least.

For all intents and purposes, this bug is less dangerous to kids than the flu is. Yet we’re considering closing schools, shutting down businesses and arresting people who aren’t wearing masks. This is insanity, and anyone espousing it should be nowhere near the levers of power.

Jeff Brokaw said...

Tim in vermont: “How many of the children that have had it have scarring in their lungs?“

It is likely you could reliably interpolate the numbers you seek using percentages relative to the one death. Very, very low, almost certainly.

Besides, it is a good bet that any such numbers would be widely publicized and weaponized in this battle over schools; they don’t talk about the numbers because they are nearly zero across the board.

Kids die at far higher numbers from flu every year. I do not understand the fear around opening schools. There is no data to support it, and we absolutely *cannot* allow hypotheticals to drive policy when data is sufficient to point us in the right direction.

Lucien said...

Where would they put the metal detectors?

Owen said...

Let’s see: no building needed, just a parking lot or (for the lucky ones) a grassy area. No electricity to feed the laptops or WiFi. No plumbing. Just the original Arcadian model of instruction and debate among those self-disciplined and motivated enough to follow the topic as the mosquitoes circle or the rain sheets down.

How much will we be asked to pay for this? Regular teacher salaries plus a big kicker because they might get wet or cold?

My BS meter is pegged right now.

Jupiter said...

"I'm thinking the entire enterprise of schoolteaching has to do with capturing young people indoors and insisting that they do indoor things,"

That's right. Same as prison guards, but not so well-prepared for the job.

If your kids aren't criminals, don't send them to prisons. Home-school!

Big Mike said...

Leave it to Althouse to forget that it snows in Minnesota (and even Wisconsin!) in the winter. Even in warmer months there is this phenomenon called “precipitation.”

Narayanan said...

Mistake Americans make about schools' purpose >>>> since teachers unions came into existence schools exist to keep paychecks going to the teachers >>> and fund unions.

Big Mike said...

Leave it to Althouse to forget that it snows in Minnesota (and even Wisconsin!) in the winter. Even in warmer months there is this phenomenon called “precipitation.”

ellie said...

I'm running a pod this year in my home, so I added a UV-C light to my HVAV system to kill germs and viruses. It also help the system run better. The light cost me 35 dollars.My husband installed it. There are also small portable UV plug ins for a single room that only run 40 dollars or so. It seems like a small investment in the right direction.

tim in vermont said...

"it is a good bet that any such numbers would be widely publicized and weaponized in this battle over schools; “

You should have quit right there and it would have been an intelligent comment, then you made up a number to support your politics.

Sorry I Callihan, but you don’t get to bootstrap your wild ass guesses into hard data. But this was fine: "The virus didn’t even exist prior to less than a year ago. What kind of knowledge should we have at this point?” You should have quit there instead of making shit up to reassure yourself.

MayBee said...

We're just kind of gliding by the fact there was a tuberculosis outbreak and the schools stayed open

Joan said...

Via Instapundit today: RealClearPolitics on school closures, it’s political not science-based. Many links and references to studies from around the world.

I’m a teacher and I want school to be as it was before the insanity of quarantining the healthy took hold. Unfortunately my opinion doesn’t count for anything, I will say there’s no way we could do outdoor instruction in the greater Phoenix metro area until late October the earliest. We are starting in the next week or so (online) and temps will be hovering around 110 when we do. What many don’t realize is the temps will not drop into the low 90s until October, which is comfortable if you have shade but miserable if you don’t.

tim in vermont said...

"Hey Tim, my anecdotes can beat up your anecdotes.”

Where have I given anecdotes? I just pointed out that the health officials in multiple countries have noticed a new inflammatory disease in children associated with COVID. But I gave up on honest debate here a while ago.

Ann Althouse said...

“ Althouse- would you have liked teaching your classes outside?”

Not in direct sunlight. Not sitting on the ground (because we need to be looking at big books and writing). And it would need to be a small class. Would have to be quiet. Then, yes.

At UW, I could look out my window and see small classes taught on the lawn. I don’t believe these were very effective.

Narayanan said...

I am hoping ARM will pop in to say >>>>>>>> what was good for his avatar is good for anyone.

teachers should be able to get in 10,000 steps being 'peripatetos'

walter said...

I suspect kids make a strong association between being outdoors and playing, not studying.
Would be a great op to march them around for Social Justice though.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Tim if you don’t know what a cytokine storm is or what triggers it why are you even here opining in kids? Your ignorance and obstinance is not helpful to solving problems.

Francisco D said...

My wife teaches HS Art here in suburban Tucson. The pay is horrible (I am the primary breadwinner) and the hopelessly bureaucratic administration is worse.

However, she has a wonderful set of classrooms with an enclosed yard that she will use when the weather cools down in October.

The idea of teenagers following "the rules": about masks and social distancing is absurd. It will be an interesting year for teachers.

mockturtle said...

Picture kids in the Pacific NW with their soggy papers and ruined computers, chilled to the bone from wet clothing and their little teeth chattering from hypothermia.

James K said...

Care to put a number on it, both pre and post COVID? You seem to know a lot more about it than that doctor at Berkley, so please share.

The CDC has numbers post-COVID.

186 MIS-C Cases, 26 states

March 15-May 20, 2020

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/infographic-mis-c.html

Brian McKim and/or Traci Skene said...

Checking in from a mild, four-season "continental climate": This is moronic. I grew up in a town of 30,000 in the I-95 corridor, one mile east of the Delaware River. (It was "thickly settled" as the signs up in New England warn the motorists.) And so do millions more now, 50 years later. There is no way any learning gets done, outside in that climate, for any more than 20 percent of the available time--even with year-round classes.

Has anyone considered how LOUD IT IS OUTSIDE? TRAFFIC? WIND? BIRDS, ferchrissakes? Ya can't fix stupid.

St. Cecilia's Elementary School could reasonably accomodate about one-fifth of the student body using the asphalt lot behind the school.

August? Out. Too hot, humid. Winter? Out for at least half of it. Obvious reasons. Spring? Cold, wet, breezy and then it shifts into unbearably hot and humid.

Common sense has left the building.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

You don’t want kids in masks. They have the ability to shake off the virus with mild sniffles or inherent immunity anyway. In other words the more kids are freely breathing in the room the more viruses are being deactivated by their immune systems. This is another reason universal mask wearing is stupid. Recovered or asymptomatic people are our herd immunity, their bodies kill viruses not spread them. You don’t want these antibody equipped people covering their mouth at all.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Joan said regarding teaching outdoors in the heat We are starting in the next week or so (online) and temps will be hovering around 110 when we do.

Maybe do some home ec classes and teach the kids how to fry eggs on the dashboard of your car. Drying fruit in the back of the suburban. Physics classes on how fast your sweaty tee shirt will dry on the hood of the car versus flat on a side walk. Experiment and take bets on how much time it takes to turn a bag of gummy bears into a colorful glob. (20 minutes in my experience to completely melt the whole pack of bears)

KIDDING.

It is a ridiculous idea to think that teaching all classes outdoors can be effective. Yes. Let's read and discuss Moby Dick, read Shakespeare (do they even do this anymore?), do some calculus in 115 degree weather. Or in a thunderstorm. Or when it is snowing.

Achilles said...

tim in vermont said...

"California has had 450,000 cases of WuFlu, and one death under 18 years old (the kid was between 13-17).”

That’s kind of non responsive, isn’t it? How many of the children that have had it have scarring in their lungs? Shouldn’t we know this kind of stuff when making decisions? Or is it all knee jerk?

Probably a thousand times fewer kids than died from the flu in 2019 when you didn't give a shit and weren't bleating like a stupid sheep barking for your media masters and flipping a ball on your nose.

robother said...

Ancient graffiti chipped into the Pathenon: "Socrates does it under the trees."

walter said...

It would be nice to know the age ranges of the 5 purported covid deaths in my county of 85,000, but the health dept. refuses to reveal that info.

Achilles said...

tim in vermont said...

"Hey Tim, my anecdotes can beat up your anecdotes.”

Where have I given anecdotes? I just pointed out that the health officials in multiple countries have noticed a new inflammatory disease in children associated with COVID. But I gave up on honest debate here a while ago.

That is a bunch of anecdotes.

"Health Officials" "noticing" shit and talking to the media is the definition of anecdotal evidence.

You also gave up on thinking when you gave up on honest debate.

Achilles said...

I look forward to the first outdoor mass school shooting and the demand that we group our kids up outdoors in "Gun Free Zones."

gilbar said...

Where have I given anecdotes? I just pointed out that the health officials in multiple countries have noticed

so, there you go; TiV doesn't know what an anecdote is, anymore than he knows ANYTHING

either that, or he's just a HUGE LYING Piece...
I want to believe the best of people, so i believe that TiV is COMPLETELY IGNORANT

Jeff Brokaw said...

"You should have quit right there and it would have been an intelligent comment, then you made up a number to support your politics."

No, I speculated on a number based on the obvious connection that if the number of deaths = 1, then the likelihood is very, very high that the number of kids suffering significant lung damage is also almost zero.

Don't agree? Go ahead and disprove it, I'll wait. You may be right. But the likelihood on that is -- again -- almost zero.

It's a numbers issue, not "politics". But now I know how you approach it.

hombre said...

The school reopening problem is teachers who refuse to go to work. Why are they getting paid? Just joking. The teacher’s unions are among the largest contributors to Democrats. More graft. It never stops!

Drago said...

Mike (MJB Wolf): "Tim if you don’t know what a cytokine storm is or what triggers it why are you even here opining in kids?"

To virtue signal and project unearned moral superiority in order to compensate for some "deficit" that exists in his life story.

Its pointless even engaging passionate Biden Backers like tim.

wildswan said...

In Wisconsin you could do outdoor classes eight months of the year if you had electricity right there for computers, and plumbing nearby, and a roof as a sunshield to prevent cancer and protect against rain, and moveable windshields, and a tarp and cushions to shield from wet ground or hot asphalt, and lap desks. Oh, I think it would work as long as you were able to make kids sit still in temperatures down to 40 degrees for six hours a day although unfortunately a lot of the months when outdoor instruction in Wisconsin would be possible - March to October - have already gone by this year. School would be no worse than a Packers game (4 hours) though longer (6 hours) and happening to small children five days a week and boring. Though cables on wet grass might get interesting.

Inga said...

What I’ve seen in my red County is that some of the most vociferous opposers of the mask mandates and the Covid deniers are now becoming infected or have a close friend or relative who has become ill. These people’s Facebook comments go silent.

ALP said...

Put them out in the middle of a closed road and watch the magic happen.
******

Touche!

I did not read this article but have seen that idea floated around. Would it not evetually mean school during the summer months? Imagine the teacher's union response to THAT.

And summer in Wisconsin is not summer in Texas - would the latter close for the extreme heat and open for the milder weather?

mark said...

Anyone that would suggest class outside in the south eastern United States in August lacks perspective. Parking lot asfault gets hot enough to melt.

mark said...

Anyone that would suggest class outside in the south eastern United States in August lacks perspective. Parking lot asfault gets hot enough to melt.

hstad said...

I don't know about you anymore Ann? Another day and you post numerous stories from the NY Times, WaPo, Atlantic, etc. Don't you get tired of posting liberal narratives (frauds) 24/7 from the same discredited sources? Or is it so ingrained in your mind that you accept propoganda wholesale from such disreputable former news organizations. To expand your audience you need to look at other news sources - right?

hstad said...

I don't know about you anymore Ann? Another day and you post numerous stories from the NY Times, WaPo, Atlantic, etc. Don't you get tired of posting liberal narratives (frauds) 24/7 from the same discredited sources? Or is it so ingrained in your mind that you accept propoganda wholesale from such disreputable former news organizations. To expand your audience you need to look at other news sources - right?

Jim at said...

Teachers over 50 should suck it up and get back to work, but asking me to wear a mask is beyond the pale.

Fauci now says we should be wearing goggles. Got yours, Tim?
And what if we should wear gloves, too, Tim? And then a Tyvek suit, Tim? When does it stop, Tim?

Instead of acting like an ass for the last four months whining about people who are actually seeing what's going on, maybe you should start listening to us.

Mark said...

Anyone that would suggest class outside in the south eastern United States in August lacks perspective.

Not another one!

At least he's lower-case "m".

victoria said...

That's nice except for the fact that it is 100 here today and we haven't even gotten to the hottest months of the year in Southern California, September and October. Fry kids, fry.


Vicki from Pasadena

walter said...

I can picture Inga at Walmart chasing down 5 yr olds who stray from their parents w/o mask.

ALP said...

Fresh air in the schools, home and offices, instead of recirculated air is a better idea. Open a freaking window. Get some air circulating and venting out the old contaminated air. Even without it being Flu season, which is what Covid is....a flu virus....we should get fresh air.
*********
This 100X. I do not miss my high rise "robot building" for one nanosecond. Every. Fucking. Thing. Is. Automated.

Doors only open via your key card
Toilets flush via sensor
Soap dispensed via sensor
Water turned on via sensor

Plus stale recirculated air. I had moments when I wanted to throw a chair at a window to bring fresh air in. I don't think I can ever go back to a modern building again.

Nichevo said...

Bruce Hayden said...

Boys aren't like that (on average), and are driven to be much more active. What to do to reconcile this? Drug the boys so that they act like girls. Instead, the boys would do much better if they had a couple recesses a day, where they could run around like wild Indians, burning off their excess energy. Instead, in a lot of schools, recesses have been abolished for any number of reasons...



Thistlerose said...
Well if they really do this it will reduce our rate of childhood obesity.

8/2/20, 9:20 AM



Just so. I wonder if the childhood and lifelong obesity epidemic, so much more harmful than COVID (and contributing to it), may be linked with increased sedentary behaviors, including prominently the suppression of boys' natural impulses to run and play.

victoria said...

Does this person realize that, in Southern California, the hottest months of the year are September and October, often in excess of 100 degrees. and please, don't give me that bull that it is a dry heat, and that is so much better. Hot is hot, not conducive to anything but napping. And, considering what is going on in Riverside County, the idea of sitting outside in temperatures in excess of 100 and smoke filling the air is just ludicrous.

Vicki from Pasadena (Where it will be over 100 today)

mikee said...

I, for one, oppose roasting small children on the asphalt of Texas roadways in September. Or even October. And sometimes not November. December you might could try, but it rains more then. January might be too cold. February is probably OK. March has seen 100F weather here in Austin. April - nah, they'll be stuck to the roadway with second degree burns. June, July, August - just shoot the kids instead of torturing them with hot roads.

Francisco D said...

Inga said...
What I’ve seen in my red County is that some of the most vociferous opposers of the mask mandates and the Covid deniers are now becoming infected or have a close friend or relative who has become ill. These people’s Facebook comments go silent.

I cannot decide if you are easily fooled, delusional or an intentional liar.

I will go with easily fooled and we can leave the intentional lying to ARM.

stevew said...

My MIL, a resident of FL, informs me that September and October are unbearably hot and humid. Sane people do not venture outdoors during that time - if they do it is to go from air conditioning to the car, or the car to air conditioning. Good luck keeping kids attention in those circumstances.

Unknown said...

Call me when you have no class. - Rodney Dangerfield

n.n said...

Dutch Government Issues Shocking Announcement About COVID Masks

There is no clinical evidence to support wearing masks. The typical mask is not suitable for casual and continued use. Also, beware perspiration, which collects and directs a viral load to your eyes, nose, and mouth.

That said, Sweden's infection and disease rates remain progressive (i.e. declining).

Inga said...

“I can picture Inga at Walmart chasing down 5 yr olds who stray from their parents w/o mask.”

I wouldn’t take a step into a Walmart. I wear my mask and steer clear of those who are stupid enough to not wear theirs in buildings. If most people in the store aren’t wearing one, I’ll turn around and go elsewhere. With online shopping, I rarely have to step into a brick and mortar store. I don’t miss shopping in person, I never really enjoyed it even before Covid.

walter said...

Blogger mikee said...
I, for one, oppose roasting small children on the asphalt of Texas roadways in September
--
I hear you get great results with a Traeger.

Inga said...

And I don’t approach stranger’s children. I wouldn’t want strangers speaking to my grandchildren either.

Inga said...

“I don't know about you anymore Ann? Another day and you post numerous stories from the NY Times, WaPo, Atlantic, etc. Don't you get tired of posting liberal narratives (frauds) 24/7 from the same discredited sources? Or is it so ingrained in your mind that you accept propoganda wholesale from such disreputable former news organizations. To expand your audience you need to look at other news sources - right?”

What audience would Althouse get should she link to rightist publications only? She already has a 99% rightist commentariat. Maybe you want her to get some more white nationalists or maybe some now Nazi’s, is that far enough right for you?

Inga said...

Neo, not now.

walter said...

Man, you are easy to troll. Unsurprisingly.
But added bonus you don't give a shit about local economy.

ga6 said...

Inga flagging ????

ga6 said...

Vicki from Pasadena: now tell Inga about the Santa Anas...

Nichevo said...

I will go with easily fooled and we can leave the intentional lying to ARM.


It would be best to do so, as he uses up everybody else's quota.

gilbar said...

Poor Igna doesn't realize that Walmart REQUIRES masks, and said...
I wouldn’t take a step into a Walmart. I wear my mask and steer clear

I feel sad for you Igna, i really do. May GOD bless you

The Godfather said...

Let's open the schools with a mix of on-site and remote classes (as is being proposed here I live), and do that for the first semester. That will prove so unpopular that there will be a tsunami of support for resuming normal schooling.

daskol said...

This is more about higher ed than the primary or secondary school, but it amounts a scathing indictment of our approach to education. We really should scrap the whole thing and start over, and people of means and/or creativity are doing that with increased home and pod-schooling remote/in-person hybrid regimes.

This suggests that Americans are socialized into learning to keep their mouth shut: the longer you spend in the educational system, the more you learn that it is appropriate to express some views, but not others.

I really don't want my kids to learn that, or even care too much if the boys learn to sit still and silent and maintain politeness throughout any sort of boredom. The people who are good at doing that are often timid to begin with. I'm around a lot of highly intelligent and educated timid people these days, having sold out to a large multinational. These are the kind of people turned out by extensive exposure to our education system, and while they're perfectly fine people, it's a mistake to create a production line that turns so many of us into that.

I have frequently stated to people in my life and here that this obsession with microscopic death is anomalous and temporary, that as humans we think big not tiny, and that we'll snap out of this temporary OCD-germaphobia quicker than may seem possible given how widespread it is. I still think that. But if the catastrophe we've created, the destruction we've wrought is to be turned to our advantage, if we can make it creative destruction, if we can kill higher ed and secondary schooling models dead in just a single year, and let a thousand points of light bloom or however the expression goes, we will have come out alright I think.

Balfegor said...

As noted above, this won't work for the urban areas that have been most heavily affected by corona. But in suburban and rural areas, this could work for lower grades. Suburban schools, at least where I grew up in Southern California, typically have large, enclosed playgrounds where schools could set up tents. Children would probably have to help with daily disinfection and moving desks to and from storage every day, but for September/October, I would think this would be fine. In colder climes and in colder weather, the solution from Fall on would have to involve masks and filter upgrades on the air conditioning and heating system. That would be expensive, but probably less expensive than paying parents unemployment so they can stay at home to watch their young children.

For higher grades (those old enough to be left home alone), remote learning is probably still viable, although we'll probably see astronomical levels of truancy.

stlcdr said...

Blogger victoria said...
That's nice except for the fact that it is 100 here today and we haven't even gotten to the hottest months of the year in Southern California, September and October. Fry kids, fry.


Vicki from Pasadena

8/2/20, 2:37 PM


Hmmm. It is a sticky wicket, isn't it? We need to do X, but have to change the environment to where performing X is almost impossible. But, X still needs to be done. How do we do it?

It would be nice to have a place where we learn how to solve such problems...

hstad said...

Inga says...Aug 2, 2020, 4:09 PM... "...What audience would Althouse get should she link to rightist publications only?..." Did I say "rightest publications..?" Or is your English comprehension poor? But that's not the problem, right Inga, you then 'jump the shark' with your outright propoganda B.S. by saying..."...She already has a 99% rightist commentariat. Maybe you want her to get some more white nationalists or maybe some now Nazi’s, is that far enough right for you?..."

Inga you need to chill! If not - your stress will cause you health problems. There are thousands of excellent news sources some of them Liberal. My comment to Ann was simple, she [probably as a former academic- habitual] focuses heavily on Northeastern news sources. BTW, she's not unique in that endeavor. I used to get most of my news from NY Times, etc., when I lived in NYC. But because you, Inga, have this blinder on and need affirmation of your opinions, my comments went right over your head. Propaganda tends to do that to people. Once you spout lies, your mind has a very difficult time keeping them all straight.