August 16, 2020

"There are many people who are voting for Trump who are in environments where it’s politically untenable to admit it because he’s become so toxic."

"But I’m still not convinced that not telling your business associate or the people in your Rotary Club or the people in your country club is the same thing as not telling a pollster," said Whit Ayres, a Republican pollster, quoted in "'Hidden' Trump Voters Exist. But How Much Impact Will They Have?/Republicans insist that millions of Americans want to vote for Trump but won’t admit it. Polling experts tell a different story" (NYT)
“The idea that people lie, it’s an interesting theory, and it’s not like it’s completely off-the-wall,” said David Winston, a pollster who works with congressional Republicans. “But it’s obviously a very complicated thing to try to prove because what do you do? Ask them, ‘Are you lying?’”...

If voters were indeed afraid of voicing their support for the president, Mr. Winston said [there would be] an uptick in the percentage of undecided voters rather than a rise in support for Mr. Biden....

While the effects of a hidden Trump vote are certainly overstated by the president’s allies, that does not mean that no evidence exists that polls are missing some of his voters. A small percentage of his support is probably being undercounted, and has been in the past, public opinion experts said. And in states like North Carolina, where the margin of victory could be narrow, the undercount could make a difference between a poll being right or wrong.

[Neil Newhouse, a Republican who led Mitt Romney’s polling in 2012, said that in 2016] Mr. Trump tended to score 2 or 3 points higher in phone surveys when respondents were asked to press a button to record their preferences rather than talk to a live person. In postelection polling, when he asked people if they had ever been unwilling to talk about their vote, 35 percent of Trump voters said yes. And they tended to be women from Democratic-leaning counties.

Mr. Newhouse has picked up further evidence of such reluctance recently. In polls he conducted late last month in North Carolina and Iowa, he found that one-quarter to one-third of voters answered “yes” when asked if they knew someone who is voting for Mr. Trump but would not say so to anyone but their closest friends.

“This totally confirms the notion of ‘shy Trump voters,’” Mr. Newhouse said. But, he added, if polls are undercounting some Trump voters — a group that tends to be uniquely expressive and adamant about their support for the president — no one can say by how much....
I question that last parenthetical — Trump voters are "a group that tends to be uniquely expressive and adamant about their support for the president." That's denying the issue the polling experts were talking about! Some Trump voters are vocal, and among the vocal Trump supporters there's a tendency to be expressive. But the point is that there are other people — who knows how many? — who believe there are social and economic consequences to being seen as a Trump supporter. That's a different group, and it's a group defined by its tendency not to be expressive about supporting Trump.

Why was that parenthetical thrown in? I think it's because the NYT wants to give its readers the comfort of thinking Trump is on a losing path. The article seems to have been written with the idea of debunking the notion that there's a big hidden Trump vote. Just tell the story straight!

219 comments:

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Static Ping said...

When it comes to interviewing Republican pollsters, there are two things to keep in mind:

1. Polling is their job. They want to get paid. Admitting that they do not do a good job capturing reality is a good way to become unemployed. (Quite a few people who help run political campaigns are purely mercenary.)

2. If I was a Republican pollster and I detected that the polls were wrong, there were a significant number of hidden Republican voters, and the Democrats had apparently not figured that out, I would keep that to myself. The last people I would tell would be the New York Times.

Sydney said...

Re: You Tube ads. I don't watch much You Tube but I noticed that the internet ads showing up on my web browsing are all Biden ads. Also, I am getting Biden ads in my Facebook feed. I don't believe I have ever seen political ads in my Facebook feed before. There is certainly nothing about me that would make an algorithm think I want to see any political ads, let alone Biden ads. I should mark them as inappropriate.

Nichevo said...

Does anything think that leftists even DISCUSS politics among themselves? If so, how do they follow Hillary over the cliff and then end up four years later with the one politician who is most like her as a candidate?


It's all "Biden sucks and I believe Tara Reade but I'm still voting for him. Dissent only helps Trump!"

Paco Wové said...

"I should mark them as inappropriate."

Yes. I do. I also spend less and less time on Facebook.

stlcdr said...

bagoh20 said...
There are thousands of people tweeting how disappointed they are that the wrong Trump died yesterday.

Yep, no reason to lie about supporting him. These are the good people, compassionate and caring who would wish you dead for you politics, and Trump is the toxic one? Hiding your support for Trump is probably the default position for most of us, unless we are with people we trust.

8/16/20, 11:51 AM


This is exactly right. There is a very real threat of physical harm if you express any inkling of supporting Trump (it’s not even supporting him, just mentioning how good things have actually been is grounds for being exposed to threatening behavior).

Jersey Fled said...

The $10/hr poll taker may not care who you vote for but the people selecting who gets polled do. For example, Panetta directed friendly polling companies to over sample independents in the Tampa area because statistically they tend to lean Democrat. Thus making Florida numbers look more Democrat.

It's in the hacked 2016 DNC emails that Wikileaks released.

Do you think the Democrats and their Siamese twins the Democrats aren't fudging the polls?

Robert Cook said...

Decent people are ashamed to admit they will vote for Donald Trump.

Robert Cook said...

"The NYT: I despise, detest, and distrust the NYT (and its little dog WaPoo, too!)"

Got it! You're not a rich Upper East Sider. You can stop virtue signalling now.

stlcdr said...

Blogger rehajm said...
...to Trump's undelivered promises.

I'm old enough to remember when building the wall and 3 percent growth were promises Trump would never deliver.

Good times...

8/16/20, 2:13 PM


“It was just a debate! A debate! [cackle, cackle, cackle!]”

Robert Cook said...

"If somehow I got blindsided by a pollster, I'd lie. I don't want to lose my job."

How would your employer knew you had even been polled, much less what your answers were?

Todd said...

"There are many people who are voting for Trump who are in environments where it’s politically untenable to admit it because he’s become so toxic."

LOL!

The cognitive dissonance on display at times boggles the mind...

Todd said...

Robert Cook said...

Decent people are ashamed to admit they will vote for Donald Trump.

8/17/20, 7:38 AM


Decent people are afraid that they will get beat up, fired, their cars keyed, their families attached, hit in the head with bike locks, shouted down, have concrete milkshakes thrown at them, blackballed, and have 24/7 protests/riots on their front lawns.

Have you been in a coma for that last few years?

buwaya said...

People who claim to be "decent" are edging close to the sin of pride.
Or even those who "identify" as decent.

A proper education should have stuck it in well and good that we are all sinners.
Judge your own acts and thoughts by that.
If you are bothered by it go to confession.

It is a fallen world and therefore it is rarely clear what the moral position is.
Whatever it is, it is unlikely to be exactly that which makes one feel good about himself.

buwaya said...

Mechanism - just one set of scenarios, there may be others.

- many polling outfits are in bed with political parties, openly or tacitly/under the table (as can be seen in the DNC and Podesta emails), or if not so directly, most of the people involved in organizing and analyzing polling can be assumed to be left or Democrat aligned. You have no idea how it goes with the polling outfit that is calling you.

- Data can be leaked. Databases can be transferred quite easily. This can be done deliberately by the management of the polling outfit, or by one of those politically aligned people working directly with the data.

- We know for a fact that there are headhunter and HR and professional lists around, for executive/management/professional employment. Just one sort of list mind you, I know of these specifically. These are "blackball" lists or "concerns" lists. Part of background check for hiring, etc. Among others, people who violated NDA's, sued an employer, have red flags on social media, etc. It goes way beyond the FBI database check.

- It would be extremely easy to crosstab vs polling databases as these are vs other databases. Thats one way these things get generated.

- Every major American institution including nearly all major corporations are dominated by left-aligned management, or management that feels it must kowtow. They certainly dont want "controversial" hires.

Paranoia is a necessity. Thats another reason I am here, retired, and not there.

Bruce Hayden said...

Probably should be posted in the USPS thread, but the (fairly militant) Postal workers’ union has endorsed Biden/Harris. To put it all together, the Dems, led by Palsi and Schemer in Congress, are demanding that the 2020 Presidential election be conducted by mail-in ballots, to be processed by workers whose union has endorsed the Dem candidates: Biden and Harris. Moreover, the same Biden/Harris endorsing Union would be processing the ballots that potentially could keep Palsi as Speaker, and make Schemer Senate Majority leader.

I think that it stinks to high heaven.

Clues? said...

Robert Cook said...
“Decent people are ashamed to admit they will vote for Donald Trump.“
8/17/20, 7:38 AM

Ahh, so open bigotry against American voters is a winning formula? Please continue. Consider the world your echo chamber and shout your wisdom for all of us to hear and learn.

Anonymous said...

>It does not help the reputation of pollsters when we get polls out in May/June of adults (not even registered voters) where the sample is 50% Democrat.

Yea, newspaper polls are created to push a narrative. The real (i.e., actually relied upon) polls are kept secret.

bbkingfish said...

"Do you think the Democrats and their Siamese twins the Democrats aren't fudging the polls?"

We're talking about two different things.

1.) You are talking about the integrity of the polling. If you read the entirety of what I wrote, I said that I have been lying to pollsters for over 20 years. I think you should be able to figure out from that how I feel about polling.

2.) I was talking (in the part of my comment to which you object) about whether the pollsters care about the individuals they poll. They do not.

Leon Panetta may or may not want a friendly pollster to include more Democrats in a polling sample. Jared Kushner may or may not want more Republicans included. Neither Leon nor Jared gives a fig about how you, or I, vote as an individual. Or anything else about us personally, for that matter. In my opinion.

ballpeenX said...

Please be gentle I'm new here.
I am much more likely to deliberately lie to a pollster than I am to a coworker. I have some kind of ongoing relationship with coworkers, even ones that I disagree with. Pollsters are parasites.

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