Here's a fragment of the photograph to show the "gesture and demeanor" I wanted to describe:
I said (jocosely): "I could only think of 'mansplaining.' Is there a word 'whitesplaining'?"
In the comments, Fernandistein said, "It's a standard gesture for politicians and other salesmen" — linking to "7 Hand Gestures to Get People to Listen to You."
All 7 gestures are depicted with a stylized image of a white man. The closest one to Biden's is this:
Biden's gesture is actually more open, but it's so open it reads as more of shrug, more What the hell am I supposed to do about it?
But anyway... I thought the "7 Hand Gestures to Get People to Listen to You" could just as well have been titled "7 Hand Gestures for Mansplaining." And, of course, Fernandistein observed, these are standard gestures for politicians and other salesmen.
It's the standardness that makes it useful to have the word "mansplaining." It's why mansplaining is worth talking about openly. You see so damned much of it.
Yeah, it may work to fix people into listening mode, even as then they wonder why am I listening to this guy and when is this going to end and what can I possibly do to regain my agency in this interaction.
The term "mansplaining" helps the listener. It's like when you're dreaming and and you find a way to realize you're in a dream, and that makes it a lucid dream, and you gain powers of your own and can do things you want and serve your own interests.
If you find yourself in thrall to one of these men who've gotten you to listen — with their hand gestures and words and whatnot — if you can think "mansplaining," then you've acquired the kind of consciousness you have in a lucid dream. You can think: Now, what do I want to do?
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96 comments:
The term "mansplaining" helps the listener.
Yes. It helps the listener know that men are bad, and bullying even in their language, and if you are a woman you are to see men as bad and perhaps call the police on them when they are doing things you don't like.
The 'gestures' also work very well when seducing women. For what it's worth...
Biden's hand gesture has a hint of frustration in it. "What more can I do to get you to understand?" And yes, there is a term "whitesplaining." A racist term hitchhiking on the popularity of the sexist term "mansplaining," it appeared on twitter (and elsewhere, probably) soon after.
Shorter, less discursive Althouse: I know "mansplaining" when I see it.
Stop all this whitewomansplaining.
I say this while gesticulating with my hands wildly. Like this: https://youtu.be/JC4C_Gcp_dM
When you are lying, be open, hold your arms out, and your palms open to show people how you are being open and honest, even when you are lying.
Of course you need not possess a penis to be a mansplainer, as every Karen knows.
If the usage of those gestures can be usefully categorized as "mansplaining", could they still considered so if a women employs them?
There are ways to express thoughts that are condescending and insulting to the listener. To give those undesirable methods of communication an essentialist racial or gender term is going to poison discourse even more than it already is. Blacksplaining, anyone?
How about just characterizing condescension and insult as condescension and insult? Is that not enough for social media?
Sister Comrade Ann has got it going on.
There is mansplaining. And then there is annsplaining, in which Ann explains mansplaining.
Next up is discourse on manspreading. Which is what Joe Biden is doing with his hands in that picture. He is usually using them to fondle the girl, so this is a gesture that should induce relief to all viewers. I will spread my hands to show I am open and you can trust me. Now if I sit and spread my legs . . .
This is why it's important to read books on persuasion techniques, like Cialdini's, even if you have no interest in persuading others. It alerts you to the techniques, natural and learned, that others use to manipulate you. By the criteria established in this post, I've been mansplained to by women.
Mansplained to, or mansplained at?
Mansplaining is part of the female perceptive apparatus for when a man is going on about something women aren't interested in knowing, say something about structure.
Animals have tail gestures as well.
That, of course, is the point of all buzzwords -- like the political equivalent of a religious mantra.
When the arguments of the other side begin to make us question our beliefs, we can always fall back on the calming slogans that remind us that those other guys just want to kill children and kick puppies, and our skeptical reasoning minds can be lulled back to sleep.
Fishtales.
Sigh.
Look Professor. It's not that complicated.
Mansplaining happens when a virus in the brain is activated. Okay?
The term mansplaining annoys me, because it is so innacurate. Women have the idea that when men "mansplain" something to them that it is because they are a woman and the man is talking down to them for that reason. I would like to assure women, that men "mansplain" to other men too.
A man might explain something in a condescending way. But it is not because they are sexist to women; it is because they are annoying to everyone.
Trump has transcended mansplaining by perfecting cuntsplaining. The key to success is to know your fan base. This is the genius of the Donald.
I'm being open...
...Use it when you want to be fully transparent
At which point we can discount the opinions of the person who wrote this.
The point is not to use it when you want to be fully transparent. The point is to use it when you want the person you are talking to to believe that you are being fully transparent.
Do you need the open hands gesture when you are being open and honest or are they more important when you are not?
Mansplaining is such a hurtful term.
Consider: Here I am, occupying a position of white male privilege. When women are kind enough to provide me, as they are wont to do, at great length, the valuable, valuable gift of their perspectives, their opinions, their thoughts, am I merely to be a taker?
Of course not! So I give, in return, the gift of myself, the greatest gift I have to offer. And this gift is SCORNED! REJECTED!
If you prick me, do I not bleed?
I am the real victim here.
is there any category before the suffix 'splaining' that is OK?
who makes that determination, by what criteria?
'Cisplaining' yes, 'transplaining' no?
"these are standard gestures for politicians and other salesmen. It's the standardness that makes it useful to have the word "mansplaining.""
Makes it useful how -- to recognize all standard gestures are common forms of mansplaining, or to distinguish particular variations on the standard as specifically involving mansplaining? The former doesn't make sense: lots of women use the standard gestures in the same way, them being standard and all. The latter could make sense but would need clearer criteria: what use of standard gestures make them mansplaining?
"The term "mansplaining" helps the listener."
The female listener. In roughly similar circumstances, the term that helps male listeners is j**k or a**hole.
Anyway, mansplaining is all in the eye of the sensitive female beholder eager to score points and assert her moral superiority. He explained, with all the sensitivity he could muster.
Supposedly Bill Clinton tested several different handshakes before settling on the right hand handshake plus left hand grasp of the forearm that he eventually settled on.
He's rolled his hands outward a little. That's what gets you from sincere to the shrug
The thing about using hand gestures when talking is that it is either natural or faked.
You can't help using hand gestures when talking if they are natural to you. It just happens...comes naturally. Like the video of that little Italian girl talking with her hands that was posted here recently.
However, people can tell when you are faking it. Don't even try if you aren't a natural.
Mansplaining is an offensive word used by people whose only desire is to censor the speech of people who identify as males in a harassing manner. It should never be used. Use of words such as "self-identified expert of no actual qualification" or "big mouthed idiot" are the preferred descriptors of people who presume to explain that which need not be explained, to people who already understand the subject under discussion. At a previous workplace, we called this behavior "Daving" after Dave, the resident expert (in his own mind) on all things ever.
Here it is..Italian girl talking with her hands
I bet no one is going to be mansplaining anything to her...ever. 😉
You all have to go easy on Slow Joe. As Senator and VP Biden used his gestures to get into position to steal a feel or a warm breathing sniff and kiss. And he is too old to learn new tricks. So just lie back and think of the Democrat Party.
Mansplaining and manspreading -- Joe's hands have a wide stance here -- and maybe manurespreading, too.
I wonder how many people who use the "I believe in science" line refer to it as "mansplaining" or "whitesplaining" when somebody uses "science" and statistics against them.
"Of course you need not possess a penis to be a mansplainer, as every Karen knows."
"Karens" are not explaining. They are intimidating by referring to a man they hold sway with who they're going to get to help them out — the manager, the police. It's a weak, desperate position, which is why they make the mistake of going too far. It's a weakness/strength clusterfuck.
Animals have tail gestures as well.
A sharp snap from side to side would explain the mood this topic garners.
Today, on FrontPage.com, Newsom 'has a big idea'? (bailing out illegal aliens) https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2020/05/california-tried-bail-out-illegal-aliens-and-its-daniel-greenfield/
"Karen" was a meme too far. An editor would have changed it to "as every 'splainer knows" to be more inclusive and on-topic.
Is it "I'm being open" or "I have a big idea"? The illustrations are similar. Do you remember Joe Biden's big idea in his response to Kamala Harris in that debate? I do. It was about being open to work with people you often don't agree with.
"Yeah, it may work to fix people into listening mode, even as then they wonder why am I listening to this guy and when is this going to end and what can I possibly do to regain my agency in this this interaction."
Says a woman who for many years was employed in the 'splaining business (and now does it in a different form for the sheer pleasure of the thing). So what gestures or other forms of presentation did you use to wake them up if they started to nod off? Profsplaining, anyone? Put yourself in the position of a 20-something student in one of her classes, listening to all that 'splaining and wondering what he could possible do to regain his agency in that interaction. Not much, I suspect.
This post sounds even weirder coming in present circumstances, where we're all expected to remain fixed in the 'listening mode' as the experts drone on with all that 'splaining about the virus and how we all have to radically change how we live. Gestures, tone, whatever to get the audience to listen and submit. Try to regain your agency in that interaction if you dare. And, speaking of experts, I saw this in today's NY Post (nice to know they all are on the same page):
The World Health Organization is recommending healthy people, including those who don’t exhibit COVID-19 symptoms, only wear masks when taking care of someone infected with the contagion, a sharp contrast from the advice given by American public health officials who recommend everyone wear a mask in public.
“If you do not have any [respiratory] symptoms such as fever, cough or runny nose, you do not need to wear a mask,” Dr. April Baller, a public health specialist for the WHO, says in a video on the world health body’s website. “Masks should only be used by health care workers, caretakers or by people who are sick with symptoms of fever and cough.”
The recommendation differs from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), which urges individuals to wear a mask or face covering in public settings, regardless of infection, to limit the spread of the virus.
How is it that there is no "womansplaining"? It's DISCRIMONATION!!!!!!!111111!!!!!!!
"Karens" are not explaining. They are intimidating by referring to a man they hold sway with who they're going to get to help them out — the manager, the police. It's a weak, desperate position, which is why they make the mistake of going too far. It's a weakness/strength clusterfuck.
There you go, assuming that managers and cops are all men. Very sexist of you.
Karen (1)
Mongoloid people of Burma, 1759 (as Carian), from Burmese ka-reng "wild, dirty, low-caste man" [OED].
Karen (2)
fem. proper name, Danish shortened form of Katherine. Rare before 1928; a top-10 name for girls born in the U.S. 1951-1968.
- etymonline.com
When was "karen" appropriated for other purposes? We lose more good words, and names, with social progress.
The utility of an insult or a reproach has a lot to do with how well it can be employed incorrectly. If you are a woman dealing with an arrogant or condescending man, you can charge him with mansplaining when he doesn't listen to your point of view. If you are an arrogant and condescending woman and a man doesn't give in to your point of view you can charge him with mansplaining. If a man is a know-it-all: mansplaining. If a man doesn't acknowledge that you know it all: mansplaining. It works like that with most successful insults.
P.S. It looks like the Cuomo show might actually be preempted today. Shame it took Minnesota burning to do it. Probably Andrew will just reschedule.
@BarrySanders, LOL on "annsplaining". Don't get me wrong, I like the way Ann explains things...but that really should be a tag on this blog.
Bob Boyd at 10:14 a.m. wins the internet humor trophy for May 29th, 2020.
And Steven has the best comment in the thread.
Whenever I read the term "mansplain", I think about how many times I have been told about how to use the dishwasher correctly.
When I think of Joe Biden and "hand gestures" in the same context, I think of.........
Blogger Chris said...
When you are lying, be open, hold your arms out, and your palms open to show people how you are being open and honest, even when you are lying.
5/29/20, 9:43 AM
My first thought exactly.
AA: ""Karens" are not explaining. They are intimidating by referring to a man they hold sway with who they're going to get to help them out — the manager, the police.."
Bang. You're all dead. Althouse just hit the subtext, "...who they're going to get to help them out..."
Remember, 'Karen' can not do this on her own, she is fundamentally a powerless character both by choice and by design. She was brought up in a society that literally does everything for her, more so she has come to expect and demand society...someone...continue the status-quo. She has been brought up this way because she is A) white and B) has a vagina. She is, with that exception, largely worthless. She can vote, but her wonderwoman (Hillary) lost in 2016. Things are looking very very bad for her right now.
The world's smallest violin is playing. I'm fresh out of f*cks to give for her and the sisterhood.
"OK, Boomer" better than 'Boomersplaining'?
Whole lotta Gynolyzing.
Mansplaining is a sexist term. I don't particularly care. Can we call the act of whining about mansplaining 'womplaining?'
"He mansplained to me!" she womplained.
I think it's more elegant as it doesn't require an additional consonant to mimic the pronunciation of 'explained' in the way 'mansplained' does.
I've got a gesture for all statists. I've got it right here.
The other week I woke up while I was still dreaming. Although this may have happened a time or two before, this is an uncommon event in my life.
The dream didn't seem to have any significance. Nothing was happening. I wasn't trying to do anything and I felt at peace. I was watching some very gentle ripples move across the sand. The sand and water sparkled. Everything seemed real. I could hear the sound. The part of me that had woken was trying to figure out what the difference was between what the dreaming me was seeing and actual reality. Visually it seemed identical.
Do I need to mansplain this to you? Biden is holding a big, imaginary fish. Lucid dreaming, as it were.
Karen, cis, Miss Annie, redneck, trailer trash, cracker, white trash, hick, hayseed, hillbilly, honky, clay-eater, Bible-thumper.
Shame it took Minnesota burning to do it.
"Justice for George", they say. Selective, opportunistic... social justice is a first-order forcing of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Change.
okay, fun story, from earlier this month!
I took my 60 year old cousin Todd, who is a network engineer from Austin Tx, flyfishing with me in Wyoming. While driving up from the Denver Airport; i mentioned something about how you could tell the price of oil, by how many Wyoming oil wells you saw pumping (higher price, more wells); and that with the oil price crash, we wouldn't see many (any) pumping.
Cousin Todd 'explained' to me; that "when you stop pumping an oil well, you Can't restart it" [which directly contradicts my personal observations]. He then went on, for about 5 minutes; about 'how the oil business works'
I thought at the time; "If i was a woman, i'd say he's mansplaining to me"
Later on, we had dinner (dine in!) at a restaurant in Casper with my friends Leah and Kyle. When i introduced them to my cousin, i mentioned that Kyle had been working on oil rigs... for the last ten years.
Sure enough; my cousin Todd (the network engineer [FROM TEXAS!]) then took the next 5 minutes, explaining the oil extraction business to Kyle (the experienced roughneck)
so... Serious Question
does it count as "manplaining", when a guy that is a network engineer tells an guy that is an experienced oilfield worker, about 'how they dig oil wells' ????
I don't call it mansplaining, i call it being a total asshole
ps. during Todd's lecture to Kyle; Kyle repeatedly made eye contact with me and rolled his eyes. I got the impression that this was NOT the first time this had happened
FWIW, "Rose Leadem" mansplained the hand gestures.
Do teh google image on hillary clinton hand gestures scroll down a bit and she's making essentially the same gesture, though her most common one (of those shown, anyway) seems to be pointing. Also open hands toward audience, like she's yelling "Hallelujah!".
stevew said...
Do you need the open hands gesture when you are being open and honest or are they more important when you are not?
sincerity, THAT is The Key! Once you can fake That; You have Got it Made!!
"Hold on one second there, sweetie,"
That is how you start mansplaining.
you need not possess a penis to be a mansplainer
This. But to be fair, one no longer needs to possess a penis to be a man, so I guess the corollary is obvious. A penis-endowed individual can be "bitchy", too.
(eaglebeak)
Agree with Clark. Mansplaining seems sexist--a way of invalidating whatever the man is going to say before he says it. Just like using nagging or the equivalent to undermine a woman before she speaks.
The other non-physical gesture way of indicating you are lying is to introduce your commentary with, "let me be honest with you".
Howard said...
Trump has transcended mansplaining by perfecting cuntsplaining. The key to success is to know your fan base. This is the genius of the Donald.
Hey Howie, your shit is weak lately. Desperation? It's like you're just phoning it in.
Mansplaining is real. Ask any woman accountant. Her male colleagues are treated quite differently by older men. If you interrupt, people will perceive you as a bitch, if you nod, people will perceive you as subservient. Best technique is to ask a question and provide a suggested answer that he needs to agree with or dispute in a factual way.
Ms Althouse has put her finger on what is annoying about the Karens.
Poor Meade...having to go through life in a state of catatonia, lest he trigger Miss Ann with open hand gestures.
And then...the whip comes down...
A man might explain something in a condescending way. But it is not because they are sexist to women; it is because they are annoying to everyone.
Yeah, it's done by women and men alike. When I think of all the people who've given me annoying and excessive and condescending explanations, I'm thinking of all sorts of different people — different genders, ages, etc. For instance, a woman around my age once went on and on insisting she was right about a legal point that she knew from writing a college paper; I found it implausible, but could hardly get a word in to express my thoughts and experience on the topic. At that point I was a law school graduate, and she hadn't been to law school. (Sorry for the vague story, but I avoid going into legal analyses online.) So it isn't limited to one gender. If someone wants to say it's done more often by men to women than any other combination, I'll hear them out. What I'm not open to is calling out one gender in the very name for it, because that seems to rule out the possibility that anyone can be the perpetrator, or victim.
That's all accepting the idea that people are using the word in good faith to refer to a specifically bad way of talking. In practice, the word is often used in bad faith, as a euphemistic way to say "I disagree with you so shut up."
I also don't like or use words that seem like they're specifically insulting women, like "bitching," no matter what argument could be made that it's somehow gender-neutral.
“If you find yourself in thrall to one of these men “
There was another topic in this post——tiresome conversations. Perhaps the term “button hole” will come back because of its proximity to “butt hole” , which we didn’t used to say in “mixed company.”
Gilbar said “ I don't call it mansplaining, i call it being a total asshole”.
See how it’s all coming together?
OMG ANN? Gesturing is "mansplaining"? WTH, have you been overseas Ann? Majority of cultures use gestures are well documented in fact that you can't communicate effectively without gestures. I just want to stop here and say what 'Jean-Francois Revel' said: "A screen has been fashioned through which our contemporary age reads its filtered information..."
Think about this Ann!
How does someone explaining their take on a thing take away MY agency? I am a woman and I don’t understand this. Maybe it’s just a the perception of old white women and their young brainwashed “feminists”. “Look at that guy TALKING! How dare he tell me his views on this issue! As a woman I am so weak and stupid I can’t form my own ideas if someone else has told me theirs!”
Mansplaining is real. Ask any woman accountant.
I just did exactly that, via chat at work. Her response: "Mansplaining isn't really a thing here. I get treated much worse by [older, female accountant] than by any of the older guys like [older male accountant]. And as you know we don't hire new male accountants."
So, I guess Leonora is incorrect, but YMMV.
With Biden it’s more like “Come on, man”-splaining.
A particular breed unto itself.
hstad said...
OMG ANN? Gesturing is "mansplaining"? WTH, have you been overseas Ann? Majority of cultures use gestures are well documented in fact that you can't communicate effectively without gestures.
Didn't Althouse do a post in the last few weeks about that little Italian girl who is gesticulating all over? Or was that elsewhere?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5wAWyqDrnc
Accusing someone of mansplaining sounds like a good way of making an ad hominem attack, rather than responding to the substance of their argument, but doing so in a way that's not exactly personal. Intellectually dishonest, but kinda' polite.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
Here it is..Italian girl talking with her hands
in a few years, when she decides to transition to male
...she's in a merda-load of trouble
The real issue is Biden's repeated condescending racism. And you folks are all fixated on some silly tiff about the idea of mansplaining.
More than once Massa Joe has treated black folks like children. Most recently when he explained to blacks what it really meant to be black.
Of course, if he does pick a black woman running mate, there is a good chance he will present her as articulate and bright and clean. And when he put that uppity nappy-haired Corn Pop in his place.
The worst kind of -splaining is ex-plaining.
so... Serious Question
does it count as "manplaining", when a guy that is a network engineer tells an guy that is an experienced oilfield worker, about 'how they dig oil wells' ????
I don't call it mansplaining, i call it being a total asshole
----------==========
Bloomberg teaching how to grow crops
Some of you don’t seem to notice the special way men have of locking a woman into hearing him lecture endlessly. It’s a male display, intended to impress the woman, and women are often part of the dynamic, wanting to display admiration or respect but quietly feeling burdened and even subordinated. When this is happening, it would be good if either or both of them found the self-awareness and will to shift to a more balanced and amusing form of conversation.
I’m not saying women never talk too much or over explain. I’m just saying there’s a classic dynamic that is about gender.
"You can think: Now, what do I want to do?"
Obviously, you want to do it wrong.😛
What about "Lucy, you've got some 'splaining to do!" ?
That's what I'd like to know.
When you are lying, be open, hold your arms out, and your palms open to show people how you are being open and honest, even when you are lying.
I tried that, that one time, and it didn't work, but maybe because I was staring down at my feet and mumbling.
Some of you don’t seem to notice the special way men have of locking a woman into hearing him lecture endlessly.
Maybe some of you don't seem to notice the special way women have of getting locked onto listening to a man*.
But not endlessly of course, because that can't happen.
*
"Hey baby, want to come out to my garage to see my miniature supercharged V8 engine?" Of course she does!
Sex, gender, diversity, and politics.
"I could only think of 'mansplaining.' Is there a word 'whitesplaining'?"
How about “klansplaining”?
Maybe, Senator Biden was simply mansplaining some important point about the Dingell-Norwood Bill to Tara Reade, when he accidentally grabbed her by the pussy.
In my Irish Catholic household my mother was in charge. Mansplaining was not - I repeat, not - part of the dynamic. There was a look, I can see it in my mind's eye, that told me my views and opinions were unwelcome. I was taught to treat others as I wanted to be treated. This has worked very well so far.
If Biden, and anyone else we want to discuss, is guilty of mansplaining, which I don't doubt he is, then it is all about assertion of dominance and control. Those are not leadership qualities. People do not want to follow such people.
I’ve only recently had the experience of lucid dreaming and it was quite limited. Twice in recent weeks I’ve found myself in dream scenarios that were not plausible, and “I” in the dream realized this, and then thought “Aha, this is a dream!” But then instead of having any agency to create different plot twists in the dream, it just kept going for a little while and then I woke up and laughed.
In neither case did the dream involve anything frightening or bad, but rather just bizarre and illogical things happening. It’s a novel experience for me to recognize this during the dream though.
AA said:
I’m not saying women never talk too much or over explain. I’m just saying there’s a classic dynamic that is about gender.
***********************
I'm sure Xanthippe 'splained that to Socrates...
...leading him to advise young men, “By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you will be happy. If you get a bad one, you will be a philosopher.”
Looks like the standard Larry David pose.
"the special way men have of locking a woman into hearing him lecture endlessly."
"men." I call sexism.
isn't Interesting? that So MANY women, can be So BLIND to the way that some men treat other men?
And think that "It’s a male display, intended to impress the woman"
[HINT: it's a display, intended to impress]
i'd TRY to explain it to y'all... but That is Clearly contraindicated
Sometimes you just feel like letting someone go, just to see how good his act really is. It’s for the entertainment value as much as anything else.
Ann Althouse said...
Some of you don’t seem to notice the special way men have of locking a woman into hearing him lecture endlessly. It’s a male display, intended to impress the woman, and women are often part of the dynamic, wanting to display admiration or respect but quietly feeling burdened and even subordinated. When this is happening, it would be good if either or both of them found the self-awareness and will to shift to a more balanced and amusing form of conversation.
I’m not saying women never talk too much or over explain. I’m just saying there’s a classic dynamic that is about gender.
It will never not be funny when you "explain" mansplain.
Anyway, just because we don't agree doesn't mean we don't notice. We know what you are referring to.
We don't agree with your Annsplaination.
Best Althouse post since "NIG" on the PJs
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-are-letters-nig-on-childs-pajamas.html
Erlich Bachman - Mansplaining Silicon Valley
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