The man with the white hair that was beautiful or not beautiful depending on how much Trump liked his question want to know about Trump's "LIBERATE VIRGINIA" tweet that connected the protest of the lockdown to the Second Amendment. ("LIBERATE VIRGINIA, and save your great 2nd Amendment. It is under siege!")
Doesn't that "potentially pose a concern" about "civil unrest"?
Notice that the man did not say Doesn't that foment armed rebellion? — and that makes the head of white hair look beautiful. Indeed, Trump called the question "an easy one" — so we may infer that Trump "like[d] his hair."
Trump's answer to the question:
We’re entitled to a Second Amendment and [the Governor of Virginia is] trying to take... that Second Amendment right away. To me that’s liberty. When I say "Liberate Virginia," I would say "Liberate Virginia" when that kind of thing happens and where does it all stop? So I think it’s a very good analogy.... [Y]ou have them working and signing documents trying to take your Second Amendment away essentially. So I do think it’s an appropriate time to bring it up.What's the analogy? I think it's in using the idea of a state "under siege" and in need of "liberation" to describe a state that is limiting Second Amendment rights. The right to keep and bear arms is a "liberty" — he's saying — so if the state is cutting back on that liberty and you want to fight against that, you can say — in colorful language — that it's a fight to "liberate" the state.
ADDED: This morning, I heard a snippet of MSNBC on the car radio. A Michigan Congressman, Dan Kildee, was asked about the protests against the stringent restrictions. What would he would say to the people who feel that they are deprived of liberty?
I don't have the verbatim quote, but Kildee had an earnest way of presenting safety as liberty. He was not talking about gun rights, specifically, but he was using the same rhetoric that I've heard in the defense of gun control regulations. Restrictions on liberty are justified by characterizing one person's liberty as an impingement on the liberty of others. Just as gun control is presented as a protection of the people's right to be free of gun violence, Kildee presented the stay-at-home orders as a protection of the people's right to be free from the virus.
The rhetoric of liberty is available to everyone and is presumed to be what Americans want to hear. Wanting to be safe is repackaged as a love of the freedom to be found in safety.
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86 comments:
Foment beer, not war!
"if the state is cutting back on that liberty and you want to fight against that, you can say — in colorful language — that it's a fight to "liberate" the state."
Right. What's not obvious about this to anybody?
Of course, infringing on the Second Amendment makes progs proud: not letting a crisis go to waste, expanding the power of government, hurting the deplorables some more, and killing the Living Constitution (what, you thought they meant it?).
I think what's confusing is that he answered the question, and didn't use enough words.
It should lead to a civil rights protest, which the media always supports, but then we'd have to worry about looting.
At this point in the lock down there should be no dirty guns. Similarly, all snow blowers should be properly stored for the summer and all lawn mowers should be tuned up for spring.
At some point, even our sock drawers should be properly organized.
"safety as liberty"
Safety is liberty in the same way that ignorance is strength.
When Antifa fascists burn your business down and beat you up in the street - that's what the media label -> freedom and liberty!
Ann nails it. “Wanting to be safe is repackaged as a love of the freedom to be found in safety.”
This is America? Are we the descendants of the country that lost like 10% of its population in order to gain its freedom from a King? A people that were mad about taxes.
Good one Paco.
The tweets seem to have raised a lot of ire in the people who've spent the last three years calling themselves The Resistance.
Liberty is a restraint on governmental action, not a guarantee of long life and health. Kildee is Orwellian.
I feel safest when exercising my liberty via the Second Amendment.
"Wanting to be safe is repackaged as a love of the freedom to be found in safety.”
True, but not new.
Freedom from fear, freedom from want: where have I heard that before?
I wonder why they called Social Security Social Security.
Anyway, what was the gender breakdown in support for the New Deal? Would the shift to safety over liberty, packaged as liberty in safety, hence FDR's crafty appropriation of "liberalism," have happened without the 19th Amendment?
Granted, I don't think Democrats have put much value on "liberty" or "freedom" for a long time. Instead, they've gone all in on "equality", as in, "these things are equal because I say they are".
...question want[ed] to know about Trump's "LIBERATE VIRGINIA" tweet that connected the protest of the lockdown to the Second Amendment. ("LIBERATE VIRGINIA, and save your great 2nd Amendment. It is under siege!")
"Doesn't that 'potentially pose a concern' about 'civil unrest'?"
"Soy Mitt Romney y apruebo este mensaje. (“I am Mitt Romney and I approve this message.")
Libertad! "...From a friend you fucked."
“Los Estados Unidos representa libertad, oportunidad, donde todo es posible,” says Craig Romney. “Soy Craig Romney. Mi padre, Mitt Romney cree en esos valores americanos porque los ha vivido y luchará para restaurar la grandeza de nuestra nación.”
The translation:
“The United States represents liberty, opportunity, where anything is possible. I am Craig Romney. My father, Mitt Romney believes in those American values because he has lived them and will fight to restore the greatness of our nation.”
Think about how safe you would be if there were no Bill of Rights and Constitution of the United States of America.
Haven’t heard anybody ask Kildee or others what their defense of an order banning sales of seeds or paint in an otherwise open store, or how I am somehow endangered when my neighbor mows his lawn.
Somebody please tell me why such rules are not arbitrary and capricious infringement of liberty interests.
Freedom from government is a prevailing sentiment in these protests. Many Americans view government as a necessary thing to have, but in limited doses, with restraints, and clearly delineated areas of power. Interestingly, so did the country's founders.
Much of today's America gasps at such thinking and calls it things ranging from 'far-right' to fascist. Many Americans today, particularly the young, think that the Federal Government is the final say on everything and is there to take care of everything from National Security on down to protecting your feelings.
People protesting now run a range from extreme no government thinking to the actual path of limited government. In Michigan, Gov Whitmer blew past the doors of freedom and has awakened people who were 'going along' for awhile. In Virginia, the left took over the state legislature (by hook or by crook) and installed a wildly left, former KKK guy as Gov. They have also blown past the doors of being free people. In Virginia they did this months ago. I'm surprised protests there have only just begun. But you do have to figure that the entirety of Northern Virginia is employed by the Feds. They are all government employees (read: Democrats).
The protesters are exactly like the idiotic anti-vaxxers. They all need to be quarantined and re-educated.
"he who would sacrifice liberty for safety for liberty winds up with neither."
Ben Franklin
Quoting from memory.
What despicable, horrid, people these are.
John Henry
Ohhhhh, Hoooowwwaaarrrrdddd...
I am Laslo.
Although it's spelled Killdeer, it's pronounced Kildee. One of my favorite birds.
I'm finding trump to be pretty inarticulate here.
The Michigan restrictions are excessive and irrational. No seeds? No paint? But they are at least part of the COVID emergency.
But the Virginia restrictions are not restrictions at all. The governor there is signing laws that are very left wing, relating to core issues like abortion, guns, etc. He really is trying to take advantage of a chaotic situation to make lasting changes.
People are right to protest all of the above
Unfortunately I don't hear Trump addressing this all that well
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-04-18/do-testicles-make-men-more-vulnerable-to-coronavirus%3f_amp=true
I get it now. You people are protesting the social distancing requirements because you're not worried about getting the disease due to your lack of testicular fortitude.
Re the reason for banning paint and seeds:
In England the reason paint and other household and yard maintenance stuff was banned is because government worried that the subjects would be falling off ladders and otherwise injuring themselves. This would overload the hospitals.
It is a mind-bogglingly stupid reason but at least it is a reason.
Has Whitmer ever said what her reason is?
We should remember and be thankful that we are citizens, not subjects to a hereditary queen and "her majesty's governm".
We voted our officials in, they were not appointed. We can vote them out. We have an actual constitution. Somewhat tattered in the past 100 years but still there protecting us if we decide we want it to.
Thsnk God we are not England.
John Henry
Liberty is a restraint on governmental action,not a guarantee of long life and health. Kildee is Orwellian.
"Better Red than dead." Bernie Sanders said that.
When the people fear the government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson
Well, folks, those of you not from Michigan may think that Dan Kildee is just another tribune of the people, eager to defend us by taking away our rights. In fact Dan-o is royalty— Michigan Democrat royalty. His uncle, the romantically named Dale Kildee, was in Congress for 36 years representing Flint and environs. When he retired in 2013, his nephew slid right into the seat. I bet more than half the voters thought they were voting for the old man. The Kildees have distinguished themselves by having long careers without ever suffered the discipline of the profit motive. No pay cuts for them; no RIFs, no pension reductions, no worries about meeting that next payroll. Dale was a school teacher and then a state rep, then a congressman. Danny has held elective office since he was 18.
These Kildees are fine representatives of the bloodsucking classes.
Bah!
Gun violence is overwhelmingly dem violence
Kildee "inherited" the Congressional seat from his uncle.
He once said social security was the most successful social program in the history of the world. I guess he's right if you think "investing" 12.6% of your annual income with the fed govt should generate a negative rate of return on your "investment".
Wanting to be safe is repackaged as a love of the freedom to be found in safety.
The Progressives are always trying to repackage liberty.
What they’re selling is neither new nor improved.
"Safety" is not an inalienable right.
President Trump has such “ AUTHORITARIAN TENDENCIES” that he supports protesting in favor of liberty.
Social distancing is a national security issue that puts every one on the front lines. You people irresponsible behavior puts other people strangers who may not share your beliefs at risk. Of course you object because it isn't all about you it's about us and having narcissistic personality disorder by proxy prevent you from seeing us and only are concerned about I I I I I ME ME ME
An example of the conflict between "negative liberty" and "positive liberty" or "freedom from" and "freedom to" addressed by Isaiah Berlin and other thinkers.
Since "freedom" has become such a positive "halo word," all manner of restrictions and orders are redefined as enabling greater freedom.
If you fall off a ladder planting seeds then you're doing it wrong.
Reminds me of my favorite Polish joke about raking leaves.
Howard, Did you social distance during the flu previous years, will you do so from now on every flu season?
"The rhetoric of liberty" . . . as opposed to actual liberty, the thing "liberals" and other statists want to stifle. Just thought I'd clear that up.
if you don't practice better social distancing during the next flu season you're a complete and utter moron.
OT as Hell but congrats to michael k for the shout of his book at Ace of Spades sunday book club!
John Henry
Not at all, Howard.
You should stay inside your hovel until the cats dispose of what used to be your body.
That's the sort of safety I encourage you to embrace.
I don't suppose it would be constitutional to prohibit registered Democrats from keeping and bearing arms, but that would be the win-win.
Social Distancing may be flattening the curve but it may also be delaying the positive effects of herd immunity. Without a vaccine for the next 12 to 18 months, the public may be better served by carefully unwinding the governmental restrictions now in place. Protect the very old and the most medically vulnerable. Wear masks when around other people. But allow the human species to do what it does best - adapt.
Howard said...
if you don't practice better social distancing during the next flu season you're a complete and utter moron.
Mea maxima culpa.
I've not not practiced social distancing for the past 70 years and it's never been a problem.
Why should I start now?
And why only in flu season? Lots of other diseases out there, some of them more transmissible than flu. Sounds like, if you actually believe what you are saying Howard, you should practice social distancing all year round.
Have you practiced socil distancing in past flu seasons, Howard? Had you even heard or thought of it before about February?
How about GFY with your social distancing.
John Henry
Wearing masks and gloves constitutes social distancing. part of the problem is getting civilians to wear the kit properly and not cross-contaminate.
That said, if everyone wore a shity ill-fitting mask that would be extremely protective. the physics is all about stopping the emission source not protecting the receptor.
Well, I do hope you are right with your sunny optimism, John Henry.
Lots of beautiful liberation protests across our beautiful country this week.
Map at the link.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/freedom-protests-reopen-economy-planned-21-states-including-california-monday-missouri-tuesday/
Liberate America now!
John Henry
When asked about the prohibition on elective surgeries like joint replacements, but permitting abortion in MI, Witmer scoffed. "Abortion is a life sustaining service"
Good luck with that Michiganders
Not gonna answer my questions, Howard?
Why have you not been doing social distancing in past flu seasons?
Why only during flu season? Why not all year round?
John Henry
Safety is the antithesis of freedom.
Howard said...
The protesters are exactly like the idiotic anti-vaxxers. They all need to be quarantined and re-educated.
Indeed.
I was reading up on the local commentary from the tolerant ones responding to the protests in their various locations.
You get some "this is manslaughter!", but most are consistent in saying they should all be denied medical treatment and die.
I don't understand-
Why would you allow them to live for several weeks to spread the deadly Trump virus to thousands of innocent liberals?
Shouldn't we have a conversation about making them comfortable, and humanely doing what needs to be done to protect the innocent?
"if you don't practice better social distancing during the next flu season you're a complete and utter moron."
So why didn't you do it before, like in 2018 when we lost 62,000 lives? Were you a moron? It's not like the flu deaths were a secret. At the start of the flu season you will never know how bad it's going to get. The numbers will rise "exponentially", and you will need to decide on day one if you are going to leave the house for 3 months or not. It's the only way to be sure.
Safety is whatever you get when you are free to protect yourself. Waiting for the government to deliver safety as an affirmative service, and sacrificing your freedom to get it, is a bad bargain. The government doesn’t care about your safety and it sees your freedom as a problem.
I agree, Owen- without liberty, nothing is safe.
When asked about the prohibition on elective surgeries like joint replacements, but permitting abortion in MI, Witmer scoffed. "Abortion is a life sustaining service"
Good luck with that Michiganders
Her first words were "That's ridiculous"...as in ridiculous to compare the two. It's her go-to response when she gets asked a tough questions.
During the debate while running for Governor she was asked if there was any truth to the rumor she wanted a 24 cent/gallon tax increase on gasoline. She let out a Hillary like cackle and said "That's ridiculous!".
Little did we know it was indeed ridiculous--she demanded a 45 cent/gallon tax increase after she won the election.
Howard said...
The protesters are exactly like the idiotic anti-vaxxers. They all need to be quarantined and re-educated.
I know this is 100% snark. Meant only to inflame. But like most trolls, too stupid to understand who is in power to detain(Jail) and re-educate, with the "proper" values.
Howard needs to go on a helicopter ride.
"Without liberty, man is a syncope."
'Man' is a what?
Progressive "liberty" : You are free to obey.
https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=5612
Syncope: Partial or complete loss of consciousness with interruption of awareness of oneself and one's surroundings. When the loss of consciousness is temporary and there is spontaneous recovery, it is referred to as syncope or, in nonmedical quarters, fainting.Syncope is due to a temporary reduction in blood flow and therefore a shortage of oxygen to the brain.
John Henry
"If you fall off a ladder planting seeds then you're doing it wrong."
Hey, I read this method in Bloomberg- it has to be the correct way.
Sweden is going to look prescient and smart by next Winter- the rest of the world not so much.
The pro-lockdown people are going to have to explain why this isn't the policy for every flu season going forward since you can save 30-60K lives every year by doing this.
"The pro-lockdown people are going to have to explain why this isn't the policy for every flu season going forward..."
Don't be giving those people ideas, Yancey.
Paco Wové said...
"safety as liberty"
Safety is liberty in the same way that ignorance is strength.
FTW.
Howard:
I may be mangling the quote, but it goes something like this: "Those who prefer security to liberty will end up with neither."
I trust you advocate a 10 mph national speed limit, with draconian enforcement.
Anything faster than that puts everyone at risk. To the tune of 30,000 some odd lives per year.
Happy Anniversary!!
The first shots were fired just after dawn in Lexington, Massachusetts
the morning of April 19th,
the "Shot Heard Round the World.". The colonial militia, a band of 500 men, were outnumbered and initially forced to retreat. The British army was able to press forward to Concord, where they searched for the supplies,...
By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
Their flag to April's breeze unfurled,
Here once the embattled farmers stood,
And fired the shot heard round the world.
The foe long since in silence slept;
Alike the conqueror silent sleeps;
And Time the ruined bridge has swept
Down the dark stream which seaward creeps.
On this green bank, by this soft stream,
We set to-day a votive stone;
That memory may their deed redeem,
When, like our sires, our sons are gone.
Spirit, that made those heroes dare
To die, and leave their children free,
Bid Time and Nature gently spare
The shaft we raise to them and thee.
Again, instead of just asking Trump "Why did you writer LIberate VA?", we get the question framed like a DNC talking point: "Some people say this is an incitement to rebellion..?" and a gotcha question: "You support X, but now you say Y which seems to contradict it, defend yourself!"
Questions for Dems are never posed this way.
There's no reason to keep gun stores closed and liquor stores open. None.
Whatever happened to all those "This is a gun-free home!" placards that liberals use to pass out at their rallies?
Mencken had to be talking about Northern Virginia when he said
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
All this framing of the choice between freedom and “saving lives.” And then the counterfactuals of saving X lives by sacrificing Y freedoms.
Newsflash #1: it’s speculative so let’s not get too stuck on it.
Newsflash #2: we aren’t “saving lives,” we’re just “delaying death.” The Progs want to sentimentalize the debate so they can take more decisions away from each of us, and so they browbeat us with cases of 88-year-olds who will be SAVED by a lockdown that would make Stalin envious. No, we won’t SAVE that person; actuarially speaking he or she is already in triple overtime and if “saving” him or her to die in a month or six from diabetes or heart failure is achieved by bankrupting his or her children and grandchildren, it’s a terrible trade-off.
As was famously said by Ursula the Sea Witch in “The Little Mermaid,” “Life’s full of tough choices.” And they don’t get easier by surrendering to strangers your ability to make them.
Seeing all those 6 foot apart taped x's on the floor everywhere, I got to wondering how it was determined that's the correct distance for safety. I mean, since we're repeatedly reminded that this virus is new and not well understood, how is it that "6 feet" is known to be true? Why not 5? Or 7? Or 20?
Here's what I think: Ordinarily, people in line tend to stand somewhere between 2 to 4 feet apart ('round these parts anyway, don't know what it's like where you are). Mandating a five foot distance wouldn't really seem all that different but six feet is noticeable and anything much farther than that is unworkable in many situations. So- in order to present the appearance that we're "Doing Something", six feet it is.
I'm willing to be convinced otherwise- what have you got?
I can stay home, put up a sign saying leave me alone, and I don’t have to open the door to anyone. In other words, no one has to be under lockdown for me to be “free of the virus.” So, however well sounding the congressman may have been, and he’d need to be because his argument is ridiculous, the argument is still ridiculous. There is no justification in locking down people so that others can be “free of the virus” - they can isolate themselves voluntarily without depriving anyone of their rights.
Again - according to Jay Inslee - we're being insubordinate if we fail to adhere to his dictates.
Tick. Tock.
“The protesters are exactly like the idiotic anti-vaxxers. They all need to be quarantined and re-educated.”
Yes, those are the idiots who end up getting an education in the ERs of America, struggling to breath and overburdening the healthcare system. Hopefully they survive their re-education.
“Sweden is going to look prescient and smart by next Winter- the rest of the world not so much.”
Wasn’t it you who predicted there wouldn’t be any more deaths than around 7,500 total in the US?
There's no reason to keep gun stores closed and liquor stores open. None.
Here in Nevada gun stores are open and liquor stores closed. Go figure.
"So- in order to present the appearance that we're "Doing Something", six feet it is."
You're overthinking this. They just made up a number. They're not scientists, they're government scientists.
Yes, those are the idiots who end up getting an education in the ERs of America, struggling to breath and overburdening the healthcare system. Hopefully they survive their re-education.
And this is precisely where you're full of shit.
We've been dealing with this virus out here since the end of January, all through February and halfway through March before Inslee shut everything down.
If your dream scenario of having a bunch of stupid deplorables suffer in the ERs and overload the system were to come true? It would've already happened.
Althouse's behavior and evolution during this whole thing has been a demonstration of the fundamental correctness of rhardin's take on women.
Give their unserious concerns too much weight and it can destroy a civilization.
Oh well.
" Just as gun control is presented as a protection of the people's right to be free of gun violence, ". Except, of course , that isn't the case, nor has it ever been anywhere. Inevitably the violence is perpetrated against those whose "safety' and "protection" was to be freed from violence. The violence is perpetrated by the government, their agents ,or those who chose and choose to disregard those laws. We see it everyday now in those bastions of safety led by lib mayors or governors whom promised safety and ,in the end, lied. That's been the result through out history. So it will be with all of the lock downs. And no one, no politician or bureaucrat will suffer any consequence. Hell, they don't now. Has any governor ,mayor, bureaucrat had their paycheck stopped ? Nope. Ultimately , quite frankly, they don't give fuck because there is no cost to them. For all of those who support these bullshit policies, that's what they are after all, should hope fervently that the plebes don't decide to take out their frustrations on your collective hides. Literally. Because if they do, your pompous bullshit laws will be irrelevant.
Althouse can defend herself. She has a point of view.
She’s the one who projected 11 million deaths from this because of something she read somewhere. No one else here did.
But no one knew then and no one knows now what is going to happen here. If we went by past performance (polio, tuberculosis, HIV, ebola,etc.) in the modern medical era, you would have predicted that we would have to live with this for a while as effective treatments were developed.
Instead, in a fit of hysteria and mass delusion, we put our lives and our economic well-being into the hands of politicians like Gavin Newsom, Andrew Cuomo, Gretchen Whitmer, JB Pritzker, Lori Haircuts, Mike Dewine, and, yes, Donald Trump. They used the advice of public health officials as cover for “doing something”. Well, they did something, all right.
Now we have not only plague, we have chaos and destruction of wealth. We need to get back to normal activity asap.
"You're overthinking this. They just made up a number."
I agree it's made up. I guess my point is that the made-up number had to be high enough that people would notice and low enough they wouldn't say "Fuck that shit" and ignore it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
-Samuel Adams
Having been accused by a jerk on another thread, I spent some time looking for the number of confirmed corona virus deaths.
New York City, for instance, recently announced it was reclassifying more than 3,700 deaths that were suspected of having covid-19 but never tested. New York state reports confirmed deaths. The official death count is almost certainly an undercount, many researchers say.
I found this and a vague list of criteria for diagnosis on the CDC web site.
2. As of April 14, 2020, CDC case counts and death counts include both confirmed and probable cases and deaths. This change was made to reflect an interim COVID-19 position statementpdf iconexternal icon issued by the Council for State and Territorial Epidemiologists on April 5, 2020. The position statement included a case definition and made COVID-19 a nationally notifiable disease.
A confirmed case or death is defined by meeting confirmatory laboratory evidence for COVID-19. A probable case or death is defined by i) meeting clinical criteria AND epidemiologic evidence with no confirmatory laboratory testing performed for COVID-19; or ii) meeting presumptive laboratory evidence AND either clinical criteria OR epidemiologic evidence; or iii) meeting vital records criteria with no confirmatory laboratory testing performed for COVID19.
I can't figure out how we are going to get an honest total. I agree it will probably be between 20,000 and 30,000 but doubt we will know for some time, if ever. There are too many reasons to exaggerate this. We are all seeing these trolls come by, for some reason two are from Canada, and predicting a million deaths or requiring a million hospital beds.
>>I guess my point is that the made-up number had to be high enough that people would notice and low enough they wouldn't say "Fuck that shit" and ignore it.
I see we have a leaker here at The Department of Pulling Numbers Out of Our Ass...
Remember, this thing could kill 11 million people. And when I say 11 million, I mean 250,000. Or in other words, approximately 60,000.
So stop revealing state secrets, and get on with doing exactly as your government orders you to. It's the only way to preserve your freedom.
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